Why There's a Book on Semyon Varlamov
by J.P. on Nov 17, 2009 11:00 AM EST
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PrintSemyon Varlamov is hot. In his last seven appearances, last spring's overnight sensation has a a 6-1-0 record, 2.09 goals against average and a .928 save percentage. Perhaps most importantly, he has seemingly overcome the troubles that plagued him early on this fall - he's given up more than two goals in a period just once during this streak and has, for the most part, avoided letting a single goal against open the proverbial flood gates.
And yet the book on Varly remains the same: go high glove. In fact, he's been beaten there a couple of times in his last three outings. After the jump we're going to take a closer look at these goals to get a better understanding of just why savvy shooters are picking that spot to snipe.
Here's Nicklas Bergfors' first goal from November 4's game in Newark:
Nice shot. But let's slow things down a bit (via YouTube). As Bergfors winds up, Varlamov is in good position - square with his glove high:
But as the shot is released and Varly drops into his butterfly, he drops his glove:
He can't recover. 2-1 Devils.
Fast forward a week to Varlamov's nearly flawless relief appearance against the Isles. Nearly flawless:
Trent Hunter's power-play rocket tied the game at four with just over two minutes left in regulation. Varly never had a chance. But could he have?
Again, via YouTube, we see Varly readying for the shot as he did for Bergfors' blast - with his glove high:
But, just as on the Bergfors tally, as he drops into his butterfly, he drops his glove:
The shot goes upstairs and the game goes to overtime.
These two goals demonstrate that when pucks are flying at nearly 100 miles per hour, the extra movement of having to raise one's glove back to the position it was in a fraction of a second prior can be the difference between a save and a goal. The goalie who minimizes his movement here probably minimizes his goals against average as well.
This isn't to say that Varlamov hasn't made highlight-worthy glove saves - he has. And his recent record and numbers would seem to indicate that if there is indeed a book on him, perhaps not everyone's reading it.
But these are just two examples of a fixable technical problem in his game. The good news is that one would think it's correctable. Time to coach him up, Archie.
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This is fantastic analysis, an example of why we read the Rink. I mean, where else…
by TylerG on Nov 17, 2009 11:06 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Amen. Well done J.P.
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Nov 17, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
Keep in mind that in a perfect world, the butterfly keeps the arms tucked in close to the body, presenting the largest blocking surface to the puck (chest and arms forming a ‘wall’). Unfortunately, that means keeping the glove low. Forty’s pretty much telling the shooter “if you can snipe that small spot over my shoulder before I can get there, it’s yours.” If he carries the glove higher and gets to those pucks but starts letting in the 7 hole (armpit) shots, he’ll be criticized for that too. Pick your poison.
by Kewibr on Nov 17, 2009 11:09 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Interesting point. And something I’ve never thought of…not knowing the intricacies of playing keeper. For the record, I think I’d rather see 7 hole goals in lieu of high glove as I think even with the glove up, the 7 hole is a tougher shot.
7 hole is a tougher shot.
I would tend to disagree on that, I think many shots attempting top shelf don’t get up enough and are at 7 hole height (far more than those aiming for 7 hole and “miss” top shelf).
I’m of the opinion that a goalie is supposed to be a unbroken wall of pads in the most centered position to the shooter and that you give them the areas where they’ll have to make a perfect shot (top shelf and far post) and don’t give them any holes if they miss that perfect spot.
DC, where Hockey is a baffling ordeal.
by Chris meet Alex on Nov 17, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly. Take a look at a ‘super goalie’: Roberto Luongo. You rarely see him making that high glove save, but everything hits him in the upper body. The only reason you don’t see more high shots go in on him is that he’s 6’3" and his shoulder gets in the way more than Varly’s.
Or look at King Henrik. The “book” on him is high glove also. That doesn’t mean he’s easy to beat. It just means that’s the best place to try to beat him. I think lots of goalies suffer from the Varlamov low-glove issue. How many “awesome” glove saves do you see where the goalie had his glove about 2-3 feet off the ice and the shooter puts the puck in the glove? Lots of goalies are dropping their gloves now, especially in close. Varlamov definitely needs to keep his glove up, especially when the shooters are out where Bergfors and Hunter were, but I don’t think it’s an insurmountable problem (as J.P. notes).
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
Though it may appear to be a tougher snipe, a shot that hits you to the sides of your chest/stomach is very likely to slide between your side and arm. Keeping your elbows tucked in prevents that, but if not, it can be an easy goal for a shooter.
by Mobsky on Nov 17, 2009 5:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This is a good point. The way that Varly takes away the corner isn’t by getting his glove back up to cover it. He covers that by taking a step toward the shooter and having his shoulder in that corner. The Bergfors goal, I’ll just give it too him, great shot and it couldn’t have been placed better. Varly seems like he’s in good position there, but the Hunter goal, notice how deep he is in the net. If he is out where he is on Bergfors’ goal, Hunter’s doesn’t go in.
"I think the relentless negative coverage in The Washington Post is a real difference from previous years," Redskins general counsel David Donovan said. "But in terms of the way our actual fans are behaving, we don't see any difference."
This is one of the reasons I detest pure butterfly. Butterfly works well, but it’s playing percentages. And while playing percentages is fine, if you have reaction skills like Varly seems to..I dunno, I think maybe there’s a better option (hybrid, maybe, but that’s a toughie). I also think goalies who play pure butterfly are asking for knee issues later in their careers, though I don’t think there’s any evidence yet to support this.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
I think hip issues are where the problems come from playing butterfly. It’s really not that bad on the knees.
I don’t like how butterfly has been labeled as a style for guys that use it for 80% of their saves. Butterfly is a save selection, not a style. Each goalie should pick a save that matches what needs to be done to make the save. BUT, if they have to just guess, which they sometimes do since some shots at certain distances are impossible for a human to react to, I’d rather them play a percentage than do a cartwheel or stand still.
In my opinion there are two styles blocking and reacting. Varly is a reacting first goalie, block second. Giggy is a blocking first, reacting second.
So you can detest it but it doesn’t make any sense since it’s just a save. You probably mean something more along the lines of hating blocking goalies.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
I probably more mean that I don’t agree with the mindset of playing percentages when a stick save or a glove save has better rebound control and you’re watching where the puck comes. I guess that’s what you mean, but I disagree on the mindset – butterfly is definitely a style. I’ll agree it can also be used for a save selection, but some goalies butterfly first and ask questions later, and work almost exclusively out of the butterfly. I’d call that a style. And I don’t like it.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
That’s what I’m saying. You don’t like goalies that are just trying to block shots instead of reacting to the shot and making a save. Blocking goalies play percentages first and then try to react to the shot, if possible.
Both goalies that are reaction first goalies and are blocking first goalies use the butterfly but it’s just another tool in the bag, not a style.
Goaltending is a game of percentages though. That’s a constant no matter how one is playing.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
I’ll have to agree to disagree, because I’ll grant you it’s definitely a tool, which i said, but at the same time, it’s also a style, because how else do you separate it from stand up? (Note, I played goalie for 13 years, but haven’t in a while). I get what you’re saying, seriously, about blocking versus reacting, but the mindset of dropping to your knees on 90% of shots or dropping to your knees on 40%, using your stick to push the puck into a corner or whatever is a difference in personal style, in my opinion. That’s all I’m saying.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
I’m with you, it’s all matter of opinion. I just don’t like the label because I think all modern goalies are hybrid, where as long ago they really were stand-up because they never went down.
Are you a butterfly goalie if you use a butterfly save selection on 90% of shots? To you yes, to me no.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
So do you characterize any goalies as butterfly goalies? Or do you stick to the “blocking v. reacting” dichotomy when you describe them?
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
I tend not to lump goalies like that when I talk about them with people. If it were a discussion like this I’d probably talk about blocking reacting. If I’m at a bar I might say butterfly so it conveys the idea. Not sure.
It’s just like how announcers say, “Oh, he wasn’t square to the shooter. He needs to square up.” Wtf? The goalie should never be square to the shooter, only the puck.
Some things are just said wrong so much they become accepted. Like, “He was offsides.” Now the bfly\hyb thing is even in video games describing the goalies.
Anyway, it’s all a matter of opinion I just happen to be grated by that one and since we are in a goalie specific thread I thought I’d expound on that.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
To your point – I always laughed when people called Hasek a flopper. Total disregard for the man’s intellect and skill. He was a “do what needs to be done” goalie. I realize the fact is he and his body were special and impossible to copy. However, the point is he did what worked for his situation.
A man gotta have a code
Good points, particularly from a technical perdspective. My belief is that all good goalies have holes, it’s not being predictable that separates the good from the great. Right now, Varly is exceptional down low but he has to learn that not every shot requires him to be in the butterfly. Once he figures out how to change up his stances and not go into the butterfly so quickly, his glove hand will start looking even better. If I recall, Kolzig had the same issue. Also, a lot of this comes from experience and being to develop his own “book” on the shooters. He’s an exceptional talent and the more he plays the better he’ll get. BTW, that shot by Trent Hunter beats 99% of the goalies in the league.
THAT is the key. His reaction time is probably in the top 5 of NHL goalies. If he stays up on those shots, the puck hits his glove. He’s just a new-school ‘butterfly on everything’ goalie. Once he learns he can wait that extra second (or 100th of a second) to see if it’s a high or low shot, those goals will end quickly.
Yes, but then you’ll start getting on him for giving up too many five hole goals.
And also yes, the Trent Hunter shot was really good. The Bergfors shot, not so much. I think that one shows more that he was still moving too much laterally and his natural way to “control” the movement led to him dropping the glove down further. But it’s clear that it’s a tendency he has anyways.
For a little shooter-side perspective, go here and read the first few paragraphs as a rookie Nicklas Backstrom, playing his first game under a new head coach, works veteran goalie Marty Biron.
SO FЯIENDS, IS BATTLE NOW.
Better question to ask
Where are those guys on the other teams shooting at our goalie unmolested? Too many gliders.
Void Boyd! Go with Perreault!
High glove is the hole on every butterfly goalie who has played the sport. It’s a little different on the other side, since the stick acts as something of an anchor. Because you are covering (presumably) the five hole, there is only so much movement you can have on that side. If Varlamov (or any butterfly goalie) maintains his glove position when going into the spread, then he has a gap between glove and pad, under the arm. The whole notion of a butterfly is to take away the bottom two-thirds of the net. If a shooter like Trent Hunter can find the high-glove, just under the crossbar, well… that shot is almost always going to be there. Fortunately, not many guys can hit that spot in motion with a defender bearing down.
Could Varlamov be better? Absolutely. Will he get better? Probably. Will he get so good that the hole isn’t there? Not a chance.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Nov 17, 2009 11:26 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
The whole notion of a butterfly is to take away the bottom two-thirds of the net.
this is what lundqvist does so well. if you can roof it from deep, then congratulations. but it takes a remarkable shot, and gets in the offensive player’s head…“the only way i’m beating this guy is if i make the perfect shot.”
by Natty Bumppo on Nov 17, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
Natty — you called Ovechkin’s shot tonight!
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 18, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
i don’t think it’s possible to get in AO’s head.. :)
by Natty Bumppo on Nov 18, 2009 2:34 AM EST up reply actions
If it takes a one in 10 shot, Ovi will just shoot it 10 times…
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 18, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Someone’s a Ron Jaworski fan. Love the film room aspect of this.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
But it needs more MS Paint. (Had to know that was coming)
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Rob Parker on Nov 17, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Oh yeah, not any less rec’d either.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 17, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
Same book on most other butterfly goalies
This is a great post – thanks! My high school goalie son will especially love this, since he, and most other butterfly goalies, typically do the very same thing – as they drop to their knees, their gloves and blockers follow — they’re taught to take away the low shots, after all. Varly’s glove drop is more pronounced than some, so you’re right, if he fixes that, his .946 recent save percentage will inch closer to 1.000.
Semyon Varlamov – the only NHL goaltender with a weak glove hand.
But Brawndo's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes.
by hotdog88gt on Nov 17, 2009 11:34 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I’d be willing to wager there are some other goalies where the book says go glove.
Russian Machine very rarely breaks.
Including one of the best. But I think that comment you responded to was sarcastic.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
The same book is out on Hendrik...
The islanders got shots to that exact same corner from that same general area of the ice 4 times if I call correctly.
The set position for the butterfly is with the glove and blocker close to the sides of the body because it takes up the most net with the least amount of holes. Also, if the angle\depth\squareness is set correctly the puck has a good chance of hitting the goalie since the puck has to move at an upward angle.
The shooter actually has much less room to put the puck there that it looks like.
Some goalies, like Luongo keep their glove lower in their stance so they only ever need to move it in one direction (UP). Varly, like a lot of younger goalies, has a high glove position. This means every shot he needs to move his glove down, keep it in the same place, or up.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
I posted this 20 minutes ago and it just showed up. Think my internet is wonky today…
So pretty much what Peerless said although I think I covered some stuff others didn’t. I also have some cool graphs I’m looking for that I’ll post up.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
posted this 20 minutes ago and it just showed up. Think my internet is wonky today
Definitely issues goin on here… probably all those YouTube videos clogging up the series of tubes.
DC, where Hockey is a baffling ordeal.
by Chris meet Alex on Nov 17, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
I believe they call the high glove position ‘active hands’…the glove hand actually sticks out from the body toward the shooter, taking up even more angle. Whoever taught Varly his butterfly clearly focused on angles, explosiveness and reaction time and less on the hands. He has the natural quickness to get to some of those shots, and at least makes a movement toward the puck with the glove (which is more than I can say for Theodore, who often makes his first glove movement as the puck is passing him on its way out of the net).
Not to be confused with “jazz hands”
Void Boyd! Go with Perreault!
by jordanDC on Nov 17, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Active hands isn’t keeping your glove high.
Active hands the glove and blocker are out and away from the body so they can be seen in the periphery and the arms aren’t as straight. This leaves more of a hole between the top of the pads, the side of the body and the hands.
Compact hands is where the hands are out a bit from the body but the arms are more straight leaving no holes.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
He practices active hands a lot but his actual glove positioning is called “Fingers Up.” Should have included that in my post.
And you weren’t babbling, rest of your post seems pretty spot on.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
You seem to know a lot about this stuff. Is there a resource out there that could help the less informed like myself?
"If you're gonna die after 24, might as well jump out at 23:59, no?"
by Laich It Or Lump It on Nov 17, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
I’m writing a fan post right now that will cover a lot and anyone can ask questions and the goalies here can chip in and answer.
There isn’t one set place that I know of. I’ve been learning goaltending like it’s my job for a long time.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
Cool. I’ll definitely check it out when you post it.
"If you're gonna die after 24, might as well jump out at 23:59, no?"
by Laich It Or Lump It on Nov 17, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Lickin’ my chops…
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
Ha. I don’t give the facial hair. If Sealab 2021 didn’t do it I won’t.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
I’ve been looking at the USA Hockey Coaching Manuals they provide free online, and the unfortunately cover the ‘butterfly’ by teaching the Patrick Roy method…not a true butterfly. They also use very outdated terms and concepts. I’d be interested in zephyr’s fan post when it’s out.
Is this what you mean? I can’t find a specific goalie manual. Which one did you look at?
"If you're gonna die after 24, might as well jump out at 23:59, no?"
by Laich It Or Lump It on Nov 17, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
I think we’d all be pretty happy if three seasons from now the “book” on Varly or Neuvrith were identical to the book on either Luongo or Lundqvist and I’m pretty sure the Caps would be in possession of some pretty solid records from those seasons as well ;→
by markbona-capsfan99 on Nov 17, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
High glove is a luxury
Keeping your glove high, with some separation between the pad and the glove, is a luxury that can only be indulged with excellent sight lines. Through a partial or full screen, the emphasis is on taking away the bottom two thirds. I’m sure Arturs will remind him to “Listen to his glove” i.e. keep it near his ear, but I don’t see a large technical error here.
Another way to think about it is that we are experiencing a selection effect – NHL goals tend to go in the places goalies can’t/shouldn’t cover. If goalies simply put their gear where they were giving up the most goals, they’d be standing, feet spread to the corners, with their arms spread just under the crossbar.
by ProfessorShutOut on Nov 17, 2009 11:51 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Wish I could Rec the whole conversation… more knowledge from goalies! Us “skaters” (always thought that was a bit of a slight that you goalie’s are nice enough to put up with) could us it!
DC, where Hockey is a baffling ordeal.
by Chris meet Alex on Nov 17, 2009 11:59 AM EST reply actions
I think playing goal for a few years made me a better player…taught me where the holes are, what a goalie is looking at, etc. I highly recommed borrowing the pads a few times and taking in some pick-up time.
Maybe a stick and shoot, the pickups around here aren’t going to take too kindly to a first-timer in goal
DC, where Hockey is a baffling ordeal.
by Chris meet Alex on Nov 17, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
I highly recommend borrowing the pads a few times and taking in some pick-up time.
Absolutely. You need the right context and (initially welcoming) competition to be able to pull it off, but it opens up a new world, and alternating between goalie and shooter over time becomes like its own Socratic debate. As a shooter, you learn much more about what a goalie sees, how different moves work/don’t work, and what physical demands exist on him.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
Wish I could Rec the whole conversation…
Agreed. Some serious knowledge drop in the comments. I learned a lot.
"If you're gonna die after 24, might as well jump out at 23:59, no?"
by Laich It Or Lump It on Nov 17, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, thanks everyone who’s constructively contributing to this discussion – it’s hugely informative. I guess I was just trying to point out an exaggerated hitch in his giddy-up that I noticed a couple of times in the past three games, but this discussion has really helped expand on the issue.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
This would be easier if CSN had those super slo-mo cams like the Kings and other teams out west have.
Void Boyd! Go with Perreault!
You mean there’s more use for a high speed cam than this…
Hard to believe.
DC, where Hockey is a baffling ordeal.
by Chris meet Alex on Nov 17, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Mythbusters making a rocket out of a hot water heater.
DC, where Hockey is a baffling ordeal.
by Chris meet Alex on Nov 17, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah that was an awesome episode, hot tip… Don’t disable the safety features on your hot water heater (which is all they did) and it flow a 100+ feet in the air and made kindling out of the “house” they built aroud it. Amazing stuff.
DC, where Hockey is a baffling ordeal.
by Chris meet Alex on Nov 17, 2009 1:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think one of them got up to about 500 feet, due to the time it took to fall back to earth (nearly 40 seconds if I recall…)
Always keep your hot water heater well maintained…
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Your method of throwing everything to the wall and hoping it sticks has downsides like that. =]
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
One of the most beautiful things...
…ever filmed…
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 17, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
it really was… the high speed was much more interesting than the explosions they normally show (which are pretty excellent themselves).
DC, where Hockey is a baffling ordeal.
by Chris meet Alex on Nov 17, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
They need to get a set of these camera’s I guess. Sorry for the redskins link, but this camera and film was really interesting.
by HateOffSeason on Nov 17, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure where that link went.
http://blog.redskins.com/2009/09/15/redskins-in-super-slow-motion/
by HateOffSeason on Nov 17, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
(I mentioned in the GDT that Theo did the same thing with his glove on Langenbrunner’s goal. I was hoping you’d call him out for it but then he played so crappy the rest of the way that you just summed it up with “he stunk” or a reasonable facsimile. Just saying this bug is going around the NHL.)
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
Look at this image…
Compare that with Varlamov. Is the latter in a crouch, even in his butterfly, compared the more “straight-backed” style of Brent Johnson? If he’s hunched over, he’s giving away a few inches on the top side, in addition to being down on the ice.
If you've read this far...seek help.
Not sure how useful that pic is out of context, though. How are his sightlines? Is the shooter in his windup or has he released his shot (kinda looks like the pucks already to Johnny, from Pothier’s eyes)? What the hell is Erskine looking at?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
A nekkid picture of Stan Fischler?
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Nov 17, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
What the hell is Erskine looking at?
A guy he can clear out of the crease two seconds after the play’s over?
by David Getz on Nov 17, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
glove high
Just aout every player in the nhl trys to shoot glove high on a butterfly goaltender from that side for the very reason that some goalies to drop there glove and cant react in time thats not completely varly’s fault but the sign of why these shooters are in the nhl in the first place.
Great analysis JP and a fantastic discussion. The Rink is hands down the best place to go for Caps talk.
Is there a website that displays charts or numbers telling us where goals are scored against each goaltender in the NHL? I’d be very curious to see how Varly’s glove hand compares to the league’s best.
There used to be some data (and it helped me put together this post). But sadly, I don’t believe that data is collected any more.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Bwhaha,
But for Kolzig it’s a particularly vulnerable region. In fact (and you may want to look away for a minute), only Sean Burke, Robert Esche, Jose Theodore and Marc Denis had worse Zone 2 save percentages last year. That’s not the kind of company a goalie wants to keep.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
Does zone 2 mean top right corner from the shooter’s perspective or goalie’s glove hand? If it’s the former that means you’re talking Theo’s blocker against Kolzig’s glove.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
I think “Zone 2” is glove hand, regardless of which hand that is.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I wonder how the chart accounted for all the shots Kolzig was on the other side of the crease for in his last season.
So brutal.
He’d just give up on shots and wave at them. Those were tough times.
Void Boyd! Go with Perreault!
Talk to Ron Wilson…I remember him holding a Chalk Talk for local coaches at VC where he whipped out a program on his laptop that charted every shot for every goalie in the league. Wish I had one of those…
I’m sorry that may not have contributed constructively to the thread. I just have a soft spot for goalies. I’m sure Irbe is aware of “the book” on SV40, and that’s good enough for me. Arturs is paid to coach Semyon, and it’s up to Semyon to correct his shortcomings.
But Brawndo's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes.
Since I’m writing a more basic fanpost and won’t get to puck trajectory or hand placement for a few days and this is fresh in everyone’s minds I wanted to offer this up for everyone.
Other than the occasional “bat” in 75% of all shots and deflections go towards the very bottom 32" of the net. On this principle, and the puck sight-lines you see in the diagram above, goalies derive their basic “ready” stance as well as the butterfly.
The maximum rise once the puck hits the top of the crease is 41.5 inches. So if the goaltender can go down and be that tall they are taking away a lot of the net and their hands have less distance to travel to make any saves.
This really makes you think about what looks like goalies getting beat over the shoulder, etc. It also causes one of the subjects most debated in the goaltending community, “glove placement.”
Varlamov practices what is called a fingers up glove positioning using an active hands method. Fingers up refers to the glove naturally starting in a 1:00 to 2:00 position. More traditional glove positioning is from 3:00 to 5:00. (If you see a goalie using a 9:00 there might be problems =)
The fingers up position is really bad for shots from 20ft to 25ft.
At this point please scroll up and look at where all the shooters are shooting on these goals going in glove side on Varly.
Now look at the diagram and you can see where the faceoff dot resides in relation to the distance from the net and look at the puck trajectories from there to the top of the net.
Oh wow. =]
A 3:00 to 5:00 is more netrual to shots taken from anywhere. A 1:00 to 2:00 position is better for all shots over 25ft but requires more downward movement to make an initial save after that because the glove loses squareness to the puck.
Kudos to Mind The Net goaltending school for the graph.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
by zephyr on Nov 17, 2009 1:03 PM EST reply actions 8 recs
Damn, Zeph. Great job. If it’s going to be in your fanpost then ignore my question, but why is the 1-2:00 particularly bad from 20-25 ft specifically?
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
Man, I typed out a response to you and then replied to something else and it got wiped out =\
I sort have why at the bottom of that post but…
Basically, it’s not good because of how the glove loses squareness to the puck based on the trajectories from that specific shot marker. So the glove has to be moved more to make saves than if it was in a more neutral area. More moving = more time. I also think that the 1-2 position covers less net that a 3-5 position in ready stance.
You can see that Varly brings the glove down into a 4 position on top of his pad when bflying. A guy in his ready stance, who already has his glove like that, has less movement to make.
This is all debatable and theoretical but it’s something I’m a believer in. I’m still trying to find some cool shadow sketchups showing the percentage of the net covered from different puck distances based on glove positioning in stance and butterfly.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
Great stuff. I just thought it was weird that the 20-25 marker was the un-sweet spot for 1:00-2:00. That basically makes the effectiveness of the 1-2:00 position bimodal, which I guess just strikes me as odd. Looking forward to the fanshot. Maybe one day I will be competent to coach goalies…
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
Goalies need to be comfortable. The biggest thing with the glove is just to make sure it’s open and square to the puck.
Varly is comfortable with a fingers up position so that’s what he should be doing. He probably feels more comfortable and confident with the glove up.
When goalies are young you can get them to try different things and set good habits that feel natural later in life.
The one thing I like about fingers up a lot is that the top of the net looks very covered from the shooters perspective. But goalies are always thinking about the eyes on the puck.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
One other goalie topic that has been discussed as it relates to styles is a goalie’s size. That might need a fanpost all its own.
A man gotta have a code
Related to size, smaller goalies can do just fine. Your shoulder height only needs to be as tall as 3.5 ft when down in butterfly at the top of the crease to cover the net well.
The shorter a goalie is, generally the more they challenge and have an aggressive depth to take off angles.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
Spot on. Bigger guys tend to challenge less and sit back a bit more because they cover more of the net .
A man gotta have a code
That took me a long time to learn. I would try to challenge, and, though I learned to hate, I modeled my game mostly after Hextall and Potvin, and would challenge a lot (I’m 6’2"). It burned me when I got taller, because I wasn’t fast enough to recover on those cross ice back doors, and I had a few holes that I think with my size I could have sat back on and covered. I need to get back into this >_<.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
by Whiter Mage on Nov 17, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
I thought Potvin’s problem was sitting too deep in his net? Was that just early in his career?
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
I don’t know what it is about that graphic that immediately makes me want to watch this.
Russian Machine very rarely breaks.
Irbe
Has anyone spoken to/gotten an autograph from Archie? Used to love watching him when he played and I heard he is your goalie coach now. If I see him, should I bother?
I have a blog too! www.scottyhockey.com
Let's Go Rangers!
he seemed approachable enough at the convention. He’d probably love it, even more if you got him to tell one of his stories. He loves to talk almost as much as Bruce.
Great – A Zapruder film on Varly.
Thanks JP – now Varly will be Jim Carey’ed out o’ the NHL in 2 years.
According to Puck Daddy comments
We’re all a bunch of donks.
On the Japer’s Rink site, it’s funny how many people have the wrong opinion on goaltending styles. As someone who used to be a goaltender, the correct position for the hand is low, just like in baseball. It is quicker and easier to bring your glove upwards then to put it down. If you do not keep your glove low it allows shooters to go under your arm/over your pad. That is higher percentage shot than trying to roof the puck under the cross bar beating the glove hand.
In short, Varly is doing the right thing keeping his glove low, I just think he has either slow reaction time with the glove, or difficulty seeing the puck (problem with his vision).
Void Boyd! Go with Perreault!
I think that was a pretty intelligent post for puckdaddy. He didn’t call anyone donks or even imply it he just said that a lot of people here don’t agree with his particular opinion on goaltending.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
But he said that OUR knowledgeable guys have ‘wrong opinions.’ That rubs me the wrong way and implies that there’s only one way to be a successful goalie. Clearly such is not the case.
Void Boyd! Go with Perreault!
Yeah, ‘wrong opinion’ is an oxymoron. Plus it’s still possible to keep your glove too low.
But as a whole I think that comment is more than fair and offers a pretty decent perspective.
by David Getz on Nov 17, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s pretty similar to some of the thought/comments here. And, of course, relative to typical Puck Daddy comments, it’s Nobel Prize-worthy.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Is Varly’s glove dropping like a hitch in a baseball swing? If he’s gonna move it down there, why not start it down there. That way he only has to move up to cover that corner rather than down then back up.
And relevant to not much, the only person on a baseball diamond that is inside the blueline is the pitcher.
"I think the relentless negative coverage in The Washington Post is a real difference from previous years," Redskins general counsel David Donovan said. "But in terms of the way our actual fans are behaving, we don't see any difference."
Is Varly’s glove dropping like a hitch in a baseball swing?
I think that goes beyond my realm of expertise, but I think you can make a case for Varly pulling the glove in too low and too tight as his instinct. When I played in net growing up I’d keep it really low and tight to my body if I was going in to the butterfly to try and stop a screened shot or if I had to quickly move laterally, but I’d keep it a little higher and further from my body otherwise since an shot I had a clear view of probably wasn’t going to slip in the tiny seven hole opening I was leaving there and it helped me get more pucks in the top corner. But then, I never faced NHL caliber shooters.
I was always taught to keep my glove lower for the same reason, but as I got older and my glove speed wasn’t so quick relative to my competition I realized that keeping it too low is just as big of a problem as keeping it too high. It is true that it is easier to move your glove up than down, but at some point it is still quicker to move the glove down a little for a save than to have to move it all the way up if someone shoots at the top corner, so I had to adjust to some middle ground (which is very difficult once you get comfortable with a stance). Also, as mentioned by Zephyr before, if you are going to drop your glove down in the butterfly anyway you are probably better off not carrying it so high to begin with so as to limit movement.
But this is just my opinion as someone who learned to keep the glove lower and never really felt comfortable with the fingers up stance.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 17, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
I was taught “Elbow in, glove at 2 o’clock.” I didn’t ever have a straight “Goaltending coach” though.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
by Whiter Mage on Nov 17, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
Neither did I.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 18, 2009 2:12 AM EST up reply actions
Hey, just because he enjoyed an alternative lifestyle doesn’t mean he didn’t know goaltending.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 18, 2009 9:14 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Such an articulate comment doesn’t belong on PD. If he really has a point to add he should be bringing it here and not throwing it on a garbage heap.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
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| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Florida
|
50 | 24 | 15 | 11 | 59 |
|
Washington
|
50 | 26 | 20 | 4 | 56 |
|
Winnipeg
|
53 | 24 | 23 | 6 | 54 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
50 | 22 | 23 | 5 | 49 |
|
Carolina
|
53 | 19 | 25 | 9 | 47 |
(updated 2.4.2012 at 8:30 AM EST)
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