Why I am against automatically "standing up for teammates" no matter what the circumstance

by icehammer97 on Jan 8, 2012 1:44 AM EST

Now first this is for the kind of hit like the one tonight in SJ. Ones that are a penalty but not something like a sucker punch or slew foot or anything like that but just a charge that the ref sees and is going to call. If we let the ref do his job we go on the PP, one that had already scored that night, down one with a chance to tie the game. Instead we are playing 4 on 4 with our best player in the box. The Caps give up a goal on the 4 on 4 and instead of a possible tie game we are down 2 and pretty much done for the night. To me all that does is encourage guys like Brad Winchester to take runs at guys. If you are SJ you take Brad Winchester for Ovechkin every time all the time. Not only that but I have been watching hockey all my life and I have never seen a guy like Brad Winchester stop taking runs at guys because someone jumped him after. Does anyone think that Matt Cooke or Steve Ott has stopped taking runs at guys because someone fought them? I don't think so. I have always been a guy who says "beat them on the scoreboard." Now if we were losing by 4 and the game was over fine show teams you won't let guys roll over you then yes go get them, but in a game like tonight when the ref had the call all you are doing is hurting the team. It is just like fighting, you don't fight when your team has all of the momentum and allow their team to get some of it back, you don't retaliate for a hit when you need the PP to try to win the game.

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Amen, brother.

"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin

by Gould Old Days on Jan 8, 2012 5:20 AM EST reply actions

I couldn’t disagree more. Standing up for a teammate is exactly what the Caps need to do right now no matter what the circumstance. The problem with this team is that they don’t retaliate, period, not when they are winning, when the game is close or when they are getting blown out. The Caps just lost Backstrom to a dirty hit, the Caps’ best players are getting run including Vokoun every single game and the Caps aren’t doing anything about it. If guys like Winchester are taking runs at our best players, then the Caps need to do the same thing. Send someone to take a run at Marleu. The Caps’ PP isn’t good enough right now to deter this type of behavior from opposing teams so send a message that way. Gaining two points in the standings is not as important right now as this team learning to stick up for one another.

Lobbies: Green, Carlson, Orlov

by CapsFan2020 on Jan 8, 2012 11:27 AM EST reply actions

What would be the point of sending someone at Marleu? If it is a dirty hit all we do is get a guy suspended which hurts us for several games and not just the one and if it doesn’t then SJ will want to retaliate for that and will take another run at Semin.

I have said that they should have done something with Backstrom but since no one on the team saw it then no one knew it was dirty and didn’t want to respond to a clean hit.

This was not a dirty hit and even Ovechkin said so, "Asked if he thought it was a dirty hit, Ovechkin said: ‘No, it was I think good hit, but I think he makes a couple more extra steps. It’s kind of situation when you have step up for the other guys.’"

So now on a hit that was nothing more then a 2 minute penalty we feel the need to go after a guy because of all the people who went after them for not doing it for Backstrom and we lose the game because of it. This isn’t like years before where the regular season for us was just about staying healthy and sending messages for the playoffs. This team could very well have it come down to a finial game or a possible point that is the difference between being in the playoffs and being out of the playoffs and they cannot afford to lose games to send messages right now. Not saying we would have won if we had just taken the PP but not having it greatly hurt our chances and killed them when we gave up the goal 4 on 4.

Ovie quote from http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/capitals-watch/2012/jan/8/alex-ovechkin-trying-protect-my-teammate/

by icehammer97 on Jan 8, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions

What would be the point of sending someone at Marleu?

Caps should be going after the other teams’ best players regardless. That’s what other teams have been doing to the Caps rather effectively lately isn’t? I’m not saying that the Caps should throw dirty hits but they have to be a lot more physical against opposing teams’ best players and if someone like Hendricks, Beagle or Ward get suspended for a couple of games because of a bad hit, then so be it. If teams are going to take runs at your best players, I see no reason why the Caps shouldn’t return the favor. Letting other teams take liberties with your best players each and every time and doing nothing about it so you can have a PP is going to hurt the time in the long run. Sometimes you have to retaliate to send a message. How many games are the Caps going to win if Backstrom, Ovi, Semin, etc. are out of the lineup for an extended period of time? Look at how much they’ve struggled without Green. Something needs to change. This team is just too easy to play against.

This was not a dirty hit

The player was given a charging penalty so it was an illegal hit and again even if it wasn’t a penalty I have no problem with someone retaliating in that case. When one of your best players gets hit like that, someone should take exception, period. Ideally, you don’t want your best player to be the enforcer but apparently no one else on the team is willing to stick up for a teammate right now. As I said in my comments on last night’s recap, I know that the team is under a lot of pressure to win games and get into the playoffs this year but at what cost? If you lose your best players along the way, then what’s the point?

"He almost got me before that, a couple seconds [earlier]," Ovechkin said after the Caps’ 5-2 loss. "Then he got Semin. I was trying to protect my teammate, so I tried."

Asked if he thought it was a dirty hit, Ovechkin said: "No, it was I think good hit, but I think he makes a couple more extra steps. It’s kind of situation when you have step up for the other guys."

I couldn’t agree more Ovi. Good for you for at least trying.

Lobbies: Green, Carlson, Orlov

by CapsFan2020 on Jan 8, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Pittsburgh has guys to fight and does go after guys who take runs at their players and yet they still have no Crosby, no Staal, and have had almost all of their other stars have injuries in the last two years, much more then the Caps stars have been hurt. So being a tough aggressive team hasn’t helped them and in fact they have more injuries to stars then we do so that argument doesn’t hold a lot of water.

As for the hit, yes it was a charging penalty but if you fight back after every penalty you will never be on the PP and guys like take even more runs at us because they know then won’t have to kill off a PP because of it.

by icehammer97 on Jan 8, 2012 3:36 PM EST up reply actions

The Penguins have had some really tough luck with injuries to their top players in the past two years but most of them have been due to accidental collisions with other players and from blocking shots, etc. The only one I can think of that was due to a dirty hit was the one to Letang and I’m not sure what that has to do at all with the fact that the Caps are a soft team and that our players rarely stick up for one another. Sure dirty hits are going to happen once in a while no matter what but so what. I still want some of our players to retaliate when the situation calls for it. If you’re a player like Backstrom or Green, wouldn’t you feel better, more confident on the ice knowing that your teammates have your back and are willing to stick up for you? Do we really care if Hendricks or Beagle get a game misconduct or negate a power play once in a while for dropping the gloves? I watch other team’s role players take liberties with the Caps’ best players every single game. You don’t have to fight after every little hit but there should be a response after a dirty one or a tough hit like the one Semin took last night. Those kinds of hits against Backstrom, Green, Ovi, Semin shouldn’t be tolerated and need to be dealt with on the ice during the game.

Lobbies: Green, Carlson, Orlov

by CapsFan2020 on Jan 8, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

It was too bad that it had to be AO that jumped in. The Caps are sorely lacking in physicality as it is. They’ll bang bodies for a little bit but that’s about it.

"And as it’s my personal opinion, I’d appreciate not being told it’s stupid, thanks." - BeccaH

by hotdog88gt on Jan 8, 2012 12:26 PM EST reply actions

I disagree. Obviously it didn’t work out, but you’d hope the message Ovechkin sent to the rest of the team is a positive one that carries over.

No, it won’t deter Winchester or anyone else from doing anything in the future. But I care more about the 20+ players that wear the Caps crest than anyone else, and they saw their captain sticking up for one of them. Hopefully, going forward, there will be more of that attitude.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Jan 8, 2012 4:47 PM EST reply actions

After an enlightening discussion with two very respected and knowledgeable life-long hockey/Caps fans during dinner, I agree with JP. I suspected my dinner companions would both have been critical of Ovi’s actions last night, since it deprived us of a power play and they are both critical of fighting in general. However, they both thought that Ovi’s actions were an important team-building moment, one of too few over the course of the season so far. Teammates have to trust each other. It is important for players to know that they are stepping onto the ice with “brother warriers”. To know that someone has their back, and to be inspired to do the same. Ovi did that for them last night. In the heat of the moment, many things are said and done that are often regretted. But it is heartening to know that in the heat of the moment, your captain has your back.

by KSR17 on Jan 8, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions

Rather than respond individually, I’ll toss them all here. This is not your father’s (or your, for some of you) NHL. The days of retribution line-brawls are over (ignore PIT-NYI last year). The days where your stars sat for the final 10 min of a game because you embarrassed the other team on the ice and fear someone’s cheap shot are over. The new NHL is one of rules and laws that allow guys like Bourque, (the former) Mr. Cooke and others to run around, cheap-shot guys with not more than a slap on the wrist to fear for their actions. There is no message to send to these guys that is any more clear than trading themselves for the other team’s star, or baiting somebody into a 5 min major as you turtle like a coward is all it takes to swing a game your way. Hell, for some of them, even trading themselves for a few games is worth knocking the other team’s star out for a year. Vs. Calgary, we did it right (though I’d be less mad had someone taken a run at Bourque as the on-ice punishment didn’t fit the crime…) Vs. SJ, we did it wrong and Winchester got what he was after. Momentum back to SJ and the game in their pocket.

How many of you think Winchester will really be less apt to do the same thing when we play SJ again? This league is tailored to this kind of crap now and you have to learn how to respond. At no point does the “code” book say anything about retribution being swift and immediate. Take the PP you’re given (and improve on that 26% success rate under Hunter), do your damage on the scoreboard first, then when he’s out of the box again, send the right person after him. Don’t risk ANOTHER “young gun” to injury because we feel the need to respond. You have to play smart hockey these days. Ovie was lucky all he got out of that scrum was some UFC dry-humping of Mr. Winchester. Where would this team be missing Ovie for a month+ with a broken hand or concussion? Bet we’d be second guessing the message-sending then.

This team is missing swagger right now. It’s missing all the stuff that made it special over the past few years. Message sending is not going to fix that. Standings points will. By the time Singles Night rolls around, we’ll be lucky to have moved an inch on WPG or FLA, staring at another week of .500 hockey and watching all the good vibes from the 4 game win streak disappear. The fact that we’re even talking about having to catch TWO teams in the SE right now is disgusting to me, as it should be to all of you.

We’re seeing the NHL evolve before our eyes. Message-senders are being sent to the AHL. Guys like Erskine are watching from the pressbox in favor of guys like Orlov. But even when they are in, heavy-weights going after heavyweights doesn’t frighten anybody away from taking liberties with star players. Eye-for-an-eye won’t stop it, it will just cause more rough stuff towards a team’s stars. What will stop it is when it no longer helps your team win. The best way to do that is by taking the PP you’re given, do your damage, and take the 2 points in the standings.

by FFSEnough on Jan 8, 2012 11:07 PM EST reply actions 5 recs

I Agree To An Extent

In a circumstance like that were retribution negates a PP it is inarguably the wrong move (unless the revenge is for something really unacceptable). However, as anyone who has played hockey knows in order to beat a team on the scoreboard you gotta be able to beat them into the boards too. Retribution isn’t just about intimidating players from making dirty hits because, as you said the Matt Cooke’s and Steve Ott’s of the world are always going to make those hits. Retribution is about standing up for your teammate, about letting a fallen player know you have their back; it’s something that brings a team together as a group of people who have each others backs. I’m not saying get in the face of anyone who throws a clean hit, I’m saying sometimes the message that is sent by standing up for a teammate can be worth taking a penalty in the long run.

by DC FURY on Jan 9, 2012 2:50 PM EST reply actions

I agree like I said I would have been fine if they had stood up for Backstrom after he got hit, up 2, totally dirty hit. My problem is when guys take what is really nothing more then a 2 minute penalty and make it out to be like they just delivered a cheap shot. It makes me even more upset when guys have to fight after a clean hit. Not sure why in a checking game guys should have to answer with guys coming after him after a clean hit no matter how big.

by icehammer97 on Jan 10, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions

Circle the 18th, folks. Bourque is a Hab. Time to call up as many tough Bears as we can and have each one deck the crap out of him every time he steps on the ice.

by FFSEnough on Jan 12, 2012 11:23 PM EST reply actions

That better be a game #4 is in the lineup over 36

by icehammer97 on Jan 14, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions

Unless they plan to dress 7 defensemen, including botgh #4 and #36. Who needs 12 forwards anyway?

Rocking the Red for teams on the banks of the Potomac and at the Gateway Arch and Singing the Blues about Hockey.

by CapsFan75 on Jan 14, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions

If they are going to only use 11 forwards I would call up King for a day. Let him have some fun.

by icehammer97 on Jan 14, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions

You have a point there. The logistics would be problematic. There is this matter called “reentry waivers” and he’d be subject to them. If he’s claimed by another team, the Caps would still be responsible for half his salary. Granted, the likelihood of him being claimed is remote, given that no one ever claimed him on the way down (or last year). But there’s still that chance.

Rocking the Red for teams on the banks of the Potomac and at the Gateway Arch and Singing the Blues about Hockey.

by CapsFan75 on Jan 14, 2012 7:31 PM EST up reply actions

They would also have to keep him on their roster as well so whoever takes him can’t send him down either, don’t see anyone else using a roster spot on him full time just to spite us.

by icehammer97 on Jan 14, 2012 10:42 PM EST up reply actions

I’d let Hendricks and Brouwer handle it. Both are big enough and tough enough to deal with Bourque.

Failure is always an option.

by timmyv38 on Jan 14, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions

“SWEDE ! SWEDE ! SWEDE ! SWEDE !”

by Acer Jonesy's Laughker on Jan 15, 2012 7:45 AM EST up reply actions

Situation

Ovie’s teammates didn’t jump Winchester because they saw the refs arm raised and knew we needed to tie the game on the PP. standing up for your guys is important but that was not time to do it. Winchester and guys like him are MORE likely to do that now because they think they can get Ovi off the ice if they do it. Winchester did his job, Ovi made a bad decision. Likely cost us the game. Ice hammer is right, it’s a new NHL and smart/winning teams adapt.

by Avar on Jan 15, 2012 11:35 AM EST reply actions