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Rink Roundtable: On Rene Bourque and Pay Back

On January 3, the Calgary Flames paid a rare visit to Verizon Center for an East-West matchup that would end 3-1 for the good guys. By the time this one was done, however, the end result had almost become a sidenote to a much more concerning result for the Washington Capitals and their fans. As we all know by know, Rene Bourque threw a cheap elbow into Nicklas Backstrom's face (video here) and as a result Backstrom hasn't dressed since that game. The Caps' reaction was notably non-existent (unless you count the little chat Jason Chimera had with Bourque, which I don't). After the game the Capitals players seemed as though they'd like a chance to hold Rene Bourque accountable, though they knew they'd never get that chance with Bourque playing in Calgary. Troy Brouwer said "It's one of those things where it kind of sucks because we're not able to play (the Calgary Flames) again this year."

Well, Rene Bourque has been traded to the Montreal Canadiens, so the Caps will have an opportunity to see some more of the player that has knocked the Capitals' top center out of the lineup indefinitely. What should happen? What will happen? Everybody has thoughts, so here are ours.

First question, what is the response you'd like to see from the players after a guy gets a cheap shot or is on the receiving end of a questionable hit? What are the factors you are basing your decision on?

Star-divide

J.P.: In general, any and every cheap or questionable hit should be answered with... something. Frankly, I don't think that a fight after one of those hits does anything in terms of deterrence (the offender isn't likely to think twice about doing his next dirt because of a tussle he got in after his last gutless hit), and the retribution is somewhat cathartic for both players and fans, but that part is ultimately meaningless - what's done is done.

But what responding to a bad hit does is send a message to teammates that everyone's pulling in the same direction and everyone's got each other's back (and it's why I didn't mind Alex Ovechkin coming to Alexander Semin's defense in San Jose - it was a strong leadership move, even if it cost the team a power play). Know why Matt Bradley is a legend around here? Because he bled for these guys. He basically did the hockey equivalent of taking a bullet for the President down in Tampa. And so on. Who's this team's Matt Bradley?

Kareem: There is no hard-and-fast rule to apply here - it depends on the situation. When Bourque elbowed Backstrom, the Caps were clinging to a two-goal lead in a game they desperately needed to win against a Calgary team that was carrying the play in the third period. Plus, no one knew Backstrom would be out for weeks - the elbow didn't look that bad in real-time. Consequently, going for retribution late in the third period with the game still undecided put the Caps at risk of going short-handed and losing the game. It's why I understand the reasoning for not going after Bourque. (If Backstrom was laid out it's a different story altogether and there has to be an immediate response.) The flip side to this "secure-the-points" argument is that, knowing the extent of the injury, it does indeed make the Caps look soft. But, frankly, that's not the first or last time that phrase will be used with the Caps in the same sentence. It is what it is, and the Caps had to worry more about improving their standing points than about rectifying their soft reputation.

I also disagree with Ovechkin coming to Semin's aid in the Sharks game. If you're going to come to a player's aid, you need to "come correct" and leave no doubt that running players is a no-no. Ovechkin didn't hit Brad Winchester hard enough to deter Winchester - or anyone - from ever doing that again to Semin. Ovechkin also nullified his team's power play and took himself out of the game. The point is, if you're going to retaliate and take a penalty to defend your teammate, it has to cause the offendor some physical pain. Ovechkin's attempt was all fine and swell, but the end result was awful.

J.P.: Like I said, it's not about deterence, it's about sticking together as a team. For a squad that has, for years, looked more like a bunch of individuals than a cohesive "band of brothers," defending a teammate presents an opportunity to bond and send a lasting message. No such message was sent in the Calgary game, but hey, the Caps got the win (which they'd have held on for anyway, given the time left on the clock and the opponent).

Rob: I'm with J.P. in that teams generally need to respond to dirty/questionable hits in a fairly immediate manner. My focus is more on the long-term effects, and not on the specific in-game ramifications. While it's true that all points matter, there are 82 games that a team can make up for a lost point or two (and considering that the Caps play in a very weak division that they should clearly win only makes the point stronger). It's more important to send the message that you won't be pushed around and that every player has their teammates' backs. It can't be one or two guys that respond every time, it truly has to be a team effort. I might advocate turning the other cheek if the incident happened late in a game with direct playoff seeding implications, or late in a playoff game. Those exceptions really would only apply in March or April, though. I also think it's important to note that there's been a long and well-documented history of other players openly targeting the Caps' key players (not that that makes the Caps different from other teams). Dan Bylsma was the most candid about it on 24/7 and yet Mike Green continues to be run (when he's healthy enough to take the ice...). At some point maybe changing the status quo can't hurt. There's been enough "we'll get ‘em on the power play" going around, but when your top power play guys are injured from repeated, and often cheap, hits, how is that any solace?

I don't think the rats can be deterred, those days are lost. The self-policing nature of hockey is over. Guys like Bourque don't actually have to answer for their behavior, and the issue is as much cultural as it is statutory. The instigator makes it difficult for Matt Hendricks to just force Bourque into a fight (though that's what I wish he had done), but it's also simply more acceptable for players to run around and throw cheap hits and then refuse to fight. Turtling has lost it's stigma, for better or worse, and so the traditional system of checks and balances has broken down, to be replaced with... something. Given that, the issue with a response (or lack of response) has much more to do with the message you are sending your own teammates than the rats across the league.

One final thought, I know that fans frequently disclaim the potential deterrence value and openly question why designated fighters have a spot on the roster, but the players seem to unanimously appreciate having those guys around. Maybe it's just a tip of the cap to guys that play a tough role, but I do think we have to consider that there may be some value to having a strong fighter that may not necessarily be revealed by logic or superficial on-ice observations.

J.P.: To that last point, just look at the reigning Stanley Cup Champs (or the Cup-winning Ducks) - the whole team skates around intimidating opponents into passive submission on some nights, running goalies without fear of retribution, etc. Toughness and physicality still has a place in the NHL.

Next question, given those criteria, how do you feel about the specific incident between Bourque and Backstrom? Given the time left in the game, the score, and the opponent, what should have been done by whom?

J.P.: I think we can put to bed the notion that the team had no idea what had happened until after the game. They may not have seen the hit at the time, but by the time Bourque's penalty was up (and he went on to run Tomas Vokoun), they knew (and, incidentally, Matt Hendricks was on the ice at that time). And yet, Bourque skated his last three shifts relatively unbothered.

People will point out that the Caps had a two-goal lead, needed the win, etc... but I don't think any two points within a season are as valuable as sending a clear message that if you cheapshot a star, you're going to have to answer for it (besides the fact that Bourque was on the ice at the end, when the Caps still held a two-goal lead).

I'll leave the "what" and "by whom" to others, but the fact is that something needed to be done, and... crickets. Obviously, no frontier justice at that point was going to make the hit on Backstrom go away, but sending a message to the room (including the player who hasn't played a game since) could've gone a long way in bonding the squad going forward. Oh, and if Bourque didn't want to answer the bell? Let him turtle and grab the title of "Least Honorable Player in the League." Win-win.

Rob: I agree that the players knew what happened. Maybe not all of them saw it in real-time, but if you watch replays you can see players on the Caps' bench react to the hit immediately; at least a couple guys saw the hit and could easily have spread the word. I also disagree with Kareem that the hit didn't look bad in real time. Maybe it depends on the vantage point, but on the television I saw the hit and immediately knew it was an egregious elbow. I know I'm not the only one that didn't need a replay to realize how bad that was.

The Caps needed to do something to step up to Bourque. Let him turtle, give CGY a power play, I'm fine with it. For one, it was a two goal lead, not a one goal lead. Slim as a two goal lead is, there is still margin for error and Calgary hasn't exactly been filling the net by the bucketful this season. As I said, it has to be a team effort so theoretically anybody could have responded, but there are certain players that stand out as likely candidates. Chimera (who had the little chat with Bourque but didn't escalate it), Hendricks, and even Laich or Brouwer would be good choices (you'd like to be able to add Ward into that group but his career track record suggests it's just not going to happen). It's tough to ask Beagle to step up given how recently he returned from a concussion, but if he's too worried about his head to take on that role he probably needs to do some hard thinking about the future of his hockey career.

So now that the Caps have a chance to play Bourque again, what do you hope to see from the team? What do you expect to see?

J.P.: To be honest, what wasn't done wasn't done. Anything at this point is just a manufactured sideshow. The response needed to be organic, and it wasn't. Maybe next time, it will be. That said, Troy Brouwer lamented that, "It's one of those things where it kind of sucks because we're not able to play (the Calgary Flames) again this year." Well, now he (and they) have the chance to do whatever they'd have done if Bourque was still a Flame. I'd expect something, maybe just an early fight (a la Erskine-Asham) and then life will go on.

Kareem: J.P. brings up good points. A sideshow resolves little, but it is better than nothing and it's the minimal acceptable response. We now know that Backstrom was seriously injured. Make Bourque answer the bell, multiple times if needed. It won't remove the oft-applied label of "soft" that is transfixed to the team, nor will it prevent other NHL miscreants from running Caps players. Those problems weren't going to go away quickly anyway, regardless of whether Matt Hendricks straightened out Bourque in the third period or not.

Rob: I agree, anything at this point is vengeance. A fight would be nice but it's not going to change the fact that Bourque is back and Backstrom isn't. It will be interesting to me to see how Brouwer backs up his words. Tough talk is easy when nothing can be done.

Pepper: All excellent points, and yeah, while the better demons of my nature want to see some sort of retribution tonight, it’s a “manufactured sideshow” if done after the fact. What the whole incident and subsequent lack of response ultimately shows to me is that, while it may be Dale Hunter’s team, it’s not yet . . . Dale Hunter’s team. Who knows if and when it will be. I’m pretty sure that that sound of crickets greatly concerned, if not sickened, Coach Hunter, and something he would not have tolerated as a team captain in his day.

There’s still quite a bit of work to be done it seems toward Hunter putting the mark of his personality during his playing days on this team. And I can only assume that was a significant reason for hiring Hunter as head coach and what both he and GM George McPhee are hoping to accomplish during the remainder of the season.

J.P.: And hey, at the very least, we can imagine what might go down...

Via RMNB

Comment 86 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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Comments

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I would have suggested “Bitches Get Stitches.”

"My favorite fan base in D.C. Is United's. Period. The end." - Steinberg

Which DC sports team has the Most Valuable Players? That would be DC United, a team being pushed out by the city. Help Keep United in DC so they can receive a fair deal on a lease and help develop a path to build a stadium with local investment and incentives.

by Bald Pollack on Jan 18, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

We couldn’t get Melo to write the foreward, so we skipped that.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Jan 18, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

“You can Rene, but you can’t hide”

Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...

by dcsportsfan1 on Jan 18, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Would have loved to have seen Bourque received more than taste of his own medicine right after the elbow. I really don’t think we accomplish anything by going after him tonight. Sure, it would feel good to see him get pummeled, but that doesn’t bring 19 back. I’d rather have the two points.

Roman Hamrlik is so bad that I've forgotten how bad Jeff Schultz is.

by Alex Reed on Jan 18, 2012 1:15 PM EST reply actions  

I’m with you, obviously, but the Caps can’t do nothing after their talking. Fight him early, then move on.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Jan 18, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

How about going after one of their skill guys early on? That would really make his new teammates hate him and provide great personal satisfaction from a petty emotional standpoint.

Roman Hamrlik is so bad that I've forgotten how bad Jeff Schultz is.

by Alex Reed on Jan 18, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Down 19 and 52 already, I’m not sure the Caps want to start playing that game with anyone.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Jan 18, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

And it’s attacking skill guys that weren’t even on his team when he “instinctively” elbowed Nick in the face.

Please, call me F&B.

by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Jan 18, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

That implies that Montreal has “skill guys.”

Unleash the Apathy.

by D'ohboy on Jan 18, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Was waiting patiently for that response.

Roman Hamrlik is so bad that I've forgotten how bad Jeff Schultz is.

by Alex Reed on Jan 18, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel you on this actually. Not tonight, for the reasons others have stated, but when a goon, or non-skilled player takes out your star, its pretty useless to beat his ass… hes not going to be a hockey threat anyway. The whole point is we lost our top guy, they should lose theirs. Make teams and teammates think twice about employing assholes. Make them police their own locker rooms. I wouldn’t want to skate with a cheapshot if I know I’m going to pay for his shit.

by feeya7 on Jan 18, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s like in baseball – teams don’t retaliate against the pitcher that drilled them (well, except when they “brawl”), they retaliate by throwing at that pitcher’s best-hitting teammate.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Jan 18, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

yes, but these are different circumstances in that Montreal had nothing to do with the original incident. Or, can they be faulted for trading for Bourque?

by CapsDegenerate on Jan 18, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

ab so fucking lutely.
So, who habs to go? The turtle? Gionta? Plekanec?

"One of the most difficult things everyone has to learn is that for your entire life you must keep fighting and adjusting if you hope to survive." -George Allen

by caps&skins on Jan 18, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Whatever happens happens...

Whether Rene Bourque ends up in an ambulance or has to be airlifted from the arena, I’m ok with either outcome…

Occasionally reporting from Section 421 of the Verizon Center...

by MikeL-Pivonka on Jan 18, 2012 1:17 PM EST reply actions  

Here is a side dish to this. David Steckel hit Sidney Crosby in the Winter Classic. Some folks think it was incidental, others think maybe not. But the next time the teams met — February 6th — Steckel was held to account (whether worthy of blame or not) by Tim Wallace. Tim Freakin’ Wallace, a guy who played a total of 24 games with the Penguins over three years (any of you remember seeing him last night?…he’s an Islander now).

You will also recall that was the game in which Matt Cooke nearly took out Alex Ovechkin’s knee not ten minutes later by the game clock. I do not recall if anyone held Cooke accountable for that incident.

I have little doubt that something will occur tonight (the refs might even be co-conspirators of the “ok guys, get it over with” sort of wink). But I wonder if it won’t end up being one of those things like the BP fastball that Shawn Estes threw behind Roger Clemens after Clemens hit Mike Piazza with a pitch some years ago. A weak response. There is the idea of “do it and get it over with,” and whether that is a good idea in the context of a game you need to win, but if you’re going to do it, then do it.

If you've read this far...seek help.

by ThePeerless on Jan 18, 2012 1:24 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

Rec’d for the Estes/Clemens parallel. That was such a pathetic scene. If we see an equivalent to that tonight, just, bleh.

Roman Hamrlik is so bad that I've forgotten how bad Jeff Schultz is.

by Alex Reed on Jan 18, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember the look on Clemen’s face was pricleless, like “WTF? That’s what you bring?”

If the equivalent was to occur tonight, it will have been a waste of time.

If you've read this far...seek help.

by ThePeerless on Jan 18, 2012 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m pretty sure I remember Ovechkin and pretty much everyone on the ice going after Cooke for going after Ovi’s knee. I remember thinking it was the reason Cooke only got a minor for it (and no one else if I’m remembering it right).

"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."

by gfcaps fan on Jan 18, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

“Going after” was a little shoving, maybe a facewash. General rule of thumb: if your retaliation is something I could withstand, it wasn’t retaliation.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Jan 18, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

B-b-b—b-but those gloves are REALLY smelly.

Please, call me F&B.

by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember Backis throwing some punches there (with glove still on).

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"

by Steve-R on Jan 18, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Backstrom punched him in the face. Here’s the video.

by vtcapsfan99 on Jan 18, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Cooke did get the only penalty (minor for tripping)

If you've read this far...seek help.

by ThePeerless on Jan 18, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think a staged fight tonight is the answer. I’m all for immediate, reactionary, spontaenous in-the-moment retribution after a dirty or questionable hit, but that opportunity has passed. At this point, rather than a quick fight, let’s get it over with approach, I’d rather the Caps be deliberate and methodical with the payback, even if it doesn’t happen tonight. If Brouwer and Ovi can line him up and nail him tonight great, but I don’t want it to end there. I want the Caps to hold a grudge and make sure down the road that if there is an opportunity to lay the wood on this guy (within the confines of the rules and fair play), I want them to take it. Every time.

I don't want to work, I want to hang on the blog all day.

by cainoo7x on Jan 18, 2012 1:29 PM EST reply actions  

My suggestion, leave him alone. He’s expecting it. Leave him alone and let him wonder when it’s coming. Throw Erskine, Hendy, Bouwer out with him and let him think it’s coming but do nothing. No chirping, not shoving (unless he pulls some shenanigans). Keep it in his head that somethings coming.

Until late in the second or early third (whey the Caps are down 3-0) and Bourque assumes nothing is gonna go down, then pound him. Finish a check, get him to answer. If he doesn’t, let him know someone on his team is gonna answer, maybe PK can turtle again. If he does answer the bell. Go at him again when he gets out of the box.

If they make him answer early on, he knows it’s over and can play his game. As JP points out, this is not about deterring future such hits, although that would be a nice result. It’s about showing your teammates that you’ve got their back.

Sadly, I think Erskine engages early and thats the end of it.

Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...

by dcsportsfan1 on Jan 18, 2012 1:29 PM EST reply actions  

I hope to see some retribution, but it’s far too little and far too late to lift the miasma that has settled in the Caps’ dressing room.

Unleash the Apathy.

by D'ohboy on Jan 18, 2012 1:35 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Cure for miasma...

"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin

by Gould Old Days on Jan 19, 2012 8:44 AM EST up reply actions  

I won’t be satisfied till the montreal police investigate. Ha, not really.

The league will be watching this game and the response could certainly have an effect on how other teams approach the caps in the future. They need to step up, and it needs to be effective. That elbow was out of the context of the game – there is no rivalry with the teams, nothing in the game brought it on. It had nothing to do with hockey.

by Stormblue on Jan 18, 2012 1:36 PM EST reply actions  

There is a simple answer to this dilemma...

Sign her to a one-year deal.

Capitals goal scored by #22, Mike...

by KNUUUUUUUUUUBLE on Jan 18, 2012 1:39 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Sheer genius!

"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."

by gfcaps fan on Jan 18, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

He’s already taken away 10 games from one Nicklas Backstrom this year.

Capitals goal scored by #22, Mike...

by KNUUUUUUUUUUBLE on Jan 18, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

You’re stealing my line.

Sincerely,
Joe B.

Occasionally reporting from Section 421 of the Verizon Center...

by MikeL-Pivonka on Jan 18, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m still shocked that Cam and Joel Ward aren’t related.

by Stormblue on Jan 18, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m equally shocked the Caps’ Honey Badger and Christina aren’t related.

Hi. My name is Christoph J. I'm a Caps fan.

by Christoph J on Jan 18, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

What? No gratuitous photo of Christina?

Occasionally reporting from Section 421 of the Verizon Center...

by MikeL-Pivonka on Jan 18, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

And...

…he’s worked with a Cap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGNr08uow6k&feature=player_embedded

Occasionally reporting from Section 421 of the Verizon Center...

by MikeL-Pivonka on Jan 18, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Put it this way, if they don’t retaliate in any way tonight, then we really have culture problems.

by Kolzilla on Jan 18, 2012 1:44 PM EST reply actions  

Something about “Montreal” and “culture problems” is perfectly fitting.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Jan 18, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Ripping off a fellow Rinker’s sig line, the realist in me expects them to Unleash the Apathy. I’m not holding my breath for a significant response or statement, but even if they did deliver some sort of retribution to Rene Borque I also think

… it’s far too little and far to late …

Hi. My name is Christoph J. I'm a Caps fan.

by Christoph J on Jan 18, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

You send a message to the league that the Caps aren’t to be messed with. This is the time. No proportional response. You pound his face for all of North America to see. You make what Arron Asham did to Jay Beagle seem like fun.

It was a blatant cheap shot. He thought he wouldn’t have to see the Caps the rest of the season. It was on our best player. Backstrom has been out since. And then he told the media he didn’t realize he made contact with Backstrom (or some BS like that).

I’m sorry. I’m all for 2 points. But, Bourque needs to die………

by CapsDegenerate on Jan 18, 2012 1:46 PM EST reply actions  

Prepare to die...

Capitals goal scored by #22, Mike...

by KNUUUUUUUUUUBLE on Jan 18, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

We know what Hunter was like as a player, and can daydream about what he might have done if he were on the ice. But as a coach, is he the same person—does he have the same outlook? When he’s behind the bench, is retaliation something that he would value in the same way he might have when he was playing? He seemed to play down the hit after the game in the same way the players did (“didn’t see it clearly, etc.”)

by kingbonehead on Jan 18, 2012 1:50 PM EST reply actions  

I think he’s already acknowleged it is a different game today…something about not getting away with nearly as much back then if there were two refs?

If you've read this far...seek help.

by ThePeerless on Jan 18, 2012 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, but that doesn’t tell me that he didn’t want to see some immediate response, at least reasonably within the boundaries of “today’s game.”

Further, addressing the situation by commenting that a player can’t get away with as much today suggests to me that he wishes it weren’t so in response to this incident. Maybe I’m taking it too far, but that was my initial reaction.

by Stephen Pepper on Jan 18, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Erskine is in the lineup. That’s enough information for me to make the determination that Hunts is all about retaliation in this instance.

Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...

by dcsportsfan1 on Jan 18, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Perreault is in the lineup too. Goon city for this one.

Its a back to back situation so I’m not sure it can be read that way. Erskine might have been in the lineup regardless just as good player management.

by Stormblue on Jan 18, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

For one, it was a two goal lead, not a one goal lead. Slim as a two goal lead is, there is still margin for error and Calgary hasn’t exactly been filling the net by the bucketful this season.

But a two goal lead is the most dangerous lead in hockey!

"Money talks. I listen."

by apk3000 on Jan 18, 2012 1:57 PM EST reply actions  

It’s more important to send the message that you won’t be pushed around and that every player has their teammates’ backs.

The latter part of this is particularly important. I get the sense that, even if it doesn’t matter much to me, and I value the two points more, the players care. A Ranger on 24/7 (Del Zotto? I can’t remember) got boarded and had to be helped to the locker room, and his first question to the trainers was, “Who had my back?” “Rupper,” they said.

What happened when Backstrom asked the same question?

Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.

by SmallZ827 on Jan 18, 2012 2:04 PM EST reply actions  

Great pickup, I definitely remember that scene. And I have no idea how MDZ got back up, brutal collision.

Please, call me F&B.

by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2012 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah that was a very poignant scene, I wish I could believe the Caps had that kind of cohesiveness. To nitpick, I think it might have been after MDZ got sucker-punched in front of the net rather than the crash into the boards.

by Kolzilla on Jan 18, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah, I’ll have to watch again some time.

Please, call me F&B.

by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I couldn’t really remember the specifics. What stuck with me was how much Rupp going after the guy meant to him.

Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.

by SmallZ827 on Jan 18, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, he was when he got “sucker punched” after he crosschecked Kopecky in the face.

Release the Mackan!

by Killer_Carlson on Jan 18, 2012 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d rather not see it be handled with a fight. I’d rather see consistent, hard, legal hits. Everytime Bourque is on the ice, I’d like to see him on his ass. No matter which line is out there. If it’s the 1st line, Ovi, 2nd, Brouwer, 3rd, Chimera, 4th, Hendy, Erskine always a wildcard. Hell, let Orlov line up an ass-over-teakettle hip check. Put him on the ice early and often.

As a bonus, both Ovi and Troy play better when they’re hitting. So hit him.

by Aliceanna on Jan 18, 2012 2:06 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

Yea, I mostly agree. I’d like to see a fight too though, one where they aren’t “dancing partners” but where we seriously beat his face in. If that can’t happen, then yea, I want him logging more on-his-ass time than ice time.

by feeya7 on Jan 18, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

This just got a shoutout from Vogel on Caps Report.

"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."

by gfcaps fan on Jan 18, 2012 2:29 PM EST reply actions  

Neat. Any specifics?

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Jan 18, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Not much. Was in a general subject of getting even with Bourque (may or may not have been a question sent in, you can hear it when they post later). Mostly, he said anything that needed to be said, you guys had done it best.

"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."

by gfcaps fan on Jan 18, 2012 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s kind of him to say. Vogs and I tend to see eye-to-eye on most things hockey, though he certainly expresses it more eloquently.

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by J.P. on Jan 18, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Well lookee here, the controversy just got a post on Deadspin: http://deadspin.com/5877241/the-hockey-gods-will-have-their-bloody-vengeance

Capitals goal scored by #22, Mike...

by KNUUUUUUUUUUBLE on Jan 18, 2012 4:13 PM EST reply actions  

How’s he doing these days? Haven’t had a tweet in a while.

"One of the most difficult things everyone has to learn is that for your entire life you must keep fighting and adjusting if you hope to survive." -George Allen

by caps&skins on Jan 18, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

First taker?

I got 20 bucks (to choice of charity) that says Bourque goes with Erskine in the first period tonight.

Cross check and all call.

by bigonetimer on Jan 18, 2012 5:31 PM EST reply actions  

I’ve said this in the multiple other threads on this topic, but I think that when fans speculate on team cohesion as evidenced by the Caps’ lack of response to the Bourque cheapshot, it says more about the fan than the team. It all boils down to this: Fans will project their belief systems on what does (or doesn’t) constitute “team unity” on the team they support. Does anybody really think the Caps are not a tight-knit bunch? That they don’t care about each other? Or that the lack of immediate reaction to the Bourque elbow reveals any deep-seated lack of cohesion within the ranks? Doesn’t hold a lot of weight to me. This wasn’t a Lucic-Miller moment here. Not all retribution is the same.

by DonnieKnutts on Jan 18, 2012 6:17 PM EST reply actions  

How does the Lucic-Miller thing figure in to this? What is the difference? It seems like by adding that line you’re guilty of what you describe in the majority of the comment.

Please, call me F&B.

by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

FWIW, I was just watching NHL on the Fly and they had Rob Ray (Sabres studio guy, obviously a former Sabre) on and they all more or less pinpointed the Lucic hit as the moment that everything went sideways for Buffalo, and not for the effects of the hit on Miller as much as what the non-response said to the whole room. Sounds like a mess in there, and it sure has been on the ice.

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by J.P. on Jan 18, 2012 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I bet Rob Ray could still feed Rene Bourque his lunch today.

Please, call me F&B.

by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2012 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Got that right.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Jan 18, 2012 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Like I said, not all “cheapshots” are created equal. A very obvious running of your goalie is one thing; a sneaky elbow to a player who is dazed but immediately hops up and skates to the bench is another. We’ve been over this ground time and time again, but if Backstrom had stayed laid out, I bet the reaction would’ve been different. Had it been Vokoun and not Backstrom, the same. Etc. Etc.

by DonnieKnutts on Jan 18, 2012 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

But now it’s a matter of degree and not principle. The entire structure of your initial argument is undermined and now it boils down to “I don’t think this cheap shot was that bad.”

Please, call me F&B.

by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

This may not be analogous, but this whole thing brings to mind 2 incidents involving the Redskins. In the 1999 wild card game, someone on the Lions cheapshotted Brad Johnson and Tre Johnson (no relation) went totally apeshit on the guy and was tossed from the game for his efforts (a Skins victory, BTW). A season or two later, Jeff George was sacked by a Cowboys defender and literally dragged several yards backwards: not a single O-Lineman even looked back. This wasn’t a good team: it was a collection of individuals. Perhaps it says more about George than the team, but I’m guessing Backstrom is a good teammate who is respected by his fellow Caps and the response tonight may say as much about him as the team. FWIW, I think Bourque should die the death of 1000 paper cuts and be banged on within the rules all game. Besides, will anyone on Montreal want to answer the bell for something he did while playing for Calgary?

by Acer Jonesy's Laughker on Jan 18, 2012 6:53 PM EST reply actions  

I want a brain-jarring, helmet-smashing, tooth-knocking, daze-giving, Tuomo Ruutu-like LEGAL hit on Bourque from Ovie. And maybe Brouwer to boot.

Dale, the...

by Penguin Hunter on Jan 18, 2012 6:53 PM EST reply actions  

Glass-shattering too. It’s been a while since one of those deals.

Dale, the...

by Penguin Hunter on Jan 18, 2012 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I won’t be satisfied with anything less than a cross-check into Borque’s teeth. Seriously. I want all goons in the league to think, “hey, if I run a star on the Caps I’m going to need reconstructive jaw surgery.” I don’t care if one of our guys gets a 10-game suspension for it. Completely worth it.

"If I knew then what I know now, that woulda messed it up somehow" - Roy Drusky

by LACapsFan on Jan 18, 2012 7:45 PM EST reply actions  

Wow. That’s a rational response.

by DonnieKnutts on Jan 18, 2012 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, I happen to disagree with the sentiment that deterrence doesn’t work. The argument there is, “no one deters anybody anymore, so it doesn’t work.” Huh? The guy blatantly tried to put Nicky out for the season, and the ‘rational’ response is, hey water under the bridge, deterrence doesn’t work, tough luck, blah blah. Really? Okay, but then it seems pretty irrational to me to be surprised the next time one of our stars gets run.

"If I knew then what I know now, that woulda messed it up somehow" - Roy Drusky

by LACapsFan on Jan 18, 2012 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

No, the rational response is, nobody knew the scope of Backy’s injury when it happened, and—again, this is something that has been debated ad nauseum here—few on the bench really comprehended how much of a cheapshot it was in real time. The moment to “deter” passed. I just refuse to castigate any of the team for perceived inaction nor partake in some kind of bloodlust just to satisfy a craving for revenge

by DonnieKnutts on Jan 18, 2012 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree: “nobody knew the scope of Backy’s injury when it happened.” I watched the replay and in regular motion one might’ve thought it was an accident, but in slow-motion it was clearly intentional. Regardless, I never said the Caps should go back in a time-machine and hit Bourque in that game. I said they should do it tonight. Please re-read my post.

Disagree: “moment to "deter" passed”. Why? Is Rene Bourque not going to be able to connect the dots between a shot to the head and his earlier cheapshot? Is the entire league not aware of this issue and watching tonight’s game to see if we send a message? Is it not on Deadspin and numerous other outlets? Has Brouwer not already come out and said he wished he could do something but too bad Bourque’s in Calgary, and now that he’s on Mtl we have the chance to do something? I think with the whole league watching, this is the perfect time to send a message.

"If I knew then what I know now, that woulda messed it up somehow" - Roy Drusky

by LACapsFan on Jan 18, 2012 8:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Ovechkin and Halpern both reacted immediately. They knew it was cheap immediately.

Please, call me F&B.

by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

That isn’t the rationale. Those are two unrelated points.

Please, call me F&B.

by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Y’all have already seen me on this topic (to summarize, “what’s the point? Rats gonna do what rats are gonna do.”). I think this roundtable is much closer to how I feel about the topic than other discussions we’ve had about this on the site, both before and since the Bourque elbow. And I think this is the critical point:

J.P.: In general, any and every cheap or questionable hit should be answered with… something…. [W]hat responding to a bad hit does is send a message to teammates that everyone’s pulling in the same direction and everyone’s got each other’s back .

I can definitely get on board with this. But J.P. sours the comment a bit by immediately following with this parenthetical:

(and it’s why I didn’t mind Alex Ovechkin coming to Alexander Semin’s defense in San Jose – it was a strong leadership move, even if it cost the team a power play)

This, I cannot get on board with. Do “something” to make the team feel more cohesive, sure. But don’t do something stupid.

The problem with what Ovechkin did is that it will breed more bad hits. What’s the calculus for Winchester? His team has the lead, and by running Alex Semin he can get both of the Caps’ star players off the ice (Backstrom and Green were out at that point of that game). As far as I’m concerned, given that responses, the Brad Winchesters of the world aren’t doing their jobs if they don’t run Alex Semin.

I don’t believe that deterrence works very well, but I sure as hell don’t want the team to engage in “anti-deterrence.” Screw the C. Alex Ovechkin should not be the Caps’ enforcer. Maybe following the team’s sad lack of a response against Calgary, it was important that one time for Ovechkin to go after Winchester in that instance. But the precedent is terrible.

I think the sentiment after the Calgary game of “what is Hendricks on this roster for if not for these situations” was the right one. And based on his play since, that sentiment may have filtered its way up the line and goosed him a bit. Good. Let the Hendrickses of the world do the dirty work. Because when your stars do your dirty work, there’s going to be more dirty work to do.

"Fais gros comme moi!" - Alex Ovechkin

by Gould Old Days on Jan 19, 2012 8:57 AM EST reply actions  

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