Tuesday Caps Clips
by J.P. on Sep 7, 2010 6:39 AM EDT
in Caps Clips
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PrintYour savory breakfast links:
- Mike Green: "I think this is the year." [CSN Washington]
- Speaking of Green, he and his 'mates are fantasy gold. [THN]
- Peerless is doing individual player previews, and we're giddy as a result. Karl Alzner is up first. [Peerless]
- A bit more coverage from Alex Ovechkin's charity game. [Alex Ovetjkin, Alex Ovetjkin]
- 30 Caps in 30 Days: Eric Belanger. But... nevermind... [Red Line Station]
- ... and John Carlson. [Red Line Station]
- D.J. King speaks. [CSN Washington (video)]
- Ah, the 50's (Garret Stroshein wuz robbed!). [RtR]
- Cup Crazy in late summer. [Puck 'N Hockey]
- This ought to get you in the mood. [RMNB]
- Giving GMGM his props. [KG's District]
- Back to school. Back to school, to prove to Dad that I'm not a fool. I got my lunch packed up, my boots tied tight, I hope I don't get in a fight. Oh, back to school. Back to school. Back to school. [Musings of a Hockey Mom]
- A look at Caps prospect Caleb Herbert. [Rink Rebel]
- The Caps and the Red Wings' model (no, not her). [Red Line Station]
- Previewing the Thrash. [KOL]
- Finally, happy 25th birthday to Eric Fehr and happy 32nd, we suppose, to Matt Cooke.
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Hey hey! Your ol’ pal YLM got selected to write for the new Washington Post fan blog thing.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 7:04 AM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Zowie. Japers’ Rink, represent. Congratulations! Remember, we knew you when.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Thanks! I’ll try my best not to mess it up.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 7:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Congrats, I think. Are you prepared for the comments, or will they make your posts un-commentable?
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
I have no idea. Hoping not, but they probably will be. I don’t know how Wyshynski doesn’t keep from going crazy.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 7:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I expect lots of pro-Schultz propaganda.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 7, 2010 7:32 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just call me “Pravda” :D
I wish there was a way I could call it “The Moustache Ride”
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 7:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Congratulations, YLM! Slowly but surely Japers’ Rink is taking over the blogosphere is getting better judgment and opinions related to hockey to prevail.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions
WTG YLM! Too many TLAs in that sentence…
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Sep 7, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Congrats! Can’t wait to see you in action
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
What a creepy King video.
1st, because of the dude touching himself at the beginning.
2nd, because of DJs face expression. He looked like he was in constant pain or trying not to crap in his pants. Well, his career as an enforcer left his mark on him.
Ya, the guy hasn’t played a lot of hockey in 2 years.
He needs a sunshine enema and some constructive nurturing just to get his confidence up and get him out the gates on the right foot
"Tikkanen's miss was not as dramatic as the penalty shot Joe Juneau missed in Washington's quadruple-overtime playoff loss to Pittsburgh two years [previous]." - Washington Post game recap 6/12/98
Hey all, I’m looking into a switch from DirecTV to FIOS. Any comments on Caps coverage from those with FIOS? CSN coverage comes through ok?
You had me at no problem.
Yeah, once they gave us CSN HD a couple of years ago. One of the best days of my life, that. Versus and NHL Network also come through. I’m not sure if you’ll need to pay extra for the HD channels—we used to have the Premier package (which no longer sells) and we got some HD channels, but now I think the basic plan gives you only standard definition.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Yep. Plus I think the other CSN channel is up on HD now, so you should be fine.
That said, I’m going back to DTV when my FIOS contract is up for more HD channels.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
Yeah, I think there’s not too much question that DTV has the best programming(although the Versus debacle last season was painful), but FIOS can push down my monthly bill by $80, so I see little choice.
You had me at no problem.
We had DTV, switched to Comcast cause it was cheaper.
As soon as we’re able to get FIOS, we’re going that route.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Gotcha. I dunno if the intro rates are still good, we had lucky timing and an excellent starter package offered for programming; it was hard to turn down. Now they’re dragging feet on some personally appealing HD channels (read: FSC and Gol).
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
Getting FiOS installed today. Finally ditched Comcast after years of having my hands tied with no other provider. FiOS = freedom. I’d pay double for FiOS before I’d ever go back to Comcast again. The only thing I’ve heard about FiOS is that they don’t have CSN-A in HD, so when the Caps play second fiddle, you’re stuck with SD. No idea if this is still the case, though.
"If you want money go to the bank, if you want bread go to the bakery if you want goals go to the net." - #21
The only thing I’ve heard about FiOS is that they don’t have CSN-A in HD
Not sure where you are, but out here in Loudoun County, CSN-A is now available in HD (Channel 501).
"HISTORY DOESN’T MATTER!!! .... Who cares if it’s never been done? We aren’t those teams who failed before. We are in control of our own destiny, and we will make it happen our own way.." - A Gordon, June 2010
I’m in DC, but my buddy out in Leesburg had complained at some point last year that the alternate didn’t show hockey in HD. Sounds like they fixed that, which is great.
"If you want money go to the bank, if you want bread go to the bakery if you want goals go to the net." - #21
by snakegriffin on Sep 7, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Working out is not a new activity for Green, but he has expanded his training repertoire and focused on strengthening his lower body.
I always noticed how thin Green’s legs were in 2008-2009, when he’d be getting into a position to shoot so, so often. I just hope his skating doesn’t slow some more.
I doubt that will happen. If anything, it will probably speed up. There’s strength and there’s explosiveness, and the two are not mutually exclusive.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
I really marvel at Jason Chimera since my basic intuition suggests the small guys are the fast ones and the big ones are slow. I know it’s not true, but I can’t help but initially get that feeling.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, it’s the way we’re conditioned to think. When Chimmer first got traded, the Jackets fans were all “enjoy the offsides!” What offsides? Our team can actually skate.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
by gotsparkly on Sep 7, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
It does tend to go against common sense but really, part of Chimmer’s speed comes from the fact that he’s so big – his strides are huge, if you watch him carefully he’s not moving his legs that much faster (although he is fast in general), each stride is just really long and pushes him forward further.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Rec’d the entire Clips post due to the inspired choice of lead image.
As I seem to recall, Mike showed up last year in the best shape of his life, too, after having lost an amount of weight he was too embarrassed to quantify.
We can hope, eh?
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I think the fact that he’s changed the type of training he’s doing is promising – swimming will be great for his whole body, yoga will help not only with strength and flexibility but also hopefully with internal stuff (quieting the mind is big, if I’m not mistaken), etc.
Obviously as JP has pointed out before, every athlete is in “the best shape of my life” in September, but w/ Greenie it might actually be true. Train smarter, not harder, Mike.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Last year he had the condo thing, and the website thing, and the ThugLife thing, and MTV cribs and a bobblehead and Geico and all kinds of really extraneous crap (plus Team Canada worries) going on. This year it seems that he’s scaled back on the distractions.
Last April was really really hard for him. And this year he’ll have to do it without Theo. He and Jose were pretty close, I think.
Oh well. here’s hoping for a great season, Mike Green.
PS – the back cover of NHL11 has MG52 getting wrecked by Brooks Orpik. Thanks EA Sports!
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
It’s possible that he has, yeah. But honestly I’m not so worried about the number of outside-of-hockey distractions as I am with the extent to how much he listens to the media – that, to me, was the bigger problem, because all those things were happening in the midst of a really good regular season.
Plus everyone has distractions – just think of the guys with kids trying to juggle being an athlete who is on the road a lot with being a father.
Did that MTV Cribs ever air, btw?
I think Theo was pretty close with a lot of guys, actually. He seemed to kind of slide into the little clique that was Green, Laich, Backstrom and sometimes the Russians. Mike’ll be fine, though, he’s a big boy ;)
Effing Brooks Orpik. That is all.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
PS – the back cover of NHL11 has MG52 getting wrecked by Brooks Orpik. Thanks EA Sports!
If the shot were expanded you would see that Orpik is way out of position to make a hit on a defenseman and Ovechkin is busy beating Fleury like a rented mule.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 7, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
Ovechkin is busy beating Fleury like a rented mule.
well deserving of a rec.
can anyone post a photo of this?
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
So Mirtle is 100% certain Belanger will be signed by the Caps. He’s usually pretty reliable so I guess I’ll take him at his word, but I have to wonder why the super sleuth approach. Did Bettman put him on double-secret probation and George has to wait until he’s free?
I’ve been lurking the Quebecois press, but Belanger’s agent has decided to keep his yap shut.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Nah, I think they’re still trying to move Flash before announcing the Belly signing.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Any minute now………
Still waiting.
Still waiting.
:)
"Because the game is not just about fighting no more. " D.J. King
Almost there. Almost there…Stay on target. Stay on target.
Country Gentlemen's Pig Fertilizer Gazette
Dunny-on-the-World
by Boggles on Sep 7, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Think of it this way: Why wouldn’t the Caps and/or Belanger’s agent simply refute the report?
There’s no reason they wouldn’t if it was false.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
by James Mirtle on Sep 7, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
in the 2003-2004 season McPhee and owner Ted Leonsis decided to do something bold: a fire sale.
I feel proud that our GM and owner were the first to institute a “rebuild” in the modern era. Pittsburgh may have gotten there first, but they were just plain bad. The Caps intended to be.
Pittsburgh was bad because of finances though.
I’ll give McPhee and Washington credit because they sold their assets for picks/players that became valuable pieces for when it was time to compete, whereas the Pens really didn’t or couldn’t do that.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Both teams did what you really need to do – commit to the rebuild.
Basically, I see only three states that worth being in for an NHL team: legitimate Cup contender, rebuild, and in between/on the way up (think Caps in 07-08). When teams really get in trouble is when they can’t accept they’re no longer contenders but aren’t willing to rebuild and spend money and/or picks and young players to try and bolster their team only to be mediocre.
So which teams would that describe? Calgary comes to mind quickly.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Leafs have had that problem for a long, long time.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Valid point, but I think some markets have too many pressures, which Toronto would certainly be one of them.
Pens/Caps/Blackhawks were all really, really dreadful from like 2003-07 (or there-abouts). There was the unique lockout situation, but I still don’t think a team as bad as the 03/04 Pens or the 05/06 Caps would be tolerated up there.
So instead they “re-tool” with giving guys like Armstrong way more money than they’re worth and still end up no better. DMG’s point about committing is important, and while it’s probably not a good idea, some markets just don’t make that very possible.
To truly rebuild you need to hit rock-bottom and get a couple of top 5 picks, rather than deal them away for the Phil Kessel’s of the world.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
They’ll never have a problem with attendance. People will show up there even when the team is terrible.
The fans there are smart. I think they’d prefer a total rebuild rather than a half-assed patch job.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Calgary and Toronto are good examples, and I think Montreal’s another – they probably would have been better off starting from the ground up rather than going on a splurge last offseason. Gomez, Cammalleri, and Gionta are all good players, but I don’t see that core as one that can win the Cup. Florida was also there for a while, although they didn’t have the means/interest to make too many big moves and also didn’t do a great job picking up franchise cornerstones when they had the chance.
Anaheim and Dallas are also teams that look to me like the might be in danger of going the "perpetual mediocrity" route, although they’re also teams that could end up being very strong with the right additions, which is part of the problem. As a GM you see that and think “we’re almost there!” but then you either can’t find the players you need, or you overpay for them, or some other guys drop off, and you never get over the hump.
I find it beyond shocking that Florida has a 51 million dollar payroll.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s because Florida’s a dictionary example of a rebuild gone wrong. A complete teardown rebuild is still a major risk, not just because of the hit in attendance for a few years. You make some mistakes with your top 10 picks, some ill-advised moves, and you’re worse off than you where before and you still have that hit to the attendance, plus a hefty payroll you can’t unload.
Thus, it’s not surprising to me that some teams are perfectly happy with perpetual mediocrity so long as the gate still delivers.
It’s odd because they still have a lot of really young guys, like Olesz, Matthias, Frolik and Grabner. Hell, they’ve got two guys on Entry deals on their backline, Kulikov and Ellerby.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Olesz got his first post-entry level contract in 2008, and he’s a $3.125 cap hit until 2014. All the other guys you mentioned are still on their entry levels (and most will be due new contracts next off-season).
Their cap hit comes from picking up two faltering and overpaid blueliners in McCabe and Wideman (nearly a $10 million combined hit), Voukon’s $5.7 million hit, and $3-million-plus on Booth, Stillman, Weiss, and the aforementioned Olesz.
Florida’s problem is that their big franchise player (Bouwmeester) didn’t live up to that label, they never really found a star player to build around like the Caps and Pens did despite their amount of top 10 picks, and the talent they did draft wasn’t good enough to collectively step up and fill the gap like the players the Kings drafted. Weiss is a nice second line center, but he was the Panthers’ 4th overall pick in 2001. Taticek was the 9th overall pick in after Bouwmeester in 2002, and he’s played only 3 games in the NHL before going back to Europe. Horton is generally regarded as a disappointment as an overall No. 3 pick in a strong 2003 draft. From 2001 through 2004, the Panthers had 5 top 10 picks and 2 other first rounders, and from those picks, they selected Bouwmeester, Horton, Olesz, Taticek, Weiss, Anthony Stewart, and Lukas Krajicek. There are some good players there, but nobody who really could be called even a second tier star.
They seem to have done better since then, picking up Frolik, Ellerby, and Markstrom since the lockout with two No. 10 overall picks and a second rounder, but not after they attempted to build with less-than-elite material, which led them to (a) lose in gambling on overpaying their young talent in the hopes they got better and (b) bring in more veterans to fill the performance gaps as Florida tried to make the playoffs.
Still, they’re not in as bad as shape as they could be. Just ask Edmonton.
by Forsch31 on Sep 7, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’d give Anaheim a pass for now since they won the Cup a few years ago, have a relatively young core of some players (Ryan, Getzlaf, Perry, etc) and have some veterans hanging on for the ‘one more run’ mentality (Selanne, Koivu and formerly Niedermayer).
I do think they risk slipping into that zone — Dallas probably a classic example through the decades of the 2000’s — if things continue though.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Dallas gets a pass from me for past behavior because they’ve been in ownership hell. the real question is what do they do now?
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 7, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Calgary, Minnesota, Anaheim, Toronto, NY Islanders, Atlanta, Dallas (although they may be able to sneak out of it…)…
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Sep 7, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
The Islanders are the worst of all those, because at least the other teams had glimmers of success in the past 15 years. The Islanders have had 4 first-round playoff losses and nothing else good (unless you count those great Yashin and DiPietro contracts).
The Isles also had the worst GM in my lifetime. It looks like they may be breaking out of it now but they are still paying for Milbury’s mistakes.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
The Isle have been in perpetual suck mode, which provides a handy character foil to the perpetual mediocrity show going on in Gotham.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
The Isles have a gaggle of young talent, have been playing smart and hard for a few years now, and certainly have been a handful for the Caps. Get your laughs out now because I think that team is getting ready to turn a corner. It’s just a question of which city gets to root for them when they finally bloom.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Garth Snow is actually a pretty decent GM by most accounts. His hands have been tied somewhat by ownership, though, and the lack of a good arena / lack of certainty surrounding the franchise.
5 more years until Yashin is off the books isn’t helping either.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
Yashin’s buyout is actually pretty beneficial right now in helping them get to the cap floor.
Remember the days when the only thing keeping the Caps above the floor was the hit Jagr’s deal?
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
They made that trade before the lockout. Wouldn’t that have been excluded from a cap hit?
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
I thought they carried it over? I could be wrong?
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
IIRC the Caps’ share counted against the actual payroll, but not the cap. There was something odd about it.
"Yes, but Rimmer Directive 271 states just as clearly, 'No chance you metal ba****d.'"
I remember once Jagr ran out they were able to sign Nyls, Kozlov, and Poti, so I think it was cap hit too.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
actual knowledge: Post.
Because of the conditions of the trade that sent Jagr from Washington to the New York Rangers in January 2004, the Capitals still must pay a large portion of Jagr’s contract at least through the end of this season. While the financial details that facilitated Jagr’s exit from Washington won’t be on the forefront of players’ minds tonight at Madison Square Garden, the irony is impossible to escape when the Capitals (3-0-0) and the Rangers (1-2-0) face each other.
“Do I like paying a player who doesn’t play for us? No,” Capitals majority owner Ted Leonsis said through a team spokesman. “But I agreed to the terms of the deal when we made the transaction. In hindsight, we would make the same deal again. I am very satisfied with how we have built and developed our team.”
Although the $3.46 million payment to Jagr doesn’t count against the Capitals’ salary cap, it does impact the team’s budget. Leonsis expects to spend $42 million on player salaries this season, yet more than 8 percent of that goes to Jagr.
Because of the arrangement, the Rangers pay only $4.9 million of Jagr’s $8.36 million salary, and only that amount counts against the salary cap, not his full cost. That gave General Manager Glen Sather additional room under the $50.3 million cap when he added free agent centers Chris Drury and Scott Gomez this summer.
"Yes, but Rimmer Directive 271 states just as clearly, 'No chance you metal ba****d.'"
by apk3000 on Sep 7, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know about “gaggle”. Tavares, Okposo, and Neiderreiter (sp?) are good, but they’re still pretty thin.
And their defense is sucktastic.
Streit, Hamonic, De Haan is a nice start. You’re also ignoring the second tier guys like Bailey.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Gervais and Hillen aren’t bad either.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Streit’s almost 33. (I couldn’t believe he’s that old.)
The other guys are nice fillers, but for them to be dangerous, they need more top guys in their system.
How many more? How many top guys can any team actually keep? Considering these guys aren’t even close to maturity they’ll probably add a couple guys via draft in the next couple years. A lot will depend on how the mid-tier prospects turn out (and whether Kabanov is a home run or a bust), but their prospect pool is deeper with top end talent than a lot of other teams’.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
A team needs at least 3 All-Stars to be ready for a Cup run, I think. And if the Islanders are getting better (which they are), those picks are less likely to be sure things.
Who are the 3 All Stars on that team in 3 years (when they might be ready)?
Okposo, Tavares, Bailey. Maybe Matt Moulson?
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Moulson’s season was Chris Kontos-like. (Remember the first half of his season with the expansion Lightning?)
I think Tavares is the real deal, but I’m not sold yet on Okposo as taking it to the next level. He’s got so much promise, but I’m not sure if he can be a 40 or 45 goal scorer.
I think Okposo has a better chance at being an all-around player than Tavares. Tavares is going to be a PP specialist because his skating is going to hold him back at ES. Okposo is much more versatile.
I’m also not sold on Moulson at all.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
....
?
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep. The curse of “perpetual mediocrity”. Not bad enough to get high draft picks, not good enough to cosistently make the playoffs/win the Cup
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Neither team took shortcuts. Either could have traded a high-end prospect (say, a Jordan Staal or a Semyon Varlamov) to hotwire their return to competitiveness. But they didn’t. Both recognized the importance of a core group. The difference is that Pittsburgh has, to date, done a better job of adding the pieces around that core. Adding a Chris Kunitz and a Bill Guerin; having added a Hal Gill the year before to provide more experience on the blue line. The sort of “undercard” moves that are important to a championship team. Both teams have done it right, but Pittsburgh has done it just a little better so far.
If you've read this far...seek help.
I’ll give McPhee and Washington credit because they sold their assets for picks/players that became valuable pieces for when it was time to compete, whereas the Pens really didn’t or couldn’t do that.
Yeah, the Penguins and Caps have done a good job in their rebuilds, but let’s be perfectly honest, both got incredibly lucky in winning the lotteries for Crosby and Ovechkin. If neither gets the #1 choice we could be looking at vastly different scenarios for the futures of both franchises.
I will yesbut your yesbut. Both teams won lotteries for dream players – and then carefully constructed teams around them to leverage their great gifts. Not every team has gotten the generational player that the caps and Pens did, but many of them have a player they could build a great franchise around but haven’t. Think of Rick Nash banging away in Columbus, f’r example.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Atlanta for all those years with Kovy…
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
Try this on. The Caps don’t win the 2004 lottery. The Penguins, holding to standings form, win that lottery and take Ovechkin. The Blackhawks take Malkin. Washington takes Cam Barker. That being the case, the Caps get that ping pong ball back (the top overall draft pick) in the 2005 lottery drawing that they lost by winning in the 2004 lottery. But they still don’t win, because in making the 2003 playoffs, they still lose a ping pong ball. They don’t get Crosby, they don’t get Ovechkin. It would have been a lot different for one team, that’s for sure. But even with that, the Penguins not only have only one productive winger, they have no centers (although they might still have ended up with Jordan Staal or Jonathan Toews in 2006).
There are a lot of ways to spin this out. It took us four parts to do it.
If you've read this far...seek help.
That was a great writeup. Would have been a crazy alternate universe if Ovechkin was a Penguin and Crosby was, say, a Ranger. Couldn’t even imagine the person I’d be today if it had come to pass that way.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
It certainly would have been a crazy alternate universe with Ovi as a Pen and Crosby as a Ranger. I’ll admit I’m a die hard Penguin hater but I think the Rangers would be a more hated team with Crosby than the Penguins currently are.
The hype in NY would be incredible. (Okay, I’ll admit to anti-NY bias as well)
Somehow I can’t imagine Ovi in a Pens uniform.
Rocking the Red since 1975
Vikings!
KCI is full of Swedes this morning. :)
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Who’s there?
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Backs, Mackan, and AnGus. Take that, Team Russia!
Ersky and Brads are also there. It’s beginning to smell a lot like hockey.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Are Agnetha, Bjorn, Benny and Anna-Frida there?
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Sep 7, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m not witty enough to come with good snark for why, but I’m rec’ing that.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
Does your mother know?
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Sep 7, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, I guess the winner takes it all.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
Aaand, this is definitely OT. Before a mod says so.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
It’s beginning to smell a lot like hockey.
This makes me happy.
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
by SeattleCapsFan on Sep 7, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Guess the snack bar at Kettler better stock up on Spam then….
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Sep 7, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Cooke’s Birthday Dream: He gets a cake and a lady pops out of it.
Cooke’s Birthday Nightmare: He gets a cake and Evander Kane pops out of it.
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Sep 7, 2010 10:28 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
KG on McPhee
in the 2003-2004 season McPhee and owner Ted Leonsis decided to do something bold: a fire sale. Generally, this wouldn’t be a bold move. However, the Capitals made the playoffs in 2003, and they weren’t in the basement of the standings when they shipped off the likes of Jaromir Jagr, Sergei Gonchar, and Peter Bondra in exchange for young talent and draft picks
Going solely from memory here, but wasn’t that Caps team underachieving on a massive scale? When they started the fire sale, I recollect that the team was all but out of the playoff hunt, and it was obvious on its face that the team as then constructed could not compete?
Not so sure the fire sale was the bold move to throw away mediocrity and embrace putridity that the article portrays.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
The Caps are on the verge of a Cup (and unless something drastically changes, they will be for seasons to come) because of George McPhee
Disagree with this conclusion as well. I don’t see a roster that can currently compete for a Cup. There’s time to change it, but it’s not a winner right now.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I have to agree. But it’s high time that the prospects get some daylight to show us exactly what we need and the fall is the time to demonstrate to the whole league what we’re packing…March is McPhee’s time (assuming this Belanger mystery actually concludes) and he may have to deviate from getting a great deal in trade and get the right deal, even if he overpays a bit.
back to cool special
really? a team that won the presidents trophy in the previous year with no major losses cant be considered a cup contender/on the verge? i agree that the team as construted would most likely need a few upgrades at key positions to solidify it’s prospects in the playoffs, but even as contructed they are certainly on the short list of teams that can/should win the cup.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Sep 7, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
No way. The PK has to improve, or it will torpedo any chance at a long playoff run, and I see no evidence that would suggest that it will. The depth at C is another cardinal sin. And any team giving Erskine or Sloan a nightly sweater won’t cut it.
They’ll score their points, and they’ll make the playoffs, but I don’t see a legit contender right now.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
With the caveat that I don’t know the West nearly as well as the East, I’d go with these early favorites:
Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Vancouver and LA.
There’s a lot of acreage yet to plow, and injuries will have a lot to say. There are some teams that will alter their roster prior to camp, and the deadline will change things up as well. And then there’s the wild card teams that get smoking hot at the right time (and go ice cold at the wrong time).
All to say that it would not surprise me a bit to see a team other than those four win it all, but I see the Caps needing more than the usual share of luck if they’re to go all the way.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
2 of those 4 teams are over the cap. They aren’t even allowed to play.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
by Rob Parker on Sep 7, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Philly’s gonna need a hell of a lot of luck to repeat what they did last season. They were astoundingly luck to get hot when they did and lucked into some favorable playoff match-ups.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
See, I see them as a team that finally played to their potential. I had them labeled as a contender coming into last season. Their G was obviously their weak link, and their top D finally ran out of steam by the time the Finals rolled around. But they did (and do) have a ton of skill and depth up front and a really solid blue line.
The G situation is still shaky, but the rest of that roster is as good or better than anyone’s. They’ve addressed the bottom-pair on their D…
I think they look good.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I’m with fd here. I had them up with Pens & Caps prior to last season. Took a new coach to get the talent producing, but when he got them going they were hard to handle even with their goalie issues. They have skill and a deep blueline. They will be good.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
but that talent still didn’t really produce, not until the playoffs. Peerless pointed it out last week (I wish I remembered what day that was). The winning percentage of the Flyers before and after Lavy arrived were virtually identical. If I see them actually produce for a sustained period of time this season, maybe I’ll start believing. But right now, I don’t see them in the mix as an elite East team.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
Yeah, it was something like 3 wins in the first 11, then a winning streak, then 4 wins in the last 11.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
The most telling thing for me was seeing how horribly outclassed they were against the Hawks – at least when Chicago decided to actually play. It was stunning how far apart they were in terms of talent and flow.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I actually don’t think Chicago ever decided to “actually play.” I thought they were pretty un-Chicago like all series, save maybe one game in the middle. Philadelphia just got off their hot streak.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
eh, Chicago just sucked less than Philly that week. Completely uninspired Finals.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
True. But there were maybe two games – and parts of others – where the Hawks turned it on and the Flyers, while trying to keep up, just couldn’t match them. Those were the moments that pissed me off the most because it was so clear that they didn’t belong there. Not that the Caps would have necessarily won, but I’d like to think they could hold their own against Chicago.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
But there were also moments when PHI looked like the better team. There will always be momentum shifts and I think that you’re focusing too much on when CHI had the momentum as a way to dismiss PHI. Obviously CHI was the better team, but I didn’t watch that series and think PHI didn’t belong there, or that we’d do any better against CHI.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I think that you’re focusing too much on when CHI had the momentum as a way to dismiss PHI
I don’t think I am, to be honest. I tried to watch it with as balanced an eye as I could – yes, there are momentum shifts, but when Philly took control it didn’t seem like they were that much better so much as it seemed like Chicago just wasn’t trying. When the Hawks took over Philly looked lost, Richards seemed ineffective, Pronger looked slow, etc.
Like I said, I’m not saying the Caps would have beaten them but we know what that team was capable of and the Hawks weren’t this amazing, insane machine that no one could beat.
I’m really not as much of a homer as some people want to believe, I do like watching good hockey – and that wasn’t it, mostly because these were two teams on different planes. I hate the Pens way more than the Flyers and I never thought Pittsburgh was outclassed against the Wings.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I thought the hockey was bad, but not because the teams were on different planes. If the teams were as far apart as you characterize them, then how did the series go 6, almost 7?
when Philly took control it didn’t seem like they were that much better so much as it seemed like Chicago just wasn’t trying.
I find it extremely hard to believe that CHI “just wasn’t trying” for periods of play in the SCF. PHI had a pretty loaded roster outside the crease. When PHI had control you don’t think Toews and Kane looked ineffective, and Keith/Seabrook looked scrambly?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Were the Caps and Habs on the same plane? How did that series go 7?
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Because the Caps weren’t as good as people thought they were. Because the Habs were better than people thought they were. Because the Caps didn’t make adjustments. Because the Caps had epically bad luck. Lots of reasons.
But if the Caps had won in 7, you’d at least have to have given MON credit. I just don’t see how you look at a close, long series, and conclude that one of the teams didn’t even belong there. Especially when that team has already won 3 playoff series.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Because the Caps didn’t make adjustments.
Yeah, and that goes into not showing up – not how good they were. They might not have been a potential Cup-winner but the Caps were certainly good enough to beat an 8 seed that snuck into the playoffs. And the Habs weren’t better than people thought they were – they had a game plan that worked against teams like the Caps and Pens, they had a goalie who got hot at the right time, and they had good luck. I’d question the sanity of anyone who put them on the same plane as either team, though – ask Habs fans who watched them for 82 games.
And of course I’d give Montreal credit – even though I liked them I could easily admit that they sucked in general, but I still gave them credit for doing what they did. But you can’t tell me Chicago was playing at the level they could play for most of that series, there’s no way. I saw them play better – and against better teams – earlier in the playoffs.
You also can’t tell me that the Bruins, Devils and Habs were exactly tough competition. We weren’t able to beat the Habs, doesn’t make them better than us – just more successful. There’s a difference.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. I’m not sure how the Habs/Caps series is instructive of the CHI/PHI series. You want to credit PHI being close with CHI just not playing hard, which makes no sense. So CHI goes through three rounds, is on the verge of a championship, and stops trying? PHI was a good team, and they gave CHI a battle. It had nothing to do with CHI not trying or not having a good coaching staff.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
So after seeing the Caps choke so badly because they went in against a weaker opponent with the mindset that it would be an easy win, you’re not willing to grant that Chicago saw who they drew – out of all the teams in the admittedly weak East – and didn’t think “hell yeah, we’ve got this one in the bag”?
They looked awful for most of that series. When they turned it on, it was noticeable. When Philly turned it on, it was less so.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
you’re not willing to grant that Chicago saw who they drew – out of all the teams in the admittedly weak East – and didn’t think "hell yeah, we’ve got this one in the bag"?
Subconsciously there might have been a little, but I don’t think it affected things as much as you suggest…Especially considering that Chicago started off the series by winning two one-goal games.
If there was as much lack of preparation or disrespect for an opponent, doubt that happens.
To think a NHL team would consciously let off the gas in the Stanley Cup finals is pretty far out there. You don’t make it to that level by not having a killer instinct.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
I think there was an element of that; Chris Pronger had the game of his life (and that’s one hell of a game) during game one and the rest of the Flyers couldn’t capitalize. I could buy some of “that was their best shot and they still lost!” creeping into the locker room.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t mean they necessarily meant to keep their foot off the gas the whole time…but one of the wiser (and more ironic) things Boudreau has ever said is that hockey’s not a faucet – you can’t turn it on and off. It’s hard to say that any team means to underachieve in the playoffs but once you start out that way…tough to go back. They eventually figured it out and that’s when Philly looked absolutely helpless.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
“It comes down to breaking your opponent’s will, and outworking them mentally before they do the same to you. You have to make them believe they can’t beat you, and then their bodies will just come along for the ride. You have to make them want to quit. Make them see summer right around the corner. At that point, a team can be broken even though there is still hockey to be played.”
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Even I’d tell you the Red Wings dominated entire periods and even games of each series where Pittsburgh had to hold on by their finger nails as to not be entirely blown out.
Philly did impress me last ECF, and I think they even caught CHI by surprise there with how much fight they had in them. I watched most Chicago’s playoff games and I would say that Philadelphia definitely was their stiffest test.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
They dominated at times but it wasn’t to the point of the Pens looking completely outclassed. They weren’t always the better team but neither was Detroit, both those series (08 and 09) had some really good hockey in them.
Philly didn’t impress me in the ECF at all. They did what neither the Caps nor Pens could do, that’s all – beat Montreal at their own game.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I agree with your last paragraph, Washington or Pittsburgh could have done at least as well, most likely. But sadly for us, that’s not how it works.
Of the four games the Flyers lost, three were by 1 goal. They weren’t blown out or anything. It was tight, close hockey and while the better team one, it wasn’t without a fight or drama, at least from my perspective. I expected Chicago to have a much easier series than the one they actually got.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
I think it’s all relative. On the whole, NHL teams are pretty close, and I thought it was pretty clear Chicago was a step up on Philly. It was by no means two evenly matched teams, which Detroit-Pittsburgh looked like for long stretches both years (aside from the first two games of 2008 and Game 5 of 2009).
I thought both teams were playing pretty badly, especially their defenses. Both of course ramped it up at times, but when Chicago ramped it up it was like Washington ramping it up, except Chicago was scoring at the same time. Philadelphia didn’t look like it had that same margin of out-class in it.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know how anyone could have watched the playoffs and not thought the Flyers were a good team. Hawks looked bad at times because the Flyers made them look bad and vice versa.
The Hawks were the most complete team in the NHL all last season and postseason. They were pretty damn amazing in my book.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
Philly got into a 3-0 hole against a pretty sad-sack team in Boston – something that’s forgotten in all the “they erased a 3-0 deficit OMG!” talk. They had to get there in the first place to erase it, after playing a Devils team that wasn’t exactly stellar. Did you see any of that first round? NJ was horrible, barely showed up.
And yes, the Hawks were good. There were other teams I thought were almost as good if not just as good. And thankfully it was a situation where the best team (or one of them) actually won.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Nobody is going to steamroll the entire year. The question people should focus on is “if this team gets hot for two months can they win the Cup?” That’s what it will come down to, and based on what I’ve seen I’d say both the Caps and the Flyers are contenders (along with several others). Luck has a lot more to do with playoff success than anyone wants to acknowledge, and with a little bit of luck a whole bunch of teams could win it.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
by Rob Parker on Sep 7, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I guess I (and probably some others) need to be a little better about identifying what we’re talking about. During the regular season, I don’t see Philly battling to be the best team in the East. All bets are off in the playoffs because is just such a fucking crapshot.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
Fair enough, though I think PHI could win the east (we won the east with a heavy heaping of luck last year, they could do so this year). I also think winning the regular season means dick so focusing on defining “contender” by the likelihood a team wins the regular season is pretty foolish.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I agree — it’s far more important to finish the season really strong in March/April then it is to end up 1st or 2nd in the standings. It’s a big reason why #1 vs. #2 in the conference finals almost never happens in the NHL.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
it’s far more important to finish the season really strong in March/April
I don’t think even this is important — or the 07-08 Caps would have been unstoppable. I think the entire regular season — beginning, middle and end — means dick.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 7, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Then again, you have to be a somewhat good team to finish first, right?
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
wow, so you think the caps PK issues and 2C issues take them out of the running, but philly and it’s current goaltending and cap issues puts them in? still disagree but we’ll see next april/may/june.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Sep 7, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
The Caps were the best regular season team in the NHL last year with a slightly less talented roster overall than what they’ll have going into this season – doesn’t mean they’re a lock or that they don’t have holes, but they should absolutely be considered contenders.
Every team has holes – the Caps need to fill at least some of them, sure, but there is no perfect team and being a very good team overall can overcome some holes. The Pens won despite never having a decent winger for Sid, using less-than-stellar D and getting inconsistent goaltending from Fleury. The Wings won despite similar issues on D (beyond their top 4) and even worse goaltending. Etc, etc.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Consider the PK. It’s current production means that the Caps spot the opposition around a goal per game. That’s a mighty big hurdle to overcome. It basically means that the Caps have to score at a really hot rate for about 6 weeks in order to keep winning. It’s a lot to ask.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Assuming around 78% kill rate and 4 – 5 minors to kill a night.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Discipline in taking penalties is definitely an issue.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, but that’s not a full goal per game more than other teams are giving up. Even a team with a 90% PK (which is extremely high – STL lead the league at 86.8%) is giving up an extra half a goal a game at that rate. So even if the Caps don’t improve the PK their PK is at most giving up a half a goal a game more than the very best PKs in the league. Throw in the balancing from the PP and do you really think that’s a huge deal breaker?
Sure, a shit PK can come back to kill you in a single playoff series (like a slumping PP), but that is very heavily influenced by the luck factor in the playoffs. PK can be a weakness, but I have a hard time saying that a bad PK takes a team out of contender status, especially when they are as good at even strength as the Caps have been.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 7, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
But that isn’t related to the personnel issues you cited. A 2C or 4D isn’t going to fix the PK. So are you saying the Caps can’t be a contender as long as BB keeps this same PK strategy?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
For the record, I cited more than personnel issues.
And, yes, I’m saying exactly what you said.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Yeah, you cited PK in the first comment. I half-overlooked it and half-thought you were making a personnel-based PK critique.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I started to go into the personnel issues, but I it got too vague, so I settled for the PK line of analysis, which is easier to reduce to numbers.
I still think the depth at C and at D, as currently reflected in the roster, is a real stumbling block, but I can’t think of any way to flesh it out that doesn’t devolve into “that’s what I think”.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Of course those are question marks, I’m just saying that it’s way too soon to even talk about contenders. If Alzner and Carlson both take big steps forward then our D is solved. If either MP/Flash/Mackan turn out to be ready for NHL 2C duty, or we pick up Brad Richards at the deadline, then the whole discussion changes. Obviously it’s highly unlikely that all of those things break our way, but it’s equally unlikely that none of them break our way. Who knows what will happen? Put the carpentry set away, we don’t even have a coffin yet, much less a final nail to put in it.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
(And I have bought into your conclusion that the problems in the PK are more systemic than personnel based – but playing Steckel, Poti and Erskine on the PK does contribute on the personnel side, imo)
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Their PP scores at the same rate. So it comes down to evens, where the Caps were the best team by a mile last year.
I’m not discounting the issues you’re citing, just their importance in being a “contender.”
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
The team scored at the same rate at evens last year…helped along by a healthy dose of good fortune. I’d expect the even strength production rates to settle back much closer to even this year.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
They have a long way to fall, on the other hand, before they get to, even, 2nd. I remember iwearstripes showed us that the Caps’ offense was one of the best compared to the other teams in league history or something. Obviously a lot of that is luck, but I find it hard to believe that enough was to drop them much at all. They didn’t get too much luck at evens as far as I can remember in 2008-2009 and had the #3 offense and 8th best F/G 5-on-5 ratio. Assuming some sort of improvement then I don’t think a 1st place finish is that unreasonable.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup, let’s just throw the towel in on this season and look to 2011-2012. We have absolutely no hope at all. See you next October.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Sorry for the self-reply.
I should clarify that. We have a lot of unknowns and a lot of less than ideal pieces. This much is true. But, like true Caps fans, this entire thread assumes that every single unknown will turn out negatively.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Guys at the same level as Erskine, at least, will get a nightly sweater on teams you label as contenders below.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
…er, above, as it were. Your list of Pitt, Philly, Van and LA.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I don’t buy O’Donnell as being all that much of an upgrade over Erskine, sorry. Big and slow and old.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
And maybe not on Vancouver, but they also don’t have the same elite offensive talent and depth the Caps have. There is no perfect team, everyone has holes.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Vancouver’s pretty close. Very well rounded in every sense.
But even if every team has holes, the Capitals have major, glaring issues. They don’t have a second line center, and the third line center position has question marks, too. Erskine/Sloan every night simply isn’t good enough, and that’s not to even mention what happens if there’s an injury on the back end.
See, I’m not convinced they’re glaring. They’re needs, sure, but that didn’t seem to be the issue in the playoffs.
If I see the whole team playing the way they can play and doing so in the postseason, then maybe I (or anyone else) could offer up a valid assessment of how glaring they are. We haven’t seen that yet. I find it laughable for us to try and take this team out of “contender” status based on what we’ve seen. Considering they were the best team in the regular season last year, I’d say they deserve to be viewed as a contender until (unless) they prove otherwise.
Also, we keep saying that going into the playoffs w/ Erskine/Sloan at 6 and 7 is bad – and I’m not necessarily disagreeing because I’d love an upgrade – but we’re glossing over the fact that our #5 guy would be in any other team’s top 4.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
And theoretically—hopefully—5 is all the D the Caps need, maybe. Right?
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
We didn’t get to see the Capitals a ton in last year’s playoffs, but I don’t think I needed to see that to know Erskine/Sloan getting a sweater every night is a problem or that the Caps’ options at 2C and 3C are either mediocre or unproven. I’m not taking the out of “contender” status, not by a longshot, but the roster as it is now is one I’d be surprised to see win the Cup.
our #5 guy would be in any other team’s top 4.
No, he wouldn’t. Right now, I don’t think Alzner cracks the top four in any of the teams fat_daddyo listed (Philly, LA, Vancouver, Pittsburgh).
the roster as it is now is one I’d be surprised to see win the Cup
Right…and I could say the same for any other team considered a “contender”. That’s my point. This was a damn good team last year, they’ve gotten better and still have time to address the holes we all see. The fact that GMGM has kicked the tires on guys like Sharp and Mitchell tells me he knows what their needs are – doesn’t mean the team as it stands should be seen as anywhere beneath teams with equally glaring holes like the teams that have been tossed around.
And re: Alzner…maybe, maybe not. I was thinking more along the lines of Schultz/Poti than Alzner, to be honest (and we don’t know who #5 is, btw). Either way, he may not crack the top 4 but he’s not a definitive bottom-pair guy, either. I think the way he’s played in admittedly limited time w/ the Caps is a good sign that he’s at least top-4 material, if not right away then definitely by the end of the season.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I’m interested – this is the second time you’ve noted that this year’s Caps are better than last year’s Caps. What are you basing that on? Calznerson over ShaMo and Juice? Flash and Belanger (reportedly) over BMo and Stecks?
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Alzner and Carlson being in the lineup is a huge boost, if you ask me. They don’t have to be world-beaters but they’re steady and very promising players – it’s all a guess, obviously, but I think our D overall is better than it was last year.
Plus there’s just the general fact that losing like they did tends to make teams stronger. I stick to my theory that losing to the Pens last year wasn’t as effective a building tool b/c they could say “hey, we lost to the eventual Cup champs who weren’t really a #5 seed” – not the same as losing to a barely-8th seed after being up 3-1.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Being blown out on home ice by your bitter rivals is a punch in the gut regardless. Sure, they can say “we lost to the SCF champs” but then they can also say “if we didn’t suck eggs on home ice we could have been the SCF champs.”
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
There’s a difference between saying “we got beat by the eventual champs” and “we didn’t play well enough to beat a team that didn’t get to the Finals”.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
The Caps have had enough should-be wake up calls in the playoffs, that I won’t believe the MTL series is one until I see it.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 7, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, same. But of all of them, this is the one that would be most likely to serve that purpose. Look back at Cup history and you’ll see a ton of teams that had very little playoff success for a few years but it was frequently that loss in the first round to an 8th seed that pushed them over.
obviously I’m not psychic, it may have no impact whatsoever. But you learn lessons from history, and this was a HUGE lesson.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
What were the two years prior?
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
…the very little playoff success for a few years that I already mentioned? They barely made the playoffs in 07-08, losing that round was painful but not unexpected. They underachieved in 08-09 but still made it to the second round and were able to walk around saying “we lost to the Champs”. This was the ass-kick year.
Oilers
79-80: lost in first round
80-81: lost in second round
81-82: lost in first round
82-83: Cup
Red Wings
98-99: lost in second round
99-00: lost in second round
00-01: lost in first round
01-02: Cup
There are others but I don’t feel like looking it up…I’m just saying, it happens. Sometimes the third time’s the charm, especially when it’s the biggest collapse.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
by Becca H on Sep 7, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Love that EDM comparison.
"Hockey is my life, wine is my passion." -- Igor Larionov
by Scott in Shaw on Sep 7, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s kind of an eerie comparison, down to the standings. Edmonton was 4th in 79-80 but jumped to 1st in both their division and their conference in 81-82 before losing to the Kings 3-2 in the first round – oh yeah, and the Kings finished with almost 50 points behind Edmonton in the regular season.
God, I hope the comparison continues to be eerily close…
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
The Caps/Oilers comparison really isn’t as close as many people think when they realize that Gretzky and Messier were 23 when they won their first Cup and Kurri, Coffey, and Anderson were 22.
That’s a once-in-a-lifetime team.
Well…there’s no PERFECT comparison but age doesn’t matter in this case. There was no lockout, there were fewer teams, the disparity between good teams and bad teams were greater…easier (and I use that team very loosely, before you all jump on me) to win a Cup at a younger age.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Last spring in an NHL live segment that had Gretzky talking about the Caps, he discussed how our team needed to figure out how to win. He then compared Ovi and the Caps to his and his team’s own experience with losing, that they had to lose—painfully—before they could figure out how to win. And in his view that was exactly what the Caps needed to do—learn from their losses. He thought the skill was there to win the Cup. It wasn’t about age. It wasn’t about the roster holes. It was about the intangibles and experiences and the process of learning.
"I’m very happy to hear the news," Ovechkin said when he heard about Backstrom's longterm contract--"because he’s one of the top centers in the world, one of my best friends and we want to play together for a long time. He’s a guy who wants to stay in one place and be comfortable and win, just like me. We talk all the time about playing together, and we talked after the playoffs about how we can win in Washington."
by capsyoungguns on Sep 7, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh… that Red Wings team won the Cup in 97 and 98. Not exactly an up and coming team the had to learn to win.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
*
Should have gone with the Isles dynasty.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I didn’t look up every team ever, I just know it’s happened a lot. Islanders would sort of work but they didn’t have quite the same path as the other teams – they made it to the second round before going on their run, that’s a bit different.
And the Red Wings comparison isn’t perfect but it still applies – people thought they’d be dominant for many years after winning those 2 Cups and they kept crapping out. You’ll always have guys on a team that need to learn how to win.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Standing by the Red Wings comparison? Interesting. I would have gone with the Yzerman/Fedorov Wings of the early ’90s.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Geez. Fine. Although I will say, while that one sort of works, they weren’t as dominant going into those losses and didn’t have the same pattern. (And didn’t win the Cup after the 3rd try, which is what I’m hoping will happen.)
But like I said…there are many examples of this happening, where one loss puts you over the edge more than the ones that came before.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
You’re focusing too much on the particulars of how teams went out instead of the path of development the team was on. The DET team you cited won 3 Cups in 6 years. The one I cited, while different in specific playoff results, was young, talented, and up and coming but never able to reach the potential others thought they had.
(And the Oilers didn’t win the Cup after their 3rd loss, either. They lost to NYI in that first appearance.)
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
i’m actually not focusing on either, I just used the examples where it went loss, loss, loss, Cup (except for the Oilers where I wasn’t reading the Wikipedia listing correctly). As I said, there are tons of examples of teams being good but needing one final kick in the pants, i.e. a loss to a crappy team early on, to get them over the hump.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I’m pretty sure Yzerman’s Wings at one point won the President’s Trophy and then lost early. I think that was 94, then they went to the Finals in 95 and fell into a trap.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
The Rangers won the Prez trophy in 94. Wings won it in 95 and 96
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Chicago had 106 points and won the trophy in 1990-91, and lost to Minnesota in the first round. St. Louis lost in the first round in 99-00 to San Jose, and Detroit lost in the first round to Edmonton in 05-06
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
2002. Wings cracked 120 points, too. And then promptly lost in 6 to Edmonton.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
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That was 05-06
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
oh, right. 2002 they won. clearly, I need to go back to bed if I’m mixing those dates up.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
Looking back through the President’s Trophy winners, I have to conclude the Minnesota North Stars playoff run in 1990 is the most incredible run in NHL history. They finished that season with 68 points, beat the President’s Trophy winner in the first round (106 points), beat St. Louis the second round (105 points) and beat the defending Champs (the Oilers) before falling to the Pens. Unbelievable.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I stick to my theory that losing to the Pens last year wasn’t as effective a building tool b/c they could say "hey, we lost to the eventual Cup champs who weren’t really a #5 seed" – not the same as losing to a barely-8th seed after being up 3-1.
That sounds kinda Boudeau-vian, if you ax me. No hard questions (in public, anyway) losing to an 8th seed on home ice, ditto for squeaking by a 7th seed the year before.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
What?? How do you get that from what I said? I’m saying there ARE no excuses this year. Not that there were last year, either, but they were going around saying “hey, we lost to the eventual Champs”. I heard it from a few of them, it made me cringe.
It’s worse, more painful, and more of a kick in the ass to lose to Montreal because they should have beaten an 8th seed – and they know it.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I understand what you’re saying, but it just reads to me like “we lost to the eventual champions” is 2009’s “we ran into a hot goalie.” It’s rationalizing without doing some in the room tinkering with either systems or minds. And if using that statement is going to be a crutch for the coach, then where’s the teachable moment for all?
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
Right, but what they say and how they really think is different – and from interviews I’ve read this year, none of them are saying just that they ran into a hot goalie. Bruce might be saying it (in his never-ending attempt to shelter his team via the media) but the players sure aren’t. Last summer the players were using the “lost to the Champs” line. A lot.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
The fact that GMGM has kicked the tires on guys like Sharp and Mitchell tells me he knows what their needs are – doesn’t mean the team as it stands should be seen as anywhere beneath teams with equally glaring holes like the teams that have been tossed around.
What other teams have equally as glaring holes? The Capitals have no second line center, are basically hoping something works out for the third line (which I think is fine, but still carries some risk), and are planning to dress guys who are marginal NHL players on a regular basis. What other contender is in that boat?
And re: Alzner…maybe, maybe not. I was thinking more along the lines of Schultz/Poti than Alzner, to be honest (and we don’t know who #5 is, btw). Either way, he may not crack the top 4 but he’s not a definitive bottom-pair guy, either.
It’s not going to be Poti or Schultz – no way both Carlson and Alzner have passed those two over the summer.
Of all of the teams mentioned as contenders, Vancouver’s probably the most well-rounded – but while they have a good 2nd line their top line isn’t as dominant, and I think our 3rd/4th line is better. Alberts and O’Brien aren’t that great (especially SOB) on the D.
LA’s D is much more questionable than ours, although Mitchell will help that a bit, and their bottom 3 D are kind of sad. Their goaltending’s as much of a question as ours is if not more, I don’t think Quick or Ersberg are at quite the same level as Varly/Neuvy.
Pittsburgh continues to have big holes on the wing and are going to have to move centers out of their natural position to fill them. You don’t think that’s “hoping something works out”? Plus while they upgraded their top D pair, that bottom 4’s not great.
I’m just saying it’s September and having glaring holes in September doesn’t bother me. It doesn’t take a team off the contender list, either, because no team is set.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Vancouver doesn’t so much have holes as areas they could stand to improve.
The Kings has the same depth issue on defense as the Capitals; Pittsburgh arguably has the same sort of forward issue the Capitals have up front. The key is that with both you can fairly analogize them to the Capitals;t the Caps have both problems. I don’t think any other contender has holes like that.
And the Pens’ hole is one in the least important position and a hole in which they’ve already won a Cup despite the existence of.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
And it’s a hole that will be addressed come trade deadline time….Just have to find more of a Guerin and less of a Ponikarovsky.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
And the Pens’ hole is one in the least important position
Since when did the netminder become so insignificant?
back to cool special
Since when was the Pens’ hole in net? Fleury isn’t an elite goalie but he obviously is good enough to get a team through the playoffs.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 7, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I read it as a five-hole joke (which I’d make more for Brodeur, considering ILWT seeing that Brodeur gives up lots of five-hole goals), and AO in the Snovechkin game scored once…twice five hole, plus Knuble (kind of).
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Did ILWT run an analysis of 5-hole goals on Brodeur? I’d be interested in seeing that. Just from my own eyes I’ve been saying for a couple years that Brodeur’s slowing reflexes and refusal to use the butterfly is leading to a lot more soft goals goals under his pads.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 7, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
The author was looking at all the goals Brodeur gave up (summary), kind of like that JtG post the other day but much more in depth.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It was meant as snark, but he’s a career 2.82/.907; his last two seasons he has averaged 2.66/.908. I’m sure he was flat out in a few of those 72 wins (regs) he earned from 2008-2010, but MAF is not even in the next category down from ‘elite.’ He’s a touch better than middling on a very good team, and I wouldn’t point to him as a strength in that lineup.
back to cool special
So for Pittsburgh, we have Martin, Michalek, Letang, Orpik as top-4. I don’t see Alzner sliding in there anywhere.
Vancouver: Hamhuis, Ballard, Edler, Ehrhoff. Again, Alzner, as he currently plays, doesn’t crack that top-4
Philly: Pronger, Timonen, Coburn, Carle. He’s not getting in there, either. Not unless Coburn continues to regress.
LA: Doughty, Johnson, Mitchell, Scuderi. No chance he makes it against that group.
Barring injuries, he’s not an option in any of those named contender’s top D pairings, in my opinion.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I should amend this: I like Goligoski as a player much better than I like Orpik.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Your picture was accurate though, Goligoski won’t be top 4.
Orpik will be interesting now that he can’t be Gonchar’s partner and with Martin/Michalek’s addition, he won’t probably be matching up against #1 lines at all. I think that should suit him a lot better.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
I’m not so shocked to not see Alzner in the top-4 of other contending teams’ defense, because I don’t think he’s top 4 on the Capitals, either.
Green, Schultz, Poti, and Carlson are the top 4.
And, really, if the Caps had gotten Mitchell (and not been able to get rid of Erskine), I bet Alzner would’ve started the season in Hershey.
I don’t think there is any way Alzner would have started the season in HER. They know he’s better than Erskine and Sloan. Shamo and Juice are gone. I agree he’s not in the top 4 right now but the only way he’s going to HER, with or without Mitchell or another top-4 D, is if he absolutely craps himself in training camp.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Sloan and Erskine? They’ve shown they’re more than willing to eat Nylander’s salary to not even have him in the same state. I think they can live with Erskine/Sloan in the pressbox. Even if they don’t want to eat that salary, they could waive either guy and not shed a tear. They called up Alzner for game 7 last year while those two sat; they drafted him at 5 overall and expect him to be a stud; he has nothing left to prove in the AHL. I absolutely cannot see a non-cap financial decision keeping him in HER this year.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I’d rather have Alzner than Scuderi
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 7, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
From my admittedly limited viewings of the Kings and somewhat less limited viewing of the Pens while Scuderi was there, I’m going to go ahead and disagree. Someday in the future? Yes. This season? I’d set it at 65/35 Scuderi is the better player at the end of this year.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Really? Just looking at Pitt and Philly, they have respective bottom pairs of:
Goligoski – Lovejoy
Meszaros – O’Donnell/Walker
Maybe this is a case of familiarity breeding contempt, but I like all those guys better than Erskine.
(Apologize for not going into LA and VAN, as I will stipulate to not knowing their rosters well enough to make a credible case.)
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Lovejoy’s played exactly 14 NHL games, I’m not ready to declare him better than anyone who has spent longer than that in the NHL yet. As I said above, O’Donnell is old and slow and not really an upgrade over Erskine.
Look, I know a lot of us aren’t huge Erskine fans and there is a tendency to lump him in with Sloan, but the guy’s not a horrific NHLer – and he is an NHLer, not an AHLer. I wouldn’t want him on my top pair and I don’t think he should get tons of ice time but I don’t get that nervous with him out there, either.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Lovejoy’s played exactly 14 NHL games, I’m not ready to declare him better than anyone who has spent longer than that in the NHL yet
That’s reasonable, but the dude is 25, has led the AHL in plus/minus and has a ton of experience. Not at the NHL level, but he’s hardly going into uncharted waters.
On top of that, it’s Erskine at over double the salary of Lovejoy, an important $750,000 to teams near the cap.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Right…but my point is a guy who has spent most of his career in the AHL so far isn’t really an upgrade over a guy who has had a relatively steady NHL career. I’m not saying he’s going to fail but he won’t be a Carlson or an Alzner, either. And until we see him for a full season it’s silly to say he’s an upgrade over someone who hasn’t been all that bad at the NHL level – and has more experience being there.
Not really sure what money has to do with it, I was talking in terms of skill level and expectations. But of course Erskine’s going to make more, he’s been in the NHL longer.
…also by the time Erskine was 25 he’d already played about 5 times as many NHL games as Lovejoy. Just sayin’.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I think the money is a factor because your initial point was Erskine is at the same level as other people who will be in the lineup every night, whereas he may or may not be. Having a 6 or 7 D at $1.2 million is a world of difference from $550k for a team near the cap, which is another point in favor of a young player.
Erskine was a second round pick, Lovejoy an undrafted free agent who spent four years in college. Comparing their career tracks isn’t fair, or really indicative of who is/was/will be a better player. Erskine played more NHL games before he was 26 years old than Brian Rafalski did, would you take him over Rafalski? Maybe you would have leaned that way before Rafalski’s rookie season, but that still doesn’t mean it was the right decision. Perhaps a reasonable one given the info, but not the right one.
It’s impossible to say Lovejoy is better than anyone who’s an established NHL’er at this point, but I’m just saying it doesn’t mean he’s worse than a guy who hasn’t been more than an NHL level spare part/injury magnet.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
FD, there are probably 23 teams that envy the Caps’ position right now. Maybe more.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the definition is too restrictive, then. Like F&B says below, every team has holes. The Caps may have bigger holes but they generally can mask them pretty well too, at evens at least.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t get me wrong. I’m looking forward to this season and I’m going to enjoy it. I’m just not buying into any buzz that the Caps are major contenders.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
But by your standard basically nobody is. Everyone has holes or problems to address, and until after the trade deadline we don’t actually know what any of these teams will look like.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I think DMG summed up my qualms perfectly: it’s one thing to have needs and/or potential trouble spots, and it’s another thing entirely to have obvious, gaping gaps in the roster and horrible deficiencies in crucial areas of the game.
I can’t see a team that kills at less than 80%, with 1 great center and 1 replacement level center on the roster, and with two rookies hoping to play impact minutes on D, as having a reasonable shot to contend.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
That’s fair, and I mostly agree. I don’t think this exact roster would be on my short list for teams that I’d guess will win the Cup. I also don’t think this is the roster we’ll go into the playoffs with, and there is a lot left to be revealed about the quality of many of our young players. Until I see how that plays, talk of contenders is of minimal value.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I also don’t think this is the roster we’ll go into the playoffs with, and there is a lot left to be revealed about the quality of many of our young players.
Right. As I caveated by noting that there’s a lot that will develop over the next 9 months.
Until I see how that plays, talk of contenders is of minimal value.
Perhaps.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Ha. I guess it has value insofar as giving us something to debate and kill time, but we’re arguing over something that’s a huge unknown so it’s an even higher degree of speculation than you’d usually expect to see.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
but we’re arguing over something that’s a huge unknown so it’s an even higher degree of speculation than you’d usually expect
Agree with you here, if you’re trying to project who hoists the chalice in June.
I had to go back and actually look at the original comment I made, just to remind myself how we got here. I was disagreeing with the statement, made on another blog, that “the Caps are on the verge of a Cup”, and specifically stating that I don’t see how you can look at this roster and think it’s poised to win.
That involves some projection, assumption and speculation, but I think it’s a pretty safe conclusion. I’ll specifically note that I did not start this thing with a “Here are my Top 5 Contenders” or similar post.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Yeah, and I basically agree with you so I’m not even sure why I’m arguing.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I suspect it’s mostly to keep the fan base from pluging headlong over a cliff in despair?
Though, I’m not sure that would be such a bad thing.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
I have to agree with this. This entire argument assumes that all of the unknowns will turn out badly, that all of the negative knowns will stay as they are, and that all of the positive knowns will crumble and fall. Spoken like a true Caps fan :)
Seriously, I think F&B’s right in that this is all negative speculation. good debate fodder but not perhaps valid predictors.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
What about the part right before your quote starts?
After trying to improve by throwing money at free agents
Implicit here is Jagr, who, of course, wasn’t a free agent acquisition. The only relatively big-bucks guy from that era via free agency was Lang, and he was actually pretty good for the team.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
More sloppy analysis, you are correct.
I generally agree with the proposition that GM is a pretty good GM, and we could have it a whole lot worse (see, Donny Wads, Sather, Sutter, et al), though. So I don’t really want to trash the guy that wrote the article.
I just find some of the evidence he adduces…puzzling.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
(She.)
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Forgive me sister, for I have Burton’d.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
by fat_daddyo on Sep 7, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
So I make a check on the nhl.com tweetmixx, and find this:
Chris Kuc 30 minutes ago
#Blackhawks have sold out their training camp festival. Standing-room-only crowd expected to watch first day of practice at United Center
OK, so it’s at United Center and not the practice rink, but a charge to watch practice? There seems to be a lot of other “fan fest” stuff, too, but doesn’t seem like the kind of thing to charge for. Granted this is all I know, but just my opinion.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
The Hawks apparently have money issues outside of trying to get under the cap, besides the UC expense to open it for a practice/festival doesn’t help matters.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 7, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey, people are paying for it, and with a Cup winner, get it while it’s hot. If you do something like that at the practice facility, like the Caps would, you can’t accomodate as many people, but don’t have the expense. It’s a tradeoff. It’s like wanting the rookie game at Verizon, but then it couldn’t be free, and I question if the team could actually make a profit on it.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
Perhaps. And I recognize that the Hawks have some money issues (though as with movie production the devil is in the accounting details).
However, I give Caps’ management a lot of credit for not going down the “charging people to visit practice” etc route. I’m fine with getting a ticket in order to control the crowds, such as what they have done with the upcoming rookie game. But I’d hate it if I also had to pay for the ticket. Or if I were to get charged for showing up at one of the practices.
"I’m very happy to hear the news," Ovechkin said when he heard about Backstrom's longterm contract--"because he’s one of the top centers in the world, one of my best friends and we want to play together for a long time. He’s a guy who wants to stay in one place and be comfortable and win, just like me. We talk all the time about playing together, and we talked after the playoffs about how we can win in Washington."
by capsyoungguns on Sep 7, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know anything about the Blackhawks, but I’ve got to assume this is a one-time thing; I’m sure there’s not normally a charge to watch practice. Unless you can’t actually watch practice.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
I think we forget how lucky we are to have every camp, every practice, every scrimmage open and free to the public. Other teams do it but it’s not the norm, you know? The Leafs have a big open practice once a year that they charge for but their practices are closed, and I think the Hawks are the same way.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Heh. Stretch never fails to make me smile.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Varlamov has new mask on order and it will be ready in a few weeks. He refused to give any details. “It’s a surprise.”
Caps Snaps - Washington Capitals News and Photography
by cobracg on Sep 7, 2010 11:45 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
....
?
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
The best part is the Comic Sans font.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Sep 7, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Dan Gilbert would surely approve.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
by Carl Putnam on Sep 7, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So is there still any hope for a top 4 defenseman being acquired by season’s start? (fallen behind on all the Caps talk lately)
If you want to survive out here, you've got to know where your towel is.
I don’t see any realistic way for it to occur. All the FA types have been signed. That leaves the possibility of a trade, of course, but I can’t see one that has any decent shot at actually transpiring.
I think the only realistic D upgrades that remain are lower on the depth chart (which, to the extent they move Erskine and Sloan out of regular TOI, would still hold value).
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I think the only realistic D upgrades that remain are lower on the depth chart (which, to the extent they move Erskine and Sloan out of regular TOI, would still hold value).
Mike Mottau, FTW!
No. But I think they should still sign Jay McKee.
Not much left in the tank, but you give him 5/6 minutes where he doesn’t have to do much, i’d do it, especially cause it’ll be cheap (and will give you better minutes than Route 489.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Problem is last year he barely looked like an AHL defender. I’ll pass.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
Would you rather have a guy who barely looks like an AHL defender, or two AHL defenders? ;)
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’d prefer the Caps stick to paying 2 instead of 3.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
by Carl Putnam on Sep 7, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Puck Prospectus projected McKee to a 3.7 GVT this year…assuming he’d sign for the minimum, that would be a good guy to have in the stable as an injury replacement, etc.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Yeah, I agree. I’m not even convinced McKee can outplay Sloan now, and as far as tough and grizzled Erskine has more left. McKee combines all the weaknesses of Route 489 without any of the strengths.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Probably would be a little cheaper than Paul Mara. But Mara does bring more to the table.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t like either option.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
There aren’t a whole lot of others at this point.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I have a hard time believing McPhee would completely neglect the 6D spot. Hell, I’d rather have S. Morrison back than any of the current options.
Not me. ShaMo is addition by subtraction.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
by fat_daddyo on Sep 7, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Seriously. That guy was remarkably bad last year.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 7, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And the year before that.
If the choice is Erskine in the lineup or ShaMo at twice the price, I want Erskine all day.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe the Caps can get Mara to chirp Malkin into following him around the ice again, only this time the refs see it!
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure I’m feeling the Cooke shout out. The pump up video with “Redemption” and Erskine crossing himself gave me chills though.
~~~ R0cK D@ R3D ~~~
by Chaz-Capapalooza on Sep 7, 2010 12:19 PM EDT reply actions
Hey, Stecks went 15th overall in the SBNation expansion draft.
http://www.sbnation.com/2010/8/26/1652008/2010-nhl-mock-expansion-draft-sb-nation
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Stecks, and only Stecks? Yay?
Hawerchuk is the GM for Winnipeg, Mirtle for Quebec.
Winnipeg
F: Michael Ryder, Radim Vrbata, Daniel Carcillo, Vernon Fiddler, David Steckel, BJ Crombeen, Sean Horcoff, Rob Niedermayer, Scott Nichol, Brian Rolston, Tim Jackman, Drew Miller, Rick Rypien, Ryan Carter
D: Colin White, Roman Hamrlik, Adam Foote, Sean O’Donnell, Jerrod Smithson, Mattias Ohlund, Bruno Gervais, Karlis Skrastins, John Scott, Sami Salo
G: Josh Harding, Erik Ersberg
Quebec
F: Scott Gomez, P-M Bouchard, Ryan Malone, Chris Kelly, Erik Christiensen, Kevin Porter, Steve Bernier, Tim Kennedy, Jordan Tootoo, Tomas Kopecky, Cory Sarich, Colby Armstrong, Justin Williams, Cory Stillman, Ryan Shannon, Krys Barch
D: Barret Jackman, Craig Rivet, Rostislav Klesla, Anton Babchuk, Andrew Ference, Ruslan Salei, Brett Festerling,
G: Ondrej Pavelec, Antti Niemi, JS Giguere
I like Quebec here.
by red army line on Sep 7, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
How in God’s name did Radim Vrbata go unprotected?!
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
He stinks everywhere that isn’t Phoenix?
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 7, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I can answer that
Basically, Gretzky shafted Travis Hair’s process by playing guys like Turris and Tikhonov (and others, I think) 50 or more games and sending them back to the AHL.
So according to the rules we played by, those ‘rookies’ had to be protected. It was either expose Vrbata or one of their prized prospects. I suppose he could’ve gone with Prucha, but it was a lose-lose situation.
Vogel video from this morning’s skate and lots of locker room quotes, featuring Knuble, Flash, Schultz, Erskine, and Nicky. bonus: multiple cameos by Stretch.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
not really. He has a hat on during his interview. But it looks like typical Nicky, only shorter.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
Just in case it hasn’t been said, big ups to J.P. for the Billy Madison pull.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 7, 2010 1:07 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I was about to admonish the class for not recognizing…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Better sign Belanger quickly-
Big #mnwild news: Center James Sheppard had ATV accident in Vail yesterday, injured kneecap, had surgery & out 3-4 mths-Todd Richards says (@russostrib)
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
There’s not much overlap between Belly and Sheppard’s roles. Simply put, Sheppard blows. And the Wild signed Cullen and Madden, so they’ve moved on from Belly.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
AnGus lacks confidence. and other tidbits, from CI
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
“He’s obviously in a way higher weight class than I’m in, so it’s great to have a guy like him here,” Bradley said.
Very droll. The Professor still has the gift.
"I’m very happy to hear the news," Ovechkin said when he heard about Backstrom's longterm contract--"because he’s one of the top centers in the world, one of my best friends and we want to play together for a long time. He’s a guy who wants to stay in one place and be comfortable and win, just like me. We talk all the time about playing together, and we talked after the playoffs about how we can win in Washington."
by capsyoungguns on Sep 7, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Potentially the best SBN Post Ever
This is from ILWT, in the comments section to a post about the upcoming Devils salary dump. Yep. It’s perfect.
This Article is Comical
I would not expect anything less from a writer like yourself who think’s Paul Martin was a severe loss. What in the HELL has Travis Zajac done in three years that makes him not expendable? True, he is a young player ..still trying to get beetter. However a first round center that has been in this league should be able to win at least two consecutive critical face -off’s. He has to shoot more and when he does we all pray that he does NOT just do his usual ..slap shot into the breadbasket. The guy is lost it seems in front of the net. Parise really makes him look better than he really is. Has he improved? Yes to some degree, but he has been lost and did he even show up in the playoffs? So how could he NOT be expendable? Josefson is better than him right now. Is Henrique ready? No, but I can’t see him being worse than Zajac. The kid can play the damn game and he has a bit of a nastiness in front of the net. Do I want to see Travi leave? No. However,it’s not like he is Wayne Gretzky. Oh yeah, Wayne did get traded. Travi needs to improve on the face off this year or he should be gone next year.
"Don’t get attached to propsects?" That is pretty stupid. The Devils are in a position where they need to bring them along even more now since of their pay scale. Palms, Josefson, Urbom, Corrente, Zharkov, Henrique. Eckford, Frazee and Tedenby are not going anywhere..anytime soon. Are you kidding me? Really, Lou sends down Tommy to ALbany for what? WOW..to help along THE SWEDES!!!!! HELLO!!! ARE YOU THAT BLIND AND STUPID? There is NO reason on earth to even doubt that fact, so why in the hell even bring up a scenario like that? The Devils need their young players. PERIOD!! Umm, Devs fans..dont’ listen to this…get attached with them.
However, with all of that being said….Salvador is nothing that Colin White is not or actually used to be since his eye injury. It’s a damn shame too because COlin is a good person. However he is not what he used to be. He and Sal are interchangeable to either one could be gone. Sal had a terrible year last year and he did not play how is expected to play in the playoffs. Quite frankly..he was a Flyers rag doll. It was embarassing. Seems as though YOU sir are attached to vet’s who don’t have it.
Rolston screwed this team because he was suppossed to be a center, not a wing when he was signed. We gave him a horrible contract and we can only hope that some cheap ass team takes him off our hands. For some reason, I think he can be done as you illustrated with Colorado or another low ball team.
Zubes? He has never really gotten better since he left Philly. In Washington he had success because he played with OV. In fact Zubes did not find his game until Ilya got here. We signed Zubes to a bad deal and it would not hurt at all if he stayed or if he went elsewhere.
Bottom line, we will be under the cap when we need to be under the cap. Lou has done nothing but imrpove this team on every level. Paul Martin is not a loss, because Mr. Eckofrd can be just as effective as Martin would be right now and he has upside. Paula could not even set up a power play consistantly. So we let Paula leave and we sign the BEST young stay at home ..shot blocking D man in the league. WOW, is Paul even in the top ten of offensive d men? Not even close. Tallinder is better than Paula as well. Lou has IMRPOVED this team.
The New Jersey Devils are NOT giving up their young talent, it’s the vet’s who never had it that are leaving. The vet’s that were not good enough are gone.
To think, even suggest, that the Devs would give up young players like Josefson, Urbom, Tedenby, Henrique, etc is just comical. Very good-to great young players with cheap contracts…WOW….yup, gotta get offer them.
“It’s not just about stopping their shots. It’s about breaking their confidence level.” – Martin Brodeur.
by VivaSaintMartin30 on Sep 5, 2010 6:51 PM PDT reply actions
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
one hell of a rant.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
Yeah, but I agree with the original post anyway. He’s got the passion, but the argument is weak sauce.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I was thinking that the NJD could just stick Zubie in the AHL, but his cap savings less the cost to replace him at the minimum gets them only to more or less even with the cap, so they’d have to do something else in addition…no way around it, they have to dump bodies. Which means they’re going to have to send along picks/prospects as part of the process.
The Zajac talk is lunacy, though. They’ll never trade that guy.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Not without someone giving them an insane return. They can’t replace him as 1C so they are going to have to keep him.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I just hope there isn’t a friendly GM who helps them out for cheap. They deserve to be raked over the coals for it.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
Ahoy-hoy, fellow Rink Rats and Rabbits…new Question of the Day is up.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Commence tearing of the clothing and gnashing of the teeth, kids…Jeff Halpern is now a member of the Montreal Canadiens. :)
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Hey, cool. That means I get to see him play more often than if he’d stayed in the west.
"I wake up in the middle night frustrated because we lost out in the first round and I want to see our players hoist the Stanley Cup." -Brooks Laich
by CapitalCentre on Sep 7, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Fuck me.
I’d rather have him than Belanger at 3C, no question about it. What were the terms?
Next you’re going to tell me that Mottau signed with the Pens.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck me!
There’s no chance Belanger’s worth twice that much. Zippy.
That’s a great deal for the Habs.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Why so high on Halpern?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Not high on Halpern so much as think he’s a far better value at 1mil 3C than Belanger at 1.8.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s a lot of "u"s for 800k. I think Belanger is a significantly better player and 800K doesn’t hurt us right now. There aren’t any top 4 D to sign right now, so we’d have to trade anyway. Every day we go into the season with 3+ million in cap space will bank cap space and allow us to afford anyone we’d want during the season. If we find a trade before the season starts we can trade out salary (most likely Flash or Fehr, which is 2+ going out). And then there’s always the Sloan-to-Hershey option. Or waiving Erskine. We can find that 800K down the line if we need it.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
See, I don’t think very highly of Belanger at all. Halpern did pretty well in L.A. last season and I suspect he’s still got something left in the tank.
Belanger is faster, but I don’t think he’s a very good player.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
600,000K for Halpern. Stone cold steal.
I think.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-it.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, but…the Caps are (conceivably) signing Belanger for the 2C role, at least temporarily. Halpy’s not fast enough or skilled enough to fill that role.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d take Halpy in a heartbeat because I love him but I’m not sure he’d fit the role we need him to fill.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Halpy’s not fast enough or skilled enough to fill that role.
Belanger isn’t skilled enough to play that role effectively. The speed is necessary, but insufficient. Belanger is technically going to line up at 2C, but he’s a moderate 3C in reality. The Caps need one of those too, but at half the price I’d far rather have Halpern.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Playing devil’s advocate, could he even keep up as 3C in the Caps’ system? I read a comment that the injury at the World Championships a couple of years ago really did him in.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
Oh, hell, it was Burnside who said that.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
Yeah…I saw that and wondered how much of his anti-Caps sentiment extended to former Caps ;)
But honestly there’s some validity to it. There’s also some validity to the fact that he’s never really had much footspeed to begin with, nor as much skill as some others. In the (admittedly few) games I’ve seen him in I haven’t noticed too much of a decline, though.
He’s still a feisty little bugger, tough to play against, good fit for Montreal. Not sure that the same could be said for the Caps.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
He’s still a feisty little bugger, tough to play against,
Isn’t that a weakness the Caps should be looking to address?
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he’s tough enough to play against to really fill that need, and insofar as he would I think it would be better on the fourth line. As long as we have Semin and no 2C, we are going to need our 3rd line to give us quality secondary scoring. Belanger helps in that respect much more than Halpern.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Exactly. He’s tough to play against, but not really an upgrade over guys we already have who play similar roles (other than in price) – plus he’s 34 and was never all that fast when he was younger. Belanger’s a much better fit – relatively speaking – than Halpern.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Belanger is very fast, but his puck skills aren’t great and he’s never been an offensive dynamo himself. Belanger is also on the dark side of 30 and it’s older than 31, is it not?
Speed is good, but players without it can still get by on smarts and positioning. Fehr isn’t the fastest guy out there, but he’s effective within the system, it is possible.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Just a reminder to all — Belanger’s not a member of the Caps.
Right?
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
This is all predicated on the idea that there’s a deal in place for 1.8 million for a single season.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Missed it, sorry.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Belanger helps in that respect much more than Halpern.
He’s never cracked 41 points, even with significant PP time. He’s not going to get that on this team and he’s not going to get time with Alex Semin on the 3rd line. I don’t think Belanger helps more than Halpern at their respective salaries to justify Belanger over Halpern.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
And even if Halpern can hack it at 3C, he’ll be adequate at best. Belanger would be a good 3C. With the wings likely to be on that line Belanger playing 3C and getting some PK time is a better fit for this team than Halpern. Flash will get to try out 2C for a while, Belanger will get some looks there, and the kids will probably get some looks there. I expect there to be a revolving door at 2C for most of the season, and unless one of the kids really wows us, it probably won’t be solved except through trade.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I think both of them are adequate 3Cs, but I don’t see either of them as better than adequate.
If the PK system is just waving sticks at the top of the circles, I think Halpern is somewhat smarter about where his stick goes and better along the boards – I’d rather have him; Belanger’s got pretty mediocre PK numbers over his career, other than time played.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not saying either is a difference maker on the PK, you know I don’t think any F is. I’m just saying you can put Belanger out there and he can take the minutes and be as worthless as any other guy, he just won’t be a liability on the PK. I think he has better passing and puck skills than Halpern at this point, is much faster, a little bigger, and younger. I think Belanger makes it more likely that our 3rd line is playing in the good end of the ice. 1.8 compared to 1 isn’t a big deal for me. 1.8 compared to 600K changes it a little bit. I might prefer Halpern at 3C if he’s 1/3 the price, but in any event we aren’t cramped for cap space right now.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I like Halpy as much as the next guy but unless we are turning back the clock ten years and having him flanked by Ulfie and Kono for his wingmen, I am alright with taking a pass on him
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
Yeah, this is where I am. A moderately below average player for $600,000 is a good deal for your fourth line or bottom defensive pairing. At 3C that starts to be a liability. I just don’t see Halpern, at his current age and skillset, as a good fit for this team at any price — not unless Gordon or Steckel were moved.
Belanger makes sense to me. He’s not idea, but I understand what he’d contribute and I can justify 1.8 Million for that. I don’t feel the same way about Halpern. He’s just not the same player he was.
The last time Halpern scored more than 25 points, he was a Capital
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 7, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m getting the sense that I’m significantly lower on Belanger than others, which is what I think it comes down to. Neither is ideal in my mind, but I like the not-ideal Halpern for less than 1 mil (and a lot more at 600K) than I like not-ideal Belanger at 1.8 mil.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
FWIW, I’m down a lot more on Halpern than you seem to be, relative to Belanger.
Halpern is a 4th line C at this point. Now, if you wanted to talk about Halpy at 600K v. Steckel at 1.3M, I think I’d much rather have Halpy.
But not in place of Belanger at 3C.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Here’s the thing; neither of them are appreciably better than the other at keeping their team in the right end of the ice, insofar as I can tell.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 7, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Florida
|
50 | 24 | 15 | 11 | 59 |
|
Washington
|
50 | 26 | 20 | 4 | 56 |
|
Winnipeg
|
53 | 24 | 23 | 6 | 54 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
50 | 22 | 23 | 5 | 49 |
|
Carolina
|
53 | 19 | 25 | 9 | 47 |
(updated 2.4.2012 at 8:30 AM EST)
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