The Noon Number
1021 - The Caps' all-situation PDO1 under Dale Hunter, via 9.9 shooting (83 for 835) and .922 (940 for 1020) save percentages.
As a point of reference, only three teams have higher PDOs over the course of the 2011-12 campaign so far - the New York Rangers (1030), Boston Bruins (1029) and Vancouver Canucks (1023) - and Hunter's Caps would rank fifth in shooting percentage and sixth in save percentage if compared to the rest of the NHL, season-to-date. The three teams ahead of the Caps have a combined record of 104-45-13; the Caps under Hunter are 16-13-4.
As a further point of reference, Bruce Boudreau's 2011-12 Caps had a PDO of 992 (10.2 Sh%, .890 Sv%) on the heels of a 2010-11 PDO of 1005 (8.5 Sh%, .920 Sv%) and a 2009-10 PDO of 1027 (11.6 Sh%, .910 Sv%).
1 PDO is 1,000*(S%+SV%), and generally tends to regress to 1,000. For some more thoughts on the metric, head over to Arctic Ice Hockey here, here and here and, for a somewhat contrary view, Hockey Analysis.
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Since I’m useless when it comes to advanced stats, I’ll be the one to ask the stupid question.
These are great stats and the Caps are snakebit?
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
Kinda the opposite – they’ve been very lucky with those percentages but haven’t been able to do much with it because of the possession (shot) and special teams differentials.
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My take? “This is all they have been able to do with some pretty outstanding puck luck? It could get real ugly once that luck runs out…”
But feel free to take the optimistic read: “Dale Hunter is, just a handful of games into his first season coaching professional hockey, a phenomenal head coach whose team has been able to drive up both shooting and save percentages, and it’s only a matter of time before they turn around the possession numbers and start dominating the League.”
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but the shots for and scoring chances for are both up over the last couple of games? That could very well result in shooting percentage decreasing while increasing the goal totals.
I’d expect the save percentage component to stick where it is right now, as Vokoun’s save percentage has tended to hang in that area throughout his career.
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Yeah, the shots-for have been up (I personally don’t have scoring chance data). And shot percentage down. In other words… regression. So the only way to hold output constant (or increase it) during the regression is via increased shot totals and that only happens with better possession (which they’ve had lately).
Point being, if the possession numbers don’t get better (as they have started to lately) and the regression hits, it gets ugly, which is what we’ve been saying all along.
Similar on the goaltending/shots-against side, of course.
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(Yes, I do recognize that there’s a second goalie who is, in fact, starting tonight, and yes, I do recognize that he’s a .910-save-percentage goalie, but I have to imagine Vokoun is getting the bulk of the starts from here on out.)
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Well… he did make Steve Mason a champion.
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by Rob Parker on Feb 13, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Any idea why Knuble is anchored to the pressbox?
I’ve been critical too, but his size & toughness might help against SJS-non?
by ShootTheBullets on Feb 13, 2012 12:12 PM EST reply actions
In what sense? If he’s not using size and toughness to produce then what’s the value? DJ King provides size and toughness.
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He does go to the net & can actually camp out there while being abused-Power Play?. If you’re thinking about dealing him not playing him doesn’t make sense.
by ShootTheBullets on Feb 13, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe the rest of the GMs see what GMGM and both coaches have seen and he has no trade value.
How has camping at the net worked for him so far this season?
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I’ll grant you it’s inexplicable unless he’s just finally hit the age “wall”. We’re not getting many SOG either, but have done slightly better this week. (grasping at straws)
How can he be much worse than Ward?
by ShootTheBullets on Feb 13, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Knuble’s perceived strengths aren’t really useful when the team can’t get it out of their zone and are frequently “one shot wide and done” on offense.
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by apk3000 on Feb 13, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Let me put it another way – if the Caps had been a 1000 PDO team under Hunter, their goal differential (currently +3 under Dale) would be 21 goals worse, or -18. That’s more than half a goal per game… and would likely have meant we’d already be resigned to them missing the playoffs.
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by J.P. on Feb 13, 2012 12:12 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Unless Green returns & we make a run (with a PP not a liability) pronto we’re toast anyhow.
by ShootTheBullets on Feb 13, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Is team PDO really a measure of puck luck, or a measure of shooting & goalie skill. I suspect, in the Caps’ case at least, it’s the latter—-the Caps have two good goalies and a bunch of good shooters.
Too bad the team’s current offensive and defensive philosophies result in the team getting outshot routinely.
Is team PDO really a measure of puck luck, or a measure of shooting & goalie skill. I suspect, in the Caps’ case at least, it’s the latter.
Wow, I really disagree with this. I expected that last word to be “former.” Yes, they’ve got one goalie who’s playing well, but I don’t think their finishers are exceptional, on the whole, by any means.
Look at the three teams ahead of the Caps – NYR, BOS and VAN. I could buy that those teams are doing things in the offensive and/or defensive ends that, along with personnel, are driving shot and save percentages up… but would you put Hunter’s Caps in that group of teams as doing a lot of things well? I sure wouldn’t. I think Hunter’s Caps have been awfully fortunate in many ways.
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I like to think of it in terms on +/-. Not the hockey stat, but the “holy crap how did that puck not go in” or “how did he not stop that?” (flukey goals for + insane saves by our goalies + other team’s guy misses an easy one) – (flukey flukey goals against + insane save by their goalies + our guy misses an easy one).
I’d guess if we went back and looked at the film, we haven’t had many “+” games by this measure lately.
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by iwearstripes on Feb 13, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think this is a case where we both have the same general opinion, but we differ in the details. I completely agree about the Caps not doing a lot of things well, especially in the offensive end.
But with that said, I do think they’ve got good shooters: they can “break a lot of plates” (in the sense of the old target-shooting drill), both close in and further out. The problem is they don’t get a lot of shots at the plates—-sustained offensive possessions with a flurry of shots from quality scoring areas. So, yeah, they stink out loud on the offensive end, but simple marksmanship isn’t the problem. Hence a decent shooting% and PDO.
A tangent: Can we ban the notion that teams in scoring slumps need to “go to the net more”? No, there’s a lot more that needs to be done than just going to the net.
In reading some of the links on PDO, there are a few instances in which people are discussing players who are playing below the “average” hopefully “regressing” to the mean. Does anyone else take issue with that terminology? If you’re performing below the mean, and you start performing closer to the mean, haven’t you progressed to the mean?
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Like the fact that it’s billed as a statistic that measures almost 100% luck?
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by iwearstripes on Feb 13, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
Ha. There is literally no skill involved in PDO.
I also think it’s a breakthrough of epic proportions to recognize that Steve Mason singlehandedly drives up the CBJ shooting% and Tim Thomas drives down the Bruins’ Shooting%. Steve Mason doesn’t look so bad when you consider that…
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My head hurts.
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by iwearstripes on Feb 13, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
You can look at this one of several ways:
*The Caps were very unlucky under Boudreau
*The Caps have been very lucky under Hunter
*The Caps were unlucky under Boudreau and have returned to a more normal “luck distribution” under Hunter – since 1021 is much more in-line with the Caps’ past PDOs.
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Agreed, agreed and disagreed – 1021 is still waaaaay above their past PDOs, save 2009-10, which was just a ridiculous season. I think they were very unlucky under Bruce and have been pretty lucky under Dale.
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I miss 2009. Fun hockey. At this point, I’m looking forward to seeing Kuz next year, and hopefully having the team suck less due to a full off-season for Hunter and the gang.
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I miss 2009 until I think about the playoffs.
It was time to move the team in a new direction.
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a new direction that best I can tell has yielded the exact same results—and now worse results. I think everyone knows my feelings on the playoffs and I won’t rehash it.
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The one ray of hope I can see is that perhaps the Caps’ are starting to get a better handle on the system over the last five games. They’ve been getting more SOG and not getting killed in the shot differential dept., excluding the Florida and Montreal games which they won in blowout fashion.
I put this in the same basket as Neil’s 17.4% number from the Clips today: if the Caps continue to play as they have played, they aren’t a very good team and they most likely don’t make the playoffs. That much was pretty evident to anyone who watched the games with even a hint of objectivity. You just don’t win many games when you get fewer than 20 shots.
I do think there’s some nuance that you can add to the analysis, though. They were horrid, just putrid, at the start of Hunter’s tenure. I feel like they’ve played a bit better in the last 3-5 games. Are they trending up? Or is it just a blip?
But as to the basic premise of the stat, that the Caps have had a good helping of puck luck during DH’s tenure, yes that agrees with what my eyes have told me.
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I do think there’s some nuance that you can add to the analysis, though. They were horrid, just putrid, at the start of Hunter’s tenure. I feel like they’ve played a bit better in the last 3-5 games. Are they trending up? Or is it just a blip?
Well, in their last 10 games, PDO is only 1009. So, less luck… but also fewer wins (just three). (In their last five, PDO is 1027, last three is 1044.)
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More perspective on this PDO -
Caps PDO in the MTL playoff series was 972. (Ugh). That means that MTL’s PDO was was 1028. And they did that with a 10.4 Sh% and a .925 Sv%. Hunter’s Caps are at 9.9/.922 for a PDO of 1021.
In other words, over 1,000 shots-for, those Habs would have seen four more shots go in; over 1,000 shots-against, those Habs would have made three more saves. Over 2,000 shots on goal, those Habs would have seen 7 more shots go in their favor than Hunter’s Caps have.
2,000 shots is roughly 36 games based on Hunter’s average total SOG/game so far.
So seven goals in 36 games, or one every five games.
Meaning that Hunter’s Caps have only been slightly less puck-lucky than the Habs in that seven-game series, a series in which most observers had Montreal as incredibly lucky to have won, given the shot differentials.
In many ways, those Habs were what Dale’s Caps have been. It’s really not a recipe for long-term success.
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Help me understand.
You point out in your post that only the Rangers, Bruins and Canucks have a higher PDO.
Pardon my ignorance, but are they puck-lucky as well? What’s the difference between a high PDO being due to good performance and being due to puck luck?
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Well… that’s a really, really big question, and I’m not sure you could get a satisfying answer to it.
The staterati would almost certainly say that those teams are getting very lucky, that they’re unsustainably high (though they might concede that we wouldn’t expect those teams to regress all the way to 1000).
But common sense says that those teams are doing some things “right” as well. Tim Thomas and Tukka Rask produce great SV% numbers (and whether or not the reason is the system is irrelevant) – does that mean that we should expect their forwards to finish at a much worse rate than average? How would that make sense?
The trick, of course, would be figuring out how much of that PDO is due to luck and how much is due to skill – what the “true PDO” for a team should be.
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Thanks.
So, the glass half-full answer is that Hunter’s system is on the right path, and the record will come around.
The glass half-empty answer is that the record is the truer reflection of the Caps’ abilities and the PDO, like many statistics, doesn’t really provide a complete picture.
Let’s plan to check back here in another year, and we might know more.
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For the Caps, they’re relying on stuff (high S% and SV%) that is notoriously unreliable and getting murdered on stuff (possession) that is more sustainable. That’s a tough way to win. The possession numbers have to come up if there’s going to be any real reason for optimism.
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The sv% might be able to stay around .920 or so, given the track record of both goalies and assuming Vokoun plays the bulk of the games from here on out. I really don’t know on the shooting%, though—depends on whether Ovechkin and Semin wake up and when Backstrom comes back, because those are the only three Caps with a track record of high on-ice shooting% (especially Semin).
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by red army line on Feb 13, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
BOS and VAN have higher Fenwick (close) percentages. The Rangers trail the Caps, 49.06 to 48.87, does that means that they are actually worse on possession?
In Fenwick (tied), the Caps actually have better numbers than VAN (51.21 to 49.93) and the Rangers too (49.07). Which also puts them ahead of FLA and PHI.
I’m not going to pretend I know what those numbers mean, but would seem to me that there are some that are benefitting more from luck than the Caps are.
And sorry, I’m not sold on the Rangers. If King Henry falls, so do they. BOS will eat their lunch.
by Gin and Tonic on Feb 13, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah the Caps and Fenwick are odd. Good tied, brutal not tied. I don’t really get it.
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Do you know what Fenwick (close) means?
by Gin and Tonic on Feb 13, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
Fenwick is all shots directed at the net minus blocks. I don’t know if there is a universal definition of “close” but I assume it’s any game that is within 1 or 2 goals.
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It’s actually more nuanced than that:
The word close refers to the score being within one goal in the first or second period, or a tied score in the third period or overtime.
Why is a one-goal game in the third period not considered “close”? I literally have no fucking clue.
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Because score effects kick in a lot harder in the 3rd period. If you want to get technical, it should probably include the first 10 minutes of the 3rd (that’s about where shots for really falls off a cliff when leading), but I suppose that creates script coding issues or something.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 13, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
Is there a way to adjust for score effects rather than ignoring parts of the game? Are there teams that can “beat” the score effects (i.e. teams that don’t see as drastic a drop in Corsi when leading, or are above league average in producing shots when trailing)?
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Eric T over at BSH took a shot at it:
http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2012/1/23/2722089/score-adjusted-fenwick
http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2012/1/23/2728052/current-score-adjusted-fenwick-standings
The formula’s clunky, but it makes sense.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 13, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
I suppose that makes sense (and obviously smarter men than I have deemed it such), but man, chucking out up to 1/3 of the possible data seems like a lot.
Then again, I watch AO on a nightly basis, so I can get behind differentiating most of the game from, “Holy shit, we might lose, time to start trying, you guys!”
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But then I’d also have to figure in the with/without Green and Backstrom too.
What I find more interesting is the steady decline of Fenwick (close) season to season. 07-08 (55.29), 08-09 (54.36), 09-10 (51.27), 10-11 (50.40), 11-12 (49.06).
I figure the dropoff from 08 to 09 might have something to do with losing Fedorov and lacking a defined 2C from that point until the present.
by Gin and Tonic on Feb 13, 2012 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
The Rangers full season numbers look terrible. They’ve been running at ~52% for months now.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 13, 2012 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
The driving play guys seem to think Mitchell isn’t responsible. I disagree having watched them, but it is what it is.
Certainly the Hagelin effect. Very weird how they just become possession demons after those two joined. Haven’t seen anything like it before.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 13, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
So THAT’S why we signed Hamrlik!
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by Bald Pollack on Feb 13, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
My head would probably explode if this team made it to the ECF based on what I’ve seen so far this season.
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by iwearstripes on Feb 13, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Caps PDO in the MTL playoff series was 972. (Ugh). That means that MTL’s PDO was was 1028. And they did that with a 10.4 Sh% and a .925 Sv%. Hunter’s Caps are at 9.9/.922 for a PDO of 1021.
Stands to reason. Outside of the FLA and MTL wins, the Caps have Halak’d their way to victory on the rare occasions that they’ve won under Hunter.
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Could it be that the Caps shooting% is high because they ONLY attempt to shoot when they’ve got a good chance? In other words, they’re not even trying (or able) to take shots that the opposing goalie would most likely save.
Could be a contributor, I suppose. Lord knows they would stand to benefit from just throwing the puck at the net at times. And they’ve got at least one player who seems to either pick a corner or miss the net with his shots, so there’s that, too.
But those things are more narrative than actual impact, I’d think.
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Optimism sort of
A PDO regression to the mean could be mitigated by improved puck possession numbers, right? So while we can expect a smaller % of Caps’ shots to go in, and a higher % of opponents’ shots to go in, things should even out if the Corsi/Fenwick ratios improve. And the Caps might have turned a corner the past few in the Corsi/Fenwick/scoring chance department.
Whether the corner has really been turned…
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So basically, the Caps’ shooting percentage and save percentage are supposed to go down b/c at a 1021 PDO – it is artifically high (or lucky)?
It doesnt mean anything
Regression to the mean is a very common theme around here and it is crap. The caps had a 1027 over a whole season. It might regress to the mean after like a thousand games
by Dave Bizzle on Feb 13, 2012 9:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'll rephrase
it is crap unless a standard deviation is also posted. Tell me where the stat falls 95% of the time.
by Dave Bizzle on Feb 13, 2012 9:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Don’t have comparable data earlier than 07-08, but you can start here and here. Quick eyeball, 28/30 teams (~95%) will be between 1020 and 980. While that means that sure, their PDO could stay as high as it, basically if it goes any lower (very likely) this team will miss the playoffs, barring a drastic turnaround (which isn’t as far-fetched an idea as it was a month ago, given recent games).
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by red army line on Feb 13, 2012 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
We’ll get all our regression to the mean out of theway tonight and be golden
by Dave Bizzle on Feb 13, 2012 9:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
but wait...
JP and Rob Parker were pointing out that just because Thomas has a high save % doesn’t mean Boston has to have a low shooting percentage. So, in other words, how can save % be the best measure of goalie performance but yet PDO be almost completely luck?
As I understand PDO, it has to even out across all teams, I don’t see anything in the logical construct of that stat that says it has to even out for each individual team. Why can’t a team sustain a higher than average SV% and at least an averagae SH% (i.e. Boston)? Or more simply, how can an individual team’s SH% be connected to it’s SV%? Why would they have to jointly regress to a PDO of 1000. That makes zero sense to me. I get that the league has to regress to 1000 but I don’t at all see how one team’s PDO has to do that. Am I missing something?
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I don’t think you’re missing anything, and it’s one of my big beefs with PDO. Due to the salary cap and parity, the vast majority of teams are in the range of “average.” Those teams are going to be right around 1000, I’d suspect (in terms of “true talent”). But there are probably about 3 teams at the top and the bottom whose “true talent” is significantly distanced from 1000. By saying that any deviation from 1000 is “pure luck” you do a disservice to the discourse because you stop analyzing. You just disclaim things as luck. Why not look at what BOS, NYR, and VAN are doing to drive their PDO up? Why not look at what CBJ does to drive their PDO down? Obviously goaltending is going to be a big part of that, but the shooting percentage could conceivably also be a part of it.
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