Ranking the Capitals: #26
by J.P. on Sep 15, 2010 9:23 PM EDT
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PrintIn an effort to beat the summer doldrums, we're undertaking to rank - with your help - the Washington Capitals (only players under contract will be considered). The criteria is simple: who at this moment is the most valuable player in the organization who hasn't already been ranked? Put another way, if you could only keep one of the remaining players - because of what he brings on the ice or off it, his upside, what he could fetch in trade, and so on - who would it be? Consider age, potential, contract status, organizational depth, etc. - it's your call. And after you vote and defend your selection in the comments, help us out and suggest a name to add to the next poll. [Note: here's a recap of last year's rankings; previous "Ranking the Capitals 2010" posts can be found here.]
Welcome John Erskine to the list and Andrew Joudrey to the poll...
- Alex Ovechkin
- Nicklas Backstrom
- Mike Green
- Alexander Semin
- John Carlson
- Semyon Varlamov
- Jeff Schultz
- Brooks Laich
- Karl Alzner
- Mike Knuble
- Eric Fehr
- Michal Neuvirth
- Tom Poti
- Tomas Fleischmann
- Marcus Johansson
- Jason Chimera
- Matt Bradley
- Mathieu Perreault
- Boyd Gordon
- David Steckel
- Braden Holtby
- Cody Eakin
- Andrew Gordon
- D.J. King
- John Erskine
If this FanPost is written by someone other than one of the blog's editors, the opinions expressed in it do not necessarily reflect those of this blog or SB Nation.
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McNeill. I think he’s the best dman left on this list, and that’s a position the Caps have need of. I could see him playing some games for the Caps this season as an injury replacement.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
I don’t know about seeing playing time.. I think we’d be thrilled if he didn’t have to. I also don’t know about him being the best D left on the list when Sloan is still there. That said, he’s an OFD who probably has more upside than the others on that list, but less than, say, Orlov. After all, if Carlson develops into OFD #2, could someone like McNeill be the #3, and is that something you want? Would you rather have 4 DFD in Poti/Schultz/Alzner/??? It’s hard to say.
Insofar as he allows the experimental phase to go on without a roster move right now, Sloan might have more value than McNeill, but the latter clearly has more upside on the ice. I voted for PMc, but.. it was really close.
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Sloan is AHL quality, so I’d say McNeill is as good or better. That’s not saying anything about how good McNeill is – it’s about how terrible Sloan is. If there is an injury, the Caps would need to either get a free agent dman or one from Hershey – and Hershey doesn’t seem to be stacked there right now. That is just to maintain 7 dmen. I’d be very happy if McNeill didn’t see NHL time this season, but realistically he very well could.
Right now, the 2 best dmen on that list are Sloan and McNeill – I know which I would prefer to have.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
I know this poll is about the present and the future, but putting aside the future for one moment – are you saying that if you had one NHL game to win tomorrow and needed to dress either Sloan or McNeill (and both were healthy), you’d dress McNeill?
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Probably. I’d have to see him some more first, but to me Sloan is a liability most of the time he is on the ice. If McNeill is even marginally ready for the NHL, he’d be an improvement over Sloan.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Good question. I’d like to see them both play during the preseason before answering. My first guess would probably be Sloan, to be honest, since I’ll know what I’m getting. But honestly, I could see it being a coin flip-type decision. It’s hard for me to overlook just how terrible Sloan was at times last year.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I’m with you, though I think you may be overrating where PMac is right now and underrating where Sloan is (though probably not the latter).
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Any of the Kugryshev voters care to make a pitch? =)
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Seriously. Is there some reason people are ranking him here?
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
According to hockeysfuture rankings
Top Prospects
1. Semyon Varlamov, G
2. John Carlson, D
3. Karl Alzner, D
4. Michal Neuvirth, G
5. Mathieu Perreault, C
6. Marcus Johansson, C
7. Francois Bouchard, RW
8. Dmitri Orlov, D
9. Dmitri Kugryshev, RW
10. Cody Eakin, C
11. Braden Holtby, G
12. Jay Beagle, C
13. Anton Gustafsson, C
14. Zach Miskovic, D
I struck out players who have already been voted for.
Of those remaining
7. Francois Bouchard – Prospect Grade: 7.0 C
9. Dmitri Kugryshev – - Prospect Grade: 6.5 C
12. Jay Beagle – - – - – - Prospect Grade: 6.0 D
13. Anton Gustafsson – Prospect Grade: 6.0 D
14. Zach Miskovic — – - Prospect Grade: 6.5 D
XX. Patrick McNeill – - – Prospect Grade: 5.5 C
Maybe you know better than hockey futures, but it seems like Kugryshev and Bouchard are more important than McNeill
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
Better does not mean more important. The Caps have an overabundance of wingers, both on the team and in prospects, and too few dmen. And if they have Gustafsson rated almost as high as Holtby, their rating system has issues.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
hockeysfuture no doubt has issues.
while the caps might have too few prospect defensemen in the system with the promotions of alzner and carlson, you could argue they have an overabundance of young puck-movers under team control—green, carlson and orlov on the way.
putting that aside…at this point in the pool, team needs are less a consideration for me. they’re all longshots to make waves in the NHL. i want the youngest, most dynamic guy, with the best chance of being an impact pro. i’ll admit i only saw a handful of hershey’s games last year, so i’m not the best authority on mcneill, bouchard or the others. but i like what i’ve seen from kugryshev in highlights, i like that he got quality minutes for the russian U18s then the russian U20s, and i like that he potentially fills the redhead quota for the team, clearing the way for flash to be moved and belanger to be signed…..oh, wait, scratch the last one. i also think (hope) that as he matures, the preparation and work ethic will come to help him fulfill his potential. with the little i know about all of these players, i confess i always think about peerless’ pictures of kugryshev from consecutive rookie camps, fair or unfair.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 3:34 AM EDT up reply actions
With McNeill, I’m also looking at this season. At this point, if 1 dman goes down, Sloan will be 6D. If 2 dmen go down, who would fill the spot? It would either be a free agent acquisition or a player from Hershey. If it is a player from Hershey, I’d have to think McNeill is a candidate.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
if 2 defensemen go down, the caps are making a trade the next day.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Nycholat is not a bad regular season stopgap
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 16, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, he’s decent, but they won’t play him more than 9 games I bet. I think D’oh has it right that if we have to fill a spot for 1-2 weeks we may just ride with the guys from HER but if there is any sort of substantial injury we’re going to make a trade.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
No, I think you’re overstating the matter. The Caps had two D-men+ go down in each of the last two years and didn’t make knee-jerk trades. Admittedly, the team was deeper at D back then (with ShaMo, Juice and Pothier), but still, I think a “next day trade” is a bit much. Two years ago, we were dressing Sean Collins and Staffan Kronwall and all sorts of weird guys.
If we lost two D-men (other than Erskine) for a substantial period, then we’d probably make a trade, but if it’s just a week-to-fortnight type injury, I think we’ll see McNeill.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
you could argue they have an overabundance of young puck-movers under team control
(Emphasis added)
Young puck-movers under team control typically fetch good returns on the trade market. If McNeill can keep improving his play or, better yet, show some upside during a cup of coffee, he might be part of a trade to get something we’re short of.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
right, but if the idea is to trade the player, why even mention D as a position without depth?
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
We do lack depth outside of the NHL though. Maybe we’ve got a few too many of one type of defensemen, but I personally think you can never have too many young puck-movers. My point was simply to say that even if you think we’ve got too many guys like McNeill, he still has value if only in trade.
Either way, I think it’s pretty clear that the team is a little weak on D outside of the NHL. Given the fact that Erskine and Poti are both likely gone after next year, and I could see McNeill moving into the 5/6 role while the team goes the FA route to fill Poti’s position with a more traditional “stay-at-home” type.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Team’s a little weak on D inside the NHL as well. And if there is one position you can never have too much of, it’s D. I don’t think McNeill would fetch much in a trade; project players that have no hype rarely do. But I think he could turn into a cheap homegrown 6/7 for a few years. Plus he knows the system.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
McNeill obviously wouldn’t anchor a deal all by himself, but he could be packaged with picks or with another mid-tier prospect to garner something of actual value. He’s not a blue-chip by any means, but if he can stay healthy, I think the buzz around him will pick up.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Maybe if he has a huge year, I just don’t see us getting anything of value for mediocre pieces. You’re going to have to put in something substantial and then you’re at the point where McNeill is more of a throw in. I don’t think hype just creates itself around a guy like McNeill. He’s been under the radar forever so unless he has an offensive explosion in HER I expect that to continue (and I could see him staying under the radar even with a big breakout season).
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
But I think he could turn into a cheap homegrown 6/7 for a few years.
sounds like tyler sloan. if he doesn’t have potential to be a career top 6, why wouldn’t i just vote for TSlo?
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Because I think Ty Sloan is an 8/9.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
(And Sloan is at his peak and we already know it’s not very good.)
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
sure, but you’re envisioning mcneill one day in the future filling the roll currently filled by tyler sloan. i’d rather have the winger with a 1/10 chance (totally pulled out of my ass) of being an impact scorer in the league.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I’m envisioning McNeill as a guy I trust on the ice for extended periods. He may not get a sweater every game but I could see myself not cringing when he does. TSlo may hold the position, but he’s over his head.
I think Kuger is the next Bouchard. Why haven’t you voted Bouchard yet if you want that 1/10 chance at a scorer? Bouchard did more in the Q and has at least competed adequately in the AHL.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
by Rob Parker on Sep 16, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it’s true, at least bouchard was an everyday player in the playoffs for hershey, unlike mcneill. like with all prospects, i’m probably liable to the hype, biased to the guy i haven’t seen yet. i think it comes down to: with kug, i can justify that his head and his work ethic are holding him back, not his talent. and for a 20-year-old that’s something i can live with. bouchard scored 17 fewer regular season points last year than chris bourque in 28 more games? (and that’s not including the playoffs, where bouchard had 10 and bourque/giroux/gordon/auccoin/MP all had 19+.)
his numbers just get lost for me with all the AHL talent in hershey. i’m hoping kug’s numbers jump out, the way i was hoping bouchard’s numbers would jump out when he first arrived.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
McNeill was hurt. I’m pretty sure he was an everyday guy when he was healthy.
If it’s your head and work ethic that’s a pretty big concern to me.
Comparing Bouchard to CBo is a pretty tough comparison considering where they were on the development curve. I agree that Bouchard hasn’t lived up to my hopes, but I don’t think comparing him to CBo is the way to make that case (I’d personally compare him to MP because of similar career paths). I just don’t see Kuger being much, if any, better when he gets to the AHL. I guess Kuger still has the chance to, so that’s valuable. I just don’t have a lot of hope for him.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
If it’s your head and work ethic that’s a pretty big concern to me.
less of a concern for me when he’s in juniors. like you said, he’s yet to show us what he’ll be with the pro clubs.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I just think the head/work ethic is something that is extremely difficult to fix. I guess it’s better than not having skill because that never changes, but work ethic problems are a big red flag with me.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
i’ve matured a lot since i was 20. but i hear you.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
and absolutely, bouchard doesn’t compare favorably to MP either.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
the CBo comparison came more just because i was FLOORED by the difference in scoring averages. almost 20 few points in almost 30 MORE games? i guess more a testament to bourque as an incredible AHL player.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
except that you two disagree about the viability of mcneill getting PT this year. i still say if we’re framing this to emphasize the possibility of playing in 2009-2010 (as opposed to long-term potential), then i’d be voting sloan. mcneill hasn’t reached sloan’s level yet. in the same way that i lean towards kug over bouchard because i’d like to dream that kug can still hit BIG, you’re picking mcneill over sloan because you have hopes he can be something greater. the difference is that while bouchard has “competed adequately” as an AHL player, sloan has competed adequately as the first guy out of the press box on an NHL team.
“steady improvement past three years” (when he missed chunks of the previous two years with injuries) isn’t enough of an argument for me to jump on the mcneill bandwagon.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
After Sloskine, I see McNeill as next on the depth chart. Training camp and the preseason can certainly change that, however.
Just remember that last year, Schultz came out of preseason in the press box while Erskine solidified his position in the top-6. Lots can happen in camp.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I don’t think Sloan has been adequate, not if Bouchard’s AHL performance is the baseline for adequate. Sloan has in general been a liability with a couple bright spots. Bouchard has actually been useful and made the Bears a better team.
I don’t think we disagree on the likelihood of McNeill getting NHL ice this year.
I haven’t framed any of my votes solely on the value to the Caps in the 2010-11 season. The whole time I’ve had at least one eye looking down the road.
McNeill is 5 years younger than Sloan, has better CHL numbers, better AHL numbers, and ~1/5 the ECHL games played. Sloan is at his ceiling, and McNeill isn’t. I don’t know how much better he’ll get, but I bet he becomes better than Sloan. Oh, but he’s shorter.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
the argument is that sloan has been useful as a 7th D. i’m not going to change your mind on that, i guess. i don’t like to see him starting, but he has a role and he was “adequate” in his role.
you’ve switched from echoing me (“exactly”) to lock-stepping with d’oh. no biggie. right now, i’m not imaginging a situation where we’ve lost two defensemen and we haven’t made a trade. we’ll make a trade after we lose the first guy. or we’ll make a trade before we lose either. feel free to grab this comment and link it during the season if we see mcneill, you know i would’ve if it were the other way around.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
You took my use of “adequate” regarding Bouchard and applied it to Sloan. I don’t think their performances are analogous so while in some unrelated sense you could define Sloan as “adequate” he’s not on the same plane as I was using that word regarding Bouchard.
I do agree with you that if a guy goes down for any period of time we’ll just address it via the trade market. I think D’oh made a bit of a subtle distinction when he addressed the amount of time the guy was hurt. A short injury the Caps may just ride out, but a significant injury, one that actually impacts the depth chart, will be addressed via trade. I still agree with both of you.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
My point was simply to say that even if you think we’ve got too many guys like McNeill, he still has value if only in trade.
agree with you here. which is why i went on to say that team needs are less a priority when so many of the remaining pool are unlikely to make a dent in the NHL. (and like Bman below, the reason i voted kugryshev.) but to get to your point above: maybe you’re just much much higher on mcneill than me. the caps traded for kronwall not to be an AHL player, but to fill that exact role of “if we’re in a bind” call-up. then he was gone from the organization. sure, mcneill might get a short ride if we lose both green and carlson, but i expect the caps to have brought in reinforcements before that ever happens, if not the next day.
you’re convinced mcneill isn’t a product of the players around him in hershey? i also think people are colored by his incredible playoffs (only 11 games), when his goal-scoring rate was more than double what it was in the regular season.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m personally just not that high on Kuger, more than I am high on McNeill. I’m basing my view of McNeill on his apparent steady progression over the last 3 years, not the playoffs or anything else. This year will say a lot. He should be top 4 for sure, fighting for top pair in HER. I’d also like to see him get in a couple pre-season games just to see how he stacks up against NHL skaters.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
HF does have it’s issues, but it seems like a half decent starting point for discussions.
At this point, I think better does equal more important. Organization need is not too high on my mind, because trading does happen. We have more F than D, but we can always trade a high F for a D. With that in mind, I think Kugryshev has the biggest upside, so I’m still voting for him. He does need to work on stamina, but that is easier to improve than raw skill.
Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.
I would put McNeill as more important simply because he might have a shot at getting some games in DC – Kugryshev won’t. Kugryshev might be better, but he won’t have an impact on the Caps this season, which McNeill might, depending on how things go.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
If you are looking at impact this year neither Kuger or McNeill is likely to do anything. The only two guys that could end up with more than a cup of coffee in the NHL this season are Beagle and Sloan.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
McNeill could get a shot if multiple dmen go down. I wouldn’t expect it to be long, but I think he has a much better shot at it than Kugryshev (who I think has no shot this season) . He also has a much better shot at being a Cap next season, when some of the dmen go UFA. Even if McNeill comes up, I don’t expect him to have much impact.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
of course kugryshev has no shot this season. if you are going to base their value to the organization on whether one guy might have 2 or 3 games spot duty games (i don’t think he gets any), then you’re missing the point of the exercise.
if you believe like F&B does that mcneill has the potential to be much greater than sloan (i don’t see it), then i buy mcneill over the others on the list.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
sloan is taller, weighs more and is older? mcneill has played on offensively loaded hershey bears teams, and alongside carlson/alzner? sloan’s the kind of guy the caps prefer to call up in a pinch. the way i see it: if the caps lose any of schultz/poti/alzner/erskine, they’d prefer not to call up the puck-mover D. and if they lose green/carlson, they’re making a trade for an NHL caliber player.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
McNeill has shown more offensive ability at every level. He’s six years younger. He’s improved every year as a pro.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
if the caps bring up a bears defenseman in a pinch, i don’t think offensive numbers will matter to the club.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Tell that to Karl Alzner.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
who actually had pretty awesome offensive numbers last year.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Not when you compare him to the guy that got the call up.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
possibly for reasons other than offense.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Boooooooooooooo
mcneill has played on offensively loaded hershey bears teams
So the Bears teams that Sloan was on were what? Not offensively loaded? He wasn’t playing with Mike Green? (Well, actually, he wasn’t all that much because he couldn’t crack the lineup). Both guys played on loaded HER teams that went to back to back finals. You can’t try to take away from McNeill on those grounds.
Right now Sloan is the guy the Caps would call up in a pinch. But right now Sloan is pretty bad and not a good solution. McNeill isn’t a good solution right now, but one day he will be.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
whatever, i don’t disagree with you, but the jury is still out on whether mcneill will make the jump. i’m not interested in sloan’s pt/game numbers in hershey as much as i’m interested in his ability to fill holes in the NHL.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, but if his points in HER and his ability to fill holes in the NHL are both mediocre, then what?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
then he’s on the capitals roster and mcneill is on the hershey roster.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Now I think I’m lost. What exactly are we arguing? I’m not saying that McNeill is above Sloan right now, I’m just saying that McNeill will be better than Sloan in the not-too-distant future.
Sloan is currently the 7, no doubt. But he’s not good at it so I’m not giving him a ton of credit for it. McNeill is younger, has better numbers at all levels, and has fewer (either 1 or 0) ECHL demotions than Sloan has. In terms of value to the organization, I think McNeill is the more valuable player.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I read this entire thing as if tomorrow one had to choose either Sloan or McNeill to play Game 7 as 6D, Natty picks Sloan.
by red army line on Sep 16, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
true, but to add to that: the caps will do whatever it takes to make sure mcneill isn’t in that position. so literally his short-term value is nothing to me.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
the problem i think is that there’s overlap between the arguments you’re putting forth and the arguments that d’oh/timmy are putting forth, and i disagree more with them so i’m bringing it back to the short-term.
but all that said…i haven’t decided whether i’ll be voting for sloan or mcneill first, and if i vote for mcneill it will be solely because sloan should be on a league minimum contract.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
So you think that absent any financial considerations, Sloan is the more valuable player to the organization in terms of what he can or will bring on the ice?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
throw in age, and mcneill looks better. but yes, where we disagree and the reason the debate has continued for so long: i’d rather lose mcneill today (with an eye on the future) than lose sloan today (with an eye on the future), were we not to consider sloan’s contract, which still to this day pisses me off. i’m just not as sold on mcneill as d’ohboy/CP2, and i see more value in sloan than you (considering the current roster and state of affairs with the team, which is more fair consideration for sloan that it is for mcneill).
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I can buy that. If you think McNeill is only going to be the next TSlo, at best, then there’s no reason to value him over TSlo. I can see that the fact that TSlo will play for the Caps this year makes him seem more valuable. But the caps will do whatever it takes to make sure TSlo isn’t playing in the playoffs, and the Caps make the post-season regardless of how TSlo plays in his stints in the lineup. Thus, he’ll have zero impact on our ability to win a Cup.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
interesting. i’m guessing he’s at least on the playoff roster, and might be forced to play if there’s an injury…since there isn’t a carlson or alzner type prospect to be called up. would love it if trades made him the 8th/9th man that you’d like him to be, though. i can see it.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
If there are enough injuries that TSlo plays in the playoffs we are going to be in serious trouble. I think that at the very least they’ll pick up a depth defenseman at the deadline. I think last year showed a lot. They kept TSlo in the NHL all year, let him practice and play, and when push came to shove they called up Alzner cold from the AHL instead of playing TSlo. Don’t be shocked if Juice and his 1 million dollar contract come back to DC next deadline.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
i’d be happy to see juice. i know d’ohboy would be, too. really i’d bet my car that the caps will bring in SOMEBODY. and i hope they bring in two somebodies. but in the organization’s mind, i think sloan and erskine might still be “tied” on the depth chart, which would mean they’re moved from 6/7 to 7/8, and TSlo could theoretically be one injury away.
as always on this site, i find myself defending a player i’m not particularly fond of. gotta love it.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha. I know the feeling. I do agree that TSlo and Erskine are basically tied in the organization’s eyes and that both will play (even barring injury). Erskine will have teams he plays against and TSlo will have teams he plays against. And just like last year I don’t think the organization wants to dress either when it matters.
It’s funny, last year we had too many D, keeping the kids in HER. All season it seemed the organization had a “we’ll figure it out” approach. This season it’s basically the opposite. Not the depth we’d like but still “we’ll figure it out.”
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
i’m still sour corvo didn’t work out. after a day to chew on the trade, a lot of us were happy with that move.
maybe the trade that puts us over will include mcneill, in which case you guys will have the last laugh.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
he arguments that d’oh/timmy are putting forth
What I actually said:
Good question. I’d like to see them both play during the preseason before answering. My first guess would probably be Sloan, to be honest, since I’ll know what I’m getting. But honestly, I could see it being a coin flip-type decision. It’s hard for me to overlook just how terrible Sloan was at times last year
Emphasis added.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
yup and i doubt it’s even a coin flip. i don’t think there’s a question.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
To elaborate:
I think Sloan has the slight advantage in current contribution, however, that advantage is pretty thin and it’s likely getting thinner with every game McNeill plays in Hershey and with every error Sloan makes.
In terms of upside, though, it’s not even close. McNeill could actually be a regular NHL defenseman for a playoff team at some point. Sloan has pretty much maxed out.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
In terms of upside, though, it’s not even close. McNeill could actually be a regular NHL defenseman for a playoff team at some point. Sloan has pretty much maxed out.
Well said D’oh. Precisely why I’ve been voting for PMac in the most recent polls. We are talking current bordferline to barely NHL guys vs guys with potential to be possibly be every day NHL guys. I’ll take the potential in these cases. Higher upside.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
I’m not basing it solely on that, but it is a factor. And not just for this year, but for the next couple. Kugryshev’s problem is the depth the Caps have on wing. McNeill doesn’t have that issue.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
When it comes down to it, I am taking McNeill over Kugryshev because McNeill is one of the higher prospects at the Caps’ weakest position while Kugryshev is one of the higher prospects at their strongest position. The Caps have a number of young wingers – although I do recognize a few could be gone in the next few years. They also have a number of prospects who can play wing. They have almost nothing in terms of defensive prospects though, which raises McNeill’s value to me.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
HF isn’t exactly on point with their rankings. They also have MP above Mackan and have had several other rankings that don’t add up. I’d be shocked if they re-evaluated McNeill in the last 2 years. He may have been a 5.5C at the time he was drafted or shortly after, but at this point he is still developing. I’d easily put McNeill above AnGus, Miskovic, Beagle and Bouchard. Kuger might have a fighting chance. Beagle is the most likely to make the NHL, but he has 4th line upside. Who knows what McNeill will pan out to be, but his HF ranking isn’t dispositive of anything.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Maybe you know better than hockey futures, but it seems like Kugryshev and Bouchard are more important than McNeill
If HF thinks Kugryshev and Bouchard are more important than McNeill (and that’s not what the ranking means, necessarily, FYI), then yes, I do know more than HF.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
for the uninitiated out there, HF’s rankings = basically one contracted guy/gal fan writer for each team. some of them do an extraordinary job, some don’t. major variation from team to team, from year to year.
on a side note, i bet some in the japers’ rink community would score a “0.5 A” like this guy.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
And I don’t think they have a full time Caps writer so the Caps tend to get neglected. Teams that have guys devoted to their coverage are usually more accurate. The Caps current writer is some guy named “Apply Today” so I’m pretty sure we aren’t going to see the best Caps coverage over at HF.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
One problem with that list – it is the “Spring 2010” list, so it is out of date. It is dated 2/28/10, so it is almost 7 months old. A current one should not list Varly, Carlson, Alzner, or Neuvy. And I had to laugh when I saw their rankings for Caps defensive prospects – their top 5 were Carlson, Alzner, Orlov, Finley, and Miskovic. Finley?? Seriously? That site is a joke if they put Finley that high.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
2/28/10 seems more recent because I don’t think they re-evaluate player grades very often.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
The last one before that was August 2009, and before that was May 2009. It seems like they might be due for another one. And I still think their rating system is flawed due to the results.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Based primarily upon the Caps’ dearth of healthy defenders, I went with Sloan here. He and Erskine were close for me in the ranking, and deserve their respective spots on the value fringe for NHL players on our roster, but I can’t discount the fact that Bruce is comfortable alternating the two of them to contend with different types of opponents.
back to cool special
I voted for Kugryshev, but I kind of wish I could have voted for McNeil now. I think right now, D is the pressing issue, but what happens when Semin’s gone, Laich’s contract is up, Flash gets traded or becomes a FA, Fehr’s contract expires… I think as far as trade value + talent goes, Kugryshev is a good card to have in your hand.
Warning: I started watching hockey in 2007. So, yeah. Heh.
That far down the line Mackan, Kuznetsov, maybe Galiev, maybe Eakin, maybe MP, and whoever else we draft will be ready to give us NHL minutes.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
again though….depth means so little at this point in the rankings. as d’ohboy was arguing for mcneill above that he’d have trade value despite the multiple young puck movers, kug will have value—for the caps or in trade—as long as he makes it. we’re really just looking at who has the best chance at making the team in the future, and what kind of line/minutes they’d be able to achieve if they reach their max potential. kind of like HF’s dual grading systems.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
kug will have value—for the caps or in trade—as long as he makes it.
He’ll have less value than a puck-moving defensemen. Look at the ridiculous lengths teams are willing to go to to get puck-moving D.
Furthermore, the history of players like Kug suggests that he’s unlikely to make it. McNeill has a decent professional track record.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I agree with you. I also stand by the rest of the stuff I said above. The guys at this point aren’t very valuable in a trade, they are throw in pieces. I was just addressing the point that down the line we have open F spots that we don’t know who will fill them. We have other guys, someone will fill them. Worrying about the depth 3 years down the line doesn’t make a ton of sense to me.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I’m pretty much squarely in F&B’s corner on this one – Kuger’s stats in the Q mean little or nothing to me, because the Q is a joke defensively. His stats are even less impressive when you compare them to Bouchard’s or Perreault’s at a similar age. Couple that with his lack of conditioning and the fact that he plays a relatively unimportant position and. . . let’s just say I’m not going to run out and buy a Kugryshev jersey any time soon.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
okay, but he was a second round pick that could’ve gone higher. it sounds like you would have invalidated his performances and stats in the Q no matter, due to the league and his position. so then take it back to: 2nd round pick who slipped because he was russian and has yet to show us what he can or can’t do.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he’s dismissing the Q no matter what, I think he’s just saying that for offensive numbers to impress in the Q you have to put up huge points. Kuger hasn’t. Add in the fact that we have two Q scoring champs in the system and both seem to be relative long shots to ever stick with the team and you have to be even less impressed with what Kuger has done.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
but it’s no reason to be unimpressed with what kug has done. he’s done what we could’ve expected out of our 2nd round pick. and now he has his chance.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
i.e., he didn’t fail. and since we’ve agreed that leading the Q in point-scoring isn’t indicative of future success, we can probably agree that failing in the Q is indicative of future failure.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree to an extent, but I still think it’s fair to look at what NHL and AAAA players from the Q have done and compare Kuger to them. He seems like basically a skill guy, top 6 or nothing. He’s not a guy who you look at his numbers and then think “but he also does all this other stuff for his team.” He’s supposed to be an offensive guy (and I think he led his team in scoring, so that’s good), but he doesn’t stack up with other purely offensive guys from that league.
He hasn’t failed, but he hasn’t done anything to wow me either.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
if nothing else, i’ll take it as a victory if i see more people refer to him as “kug” than “kuger” going forward, since that’s another point of disagreement.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure if it’s the quality of the prospects going down or the quality of the defense rising, but the Q has been a much lower scoring league over the last few seasons, at least at the top-end.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 16, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Submitted for your approval: An increase in the quality of coaching and a general realization that they need to be more defensively sound if the Q is ever going to win another Memorial Cup.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I haven’t the faintest idea if any of your or my factors are in play (although I have to believe that they’re all present in at least some measure, other than the lack of talent), I don’t follow the Q closely enough to know.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 16, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
we need a quebec-based correspondent to go with our sweden- and russia-based correspondents.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 16, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Submitted that too early, I could buy your explanation easily.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 16, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
An increase in the quality of coaching
For my money, one of the best things Kug has going for him is the fact that he plays for Patrick Roy. He seems to know what he’s doing.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
And at the very least goalies tend to teach guys how to play D because they realize the value of playing behind a good one. I don’t know if I can recall any run and gun coaches that were ex-goalies. I don’t have the source off the top of my head but I think I read that Roy fits that mold and really makes sure his teams are defensively sound.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Since the current Memorial Cup format was instated (1983- Winterhawks won, I’m sure you know) only 4 Q teams have won the Cup (‘96, ’97, ’00, ’06). I don’t know if the styles has to do with that or what, but the Q has clearly been the weaker league by that comparison. I don’t know if they are undergoing a coaching revolution or not, though.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Next to the poll, Stevenson? Definitely a project but I think he has a better chance of being Big Joe Finley than the real Joe Finley does.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
In favor of Stevenson being next.
Also, I voted for Beagle. I think of all of the players left on the list, he’s got the best chance at an NHL career, though I’m apt to see some “second line potential > fourth line potential”, I think Beagle is the closest on this list to NHL ready and he has the best chance on this list to actually reach it.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
by Whiter Mage on Sep 18, 2010 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Jig Foe Binley?
~~~ R0cK D@ R3D ~~~
by Chaz-Capapalooza on Sep 20, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
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