"Caps defenseman Dennis Wideman is now listed as being week-to-week with a lower body injury."
about 1 year ago
J.P.
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Just for fun, I’m going to play the optimist and say one week.
Don’t try to figure Sasha out. Just ride the wave.
SWhyno Stephen Whyno
BB: Wideman won’t play tonight or Saturday, so that’s why he’s week-to-week. #Caps
And so I’m going to stick with being an optimist. I need something to be cheery about, right?
Don’t try to figure Sasha out. Just ride the wave.
I’m going to stick with not believing a fucking thing BB says about injuries.
by Berube Doobie Doo on Mar 31, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Is there a reason the NHL is so much less forthcoming about injuries then say, the NFL? Any argument about opponents “targeting” the body part certainly would apply in football as well.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Football has an incredible betting industry. The NHL, not so much.
Don’t try to figure Sasha out. Just ride the wave.
Just one more reason why gambling is awesome.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Well then he said he didn’t know if Wideman would be back before the playoffs.
@kcarrera Katie Carrera
BB said Wideman won’t play today or Sat. As for if he would return b4 the end of the reg season BB: “couldn’t tell you that right now.”
by vtcapsfan99 on Mar 31, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
It sounds less scary if you read this:
"It’s just he’s not ready for tonight and he won’t be ready for Saturday, so it has to be week-to-week," Bruce Boudreau said.
Asked if Wideman could return before the end of the regular season, the Caps coach couldn’t give a straight answer.
"I couldn’t tell you that right now," he said. "I wish I was a doctor, but right now I don’t know."
Sunrise, sunset, swiftly fly the years. One season following another, laden with happiness and tears.
Exactly. And he’s not saying Wideman’s back for the playoffs because he’s not a doctor, not because he’s certain he won’t be.
Cautious optimism……
Sunrise, sunset, swiftly fly the years. One season following another, laden with happiness and tears.
Remember when Greener was put on LTIR, and everyone with the team was saying that meant he can return after March 22nd, and we all took that to mean he would return March 23rd?
"I remembered when he said that and I kind of looked at him during the warm up and told myself that I got to shut these guys out tonight." - Michal Neuvirth, 02.06.11.
No. No I don’t.
Not to snark, but I think most folks were grounded in the reality that that was rather hopeful.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I can get on board with “cautious optimism.” We still have almost two weeks before the playoffs and these guys heal quickly for the most part. That doesn’t feel like an unrealistic expectation to me whereas getting Green back for the first series does.
"Hockey won’t hold still for a portrait. To gain a glimpse inside you join it in progress—just as the players do."--epilogue of 24/7
by capsyoungguns on Mar 31, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s a women’s prison down the road.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Mar 31, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Makes we wish even more so that they had given Patrick McNeill a couple of games when he was called up….grrrr.
So they have 6 dmen including Sloan and Hershey is on way to Norfolk for games Friday and Saturday.
Does someone get dropped off en route to Norfolk or since they will only be in Norfolk do they wait until they need someone given the emergency recall rules and the non-emergency recalls limited to 4???
Think they’ll gut it out with Sloan for now.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
I think they’ve gotta get a seventh here. Can’t chance it.
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My guess would be one of Fahey or McNeill gets left in DC tonight but not officially called up. Bus can stop somewhere outside of the city and have a car pick up the player with the Hershey bus on the way to Norfolk.
I don’t see the team using a call-up under non-emergency conditions at this time.
Agreed, and that’s what I meant by getting a 7th here – here physically, not transactionally.
And it’s gotta be Fahey, I’d think.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
It makes the most sense and what I was assuming yesterday. My trying to read tea leaves yesterday hinted at that, except for the report I got later from an observant fan that he did take a puck to the leg/knee during Sunday’s Bears game.
As I noted above, I wish they’d given Patrick McNeill a couple of games when they had the opportunity earlier in the season!
I wish they’d given Patrick McNeill a couple of games when they had the opportunity earlier in the season
No question.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
And no hindsight needed.
Oh and if Fahey was held out yesterday because of this and not because of a rest day then maybe the bus won’t need to make a pit-stop.
Well, Tim Leone’s update from Hershey’s practice indicates all the Washington contract dmen in Hershey practiced.
This is so depressing. 9 defensemen, and it’s not enough.
by Berube Doobie Doo on Mar 31, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
True. And yet…Canucks fans are laughing at us.
Sunrise, sunset, swiftly fly the years. One season following another, laden with happiness and tears.
I’ll bet a nickel that we’ll have the last laugh at the end of the 1st round. Chicago-Vancouver will be a delight.
by Berube Doobie Doo on Mar 31, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully! :D Just saying, they had like 28 defensemen on their roster and have gone through pretty much all of them…and are going to win the Presidents’ Trophy. The Caps can weather this storm (I type while wiping tears away…).
Sunrise, sunset, swiftly fly the years. One season following another, laden with happiness and tears.
If they call the seventh now, then someone gets hurt, and the seventh plays, does that count as an emergency or non-emergency call up?
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If they recall him when they have 6 healthy D, non-emergency. If they recall him when they have 5 healthy D, emergency.
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Right. So they’ll probably do what was discussed above, and get the body here but not put it on paper until it becomes necessary.
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Wonder as I do about these things, I can’t help but be curious as to whether that injury happens on a better sheet of ice…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I’m a huge fan of that topic not being swept under the carpet, but doubt the ice changes much in that situation.
I dunno. It looked like he caught a rut and wrenched his right leg…
Patron saint of quality footwear.
yeah, you either go with he blew a wheel and Ruutu’s knee/shin went into Wideman’s thigh hard ot he blew a wheel and hyper-extended something.
VC ice is the most responsible party in that injury.
Many a night from yonder ivied casement, ere I went to rest,
Did I look on great Orion sloping slowly to the West.
Agree. i was looking at that hit via the animated gif here, and it happened to be scrolled mostly off the top of the screen. As a result, just his legs were visible. It turned out to be a good thing. Looks like he was making his turn and the impact from Ruutu hit his thigh. That STOPPED his upper leg, and his lower leg, with the weight of the turn on it, continued forward for the hyperextension.
Stand on your left leg, hold your right foot off the ground a couple inches. Snap kick your right foot quickly forward. That jolting pain in your knee…yeah..that’s it.
Don’t know the role of ice quality either way. I’m a medic, not an Ice Tech.
Occasionally wrong, never uncertain.
by VaMedic on Mar 31, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It’s the spot where Semin falls down pretty much once a game. Also, behind one of the nets. Can’t remember which, but it’s funny once you notice how often he falls down in those areas.
Many a night from yonder ivied casement, ere I went to rest,
Did I look on great Orion sloping slowly to the West.
I thought he looked like he lost his edge, which could be an issue with his skate as much as it could have been a rut or some bad ice.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Mar 31, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
If nothing else, just wondering aloud keeps the issue on people’s minds…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
At least AO would’ve had a legit reason to go after Ruutu if he’d still drove his knee through Wideman.
by DrinkingPartner on Mar 31, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I was down for warmups and couldnt believe how bad the ice was. There where divots left from the zamboni’s tread on the tires. It looked pathetic
Just rub some dirt on it
by Trailblaza05 on Mar 31, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Bob Hartley improved Atlanta’s ice with some mixture he called “dirty water” or something like that, that made it a little more sturdy even in less than ideal conditions. Or you keep the place cold and stop letting the goddamn Circus come into town!
by DrinkingPartner on Mar 31, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
There are lots of places that put things in the ice to make it harder. I have to imagine the entire NHL is on to this. It’d be ridiculous if they weren’t using those methods.
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VC is just inept at ice making/keeping, then, if that’s true.
by DrinkingPartner on Mar 31, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
but other arenas have basketball teams and host concerts and shit. is VC ice worse than on those places?
According to most people, yeah, actually.
by DrinkingPartner on Mar 31, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess it depends what team you talk about. MSG is every bit as bad as VC. I have to imagine Staples isn’t great. The FLA teams have bad ice…
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You have to wonder how much having the heat generated by the metro uner the arena affects everything.
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Mar 31, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Cali is blessed with low humidity
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Mar 31, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
VC didn’t make the list of worst ice in this year’s HNIC NHLPA poll. I was hoping that meant things were getting better.
Worse ice (according to the players):
1. BankAtlantic Center
2. MSG
3. St. Pete Times Forum
4. Honda Center
5. Staples Center
Best ice:
1. Rexall Place
2. Bell Centre
3. Joe Louis Arena
4. Xcel Energy Center
5. Rogers Arena
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Panthers.
"My favorite fan base in D.C. Is United's. Period. The end." - Steinberg
by Bald Pollack on Mar 31, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
David Booth, Tomas Vokoun, and the Rochester Amerks?
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Mar 31, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Another great reason not to want to face the Rangers in Round 1 (as pointed out to me by Tyler).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I think that DC’s high humidity levels cause issues, and dehumidification on a large scale is not feasible.
by Berube Doobie Doo on Mar 31, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Apparently this was a big deal at dev camp at Kettler last summer. They got a little cagey about all the people coming and going through the main doors.
Interesting. It’d be a heck of a lot easier/cheaper to do at Kettler, too.
by Berube Doobie Doo on Mar 31, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, and usually (from what I’m told, I wouldn’t know good ice if it bit me in the face) the ice at Kettler is pretty good. But dev camp had 95+ degree temps along with the body heat of 3000 people crowding the rink. That was about the max bodies that building could take.
I assure you the ice at Kettler is not usually good. The Capitals rink tends to be somewhat better, but even that can be hit or miss.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Mar 31, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully they are just being cautious and holding him out til the playoffs. No need to risk further injury in the regular season.
"And then they’ll look at guys in my situation, that could play three good games in a row and have one bad shift, and they’ll say, ‘Well, that’s why he’s been in the minor leagues his whole career.'" --Matt Hendricks
I’m going to guess he’ll be suiting up for game 1. To me it looked like an ankle sprain and not a knee or something worse. Of course, I’m not a doctor but sources tell me he has “sprain-like” symptoms so that’s what I’m going with.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
Judging by the replay on TV, it seemed pretty clear to be a knee-on-knee collision, which is why AO got so mad in the first place.
by DrinkingPartner on Mar 31, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Eh, could be. Wasn’t exactly clear to me where Ruutu’s leg hit him and his skate did slide out a bit when he fell.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Mar 31, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s kind of interesting – it was backwards from most hits, as it looked fairly dirty at full speed, and then the slow mo kind of changed my mind on it.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
by Whiter Mage on Mar 31, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Wideman definitely lost his edge before he got hit. Not sure it would’ve been a knee-on-knee if not for that, as JP alluded to.
by DrinkingPartner on Mar 31, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
lets hope…it doesnt take much to get a game off right now though….anyone the slightest bit hurt gets the night off.
Remember what Dale Hunter said about him when he came to DC. Would take puck to the face to stop a goal or something to that effect. Essentially Dale Hunter said he’s a tough guy, so I have hope he will be able to play through things when it counts.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Mar 31, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
It’ll work. I was more going for the short Charlie from it’s always sunny no.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
by Whiter Mage on Mar 31, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe?
"My favorite fan base in D.C. Is United's. Period. The end." - Steinberg
by Bald Pollack on Mar 31, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
/mandatory
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
by zephyr on Mar 31, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Simple request…in no way should this change the timeline for Green’s return!!!
by sk84fun_dc on Mar 31, 2011 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Absolutely. Definitely the primary concern (and pretty similar to “Arnott’s week-to-week… don’t let that impact the decision on when to bring back Backstrom”).
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Too late
VogsCaps
While Wideman certainly out for rest of homestand and likely longer, Boudreau did say that Green could practice as soon as tomorrow. #Caps.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Eh, there’s no reason to think that the two are related. Unless they are.
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Wow coach, I’m suddenly feeling much better.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Green’s feeling better could very well have predicated the downgrade in Wideman’s status.
The keyboard is mightier.
Same difference. Either way guys are playing hurt when they shouldn’t be playing at all.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
With Green It’s a matter of whether he’s still experiencing symptoms. If he’s not, no reason he shouldn’t be playing.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Skating with the team does not = game ready. Let’s assume he practices tomorrow and feels fine. I say it’s still at least a week (see, end of regular season) until he’s ready to play.
Don’t try to figure Sasha out. Just ride the wave.
by gfcaps fan on Mar 31, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, that’s obvious but we’re playing out a scenario. I’m saying that he probably isn’t ready and is rushing himself back. Breed was saying that maybe he really is ready so Wideman isn’t going to play although maybe he would have if Green isn’t ready.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
If Green’s rushing back from not being game-fit I have no problem with that. He’s played 50 games this year so no reason he should be a disaster.
As long as the team is doing what tis supposed to with the head injury I’ll take a 70 percent Mike Green against Florida.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
The Caps have no choice in the matter any longer. The league has handed down a strict set of guidelines regarding head injuries and every team has to follow them to the letter. Green won’t get back into a game until he passes all the tests exactly as required by the new mandate.
It’s not the same difference. One scenario suggests Green is rushing back improperly while the other scenario suggests Green is fine.
The keyboard is mightier.
I can’t envision a scenario where Green is “rushed back improperly.”
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Huh? I’m not talking about Green in both cases. Read a few posts up.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
I think we’re talking past each other.
To be clear I’m saying that the following scenario is possible: 1) Green has made substantial progress and then 2) therefore Wideman isn’t rushing back.
I’m suggesting there’s no need to assume the inverse — that Green is rushing back because Wideman is hurt. Trying to put on my optimism hat.
The keyboard is mightier.
Don’t blame you, but let’s all remember that Green could very well experience an increase in symptoms from the exertion of a full practice. Even if he’s practicing, that doesn’t mean much (but still, baby steps and whatnot).
Good point, also he hasn’t participated in any contact since he was injured, so that could cause some problems.
by vtcapsfan99 on Mar 31, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t get the whole non-disclosure thing regarding injuries in the NHL. Why is it such a big deal? I hate being told one day that a player is “day to day” and the very next day it is “week to week” and the day after that the player is placed on LTIR.
"Bad leadership, coaches. I haven't heard one F-bomb." - Alan May (mic'd up) at the 2011 Winter Classic Alumni Game
This isn’t directed at you, but why do fans feel that it’s so important that they know the specifics of a player’s injury and, in turn, get so upset with a coach because they won’t tell them? To me, there are only four parties that need to know every detail about an injury; the player, the doctor/trainer, the GM and the coach. Everyone of those four groups needs to be totally honest with each other and the doctor/trainer have to have the final say as to when a player is healthy enough to get back on the ice. Nothing I have seen or heard indicates the Caps act any differently about revealing information on injuries than the rest of the league. And frankly, if they started revealing more information than required, I’d be upset with them. As long as the medical treatment a player receives is top notch and they’re not rushed back before they’re ready, I’m perfectly fine with minimum information on injuries.
by b.orr4 on Mar 31, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
why do fans feel that it’s so important that they know the specifics of a player’s injury and, in turn, get so upset with a coach because they won’t tell them?
Speaking for myself, the answer is because I’ve come to expect that information in professional sports. If no leagues told us what was wrong with players I wouldn’t care.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Every league is different and none of them give a crap how the others operate. Expecting the NHL to follow the NFL or MLB is fruitless. The only thing they have in common is that they’re pro sports leagues.
I’d say almost ever sports league is more open about injuries than the NHL.
When you’re the exception rather the rule, expect irritated fans.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
In fact the NFL gets very crabby when injuries are not properly disclosed. Not that the NFL is any model right now…
Choking since 1985.
Yes the teams get fined for not properly disclosing injuries. Favre’s shoulder injury at the end of the Jet’s season wasn’t disclosed and then he had surgery in the off-season. The Jets were fined for that.
by vtcapsfan99 on Mar 31, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
When you’re the exception rather the rule, expect irritated fans.
There’s no 30-second break after every 5 seconds of play; players don’t wear shoes on the playing surface; and ver running out of bounds is a bitch. IOW, hockey’s already exceptional, and your expectation of knowing a stranger’s medical condition probably is the least of it.
....when the truth is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it.
--GMGM
The expectation of knowing the “stranger’s” medical condition goes along with being paid handsomely to play a sport. You pay me $3 million a year and I’ll happily tell you if the issue with my right leg is the ankle or knee.
If they’re worried about people knowing the condition of their bodies professional sports shouldn’t be their job.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
You pay me $3 million a year and I’ll happily tell you if the issue with my right leg is the ankle or knee.
And yet, the people who are being paid $3M a year to play our favorite game apparently do not feel that way. I can’t at all understand how the diagnosis affects one’s enjoyment of the game. Backstrom’s out hurt sucks because I like to watch him play; knowing (or not) the details of his ailment, beyond when he’s liable to return to work, is useful…how?
....when the truth is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it.
--GMGM
knowing (or not) the details of his ailment, beyond when he’s liable to return to work, is useful…how?
Don’t you want to be able to have a clue as to why he’s losing/winning faceoffs or shooting wristers/slappers, etc.? Having more information enhances the enjoyment of following the game for some folks. Not sure how that’s a controversial assertion.
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It comes at the risk of potentially giving up a competitive advantage. If you know Backstrom has a bum shoulder, you’re going to bury him every time he goes into the corner to try to influence his decisions (and hopefully cause him to force bad passes, or chip the puck around the boards, whatever).
The teams need to balance their desire to hold their cards close for competitive reasons, with the fans (who ultimately pay everyone’s salaries) desire to have that information.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Mar 31, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
We’re going in Nylanders here.
I get it. The theory is that you open a player up to having his injury targeted by opposing players when you disclose that injury. I just happen to think that the extent to which non-disclosure actually protects players is negligible. If I had good reason to believe that non-disclosure protected players, I’d support it fully.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Mar 31, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’m not saying I agree with the policy, but I can understand where the teams are coming from. If you’re going use the logic that detailed disclosures put players at risk, why would you disclose anything beyond the obvious injuries?
I’m sure those things get touched on in team meetings. Its no different than what BB said about Malkin. If you hit him hard, you can get him off his game. The same applies to a guy with a nagging injury. A good coach would point that out to his players.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Mar 31, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t you want to be able to have a clue as to why he’s losing/winning faceoffs or shooting wristers/slappers, etc.?
Yep. It’s one reason I spend an obscene amount of time on this site. But when Alex was shanking 1timers by the bushel / rotating his wrist under an ice-pak on the bench, we already knew the main point: he’s hurt. I wish Natty were here to confirm, but I’m pretty sure this room was full of thoughtful speculation about the nature, cause, and extent of those injuries, long before the team said word one about them.
As a fan, I’d be happy to chew on sorts of access that I can see the team reasonably denying. I don’t see (or pretend the power to start) a controversy; I just dont see ‘detailed injury reports’ as a big benefit to the team or its fans. Krejci knows, this crew gives us enough other things to talk about!
....when the truth is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it.
--GMGM
And yet, the people who are being paid $3M a year to play our favorite game apparently do not feel that way.
That decision rests with their employers. And like I’ve written, some of the teams don’t see any value in the policy and are going along with it just because everybody else is.
nowing (or not) the details of his ailment, beyond when he’s liable to return to work, is useful…how?
Why are we going beyond that? That’s exactly why I want to know.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Natty!
I was just invoking you!
....when the truth is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it.
--GMGM
I think a very strong case can be made that for a League that struggles to attract and/or keep fans, every bit of interaction, transparency, etc. helps. We all invest time, emotion and money in these guys – we’d like to know what’s going on with them. We’d like to be able to have an explanation for why the guy’s only taking slapshots and not wristers or had trouble turning a corner. We’d like to know whether a guy’s likely to play in a game for which we might buy tickets.
The only reason we don’t know all of this is that Vegas doesn’t care enough. That’s it, pure and simple.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Well Vegas cares a hell of a lot about the NFL, but even their injury reporting is incomplete and opaque.
First Round Exit! (Clap Clap ClapClapClap) First Round Exit!
It’s a lot better than what we’ve got with the NHL. Worlds better.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Not really. I’m a Patriots fan and every week they said Nick Kaczur was questionable with a back problem. Turns out he never played a game and needed surgery. Every coach will manipulate the system to tell you exactly what they want you to know which is as little as possible.
So “back problems” and not an “upper body injury”? Already that’s better than the NHL.
And all of Kaczur’s back stuff happened in pre-season, correct? We’re talking regular season/playoffs here.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
And coaches/players get big time fines for significant disinformation, no?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Exactly. Bill Belichick has been manipulating the injury reports for years. If the NHL required more disclosure, you see every player on the roster listed each week with an assortment of ailments. No sane coach is going to reveal specifics on injuries.
Although even with BB the manipulation is whether a guy will play or not, not the nature of the injury. We know what’s wrong the player but have to wait until three hours before kickoff to find out if they’re going to play.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Disagree. Hockey is the only major sport played in a contained area with the players carrying weapons. Revealing the specifics of injuries will result in targeting of those injuries by the opposition and you hear that all the time from the players themselves. I know I was irritated with Backstrom when he told the world that he had a cracked thumb because he practically invited every opposing player to go after it.
That’s a cop-out, IMO. There are rules intended to prevent injuries, pre-existing or otherwise. And whether they announce stuff or not, it’s easy enough to figure out – one look at the replay on Letang’s slash and it was pretty obvious where he was hurt.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Exactly. And Football players have pretty dangerous weapons strapped to their heads and shoulders. They are perfectly capable of going after a guy’s knee if they wanted to.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Really? If you hit a guy with your helmet in football, you’re risking a 15-yard penalty, expulsion from the game, major fine, suspension and, worst of all, paralysis. Hit a guy with a stick on the thumb and all you’re risking is a broken stick and a two minute penalty.
Yes. Players in the NFL lead with their helmets all the time, despite the risks you’re describing.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Not any more. Not even close. Just ask James Harrison of the Steelers. If they do, they immediately get flagged, fined and/or suspended.
Right. So enforce rules already on the books or make new ones to address the issue.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
You just proved my point. Despite the punishment guys still lead with their helmet.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
And therefore if having rules in place don’t dissuade players from targeting injuries, then why should teams disclose their injuries (aside from Vegas/betting reasons)?
by Eggseronius on Mar 31, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Except that the punishment has curbed the behavior.
First Round Exit! (Clap Clap ClapClapClap) First Round Exit!
And I don’t even think guys lead with their helmets to target injuries.
My only point was you can’t say targeting an injury is possible in hockey without admitting it is also possible in football.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
That’s a cop-out, IMO.
How is protecting a player from further injury a cop-out? And as to transparency, do you really think the NHL is losing fans because they’re not saying enough about injuries? Somehow, I find that hard to believe.
I don’t think the protection it affords is real.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Well, we disagree but you have the vehicle to ask the players if they’d like to have all their injuries revealed to the opposing team. I’d be real curious to hear their answers and if I’m totally wrong on my assumption.
We all know how they’d answer.
Another question – how would transparency regarding whether or not a player has a concussion increase that player’s risk of further injury? You can’t target that one, can you?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
How/why would he? How could a player’s head be legally (or on the fringes of legally) targeted?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
He gave an interview a few weeks back and essentially claimed that because everyone knew he had a few concussions, everyone went after his head. I’m not sure I agree with his claims, I’m just throwing it out there.
First, I tend to agree with your general point JP, that the opposing players already know why a given player was out. (Though they may not know if one is playing hurt). However, the answer to the question asked is to hit hard at the shoulders, or collar bone area and snap the head (like whiplash). Concussion is a brain, not head, injury. Whipping the head sloshed the brain inside the skull and injures.
Do I think players try to do that. Generally, no. But that’s the answer to the question asked.
Occasionally wrong, never uncertain.
No, you can’t target heads any longer in the NHL. At least not if you want to stay in the league. Concussions are a different story now and that’s why when a player receives a concussion the team says so once it’s definitively determined by the medical staff. Everyone knows Savard, Crosby and Green have concussions. We don’t know what’s wrong with Ovechkin or Arnott. There aren’t any strict rules in place against targeting hands and wrists and ankles and ribs other than a 2 or 5-minte penalty.
Concussions are a different story now and that’s why when a player receives a concussion the team says so once it’s definitively determined by the medical staff.
I can guess where this is heading…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
You can target the head, if it’s a hit from the front and an elbow isn’t involved. Rule 48 doesn’t address hits like the one Lindros took from Stevens – that’s still totally legal.
Matt Bradley: He has sensitive skin, no?
You hit a guy in the head even from the front and I guarantee you’ll get a penalty. You might not get suspended, but you’ll be in the box.
What category does this on fall under? Because it looks like a headshot to me(pre-Rule 48, though), and certainly resulted in a concussion:
by Berube Doobie Doo on Mar 31, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
In most cases as long as teams have access to TVs they’ll be able to figure out where a guy was injured. If they want to target a player they still can.
A Pens FO guy said he was more than happy to be more open about injuries, but since the league doesn’t mandate it he worried the team would be at a competitive disadvantage.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Yep. Everyone on earth with access to a TV and/or the Internet can have a pretty good idea of what any injury is. It’s pretty similar to announcing a contract but not the terms – it’s readily available quickly enough.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I think this is true in a lot of cases but not all. I haven’t seen anyone who has been able to say conclusivly why OV and Arnott were out.
Wideman’s injury could be a knee, anke, thigh, or possibly something else that wouldn’t be as apparent.
by Eggseronius on Mar 31, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
But like the P-G guy wrote in the Q & A I referenced earlier, there’s a good chance opposing teams know exactly what’s wrong with Wideman because players between teams talk so much.
The fans are probably the only ones who don’t know.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
On Ovi, Dan Hellie of NBC4 tweeted that he had his knee scoped (I believe). Katie had “groin” on Arnott. Guarantee players know even more than we do.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I hadn’t heard that about OV.
I’m sure players do know much more than we do, but I’d bet there’s alot of disinformation and false rumors among the players as well.
If I was a player with an injury I’d rather be going out there with the small chance that the other team either didn’t know what my injury was or heard it was something else rather than giving the opposition 100% certainty by announcing it.
Actually here’s the exact tweet from Hellie:
#Ovechkin healed. Source tells NBC4 he needed time to recover from a minor medical procedure on lower body… May have been Knee.
And of course the players would rather not announce it. They’d also rather not have their salaries announced, have to talk to the media after losses, do team promotions, attend certain charity events, etc.,
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
True about what the players would like, so change that last paragraph to – I’d like to know what injuries the players have but would rather that the players on my team could have a litthe less chance of getting injuries aggrivated and therefore be more productive.
Right – you’d rather Nicklas Backstrom not be injured than have every detail of what his injury is. We all would. I just don’t think that the NHL’s injury reporting policy is really as protective as people think (or as teams/players would have you believe).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I think whole non-disclosure of injuries is 80% team paranoia and a “just the way it’s done” attitude. I do, however, think the threat of guys targetting injuries is real and thus the non-disclosure can be appropriate.
There are some rules in place to prevent guys from going after other players with their sticks, etc. But if it’s disclosed that Eric Fehr has a right shoulder issue, don’t you think other guys are going to make a concerted effort to legally hit that shoulder?
If you know the top line center has a hurt right wrist, would you take a 2 minute slashing penalty if it meant he couldn’t take faceoffs or shoot the puck well? Sure you would.
I think the vast majority of the players don’t focus on whether a guy’s injured, much less make a point of doing anything about it. But there are guys who would seek that advantage, particularly in the playoffs. Why give them any additional information to help them out?
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Mar 31, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
But if it’s disclosed that Eric Fehr has a right shoulder issue, don’t you think other guys are going to make a concerted effort to legally hit that shoulder?
I’d want my guys making concerted efforts to legally hit everything that moves. So yes.
If you know the top line center has a hurt right wrist, would you take a 2 minute slashing penalty if it meant he couldn’t take faceoffs or shoot the puck well?
Ask Adam Graves – no pre-existing injury needed.
Providing injury information would be for the fans. You know, the ones who pay the salaries…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
My boss pays my salary. Damned if I can see how that entitles her to details of my medical file. I pay to see ‘em play, and when they’re banged up to where it compromises (or cancels) their performance, I can see that too. The idea that fans of a game need, much less are entitled to, a Diagnosis is very strange to me.
....when the truth is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it.
--GMGM
My boss pays my salary. Damned if I can see how that entitles her to details of my medical file.
Wow, that’s not a straw man at all.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Providing injury information would be for the fans. You know, the ones who pay the salaries…
I must be mistaking your point. The "people who pay [entertainers’] salaries should have entertainers’ medical info because what now?
....when the truth is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it.
--GMGM
Not sure I ever said “should,” “need,” or “entitled to.”
Also not sure why you’re throwing athletes in with “entertainers,” generally, since obviously an athlete’s daily health is a wee bit more important than, say, an actor’s (can’t recall ever seeing Brad Pitt listed as “day-to-day” on the set of a flick).
My point is that it’s information and fans want information. I think the upside to providing that information outweighs the downside. Simple as that.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I would add that supplemental discipline could be discussed for targeting players’ injuries with dirty play like slashing/knee-on-knee, etc, for those concerned that this sort of thing does/would occur. Some amount of it is inevitable and legal, though.
by Berube Doobie Doo on Mar 31, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
The same supplemental discipline that lets Cooke walk from a knee-to-knee on Ovi among other things? They can’t even get it right when players target uninjured parts of a player.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Mar 31, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
To borrow a word used near the beginning of the discussion, if transparency about injuries was clear (or at the very least less murky), then the tide could lift that boat, no?
"My favorite fan base in D.C. Is United's. Period. The end." - Steinberg
by Bald Pollack on Mar 31, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I just have no confidence in the supplemental discipline process, disclosure or not.
If you put targetting injuries on the table, then you could also have a case where teams are purposely OVER disclosing injuries to keep the opposition from risking additional punishment.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Mar 31, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t say I recall your particular issue with the SD system, but I’ve got to think making the Lig put their cards on the table would certainly help players know what they could(’nt) do and thus the players could work a little less covertly.
Anyway, I don’t have a dog in this race so if you’ll excuse me, it’s martini time.
"My favorite fan base in D.C. Is United's. Period. The end." - Steinberg
by Bald Pollack on Mar 31, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone knows that hitting from behind is bad and should not be tolerated, and yet supplemental discipline for hits from behind is a joke. I don’t think that would change if the league announced all injuries and said they can’t be targeted.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see the upside (or, frankly, the downside) so clearly. I mean, once you know a guy’s out of the lineup, and when he might be back, isn’t the rest more like gossip and less like sport? “Hamstring” equips one for more targeted speculation (re: treatment, return date) than “lower-body injury”, but we’d still just be speculating, no?
I dont see how flipping through Fehr’s medical file gets me any closer to the game than reading “16, shoulder again, who knows.” If I could get the league to be more forthcoming about any one thing, injury details would be Sloan-deep on the chart.
....when the truth is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it.
--GMGM
Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one – I find that additional information makes following and understanding the sport more enjoyable. Maybe that’s just me.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I find that additional information makes following and understanding the sport more enjoyable.
I’m with you, particularly as we move close to the playoffs and we fans dissect every little thing.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
it’s the same reason most of us scour this site and these comment sections every day. to improve our knowledge about the sport/team, which improves our appreciation of the games.
by Natty Bumppo on Mar 31, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My point is that it’s information and fans want information. I think the upside to providing that information outweighs the downside. Simple as that.
Just for accuracy sake you might want to throw the word “some” in front of fans. Obviously, just based on the comments here, not every fan cares about the exact nature of an injury.
Damned if I can see how that entitles her to details of my medical file.
Does you job depend on your ability to use your limbs at a world-class level?
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
I’d want my guys making concerted efforts to legally hit everything that moves. So yes.
Sure you would, but we know it doesn’t happen all the time. Some additional incentive to do so isn’t a bad thing, is it?
Ask Adam Graves – no pre-existing injury needed.
Clearly some players need no incentive to be douchbags…
I’m a fan and I pay to see players play and hopefully win championships. If non-disclosure of injuries will keep Backstrom healthier or Ovi in the lineup, I’m ok with that even if the risk of injury is only slightly higher with full disclosure.
Besides, one of the most facinating days of the hockey year is the day after a team is eliminated from the playoffs and you actually learn what they’ve been playing with the whole time. Unbelievable.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Mar 31, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m a fan and I pay to see players play and hopefully win championships. If non-disclosure of injuries will keep Backstrom healthier or Ovi in the lineup, I’m ok with that even if the risk of injury is only slightly higher with full disclosure.
I agree completely. I just don’t think that’s a reality (that disclosure would materially increase risk).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Even if it provides a 5% less chance of injury, I’ll take it. But I agree that any advantage is slight given all the info out there now. Twenty years ago it was more significant.
On the bright side, 200+ comments about an undisclosed injury. The non-disclosure policy helps keep the Rink healthy!
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Mar 31, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to add to this point, Jordan Staal was asked if his foot got any extra attention from the opposing team’s sticks (last year when he was wearing a protective cover on his skate). He said that thankfully the shield hadn’t been tested yet but if it was Crosby’s foot, it would probably be a different story. Sorry to anyone offended by my using a Pen’s example, it’s just the one that came to mind. And also, players targeting injuries like that wouldn’t necessarily be penalized for it. As a fan, I want to know everything there is to know about the players. However, I can see why teams don’t want to share everything. In the end, their need is much greater than mine.
If Lurking equaled Learning, I'd be a force to be reckoned with.
I also recall that during the Pens/Wings 09 series there were a number of complaints about Pens’ players slashing Datsyuk’s hurt ankle area. I couldn’t even begin to parse out whether it was true or whether the complaints were part of the working the media or a bit of both.
"Hockey won’t hold still for a portrait. To gain a glimpse inside you join it in progress—just as the players do."--epilogue of 24/7
by capsyoungguns on Mar 31, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s certainly a fair point (not knowing what is truth and what is complaining/ media spin). I’d like to believe that most players are honorable and not looking to injure one another. Of course, I realize there are many people in the “do whatever it takes to win” camp. I suppose the bigger the name, the more talk there will be of targeting.
If Lurking equaled Learning, I'd be a force to be reckoned with.
And also, players targeting injuries like that wouldn’t necessarily be penalized for it.
If I believed for a second that the league’s policy prevented team’s from knowing an opponent’s injury I’d agree with you. I just don’t think that’s the case.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Why do you feel they’re being vague, then? Do you think they’re fooling themselves into thinking it offers some protection for their players? They must feel they have a good reason, other than to generate fan discussion. :)
If Lurking equaled Learning, I'd be a force to be reckoned with.
Not sure. My guess is there is an element of “it’s how we’ve always done it.”
I’m not saying every little thing bruise should be out there. But if I paid money months ago to take my kid to see the Washington Capitals I think I have a right to know why Alex Ovechkin isn’t playing.
The fact the league allows Ovie to say “why don’t you guess?” when the media asked why he’s out is a joke.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
It’s funny you say that because that was exactly my situation in Ottawa. Planned the trip for the kids when the schedule came out and then had to break it to them that Ovi wasn’t playing. Luckily, they’re only 8 and said “but we’ll still see Nicky, right?”. The adults were more disappointed but, for us, thinking it might be his wrist and finding out it may have been his knee didn’t change the fact that we didn’t see him play in that game. I do understand that everyone is different in that respect, though. And I certainly understand JP’s point, since he’s in the business of discussing Caps information. The more, the better.
If Lurking equaled Learning, I'd be a force to be reckoned with.
Maybe they’re wedded to the quaint notion that the default setting for people’s medical information is “private”?
....when the truth is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it.
--GMGM
by redlineblue on Mar 31, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe they’re wedded to the quaint notion that the default setting for people’s medical information is "private"?
So then the team has no right to know either, right? I mean if medical information is private and all.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Riiiiight. The trainers and doctors who are employed by the team to protect the owners investment, the coach who organizes the team, and the GM who staffs the team have exactly the same stake, rights, and need – to – know as the guy in the last row of 109.
....when the truth is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it.
--GMGM
The guy in last row of 109 (a fan) is what makes the league what it is – and isn’t. Being honest with those people is a good thing for a league that needs to grow its base.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
by LucyImHome on Mar 31, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I totally agree with this comment.
But this whole argument is going nowhere because no one can agree on (because no one can know) the extent to which disclosure actually protects players. The “non-disclosure” crowd thinks that “lower-body injury” is a forcefield around the injured player. The “disclosure” crowd thinks that putting a public “X marks the spot” on a player makes him no less vulnerable to attack than if no such information was provided. There’s simply no way this is going to be resolved with that chasm between the sides.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I find this quote telling:
“For what it’s worth, a high-ranking Penguins official has said several times since the NHL enacted its current non-disclosure policy that he would have no problem with making all injury-related information public and probably would prefer that to the set-up now in place, but doesn’t want his club to have the aforementioned competitive disadvantage.”
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Team officials see a competitive disadvantage in disclosing injuries. Very telling indeed.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Actually no, that’s wasn’t his point.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
But are you going to deny he said that? Sure, he would rather have full disclosure. But at the same time he clearly acknowledges that he thinks there is a competitive disadvantage to doing so. I don’t see how that doesn’t support the claim that keeping injuries secret helps teams.
He may have the same preference as you, but he is also supporting all of the people who say that full disclosure hurts the players/teams on the ice.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
He clearly acknowledges there is a competitive disadvantage if his team is the only one doing it.
That’s not the same thing as thinking disclosing injuries is a competitive disadvantage.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Sure. But if disclosing injuries has no effect on what happens on the ice (as you have claimed several times) how would there be any competitive disadvantage if one team did it and the others didn’t?
If he thinks the Pens would be at a disadvantage if they were the only ones doing it, then clearly he thinks that disclosing injuries affects what happens on the ice.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve never argued whether or not there’s a disadvantage if the playing field is not level.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
So then what’s the disadvantage? How else would disclosure affect the playing field if not because other teams would use the knowledge of injuries to their advantage?
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
His point is that his team would be playing by different rules from the rest of the league. By definition that’s a comptitive disadvantage.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Only if it negatively affects competition. If it didn’t affect competition it wouldn’t be a disadvantage, it would just be a different way of going about your business.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
But saying something has no competitive impact if the entire league does it is not the same thing as saying it has no competitive advantage if one team does while the rest of the league does not.
I suppose it’s possible if the Redskins were forced to fully disclose and the other 31 teams were not, there might be an disadvantage.
Suffice it to say I’m not arguing the Capitals should be the only team in the league to disclose, so I don’t see the relevance.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Here’s the relevance:
The argument against disclosure is that revealing injuries allows other teams to target injuries. If everyone does it there is no advantage/disadvantage, but it is still a problem for reasons unrelated to competitive fairness.
This exec acknowledges that there is something about disclosures that puts a team at a disadvantage if they are the only ones doing it.
You have said that other teams won’t target injuries any more than they do now if there is full disclosure.
So if that “something” isn’t targeting injuries, what is it? Why does the Pens exec think there is a disadvantage if his team is the only one to do it? He must think that disclosures affect play on the ice, and the only way to make it fair is to make everyone disclose injuries.
Figuring out how full disclosure affects play on the ice is not only relevant, but critical to this conversation.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
The competitive disadvantage comes from the fact other team aren’t playing by the same rules, not the disclosure itself.
Why would the exec say he wants to do something if the thing he wants to do hurts his team? Shouldn’t we assume he is in the business of winning?
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
The guy in last row of 109 (a fan) is what makes the league what it is – and isn’t. Being honest with those people is a good thing for a league that needs to grow its base.
As the guy in the last row of 109, I gotta tell you I do not care about this issue. If I could get 10 staright answers from McPhee, “Lower body injury, or hamstring pull?” would not come up. Would it for you?
....when the truth is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it.
--GMGM
I just want to know why a player isn’t playing if I’m paying to see the team.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
And “He’s sick / hurt / unconscious; he’ll be back in a few days / more than a week / who the hell knows, it’s a concussion” doesnt answer that question?
....when the truth is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it.
--GMGM
by redlineblue on Mar 31, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, “who the hell knows” does not answer the question of whether a player might be in the lineup for my game.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Well, I’m sure you’re not alone in wishing concussions healed along a predictable timeline. That said, I’ve no idea how “Day to day, lower body” makes your life any better or worse than “Day to day, mild strain of the left hamstring suffered in a corner battle at 8:28 of the 3rd”.
....when the truth is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it.
--GMGM
Actually, I’d love to have that kind of data. Knowing when/how injuries are sustained would increase my appreciation of the game. I could watch the video of the incident, and be on the lookout for that sort of thing in the future.
by Berube Doobie Doo on Mar 31, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Knowing when/how injuries are sustained would increase my appreciation of the game.
But no sport — least of all hockey — provides anything of the kind, and here you are: a devoted Caps fan and Rink regular. I guess there’s something else even cooler than the injuries? Maybe the team is, perversely, focused on retaining you via other means…
....when the truth is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it.
--GMGM
Just because no sport provides it doesn’t mean no sport should provide it. And just because I love the game doesn’t mean I couldn’t love it even more. I talk shit about the NHL all the time when it comes to the things they do wrong. I love not to be able to do that.
by Berube Doobie Doo on Mar 31, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Have to agree. Making the “you owe us” or “tell us so you have/keep fans” line of discussion seems weak. I have yet to have anyone approach going to the game with a “Upper body, WTF is that…I’m not going” attitude.
To say you want to know if player XX will be playing with the team when they come in to town is counter to your purpose. You’d have to show up to find out in uncertainty, but if you KNEW they were out..maybe you’d stay home.
Occasionally wrong, never uncertain.
You’re going to have to show evidence that fuzzy injury reports prevent injuries.
I just read an old Q & A with a Pens beat writer who said that in a lot of cases opposing players are well aware of what injury a guy has since former teammates/buddies do so much chatting. His point was that in a lot of cases the fans are the only ones kept in the dark.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
You’re going to have to show evidence that fuzzy injury reports prevent injuries.
Then likewise shouldn’t you have to show some evidence that vague injury reporting has any effect at all on fan interest or attendance?
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Then likewise shouldn’t you have to show some evidence that vague injury reporting has any effect at all on fan interest or attendance?
My point is that we have a big, shinning example that a more open injury disclosure isn’t a problem (NFL).
I think it’s just common sense that removing a policy which is a regular source of irritation for fans would be good for business. I certainly don’t see how it could hurt the fans’ enjoyment.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
My point is that we have a big, shinning example that a more open injury disclosure isn’t a problem (NFL).
Actually, we don’t. The NFL has injury disclosure and does well, but we have no idea how well the NFL would do if they did not have full injury disclosure. Furthermore, the massive betting culture among NFL fans means that full disclosure is much much more important to NFL fans, and makes a comparison with the NHL not very valid at all.
Fans watch (or don’t watch) hockey for any number of reasons. I don’t think the available information about injuries is high enough on the list to make any difference at all in the league’s popularity or attendance. You say “why annoy fans if it doesn’t prevent injuries?”. Well the NHL can just as easily say “why annoy players and teams if it doesn’t help revenues?”.
Personally I don’t really care about the injury disclosure policy. I just don’t think the league popularity argument in favor of disclosure is any stronger or less full of conjecture than is the targeting injuries argument against disclosure.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Actually, we don’t.
If you disagree then go ahead an send me some links to where players and coaches in the NFL are complaining that the injury-disclosure policy is causing problems.
And I haven’t seen any evidence that players are annoyed by this, particularly because I don’t think they are impacted by the policy very much.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
All I’m saying is that we have only one side for comparison: the situation where there is full disclosure. The other side is purely hypothetical and thus we can’t draw any firm conclusions as to which is better.
And I still don’t think comparing the NHL to the NFL is fruitful for almost any discussion.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
On one side we have a league with an open policy that doesn’t seem to be causing an issue for teams or fans. On the other we have a league with a closed policy that causes an issue for fans without an obvious benefit for teams.
That’s enough to draw firm conclusions
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Haha, really? There are no other intervening factors in the analysis?
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Never said that. But I don’t think a clear case can be made that disclosing injuries is a problem.
My proof is that another North American sport heavy on contact forces disclosure and there haven’t been any issues. There is more evidence for that then there is evidence disclosing injuries hurts NHL team.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
And again, you don’t have any evidence that there are no issues from disclosure because you don’t have the counter situation for comparison. Sure, from the fan’s standpoint there are no issues. But the whole counter argument to your position relies on what happens on the field, and we don’t know what would happen on the field without full disclosure.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
If it was black and white that non-disclosure helped teams a member of the Pens FO would not be saying he wouldn’t mind if the policy changed.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
He also wouldn’t be saying that being the only one to disclose injuries would put him at a disadvantage.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
And I still don’t think comparing the NHL to the NFL is fruitful for almost any discussion.
Plenty of issues where the comparison is warranted. Fans are going to compare NHL to the other major leagues on all kinds of issues, because the other leagues are the competition. It matters how NHL performs relative to other leagues.
This is especially important if we head into October with no NFL games and no NBA games. The new fans who start following hockey will instinctively compare things like officiating, instant replay, TV coverage, etc. to the sports they’re used to watching.
by Berube Doobie Doo on Mar 31, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I would agree on the NHL to NFL comparison. In the NFL, who you are able to hit, where and with what are quite different from the NHL. In the NHL, every player has more access to every other player on the ice and much more opportunity to engage them (with body and stick). Even if you knew a receiver had a bum wrist in the NFL, what are the chances that 5 opposing players would have a chance to target it, or do the damage a stick could do?
If Lurking equaled Learning, I'd be a force to be reckoned with.
by RandomID on Mar 31, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Completely agree. Play in the NFL doesn’t have an equivalent to targeting little slashes to the ankle, wrists, etc.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually there are ways to target injuries in the NFL. Obviously when they tackle someone and get into scrums they can also do all sorts of things to the injured part. Another way is to go right at that guy. For example a cornerback comes up limping on one play, immediately they throw at him the next play and take advantage. If they knew the player had certain injuries in advance, they take advantage of it in the game plan. Say they knew Michael Vick had a bum ankle, so they knew he wouldn’t be running all over and they didn’t need to bother to use one or two extra guys to contain him. It actually has a big impact but not necessarily in the way you would think.
There are definitely strategic impacts. But hitting hard is ubiquitous in football and all players are supposed to hit their opponents hard every play. From a player safety perspective I don’t think there are the same opportunities to target specific injuries the way there are in hockey. If you are trying to tackle a WR you aren’t going to worry about hitting his bum wrist or ankle, or you are probably not going to make the tackle. There are tons and tons of situations for a player to hack at an injured body part in hockey, and the worst you’ll get is a 2 minute penalty.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I think your disagreement includes the very reasons the NHL should consider it. Part of the reason that the NFL is so huge is that the fans can be so intimately involved following their teams. Plus with fantasy football they care about injuries in the entire league. Out of that comes the NFL Redzone channel which is very popular with any football fan I’ve talked to (they cover all scoring but also cover injuries). The NFL has been very smart about growing their fanbase, until the lockout. If the NHL wants to become more popular, I think disclosing injuries like NFL teams and players do would only help.
Maybe fans care about the NFL so much because they disclose injuries. But I doubt it. I think it’s much more likely that fans play fantasy football and bet on NFL games because they are absolutely obsessed with the sport for reasons completely unrelated to injury disclosure. Because of that, injury disclosure then becomes much more important to them than it would be otherwise.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Obviously you are right, no one is is obsessed with the NFL because they know about injuries and that wasn’t my point. I don’t think people become obsessed with the sport unless they are given all the info/tools they need to be obsessed. Knowing about injuries is just one part of the picture. There is still plenty of discussion among football fans related to injuries. I just meant that the NFL realized they could help grow the interest in their league by providing much info as possible. So now you have all these sports fans running around used to knowing certain things. I found it very odd while becoming a Caps fan to not know much about injuries because I came from the football fan perspective. The NHL can continue on as they always have, but if they are interested in growing their fanbase, that behavior isn’t going to help.
Well clearly none of us needed detailed injury info to become obsessed with the NHL. I just don’t think that that detailed injury reports have any effect on the popularity of the league. The NFL’s policy is a result of the popularity, not any sort of cause, IMO. If the NFL ended this lockout and the new CBA removed the full disclosure policy I doubt they’d lose any money.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
This is a reasonable point, and on some level I agree.
Maybe I’m alone on this, but I actually really enjoy the drama and guesswork generated by the disinformation put out by teams on injuries. Hell, we’re all having fun talking about it, right? Intrigue creates storylines.
I’d be on board with the following rule:
An NHL team shall disclose in detail the nature of the injuries of its players so long as none of its next ten games shall be played against a team that includes Steve Downie, Daniel Carcillo, Matt Cooke, or Trevor Gillies…
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Mar 31, 2011 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Whatever, I don’t even pay attention to what the Caps’ PR dept. says about injuries anymore. Arnott was week-to-week and missed less time than Fehr who was day-to-day. At this rate I’ll be thrilled if one of Poti, Wideman or Green are ready for the first round.
That’s a good attitude to have regarding Caps injuries. Best one to have if you want to remain sane.
"And then they’ll look at guys in my situation, that could play three good games in a row and have one bad shift, and they’ll say, ‘Well, that’s why he’s been in the minor leagues his whole career.'" --Matt Hendricks
Human beings aren’t machines and everyone heals at different rates. Arnott may be a tough dude who can handle discomfort while Fehr can’t. I had an ankle injury and my doctor told me I should be fine in 2-3 weeks and it dragged on for 2-3 months. There’s a reason they call it the practice of medicine because they’re learning all the time.
Which doesn’t change the fact that the Caps’ fountain of misinformation is as reliable as the Orange Line
Again, the Caps “fountain of misinformation” is no different than any other team in the NHL. They say what they’re required to say and no more. You just don’t like it, which is fine, but implying they’re doing something no other team is doing is innacurate.
I’m calling it right now: Wideman will be back for Round 1 of the playoffs. Green will be back for Round 2 if we should get there.
Why put off 'til tomorrow what you can put off 'til the day after tomorrow?
I actually think we can beat any of our likely Round 1 opponent without either. It will take other guys – particularly the goalies – stepping up their games, but I could see us getting by Buffalo, NY or Montreal without Wideman and Green.
But I think we need at least one (maybe both) if we have thoughts about moving beyond Round 2.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
I think the Caps are going to need one of them, or the remaining D are going to have to step up their game in getting the puck into transition out of the zone. That is where the Caps struggle without Wideman/Green, and leads to good forechecking teams tilting the ice.
It’s not impossible to win a series without them, but it’s going to be a lot tougher if Carlson is the only D the Caps dress that can calmly move the puck with consistency under pressure (especially since he’s had some rough patches this year).
but it’s going to be a lot tougher if Carlson is the only D the Caps dress that can calmly move the puck with consistency under pressure
Agree 100 percent.
I will say that based on the nature of the Caps’ play when things have been going well recently – good goalie play, take care of their own zone, score just enough to win – losing the more offensive-minded D-man might not be as costly as losing someone like Scott Hannan.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
Crazy that Marco Sturm has been the healthiest of the guys we picked up at the trade deadline.
It is our most modestly priced receptacle.
by Rainbow, Kitty, Beer on Mar 31, 2011 12:36 PM EDT reply actions
I have no problem with Ruutu going full-force to try and make a big hit. It’s one of the things I love about Ovie and it would be hypocritical of me to rip a guy for doing the same thing.
"You do that you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free."
by LucyImHome on Mar 31, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It was a fairly clean hit, all things considered. It only became knee/knee or leg/leg due to Wideman blowing a wheel.
Many a night from yonder ivied casement, ere I went to rest,
Did I look on great Orion sloping slowly to the West.
I mentioned this in the recap, but given how Ruutu was hanging his knee out there it probably would have been a much more serious knee to knee hit had Wideman gone down. That had Ovechkin on Gleason written all over it before Wideman lost his edge.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Mar 31, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Can’t believe I’m saying this but I hope Tom Poti gets healthy soon…
"My Sports Blog":http://myfriendcorey.wordpress.com
I’m confused. Unless you’re a Ranger fan, why wouldn’t you want Tom Poti to get healthy as quickly as he can?
I guess he’s referencing all the Poti-hate that has been rampant around here when Poti fails on a clearing attempt or has his stick in lala-land instead of a shooting lane.
by Berube Doobie Doo on Mar 31, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the issue is that Poti has been out so long that fans have forgotten he exists, other than pondering the effects of his contract extension on other players. So it seems very odd to remember that Poti exists and could help the team. Or perhaps MyFriendCorey is not a Poti fan.
A Tom Poti who plays good, stand up hockey like he did in last year’s MTL series, will help; if he can skate and keep down the mistakes, I’d take him in a heartbeat over Slahey. My question is whether his melon is right.
"We know the answers have to come from this room," Hendricks said. "They're in here."
Basically what I’m saying is that I’d rather have Poti than Sloan while Wideman is hurt.
"My Sports Blog":http://myfriendcorey.wordpress.com
by MyFriendCorey on Mar 31, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
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