Thursday Caps Clips: Caps @ Jets Game Day
by EmilyB on Nov 17, 2011 7:09 AM EST
in Caps Clips
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PrintYour savory breakfast links:
- Previews of tonight's waltz in Winnipeg from Vogs, NHL.com, Peerless, RMNB, and CRtC, and be sure to check out our SB Nation partner, Arctic Ice Hockey, for more coverage from the other side of tonight's match-up.
- Haven't we been here before? Some looks back at the good ol' days in the 'Peg. [Dump 'n Chase, Capitals Voice, Caps365 (video), WaPo, KOL]
- Notes and assorted whatnot from yesterday's practice:
- A few leftovers from Caps-Preds:
- Joel Ward got a real nice reception on his return to Nashville. [WashTimes]
- The lead that got away. [WashTimes (one, two, three)]
- Shea Weber and Ryan Suter ? Yeah. [WashTimes]
- Two costly plays. [WaPo]
- If you read only one article about Alex Ovechkin today, make it this one... [WashTimes]
- ...but if you're going to read two, here you go. [Alex Ovetjkin]
- Bruce Boudreau did his weekly hit on LaVar and Dukes... [106.7 The Fan (audio)]
- ... and Joe Beninati talks Caps with RLD. [RLD Hockey]
- Troy Brouwer is like good and stuff. [Red Light District]
- Mattias Sjogren will stay with the Hershey Bears for now and await his callup. [WashTimes]
- Finally, happy 56th birthday to Dennis Maruk and happy 62nd to Gord Smith.
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Obilgatory image of the day
You tried your best and failed miserably. The lesson is "Never Try."
by apk3000 on Nov 17, 2011 7:27 AM EST reply actions 6 recs
I’m just glad that this time tomorrow morning Whyno can hopefully stop crying about it.
"My favorite fan base in D.C. Is United's. Period. The end." - Steinberg
Keep United in DC. A Fair Deal at RFK, and a Pathway to a Stadium for a team loyal to the city.
by Bald Pollack on Nov 17, 2011 7:41 AM EST up reply actions
…which Whyno said his employer may not be sending him on. This first one was the only for sure one.
LET'S GO CAPS!!!
Gotcha (potentially) our loss on that.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
relevant
kinda…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLlsjEP7L-k
If you want to survive out here, you've got to know where your towel is.
by ns on Nov 17, 2011 8:36 AM EST up reply actions
I was reading up on Johnny Oduya and hadn’t realized he was drafted by the Caps. A couple of the articles indicated that he was “dismissed” by the team. That seems to carry a negative connotation and I wondered if it was just an unfortunate word choice or there is something more to it.
An admirer noted: "I think it's safe to say that your mustache has experienced more than an ordinary man's entire body".
by Acer Jonesy's Laughker on Nov 17, 2011 8:06 AM EST reply actions
What do you mean he was dismissed?
My recollection is that he was playing over in SWE after being drafted and the Caps simply never signed him (guess they didn’t see enough development between when they drafted him and when they’d need to sign him to retain his rights). There may be more “there” there than I’m recalling, though.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Their words, not mine.
From Legends of Hockey:
“A year after he was dismissed by the Washington Capitals, the New Jersey Devils opted to sign the free agent who was expected to start with the club’s AHL affiliate.”
An admirer noted: "I think it's safe to say that your mustache has experienced more than an ordinary man's entire body".
by Acer Jonesy's Laughker on Nov 17, 2011 8:25 AM EST up reply actions
(I was kidding… click what I linked to.)
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I did. (Read before Posting rule in effect). Guess I missed the kid. Anyway, apparently nothing nefarious there; return to your homes, everyone.
An admirer noted: "I think it's safe to say that your mustache has experienced more than an ordinary man's entire body".
by Acer Jonesy's Laughker on Nov 17, 2011 8:36 AM EST up reply actions
Clips are now fully operational – hit refresh and enjoy.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Now witness the literary power of this fully armed and operational clips thread.
"A picture is worth a thousand words. For moving pictures we manage to shorten it to one or two."
by Dimagus on Nov 17, 2011 8:19 AM EST up reply actions 11 recs
Star Wars Reference = Rec.
Help me Ovi-Wan…
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
Simply sensational.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
From the Ovechkin article...
Most defensemen have been able to thwart Ovechkin by stepping into his path. In some cases, that defender gets support from someone who backchecks to cut down his space.
I know this sounds simpler than it actually is, but why isn’t another Cap streaking right by Ovi when he enters the zone and crossing over to the left wing to take advantage of the D collapsing onto Ovi every time. If the answer is Ovi is usually the first out of the d-zone with the puck, or simply rushes up the ice ahead of every teammate, why isn’t he slowing down and waiting for better #s?
But Ovechkin has not developed a backhand move that forces defensemen to hesitate when defending him in such situations. It hasn’t helped that he has hit the net on only 44.6 percent of shots
Do we think this is this really true? I find it hard to believe Ovi does not have this in his repertoire.
If you want to survive out here, you've got to know where your towel is.
Do we think this is this really true? I find it hard to believe Ovi does not have this in his repertoire.
Believe it. But it’s worth noting the primary reason why he doesn’t have a backhand move – the insane curve of his stick makes it much more difficult.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Might be high time that curve gets adjusted then. Not sure how plausible this is for a player like Ovi to adjust to a new curve this far into his career, though.
If you want to survive out here, you've got to know where your towel is.
by ns on Nov 17, 2011 8:29 AM EST up reply actions
It’s plausible but unlikely. NHL players are creatures of habit, they don’t like to change things unless they absolutely have to (look at Green and his sticks, or AO for that matter). I’m sure a player could get re-adjusted to a new curve in one off-season, but there isn’t usually any reason to. The style they’ve been using has gotten them this far…
Please, call me F&B.
The style they’ve been using has gotten them this far…
Michael Jordan developed a jump shot…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Players that come to be known as the best ever usually do things to constantly improve and adjust their game.
Please, call me F&B.
They sure do – it’s usually the difference between being the best and being the best ever.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I believe there’s some kind of anecdote involving Crosby and faceoffs here…
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 9:01 AM EST up reply actions
It doesn’t always happen instantly though, or without some adversity in between.
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 9:01 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Jordan chafes at the role Collins wants him to play as team leader off the court, the guy who watches over Chicago’s younger players, like Grant, and forwards Scottie Pippen and Brad Sellers. Although Jordan isn’t a carouser, he feels uncomfortable on the pulpit—he would prefer to be “one of the guys,” his celebrityhood notwithstanding—and he likes to lead by example. “It’s hard for me,” he says. “I can tell guys, ‘Look, you need your rest,’ but that’s all I can do. If they don’t listen, they don’t listen.”
And, finally, Jordan wrestles almost daily with what is known in Chicago as the Ernie Banks Syndrome. He worries that he will end up like the former Chicago Cub, who played Hall of Fame baseball for 19 seasons but never won a championship.
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
Although Jordan isn’t a carouser
OT and all, but I’ve gotta call bullshit on that one.
Good find, though.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
To bring it back on topic — what was the one major change in the Bulls before Jordan’s first championship? Or, more to the point, who?…
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Dunno. Phil? MJ learning how to shoot rather than just dunking? Some rando white shooting guard?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I was going for “coaching change.” Bulls went from a teacher to a tactician.
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
That’s where I figured you were going. Who was there before Phil? Collins? (Not that it matters – I know zippy about hoops other than that Phil was/is brilliant.)
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Collins. Good, solid, old-school coach and teacher. Great for taking a young team up to “respectable.” Not the right guy to take them up to “champions.”
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Sounds familiar.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2011 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
Funny, that’s pretty much what we said about Hanlon.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Who was there before Phil? Collins?
That was the genesis of the Bulls’ dynasty.
"Hockey is my life, wine is my passion." -- Igor Larionov
by Scott in Shaw on Nov 17, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Huh?
I feel like I’m living in a land of confusion.
Reporter: "What’s your Mom’s birthday?"
Tortorella: "I have no idea."
by Wheeler on Nov 17, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
They were set once they found their Shoo-Shoo-Shooting Guard.
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by J.P. on Nov 17, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
His touch pass was almost invisible.
Comrades, leave me here a little, while as yet 't is early morn:
Leave me here, and when you want me, sound upon the bugle-horn
That’s where I figured you were going. Who was there before Phil? Collins?
Peter Gabriel.
by RCheli on Nov 17, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There are two guys who sit about 2 sections or so the right of me in the front row who shout “Peter Gabriel” when the clock hits 10:00 in the second period… no idea why.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
That may actually be their page…
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
In fact, I bet it is them.. on the page notice which team is playing Montreal in the Wall photo.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Speaking of champtionships, Jordan never won one without Scottie Pippen as a teammate. No one — not even Michael Jordan — does it alone.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Nov 17, 2011 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
Gretz never won without Messier.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
You can’t conclusively prove that there weren’t aliens at the first Thanksgiving.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 17, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
protect the stuffing mines!
Pledge Drive 2011-2012: CARSON KOLZIG FOUNDATION! Season Pledge total--$403.25!
Backstrom without Green
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
And he didn’t win either of ’em all by himself, either.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
No, but the first he was the man and didn’t really have the matched pair.
For the second, he had Leetch, who I think is one of the most underrated players of the 90s.
Mess was definitely the man on that Edmonton team, though there were still some leftovers from pretty great teams. And they were by no means a great regular season team. Ranford got hot, Craig Simpson played out of his mind, and… boom. Cup.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
That was such a strange playoffs (and it was 22 years ago — holy shit!). You’re right about Ranford and Simpson (his only real shining moment in an otherwise soft career), and Kurri was playing his last year with the Oilers.
I agree with you that you need at least two superstars to win a Cup. I think that the Caps have two (or more).
Too bad Vinny Lecavalier’s the Michael Jordan of hockey, or Ovi could work towards that title.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 17, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
___
Further to the point, found this on teh Interwebz:
Contra, for example:
or:
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by J.P. on Nov 17, 2011 8:30 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Wonder if anyone will call him on it. Saw a penalty assessed for illegal stick length last year. The refs measured it on the ice….
After watching Washington Capitals left wing Alex Ovechkin beat him with four shots through two games of the Eastern Conference quarterfinal series, Penguins goalie Marc-Andre Fleury said Tuesday he would not be surprised if Ovechkin plays with an illegally curved stick blade.
"I haven’t taken a look at it," Fleury said. "The puck sometimes sticks to it pretty good, even if it’s bouncing."
The NHL does not allow for a blade curve of more than three-quarters of an inch.
Ovechkin, who has scored 50 goals in a season three times, has never been caught using an illegal stick during a game. Former New York Rangers coach Tom Renney once challenged a blade used by Ovechkin, but officials determined it was legal.
Penguins defenseman Sergei Gonchar said he could not advise coach Dan Bylsma to request an in-game measurement of Ovechkin’s blade. A successful challenge would give the Penguins a power play, but they would be penalized if the blade proved legal.
"To be honest, I’ve never checked it out," said Gonchar, who is a friend of Ovechkin’s. "Next time I’m with him, I will."
(Sidenote: I’m pretty sure I know which reporter filed that report… yet the WashTimes scrubbed everyone’s name from their work when they rebooted?)
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
That story was also with the Pens down 0-2 in the series, so at the time you could have also called it whining. (Shuddering to use that term given the end result, but that’s how I remember it.)
Don’t try to figure Sasha out. Just ride the wave.
Let’s go with “grasping” and move along…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
And to tie it into today’s clips, I started to type “whyning”. #BlameWhyno
Don’t try to figure Sasha out. Just ride the wave.
by gfcaps fan on Nov 17, 2011 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If you call for a stick measurement, you need to be 100% certain. If a team asks for a measurement and the stick is found to be legal, then the team asking for the measurement is assessed a bench minor for delay of game.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
The majority of sticks in the NHL likely have illegal curves/toes — no one really calls anyone else out on it because there seems to be a gentleman’s agreement (note: does not apply to Ron Wilson) to not ask for sticks to be measured.
Comrades, leave me here a little, while as yet 't is early morn:
Leave me here, and when you want me, sound upon the bugle-horn
I remember the Caps doing it to Jagr at the beginning of OT in a game against the Rangers… But then, Jagr doesn’t qualify as a gentlemen.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
Interesting. Thanks for that. I wonder how curved Semin’s stick is, as he seems to have a much more effective backhand than his countryman.
Can’t bff Sasha give him some lessons?
If you want to survive out here, you've got to know where your towel is.
by ns on Nov 17, 2011 8:34 AM EST up reply actions
Not sure Semin’s isn’t almost as bad.
You can Google image search this stuff and find tons on it.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Researchers at Bauer working on the next advance in the Ovechkin series...
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Nov 17, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Not sure if that’s still the case, base on his success the last couple of years on the shootout (where he’s used the backhand a few times) and this beauty .
"You can want to get to April but when you get to April you may not like the answers you get, so you might as well enjoy the ride while it's going on." - Brian McNally on JRR, 8/29/2011
No reason to think he might not have a shootout stick that allows him to do more, is there? I mean, he doesn’t need the banana curve to whip shots in the shootout, so it’d make sense.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
That pic you posted is over 3 years ago, when he was still struggling with the SO/PK, but you’re probably right that he uses a different stick for the shootout.
"You can want to get to April but when you get to April you may not like the answers you get, so you might as well enjoy the ride while it's going on." - Brian McNally on JRR, 8/29/2011
Yeah, it was a quick search and not meant to necessarily represent the curve he’ll use tonight, more to show what he’s used in the past and part of the reason he’s never developed much of a backhand.
Withdrawn, your honor.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
@Aportzline just told an awesome Filatov story on Twitter:
True story about Filatov, was just given clearance to share: One of his many previous coaches calls him into room with video guy for one-on-one film work, to show him instance where they want him to crash the net and get to rebounds, create scoring chances. After four or five clips, Filatov steps back from the monitor, looks at the coaches and says, flatly: “Filly don’t do rebounds.”
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by J.P. on Nov 17, 2011 8:47 AM EST reply actions 8 recs
aaaand Filly don’t play in NHL.
If you want to survive out here, you've got to know where your towel is.
by ns on Nov 17, 2011 8:50 AM EST up reply actions
Filly is a….well, “filly,” ain’t he?
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Nov 17, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Luckily that doesn’t play into any stereotypes about skilled Russians…
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Don Cherry could get drunk off that quote.
But on the other hand, Filly and Sasha could play some beautiful perimeter hockey.
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
What, you mean he’s not drunk already?
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
Well, I just laughed out loud in class. Way to get me in trouble :P
I honestly cannot understand why he would react that way… What the hell kind of goal scorer doesn’t want to score more goals?
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 8:57 AM EST up reply actions
I can’t figure out what the bigger problem is with this. It should be that he refuses to take instruction from coaches and crash the net. But for some reason the fact that he calls himself “Filly” is more upsetting. Hopefully some opponent reads this and starts calling him “little Filly” on the ice.
Also, Volchinator on line one.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 8:59 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Defiant third person references are the stuff of legend. See also Volchkov, Alexandre. Or Murphy, Joe.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
A Joe Murphy mention in today’s clips… sheesh.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
_______
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 9:14 AM EST up reply actions 12 recs
We can laugh because there’s no one like that on our team…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 17, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
At least we got rid of Bruces favorite ginger.
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
17 points in 17 games, +13.
We couldn’t have been wrong about him, could we?
We're Hüsker Dü and we're on MTV. Who are you, and what are you on?
by bilspacecadet on Nov 17, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
He’s definitely getting more minutes and PP time I’d assume. He didn’t have much trouble producing during the regular season here, he just wasn’t the responsible player we needed come postseason all the time.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Nov 17, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
We couldn’t have been wrong about him, could we?
No. I don’t think anyone around here doubted his ability to put up respectable-to-good regular season numbers.
Now, if he drops 17-for-17/+13 in the playoffs, I’ll admit to having been deadfuckingwrong about him.
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by J.P. on Nov 17, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Quite fortuitous for you, as Florida ain’t making the playoffs during the length of his contract.
We're Hüsker Dü and we're on MTV. Who are you, and what are you on?
by bilspacecadet on Nov 17, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe, maybe not. But it was always my contention with him and I don’t see his current performance (and I’d even add his healthy time in COL to it) as remarkable.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Really? I thought you didn’t like his overall game, not just his playoff game—I thought it was the lack of physicality (even in the regular season) that drove you crazy.
And, obviously, my original comment was 51% snark. I don’t believe we’ll see end of the year numbers anywhere near 30-50-80 +40 or anything like that.
We're Hüsker Dü and we're on MTV. Who are you, and what are you on?
by bilspacecadet on Nov 17, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
Well, the lack of physicality in the regular season is the reason I didn’t like his game for the playoffs… not sure how one would separate the two. I don’t think I ever really doubted his ability to be productive in the regular season in the right situation.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Right, which is my point—your comment about “it was always my contention with him” I read as “he didn’t deliver in the playoffs.”
Whereas I thought you weren’t fond of his overall game, not just his playoff results. I agree, you can’t really separate the two.
I suspect I misunderstood your initial response.
We're Hüsker Dü and we're on MTV. Who are you, and what are you on?
by bilspacecadet on Nov 17, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
You really think that? They are a very much improved team this season, and could easily slip into the 8th spot in the east.
I think TB and Boston will recover—I could see them sneaking in, but not “easily.”
We're Hüsker Dü and we're on MTV. Who are you, and what are you on?
by bilspacecadet on Nov 17, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
The problem with Tampa is that they have no depth and no goaltending. While you don’t need to spend $7M on a guy (see below), you do need an upgrade over an aging quickly Dwayne Roloson.
Are you sold on Buffalo? Toronto? Montreal? I’m not.
Tampa has enough depth. Last season their possession dominance was more-or-less on the back of their great bottom-6, and while they lost a few of those guys, they retained some of them. Top-4 D when healthy are more than competent. Barring a goalie disaster, they’ll make the playoffs.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I think we’re splitting hairs over the meaning of “easily.” Sure, Florida could make it—I think there’s less than a 50% chance they will. Whatever. Time will tell.
The bigger issue is, I don’t think anybody here sees them playing 17 games in the playoffs this year or the next. And thus, I was able to tweak JP. Which is why were all here, really.
We're Hüsker Dü and we're on MTV. Who are you, and what are you on?
by bilspacecadet on Nov 17, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Fundamentally, I don’t think any 8 seed “easily” makes the playoffs. 7-10 are likely to be a dogfight for the last month of the season, just like every year.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think you misunderstand my use of easily. It was modifying “could”, which is not a very strong word. If I had said “they will easily make it as the eighth seed” you have a point.
What I meant was that there is a cluster of teams fighting for the last couple of spots, and I don’t see anything out of Florida right now that makes me think they won’t be one of those teams.
roger that
We're Hüsker Dü and we're on MTV. Who are you, and what are you on?
by bilspacecadet on Nov 17, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
That would require that his team make the playoffs…. the last time that happened Bill Clinton was President.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
We couldn’t have been wrong about him, could we?
Let’s just say I’m skeptical (check out that PDO column).
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
Via Arctic Ice Hockey, Jets likely lineup:
Forwards
#9 Evander Kane — #18 Bryan Little — #8 Alexander Burmistrov
#16 Andrew Ladd — #80 Nik Antropov — #13 Kyle Wellwood
#15 Tanner Glass — #19 Jim Slater — #22 Chris Thorburn
#41 Jason Jaffray — #14 Tim Stapleton — #26 Blake Wheeler
Defencemen
#29 Johnny Oduya — #39 Dustin Byfuglien
#5 Mark Stuart — #4 Zach Bogosian
#44 Arturs Kulda — #36 Mark Flood
Goaltender
#50 Chris Mason
That’s simply not a lineup the Caps should lose to.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I’m confident…that we’ll soon be reading articles about how Mark Flood is the new Ovechkin shut-down guy.
by Kolzilla on Nov 17, 2011 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
“I moved Ovi to defense to get him away from Kulda and Flood.”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 17, 2011 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
I bet 25,000 on the Capitals winning tonight.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
I bet a billion dollars.
Signed,
Eddie
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Nov 17, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The writer of that preview (“Canadian Texan”) seems to think Semin has an inflated ego. Semin’s got issues, but I wouldn’t consider ego to be one of them; especially considering the other Alex that’s in the room with him.
"You can want to get to April but when you get to April you may not like the answers you get, so you might as well enjoy the ride while it's going on." - Brian McNally on JRR, 8/29/2011
Probably comes from the “Crosby’s not that special” comment years ago. Semin knows he’s talented, but doesn’t seem to have an oversized ego. Though really, with how he talks, how would we know? He’s not exactly as extroverted as Avery.
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
And to tie it to the Filly story, at least he hasn’t talked in third person.
"You can want to get to April but when you get to April you may not like the answers you get, so you might as well enjoy the ride while it's going on." - Brian McNally on JRR, 8/29/2011
“Sasha don’t stand in the paint. It might get on his shoes.”
Are you not entertained?
by Seminrocks on Nov 17, 2011 9:28 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
There are some players on this roster I’d love to have, but not many. Kane certainly, and it’s no secret here that I’m a Bogo fan, but in reality, this team has their best player (Enstrom) on the shelf, and their forwards… well how many of them make the Caps top 6? One at most (again Kane).
How does this team win any games?
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
How does a team as talent stacked as the Caps lose any? It’s all about who shows up and works hard.
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
Well, some nights the roster differential is enough so that the team that shows up and works hard doesn’t necessarily win… and that’s part of the problem, since it doesn’t work that way starting in Game 83.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Know who else loves Burmistrov? Schultz haters.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 17, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Individually maybe… but no way all three play ahead of any of Ovechkin, Backstrom, Brouwer, Laich (if on the second line) and Semin.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
Ladd and Burmistrov are both really good players. A guy like Ladd would fit in really well on the Caps.
by RCheli on Nov 17, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think all three would but Antropov has a bit of latent case of Sashitis. I’d trade Semin in a heartbeat for Burmistrov even though he’s highly unproven. That kid is going places once he finds his place which probably isn’t going to be with the Jets.
Comrades, leave me here a little, while as yet 't is early morn:
Leave me here, and when you want me, sound upon the bugle-horn
Tim Stapleton is Atlanta’s version of Mathieu Perreault (undersized forward with a lot of skill). That fourth line actually kind of reminds me of the Caps’ fourth line, with Jason Jaffray playing the part of Hendricks/Halpern and Wheeler playing the part of Knuble.
Reporter: "What’s your Mom’s birthday?"
Tortorella: "I have no idea."
OK, position-by-position, is there anywhere among those 19 where Atlanta > Washington?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Depending on which side Ovechkin’s playing tonight, Burmistrov or Kane could be considered better than Brouwer. But it’s close. Antropov is probably a better center now than Johansson, but worse than Laich, and Johansson’s definitely better than Slater.
Reporter: "What’s your Mom’s birthday?"
Tortorella: "I have no idea."
I agree on the top line wing part, but I’d rather have MoJo than Antropov. Simply do not like Antropov. I think Big Buff is probably an advantage for WPG when Green is out of the lineup for the Caps, certainly the way Carlson has been playing of late he is.
Please, call me F&B.
Kane > Brouwer I’ll give you. Brouwer > Burmistrov (though that’s somewhat situational – Brouwer’s a better fit on that Caps line than Burmistrov would be, and having a skill guy like Burmistrov works better for that WPG line than Brouwer would).
I can’t get behind Antro > MoJo.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
That and Kane has a better idea of who to punch.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Obligatory....
"You can want to get to April but when you get to April you may not like the answers you get, so you might as well enjoy the ride while it's going on." - Brian McNally on JRR, 8/29/2011
by bagace on Nov 17, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 15 recs
Just in case anyone forgot...
…the Caps last visit to Winnipeg:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/199512100WIN.html
Posted not only because it’s historical information, but also because the Caps blasted the Jets 6-1…
Remember the roar? Well, there wasn’t much that night.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
Some interesting things in there. Alexi Zhamnov getting 15 PIMs, and check out who suited up for the Jets in that game on the back line (Jason Doig? DOIG?)
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
if only our Russian star was so candid…
http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2011/11/struggling_red_wing_pavel_dats.html
"But this is what I know, whether you’re 16, 18, 25, 30 or 40, if you think about scoring, you don’t score. If you do things good, good things happen. So work hard, be good defensively, go to the net, it’ll go your way."
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Money. Proving again why Dats is my favorite current NHL player.
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Associate Editor at Five For Howling.
by Carl Putnam on Nov 17, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
“I know George McPhee is trolling around looing [sic] for defense right now — both in the NHL and in the minors.” – Brett Haber
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That’s usually all the indication that we get that a trade in eminent. On the other hand, if it’s in the minors too it’s probably only precautionary and nothing too big.
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
Or it could have already happened (see Kundratek, Tomas).
Actually, there are probably a few NHL-level guys out there who might be available now, or could become available at the deadline. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the aforementioned Oduya being available now (though, of course, cap concerns would really prevent the Caps from taking on his salary).
Reporter: "What’s your Mom’s birthday?"
Tortorella: "I have no idea."
Eh, I’d presume he’d be doing that regardless of what Haber says (looking at the last two November/Decembers alone).
"My favorite fan base in D.C. Is United's. Period. The end." - Steinberg
Keep United in DC. A Fair Deal at RFK, and a Pathway to a Stadium for a team loyal to the city.
by Bald Pollack on Nov 17, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed. Just info. And I happen to like Habes, fwiw.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I guess. I mean, when he came back from Bristol and did radio first, he seemed to reek of “I worked at ESPN!” for awhile in word and intent. But it’s hard for me to be enamored with a local sports guy that only gets 4 minutes or so these days and spends the first 3 at Ashburn.
"My favorite fan base in D.C. Is United's. Period. The end." - Steinberg
Keep United in DC. A Fair Deal at RFK, and a Pathway to a Stadium for a team loyal to the city.
by Bald Pollack on Nov 17, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
He’s not even a local sports guy any more, really – he’s a Tennis Channel guy now. Obviously still plugged in, but he’s ditched the (relatively worthless, IMO) local news sports anchor gig.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Not intending to be a wiseass, but what GM isn’t, besides Poile and Chiarelli? I mean, in theory.
by S h a g g y on Nov 17, 2011 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
Dunno. But having a media member confirm it takes it from “in theory” to “in fact” (assuming he’s credible, which I suppose is in the eye of the reader).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Buy or sell:
Boudreau has not done enough in getting his forwards (primarily his captain) to take care of their own zone, will never be able to, and this will lead to his demise in DC.
I am a tentative buyer of this. It is disheartening to see how many games have been lost 3rd period because of irresponsibility, blown assignments, and bad line changes.
I was hoping Ovi would see the Yzerman light…but he’s clealry in denial.
They were 4th best in the league in goals against last year. You can’t do that without forward buy-in.
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
Like most everything else around here it seems, they know what to do and even how to do it and when they’re committed to it, unsurprisingly, it works. It’s a question of focus and effort.
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True. I know it’s a small sample size, but I don’t recall this group losing these close battles in the 3rd period. I would think focus and effort would be hallmarks, not areas of concern.
I
by S h a g g y on Nov 17, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Speaking of trades, and let us speak of them, why hasn’t Nabokov moved? The general theory is that Garth Snow’s asking price is too high (a second round pick, and Chris Botta offered on MvsW on Tuesday that you might even be able to pry him away from Garth Snow with a third-rounder), but he’s a quality goaltender on a bargain-basement contract, and really, what do you get for a second-round pick at the deadline? You get twenty-five games from guys like Andy Sutton, Dominic Moore, Eric Belanger, etc. – talented and important players, but they’re not game-breakers in the same way bad goaltending is.
Reporter: "What’s your Mom’s birthday?"
Tortorella: "I have no idea."
More to the point, why hasn’t Columbus snatched him up? Mason stinks and could use some time in Springfield to get his act together. Plus it sounds like they could use a veteran Russian player to make sure certain younger Russian teammates learn a valuable lesson on the differences between NHL and KHL.
"You can want to get to April but when you get to April you may not like the answers you get, so you might as well enjoy the ride while it's going on." - Brian McNally on JRR, 8/29/2011
Happy thought for the day:
The Caps are currently #2 on this list (goals scored per game). But their only player on this list (goals top 30) is at #29, and on this list (points top 30) it’s just the guy sitting at #13 and nobody else.
What do you think the odds are that the Caps won’t have at least two of the top 30 goal scorers and two of the top 30 point producers in the league by season’s end? For them to be scoring as many goals as they are with so little from the top, that means they’re getting balanced production. Something we haven’t really seen much of in the past.
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 10:47 AM EST reply actions
But is the balance sustainable? Will MoJo and Chimmer be 20-goal guys? Will the D’s contribution to O continue in MG52’s absence?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
D – Yes, because Wideman’s been doing it even more than Greener (Detroit game aside).
Mojo/Chimmer – I don’t see it, but I also don’t see Knuble and Semin keeping as low a pace as they currently are.
"You can want to get to April but when you get to April you may not like the answers you get, so you might as well enjoy the ride while it's going on." - Brian McNally on JRR, 8/29/2011
I could see Chimera scoring 20 for the first time this year. His goal scoring is a combo of two things: increased shots on goal and a high shooting percentage. He’s gone from two shots a game to 2.6, and though his career shooting percentage is 9.2% and he’s currently shooting at a 13.4% clip, a regression to that mean with the same number of shots (and a 78 game season) would give him an 18 goal season. A 20-goal season is definitely within the error bars on that one, however.
Johansson needs to shoot more if he’s going to hit that 20-goal plateau. He won’t keep putting in 23% of his shots.
Reporter: "What’s your Mom’s birthday?"
Tortorella: "I have no idea."
If MarJo sticks on the 2nd and Chimera/Laich/Ward happens, yeah, I can see those guys getting 20 goals. MarJo has had some goals that may not happen consistently over the course of the year but Chimera’s goals have all been ugly but very repeatable.
Comrades, leave me here a little, while as yet 't is early morn:
Leave me here, and when you want me, sound upon the bugle-horn
I wouldn’t bet on the bottom 13 continuing to do as well and I wouldn’t bet on the top 5 continuing to do as poorly.
I do think 3.2+ goals per game and less than 2.8 goals against per game is sustainable. And that’s a pretty good goal differential.
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
Sure is. Not sure I see the goal rate staying that high, but we’ll see.
Also, their current SOG differential is 0.00. How ’bout that?
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as you’d expect for a team that has led much more than it has trailed.
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Not sure I agree there. Obviously score effect impacts things, but shot differential is still a leading indicator of overall success. For example, here are the NHL’s ten-win teams, excluding the Caps:
CHICAGO
PITTSBURGH
DALLAS
BUFFALO
NY RANGERS
PHILADELPHIA
MINNESOTA
TORONTO
Which of those teams would you say are legit and which are counterfeit?
Now, here are those teams with their respective SOG differentials:
CHICAGO (4.1)
PITTSBURGH (4.8)
DALLAS (-6.3)
BUFFALO (0.1)
NY RANGERS (-5.5)
PHILADELPHIA (2.9)
MINNESOTA (-6)
TORONTO (-3.1)
How well do those match-up to your thoughts on the teams? Pretty well, no?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Pretty much spot on.
I was watching highlights of the Dallas/Florida game the other night and there was nobody in the stands. I thought, “Will people ever embrace hockey in Miami” and then realized that it was in Dallas! The team has one of the best records in the game and nobody is going.
I thought they were attributing a lot of the attendance issues to ownership instability. Has Dallas historically had problems with attendance?
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
I never really understood that argument. So what if the owner is going bankrupt. The team’s doing really well.
Historically, Dallas has supported the team. It’s always been around middle of the pack for attendance.
I never really understood that argument. So what if the owner is going bankrupt. The team’s doing really well.
I think the argument is, “Why am I going to invest my financial and emotional capital in a team that might up and move to Quebec in the near future?”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Dallas used to have tons of fans. Helps, of course, that they were a pretty damn good team when they moved from Minnesota (ah, not having to go through the pains an expansion franchise!) and then won a Cup a few years later. And much to the organizations credit, they really invested themselves in the greater Dallas community to build up youth hockey programs and create a fanbase of kids who would grow up being Stars fans.
But a string of years missing the playoffs, ownership unwilling to invest in the team, that disaster with Brett Hull as co-GM……people aren’t ready to jump back on the Stars wagon.
Pledge Drive 2011-2012: CARSON KOLZIG FOUNDATION! Season Pledge total--$403.25!
Scenario sounds vaguely familiar to me…
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Associate Editor at Five For Howling.
by Carl Putnam on Nov 17, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
Based on how little production Sasha is churning out right now, I’d say the odds are pretty good, better than 1 in 4 chance, that they don’t have two guys in the top 30 in goals.
Cross check and all call.
by bigonetimer on Nov 17, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
by the way, that is fine with me. I think the balance you’re alluding to is much more critical to success in the second season.
Cross check and all call.
by bigonetimer on Nov 17, 2011 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
So when the coin flips over and the team plays spectacularly tonight, including goals by Ovechkin, Semin, and Chimera, which brand of voodoo magic do we use to ensure it stays that way all year?
"A picture is worth a thousand words. For moving pictures we manage to shorten it to one or two."
Keep scheduling lottery teams.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 17, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I wouldn’t mind playing the Avalanche more than once.
"A picture is worth a thousand words. For moving pictures we manage to shorten it to one or two."
by Dimagus on Nov 17, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Make it so.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Nov 17, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Hello Caps fans:
My namesake stole one from your boys on Tuesday, and I saw a lot of love for his holiness, but many of you (not all) made the point that he’s not worth $7M per year. I wanted to reply yesterday, but ya know….the 24h troll rule and all.
I just want to say that Pekka is easily worth $7M a year. In addition to being runner up in the Vezina (in a year where the winner’s numbers were death-defying, and Pekka would have won it with ease if not for TT), he was also 4th in Hart Trophy voting. He has followed up last season with an impressive start to this season. He will not let up….ever!
So, if you watched the game against your Caps, Pekka single handedly stole that game. You saw it, I saw it, everyone saw it. So since you have the likes of Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin and Green, you probably figure that Rinne just stood on his head and you were snake bit and shoulda won that game, right?
Wrong!
Pekka does that $hit every single night. We give up tons of shots every game. Dudes walk in on Rinne every game. Dudes screen him. Dudes find themselves wide open across ice for a one-timer. Dudes are all alone all the time in front of the net. Dudes get 5 on 3 power plays and can’t score. I see this stuff on a gamely basis. At least 9 out of 10 games is like this.
So some of you guys were posting stats suggesting that he can’t keep it up. I disagree. Really, he does what he did to y’all every single night against every single team. Some suggested that the difference in Pekka’s SV% and an average one would be made up for by adding a scoring forward. I suggest to the good people of DC that if you put an ordinary goalie in net for the Preds, with the number of shots we give up, their GAA would be 3.00 and their SV% would be 0.890. How do I know this? Cause I watch every game and I just do. How many did he steal against your mighty Caps on Tuesday? At least one? Perhaps two? WELL, PEKKA DOES THAT $HIT EVERY SINGLE NIGHT!!!
Not trying to provoke anything. I"m just tellin’ ya. Without Pekka, the Preds are the Columbus Blue Jackets. Perhaps even worse.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 12:19 PM EST reply actions
The argument against him being worth $7M a year is more a general idea that teams shouldn’t be spending that much on goaltending…especially over that term length. It isn’t directed at Rinne specifically, as he obviously has established himself in that top 3 in the league category and I think will compete for the Vezina again.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Nov 17, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
But I also might suggest that there's not another team that is a defense-oriented as the Preds.
Since the goalie is the last line of defense, one could make the arguement that he’s the most important player on the team, and should be paid the most.
On the other hand, I also see your point that maybe we could’ve signed him for less cash at 7 years. But in 7 years he probably won’t be in the top 5 of goalie salaries anymore, so perhaps its not that stupid? Time will tell obviously. But for what it’s worth, my (biased) opinion is that no player is more valuable to his team than Pekka is to the Preds.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
And if the Preds are so defense-oriented then what does it say about the help Rinne gets? What about the fact that Nashville made Ellis and Mason look like legit starters, and didn’t really struggle last time they let an elite goalie walk?
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Those two were stopgaps.
They played well in limited action, and both Ellis and Mason sucked their final 1-2 years as the Pred goalie. They weren’t up for it cause they’re not that good, and in their final years with Nville, they were not looking like legit starters.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
It’s very hard to call where salaries will be in 7 years, but it’s possible he could be not on the top level at that point.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Nov 17, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
If any goalie is worth $7m per year, it’s Rinne.
No goalie is worth $7m per year.
Fin.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 17, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 11 recs
Every GM should read those two sentences over and over again and refuse to pay goalies that kind of money.
Backstrom has the highest amount of money I’d ever pay a goalie and even then the term sucks for him too. He’s still an elite goalie, but you’re not going to get 60+ games a year out of him.
Comrades, leave me here a little, while as yet 't is early morn:
Leave me here, and when you want me, sound upon the bugle-horn
Kipprusoff has the worst deal in the NHL. Oh, wait. That’s DiPietro. No, wait, that’s Khabibulin. Or Luongo. Or…
DiPietro doesn’t even have close to the worst deal. For one, the dollars aren’t even that high. For two, he can LTIR most of the time. For three, the Isles need all the help they can get going to the cap floor.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Imagine some bizarro world where DiPietro stays healthy. If he ever could, his deal would be the greatest of all time. Dude looked like a world beater till the world beat his body to a bloody pulp full of injuries.
Comrades, leave me here a little, while as yet 't is early morn:
Leave me here, and when you want me, sound upon the bugle-horn
While the cap dollars aren’t bad, the real dollars are. And that’s just as bad for a team like the Islanders, who can’t really afford to give a player that much money if he’s not going to be on the ice.
At least he’s on the right continent. Dude can’t even be considered the worst contract they are paying out right now.
Please, call me F&B.
Something about the Island and bad deals (see Bonilla, Bobby).
J.P.: You might be the king of all geeks here…
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Nov 17, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
Buyout has three more years according to Capgeek.
You tried your best and failed miserably. The lesson is "Never Try."
Ouch. Ouch. Ouch.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
Spoken from a man.....
….whose team can score goals.
We don’t have that luxury. Pekka IS worth it for us, although paying a goalie that kind of money would be a waste for the Caps.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting read.
But I’ma believe my lyin’ eyes over his lyin’ ass!
Remember, statistics are never representative of outliers.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Best part is the “table with all goaltenders with a career save percentage of 0.923 or above, minimum of 500 games played.”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 17, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I also like:
For his contract to be about about equal in value to other goaltenders making $4M a year or above, all Rinne has to do is play at the Hasek level for 65+ games a year for 7 years.
Combined with the author’s earlier speculation/belief that the top-paid goalies are overpaid as a group, that would seem to exacerbate the point, no?
Please, call me F&B.
His last comment indicates that he’ll be addressing some interesting points about goaltenders, like how a moving cap or difference in team play would affect the conclusion. My takeaway from the post was that although the contract was probably a mistake, it wasn’t as big of one as I originally thought.
Well, if "he" says it, then it must be true.
I guess we’ll have to revisit the question in another year or two :)
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Not really – spoken by a man who’s aware of the marketplace.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
And if the Preds moved some of that $7 Million elsewhere maybe they wouldn’t have such a hard time scoring goals…
Please, call me F&B.
Who's that for $2M?
Ryan N-H?
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
RNH already makes more than $2M on the cap. And why limit it to $2M? What’s the difference between Rinne and Lindback? Or Rinne and the average NHL starter salary? Gonna be more than $2M in either case.
Please, call me F&B.
Big difference dude.
What’s the difference between Rinne and Lindback?
Did you really not see how good he is? You know, forwards aren’t worth $10M a year….except for Ovechkin (if he was still scoring 60 goals). The best at their position are worht every penny.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Lots of people don’t think Ovechkin is worth his deal.
And “the best at their position are worth every penny” is a patently absurd statement. So that means Pekke Rinne (who has never actually been named “best at his position”) can’t possibly be overpaid?
And I was talking about the money Lindback makes, not the talent gulf.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
In other words, if you can get a decent enough netminder like Lindback instead of Rinne and save $6 million against the cap that way, you keep Ryan Suter on a long-term deal.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
Keep Suter, keep Weber, and still have enough to address some forwards (I’m assuming they already had to have budgeted at least 5+ for each of Suter and Weber, so Rinne’s money makes up the difference to get you to what those guys actually get paid, and you still have money left over since those guys won’t make 8+.)
Please, call me F&B.
If he was scoring 60 a year he would.
which is what they thought when they signed him.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, if he was scoring 60 he’d be worth that. But he didn’t maintain the pace… just like Rinne.
Please, call me F&B.
Rinne IS maintaining that pace.
Don’t use your ability to predict the future as a point in support of your arguement.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
So, pick. Over the course of this contract, what will Rinne’s save percentage be closer to
a) .930
b) .915
There is a ton of randomness in save percentage. One-season wonders about, and two-season wonders do as well.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
a
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
See you in seven years.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
I’m just going on what every other NHL goalie in the history of EVER has done. So unless you think he’s the best ever, a claim you have backed away from, then you need to basically concede that he isn’t going to put up .930 perennially through this deal.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I never said that
You said that.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Again. Just see above. You picked a). That’s better than Hasek. You’re predicting Rinne to be the best ever, when it’s all said and done.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
You said over the course of this contract
Previous years will bring him down.
So what I said is right.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
Do you not understand the logical fallacies there?
A. You claimed you never said Pekka Rinne is the best goalie ever
B. Currently Hasek is regarded as the best goalie ever, and you have not disputed this assertion the multiple times it has been posited, so we can allow that you agree with it
C. Hasek could maintain a .930 SV% 5 out of 6 years
D. You believe Rinne will be closer to .930 than .915 over the next 7 years
E. That would make Rinne a better goalie than Hasek
J.P.: You might be the king of all geeks here…
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Nov 17, 2011 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
Well, that would likely give him a better career Sv% than Hasek. Seems pretty unlikely.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
The burden of proof is on you to show why Rinne is different and special, when every other goaltender in the league can’t maintain their sv%.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And I did by proving that he's worth 2/3 of a goal a game and 40+ goals over a year.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
Over one season. Knee high is saying that sort of performance is rarely maintained over two years, let alone 7.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
No, you didn’t, Your assumptions were demonstrably wrong and you assigned him 10% more starts than he’s ever had before. You’re going to have to do better than that.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
they had to have been completely inept to think he’d score 60 a year for 14 seasons. NO ONE does that. No one scores 60 even once. Alex Ovechkin’s 2007-2008 was an aberration. hell of an aberration to see every night, but I’d be shocked if we ever saw another 60 goal season out of anyone unless there’s another set of major rule changes.
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by RedBirdie on Nov 17, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He also signed that deal in the middle of that season, before he had ever had a 60 goal season. I doubt they really thought he’d hit 60 in that year.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
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Patently absurd?
Why was he 4th in MVP voting last year? That suggests that he is the best at his position. The Vezina is purely statistical.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Where was Ovechkin in MVP voting a year after being a finalist?
Where was Miller a year after finishing 4th? Bryzgalov a year after finishing 5th? (both finalists for Vezina as well)
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Are you predicting the future again?
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
As this contract extends into the future, and not the past, I think talking about what Rinne will/won’t do is perfectly relevant.
Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.
by SmallZ827 on Nov 17, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks Judge Judy
The defense rests.
One cannot predict the future. So I call for a mistrial.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
So your defense is that you’re saying the remainder of his contract, which is to be played in the future, can’t be predicted. So how do you know he’ll be worth it?
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
It is more rational to predict the maintenance of stellar numbers than to GUARANTEE that those numbers, which have already been acheived, will go down to the level of an average goalie
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
Unless you have some time-travel device, not really.
J.P.: You might be the king of all geeks here…
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Nov 17, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It is more rational to predict the maintenance of stellar numbers than to GUARANTEE that those numbers, which have already been acheived, will go down
Why?
to the level of an average goalie
Did anyone say that about the near future?
The other “best” goalies in the game now—Vokoun, Luongo, Hiller, Lundqvist, Thomas, Miller maybe—barely average a .920, if at all (I believe only Vokoun, Thomas, and Hiller have since the lockout). .920 is above average in a given season nowadays, and if that’s your career average, it’s elite.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Makes no sense:
The other “best” goalies.
Pekka is the only best goalie.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Tim Thomas and all his shiny hardware begs to disagree.
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________
“Now tell him his worldview is wrong and his mom is fat.”
J.P.: You might be the king of all geeks here…
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Nov 17, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Ask around. The hockey analysts you say whom RedBirdie disagrees with? Those are their “best” goalies. You’re not going to get a unanimous opinion. Even from the statheads, no unanimous opinion for best goalie right now.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Tim Thomas made history last year, in both the regular season and the playoffs. I think there’s an open question what goalie I’d like my team right now and for the future, but that conversation has to start with him, doesn’t it? His performance in the playoffs was better than any I’d ever seen, and I’m “Old!”
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
It’s more rational to predict that he’s like every other goalie that’s ever played in the league, meaning he sees significant variation in his year-to-year performance.
Andrew Raycroft had a .930 season. Think it was a good idea to trade for him?
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So you're suggesting he's average?
I can’t compete with that.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
What? I’m suggesting that he’s not a unique and special flower that can maintain and all-time great sv% year after year. That and average mean two different things.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
over the course of his career? Decidedly average.
Pledge Drive 2011-2012: CARSON KOLZIG FOUNDATION! Season Pledge total--$403.25!
If one cannot predict the future, how can you, with any confidence, say Rinne will live up to this contract for the life of it?
Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.
by SmallZ827 on Nov 17, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
see above
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
So are you, in the sense that you’re predicting he maintains his current numbers in the future. Neither of you is more right than the other, and only time will tell who’s correct. You’re going on what you believe Rinne is capable of based on what you’ve seen of him, and everyone here is going based on historical trends with other situations they believe to be comparable.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Which is why I'm right.
You people are making my arguement even stronger for me. I have empirical evidence…on the person I’m talking about….that he can maintain this pace.
Y’all don’t.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
How do you have empirical evidence? Because he’s done it once?
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, that is what empirical evidence is.
I have seen Pekka do it before, and I’ predict that he will continue to do it because he is also doing it this year.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve seen Dominick Hasek put up .930 5 out of 6 years, but wouldn’t sigh him to a 6 year contract right now.
And you also have a poor grasp of statistical variance and related principles.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
he seems to have a poor grasp of everything except fan boy homerism. Heck, I’m thinking empirical evidence does not mean what he thinks it means.
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by RedBirdie on Nov 17, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm a homer indeed.
But that doesn’t mask facts.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
But your facts don’t support your claims. That’s where the accusations of homerism come from.
J.P.: You might be the king of all geeks here…
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Nov 17, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Nice concept about signing Hasek today.
I’m well versed in statistics. In what way do I have a poor grasp? Because I didn’t get your estimate of 20 goals a year that Rinne is responsible for? Before one can appreciate statistics, one must understand mathematics.
Pot, meet kettle.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Says you....
….nevertheless, we’ll never really know.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly, you can't really quantify that statistic.
You can get a ballpark, but you never know for real how much a goalie is worth. At least not quantitatively.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
So on June 1, 2008, you would have been perfectly comfortable saying that Alex Ovechkin would score 65 goals every season for the next 7 years? I mean, he did it once, so obviously it is the most likely, nay, only possible scenario moving forward.
J.P.: You might be the king of all geeks here…
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Nov 17, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You believe Rinne’s situation is so unlike anyone other goalie’s in NHL history that he’ll be able to defy the trends of any other goalie ever, overcome the problems other goalies have faced, including the greatest in the game, better than anyone else ever has?
You can believe that, I guess.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Don't be so dramatic
Yes, I believe that. Do you believe that he can’t?
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
Not dramatic, just emphasizing that we’ve been looking at the numbers from all goalies in the history of the game.
Yes, I don’t think he’s so unique.
I think we’ve reached the end of this discussion.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
Numbers for goalies are a little overrated, no? Kind of like numbers for QBs. There are intangibles that a good goalie or a good QB bring that are not quantifiable—like overall team confidence, for example.
by DonnieKnutts on Nov 17, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Like the confidence FLA had playing in front of one of the great goalie seasons ever in 03-’04? The kind of confidence that allowed them to make their playoff run that season?
I just don’t see it.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn’t go that far, it’s there. It’s just not nearly as big an influence as the actual ability to stop pucks. Playing in front of a sieve most definitely does change the way a team approaches a game (at least in every level I ever reached), but it’s a) not quantifiable and b) less likely to influence the game than the goalie’s actual performance.
Let’s say you know you have a stud, Hasek in ‘98, you are going to have all that confidence in the world. But if he lets in a few stinkers, everyone had bad days, you’re still going to lose regardless of your confidence boost.
Please, call me F&B.
How much is that really worth, though? Not much, in my mind, especially with a solid netminder like Lindback appears to be (or that Nashville will undoubtedly find soon enough).
Back when I was young and naive I thought that since Varly hadn’t lost in regulation in his first 16 regular season games, the Caps played much more confidently in front of him than in front of Theo, and that the trend would continue. Then, you have last season, where Varly played great and couldn’t buy a win.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
So you think he’s the best goalie ever. Ok. That’s all you had to say.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is that what I said?
No, I said, he is capable of putting up numbers in that range. If that mekes him the best ever, then I guess he will be. But he’s gotta do it first, which is why I didn’t say what you said I did.
Stay literal bro, don’t put words in my mouth.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Brochacho, the words that come off your keyboard have to be supported by inferences you’re making, whether you realize you’re making them or not. You need to get a lot more precise with your language before you start up with the parsing argument.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Those are your inferences, not mine.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
Right, those are your implications. You implied them, I inferred them.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
oh come off it. You’ve been chirping about how Rinne is the greatest goalie in the history of the world for a couple hours now. He’s had one elite season and a month and a half of stellar play and you’re insisting that he’s not only as good as the greatest goalie ever, but quite possibly better. The only person putting words in your mouth is you.
Pledge Drive 2011-2012: CARSON KOLZIG FOUNDATION! Season Pledge total--$403.25!
by RedBirdie on Nov 17, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Also, being capable of putting up numbers in that range for one season versus in five out of six are totally different barrels of fish.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m sorry, but statements have implications and lead to reasonable inferences. If you think that Rinne will maintain .930 over the life of this contract, then that makes him the best goalie ever. You can’t say “he’ll maintain .930 because he did it last year and is doing it after 17 games this year even though no other goalie has ever done that” and also say “I never said he’s the best goalie ever.” If he does the first, he is the second.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
How I yearn for the days of relatively cogent arguments from MarioD.
J.P.: You might be the king of all geeks here…
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Nov 17, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
just laughed at the office and got asked what was so funny…..
Pledge Drive 2011-2012: CARSON KOLZIG FOUNDATION! Season Pledge total--$403.25!
No. I’m saying that these guys were high in the MVP race and fell back to Earth. You speak as if his finishing fourth means he will finish in that range into the future. I’m saying that’s no guarantee. You also say that he’s worth that money if he’s at that level now. I disagree, but I won’t pursue that point. So if he regresses even a little bit, he’s not worth that money anymore.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
I never guaranteed anything here
I’m saying that’s no guarantee
So I guess we agree with each other now.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
4th in MVP voting + maintaining his pace + more/as valuable to his team than Hasek. 2+2+2=6.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t say calling Pekka the best G was patently absurd. I said that the notion that he can’t possibly be overpaid is patently absurd.
And he was 4th in MVP, Ok. He was second in his position race. Hard to make the case that he’s the best G with that record.
Please, call me F&B.
You said neither:
And "the best at their position are worth every penny" is a patently absurd statement. So that means Pekke Rinne (who has never actually been named "best at his position") can’t possibly be overpaid?
I maintain that the best players in the league at their positions are worth every penny.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
Why?
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The only possible argument he has is that the CBA caps what any one player can make…
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I re-phrased what I originally said due to your reading comprehension failure.
And “the best at their position are worth every penny” is a patently absurd statement. So that means Pekke Rinne (who has never actually been named “best at his position”) can’t possibly be overpaid?
Means the same as:
I didn’t say calling Pekka the best G was patently absurd. I said that the notion that he can’t possibly be overpaid is patently absurd.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Robert
I tried to spare you embarrassment about your shoddy math skills earlier. You should learn to return the favor, and recognize that I “let you up” earlier.
Read your statement again to see what you said was patently absurd. What’re they teaching kids in school nowadays?
;)
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
You certainly didn’t, and you’re dancing on the edge of ad hominem. Keep it up and you’ll lose your posting privileges.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
just is case you need it, it’s ready to go. made it for JP last month.
Pledge Drive 2011-2012: CARSON KOLZIG FOUNDATION! Season Pledge total--$403.25!
I re-read it. Still says what I think it says.
My estimate at 12 goals was clearly goal. 20 goals is a decent ballpark going forward, I stand by that.
You may want to check yourself on the education statement. I got enough degrees to fill an alphabet.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So do I
So we’ll call it Mutually Assured Destruction and not go there?
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
You didn't question my reading comprehension?
Anyhow, I’m outta here dude, thanks for the joust! And good luck to your Caps this year!
:)
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Your reading comprehension demonstrated it’s own failures. I said nothing about what you were taught.
Please, call me F&B.
Ugh!
I hate being the one to let it go. Especially after extending an olive branch! But I’m letting it go…………
I guess I just inferred it based on your accusation that my reading comprehension was not good. Sound familiar?
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
No need to infer. I flat out said it. Your reading comprehension has been poor throughout this exchange.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Nice.
But at least I didn’t have to reference my own alphabet soup to legitimize (incorrectly) that my math skills don’t suck.
That showed your insecurity. And the above statement shows your character.
Later tater.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, it was an inside joke for my brother.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
in a salary cap world, I’d want guys to be worth every penny.
When Rinne strings together a whole series of elite seasons, then maybe we can have a conversation about how good he is. But prior to last season, he was simply an average-to-good (and I’m going to come down on the side of “average”) goalie. I’ve seen too many one and two season wonders, particularly goaltenders, to bet the farm on Rinne for the next 7 seasons.
Pledge Drive 2011-2012: CARSON KOLZIG FOUNDATION! Season Pledge total--$403.25!
by RedBirdie on Nov 17, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’ve seen too many one and two season wonders, particularly goaltenders, to bet the farm on Rinne for the next 7 seasons.
Whatever, Columbus has been riding the Steve Mason Train to championship town for years now…
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
those bastards are going to screw our chances at the Lotto Championship!
Pledge Drive 2011-2012: CARSON KOLZIG FOUNDATION! Season Pledge total--$403.25!
No shit. Matty P, to the Blue Jackets, stat!
We're Hüsker Dü and we're on MTV. Who are you, and what are you on?
by bilspacecadet on Nov 17, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, you don't have to be in the conversation then.
Since you know more than every hockey analyst.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Please don’t come in here and start being condescending to everyone.
"My favorite fan base in D.C. Is United's. Period. The end." - Steinberg
Keep United in DC. A Fair Deal at RFK, and a Pathway to a Stadium for a team loyal to the city.
by Bald Pollack on Nov 17, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I'm not dude.
As you can see, I’m in D-mode trying to get off some of my own shots here and there.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
How many deals to big-name players do hockey analysts hate? They’re like Pierre McGuire whenever some good player gets signed.
I feel like we’re just re-hashing some of the arguments made here. Lots of people chimed in. Take a look.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
Address her substance, don’t rely on “every hockey analyst” presumably agreeing with you. Argue on the merits.
Please, call me F&B.
Like your sacred cow of "that guy" who wrote an article about how Pekka ain't worth the money?
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
That we agree with the Driving Play writer.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
I’m going to infer something from what you wrote, so forgive me for not parsing that sentence literally.
I’m assuming you meant that you’re being asked to present evidence, or critique other evidence, rather than making unsupported assertions and deciding that nothing you type has implications. Then yes, just like that.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
BTW, having a tough time keeping up here......
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
I can tell you are. No worries though.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I don’t understand your assumptions. Why is anyone who’s the best at their position inherently worth $10,000,000 a year? If he’s only a little bit better than the average, or better than the replacement, then he’s not worth much more than the average. There’s a lot more variation in F ability at the highest level then there is in G ability.
The other edge of the sword is that not only are they paying Pekka huge money, they’re paying it to him for huge term. That means that the team has assumed all of the risk of injury or performance decline over the course of that contract – Pekka gets paid either way. Spoiler alert: goalies (and everyone else) are more prone to injuries after age 30. There’s almost no chance that he plays up to the value of that contract.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Just your opinion.
Thanks for sharing. Good point about the longevity of the contract. If there’s a downside to the contract, that’s it.
But that’s the best concession on a good/bad contract you can get from me :)
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
are you always this condescending, or is this just a special show you’re putting on for us? Knee High is one of the most informed, insightful, and eloquent members of this community. He has earned the respect of us because he can back up his arguments and he does it respectfully. A couple lessons you could learn.
Pledge Drive 2011-2012: CARSON KOLZIG FOUNDATION! Season Pledge total--$403.25!
by RedBirdie on Nov 17, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Most everything I say should be taken literally.
Don’t call names to try and make me look bad. I didn’t say anything outta line to KHTAD
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
I dunno. They way I feel about Rinne is that there are very few, if any, goalies in the league who are as good as he is right now. I’d expect him to continue being elite for at least the next two to three years. Given that your goaltender is the one player who’s out on the ice for every minute of every game they play in, and, out of every player on the team, he is the one most capable of single-handedly influencing the outcome of the game (not to mention the fact that hot goalies have carried teams to Stanley Cups that otherwise had no business going that far), I’m not necessarily opposed to Rinne’s contract. $7 million a season is high, but the dude is an absolute stud by all indications. Top-3, if not the best in the league. I don’t think Rinne @ $7 million/year is any more ridiculous than Ovechkin @ 9.5 (though both are, certainly, high).
Plus, people say the best way to build a contender is from the net outward. Granted, that hasn’t necessarily been true in recent years.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
All I'm saying.
Thanks for the input.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Plus, people say the best way to build a contender is from the net outward. Granted, that hasn’t necessarily been true in recent years.
Well the problem is that the people who don’t think any goalie is worth $7 million completely disagree with this statement. I know that myself and others have argued that this is not the best model at least since the start of the salary cap.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah. I tend to agree with JP’s sentiment that if any goalie is worth $7mil it’s Rinne, but no goalie is worth $7 mil.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
What people say that? Build a contender from the middle out — center, defense, goalie, wings.
Look at the goalies who have won the Cup the past 5 years. Giguere, Osgood, Fleury, Niemi, Thomas.
One of those things is not like the others.
Lots of people, particularly among the media continue to perpetuate the narrative of building from the net out. It’s died down a bit since the lockout, but it’s still there (hence widespread media love for Rinne’s contract).
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
wait, the hockey media has continued to perpetuate an blatantly untrue narrative? NEVER!
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I’ll still buy on a hot goalie being the best way to go deep in the playoffs though.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with you there. But hot goalies are about as predictable as [insert your own simile here since I’m really, really tired].
Oh definitely. See Ward, Cam and Halak, Jaroslav.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Yup. And it’s not like Ward and Halak aren’t talented goalies (they both are), but they’re not the top ones in the game.
The funny thing is, the Caps are the way that other teams should go with goaltending. Inexpensive veteran and pre-arbitration youngster.
In fairness, we got our inexpensive veteran on sale.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
Oh I totally agree it’s an awesome thing. Just not sure it’s the kind of thing other teams could reliably pull off in the future, at least not with a goalie of Vokoun’s caliber.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
What if we’ve been in an odd period in which all the best goalies were on bad (otherwise) teams? I tend to believe that this is essentially chance, and that goalie is still very important.
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
The goalie is still important, but the fact that the best goalies can’t go far on otherwise mediocre teams sort of helps my point. It’s better to spend less on the goalie and more on depth elsewhere on the team than bust the bank on a top goalie and not be able to build up other areas.
But I think it goes beyond that. We’ve seen top goalies crap out in the playoffs due to their own poor play regardless of their team. Luongo is obviously an example everyone points to, but Miller wasn’t great against PHI, Rinne was pretty mediocre v. ANA before stepping up against VAN in a losing effort, Bryzgalov hasn’t been good in the playoffs the past couple years. Quick, Nabokov, Brodeur have all been top goalies in the regular season that have had poor playoffs in recent years, and they aren’t on bad teams. I think Lundqvist is the only guy lately who has been consistently good in the playoffs but let down by his team. I just don’t think you can reliably predict the performances of goalies in the playoffs, even for top goalies. At least not reliably enough to justify paying the $6-7 million for term that it costs to get a top goalie.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
In retrospect, this was quite possibly the least “Fin.” Fin ever.
Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.
by SmallZ827 on Nov 17, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It was “Fin” for J.P. He had it right all along. He always manages to avoid getting trolled.
Please, call me F&B.
I’ve seen this movie before. Spoiler alert: it ends with him going back to OtF and telling everyone who close-minded and stupid we are.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I anxiously await the email from Chris Burton asking what the hell I did.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Look at you, Mr. Popular. Getting e-mails from editors of other SBN blogs.
Once you take the fisting element out, it's not romantic anymore.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Nov 17, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
But it’s always as part of a group. I never have fancy pants private conversations.
Once you take the fisting element out, it's not romantic anymore.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Nov 17, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
Or the trolling.
Once you take the fisting element out, it's not romantic anymore.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Nov 17, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
Also, namedropper.
Once you take the fisting element out, it's not romantic anymore.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Nov 17, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
I'm well known for fighting my own battles.
This stuff is a diversion, not real life. I don’t have anything against anybody here.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 18, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
The money isn’t so bad, but the term is atrocious. He’s one year from being on the wrong side of 30 and he’s a big dude — he has already gone under the knife once for a knee injury and he’ll be sidelined more and more often. That amount of heft coming crashing down on his hips a few hundred times a day is going to catch up to him. Give him a 21 over 3 deal and I’m on board; otherwise you have to look at aging goalies like Miller, Jiggy or others to see that goalies don’t last and especially not bigger goalies.
Comrades, leave me here a little, while as yet 't is early morn:
Leave me here, and when you want me, sound upon the bugle-horn
Not a bad point.
I’m not sure the relationship between size and career length is linear as you suggest, but 7 years is a long time. As far as age goes, there’s plenty of goalies that are in the prime up to 36 yrs.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
True, but the guys lasting that long are from a bygone era of either playing more stand-up than butterfly or spent considerable time with the old superpillow pads (see: Garth “thighrise” Snow circa 2000-2003)
Rinne didn’t spend much time with the old pre-downsized pads and he’s definitely not a stand-up style tender. He drops to the ice at the same rate Miller does. I don’t see him as a guy who is going to see success past 32 or 33. I mean, all guys regress but he’s going to be a .900ish goalie by then.
Comrades, leave me here a little, while as yet 't is early morn:
Leave me here, and when you want me, sound upon the bugle-horn
Dang, I meant to reply, see below.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
I suggest to the good people of DC that if you put an ordinary goalie in net for the Preds, with the number of shots we give up, their GAA would be 3.00 and their SV% would be 0.890.
How does volume of shots impact SV%? It doesn’t. If you put an average goalie in net for the Preds then they’d put up an average SV%, something around .912. And the difference over the course of a season would be 12 goals, so two wins.
Please, call me F&B.
NHL average from last year, including the playoffs, was ~.916.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, you're quite observant.
I noticed that too and let it go.
But I meant to say that the quality of shots that are put against Pekka would reduce the SV% of an average goalie. Like the point blank glove save he had on Ovechkin for example. Or the one where he had to reach behind his back to make the save. Most guys wouldn’t have gotten those pucks.
And the difference over the course of a season would be 12 goals, so two wins.
You can believe that if you want, but it just ain’t true dude. Is that what Hasek was worth to the Sabries in the 90s? Cause Pekka is that good.
And we’re giving up 33 shots a game (558/17). That means Pekka gives up 2 goals less every 3 games than an average Joe (SV% of .93 vs .91). So that’s 0.67 GAA better and 46 goals over 70 games. But that’’s only if you beleive in statistics. I think he’s worth more than that :)
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Your contention is that Pekka Rinne is the best goalie ever? Sell.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
No, just the best goalie in the game. And worth more to his team than any other player to theirs.
Don’t speak in hyperbole to discredit me.
Now buy.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
You just put Pekka in the same breath as Hasek in the 90s, which basically says he’s the best goalie ever.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
He's the best goalie in the game today.
To string it together for 5 or 6 years? Then he will be in the Hasek category.
For now, he IS every bit as good as Hasek ever was.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
and Jim Carey won a Veznia. one season don’t mean [Franceschetti].
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Predicting the future is not allowed today.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
predicting the future based on a couple of cherry-picked statistics and twisted to meet your narrative? Not really allowed any day at this place. The body of evidence clearly shows that maintaining save percentages of Hasek-like numbers over multiple seasons is not done unless your name is Hasek. Moreso, since Rinne, outside of last season, has shown rather average results, the body of evidence also suggests that it is more likely that he will regress the mean.
You know, this sort of reminds me of one of my favorite stories. Boston’s GM tried to predict the future with a goalie back in the 1990s when he was offered his pick of two. Do you know how this story ends?
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by RedBirdie on Nov 17, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
With Pekka Rinne winning 7 straight Vezinas and Harts?
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
NO! NO! Just as looking at the future is not allowed, neither is looking at the past. You must look at this single, static moment in time and form your entire worldview from it!
J.P.: You might be the king of all geeks here…
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Nov 17, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
way to make this Caps fan depressed! Can they PLEASE beat WInnipeg so I can develop a happier worldview based on a single, static moment in time, dammit?
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Brouwer has one goal per game over his last game. Therefore he will have one goal per game for the rest of his career.
Please, call me F&B.
way to explode my “It’s highly unlikely anyone will ever score 60 goals again” statement, asshole.
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btw, last two games! Now that’s real evidence right there and you can take it to the bank that Troy Brouwer will score 82 goals next season.
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Just define that static moment as a single season (as has been done a few times on this page), rather than a single game… and you can smile as a Caps fan – No repeated early exits in the Spring :)
But by the rules in place, you have to use that moment as both the ceiling and floor for your predictions — it’s like Groundhog Day. Taking the best Caps season post-lockout, we lose in 7 games in the 2nd round every time.
I’m sure some teams would be happy with that, but not Caps fans.
J.P.: You might be the king of all geeks here…
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Nov 17, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
ooooh, I got a fun one! Rinne’s playoff sv% was an awesome .907. Michael Neuvirth’s was .912. Neuvy is so getting an $8 million 8 year contract!
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So you’re telling me that Rinne will get you to the playoffs, but using things THAT HAVE ABSOLUTELY HAPPENED ALREADY AND HE WILL MAINTAIN, Pekka Rinne is a playoff choker.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So, at least they are REAL stats that I'm quoting
And is it appropriate for somebody to receive a warning about being condescending from somebody who makes the kind of condescending statement you just made?
I don’t think so either.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
She didn’t warn you, I did. Because you’re being abrasive and condescending. Either that will change, or the boolean flag for your posting privileges will.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
OK, I'm pretty much done here anyway.
Sent you an email about the bet. You can accept or decline as you prefer.
And I don’t consider arguing my point to be abrasive. I’ve taken plenty of abuse too, so I’ll just rack it up to pre-emptive striking.
Time will pass, will Pekka? It’ll be fun (or maddening) to watch.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
please kindly point me to the unreal stats I’m quoting?
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Again, you're putting words in my mouth
I didn’t say you quoted unreal stats.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
you are quite the piece of work.
So, at least they are REAL stats that I’m quoting
very clearly makes the point that I am using something less-than-real.
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Since we have been warned to take him very literally, maybe he meant that your stats included complex numbers? Was Pekka’s ES % a multiple of i? That’s on you, then.
J.P.: You might be the king of all geeks here…
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Nov 17, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
No, clearly making the point that I am using real stats.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
Sigh…you placed the emphasis on “REAL” which implies that the “stats” of your comments are somehow different than the other stats presented here. If you wanted to emphasize that you’re using numbers, you need to emphasize the “stats” part.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
That’s awfully….Quick of you to make that claim, especially this year. Rinne is up there, but best goalie in the game today? Tim Thomas has that mantle for the foreseeable future if anyone can make a claim to that.
Comrades, leave me here a little, while as yet 't is early morn:
Leave me here, and when you want me, sound upon the bugle-horn
MVP is also not for the best goalie (last time I checked, that was the Vezina, though in my opinion the voters frequently mess both up; not arguing Thomas for Vezina, though). Nashville is perceived to be a team that needs great goaltending to go along with Suter-Weber to prevent goals since they can’t score. Boston is perceived to have depth at every position, and their backup was the sv% leader the prior season. That’s why Rinne beat Thomas in MVP voting by four points.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, we beat y'all by only 2 points on Tuesday
So that’s a pretty good margin :)
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Campaign Promises fantasy team: Hamrlik To Fall
by CapitalCentre on Nov 17, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
a) It’s not set in stone that he’s the best in the game, and b) Hasek led the league in save percentage by .01 one year. And the year after. Rinne would’ve needed to post a .945-.950 two years in a row to be in that category.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
That ‘97-’98 and ‘98-’99 was just absurd. Incredible.
And this is from a guy that absolutely hates Hasek.
Please, call me F&B.
Careful, he might throw a blocker pad at you.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
or just take your ass out.
Signed,
M. Gaborik.
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Some of the names on those lists. Man, a blast from the past.
Once you take the fisting element out, it's not romantic anymore.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Nov 17, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
I'm from Rochester and watched most of his games.
He was great.
And so is Rinne.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
damn, Buffalo was giving up 27.8 shots against/game with Hasek in net and Barrrrassssooooooo was seeing 22.76
I didn’t realize it was a difference of .01 but that is one hell of a hundredth of a percentage point — that’s 21 more goals allowed.
Comrades, leave me here a little, while as yet 't is early morn:
Leave me here, and when you want me, sound upon the bugle-horn
I’m looking at the 97-98 season, and you know what I see that just made me do a double take? Hasek made 2002 saves. CuJo was second with a mere 1720. 72 and 71 games played, respectively.
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I always remembered the Sabres being pretty decent defensively but apparently hindsight is entirely based on Hasek having an all time best season.
Comrades, leave me here a little, while as yet 't is early morn:
Leave me here, and when you want me, sound upon the bugle-horn
The Sabres were a decent defensive team, but they weren’t all that great. Their forwards were pretty good at keeping teams from getting loose on break-outs, but the defense didn’t try to block a lot of shots since they knew they had Dom back there.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
he had a slightly more pedestrian 1758 saves in the 98-99 campaign, to go with his .937 sv%
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those numbers are just (BP, excuse my language) in-fucking-credible.
Which made Olie out-dueling Hasek in the 98 ECF all the sweeter.
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the smakedown this is going to provoke will be legendary.
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by RedBirdie on Nov 17, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
You can believe that if you want, but it just ain’t true dude. Is that what Hasek was worth to the Sabries in the 90s? Cause Pekka is that good.
Why should I use hyperbole to discredit your argument, when I can simply use the argument?. Pekka Rinne is not Dominik Hasek. He wasn’t even the best goalie in the league last year, or the year before that, or the year before that. Or did you think you’d signed last season’s Tim Thomas for seven years?
Why have you decided that he’s worth more to the Predators than any other player is worth to any other team? Do the Predators not have the best pair of defensemen in the league? Do they not have any defensive depth behind those guys? Do they not have any forwards that are worth a damn?
Rinne’s save percentage on the penalty kill is .935, which is better than his ES SV% right now (.933). I’ll bet you anything you care to part with that number comes down by 15 percentage points, at least, over the course of the season.
I’m not buying any argument for Pekka Rinne’s contract that includes him being the best goalie ever, or even in the league today. That’s just fanboy-ism and sense-making the contract. Poile screwed up. If that upsets you, I’m sorry, but it’s true.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
In retrospect, I should have kept my dander down a bit.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
he earned every bit of it. If anything, you were restrained.
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Hush
I’m still standing.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not saying he's the best of all time. I"m saying he's the best in the league right now.
But you’ve painted yourself into a corner by bringing up all of his glorious statistics. And now you’re becoming defensive. All of your reasons don’t include phrases like “he is not” or “he does not”, but rather they’re predicated on your predictions of the future like “he’ll never” or “he can’t.” So you’re talking about something you have no experience with (the future). In your defense, neither do I, so it’s a push.
Now to address your concerns:
Rinne’s save percentage on the penalty kill is .935, which is better than his ES SV% right now (.933). I’ll bet you anything you care to part with that number comes down by 15 percentage points, at least, over the course of the season.
Please tell me what those numbers were last year, sir.
He wasn’t even the best goalie in the league last year
If you had to pick, would you rather finish higher in Vezina or Hart trophy voting? I would want the latter. Pekka finished higher in Hart trophy voting than Thomas last year.
Pekka Rinne is not Dominik Hasek
I never said he is. He is Pekka Rinne.
Do the Predators not have the best pair of defensemen in the league? Do they not have any defensive depth behind those guys? Do they not have any forwards that are worth a damn?
Yes
No, they give up the third most shots per game in the entire NHL. And I couldn’t easily find the ranking, but their shot differential is a -6.9, which is higher than any other team in the top 10 of shots given up.
No, our forwards suck on offense.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
If I had to pick, I’d take the guy that set a regular season and post-season record, took home the Best G trophy and the Conn Smythe.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
And Tim has his many admirers...
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by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
And you'd lose.
Unless you think Thomas did that all by himself, or that Rinne couldn’t do the same thing in Boston. What ifs that aren’t worth bringing up.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
I’d lose what? How can you even claim anyone who picked Thomas would lose anything? Dude has 2 of the last 3 Vezinas and the most recent Conn Smythe. Rinne… has won a playoff round.
Please, call me F&B.
You'd lose to my team with Pekka in goal...all other things being equal.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Which they won’t be, because you paid him 7 million dollars for 7 years.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
With regards to the Hart, the fact that Rinne had more votes than Thomas doesn’t necessarily mean he’s better, just more valuable to his team. Thomas had more talent surrounding him, but that doesn’t necessarily preclude him from being a better goalie. Or perhaps his otherworldly stats were a by-product of having a better team around him. Regardless, I’m not sure there’s any argument that Thomas had a better year last year. Whether he’s a better goalie overall is more debatable, and I’d be surprised if Rinne isn’t the better goalie sooner rather than later just because of age.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually...
… the Vezina is not for the most valuable goaltender, it is for the best goaltender. From NHL.com:
The Vezina Trophy is an annual award given to the goalkeeper adjudged to be the best at this position as voted by the general managers of all NHL clubs.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Whoops… good catch! :D
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by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah… the point I was trying to make is that while Rinne may have been judged more valuable to his team, that doesn’t preclude Thomas from being better. Apologies if that got lost in there, my professors tell me my writing tends to be kind of rambly.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
What you said about the team around him should also be put into context.
Cause the Bs got better offense and similar defense compared to the preds.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, the case can be made that the Preds’ defense is probably better than Boston’s Sure Chara is good, but the Preds are very deep in back, led by Weber and Suter….
Although those guys do need to get paid in the next 7 years…
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But you’ve painted yourself into a corner by bringing up all of his glorious statistics. And now you’re becoming defensive. All of your reasons don’t include phrases like "he is not" or "he does not", but rather they’re predicated on your predictions of the future like "he’ll never" or "he can’t." So you’re talking about something you have no experience with (the future). In your defense, neither do I, so it’s a push.
Sorry, it’s not a push. As I said, the burden of proof is on you to show that Rinne is different (and better) than any other goalie in history.
Please tell me what those numbers were last year, sir.
.912 last year, more than 20 points off the pace, and .835 the year before. Want to make a bet that he finishes under .920 in that stat this year? $50 to the reasonable charity of my choice if I win, $50 to the reasonable charity of your choice if he does?
If you had to pick, would you rather finish higher in Vezina or Hart trophy voting? I would want the latter. Pekka finished higher in Hart trophy voting than Thomas last year.
If I had to pick, I would want the goalie who was best at stopping shots, which was clearly and undeniably Thomas.
I never said he is. He is Pekka Rinne.
You said he was every bit as good as Hasek during his run with the Sabres. Poh-tay-toe, Poh-tah-toe.
David Legwand is a fine two-way forward, Patric Hornqvist will get his goals, Martin Erat is a good 2nd line player, Smith doesn’t look half-bad and Colin Wilson is beginning to grow into the player they thought they drafted. Kevin Klein is a good player in his own right, they have the depth.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
was wondering how long it would take you to offer him a bet.
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by RedBirdie on Nov 17, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think what’s helped Fisher a lot is being able to live in the same city as his wife. I hate being away from my wife for more than a few days on a business trip… I can’t imagine being away months at a time.
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by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
Come on, Pekka for Predator Pontiff, bridge builder extraordinaire, are you up for this bet or not? Wanna put your money where your mouth is?
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I accepted your bet.
I sent you an email, as RedBirdie gave me a warning earlier and I couldn’t post. I don’t email people on blogs, but since you appear to be well respected around here, and because its for charity, I made an exception.
Got a feeling I’ma be on that road again soon.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
When assessing the Rinne deal, I think we also have to acknowledge that these deals do not happen in a vacuum…in other words, what makes sense for Nashville won’t necessarily be smart for the NYR, or the Leafs, or whomever.
Nashville is unique—it is a small-market team with the NHL’s second-longest-tenured coach and a clear-cut defensive identity. It’s not the type of town that will attract a Brad Richards or whoever that offseason’s hotshot free agent is. To use an EPL analogy, the Preds are like a mid-table team, and they seem to be content with that. So I think, if Poile can retain Weber and Suter—which still seems possible—then he did not “screw up” with this deal at all.
by DonnieKnutts on Nov 17, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
If they keep Weber and Suter. Big ifs. And if all 3 stay, how much money do they have to spend on anyone else?
Please, call me F&B.
Though if Poile doesn’t overpay another Erat, Arnott, Kariya, or Legwand-type again, well, there’s some cash right there.
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by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
In fairness, Nashville has been successful without “anyone else” thus far, assuming by “anyone else” we mean “big-name free agents.”
My random look and quick calculations averaging $7mil each for Suter/Weber/Rinne (assuming Weber gets a little bit more and Suter gets a little bit less) puts NSH at about $60 million in payroll next season without factoring in any other FAs who’s contracts may be expiring. Not a lot of wiggle room, but a bit. Still, I can think of worse guys to spend money on than those three. And I apologize for my fuzzy math, but then, I’m at least making some semblance of effort to pay attention in class :P
Course all of this is dependent on ownership allowing Poile to spend to the cap.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
There have been indications that they are going to spend more now. I don’t know if they’ll go to the cap (I guess we’ll see on the new CBA), but they’ve brought in new owners, new money.
Please, call me F&B.
I guess a lot of it comes down to whether they’re better with Rinne/Weber/Suter, or two of the three plus a high-scoring forward or two.
In the spirit of the latter, Semin to Nashville for Suter.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
Course not, but it’s always fun to dream.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Every year they give out the Vezina trophy to who the NHL’s General Managers decide is the best goaltender in the league. Rinne has certainly gotten his share of votes, but he’s never won it. Who knows, he might, but right now, Tim Thomas is the best goaltender out there.
So I’m selling on Rinne best in the game today.
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by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
Has Rinne even been a finalist more than once? I’m gonna guess no. TT has two of the last 3.
Please, call me F&B.
now way a guy with a season sv% of .911 and .917 was a Veznia finalist.
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Brodeur won the Vezina with a .917 in 2003-04…
/Luongo was robbed
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Did Luongo’s team make the playoffs?
And Brodeur has to be the most glaring omission from that list.
Please, call me F&B.
Luongo’s team did not make the playoffs, but why should that matter in judging the best goalie? He was incredible on a crap team, Brodeur was very good on a Cup winning team.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, didn’t realize you hated Luongo so much that you would defend Brodeur winning a Vezina behind the New Trapey Trapils.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Thomas plays in a much larger market, FWIW. Maybe nothing, since the Vezina’s not voted on by the writers.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Market means nothing for the Vezina… the GMs, the people whose job it is to evaluate talent and performance, vote on it. Now you can take it with a grain of salt that not all GMs are equally good at judging talent, but…
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough. I just know exposure is an argument often brought up when debating other rewards, but I’ll concede it’s not worth much here.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
It’s really about 1.2 goals every two games, using your numbers.
Using the NHL average, and we’ll even give you that Rinne will maintain a .930 (he won’t), it’s only about .85 goals every two games.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You can talk down the numbers all you want.
And I can talk them up. The most conservative numbers (yours) indicate that he’ll save 30 goals a year that others wouldn’t. Mine suggest that number is more like 46, which is perhaps generous. Oh and I quite agree with you that he won’t maintain his .930 sv%. After all, it’s not like he has ever done that before. Oh wait, he did it last year, and he’s ahead of that pace this year. Anyhow, I’ll meet you in the middle at 38 goals he saves.
That’s worth more than any of your previous (not you by name, but people over here) numbers, and that is the only point I wanted to make.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
No, my numbers are down to about 20, but it’s irrelevant since you aren’t arguing numbers or reality. He’s your guy and there’s not moving you off that hill.
Doesn’t matter now, the ink is dried. You get to have Rinne for the next 7 years. No skin off my back.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
20?
Pekka SV% this year (factual information): .933
Average SV% (according to you): .914
Difference: .019
Average SOG/G vs the Preds this year (fact): 32.82
That makes Pekka worth 1.9 goals every 3.05 games.
That makes Pekka worth 0.623 goals per game.
Over 70 games that’s 43.6 goals.
Change Pekka’s SV% to .925? 25 goals a year.
Your ballpark is nowhere near reality.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
I was using .916, the number Knee High corrected me with, but whatever.
My ballpark is closer to reality than yours, and time will bear that out.
Please, call me F&B.
Indeed Mr. Parker
We will revisit this joust in the future, perhaps.
Has been fun.
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
If he can maintain a .933 all year (his ES SV% right now, which is very high), he’ll be worth a lot of goals. He’s not going to do that without a lot of luck, though. His PK SV% is going to come way down over the course of the year, unless Barry Trotz and Pekka Rinne have discovered the secret to making teams shoot worse on the PP than they do at ES.
NHL average is .916, not .914. 70 games is a ton for a goalie. Here’s the list of goalies who started 70 last year:
Cam Ward (74)
Miika Kiprusoff (71)
Carey Price (70)
Pekka Rinne is conspicuously not on that list, having started 64 games last year.
Six goalies started 70+ the season before that, headlined by Marty at 76…but still missing Rinne, who started 54.
The year before that? 49 games started for Rinne.
If we assume he beats his career best for games started, and give him 65, then we can go with the following:
Average Sv%: .916
Let’s give Rinne his career high at .930
That’s a difference of .014
We’ll go with your 32.82 number without correcting for PP/PK and ES shots.
Over 65 games, that’s 29.82 goals over the course of a year, which puts him in line with other MVP candidates. But it doesn’t make him the best player in the NHL, or the best goalie in the NHL.
Those are the rosiest possible projections for his ability level and durability, his SV% he’s only shown once, his durability he’s shown never.
Here’s a list of single goalie seasons that have been at least 30 GP and at .929 or better:
Sort by name, then note the name that repeats five times at the top of the list. Note that Rinne’s gotten there once. Note that the only other name to repeat on the list is the reigning Vezina winner.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
couple of names on that list I didn’t expect to see.
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Kinda helps the point, no?
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
Rolo should thank his lucky stars he played behind that Minnesota trap.
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Rolo actually seems to have been a pretty good goalie in the later stages of his career, after his switch to the butterfly. Lucky, but also good – he put up pretty decent numbers with EDM, also.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
Never would have bet that Turco would be on that list…
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by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
and Theo? never would have guessed that one
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go know what else he won? Hart. Jose doesn’t need any lame excuses about finishing 2nd in the Veznia and 4th in the Hart!
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And no one got the joke... :(
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by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Nice.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
I’m here all week… make sure you tip generously.
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by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
looking closer, Huet only played 36 games.
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Right – I set the cutoff at 30 games. You’d expect to see those percentages regress further from there.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
He did .930 once. How many people have done .930 over 7 years… How many have even done .930 4 times over 7 years…
I’ll wait.
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
The year before he was .911 (legitimately below average). The year before he was .917 (right about average). But the year before that he was a perfect 1.000, so maybe he’ll get back to that level!
Please, call me F&B.
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
you’ve been waiting all day to bust out “legitimately below average” haven’t you?
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Mine suggest that number is more like 46, which is perhaps generous.
The only people able to reach such a high GVT, if memory serves, are Bobby Orr, Dominik Hasek, Wayne Gretzky, and Mario Lemieux. I think only Orr and Hasek reached that threshold consistently, but didn’t get much beyond 50. Nowadays, best GVT tends to be mid 30s, and that’s if you’re an MVP candidate (Ovechkin 07-08, Miller, Thomas).
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by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, thank you for your support.
See, I told ya he’s that good!
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
Best of all time, in his prime!
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I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
(Rinne didn’t even crack 30, by the way)
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
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by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
I"m just tellin’ ya. Without Pekka, the Preds are the Columbus Blue Jackets. Perhaps even worse.
Well that’s just not at all true. There is not a single player on CBUS that is as good as Weber or Suter. Nashville was a playoff team with Ellis in net. They were a playoff team with Mason in net. They were a playoff team with Rinne’s .911 SV%. They’d be a playoff team with NHL average goaltending.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
apparently they’re a playoff team with below average goaltending, too.
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I almost buy that. I think with competent netminding there would have already been a change behind the bench. If your percentages are terrible, someone is getting the axe. Unless you have an excuse.
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by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
granted, I’ve not looked to see what the rest of the West looked like that season Rinne had a .911. Those top teams are always strong, but if 6-12 are just a pile of sucktasticness, well……sure, a .911 goalie could totally take his team to the playoffs. And get bounced in the first round.
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Sorry, should’ve clarified I was talking about the Jackets. Sorta like if the Caps had zero roster weaknesses but still lost to Montreal, well, no “let’s try upgrading the roster” maneuver from GMGM before giving the coach the axe.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
…and asked to be traded to Nashville?
J.P.: You might be the king of all geeks here…
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Nov 17, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So? I didn’t forget him…
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
After carefully reviewing this thread, I am led to the conclusion that if any goalie is worth $7m per year, it’s Rinne, and that no goalie is worth $7m per year.
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Fin
(Entertaining read, tho’ what I learned is that Pekka forPredator Pontiff is terrible at constructing an argument, and that it appears that Japers’ folk have more respect for Weber and Suter than he does.)
by capsyoungguns on Nov 17, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Blasphemy!!!
I don’t see him as a guy who is going to see success past 32 or 33. I mean, all guys regress but he’s going to be a .900ish goalie by then
Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is where the Stanley Cup can be found.
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Nov 17, 2011 12:41 PM EST reply actions
Btw, Whyno says it’s Pavs and not Mace in the ’Peg net tonight.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
And Neuvy for the Caps, per Vogs.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I’m going with that as “the site of one of his best memories” for the call. That’s our Brucie. I would have expected Vokoun to get the net tonight.
Don’t try to figure Sasha out. Just ride the wave.
Between the Calder Cup win and patch-gate, I wonder if the former Bears will be booed by the hometown fans.
"You can want to get to April but when you get to April you may not like the answers you get, so you might as well enjoy the ride while it's going on." - Brian McNally on JRR, 8/29/2011
I hope someone tells Neuvy he sucks.
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by RedBirdie on Nov 17, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
battle of a baby czechs
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Pavelec and Mason: eerie statistical resemblance.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
And please Pavs… no fainting tonight (that was [Franceschetti]-ing scary!)
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
The whole time I am sitting at the bar dumbfounded watching that game wondering if someone died on ice while the organist is busy playing the tune to The Hockey Song or whatever the hell it was.
Comrades, leave me here a little, while as yet 't is early morn:
Leave me here, and when you want me, sound upon the bugle-horn
You'd think they've never seen a superstar before...
Pic from the Winnipeg Free Press, entitled “He’s here”
Or maybe they’re talking about Bob Woods….
"You can want to get to April but when you get to April you may not like the answers you get, so you might as well enjoy the ride while it's going on." - Brian McNally on JRR, 8/29/2011
by bagace on Nov 17, 2011 1:32 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Hey, the 2009 Calder Cup Finals might still hurt.
"My favorite fan base in D.C. Is United's. Period. The end." - Steinberg
Keep United in DC. A Fair Deal at RFK, and a Pathway to a Stadium for a team loyal to the city.
by Bald Pollack on Nov 17, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Accompanying today’s article is this great audio from Claude Noel: Storytime!
That'll make your weagle wink!
The pants that bind us should be left behind us.
Tweet me. If you dare. @nicraymond
So help me, I love that goofy grin.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
we’ve not seen it enough this season
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frak, this actual made me a little sad
If you want to survive out here, you've got to know where your towel is.
by ns on Nov 17, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
A word on Dennis Maruk
Many of you Rinkers were not even born when Maruk had his heyday with Washington. From Legends of Hockey:
" In Washington, Maruk caught fire as one of the NHL’s top scorers. In his second full season with the club, he potted 50 goals as a mere warm-up to his third campaign when he poured in 60 goals and 76 assists for a total of 136 points.
In considering his prime years with Washington, only nine players in league history have scored as many goals in a single season as Dennis Maruk and only eight players equaled or surpassed his single-season point totals. "
After that 60 goal season in 1982, the Caps hired Dave Poile, who made the deal that brought Langway and Locker to DC. They went to a more defensively oriented game and Maruk’s production was cut to 30 goals, and he was traded.
It was too bad his historically great 136 point season was wasted on a team that didnt even make the playoffs. I was but a wee lad but I remember that awesome Fu Manchu.
by S h a g g y on Nov 17, 2011 2:05 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I seem to recall ‘Maruuuuk" being trumpeted when he did something on the ice. (Back when we called ’em "Fu’s", not “Mo’s”). :o[ )
An admirer noted: "I think it's safe to say that your mustache has experienced more than an ordinary man's entire body".
by Acer Jonesy's Laughker on Nov 17, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
You got that right.
Marul also lost out on the Hart trophy that year because some other guy scored 92 goals and 212 points.
It’s saying something when you set every record for your team’s history and ring up 136 points, only to trail the NHL scoring leader by 32 goals and 76 points. Wayne was that freaking good…
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
SWhyno
Roman Hamrlik is only #Caps player to face [the previous] Winnipeg Jets. And, he played them 32 times!
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Is it just me....
…or is Whyno’s twitter avatar awesome?
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Hasek
Bringing things around to him for a second, on a soccer podcast I listen to, one of the hosts made mention of meeting Rob Ray when the latter was out at a bar after a game in DC. He asked about Hasek and his playing style and why he plays goal, and Ray mentioned that for the Czechs, if you do well as a goalie you can pretty much get what you want.
Case in point: the Czech Embassy held a party to celebrate the team after they won the Nagano gold, and one of the diplomats went to his hotel room and found his wife in bed with another man. The diplomat ran to the bed and cocked his fist, and noticed it was Hasek in bed with his wife. Not only did he run to get some drinks to share with Hasek, but encouraged him to resume whatever he was going to do with his wife after he left.
Dunno how true it is, but it’s a kick-ass story nonetheless.
"My favorite fan base in D.C. Is United's. Period. The end." - Steinberg
Keep United in DC. A Fair Deal at RFK, and a Pathway to a Stadium for a team loyal to the city.
by Bald Pollack on Nov 17, 2011 3:32 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
hilarious and doesn’t surprise me.
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Amusing gif...
From Tuesday, Hamhuis trying to avoid a Too Much Man penalty:
As seen on Tumblr
by Aliceanna on Nov 17, 2011 3:34 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
oh, that was certainly not shown on the Wings broadcast. Shame.
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Ah, okay.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
Did I miss Hamhuis getting traded to the Blues this summer? Have I been that busy?
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
World Juniors are in 40 days
I’m pretty stoked to see Kuz play again, get first looks at Yakupov and Grigorenko (please please please let them play) and I’m definitely stoked to see if Team USA can pick it up after last year.
Think we see Murray, Dumba, or Riely?
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:47 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I feel shame for not knowing….where are junior worlds this year? And are they on TV? Because I have a week off and need to avoid in-laws….
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I want to say they’re split between Calgary and Edmonton, but I can’t swear to it.
The USA and Canada games are usually on NHL network, right?
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
They have been the previous few years… so probably.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Murray is recovering from a leg injury and he’s young. I’m not sure what the rest of Canada’s D looks like. Is McIlrath going to make the team…
Please, call me F&B.
I knew he’d had an injury issue, I just wasn’t sure how bad it was. I’d heard Galchenyuk (or whoever Yakupov’s opposite number is at Sarnia) may be out through the tournament? Think he was good enough for Team USA? I have to imagine a potential top-5 pick makes that squad.
Anyone know if Granlund is eligible this year? If he is and his SM-Liiga team allows him to play, I bet he tears that tournament up.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Is Galchenyuk an American national? Didn’t realize that. I thought he blew an ACL and was out until spring.
Murray hasn’t started skating yet. He “might return in late Nov. or early Dec.” Gonna be tough…
Please, call me F&B.
Galchenyuk played for Team USA at the under-18s, so I’m guessing he’s at least got significant residence. He’s listed as American in and nhl.com news article from when Sarnia drafted him.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
And if he’s as good as his draft status suggested, it’d be nice to have another elite talent for Team USA in 2014 or 2018…
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
Has this been discussed?
Pretty egregious – I’d hope the league had something to say about that, at least to the referees going forward.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 4:17 PM EST reply actions
And this was via Artic Ice Hockey, mah bad.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
what is with all the faking of injuries and diving over the past season or so? It’s just out of control lately.
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If you ask soccer fans, it’s all a part of the game.
I hate it.
"One of the most difficult things everyone has to learn is that for your entire life you must keep fighting and adjusting if you hope to survive." -George Allen
If you ask soccer fans, it’s all a part of the game.
This soccer fan (and several others here) would disagree with you.
"My favorite fan base in D.C. Is United's. Period. The end." - Steinberg
Keep United in DC. A Fair Deal at RFK, and a Pathway to a Stadium for a team loyal to the city.
by Bald Pollack on Nov 17, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
Wow. Just wow.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2011 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
Ridiculous. Did Stamkos draw a penalty on that play?
Guess BB wasn’t just making stuff up when he called Stamkos a diver.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
Yes he did.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 17, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
if anything kills this sport, it’ll be the refs, no matter how many times Lemaire comes back from the dead.
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And people scoffed last season when BB said TB players including Stamkos were divers.
Snark aside, I hope the refs take note of these incidents with players not named Semin (has he ever been that blatant?)
by capsyoungguns on Nov 17, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
and yet Matt Hendricks got called for diving this season.
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I like how the stick is coming down and yet his chin jerks up. At least take a stage combat class.
Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.
I thought the chin jerking upward was a (very delayed) effort to fake being high-sticked.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, and I’m saying if you’re going to dive, at least dive well.
Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.
In fairness, the clip is in slow-motion. Probably less of a delay between the stick reaching its highest point and him jerking upward then appears.
I thought the way he gracefully went down on one knee and then laid forward was worse.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
no matter what, that’s a disgrace to hockey.
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For some reason all of this discussion has got me really wanting to watch some hockey tonight
by DonnieKnutts on Nov 17, 2011 4:27 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
What do you mean? The game starts at 7:30.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
730 in the ’Peg……
"We still have the power to score. And we will do that now."
by Pi on Nov 17, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
You’re all crazy. It starts at 5:30
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
I will. And I’ll enjoy it with my nice 70 degree weather.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
Oof, glad I’ve been away from the thread for a few hours. Epic goalie battle going on up there.
Don’t try to figure Sasha out. Just ride the wave.
Goalie duels are boring. I like it better when we score lots.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
by EmilyB on Nov 17, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
At least we didn’t blow it in the last five minutes.
by Murshawursha on Nov 17, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
I was about to go to the Nashville SBNation in hopes that we could talk about Ovechkin, or any other Capital. Yikes.
"One of the most difficult things everyone has to learn is that for your entire life you must keep fighting and adjusting if you hope to survive." -George Allen
OtF is a good place, and there are people there who share the majority opinion in this thread regarding Rinne’s extension.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Nov 17, 2011 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed, I’ve had many good discussions there. It’s a reason I’m not really worried about this guy going back and poisoning the well.
Please, call me F&B.
I don’t care if he thinks Rinne can stop a bullet with his teeth. I just want the Capitals to win every single damn game..by 6 goals. Is that too much to ask?
:)
"One of the most difficult things everyone has to learn is that for your entire life you must keep fighting and adjusting if you hope to survive." -George Allen
Rinne is probably just Adrian Veidt in disguise.
Once you take the fisting element out, it's not romantic anymore.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Nov 17, 2011 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So is the predator really just a psychokinetic squid?
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2011 8:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hey, go watch Lunchbox on the front page while we wait puck drop.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Came over here after seeing J.P.’s tweet. I envy those of you who were here discussing Rinne real time, given the multiple threads that started and ended. That was fun to read, but tough to follow.
Nice guys finish first, but sometimes the season is awfully long.
Follow me on Twitter.
Got any patience left?
Nice guys finish first, but sometimes the season is awfully long.
Follow me on Twitter.
or 8:30
I have no patience left. Time to kill in MW3. I hope you all appreciated the play on words there. You’re welcome.
"One of the most difficult things everyone has to learn is that for your entire life you must keep fighting and adjusting if you hope to survive." -George Allen
I’m off to the boy’s HS varsity hockey game. Be back home by 3P at the latest,
Nice guys finish first, but sometimes the season is awfully long.
Follow me on Twitter.
I just decided I was tired of doing actual work. Dealing with congressional staffers is kinda like dealing with Pekka Pontiff, but I much prefer to talk hockey than the appropriations process.
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I wasn’t discussing it, but I was following it and it was awesome.
Once you take the fisting element out, it's not romantic anymore.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Nov 17, 2011 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
I guess the part I don’t understand is whether he thinks Rinne will post a career .930, and if that will make him the greatest goalie of all time…
"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin
by Gould Old Days on Nov 17, 2011 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
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