NHL Realignment
Since it's not worth discussing anything on Puck Daddy, thought I'd bring the conversation here.
8 months ago
katzistan
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My main hope – though I think the momentum is against this – is that we don’t go back to divisional playoffs. While the matchups are sexy, the reason we switched away from them was because they’re not fair. Invariably, every year, you had good teams playing each other in the first round instead of against worse teams who happened to be in a weaker division. Occasionally, the entire Patrick Division would be among the top 8 in the conference, but you’d have some weak Adams division team (usually the Whalers) in the playoffs instead.
There’s also no inherent reason for teams to be organized geographically in the playoffs, which is why I’m not crazy about the current format – which pits an Eastern winner against a Western one every year for the Cup. Why not have East vs. East if those are the two best teams? Shouldn’t the best teams compete for the Cup? Someone once proposed reseeding the final four, I thought that was a great idea. Really, the top-16 format from the early 80s was best, though I understand why we couldn’t go back to that.
so, perhaps more like the baseball player? Not separate (Ha! “separate”) leagues, but two conferences of 15 teams, regardless of geography?
oh, and 1988 playoffs? Must be nice to get in with a .325 winning percentage, amirite Toronto? Jesus.
Pledge Drive 2011-2012: CARSON KOLZIG FOUNDATION! Supporting autism awareness and treatment.
Do you think parity has changed to the point where there would no longer be serious problems where the bottom 4 teams in one division would be better than some of the top 4 in another? The game has changed a lot since the days of the Patrick Division, so I think this might be an acceptable risk for the benefits of developing rivalries and increasing fan interest.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 28, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
The Biggest Driver...
…in the realignment will be, as it is with everything else, money. The biggest money maker aside from ticket sales is TV, and both NBC/Versus and CBC/TSN would love to have there be one division with all of the Canadian teams. If that’s the case, the US based teams would be aligned in 2 divisions of 8 teams and one division of 7. Something like this maybe:
Canada Division: VAN, EDM, CGY, WPG, OTT, TOR, MTL
US West: SJ, LA, ANH, PHX, COL, DAL, MIN, STL
US East: BOS, BUF, NYR, NYI, NJ, PHI, PIT, WSH
US Central/South: CAR, FLA, TB, CHI, CBJ, DET, NSH
The NHL is also looking to balance the schedule some, so likely each team would play all the other teams not in their division twice (meaning 44 games for teams in 8 team divisions, 46 for teams in a 7 team division) and the balance would be in the division (for 7 team divisions, there’d be 6 matchups, meaning 36 games to go with the 46 out of the division for 82). For a team in an 8 team division, there’d be 5 games against each team, and then an additional game against 3 of the opponents in the division, possibly related to the previous years’ standings.
If we use last years results as an example, the US East division above would have finished in this order:
1) Caps
2) Flyers
3) Penguins
4) Bruins
5) Sabres
6) Rangers
7) Devils
8) Islanders
The Caps schedule would then be 2 games against everyone out of the division, 5 games against Sabres, Rangers, Devils and Islanders, and since they finished in the top half of the division, 6 games against Flyers, Penguins and Bruins. 38 division games, 44 outside the division for 82 games.
If the playoffs were set up like they are talking about in the P/D article, then none of the NYC based teams would have made the postseason last year, and neither would have the Sabres.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
My idea
East
Southeast
FLA, TBL, NAS, CAR, DAL
Northeast
BOS, MTL, OTT, TOR, BUF
Atlantic
NYI, NYR, NJD, PHI, WAS
West
Central
DET, PIT, CBJ, STL, CHI
Northwest
VAN, CAL, EDM, WIN, MIN
Southwest
SJS, LAK, ANA, PHO, COL
Current vs new furthest distances
NW 1089/1434
Pac(Southwest) 1450/831
Cen 470/470
NE 319/319
Atl 336/221
SE 901*/1091
avg 761/728
*didn’t include the New Jets because it is only for the one season.
Pittsburgh gets hurt the most but they have been trying to build a rivalry with Detroit since the back to back Cup Finals (see tonight’s preseason game) and will also get Columbus in their division who are very close and would be easy for their fans to drive to. Detroit and Columbus stay in the west which they won’t like but with Pittsburgh in their division they get a third eastern time zone team in the division and if they league goes to a more equal schedule it won’t be as bad for travel. I would like to see 6 games against east division team (24 games) and 2 games against every other team in the league regardless of conference (50 games) and have 8 other games. These other games can play up rivals like Pittsburgh vs Philly or Detroit vs the other original 6 teams. Those can change some over time but can help keep some of the rivalries that will change with division changes and can be used to help keep teams from having to travel as much as well by basically eliminating the conferences without actually getting rid of the conferences for playoff reasons.
Your realignment is a very interesting idea — putting the southern teams together. I like most of the divisional alignments. Dallas is the one team that gets somewhat screwed in the mileage traveled department but it’s hard to fit everyone properly.
Like the idea of Columbus & Pitt together. Also like the idea of Minnesota and Winnipeg together as well.
Rocking the Red for teams on the banks of the Potomac and at the Gateway Arch and Singing the Blues about Hockey.
Dallas is the one team that gets somewhat screwed in the mileage traveled department but it’s hard to fit everyone properly
…and perhaps this is as it ought to be: Rick Perry once said Texas should secede from the Union…I say Let ’em!
Seriously, my main problem with DET coming east is that, for decades, the road to the Cup itself has—more often than not—gone through Detroit…I don’t want the Caps’ road to the Finals having to go through the Motor City as well. Plus re-aligning the Red Wings will leave Chicago as the only Original Six team left in the Western Conference.
As you rightly point out, CapsFan75, there are advantages and disadvantages to every possible realignment scenario. One possibility I like is expansion/relocation of a franchise to Quebec City (Les Nordiques encore?); then—with the recent rebirth of the Jets, you have eight (8) Canadian teams; set up both conferences into two semi-geographic divisions, each with two Canadian teams, thus:
WEST:
Gretzky Division:
VAN
EDM
SJS
LAK
ANA
PHO
COL
Sakic Division:
CGY
WPG
MIN
DAL
CHI
STL
CBJ
EAST:
Howe Division:
DET
TOR
OTT
PIT
BUF
NSH
STL
TB
Messier DIvision:
BOS
MTL
QUE
NYI
NYR
WAS
PHI
CAR
FLA
…or maybe not…
To Solve Most Hockey Problems: Score More Goals!
Not a bad idea but I would rename the Sakic division. Seeing as how the team he played his entire career for is not in that division. To be I would go with the Hull division there. Because then you can cover the Hawks (Bobby) and the Blues and Stars (Brett) I think it would be hard to beat that family when it comes to games played for teams in that division.
To be honest division names don’t mean much as long as they are legends and leaders.
To be honest division names don’t mean much as long as they are legends and leaders.
Unless they actually are Legends and Leaders…I’m lookin at you, B1G…
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → b a (select) start
Any realignment idea has to start out by rejecting the idea of any kind of “southeast” division that anyone would want to be in. There are no rivalries between the other southern teams, and there are unlikely to be any. You can’t solve the problem by just shoving all the teams no one cares about into one division.
A smart realignment would put the two Florida teams in a division with the three New York teams. You have the greatest cultural similarity there, and you keep everyone in one time zone.
Everyone thinks they have a rivalry with Detroit, so it’s also important to be clever about where you place them. You’d want them with Chicago, but potentially with Nashville and Columbus as well.
As far as sprinkling these around, I think Mike-L does a good job above, although you’d need to swap some teams between central/south and east. For example, switch Buffalo and Pittsburgh with Florida and Tampa.
I think no matter what you do you are going to have some less interesting divisions. However in my “Southeast,” division names can be whatever you want, you have the two Florida teams that have a rivalry there. You also have Nashville and Carolina who right now are starting a fight to claim the Atlanta market with both trying to televise games in Atlanta and also having special ticket packages for the few diehard hockey fans in that city and having the two in the same division could make that battle even more interesting and could even play one of their “home” games against each other each year in Atlanta. Dallas is sort of an odd ball but really they don’t have any good rivalry with any team right now and it makes no geographic sense if you have them in a division with the Wild so that could be one of the extra games in my idea above.
There is no way to please every team no matter what the realignment looks like. Even if they do away with equal conferences and divisions and move both the Jackets and Wings to the East, say the Hawks who lose their biggest current rival. Also unless you make uneven conferences you are going to have divisions with two time zones and unless they are going to go with a straight 1-16 playoff format it will be incredibly unfair to the team that has to finish in the top half of a 16 team conference where in the other conference where you can be in the bottom half of the conference and still make the playoffs, as seen in ‘88 playoff example. It is so bad that in the MLB who really can’t have odd numbered even leagues/conferences there has been talk about how to make each league even to balance out the playoff chances of every team. I am against one team having better odds to make the playoffs over another team before the season have even started.
There are no rivalries between the other southern teams, and there are unlikely to be any.
There would be if they played divisional playoff rounds every year…
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 28, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
No way NBC lets the NHL split PIT and PHI into different conferences. PIT will be in the East if the NHL sticks with the conference format…
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Sep 22, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Using my idea they could still play 4 times a year which is as many times as the Pens and Caps play now which NBC loves plus they would get more of Detroit and Pittsburgh with they also like as well as Philly and the Caps so you give a little in one area and gain in others. I think part of it is if they are going to do something like moving Pittsburgh to the West they would have to change how they make the schedule.
It’ll never happen, but I’d love for the league to just ditch geography in many cases, and focus on rivalries and balancing a schedule. If the Kings become division rivals, whatever. I mean, some geographical instances would have to stay (Edmonton – Calgary, Ontario battles, etc.) but Montreal – Toronto didn’t die just because Toronto was in the West for an insubordinate amount of time.
I’m also completely in favor of having divisional playoff rounds, and conference playoffs. The reason for that? Even if your division is weak, so what. If you have divisions and don’t reward for play in the division, then WHY do you have divisions? Going to a 1-16 format rather than divisional/conference based playoffs completely unbalances schedules anyway. If you play in a weak division you have a better seeding/chance for the playoffs. If we’re going to get rid of divisional playoffs, get rid of divisions and play 2 or 3 games against each team. You end up with 62-93 games then, and either way it seems too radical a change and in my opinion, dumb. If you want divisions, you have to deal with division winners, at least.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
I know the economic climate is not currently ripe for expansion but if expansion were to happen, we could have 2 conferences of 16 teams and then go to 2 divisions of 8 teams. Well, where can we expand to? There are still a few large cities with no team like Houston, Kansas City, or even Vegas. If we expanded to Houston, they could develop a rivalry with Dallas.
Rocking the Red for teams on the banks of the Potomac and at the Gateway Arch and Singing the Blues about Hockey.
Expansion likely will happen at the end of the decade, but it’s a little too early right now, with some teams in financial difficulty. That said, if the NHL were to expand in the next 2-3 years, the following cities are ready and have NHL caliber facilities ready to go:
o Atlanta (yeah, I know, but their facility is fine, it’s the owners of it that are jerks)
o Kansas City
o Seattle
Quebec City’s new arena won’t be complete for another couple of years, and while the new Barclay’s Center in Brooklyn would be a good fit, any team going in there would have to pay a fee to the Ranger, Isles and Devils to be in that area. If that arena doesn’t have an NHL team by 2015, it’s a pretty good bet Charles Wang will move the Islanders into there as he stated he won’t sign a new lease on Nassau Colliseum (the place was a dump the last time I went to game there, in 1983…)
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Sep 22, 2011 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought the Barclays center was too small for the NHL when configured for hockey?
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Sep 22, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
It is in its present configuration, but according to the folks building it, they can build it out for hockey.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
by MikeL-Pivonka on Sep 22, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think there is any way they put a 4th team in the New York area. Only way Brooklyn gets a team is if the Isles move there.. If the NHL expands they will be looking to get better TV markets so having another team in NY won’t help that which is why Brooklyn is out. I think that if anything contraction is more likely which could still work. Two 14 team conferences with 7 team divisions
Also if they were going to expand it would not be to Atlanta or Brooklyn it would be to a new market. While the owners in Atlanta might have been their biggest issue they were still 28th in attendance. They haven’t been above 28th in the league in attendance since 07-08. Owner or not with one of the lowest attendances each year you need even more corporate support and corporations don’t want to support a team that people aren’t going to see.
If, and I don’t think there is a chance, there is expansion it would be somewhere not in the Eastern time zone. Since both Detroit and Columbus want to move East having any new team be in a non-eastern time zone it makes moving them much easier.
There certainly are more large cities in more Westerly time zones that are currently sans team than Eastern cities. So between that and the wish for teams like Detroit and Columbus to switch to the EC, it makes more sense to expand to the West.
Rocking the Red for teams on the banks of the Potomac and at the Gateway Arch and Singing the Blues about Hockey.
Contraction would infuriate me, because I still don’t see the league as having too many teams, and because the teams have revenue sharing, right? I may be way off.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
by Whiter Mage on Sep 26, 2011 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I think there is enough talent for the teams that exist, but there is a scarcity of quality ownership. They have some revenue sharing, but not enough. That’s where the huge battles are that end up crippling sports leagues.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I think Hockey is a sport where there is enough talent on a level where as long as you have “tweeners”, you could probably support two more teams. Quality ownership is a pain in the ass.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
by Whiter Mage on Sep 26, 2011 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Only way Brooklyn gets a team is if the Isles move there..
…And then they’d have to rename the team as the Brooklyn G*****…Motto: “Fugeddaboudit!” hahaha
To Solve Most Hockey Problems: Score More Goals!
And on Atlanta, having no hockey there seems like such a geographical void. The city’s demographics are great — better than Winnipeg’s where they moved to. I’m sure people would be more likely to support a good, well run franchise. They do in many other cities. Why the Black Hawks themselves were not drawing well when their team was bad.
Granted, the Thrashers have essentially had nothing go right for them and their bad ownership didn’t help. But it seems like such a void.
Rocking the Red for teams on the banks of the Potomac and at the Gateway Arch and Singing the Blues about Hockey.
The demographics may be good but it really has never been a great sports town. Even the Hawks who were 5th in the East last year in the NBA were 20th in attendance by % and 22nd by attendance number. Year before the were 3rd in the East and were 18th (%) and 19th (#). So the city didn’t even support a winning team. The Braves are 20th (%) and 15th (#) with the 8th best record in baseball. At the Falcons were 19th in % and 15th in average attendance last year as the best team in the NFC. The city while big in numbers just doesn’t support its sports teams especially hockey as it is not big in the south.
by icehammer97 on Sep 22, 2011 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
don’t underestimate the effect that a thoroughly disinterested ownership group combined with a string of losing seasons can have on a team. Your 100% right that professional sports is not the focus in Atlanta; those teams need to be putting a quality product out every single night to attract the bare minimum to stay alive. When you then have the Trashers, who can’t make the playoffs to save their lives, losing star players left and right, and a ownership who is utterly unwilling to make any sort of commitment, of course they’re going to fail.
Pledge Drive 2011-2012: CARSON KOLZIG FOUNDATION! Supporting autism awareness and treatment.
If a team has to be great every year to keep the team from folding then that market isn’t good for a team. Like I said the other teams are all winning and still in the bottom half of their leagues or worse in attendance. If that is true for the more mainstream sports then hockey doesn’t stand a chance.
by icehammer97 on Sep 23, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Another Idea...
Another weird idea: ditch geogrpahy entirely and go with a European Soccer style system.
Have a First, Second, Third and Fourth division, with 8 teams in the First and Second, and Seven Teams in the Third and Fourth. The top 2 in divisions 2, 3 and 4 move up one division in the next season, and the bottom 2 in divisions 1, 2 and 3 move down. As incentive to get to the top divisions, the playoffs would include 7 teams from division 1, 4 from division 2, 3 from division 3 and 2 from division 4 (16 teams as before). Every team would play every other team twice (58 games) and then the remaining 24 games be played like this: In division 1 and 2, play an additional 2 games within the division (14 games), and an additional 10 games in the other division. That way a division 1 team plays every team in division 1 4 times, every team in division 2 three times or four times, and every team in divisions 3 and 4 twice. Teams in division 3 and 4 would play everyone in their division twice more (12 games) and everyone in the other division twice more, except for 2 teams (also 12 games) in addition to the first 58. If the NHL is clever, they might schedule the first set of home and home games for everyone first, then the interdivision play, ending the season with only division games… talk about intense.
Winnipeg? Winnipeg??? Oy! (And now it's official...)
If they do go to four divisions, I think an alternate weird, though slightly less radical idea could be this:
If you have divisions A, B, C, D, scrap the idea of set conference pairings, and change the two divisions that are paired together to make each half of the playoff bracket each year. So,
A-B, and C-D the first year,
A-C, and B-D the next year, and
A-D, and B-C the third year.
The in-season schedule would have to change each year to make more match ups between each of the paired divisions for determining playoff seedings. The advantages would be that the travel burden would be more balanced, and the playoff matchups would be able to have more variety. Of course, you’d have to expand to make divisions equal sized.
CAPS FN Ashburn, VA
my vote would be SE (if there is one) TB/FL/WASH/CAR/NAS or DET/COL The reason I say that is both DET/COL are in the Eastern time zone
NE if it isn’t broke don’t try to fix it
Atlantic- same as NE
Central MIN/ST Louis/NAS,(if they don’t get moved)DAL/ relocate the NYI (if they move )to a centrral time zone
change the name of the NW to Mountain EDM/COL/PHX/CAL/DET (if they don’t move)(reason for that is it is only 1 time zone away.
The pacific reamains the same w/ the exception of Dallas and Vancouver. swap those 2
Just for the record, COL is Colorado. You should have used CBJ at the top – that was really confusing.
My mind is all twisted like a peanut.
Must confess I don’t really like the idea of moving either the Blue Jackets or the Red Wings to the SE. Granted, the other divisions of the East are in good shape. If Detroit were to move to the East, the most logical place would be the Northeast and then we’d have to move out a team from there, most likely Boston or even Buffalo. As for the Blue Jackets, I would put them in the Atlantic and move the Flyers to the SE.
Yes, it’s difficult to kick out a team from either the Atlantic or the NE, but Detroit belongs more with the NE teams and Columbus belongs more with the Atlantic teams rather than making either go south.
Rocking the Red for teams on the banks of the Potomac and at the Gateway Arch and Singing the Blues about Hockey.
Detriot owner says he’s been promised that the Wings are moving east. Puck Daddy has the details.
Pledge Drive 2011-2012: CARSON KOLZIG FOUNDATION! Supporting autism awareness and treatment.
I saw that article as well. While I personally think it makes more sense to shift Columbus to the East than Detroit, Detroit is on Eastern Standard (or Daylight) time, depending on season.
If they are to do this and maintain 3 divisions within the Conference, Detroit would relocate to the Northeast. So who would be shifted to the Atlantic to make room — probably the Bruins, as the other NE teams (i.e. Buffalo, Toronto) are comparatively closer to Detroit. Someone would then have to be switched out of the Atlantic to make room for the Bruins (or whoever is switched) and that would probably be the Flyers — by default. Unless they go with uneven divisions of 7 teams and 8 teams. If the economy weren’t so bad, I’d recommend expansion to even up conferences and shift both Columbus and Detroit.
Rocking the Red for teams on the banks of the Potomac and at the Gateway Arch and Singing the Blues about Hockey.
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