Caps Extend Poti
"Tom Poti signs two-year extension with WAS. $3M in 2011-12, $2.75M in 2012-13." - @TSNBobMcKenzie
over 1 year ago
J.P.
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Someone take all of JSchon’s belts and shoelaces away from him.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
Except Poti took a pay cut, not a pay raise and is actually making a very reasonable salary for his skill set. Not a bad signing to keep around their only legit everyday Dman over the age of 25.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Hah. I did not twig to the AAV going down.
Makes me feel slightly better.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Further to this, from Corey:
Tom Poti said he left $$$ on the table because he wants to win “not just 1 Cup but hopefully more than 1” in Washington.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 21, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Jeez, GMGM was trying to pay him more, but Poti saved him from himself…
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Nah, I think Poti just didn’t ask for more – I’d find it highly unlikely that GMGM would offer a higher number and a player would say “no thanks, let’s knock a couple hundred grand off that”.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I suspect FD was kidding. No way anyone turns down more money, unless they are a superstar and can free up money to sign another player.
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
Also, I think it’s more of him thinking he could get more money elsewhere (maybe, maybe not), but he might also only get one year, and he’d have to wait until next summer. He likes it here and has security, so it’s a win for him.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Plus, it’s not like he’s working for peanuts, either. Cause that would be bad AMIRITE
by Wheeler on Sep 21, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He didn’t really leave money on the table. He just didn’t push harder or ask for more. By rule, nobody was offering him more money, and by logic, he didn’t ask GMGM to lower his offer.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
This is the internet, where hairs are split.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
I guess. But it was Poti’s comment that he “left money on the table.” Maybe you call it splitting hairs, I call it a factually inaccurate statement.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I bet you passed the shit out of the Bar, brother.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Let’s be clear though, it was an oral agreement, not a verbal agreement, before the contract was signed, right?
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
by STLSpidey on Sep 21, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
YAY!!!!!!!!! This makes me (and probably only about 3 other people) so ridiculous happy…I was hoping we wouldn’t lose him :) Say what you will about his PK, the guy’s a solid D and a veteran presence to help the kids. LOVE IT.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
grumblegrumbledeclinephasegrumblegrumble
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
by fat_daddyo on Sep 21, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree but for 2 more years after this one at almost a 3M cap hit, that seems high to me and I want to look into the D men that could be free agents in that time. I’m worried there are probably better options for less.
"Ovechkin is as subtle as a shot of vodka."
There are sure to be better options, and there are sure to be cheaper options. But given the type of Dmen who have gotten $3+ million deals in free agency the past few years I highly doubt that there are options that are better AND cheaper.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Further to this point, see the list of Defensemen who will be a free agent at the end of this year.
There aren’t a lot of guys around the Tom Poti price-point who provide the same all-around sort of skill-set. And the Caps have enough contracts coming off the books at the end of this year (John Erskine, Tomas Fleischmann, Alex Semin) that they still might be able to find someone else on the free agent market who would be a major improvement as a 4/5/6 d-man.
I’m also looking at the contracts signed by Dmen this summer. Tallinder, Girardi, Hjalmarsson, Mitchell, Wisniewski, Coburn, Quincey, Leopold and Lydman all got $3-3.5 mil this summer. How many of those guys do you think are clearly better than Poti?
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting. Which 5?
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah…I’m with K_C on this one, I’m not sure I’d say 5 of those guys are better. Maybe as good but I’d say it’s closer to 2 or 3.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Further to that point, check out what some NHL defensemen are making that’s 2-3 times as much as this – not all of these guys are top 4 D by any stretch of the imagination, unless they play on crappy teams.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
The only guy I see who makes 2x what Poti will under this contract (5.7M) and isn’t top four is Redden.
And, by rule, using a Sather contract as a point of reference is irrelevant.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Liles? Souray? And maybe not all of them are 2-3 times but every name on that list makes or will make more than Poti and not all of them are worth it.
Just saying, it’s possibly a slight overpayment but it could be a lot worse for a lot worse.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Liles and Souray (when healthy) are most definitely top 4.
So there are bad contracts in the NHL. Breaking news, right? I don’t see how that justifies a different contract. Poti’s deal is either good or bad on its merits, not because another GM offered another player too much money.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
This isn’t 2006. Liles was a healthy scratch frequently last year. Souray is garbage outside of the PK. He’s a big, injury prone Marc-Andre Bergeron.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I was gonna say. Geez, when we start thinking Souray is still a legit top 4 guy…he hasn’t been for years, and he hasn’t stayed healthy in years, either.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
And if he had stayed healthy I bet he would have been in the top 4.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Nah, when he was healthy he sucked, too. I know, he used to be one of my favorites in Montreal – so that should tell you how good he was.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Just because you are one-dimensional doesn’t mean you can’t play top 4. Just because you are overpaid doesn’t mean you aren’t top 4. If Campbell had the injuries and Souray was healthy then we’d consider Souray a defensive liability in the top 4 and Campbell would be marginal.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Well, first things first – how are we defining top four? Because if it’s top four in overall ice time, Souray is there without a shadow of a doubt.
And are we talking EDM top 4, or legit contender top 4?
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Either. I would think Souray gets top four total minutes most places because I think most places he racks up a lot of PP time.
I think even ES he probably stays top 4 in minutes. As limited as he is, he still is better than a bottom pair guy on almost any team. You might have to pair him with a Hjalmar/Schultz type one-dimensional guy, but he’d still get minutes.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Maybe next year’s training camp t-shirt can have “It could be a lot worse” on the back.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I don’t really like that approach. If McPhee gave Fleischmann a three-year, $15M contract it wouldn’t make me feel better that Gomez and Drury have worse ones.
Well, it’s somewhat off the point anyway. Really my point was that there aren’t a lot of guys with Poti’s skillset who are making as little as he’ll be making after this year.
I also wonder why everyone’s getting SO hung up on this being done now. Who cares? GMGM gets deals done when he gets them done, my guess is they start talking to a lot of the guys coming up to new contracts when it suits the team, not when it might seem logical to us. It wasn’t a 5-year deal for obscene amounts of money, I don’t see this being the deal that ties the Caps’ hands on any bigger moves down the road.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
by Becca H on Sep 21, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I don’t really get what the upheaval is about.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
I can’t speak for everyone, but as I noted, my concerns are more about timing than the deal itself.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
The club is now committed to 3 more years of a guy squarely in his decline phase and who has an injury history.
He’s coming off another injury. The club could easily have waited to see what he looked like the first couple of months of the season and then extended him.
GM has a bad history of extending marginal defensemen.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Are we really now referring to Poti as a “marginal defenseman?”
Sloan -yes.
Erkine -yes.
Poti is not a marginal defenseman.
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
This is true. But it’s also important not to overvalue the contributions of a guy who isn’t (positively) contributing to either special teams unit.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I agree. I’m looking at this squarely as a signing of a 5/6 D before the contract runs out. In that light, I’m happy with it.
(As per other posts) I’m also giving a lot of weight to the peace of mind and known salary impact that GMGM has now. He may be wrong on this one, but this gives him a bit more certainty going to some challenging signing this year (30, 1, 52, 21, 28?)
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
Poti’s injury in last year’s playoffs was a big deal, no one seems to remember this
"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"
You don’t think the Capitals tested Poti eight ways from Sunday both on and off the ice?
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
Leading the team in ice time on the PK is a pretty positive contribution to the PK, in my book. In the very least, it shows that the coaching staff trusts you more than the other defensemen in penalty killing situations.
I think a lot of the angst directed at Poti on these pages is a direct result of him being the Capitals’ best PK defenseman, which is not something that a player, who throughout his career has been known as an offensive defenseman, should be.
One further thing that I’d like to point out about Poti: he led the Caps in SHTOI/G by nearly a minute over Jeff Schultz. In the same way that Mike Green is the go-to guy who’s out for the entire powerplay, Poti is the guy who ends up out there for a huge portion of the penalty kill. And in the same way that a number of us are clamoring for Mike Green to get a break on the powerplay, we could hope that we’d see a much more effective Tom Poti if his minutes were reduced.
I think a lot of the angst directed at Poti on these pages is a direct result of him being the Capitals’ best PK defenseman
Don’t confuse “played the most” with “best.”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Sep 21, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, that’s fair. To rephrase, I think a lot of the angst directed at Poti on these pages is a direct result of him having the most ice time on the Caps’ PK. But, truth be told, I think he’d start to look a lot better, even statistically, if his PK time went down and one or two other defensemen picked up some of the slack.
One last point: if you look on Behind the Net at the SHTOI/G for the top defensemen on the top 10 penalty-kills last year (STL, BUF, BOS, CHI, SJS, PHX, NYR, OTT, PIT, and DET) you’ll notice that none of them have one guy who leads the PK time by 50 seconds/game. The PK time is divided much more evenly.
Then again, one could also (with but a hint of snark) argue that Poti leads the team, far and away, in SHTOI/G because he can’t clear the puck and get off for a change.
One, what will be be like in ‘11 – 12 and ’12 – ’13? No one knows, but I sure don’t think it’s going to be better than the ‘09 – ’10 version we saw. Further to this point, I’ll point out that Steckel did not look marginal when he signed his extension, but he sure does now.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Sure he did. Some folks just expected him to keep up his playoff-level performance for the rest of his career for some reason.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
And some people expect Poti to keep up his last playoff-level performance for the rest of his career for some reason, it seems.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Sep 21, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Or some people just aren’t as harsh on his regular season play as others.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Well, given that some people seem to be fine with his regular season penalty killing, I’d certainly agree that some are harsher than others in evaluating his 2009-10 season.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I’m pretty sure most of us are not fine with his regular season penalty killing. I also think many of us know that it’s just one facet of the game and there are other guys who can take on that role, and that Poti is – as you’ve discussed in the past, I believe – a formidable D-man 5-on-5.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
by Becca H on Sep 21, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Caps’ PK has been dreadful forever. If there was anyone else who could take on that role, they’d have taken on that role.
Poti gets a ton of time on the worst unit on the team and has atrocious numbers to show for it. To be sure, it’s a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg scenario as to whether Poti is dragging the PK down or vice versa, but “just one facet” excuses far too much, IMO, when there are only two facets (PK and ES) to his game.
But yeah, he’s proven to be an excellent ES minutes-eater against tough opposition. So there’s that. And perhaps there’s even reason to believe that with a better PK system, he’d look alright there, too.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Mainly because the sagging-winger system blows..
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Right, but that’s my point – he’s had to be The Guy on the PK because there are no other options. It doesn’t define him as a player, and I think his even strength prowess is much more important – especially with guys like Alzner coming up who could conceivably take on that role on the PK and do a much better job of it.
I’m not forgiving his PK numbers and never have – I just think we make it TOO much of our critiques, especially considering that the Caps were one of the least penalized teams in the League last year.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I also wonder why everyone’s getting SO hung up on this being done now. Who cares?
John Erskine.
Tyler Sloan.
That’s why. Because those extensions were done early and looked bad pretty quickly. Jordan snarked about Poti blowing out his groin, but it’s a legitimate concern given his age, injury history, and the VC ice.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
That’s really the only hangup I could conceive of anybody having about this.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
And really the only one I’ve voiced. I know I’m a known Poti hater, but don’t treat my argument as “Poti Sucks!” because it’s not.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Must say I’m glad nobody is hear spouting that argument.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Poti just makes errors that someone of his “veteran-ness” should not make.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I’ve said that a million times. I’m just not sure how it relates in this discussion unless you think it means he’s overpaid. I think the only way he’s actually overpaid is if he keeps getting groin injuries. And it’s not as much a long shot as people seem to think.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Add David Steckel and Ben Clymer to your list.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
And as I’ve said before, Poti is much better – and much more proven – than any of those guys.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Did you mention much more costly, too?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Erskine and Sloan were known to not be reliable everyday Dmen – those contracts were bad any time they were signed, not just because it was early.
Poti is different. He’s clearly an everyday player, and he’s a lot less easily replaced from outside the system. So it makes more sense to lock up a player who plays a valuable role early rather than depth defensemen.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This.
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
I also wonder why everyone’s getting SO hung up on this being done now.
Because the team doesn’t have a great idea how Carlson and Alzner will work at the NHL level, or what the team’s going to look like, personnel-wise or salary structure-wise, in a year or two years, and they’re making a fairly sizable commitment in spite of that.
I do think you have a point, but I also think it gets stronger when looking at, say, Pittsburgh, who had Fleury + Letang + Malkin + Crosby + Staal signed past the near future and then added two long term deals on top of that, versus the Caps who have AO, Backstrom, and…Schultz?
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The Pens could sign two big FA contracts because all their important young players are signed up and already make significant non-ELC money.
Compare the to the Caps who will have to give another Alzner, Carlson, Varlamov, Neuvirth and Fehr another contract before Poti is scheduled to come off the books and probably dole out some raises.
That said, 2 years at $2.875 isn’t the worst anchor in the world and isn’t going to break any salary structure, even if it turns out that this is an overpayment. (Which no one really knows present moment).
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Less than 2.875 kept the Caps from getting Bill Guerin. And keeping CBo (as if it mattered). It’s not a horrible anchor, but it’s not negligible.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
But if you take Poti and his 2.875 out of the lineup you either A) replace it with someone cheaper and worse (is Guerin gonna help the Caps D?), or B) replace it with someone equally as good and at best as cheap.
Plus, 2.875 for 2 years of someone like Poti is a very tradeable contract if it comes to that. A solid Dman with a short and reasonable term is a pretty attractive asset.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Bill Guerin was the supposed deadline acquisition two years ago. I’m not saying we should get him now, or that he’d help the D, but he would have helped us then and we were less than 2.875 over the cap (and then Guerin went to the Pens and was an instrumental part of them winning the Cup).
I don’t know who would be available that is equally good or cheap. Maybe they get someone who isn’t quite as good, but is cheaper. Or maybe someone that is better and a little more expensive.
His contract is only tradeable if he’s healthy. If he keeps getting the groin injuries and it kills his ability to play like, say, Friesen or Clark (both known to be excellent skaters before the VC experience), then it’s not tradeable.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
My memory is a bit hazy, but weren’t the Caps up at 49 or 50 contracts too?
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see your point, the Caps were so close to the salary cap it wouldn’t have mattered what Poti makes. And so were the Pens, they just decided Guerin was important enough to drop Satan to the minors and be able to make it work.
If the Caps had really wanted to make that move to add Guerin, or keep Bourque, they could have found the way at someone else’s expense.
I would agree with a point you may be getting at, that $2.875 million is a lot for a guy who might be the 5th best d-man on the team for the entirity of his extension.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
My point is that every dollar counts. If Poti is overpaid, then it hurts. By your logic, technically nobody kills a cap because you can always fix it “at someone else’s expense.” But when you commit dollars to guys, whether it is too early or too many, you tie your hands in regards to what moves you can make. If we have Poti on our bottom pair at 2.875 and we need an extra half million to make a move that will put the team over the top, then yeah, Poti’s contract could fairly be said to have gotten in the way.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I think this is a matter of perspective. You view this as having the Caps’ hands tied. I view it as knowing a bit more of our cost structure and have a bit less uncertainty.
“Hands tied” means you don’t like the deal. “Less uncertainty” means I do.
Only time will tell.
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
I agree it’s definitely something that could “get in the way” but it’s not going to prohibit any movement.
It wasn’t that the Caps couldn’t acquire Bill Guerin, it’s more of that they didn’t want to. They could have made simple steps in order to do so.
In that manner, I believe they could do the same if they so wanted to, with or without this Poti deal going forward.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
They couldn’t have made simple steps to do so or they would. The only way to do it was to hurt the team by moving an actual contributor, which they didn’t want to do.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
The similar case would be for them to waive Kozlov, and send him to the minors for the rest of the regular season.
I guess he was a contributor since he was technically playing top 6 minutes, but the Pens dropped a forward from NHL to the minors who was playing 1st line minutes too.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
But it’s a big difference. Satan was only on the top line because you didn’t have any wings, and you were acquiring one. Kozlov was on our top line, not just top 6, and he was at least producing. Not really a good example.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Right. Which was why the money didn’t really stop them, as much as the need for another Top 6 winger wasn’t there.
Therefore, the Caps’ hands weren’t really tied, they just weren’t 100% sure the chemistry would be right (and/or team improved) by acquiring Guerin. Proving my point.
Boom. You just got lawyered.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
No. You just aren’t following. The Caps wanted Guerin so much they had a deal in place with the Isles. They didn’t have the cap space, and couldn’t make it without taking two steps back. Part of the reason they didn’t have the cap space was because they signed guys for too long, or weren’t frugal enough on the deals. It’s not the absolute dollars that you should focus on because no one deal is ever going to bust a cap. We could move AO and get any player we wanted! At the end of the day, when you commit dollars it matters, and it will impact what you can do down the line.
Get back to the books.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
You need more defenders than Carlson, Alzner, and Green going forward, and preferably ones with experience, that know the system, and are relatively inexpensive. Is this not Poti?
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
I think that’s all fair, but it doesn’t really change the fact that there’s enough uncertainty that I’m not sure this signing makes sense for the Caps at this moment.
Right, and you’re not overstating the fact, so I’m not going to tell you you’re wrong. We’d all be having this same discussion about most of the non-elite Caps if they were given a contract a year before they were scheduled to go UFA.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
I’m not sure here. If you look at the list of Caps that are UFA next summer:
28, 21, 22, 14, 10, 15, 4 — assuming CapGeek is accurate.
“Non-elite” would presumably include everyone except 28. Are you saying that we should attempt to resign any of the others now? I could make an argument for 21, 22 and 10.
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
I’d be ok locking up Laich long-term if he wanted to take a similar discount. I get the feeling that if he gets lots of PP time this year, he could come close to 30 goals and then he’ll get stupid UFA offers.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
How would you feel about the signing Laich now, at a price that you define as “reasonable?”
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
2.875 for 4 years.
He’ll probably get 3 though, and I think he could get $3.5 on the open market if he cracks 30.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
That’s too much, I think. I want more ES production.
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s the market.
Look at a player like Brenden Morrow. He makes $4.1m. I love me some Brenden Morrow, but he really had one great offensive year where he went off on the PP. That’s the one time he’s broken 30g.
Laich isn’t quite the player Morrow is, but he has similar leadership intangibles, and the putative ability to play center.
Given the market, $2.875-3m would be a steal for Laich.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I think Morrow has better leadership qualities, better defensive qualities, and better offensive qualities. I don’t think Laich is a C no matter what anyone says, and if he sniffs Morrow money we better run.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I don’t like it. I think it’s about $500k too high for a guy I see as ideally a third liner playing 2nd line since Fehr for some reason does not. If top end guys are getting well over league average (I guess that’s around $2.5 million right now) then someone has to bring up the rear with under-average deals.
In about 3 years I’m guessing Kuznetsov will be on the roster as an ELC, and the others I’m much more uncertain about. Hence it’s even more important to have cheaper contracts.
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
don’t like it. I think it’s about $500k too high
Not to sound like a dick, but it really doesn’t matter what you “like,” it matters what the market will bear. I don’t like the fact that a new Cervelo R3SL costs $5300, but it does, because that’s what the market will bear.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
What about putting an ELC guy in 3rd line soft minutes and spending the remaining $2 million to upgrade elsewhere?
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Could be one of several guys, depending on who else stays and goes. In the next couple years Mackan, Kuznetsov, maybe Eakin, MP (who won’t be ELC but won’t be much more), and maybe someone not currently on the radar could do it.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I agree.
You and I think less than $3M would be a good deal for Laich, and you have assessed, even subconsciously, that $3M values the upside and the downside and that it is a good signing given other options.
This highlights the single discussion point here: Did we get good value from signing Poti? Such a question takes into consideration the size and length of the contract, the risks and the opportunity cost. This is far from a black/white issue, and we have a tendency here to try to make things black and white.
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
I wish he wouldn’t get that PPTOI though.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Why? Because you think there’s someone better suited for it, or because you don’t want his point totals inflated, thus making him more expensive?
It’s an approach they use to create contracts, so what’s wrong with it being used to grade contracts?
Who's your Padre?
Girardi, Hjalmarsson, Mitchell, Coburn, and Quincy, although that list is built on my expectations for 2010-11, rather than 2009-10 performance, and I’m weighting defense more highly than offense (skewing towards the Caps’ needs).
I’d add Lydman to the “better than Poti” group. Tallinder is about a push. Wis and Leopold are the only two guys I really wouldn’t want in lieu of Poti.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
It’s an interesting list for Poti’s agent to use as comparables.
It’s not relevant at all when thinking about the Capitals’ alternatives come next June. These guys are only available via trade.
A better list, which I don’t have, would be D’s that are UFA come next June that we can get for 3 and 2.75. I suspect that list is very short..
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
But we don’t know. We don’t know what will be available for trade at what price, or what will be available on the FA market. One year ago today, would you have predicted the goalie FA market falling out like it did? Nabokov being “forced” to the KHL and Turco taking a bargain basement deal?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Yeah, since the year before guys like Marty Biron and Manny Fernandez could barely or could not get jobs.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Sure. Those guys are in the same class as Nabokov or Turco.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I’d say they’re not much worse.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
I would have to disagree on this.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree. We don’t know what we don’t know.
But, given what we do know, I think it’s a good deal and I’m comfortable with the timing.
Preponderance of evidence counselor. :-)
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
This was not a list to suggest what was available, but to show the FA prices for comparable Dmen. Go back the past few years and look at the Dmen who make $3-3.5 mil in the summer and I don’t think you’ll find to many guys with a much better value than Poti’s new deal.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s true – in a vacuum I think Poti’s deal is a solid one. But is it good for the Caps? That I’m not so sure of.
And my main point wasn’t to compare Poti specifically to those guys, it’s to look at what it would cost to get a Poti-caliber replacement. I think regardless of what happens this season the Caps are better off having a solid veteran Dman like Poti for depth on the 3rd pairing or to play in the top-4 reliable if the young guys don’t pan out as expected. Since they need Poti or a similar replacement anyway (IMO) I think this is a good deal because they got it done for cheaper than they would have if they waited till next summer.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t take Hjalmarsson over Poti for this year. He was protected in a stacked Hawks D and still looked like a liability at times. Coburn could be better if he gets back to 2008 form, but last year he definitely regressed. Quincey I don’t watch all that often, but isn’t he more of an offensive guy? Girardi may be better but I think they are pretty equal (and Poti doesn’t get to play with Marc Staal and in front of Lundqvist). Mitchell is the best of that group, but also makes the most.
But all of these guys and Poti are all at a similar level, yet Poti is the only one making under $3 mil. It was just a means to demonstrate that I don’t think the Caps are going to find an upgrade in free agency for less money.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Pott’s not under three million yet, don’t forget that. If we’re comparing the 2010-11 version of these guys with the 2012-13 version of Poti, I don’t think it’s all that close.
It’s possible, but all those guys are either in their 30s locked up through 2012-13 or are young and due for new raises in the next couple of years. So Poti isn’t the only one whose regression matters.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
He was in the ‘Hawks’ top 4. That’s not a ton of protection. He looked like a liability sometimes, but so does Poti. At least Hjalmar can say he was a rookie making rookie mistakes. Which guy is likely to get better this season?
Quincey gets billed as an offensive guy but I think he’s solid all around. He took big minutes for COL last year in all situations, at least early in the season. Maybe it’s me, but I have a bit of a crush on Quincey.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Hjalmarsson was more protected by the system/teammates, not the minutes. Sure, he’s in the top-4 but he’s playing with a much better partner and with great defensive forwards on the ice. It’s a pretty sheltered way to come into the league.
As I said, I don’t watch Quincey much so I can’t speak much to how he compares to Poti.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Hjalmar played with Campbell, a known defensive liability. Offensively Hjalmar didn’t have to do much, but I’m sure he’s a big part of the reason Campbell’s numbers looked as good as they did. Sure, CHI had great defensive forwards, they were a great team and won the Cup. I just tend to think that Hjalmar was part of the reason they were able to win, not a passenger for the ride. I have a hard time thinking CHI would have been as great as they were if they had a passenger at the 4D spot. It’s telling that when faced with the choice of losing Hjalmar or Niemi CHI chose to keep Hjalmar.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I didn’t say Hjalmarsson is a passenger. Despite your feelings about Poti, saying someone is not better than Poti is not saying they are terrible. But I’m not sold on him being better than Poti based on one good season playing for a stacked team. Campbell makes his mistakes, but also does a whole lot to move the puck out of danger and keep the puck in the other team’s zone. I’ll take that over having to cover for the Erskine/Juice/Shamo/expendable 6-7 D du jour while Flash and Semin are coasting back into position.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
This whole thread isn’t about me hating on Poti. The whole time my only complaint has been the timing. Hjalmar is at least a good PK option as well. I also think it’s silly to ignore the massive upside Hjalmar has compared to Poti in any sort of comparison between the two.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Quincey started out like a house on fire, but cooled considerably with the rest of the Avs as the season wore on.
Still, he’s probably better than Poti, but he also makes more ($3.125m).
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
How many of those guys a) don’t play the PP and b) are worse on the PK than Poti?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
One could argue that Poti ought to play on the PP..
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
One could argue that David Steckel ought to play on the PP too – doesn’t make it a good argument.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Sep 21, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You don’t think giving Poti some PP time to give Green a rest is a good idea?
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Carlson will get some PP time!
I have a twitter.
Not another Capitals blog!
"Victory is sweetest when you've known defeat"
I’d be thrilled if you’re right.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Well if he’s in the NHL, after the offensive season he had in the AHL, I don’t see how he’s not ready for PP duty. And certainly he will be by next year, when the contract at issue actually kicks in. Playing PP is probably the easiest thing for a young offensive D so I don’t see how Carlson would be NHL-ready but not PP-ready.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
We hope!
I have a twitter.
Not another Capitals blog!
"Victory is sweetest when you've known defeat"
I think resting Green is a good idea, I don’t think Poti should be the guy to get the ice. Especially now that we have Carlson. Maybe last season Poti could have gotten more, but even then I might have taken BMo on the point over Poti.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
But isn’t that WHY we brought Poti to DC? Not to say he’s proven that to be the case, but I’d rather have Poti on the shorthanded 2-on-1 than BMo, OV or Green for that matter..
It’s why they brought him here, but the rise of Green has caused his role to change, is what I’m thinking.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
And he’s likely never to get a sniff of PP, again, if Carlson is as good as we think and hope he is.
by DrinkingPartner on Sep 21, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
understood, but can you really take an offensive D-man (which was his role before) and change him to a defensive D-man just by telling him to stay home? it sorta resembles the Mike Green conundrum doesn’t it?
Looks like that’s what they did, and they like him enough to keep him around.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Yeah, dunno what’s the deal with that.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
The deal is that there’s no one else. Who would you have put out there for the bulk of the time besides Poti? Green was decent on the PK but he already logs so much time – particularly on the PP – that he can’t do it. Schultz’s PK minutes are almost as high. So who does it? Erskine? Jurcina? Morrisonn?
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Perhaps that changes some this year
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m a big agreer with you on most things Poti; I was just trying to get out of the same discussion that’s been had three or more times in this post, heh.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Tyler Sloan should play the point because his handsomeness to height ratio is excellent!!!1
I have a twitter.
Not another Capitals blog!
"Victory is sweetest when you've known defeat"
I don’t fully grasp the use of the somewhat tool-ish “strawman argument” phrase, but using Steckel as a comp here seems to be one. Jordan’s not making a bad point – Poti was essentially a power play quarterback when we signed him, was he not? Not that the Caps have to use him that way but it’s not ridiculous to argue that he could be used on the PP to give Green a rest.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Becca..
Becca.. Haters gon’ hate.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Poti was a PP guy before he came here, and he was also known as not a particularly good defender. His offensive game has gone off a cliff since he got here (despite the talent around him) and his defensive game has gotten better. I don’t think it’s really accurate to compare him to the NY version of Poti. I don’t see how you could look at his offensive performance during his time here and not be disappointed, especially if you thought you were getting the offensively potent Poti that NY fans grew to know and hate.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
So you don’t think it’s accurate to compare him to the NY version but then you’re disappointed that his offense suffered while his defense improved? Correct me if I’m wrong…but that’s a good thing for this team, no? It’s not like we need him to score.
Plus if you look back over his career his points/game has remained steady, his +/- has drastically improved (obviously helped by playing on a better team, of course), and his goal-scoring has gone down only because his PP time has gone down. Half of his goals in the four years before coming here came on the power play. Since then? 2 of 9, and both of those came last season.
We’ve got guys who can score. I prefer that he plays defense, which he’s proven to be pretty decent at doing.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I didn’t say I’m necessarily disappointed in the change. I’m disappointed that his offense has become so inept, I’m happy that he’s learned how to play solid D at ES. I’d prefer that he remember how to play with the puck and learn how to play D, but oh well. What I object to is your use of his NY years as evidence that he can still be a PP guy. If I used his defensive lapses in NY as evidence that he can’t play D you would rightfully point to his recent developments as a defensive player. You have to also consider his recent offensive erosions. That’s my point. He’s not the same guy as in NY.
And his points should have gone up just because he played ES with some of the best offensive players in the game. They haven’t. You want to point at the decreased PPTOI, which is fair, but he also hasn’t done much to help our offensive weapons become more dangerous.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Could the team be asking him to focus on being defense-first?
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
They could. Certainly sounds like something BB would do…
Snark aside, I hope they are asking him to play D. My point is that with the Fs on this team just making good breakout passes and smart plays at the point should get you a bushel of points. Those are the things that he used to be known for and aren’t things that should logically disappear from a player’s game. I’m not so concerned about his goals dropping off. I’m more curious as to why he isn’t racking up assists.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I think he looks great when he does activate, he’s probably just being told not to do it so much, especially when he’s paired up with the likes of Sloanskine.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
You don’t need to “activate” necessarily. You can get assists from smart play with the puck anywhere on the ice with the guys he plays with. He doesn’t have to be all up in the rush, but if he makes nice plays at the point or on a neutral zone regroup then he’d be getting a lot of points.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Right, but if he’s being used in a defensive role, he’s probably playing behind the defensive forward lines.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Not really. BB doesn’t really match, and based on the nature of it (3 D pairs, 4 O lines- 3 of which are offensive by nature) he had to play plenty of minutes with scorers on the ice.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Possible. Is there a thing that shows a breakdown of who a guys skates with?
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
No one above 15%, Juice, Shamo, and Erskine all above 10%.
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I don’t like any of those guys as a defensive partner for a guy that’s going to rush the puck.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Right, but I keep saying, and you haven’t acknowledged, that rushing the puck isn’t the only way to create offense. I’m not asking him to be Mike Green-lite (fat joke!), I’m asking where those offensive skills went. He wasn’t just getting points in EDM/NY from rushing. He would make great headman passes and smart plays at the point. Where has that gone?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Yes, but we didn’t get the numbers on which forwards he plays with, which would be the telling ones for this line of inquiry.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
For 5-on-5, Time on Ice has numbers (raw, not percentages), but will take a while to load.
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Like I said right below, he’s doubled his ES points production since 05-06, getting an extra minute per game overall TOI but 2 fewer minutes on the PP.
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
And also on a much, much more potent offense.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Maybe not in total goals scored but I don’t think it’s necessarily linear.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Even if it’s not, he hasn’t regressed in raw numbers at ES despite, probably, getting tougher matchups, possibly weaker teammates (on average, since BB tends not to match forwards and D), and getting older.
I don’t think you can really make a good case that he’s gotten much worse. It’s more like he hasn’t been given a chance. His role is a shutdown D (in BB’s sense), not a puck-moving offensively-involved D. And he still puts up decent offensive numbers.
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Poti ES points, 05-06 to 09-10. I rounded to the nearest half minute.
9—he was the Rangers’ 3D by TOI, getting ~20 mins a game, 3 each on PK and PP
11—he was the Isles’ 1D, getting 24:30 per game and 4:30 on each of PP and PK
21—as the Caps’ 2D, 23:30 a night, 2:30 PP, 4 PK
10—Caps’ 2D, 21 per night. 1:30 PP, 4:30 PK. 52 GP, 82-game pace of 17.
18—Caps’ 2D, 21:30 a night. 1 min PP, 3:30 PK
That looks like improvement to me.
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Well, I wasn’t really saying he SHOULD be a power play guy here – because we’ve got a guy (or guys) who can fill that role. I’m just saying it’s not out of the realm of possibility to say he could, because he was once a power play guy – and not just in NY, if I’m remembering right he played that role in Edmonton, too.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
And I’m saying you are trying to form a composite of Poti to make him as attractive as possible by taking halves from two different Potis. He could also bring back his D from EDM/NY and we’d be pretty pissed. I’m basing my expectations on what he’s done in DC. In DC he’s been good at ESD, not very good offensively in any capacity, and terrible on the PK. That’s what I expect going forward.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
No…what I’m saying is that his offense has remained consistent with the role he’s given, and that it’s not ridiculous for someone to suggest he COULD play the PP (although I don’t expect him to do so nor would I particularly advocate that). And his PK is awful, yes. In a more limited PK role, though, it might not be – he was the go-to guy shorthanded last year because there were no other options, I have to believe Alzner takes over a good chunk of that ice time.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I think it is pretty ridiculous to think he could play the PP in any way that would be acceptable to us given what he’s shown offensively in DC.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I don’t think it’s that ridiculous. He could sit back there and just be a puck-mover that’s ready to split against offensive-PKing teams like Philly.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Assuming he has adequate puck-moving skills at this point (which is no safe assumption, IMO), without a viable shot threat from the point, the PP is garbage, and Poti is not a viable shot threat from the point.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Right, but you usually have at least 2 guys along the point on the PP, so he doesn’t need to be that shot.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
When it was he and Pothier, the PP was revolting.
Give him the last 45 seconds with Carlson? Sure. Why not. But don’t expect magic.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Over that same time Backstrom came to the PP, Green emerged, Boudreau took over, and Ovechkin became the NHL’s best player. Can’t just point to Poti there, I think.
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m not convinced. As it stands right now, sure. But I’m certain a PP icing AO, Backstrom, Laich/Knuble/Fehr, and a couple of other players can work something out, especially under a coach that can work the PP.
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I think a team like PHI would eat him alive. I don’t think his positioning is very sharp, nor is his puck play.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
But are you ready to hand those keys to the youngsters? Yes, you are, but you’re what’s known as an optimist.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
by jordanDC on Sep 21, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’m the guy arguing that Poti might blow a groin and be worthless and I’m the optimist? I put the fork in the team early last season and I’m the optimist? Sometimes I guess I am, sometimes I’m not. More accurately, I just believe what I believe.
And yeah, I’m ready to hand the PP2 keys to Carlson over Poti.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I was joking; you are of course a notorious curmudgeon.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
The Caps have also built their entire PP since Poti came around a right-hand shooting D. The only lefty spot it seems is one down low and Backstrom on the half wall. You remember in 2008-2009 when Green was hurt and the Caps tried to run Green’s backdoor play with Poti (I’m thinking specifically against Minny) and the pass was off? I don’t doubt that given the chance to be the PP QB he could do it (well, Backstrom would be). But asking him to basically be Green #2 as he is now is not going to get good results on the whole.
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair…Poti was getting 1 min of PPTOI/gm. So he was getting a little bit, and was super efficient (though just go back 1 year and he falls way down).
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
To B, not many.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 21, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep, slippage on my part.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 21, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Keep it relevant yo.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 21, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you just saying this for your car’s benefit Becca?
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Sep 21, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
YAY!!!!!!!!! This makes me (and probably only about 3 other people) so ridiculous happy
late to the party, but I’m happy with you! I assume you handled the throwing of weagle-shaped confetti just fine on your own? 9not that I would expect otherwise from you)
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
I’m with Becca.
I think this is a good move. It secures a solid, workmanlike defenseman for the next three seasons.
More importantly, however, it gives GMGM some certainty of cost as he endeavors to resign Semin, Alzner, & Laich this off season, and Carlson and Green the next.
I think it’s a smart move.
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
And I forgot the two goaltenders, both of whom are RFA’s at the end of this season.
For those of you that disagree, who do you think you can get instead for that amount of money?
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
Who knows. I just know that GMGM has extended two other D early recently and neither looked good within even 6 months of the signing. I just don’t know why it had to happen now. It’s not like Poti was going to be a hot commodity on the FA market, there was no need to sign him before this season even started, and his body has taken a heavy beating the last couple years so we don’t know what kind of shape he’ll be in when this extension comes in.
To be clear, I don’t hate it, it’s a decent number. I just don’t know why it had to be now. We have to re-sign Green, Alzner, and Carlson before Poti’s deal is up. Same for the goalies. Maybe you say Poti’s deal isn’t going to make or break the cap structure, but as Caps fans we’ve seen far smaller dollar figures get in the way of improving the team/keeping players over the last couple years.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Andy Sutton is making over $2 million over the next two season, partially (or mainly) due to a lack of UFA D options this season.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Thats over $2 million per season for the next two.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
And Andy Sutton was signed THIS summer to a contract for THIS season and next.
Tom Poti was signed THIS summer to a contract for NEXT season and the following one.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I’m inclined to agree, but I admit I’m shocked at how little of a pay cut he’s taking.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Well hes currently at 3.5, he could be worth more on the FA. Judging by the market of this last season of subpar d-men making as much as him, for his skillset and experience, could range him, possibly, 4+ mil.
So he’s possibly taking a cut of 1 mil.
Bruce Boudreau when asked about Brooks Laich's return to the lineup, he said: "He just adds another dimension to our team. If it was puzzle, he just fits that thing. He completes us."
Brooks Laich completing everything from teams to tires and everything in between.
Stop ghost stalking me on Twitter.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 21, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Me?
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
Yeah (I keed). Me, two minutes before this to ChrisB:
Compared to the UFA D next year, seems (on the surface) like a money smart deal vis a vis Green and Alzner next contracts.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 21, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Seeing as I didn’t follow you until 10 seconds ago, would have been difficult.
Perhaps it was just 2 smart people saying the same thing?
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
I’m not smart, just sober (for the moment). But fair enough.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 21, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ll go on record and say that I feel “luke warm” about this.
"I am ready for his provocations"
by PaintDrinkingPete on Sep 21, 2010 2:22 PM EDT reply actions
I’m with you. I thought he would get resigned for 1-2 yrs at $2.5 mil at most.
If you want to survive out here, you've got to know where your towel is.
by ns on Sep 21, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Caps Extend Poti
Now he’s 6’7"
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Sep 21, 2010 2:23 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
But his stick can’t get any longer, correct?
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought Poti really elevated his game in the playoffs. He was a 9 in the 6 games he played in the playoffs last year playing 20 minutes per game… I can get behind that.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
sorry +9
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Sep 21, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I dunno…his PDO was north of 109%, off the top of my head. Huge luck component there—whether it’s hot playoff Poti or just MTL not getting it done I don’t know. I did think he played really well in the couple of games before his injury.
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is more than I can say for a few other guys getting six-figure paychecks in that locker room.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Sep 21, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s a Mass native who can mentor our other (young) Mass native. Plus he a Yankee fan. I think I’m ok with this. Not super excited, not pissed.
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And more seriously, I don’t mind this at all. He’s a little more expensive than I think he should have been, but he’s a good 3-4 fill-in if necessary, and I’d sure as hell rather have him at 5 than Erskine or Sloan. Plus, it’s cost certainty for another team, if someone decides they want him.
by DrinkingPartner on Sep 21, 2010 2:25 PM EDT reply actions
He’s a little more expensive than I think he should have been
You know what’s funny? I find myself saying that about guys more and more – I think the market right now is just so weird that everyone’s either getting slightly (or majorly) overpaid or slightly (or majorly) underpaid. Looking at what guys of similar skillsets were getting this summer I think the price is just about right.
But yes, agree w/ the rest.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Honestly, I really only meant that I thought 2.5 would have been perfect instead of 2.75 :-P. It’s just that “closer-to-3m” number that makes it seem more valuable than it is and messes with the perception. And it sounds like GMGM might have been offering 3, as it is. I like the signing.
by DrinkingPartner on Sep 21, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Scotty Hockey just died a little inside.
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No he didn’t. He’s so happy that there is no chance he’ll be back on the Rags for at least 3 years.
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“Glen, listen, I have this guy, I think he’d be perfect for your blueline…..yeah, and he’s signed through 2013!”
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I guess I’m missing something. To me it sounds like the Caps just committed (why now?) nearly $3m for two more years to a guy who is a 5/6D (if everything goes according to plans) that doesn’t play the PP and is bad on the PK.
It’s a decent move given the insurance aspect it provides, but I dunno… seems classic McPhee/Fishman in that it’s taking care of a loyal soldier a littler earlier than need be.
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by J.P. on Sep 21, 2010 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
I do agree that for me the biggest question was “why now?”
"I am ready for his provocations"
by PaintDrinkingPete on Sep 21, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
But why not now? I would again point to stability. GMGM now knows more of his cost in 2012 and 2013. He knew he would need to ink a D any way: either Poti or a replacement. Now he’s done that.
Thus, going into the season, GMGM may be able to sign Laich or Semin or Alzner or one/both of the goaltenders. He could even extend 52 first beyond 2012. Who knows?
I’m a believer in stability and maintaining the same players. Studies show that whether in sports or the corporate world, keeping employees a long time breeds success.
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Why not now, I think, is: John Carlson has not yet played a full NHL season. Why not give him that chance and then see what sort of insurance we actually need.
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by CapitalCentre on Sep 21, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t buy this one. Poti is a different defenseman than RAH should be. We’ll need someone like Poti.
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Its right in the sense of sarge + green. An ODM and a DDM together to cover each other. I don’t think anyone normally plays a ODMx2 outside of the PP. Poti would be best mentoring Alzner in that they are both DDM, but could easily cover for Carlson’s offense.
How dominant they played in the mtl series together could be a more normal scene in that the caps would then be fielding a slightly weaker 52/55 combo.
Bruce Boudreau when asked about Brooks Laich's return to the lineup, he said: "He just adds another dimension to our team. If it was puzzle, he just fits that thing. He completes us."
Brooks Laich completing everything from teams to tires and everything in between.
Also in the same way Carlznerson play well together is that they both cover each other’s weaknesses in a Offensive D-man and Defensive D-man combination.
Alzner may benefit more from playing a 2 DDM pairing to further refine his D experience, than it would to pair him and Poti together.
Bruce Boudreau when asked about Brooks Laich's return to the lineup, he said: "He just adds another dimension to our team. If it was puzzle, he just fits that thing. He completes us."
Brooks Laich completing everything from teams to tires and everything in between.
I think regardless of how well Carlznerson do this year the Caps need a solid veteran presence on the blueline. It’s certainly not unheard of to have young players regress a bit in their 2nd year and I still think experience is needed to help out the youth, even if the youth is really good. Poti fills that role very well and his new contract is likely cheaper than the Caps would have to pay for a similar replacement in free agency.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Getting the contract now might also keep them from having to pay more after the season in the event that the FA D market is bare and Poti would be getting bigger offers from elsewhere—ones that would be too tempting to not leave on the table.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Or in the event that Carlznerson aren’t the immediate studs people think they are and Poti’s resigning becomes more necessary (thus giving Poti more leverage).
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I can’t see much bad in this signing if he stays relatively healthy.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Right, but he might not stay relatively healthy and there’s no reason this deal couldn’t have been done in February or March or April when we would know a lot more about these variables than we know now. You can lay out a scenario in which Poti’s extension would look very good (and I’m not denying that possibility); but I can also lay out a scenario in which it looks pretty bad (most specifically if he gets groin problems again). So it comes back to the timing, not the player, not the dollars.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Right, but McPhee has said that he doesn’t think it’s a good idea to let injury what-ifs steer contract negotiations.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
It’s good business not to let “what-if’s” flavor your decisions. You need to value the “what-if’s” and then examine the money. Without valuing the “what-if” you risk letting emotion make the decision for you.
It seems that GMGM’s perception of the risk is less than some folks here. It may be that simple.
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Also, it probably looks good to other players when a soldier like Poti gets rewarded. Not saying that was a factor—just an added bonus.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
I don’t think it’s an added bonus. I don’t think it’s an added anything. I don’t think any players play for other players’ contracts. They may feel good for Poti and like the guy, but I see it having exactly zero impact on the ice.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Maybe I didn’t say what I meant.. I’m trying to say that maybe it’ll help GMGM in future contract negotiations. It doesn’t do shit on the ice.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Agreed. Treat your employees well and they stay longer for less – in general.
Overpay or underpay and you lose the respect of the other employees. Pay fairly to keep the group together.
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Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
Ah, that makes a little more sense. So you think that when Laich goes in for negotiations it may help GMGM keep the cost down because Laich saw the loyalty extended to Poti?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I do, yes. People fundamentally want to work in a place where they are appreciated.
It’s hard to say how much it’s worth, but it’s worth something. At minimum, it’s worth the fact that the negotiations may not start out adversarial.
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Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
Plus, what if Carlson/Alzner doesn’t look great 2 months from now? Now Poti is a) more valuable because of his role, and b) more valuable to the club, which could lead to his salary being higher.
Plus, he’s not grossly overpaid for a 3/4/5 defenseman, so if they need to move him, someone will be interested.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Sep 21, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I hear that. I had been leaning the same way as J.P., though — this isn’t a bad move. But should it have happened quite this early?
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by CapitalCentre on Sep 21, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
My thinking is that it locks up a veteran D (the only the Caps really have) at a very reasonable price and gives them the time to deal with all the other FAs coming up in the next year.
The Sloskine signings were too early because those guys are so easily replaced for cheap. I’m not convinced that Poti is so easily replaced. He may be pushed to the 5/6 D spot, but he’s still good enough to be a legit 3/4 guy so it’s only an overpayment in terms of role and not talent. And with such a young D corps I think the Caps can afford to slightly overpay for a 3rd pairing guy if he is also providing veteran leadership for the D and very good depth if one of the top 4 faulters/gets injured.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 21, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
His sub-par PK and lack of o-ffense keep him from hitting the stratosphere, salary wise. And I can live with it.
I hope he is paired with Carlson this year – they looked great in the playoffs together.
I don’t mean it as a tj attempt, but a year of Carlznerson paired together might be just as entertaining to watch as Poti and Carlson, perhaps more so, but that’s why they play the games and such.
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by Bald Pollack on Sep 21, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I think talk of pairings is relevant here. Something about the familiarity of the Carlson/Alzner pairing implies that the kids’ don’t have to work as hard to succeed at the top level – not that they would take this promotion for granted. It just seems better for their individual development to bust up that duo.
I think you need to focus on the insurance and stability.
As we sit here, barring a trade, the Caps have four of their top five D inked for 2011-2012: 52, 55, 3, 74. Since 27 is an RFA, you have to assume he’ll sign as well. If Sloan matures and gets better, we have six D under contract for 2011-2012 at a reasonable price, and 4 comes off the books at the end of this year.
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I was with you up until “If Sloan matures and gets better.”
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IF. IF. IF.
I was stretching. Focus on the IF.
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
If Sloan matures and gets better
If he gets any more mature he’ll be qualified to live in a Del Webb community.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
by Carl Putnam on Sep 21, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Awesome.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 21, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Rec’d for teh funnies.
بله ، امضای من است به زبان فارسی
by Steck It Out on Sep 21, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Saving seeing it linked a lot in the thread, I think that going with the UFA D next year, he might have cost a bit more because there wasn’t going to be a lot on the table, so perhaps the thought is keeping a core there, locking Alzner to a longer term deal and seeing how the next Carlson and Green deals are going to go.
That said, the whole “leaving money on the table thing” (as pointed out about) is a little concerning.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 21, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I really don’t think he meant GMGM was offering him more. As I also said above, it sounds more like he decided not to ask for as much, not that he turned down more money. Maybe that’s just me, though.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Or his agent told him he could get more as an UFA after the season.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
I’m not suggesting that he was getting offered more, though it’s entirely possible, especially if Donald Brashear could get raises with this GM. I’m a little more accepting that he wanted to do the discount.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 21, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Cost certainty for another team has got to be part of it. I like him as our 5, but he could play top 4 most other places, and sub-3m doesn’t seem outrageous for a top 4.
by DrinkingPartner on Sep 21, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Haven’t we been worried about the lack of depth on D all offseason? For the price I think this is quite a good signing.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 2:31 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
The lack of depth was for this season, though.
by RCheli on Sep 21, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
But it extends beyond this season. Who realistically do you see being able to fill that role? Obviously there could be options outside the organization but the reality is it’s better to have it internally in case the market doesn’t enable you to make a move. We don’t have a Carlson/Alzner waiting in Hershey to be called up right now and probably won’t for a few more years.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
If Poti wanted to win Cups, he would have wanted to win them next June, too. There is no reason to lock up Poti right now. There is no upside to this contract.
Choking since 1985.
Which, while possibly true, isn’t really relevant to my point here. I don’t really think the timing is as important as others seem to (and honestly if he has a fantastic year it could end up being a great move, which is always the risk in waiting) but that’s not what we’re talking about here. What I was addressing was the question of depth at D. If they don’t re-sign Poti, you’re left w/ Green-Schultz-Carlson-Alzner and…??
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Oh, and there’s plenty of upside. It’s not a horrible contract – you may not love it and it’s not perfect but it’s not a horrible contract.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
It’s relevant because who is to say that next June he is the one best suited to fill that role? Your line of questioning is just fine but why does this have to be done now?
And I disagree. I think this contract is either ‘ok’ or all downside.
Choking since 1985.
Maybe we will play a better PK system and Poti will be better in it.
Boom, Upside.
"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"
He’s going to retire after the first year. We’ll save 125,000 against the cap had we done a 1 year deal. CIRCUMVENTION GRANTED!!!
Choking since 1985.
Or Chris Pronger Talented.
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If he’s not, he can be moved. It’s not a back-breaking contract and he’d be a top 4 guy on a lot of teams.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Well, sure. And we’ll still have a hole to fill, fwiw – now going forward we have 52-55-74-27-3-?? Those other things are still options and will be in the next few years, but it’s better to have just one spot to fill rather than two.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Which is more likely, that Poti has a breakout awesome year or that he regresses like players his age tend to do?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
More likely he stays right about the same…not the level he was at during the small playoff sample but regular season last year. Given that we did not make moves for anyone else this summer, I find it unlikely we’d suddenly be that much more active next summer. I’ll take the evil I know over the evil I don’t.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
You make a trade, you sign a free agent, you see if there maybe is a guy in Hershey or the KHL or the SEL that can do it.
All of which are equally risky and all of which rely on the open market, someone being available in Europe (which also adds the element of that player needing to be able to adjust to the smaller rink), etc. There’s no one in Hershey right now.
And all those options were technically available this year, too. The depth problem is still there, it’s not a bad idea to lock up someone who knows the team, knows the systems, is reliable and consistent, is a veteran presence and is someone who wants to be here.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Come on. It’s not risky to not have a your third-pair defenseman locked in for next season. Teams have that problem all the time.
Hell, what team isn’t looking for a 5/6 guy going into the offseason?
It’s the same level of risk all around, just depends on what risk you want to take.
And Poti’s not a 5/6 guy yet. And on a lot of teams he’s top 4 even if he does slide down in the next season or two.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
On our team there is a good chance he is a top 4. Alzner was a downgrade over Poti in last year’s playoffs.
"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"
Which is why he’s making less money each year.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Right – there’s a risk either way. But giving Poti this contract, at this point, seems like the goal is to avoid a worst case scenario, rather than necessarily make the most efficient use of your resources, which is something the Caps have done a lot of recently, and which hasn’t generally worked out that well.
To be clear, you mean the Caps have done a lot of “avoiding the worst case scenario” rather than using their resources efficiently, correct?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
In terms of who is signed for next year versus cap hits for this year, the Caps would appear now to have about $3.6 million to sign a replacement for Erskine (UFA) and to re-sign Alzner. It doesn’t seem like a bad deal, although I could see the waiting point.
If you've read this far...seek help.
Have to like this signing
We get a dmen that knows our system and loves being a part of this team. Is poti the best dmen…no….but he doesn’t have to be. He needs to be solid to good in all areas. It’s a pretty respectable cal hit concerning in the next few years we have to worry about both young d and goalies. Good move by gmgm!!!
by wldthing20 on Sep 21, 2010 2:44 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I wonder what F&B would have to say about this…
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Sep 21, 2010 2:45 PM EDT reply actions
Probably same as most…would’ve liked for him to be a little cheaper but on the whole we could be worse off than having Poti to fill the 4/5/6 slot as needed for 2 more years.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 2:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well it gives him more time to work on his clearing attempts I guess.
I don’t see why the rush to extend him and the comeback from last year’s injury leaves me a little dicey but that said well, there are worse options. I don’t mind him at 6D but I am sure I will be swearing a lot during games this year when he is on the ice.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
Say what?
He better stay out of the box if we go to overtime in the Playoffs…
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by Capsfan07 on Sep 21, 2010 2:51 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I remember that bad thing he did one time as well.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
by jordanDC on Sep 21, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ha. C’mon, that was an awesome old school pull there! If only we had to go back three seasons to find his last mistake…
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It’s the same as “lol Schultz fell down Rangers won,” which wouldn’t be tolerated.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Agreed. It was a silly comment. Kudos for smaking it down.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Nobody ever remembers that Poti hung Schultz out to dry on that play by making one of his trademark last-3-minutes-of-a-game not-even-close attempt to beat the opposing player to a loose puck in the neutral zone. He basically sprinted out of the D zone as the O came in with the puck.
I took something. I can see things no one else can see... Why're you dressed like that? - Jack Burton
I think the point is that it’s old-ass news and doesn’t really matter as much as some people think at this point in time.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
It’s just interesting that someone would pull an old Schultz blooper in response to an old Poti blooper that just so happened to contain a Poti blooper in it as well.
I took something. I can see things no one else can see... Why're you dressed like that? - Jack Burton
by Icebat on Sep 21, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I’m surprised we haven’t seen the “beat down” on Gomez gif yet…
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by Chaz-Capapalooza on Sep 21, 2010 3:45 PM EDT reply actions
I don't hate this, but I'm not in love with it, either
I’m halfway between Killer_Carlson and JP on this one.
If Poti performs about as he has for the last two years, this contract is a decent value. Poti’s skillset appears to garner $3-4m on the open market.
On the other hand, I’m not getting the timing of this. He’s coming off a major injury and he’s not getting any younger. He’s missed significant time each of the last three years. He doesn’t QB the PP anymore and he’s a horrible penalty-killer, so he’s pretty much a one-trick pony.
Ultimately, I always saw Poti as a bridge to the day when the young guys were ready. Well, they’re ready now. If we’re going to overspend on a “veteran D,” I’d rather we overspend on an elite defenseman, which Poti clearly is not.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
You just said guys like him get $3-4m, but then conclude that he’s overpaid at $2.75?
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
He quickly could become 5D, which means he’s then being overpaid for his role, not necessarily for what he brings to the ice (I hope).
by red army line on Sep 21, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
And assuming Carlzner works out and green/shultz are a solid pair, now we have a vet to play with a less good guy (sloan/erskine) or to help bring up a young non-blue chip guy (whoever that may be 3 years from now, think Godfrey if he learns to play better D).
"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"
I second this. If he’s a 5/6, not playing the PP and not playing the PK, he’s overpaid. Not playing the PK though is probably wishful thinking.
This thread is making a leap of faith that Alzner and Carlson are both panning out. I would guess they will but it is never a sure thing with young D.
"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"
Yeah, but then you can wait until that pans out, which comes back to JP’s comment on timing.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Or you can wait too long and end up paying him more than he’s worth due to the condition of the market, or end up paying the same amount for a guy that’s not as good. I think this is what they’re trying to avoid with this contract.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Yeah, it’s a fine distinction. If he keeps performing like he has been, he represents decent value.
If, however, the emergence of Carlson/Alzner/Schultz/Green relegate him to being a 5/6 D, and his injury woes continue, and his play deteriorates with age, we’ll be overpaying for his “veteran-ness.” In that case, I’d rather overpay for someone like Pronger.
I guess I just know what I’m getting out of Poti, and I want more.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
The only 2 D who played more games than him in the regular season last year were Green and Schultz. His playoff injury was more a freak occurrence than something you would expect to see again. Any player who has had nagging injuries could be said to be “injury prone” but I’d bet on Poti’s health more than I would of say an Alex Semin’s.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Poti has never played all 82 games in a season. He’s only broken 80 once. He has only topped 75 once since the lockout. He has missed at least 11 games every season he’s been a Cap.
He’s injury prone.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Right. At some point regular “freak” injuries aren’t so freakish except in the details. Broke his foot last playoffs, eye this playoffs, with a sprinkling of groin and other assorted random injuries in between.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
And believe me, once you start getting injuries, you start accumulating other ones as you compensate for the first ones.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
You know, I tried to make the argument that some of the FA defensemen were injury-prone because they’d never (or rarely) cracked the 80-game mark – turns out in the post-lockout era it’s pretty remarkable for any D to do so. I don’t think that’s a reason to label Poti as injury-prone or to say this is a bad contract because he’s had injuries.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
by Becca H on Sep 21, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Before last year people might have said Eric Fehr…
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know, to be honest. I think this discussion has been carried out here before but is there such a thing as injury-prone, or do guys just have unlucky patches? And is Poti maybe just unlucky in general? The guy’s allergic to everything, has asthma, almost lost an eye to an errant puck…I don’t know.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Marian Gaborik says that yes, players can be injury prone. Many other examples as well.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Eh. Like I said, I don’t know if it’s that a player is necessarily injury-prone or just has a couple of injuries back-to-back-to-back where most guys have them more spread out over the course of their career.
And of course there are examples that could make the case for players being injury-prone – but it’s a physical game and it involves unknowns like ice surfaces and I’m not inclined to assume anything anymore.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Wrong sport but Bob Sanders is injury prone. It’s not bad luck.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
And now a football(?) reference.. you’re really losing me, here.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
I gave fair warning on it. I couldn’t think of someone who fits the term “injury prone” better than Bob Sanders.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I dunno, Bob Sanders sounds pretty rough-and-tumble to me.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
I dunno…if we’re thinking guys who consistently miss 50% of the season with injuries more than once as “injury prone” (I just made up that stat)…seeing as in 4 of the last 6 years Sanders has played in only 6, 4, 6, and 2 games respectively I’d have to consider him quite injury prone. Knowing he didn’t even make it through a full game this year before being done for the season again really just seals it.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but all I know about the guy is that he’s called Bob Sanders, and that name sounds pretty gruff to me.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Slightly more diesel than “Tom Poti” by chance? ;)
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
All fine, but there isn’t any way to claim getting a puck directly in his eye like he did in Game 6 is something he’ll be compensating for or something that he’ll continue to have. Stuff like that happens to everyone. Knuble broke his finger last year and missed time, and his track record of not being injury prone didn’t save him from that type of fluke injury that occurs from time to time.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m much more concerned about the groin stuff, personally.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Agreed, but it didn’t seem to bother him too much last year. I see a guy like Erskine or Sloan getting hurt far more often than Poti will seeing far less games. I’m not saying it can’t happen that his groin acts up this year, or in one of the next 2…but there are a lot of guys who have history of injuries and do put it together and recover from them. We gave Fehr 2 more years and he’s probably the biggest example of a guy you could call “injury prone”.
Although even I would admit comparing Fehr’s value when healthy and playing right now to Poti’s isn’t really comparable at all.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Fehr isn’t even close to the top of my “injury prone” list. He had some bad luck but none of them were recurring injuries, which is when my red flags go up. Bad back/hip injury was the one that took most time to heal, then the double shoulders. It’s the groins and knees (or with some players a specific spot like Forsberg’s foot) that bother me.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
The bad back was something he had going for a bit…and backs and groins are the types of things that tend to get hurt over and over. Gordo’s back is always going to be a concern for me because I feel like anytime he takes a hit it could go out again. Maybe it’s just the word “wonky” that gets to me. Should we start calling Poti’s groin “wonky”?
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
The word is just tremendous. All injuries needsmorewonky
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
aaand you lost me on the twitter reference.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Haha no worries. A bad idea I once had. That will remain unrealized hahaha.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I think his contract helps you get the Prongers because you won’t go spend $4mil for Meszaros or whoever.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
No way. With what the other D will be making and the big guns up front, you need a $1mm D as a #6. I’d take a Pronger and Mottau vs Poti and another middling D.
I don’t think Poti is going to be a #6 while he’s a Cap.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
If Poti’s still here in three years, it’s feasible that one of McNeill, Orlov, or, say, Stevenson could displace him at #5.
by DrinkingPartner on Sep 21, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
And Mike Green could leave in free agency. If Game is fun.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
If Game is terrifying, because it’s probably more likely that Green leaves than Poti gets displaced.
by DrinkingPartner on Sep 21, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
If Game is now patent pending. Ha-ha, jerks!
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
If Orlov is our #5 D in 3 years then good for him and good for us but that takes a lot of panning out to do.
"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"
My point (which was I think agreeing with D’Oh) that having more $$$ tied up with a better D than Poti is preferable, and fill the 6 with Orlov or another cheap option. I agree that Poti will likely be no lower than 5 given the dollars we have committed to him and less cash to spend on other options.
Ultimately, I always saw Poti as a bridge to the day when the young guys were ready. Well, they’re ready now.
Although I agree, many might draw the distinction between ‘ready to play’ and ‘ready to prove themselves in the NHL’. The first leaving very little need for an overpayed vet 5/6er, the latter supporting the signing of insurance if Calznerson doesn’t shape up like everyone hopes.
Who's your Padre?
honestly, I think it may be a bit of “If Poti isn’t re-signed, Mike Green is the oldest d-man. Do. Not. Want.”
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
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Obviously but really we could just lure Chelios back if we needed a token old guy ;)
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought we were talking Token Old Guy, not Token Relic From the Paleolithic Age. :)
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
by RedBirdie on Sep 21, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Indeed :)
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know why I find Chelios jokes so funny; I’m older than he is. (I think I am, but you never know.)
"It's always good to have vikings."
you don’t look older than him!
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
Say you didnt sign poti: What if Carlson plays great for the first 50 games and then the grind of the 82 game season gets to him, the adrenaline of the playoffs/world juniors isnt there and he has a middling playoffs. Does that make Poti expendable? That just makes you have another year you are putting off a decision on whether he is top 4 ultimately.
"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"
by MikeyGreen on Sep 21, 2010 4:05 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don’t have an issue with the signing per se. Poti is a solid dman for what he is. I think the two questions that stick out for me are 1) Is his skill set worth that cap hit for the next two years and 2) Does the cap hit fit for a projected #5 Dman, whether this year or next?
by Hirethecharacter on Sep 21, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it does when Jeff Schultz’s contract is so manageable.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Agreed from the standpoint of our team, but what about from a league view? Does the last year of the contract fit with what other projected 5-6 dmen make for that year? Let’s face it, if Carlzner lives up to expectations and Orlov continues to be develop, Poti could be on the outside looking in really fast.
by Hirethecharacter on Sep 21, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Assuming all of them will work out in the fastest amount of time possible is just as bad as assuming Poti’s injury concerns will definitely or definitely not creep up again. You just don’t know. It’s not a bad contract as it stands right now, and in my mind has a lot more going for it as a safety next that some of those guys don’t work out right away. That and given we’ve all been pointing out the lack of veteran depth on our backline now I’ll take the risk of him blowing out his groin.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
When did Orlov suddenly become a top 5 D man in the NHL?
"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"
When we started playing If Game.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
When did I say he was? He may never be.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
After reviewing all the points here, I’ve come to a very simple conclusion:
This audience is desperately ready for some real hockey!!
Nearly 400 comments about a two-year salary extension for our current 4/5 defenseman?!
Somewhere in Massachusetts, Mrs. Poti is smiling that we care this much about her son.
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
I was about to post similar. I’m happy to be talking shit that matters again, but I’d love a friggin game recap right about now.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
are we getting a game recap tonight? Because that would be indescribably awesome.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
I don’t know! We’ll see…I was thinking about that earlier, so maybe :) If the boss-man says so, of course.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
don’t let the man keep you down!
no, really, a recap would be greatly appreciated, from those of us who unfortunately have to work tonight.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
Oh. Duh, that’s right. It’s tomorrow night – RB, you working tomorrow night?
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
no, but have previous commitments :( aka, watching the Nats lose, AGAIN.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
Ah, yes. Faily!Nats. At any rate the same thing applies, I’ll see if the guys are on board and maybe we can do something in the way of a recap.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
looong story, but I was at the game for the first 3 innings last night and Livo was pitching like a beast. I leave and it went right to hell. So, maybe if I stay for the whole game tomorrow…..
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
This. We’re all so starved for news this signing has made everyone come out of the woodwork. I was reading the site on my phone at work before I got off just to follow the clusterfutch.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t help that there are a few deviations into, I dunno, God knows what.
Stay on topic folks.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 21, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Guilty as charged.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
No worries brother, more a blanket statement than anything.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 21, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Do the Epi-Pens and Benadryl count against the cap?
Anyway, this is a good signing. He definitely would have gotten between 500K and 1M more per year somewhere else. The man saw the market, and what was going on here, took a pay cut and decided to stay and win multiple Cups here. Here’s hoping he made the right choice and will help in that cause.
For the money he’s getting next year and the year after, you could do worse for a top 5 defenseman (which he is on almost every team in the league.)
Amusing thought (well to everyone other than Glen Sather), Wade Redden will make more this season than Poti will for the length of the contract. Heh. For Poti’s cap hit, I’d take Poti over Redden in a heartbeat.
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
Who do we have if he left after this year, assuming we continue the current policy of not adding anyone new?
Green- Schultz
Carlson- Alzner
Sloan-Erskine
Makes sense in that regard.
That is honestly painful to look at. But I think we all were assuming there would be a move made at some point.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I think extending guys his age is not a smart thing to do, especially when players can become UFAs a young as 25 now. Why give a guy a deal for his 34 and 35 year seasons when there are likely other opportunities out there.
And, as JP said, why now? If Poti loved DC so much, why not wait until the offseason to re-sign him?
because if Poti or his agent comes to you and says “I want to be in DC” the Caps seem the type of team that rewards that sort of loyalty, just imo. (speaking of which, can the Nats get on this train? WTF is Dunn not signed?!)
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
Because it’s not always a smart business/hockey decision. It’s great that a player wants to stay, but that doesn’t mean you have to sign him.
but like I said, the Caps seem to like to reward “loyalty,” however they define it. I’m not trying to justify it, just trying to explain how GMGM seems to operate.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
How does this opinion jive with what Mirtle said the other day, that the Caps have a reputation for being cold-blooded from a business perspective. Add in that Lou is a mentor for GMGM and Lou is one of the coldest bargainers there is. I don’t think the Caps front office is as sunshine and puppy dogs, but then again, TSlo.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
exactly, Sloan. They can be cold-blooded and ruthless 90% of the time, but there’s been a pattern of rewarding “their guys” for several years now.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
I’m not sure I understand your question. Who has he signed to RFA extensions longer than one season? Most of the core of the team. I think you meant who has he signed to UFA extensions of longer than one year.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
If I’ve read the question right, Steckel (off the top of my head).
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 21, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
plus Sloan, Bradley, Erskine…I’m sure I can think of some more
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
we’re talking extensions only, right? Not signing a UFA like Knuble to a multi-year contract? If so, the three I mentioned, Steckel, and now Poti. In Hershey, Collins got an extension at and NHL payrate, and Aucoin was re-signed to a two-way (although a rather generous 2-way). I’d do some more digging, but I have to go teach.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
Bad writing there.
Who signed a multi-year contract with the Caps who was not an RFA who was currently with the team?
yeah, Clark was another UFA signed to an extension.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
I can’t cry about that one though…we ended up with Chimmer
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on Sep 21, 2010 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m hoping the VC ice quality improves, which would help with groin issues. If nothing else, the VC calendar shows the International Horse Show ending October 31 and the next Caps home game on November 4
Two more years! Two more years!
بله ، امضای من است به زبان فارسی
by Steck It Out on Sep 21, 2010 11:43 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Late to this party but if Poti plays like he did against Montreal for these 2 years I’m ecstatic over this signing, nearly wax ecstatic. Very fair deal for that level of performance, his usual regular season self…not so much of a deal.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
I read most of the comments, and I’m just going to post once down here. I’m glad Poti will be back for a couple more years, due both to how good he was on ES and the fact that he is the only veteran Dman the Caps have to mentor Carlson and Alzner, but I think he’s being overpaid. If Carlson or Alzner don’t end up working out as well as we hope, then Poti might be worth it.
BB, please – cut Poti’s PK time!!!
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
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