Wednesday Caps Clips: Going "Belly" Up?
by J.P. on Sep 15, 2010 6:43 AM EDT
in Caps Clips
Email
Print
Your savory breakfast links:
- Coverage of Day 3 of Rookie Camp:
- Bruce Boudreau talks about the day and looks forward. [Caps365 (video)]
- Recapping the day(s). [Sorenson, The Checking Line]
- Joe Finley continues to lead all Caps prospects in media-coverage-to-upside ratio. [CI]
- Chatting with South Carolina Stingray David de Kastrozza. [OFB]
- Pictures. [Flashy Glove Save, OFB (Day 2 pics, but whatever), bridgetds on Flickr, Caps In Pictures]
- Bruce Boudreau talks about the day and looks forward. [Caps365 (video)]
- Contrary to earlier reports and expectations, Eric Belanger will not be rejoining the Caps any time soon, and Belly's camp sounds none too pleased about (going so far as to presumably leak alleged communications between the two sides and drag a couple of Caps front office personnel into the fray by name... bush league; something tells me this story gets bigger before it goes away). [RDS via Google Translate, cyberpresse via Google Translate, WaPo, Peerless]
- Picking the Caps to win the East. [Masisak]
- They sit atop the East in the first SBN Power Ranking of the season, too. [SBN]
- What the Belanger news means to the Caps (on the ice, at least). [RtR]
- Talkin' leadership with Brooks Laich. [OFB]
- Tom Poti talks about his gruesome injury. [WaPo, Caps365 (video)]
- "This year is kind of do or die." So says Matt Bradley. [OFB]
- Up in NYC, some of the League's best players (and Eric Staal) took part in the annual NHL Player Media Tour. [NHL.com (Ovi says hi... once more, with sexy)]
- Watch that five-hole, Neuvy. [JtG]
- Combining two of my favorite things: the Caps and the Dallas Cowboys losing. [Homer McFanboy]
- Why Tomas Fleischmann should perhaps be worried about the coming season (and no, Gabby isn't in danger of being canned). [RtR (had to chuckle at this, too, because we had a similar thought a few years back)]
- A few sharp-dressed men at Sneaker Ball. [Yfrog]
- Dick Patrick doesn't get as much credit as he should 'round here. [KG's District]
- More on the Ovechkin/McNabb cinematic masterpiece. [Puck Daddy]
- Caps crap. [Capitals Outsider]
- Finally, happy 52nd birthday to Joel Quenneville and happy 57th to Ken Houston (no, not that one, this one).
453 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Here’s a third story in the quebecois press, and I see that (from the Cyberpresse link) Monsieur le sports agent is already saying his client has been practically promised a spot on the Yotes top line and a contract extension with negotiations to begin in January.
The Caps’ first visit to MTL will be…interesting.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Said agent won’t be signing any of his players with the Caps anytime soon. Hopefully they won’t want any of them.
If any of the behavior by GM claimed by the agent is true, I could see it as a fireable offense if it branded him as someone you didn’t want to deal with. Which is why I find it so difficult to believe, not that it couldn’t possibly be true.
I expect Ted to have something to say about it, not because he should, but because he can’t help himself.
"It's always good to have vikings."
I’d be shocked if Ted said anything about this one. This will be handled, as best it can be, behind closed doors. This has the potential of affecting the product on the ice. It’s not the same as a blowhard journalist opining in a book or a blogger who rubs him the wrong way.
If you've read this far...seek help.
I’d be shocked if Ted said anything about this one.
And if he doesn’t, you can bet it’s the result of advice from counsel (which would carry with it its own set of implications).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
"Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive" Sir Walter Scott
He said the phone in his limo is busted...what is you...ignorant?
“Should’ve given me a sweater earlier in the series, Coach.” Sir Walker, Scott
[Note: not a real quote… as far as I know]
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Sep 15, 2010 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
“Mumblemumblemumble, coach, mumblemumble y’know , mumblemumble yes” – The Archduke of Flashbury.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Sep 15, 2010 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions
That sure sounds like Belanger after Bergeron hit him in the chops with the stick…
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Sep 15, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
His agent thinks Belanger even has a shot at the top line? Wow, he is delusional. Probably 3rd line.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Sadly not as delusional as you might think.. Lang is no longer a Yote. Tippet kept one line intact almost the whole season last year so I expect, at least to start off with that Handzal stays with Vrbata & Prucha. Only other “roster” centers are Turris and Fiddler. There has been talk about Wolski moving to center. Add in non-roster invite Wellwood. Not exactly a muderers row for Belanger to climb over.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
I missed Lang not being re-signed :( Do you know if he landed somewhere else?
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
I’ll hold out hope. That’s what we all said last year, too. Still, he’s one of those players I’ve always cheered for no matter where he ends up.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
CP — Does it look like Bissonnette is now the 14th forward? Just noticed it seems like they have a ton of forwards on the roster as of now, even without Wellwood.
I would hope Biss could get in the lineup more, he actually has some decent skills to round out a 4th line. But more time in the press box could mean more tweets..
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Does the NHL have a rule about communication during game time like the NFL does?
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Sep 15, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Depends on how young guys like Boedekker, MacLean, and Tik perform in camp. Biss got a sweater about half the time last season. I expect that will be reduced a bit further this year. They’ll likely keep him around for depth and toughness.
After the young guys I mentioned above the well is fairly dry at forward organizationally which helps Biss as well. At the rookie game last night I commented to the friend I was sitting with on what a weak group of forwards prospects they still have.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
Coyotes have an article on their site, and they seem to be listing Fiddler and Hanzal as both being above Belanger.
http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=537477
Looking at the stats, I would put Belanger above Fiddler though. Mueller is listed as being a C as well – does he usually play wing?
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Mueller’s on Colorado now, so that doesn’t really matter as far as the Coyotes’ depth chart goes.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Sep 15, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I misremembered the team… he started on Phoenix last year, didn’t he.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Yeah; he was sent to Colorado in the deal for Wolski.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Sep 15, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
He was technically physically present on the roster and on the bench for the Yotes before the trade. He’s the Avs headache now.
As for depth chart, Tippett didn’t really operate with one last season. He rolled four lines in many cases and used the Czech’s against the other team’s best line when possible.
I think Tippet will use camp and the first couple of weeks of the season to see who works best with who. Czech line is the only returning line, unless you count Fiddler and Pyatt who were paired together a fair amount of the “4th line” last year.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
bush league
Somebody’s been bush league; either the Caps if Tropicana’s allegations are true, or Tropicana if they aren’t.
Or, maybe more likely, both.
On the basis of the story related in the Google Translate articles, I don’t see much, if any, legal exposure for the Caps, though. Basically, they said we intend to offer you a contract, but we have a condition antecedent (trading a player) that we must first satisfy. If you (Belanger) can live with that, would you please cease negotations with other clubs.
Belanger agreed, the condition was not satisfied, and Belanger did not get his offer.
The Caps, then, did live by their word. It is, however, a crappy way to run a business, in my estimation. But poor business decisions do not of themselves create liability, as any number of ex-CEOs can tell you.
Tropicana, on the other hand, appears to have given horrible advice to his client. I would never advise a job seeker to suspend his search on a nebulous intent to make an offer in the future, pending the completion of other, independent actions. It would have been much more prudent to say, “sure, when you make that offer, we’ll sign it; meantime, we’ll continue to see what’s out there, and good luck with your trade negotiations.”
Then the righteous indignation to the press…that’s the sign of a guy that knows he screwed up badly, imo.
In fact, I retract my first sentence. Tropicana’s been bush league all through this. Depending on the truth of his allegations, the Caps may or may not have been bush league.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
by fat_daddyo on Sep 15, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Basically, they said we intend to offer you a contract, but we have a condition antecedent (trading a player) that we must first satisfy.
Where do you get that from? I don’t see the signing as being contingent upon the trade anywhere in the Belanger side’s story.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I (as usual) ought to have read the entire comment section before posting, as you all had it entirely hashed out below.
But to answer your question:
Il m’a dit que l’entente ne pouvait devenir officielle immédiatement parce que l’équipe tentait d’échanger un joueur, et que si l’entente avec Éric était connue, les Capitals auraient moins de pouvoir de négociations pour compléter une transaction.
He told me the understanding could not become official immediately, because the team intended to trade a player, and if the understanding with Eric were to become known, the Capitals would have less leverage in negotiations to complete the transaction. [Translation mine, from the RDS article.]
The bolded portion reads to me exactly like saying the signing is conditional upon the team completing a trade, no?
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I don’t read it that way at all. I read it as the Caps not wanting to announce the deal and Belanger obliging. I’d read it your way if it read “He told me there was no deal unless the team intended was able to trade a player.”
Point being, it seems that Belanger believed it was a deal regardless of whether or not the trade was made (and they were just holding off on announcing the deal they had), while the Caps viewed the agreement with Belanger as contingent upon a trade being made.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Interesting. I read it completely the opposite. In business, you either have an offer, or you don’t. And in this case, there was no offer because the team was attempting to trade a player – in other words, exactly the implication that you describe: We can’t sign you unless we trade Player X.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Belanger believes he had a deal (more accurately an agreement to agree) – “the understanding” – which could not be made official due to the implication that would have on the team’s ability to make the trade they wanted to make. But “the understanding” was there.
It’s not as if he said, “the understanding could not be reached until the team traded a player.” He believed he was already there re: reaching a deal, and it was the (not insignificant, of course) technicality of signing and registering it that was on hold.
Because the bottom line is, if there’s no contingency, there’s no complaint because obviously the event upon which it was ostensibly contingent didn’t occur.
Ah, L’Affaire Belanger. Le sigh.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Le Sigh is right. This sucks all around. Belanger has to uproot his family, move twice, and take less money. The Caps have a bumbling FO, no Belanger, and they haven’t moved Steckel or Flash.
The most frustrating thing for me? It would have most likely worked out fine if stupid Tacopina had just kept his big yap shut.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Mirtle’s Globe and Mail piece including an email from Tacopina to McPhee provided by Tacopina.
A.k.a. “Boom goes the dynamite.”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Sep 15, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What I find most interesting about the article are the references to McPhee’s reputation amongst the agents. The anonymous source referred to “the likes of McPhee” and Tacopina commented on some unspecified reputation McPhee enjoys.
If the Agents already know GM is, uh, sneaky, than airing the dirty laundry publicly only serves to try their case in the court of public opinion. I don’t get Taco’s play here, he’s making himself look incompetent as an agent, and would make a GM really leery of putting anything in writing with him, other than an SPC.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Sep 15, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
GMGM has said that he thinks he’s one of the GMs that agents like least. I’m not shocked that the agents aren’t exactly fond of him.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Wow. If I wrote an email like that to opposing counsel, I’d get sacked. Not because the idea of the email is a bad one – I’ve authored similar letters in my practice – but because of the grammar, spelling, syntax, and writing. Oh, and because it was sent via email and not on letterhead.
i’m surprised the timestamp was only 8:45PM. reads like a 2AMer.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 15, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
oh, because that’s not going to piss off McPhee royally.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
This just seems like a massive failure on the part of the agent. If the Capitals were in contact on 7/16 and said they were interested in Belanger but had to make a trade first, and then on 7/23 said the trade hadn’t been made and they were still working on it, at that point you have to set a hard date, but it 24 hours, 48 hours, a week, whatever.
Honestly, if I read that article and I were this guy’s client, I’d be looking for a new agent. Today.
by David Getz on Sep 15, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
That’s a valid point, but from Belanger’s perspective he knew the team, the GM, the organization. He bled for them, all that stuff.
If a hockey player hears that a deal is near -and surely the agent over-stated Washington’s position - than Belanger has no reason not to go along with it, especially if later he was provided details (movers, schools or whatever) by the club.
Granted, I’m with you — let’s get this in writing as soon as possible, especially after their “let’s wait a week” thing passes with no firm movement. That should have been a huge red flag for Belanger to drop his side of the verbal agreement and start at least looking elsewhere. I don’t think he’s a fool for how it unfolded, but he certainly should have been a little more savvy, especially for a vet who’s done the UFA dance before.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
That’s a valid point, but from Belanger’s perspective he knew the team, the GM, the organization. He bled for them, all that stuff.
He did the job he was paid to do.
If a hockey player hears that a deal is near -and surely the agent over-stated Washington’s position – than Belanger has no reason not to go along with it
There’s a difference between “going along with it” and moving forward, full steam ahead without getting anything in writing. Like I said elsewhere, everyone should know that you don’t have a job offer until you have it in writing. That’s part of being an adult. At this point Belanger’s basically made himself into a cautionary tale.
He did the job he was paid to do.
Right, but he was around and new the pieces, gaining some trust to not throw up a red flag. This wasn’t a supposed offer some organization he didn’t know, it was one he was familiar with.
What they failed to realize is the pipeline isn’t worth squat and if it’s not in writing, it doesn’t count.
It was probably a good idea to stick with the verbal offer for a few days as the Caps requested (since it was probably the most money he could have gotten), but after that first week, the agent definitely should have let it be known that Belanger was back in play.
As Omar said, “The game’s out there, and it’s play or get played. That simple.”
Got no problem with the negotiating strategy, though it did seem with all the accommodations and unofficial talk with members of the team that Belanger got strung along. Assuming of course that the agent’s story is accurate. Either way, they shouldn’t have let themselves get played out that far without something on paper. All a part of the game, yo.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Sep 15, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
As Senator Davis said, “Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Sep 15, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Either way, they shouldn’t have let themselves get played out that far without something on paper.
That’s what a lot of it boils down to for me. Belanger and/or his agent can argue they were led on but if they’re making that case they’re arguing that they let themselves be led on. No agent who even approaches competency lets that happen.
His agent essentially could have “sold” the Caps an exclusive option to buy Belanger’s services that expired after a certain amount of time. George, we’ll hold our position for one week. On that date, we will begin entertaining offers from other teams. What was so hard about this?
If you've read this far...seek help.
Actually I don’t know if receiving compensation for an exclusive dealing period is permitted under the CBA. I’d be surprised if it were.
This wasn’t a supposed offer some organization he didn’t know, it was one he was familiar with.
But how familiar was Belanger with the Caps when it comes to contract negotiations? He was traded there at the trade deadline, sure he had played a bit for the organization, but this summer is his first dealings with them in contract negotiations. I don’t know that he really knew the organization much better than any other one out there.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 15, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
A month ago Fishman said if they were getting “restless” then they should move on, but the agent felt there weren’t other places available. Sounds like the agent didn’t make an attempt and doesn’t know how to do business in the NHL. Then we have Belange saying that he turned down more money with another team to sign with Phoenix.
(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)
The cynic in me wonders if the other offers he received were for $1.25M or something, and the agent didn’t want to miss out on his cut of the commission on the bigger deal with the Caps, so he tried to appeal to their emotions to push the deal through.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Sep 15, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
“A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush”
A $1.25 million signed contract is worth more than the possibility of a $1.8 million contract I don’t have.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Sep 15, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed. I think Belly’s quote was that was going to be hard to trust anybody else in this business. i’m assuming he’s including his agent in that quote.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Sep 15, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
the good news: it’s an email from tacopina, not an email from GMGM. glad to see the caps were smart enough not to incriminate themselves in writing.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 15, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
But if the “facts” of the case outlined in that email are indeed facts, I’m a little ashamed of how this was handled.
I’m also really curious to know who would have been moved, and who we would have had coming back.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Sep 15, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t think of much I would want that could be had for 1 Steckel. Maybe picks or prospects too?
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Sep 15, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
No one wants two Steckels. Its hard enough to find one pair of size Large +4 hockey pants. Try finding 18" shin pads. Its damn near impossible!
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Sep 15, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is stupid, because why do they even need anything back from him? It wasn’t going to be that substantial anyway, and if it keeps Belanger off the roster then he’s hurting the team. I’d have rather had the trade fall through and wave Steckel (gasp) than let Belanger go to PHX.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Ideally, we’d have traded Steckel then signed Belanger for under $1m.
I’m actually pretty happy that we didn’t sign him for almost $2m.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I like Justin Bourne’s take:
Read the letter from Belanger’s agent to McPhee and all I could think was "if this guy doesn’t hit “enter” soon I’m going to go blind."
Oh, and then I thought “Hey agent, maybe going public with this wasn’t a sweet career move” followed by “Belanger needs a new agent.”
by David Getz on Sep 15, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Quoting from Mirtle
A contract, however, was never signed and registered with the league, an arrangement several veteran player agents said they would never have agreed to.
Duh.
"It's always good to have vikings."
The email reads like a letter you write after a bad breakup then tear up or burn before writing something less emotional.
(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)
The email reads like a letter you a high school girl writes after a bad breakup then tear up or burn before writing something less emotional.
FTFY
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
by SeattleCapsFan on Sep 15, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
My 13yo wouldn’t send something like that. In addition to having virtual tearstains, she would be mortified to have the grammer, spelling, etc.
Women are angels. And when someone breaks our wings, we simply continue to fly ...on a broomstick. We're flexible like that (:
by MR Laughlin18 on Sep 15, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
What I find shocking is that this was an email provided by Tacopina. If you’re an agent trying to prove your side of the argument by providing a written document that you wrote, wouldn’t you put a little more effort into the grammar/spelling/syntax? Hell, my Rink comments seem to be more proofread than that email.
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
by SeattleCapsFan on Sep 15, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
he doesn’t really strike me as the brightest guy in the world.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
Through all of this, Mirtle comes out looking really good. That’s one hell of a great article today — really nice quotes from the other agents along with Tacopina hanging himself. And he did it all without injecting his own opinion. Let the sources’ own words tell the story. Awesome.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 15, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
While few in the MSM even approach Mirtle, this is the difference between a professional and the people who give bloggers a bad name. He puts the info out there for you to evaluate, rather than sticking a mic in someone’s face with a loaded question (like the guy who approach Milbury after his Ovie comments).
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Sep 15, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d point out one minor failing here (and I’ve pointed it out to him as well). In his Aug. 12 article, he didn’t get a comment from the Caps (or, more precisely, he didn’t publish a comment from the Caps). Even a “no comment” (which isn’t a denial) from them would have presented a fuller picture of the situation. As it was, he presented his sources (which I have no reason to doubt) and the player’s side.
Again, I think it’s a minor point, but it would have enhanced the original piece, especially in retrospect.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I know I contacted them on this, too. In fact, will look it up…
The PR person sent me: “In regards to Eric Belanger, George won’t comment on an unsigned player.”
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
by James Mirtle on Sep 15, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
about what I expected. Can’t say anything because of tampering.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
Yes, he does say “official” insead of “made public or announced.” That implies and understanding that there is no deal yet.
This is why I lurk come here… the discussion is so educational.
Women are angels. And when someone breaks our wings, we simply continue to fly ...on a broomstick. We're flexible like that (:
by MR Laughlin18 on Sep 15, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Tropicana, on the other hand, appears to have given horrible advice to his client. I would never advise a job seeker to suspend his search on a nebulous intent to make an offer in the future, pending the completion of other, independent actions. It would have been much more prudent to say, "sure, when you make that offer, we’ll sign it; meantime, we’ll continue to see what’s out there, and good luck with your trade negotiations."
Dead on. If you’re waiting for something to happen before you get your offer, you set up intermittent deadlines; if they’re not met, you look elsewhere. You don’t just assume it’s going to work out. An agent should know that.
I’d like to write a FanPost with a better timeline, but I really can’t. Here’s a little look at Belanger’s summer (there are links to much of this in various comments of mine, but I can’t go fish them out right now)
After the season ended, the Caps were interested in re-signing him. Negotiations began but Eric was pushing hard for 3-4 years and (I think) more money than the Caps wanted to spend. We all know here that with all the centers coming up, the Caps only needed him for a year. Negotiations broke down/ended and Tacopina started talking to the Canadiens. Belanger REALLY wanted to play there and possibly even modified his $/time demands, but MTL claimed they were capped out (Parenthetically, Halpern’s signing at $600K must have hurt Belly bad) and stopped talking.
Dunno who called who, but at some point Team Belly and Team McPhee restarted their talks (somehow I think the Kovalchuk contract saga was involved as the NHL waited to see where he would land) and then we get to where we are now.
I know all of this because it was reported extensively in the quebecois press. IMO, Tacopina is a rookie at sports agentry and misled his client in terms of negotiating tactics and an inflated opinion of what his skills were worth in this year’s UFA market.
In conclusion, Belanger hired the wrong man to represent him.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
by EmilyB on Sep 15, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
It should be noted that all of this (save the opinion) is based on what information is publicly known or assumed.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Sep 15, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
“Nobody is given anything, let’s see what they do”, says BB.
I like this a lot, but seriously we are only talking about a handful of spots. Can’t wait to see who emerges as the #1 goaltender. I’d really like to see Alzner shine and stick with Carlson as the #2 pairing. I would love to see a 220lbs E.Fehr make Semin a LW on the 2nd line.
MP85 10lbs heavier? Nice.
4th Floor, is next, swimvare, undervare, Eric Fehr...
Very excited and nervous to see how this year’s team shapes up. Leaders are going to really step it up and…lead.
If you want to survive out here, you've got to know where your towel is.
by ns on Sep 15, 2010 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Worst part about it is we won’t know until April.
Actually, even worse than that, we might know if it’s not working well in advance of the playoffs, but won’t know if it is working until the spring.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
*straps on roller coaster safety harness*
So would you say it is safe to say that a team’s core should be built around two legit Centers in order to succeed more than anything else?
If you want to survive out here, you've got to know where your towel is.
by ns on Sep 15, 2010 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think there’s any one right way to build a team. I certainly think depth down the middle is important – very important – and I’m uncomfortable with what the Caps currently have there, but is 2Cs foundationally more important than a 1C and a 1D? Or a 1C and a 1L? Not sure.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
In most cases I would say having 2Cs is more important than a 1C and 1L, definitely. But the Caps are not most cases. And having a player like AO as that 1L changes things a bit.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Sep 15, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s pretty much my point – hard (and not all that worthwhile) to speak in generalities on this point.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Let’s see if I have the gist of Tacopina’s argument.
1) Caps & Belanger reach an oral agreement contingent upon another trade.
2) As with every other contingency deal in the history of pro-sports (or contracts for that matter) this is Top-Secret info.
3) Belanger and/or Tacopina told the press everything but the words “Washington Capitals.” just BEFORE both deals are supposed to get signed.
4)The privileged info shared by Belanger weakened the Caps position in the contingent trade, as Bellanger TOLD the press it would.
5) The Caps still tried to get both deals done for 3 & 1/2 weeks (even so far as to help the guy find residency and schools).
6) Both deals are now dead.
7) It’s the Caps fault, even though Belanger torpedoed the deals by talking to the press at the worst possible time in express violation of the Capital’s wishes, standard practice, and common sense.
8) Helping Belanger find a home and schools was a mean thing for the Caps to do, and they should never had even told him about the potential deal or explained the circumstances as all this led to false hope.
I’m just curious, if the Caps had walked away on August 13th saying, “You really blew our other deal out of the water. This won’t work anymore.” would the Caps have still been the bad guy?
Hey, GMGM. I just FedEx’d you a black top hat, silk cape, silver-topped cane, & false pencil-thin mustache. Wear them in good health.
Country Gentlemen's Pig Fertilizer Gazette
Dunny-on-the-World
by Boggles on Sep 15, 2010 8:02 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
I think the Belanger camp would argue that the deal was not, in fact, contingent upon a trade but that the Caps’ desire to make a trade was simply delaying the paperwork (in other words, they’d assert that the deal was done and they were merely doing the Caps a courtesy by allowing it to go unfiled while the Caps tried to make their move). The schools/movers is evidence (again, to the Belanger camp) of the firmness of the deal, and factors that further led Belanger to rely upon the deal he believed he had.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Sep 15, 2010 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is Belanger, from the original cyberpresse.com article in which he discussed his situation (translated)…
“There is no place to go. But [the team is] doing an exchange and does not want to lose leverage [advantage] in that trade. I’m getting fed up. Everybody asks me every day where I go and I’m tired of not being able to say. But it’s part of the business. They asked us to help them in there. It removes the concern [about the future], for sure. Even if it’s been long we keep the secret. But I can still start telling people that it’s done. It just remains to announce the destination…”
Take from it what you will.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Sep 15, 2010 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Certainly, that is their side of things. And it’s very convincing. :-)
Obviously we Caps fans have it all wrong. GMGM is a conniving son of a motherless goat. I’ll just warm up my barrel of tar. Who’s got my sack of goose feathers? And did Tacopina’s Humanitarian of the Year Award get left at Van der Sloot’s house again?
Country Gentlemen's Pig Fertilizer Gazette
Dunny-on-the-World
Not sure why it has to be either/or, and certainly not to either extreme.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that I saw things as being that black and white. My hyperbole was more meant to suggest that the demonizing of the Caps was absurd, not that it was unreasonable to think Belanger had a “good faith” agreement with the team.
Country Gentlemen's Pig Fertilizer Gazette
Dunny-on-the-World
Roger that, though I don’t think there’s real demonizing going on here. Rather, it’s a lawyer playing hardball on behalf of his client who he feels has been wronged.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
One of these days the internetz is gonna make it easy to communicate tone in a font, and that is going to be one rich inventor.
Country Gentlemen's Pig Fertilizer Gazette
Dunny-on-the-World
One of these days the internetz is gonna make it easy to communicate tone in a font
I dunno, I seem to have found the right one.
Signed,
D. Gilbert
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 15, 2010 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Its just too bad you can’t use comic sans in SBN comment sections.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
by Carl Putnam on Sep 15, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would agree, but I would guess that keeping one’s yap shut (on both sides) about the pending deal was also part of said deal. No doubt GMGM was p’od about Belly talking but I kind of doubt he would blow up the deal out of spite. So Belly’s talking to the press may have resulted in the appropriate domino’s not falling into place.
I think it’s pretty likely we will only hear one side of this story, and that side is coming from the guy who potentially lost $1M in the deal and is being represented by a defense attorney…someone who may know a thing or two about developing sympathy for his clients.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Sep 15, 2010 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I would agree, but I would guess…
I stopped reading there.
Not really, but the point is that we have no idea what happened, especially with only one side speaking (and that side, FWIW, has denied leaking anything in the first place).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
The schools/movers/lease angle does make it seem that the organization was at the very least fairly disorganized in knowing the player’s status. There seems to be a communications breakdown there, as well as earlier on between the front office and the player/agent throughout the process of attempting to make the clearing trade (which could have in turn led to the frustration and the media leakage). As time went on, this seemed more and more remote to get done but the accommodations made for him had to send fairly misleading signals (albeit perhaps unintentionally). And, again, just based on that version of the truth…
Well, at the very least, we know that with a communication breakdown, it’s always the same. I mean, they’ll lead to a nervous breakdown. Maybe drive you insane.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Box Seats Blog
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 15, 2010 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
Been a long time since I rec and rolled…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Sounds like Belly thinks he was led to believe he had a job, but he’s not gettin’ a whole lotta love right now.
"If you want money go to the bank, if you want bread go to the bakery if you want goals go to the net." - #21
by snakegriffin on Sep 15, 2010 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
McPhee’s certainly getting a reputation as an executive who gives no quarter.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 15, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Sounds to me that both sides have an argument for being in the right and an argument against them for being in the wrong. Still, it’s no way for an organization to do business and the Caps have a lot to lose if they are perceived among players and agents as untrustworthy. Particularly when you have an owner who claims so loudly and often about doing things the “right way”. You can bet that Belanger will tell anyone who will listen how he was wronged ( and that Damien Cox will print every utterance that hurts the Caps image). We’ll probably never know the complete truth, but this just smells badly to me from a Caps perspective.
We shall see, of course, but I would be fall-off-my-chair shocked if this was the first time a player (or a team) thought a deal was in place and it failed to materialize (oh, hey Michael Nylander to Edmonton). Difference here might be the agent’s willingness to talk about it. It hurts him in a big way, too.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I just think that when more than a week or two went by and nothing happened, Belanger and his agent needed to get off their collective asses and find him a contract somewhere else. He wasn’t going to get $1.8m at that point (if he even was getting it here), but he might have gotten more than $750k, and it would have been before school started.
"It's always good to have vikings."
I would agree. But it also doesn’t make Belly’s or his agent look good either. Should know better than to talk with the press about a deal that hasn’t been signed. Just can’t understand why Belly thought it would be a good idea to talk with the press in the first place. He had nothing to gain and, apparantly, $1M to lose.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Sep 15, 2010 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you have evidence that Belanger spoke with the media re: the trade contingency?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
He spoke with the media about having an ‘oral agreement’ in place and that the team did not want to announce anything (and as we know, not formalizing via a signed contract) due to wanting to make a trade and not losing leverage, which is different than saying the contract was contingent upon the trade being made.
or stealing a post from another board, as someone put it:
- team will sign you if team trades player X
- team will wait to sign you to have more leverage when trading player X or X
Is this what you are getting at with your question?
When was it that he spoke with the media about having an oral agreement in place?
And I understand the point that having a deal and having a deal contingent upon an event occurring are different – it’s a point I made above.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I know you understand that point, I thought you were asking about it again based on the specific comment. (Sorry about that, I’ll go back to talking about Pinizzotto in the faceoff circle.)
To your question, you are the lawyer, I am not. I think many read the comment about the deal is done and the other comments and conclude ‘oral agreement.’
Care to share, for those of us without access?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
"HISTORY DOESN’T MATTER!!! .... Who cares if it’s never been done? We aren’t those teams who failed before. We are in control of our own destiny, and we will make it happen our own way.." - A Gordon, June 2010
By “without access,” I meant without the ability to listen to audio at work (should’ve clarified)
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Well, if not before, he now has said there was an oral (he says verbal) agreement in place and while they needed to make the trade, it was not contingent on the trade.
Overall, he sounded reasonable in his comments, even when egged on a bit, but I’d say he’s not happy. I’m still listening though, I am only commenting on the first part.
Via Russo:
Belanger on Caps’ alleged verbal agrmnt (@theteam990) says twice: “The line has been crossed.” He says he had a house leased; kids in school
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
More (via Russo): “It’s going to be hard for me to trust anybody else in this business for awhile.”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
He should have listened to Steve Austin (the wrestler, not the Six Million Dollar Man)
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Box Seats Blog
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 15, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Also, he mentions Phoenix wasn’t the only offer and states he turned down more money and at this point, chose the opportunity and ice time over the money. He mentions Phoenix talked to him about a long-term deal earlier in the summer.
I have sympathy for Eric Belanger the human being, but I’m having trouble mustering up same for Eric Belanger the commodity.
"It’s going to be hard for me to trust anybody else in this business for awhile."
Hard to trust anybody else in this what? Exactly.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Sep 15, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
The more I think about it, the most it’s just a failure of really basic job-hunting practices. Any halfway decent job-hunting website, book, or class stresses “You don’t have a job until you have an offer letter – no matter what happens”. The same thing applies here.
I mean, think about it. If you (not you, J.P., you in the universal sense) had a potential employer said “You know, we really like you, and we’d like to bring you aboard, but right now we’re in the middle of some organizational restructuring. Once that’s done we should have a position for you, though”, would you stop looking for a job or assume you were going to be hired?
by David Getz on Sep 15, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
“You know, we really like you, and we’d like to bring you aboard, but right now we’re in the middle of some organizational restructuring. Once that’s done we should have a position for you, though"
I think the Belanger camp would argue that it was more like:
“We’re hiring you, but we have to shitcan another guy, and it’ll be easier on us to shitcan him without him knowing we’ve already hired his replacement, so let’s just keep this our little secret for now. But yeah, we’re hiring you – move the fam, etc.”
Unfair to rely on something like that? Many a lawsuit has been about very similar situations…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
At the risk of going to far into the legal minutia, a good solid promise that causes someone to do something that they wouldn’t otherwise have done is called promissory estoppel, and it’s possible to get some recovery for it (obviously, the details of the promise and the situation as a whole are critical)
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 15, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
(it’s the “relied on the assurances” theory JP mentions below)
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 15, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
There it is… I was waiting for “promissory estoppel” to make an appearance (I was dumbing it down for the masses). Kudos, counselor.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
These masses don’t need no dumbing down
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 15, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
promissory estoppel
This sounds like a rank in Frederick the Great’s army.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Sep 15, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
And by the way, under traditional promissory estoppel, he doesn’t get his 1.85 Million. He doesn’t get the contract “he would have had.” There was no contract, and that’s that.
He theoretically gets damages for being strung along. That could be the costs of relocating after committing to the DC area. It could be the salary he lost on the open market because he waited, if he can prove what he “would have gotten” earlier in the free agent period.
By the way, his continued yapping may be really hurting his case. For example, his statement that he voluntarily turned down more money to play for Phoenix could really hurt his damages under the “I would have been paid more if I signed earlier in the summer theory.” It’s a good lesson to everyone — when a lawyer tells you to shut the hell up, do it. It’s usually the best course of action even if you’re not told that.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 15, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 11 recs
that’s a solid and reasonable explanation of what can be expected were belanger to win a legal battle, from belanger’s perspective.
but what happens from a caps perspective? does the NHL punish the team? additional monies or draft picks?
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 15, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think the NHL can punish the Caps – they’d didn’t do anything wrong because there was no formal contract.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
but the supposition was that the caps had lost a court case for damages.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 15, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I still don’t think the NHL would do anything there. The Caps didn’t breach a contract or do anything wrong, it was an unofficial oral agreement.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
again…the SUPPOSITION: the court has ruled the caps did something wrong.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 15, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
in the NFL and other professional sports leagues, there are misconduct penalties for players an clubs, particularly if the US court system has ruled against them. i don’t see why it would be different in the NHL.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 15, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
The league isn’t going to fine them for doing nothing against NHL rules. Hell if the league did that the Caps could countersue. The LO probably hopes this whole thing just fades away. No one comes out looking good.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
so i guess that was my question from the beginning. the NFL has a “general misconduct” policy that allows the commissioner to levy penalties due to civilian court cases. there are no similar commissioner powers in the NHL that would lead the league to act depending on the outcome of the case?
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 15, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
if i were commissioner, i’d definitely be placing a call to GMGM today to get his side of the story. if the court found against the caps, i’d hold them liable.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 15, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see anything in the CBA that would allow that, but I could easily be missing something.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Worth quoting Mirtle here:
"They don’t have a legal leg to stand on," one agent said Wednesday. "The entire situation is governed by the CBA. An agent and the player are obligated under the CBA to not take individual legal action or you can lose your certification to be an agent … The sole remedy would be a grievance.
"The grievance precedent is 100 per cent crystal clear: Unless you have a signed standard player contract on file, registered with the NHL, you have nothing."
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 15, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
except…wait, what are the possible outcomes of a grievance?
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 15, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Grievances can only be filed by the NHL or NHLPA, not individual players/teams. The whole thing is Section 17 in the CBA.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Allow me to tack this must-read on here.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
And cue the lawsuit….
http://www.torontosun.com/sports/hockey/2010/09/15/15362846.html
"It's always good to have vikings."
Unless there’s more to this story than we’re getting, the agent needs to get over himself and accept that he screwed up. Bad.
So the lawyer lawyers up.
Fools and clients, as they say.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
J.P. on LaVar and Dukes doing a nice job making his points for the rest of the world.
"It's always good to have vikings."
oh nice, thanks. here i was wasting my time with the DJ king segment.. :)
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 15, 2010 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions
you know, because i didn’t recognize the name “john” press…
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 15, 2010 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Belanger certainly needs to take some blame in this but the way he’s characterizing this (one-sided for sure) is the Caps saying “it’s a done deal, we just can’t announce it yet. but let us help you relocate your family, get a house and get your kids in school.” That’s very different from what you described.
No contract signed? Not a done deal. The same way if you’re job hunting you don’t assume it’s a done deal until you get a signed offer letter.
Not a done deal, sure, but if a reasonable person in the same situation would have relied upon the assurances and whatnot, there could be a decent claim there.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Especially since they were helping him move here, find a house, get his kids into school, and sending him info about training camp. I think it was very reasonable for Belanger to believe that they intended to sign him in that situation.
by vtcapsfan99 on Sep 15, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
helping him move here, find a house, get his kids into school
Allegedly. And that might have been “Here’s the name of the movers we use, and here’s a good school that some of the guys send their kids to. Y’know, FYI.”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
That’s fair – you can certainly make the “reasonable case”. I guess it’s just that I had it drilled in my head so many times that you don’t have a job offer until you have the paperwork it kind of blows my mind someone in a position like Belanger (and his agent) wouldn’t take the same approach.
He states that the Caps told him in early July that they needed another week or so to complete the trade. 4 or so weeks later, the agent should have been shopping his client elsewhere. Instead, it looks like he was trying to pressure the Caps into the deal by dropping hints to the Montreal press.
"HISTORY DOESN’T MATTER!!! .... Who cares if it’s never been done? We aren’t those teams who failed before. We are in control of our own destiny, and we will make it happen our own way.." - A Gordon, June 2010
He states that the Caps told him in early July that they needed another week or so to complete the trade. 4 or so weeks later, the agent should have been shopping his client elsewhere.
Exactly. If the Capitals say “we need a week to finish this deal” on July 23, you say “Okay, we’ll call back on July 30th. If you guys aren’t ready by then, we’re going to have to look elsewhere.” You don’t just assume it’s going to go through.
by David Getz on Sep 15, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
To me this is where any sympathy I’d have for Belanger goes by the wayside (even though I probably lost most of it when his camp opened their mouths in the first place about the oral deal).
If after the initial period the Caps said they needed more time, I’d tell them fine, but we need to pursue other avenues as well.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
I share the same opinion.
And not that it really matters anymore, but isn’t this the same sort of thing that Huet did to us a few years back? Different situations, but definitely some similarities- as far as how it played out.
You gotta run to a window and say: "Hey, these floors are dirty as hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore!"
Not exactly the same with Huet: he got George’s best offer, which he then shopped and CHI upped the ante. No real harm there.
back to cool special
by bigonetimer on Sep 15, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Belanger was quoted directly, as having a deal in place, and mentioning there was another trade involved, but not naming the team he signed with on August 12th. I’m getting ready for work or I’d google the article. It may have been a globe and mail piece (but I’m not certain).
Country Gentlemen's Pig Fertilizer Gazette
Dunny-on-the-World
It’s in Mirtle’s Aug. 12 article. Basically, there are two pieces:
1) Mirtle says Caps have a deal with Belanger
2) Belanger tells French-language outlet that he has a deal (but doesn’t name team) that he has to wait to announce b/c they’re working on a trade.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Well, I the quote Peerless posted above talks about “an exchange”. Does not specifically say his deal was “contingent” upon some other deal taking place, but clearly both sides agreed not to ink the deal until after the exchange was made, for whatever reason.
But my point was why talk with the press about having any deal in place with any team when you are a UFA. If I’m another team in the market for a veteran C and I read his quote, I might be reluctant to waste my time chasing him.
I do wonder what would have happened if some team came in and offered him a two year deal for the same annual $ as the Caps were supposedly offering. I’m betting Belly and his agent would have jumped on that and forgot all about whatever deal they had with the Caps…I would have.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Sep 15, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe, but maybe not. If that offer came from Florida, he might have been wise to pass if he thought the Caps had a good chance at making a deep playoff run. It could have increased his value on the FA market, allowing him to sign a couple year deal next year.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Sep 15, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t the true kick in the shorts that we were thisclose to trading Flash and didn’t?
I can’t believe so much is being made of Eric Belanger. Yeah, we’re going to get hosed by guys now because we supposedly “wronged” Eric Belanger. Get real.
Choking since 1985.
No. The true kick in the shorts is that the Caps might have misestimated the market by upwards of 140%.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Sep 15, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
To me it seems more a function of his late signing than his true market value, eh? Surely back in July/August he could have pulled at least 1.5M don’t you think?
All’s well that ends well.
Choking since 1985.
Dunno, but to be sure, July money and September money aren’t going to be the same.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Eric Belanger is being paid $750,000 for this year by PHX. Tyler Sloan is being paid $700,000 this year and next. David Steckel is being paid $1,100,000 the next 3 seasons.
Hindsight is 20/20, I know, but still…….yeesh.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Sep 15, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
This is why I complain so loudly about those dumb bottom-of-the barrel contracts to guys like Sloan and Erskine. It’s not just the cap cost of the contract, but it’s the opportunity cost of getting someone much better to fill that roster spot for less money. Hopefully, the Caps will learn their lesson. I think they mistakenly believed that Steckel had some offensive upside and potential as a #3C. If that was what he became, he’d be a bargain. Instead, he’s a marginal #4C and a mediocre penalty-killer.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Sep 15, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m not about to run around in circles screaming for McPhee’s head or anything, but if he is unable to improve the team between now and April and they fall short again, we should start akskin’ some questions. Is he, like Boudreau, a guy that did a great job getting us here but maybe isn’t the guy to take us to the next level?
Rec’d. J.P. hits the nail on the head as for as the Caps end. While the Caps FO has done fairly well with the big deals in recent years they have done some poor jobs on some of the smaller ones. I’m still stunned that they somehow thought they needed to look up guys like Erskine, Sloan, and Steckel to multi-year deals.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
Not by that much. Different market forces. Belanger had more advantage with the Caps early on; the Caps needed a center. Now, Belanger needs a soft place to land. His advantage disintegrated.
If you've read this far...seek help.
When did we start talking about Dave Steckel?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I think Mirtle said Steckel and Flash were the guys on the trading block.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
I think you jumped the snark here.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Sep 15, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Phone call between Belanger and GMGM may go something like this.
by funkyceili79 on Sep 15, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
YLM, you know what to do.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Sep 15, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
....
I sure do…
SUBJECT LINE!!!!!!!
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Box Seats Blog
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 15, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Eep, sorry! I lurk more than I post, still getting the rules down. :/
Epic GIF though. I like!
by funkyceili79 on Sep 15, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Though I would also note my prescience:
* Speaking of likely UFA pivots, Eric Belanger’s agent is a former defense lawyer (and he sounds perfectly charming). Good luck, GMGM. [The Hockey News]
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Ha. I knew that agent’s name sounded familiar. I swear I saw an episode of Forensic Files or Dateline NBC where he defended some whack job woman who chopped up her husband and stuffed him in a suitcase.
For shits and giggles, if this guy really won’t sign anymore of his clients to us, anyone know who some of them are? I’d check myself but heading into a meeting at work in like 3 minutes…
by BradleyFightingVehicle on Sep 15, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Drury is the only other one of whom I’m aware.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Based on articles from earlier this summer and some signing announcements, there are a few young players/prospects signed on with the group, including David Desharnais. Curious to see how this situation impacts Tacopina’s group going forward given they are still trying to build their “stable”.
Well for starters they’ll have $100k less capital to work with.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Sep 15, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Hendricks Camp Invite
Not sure if this got lost in the overnight or was posted in a different thread, but Vogel tweeted last night:
“Matt Hendricks will be on ice with Caps tomorrow on pro tryout basis. A member of 06-07 Bears Calder finalists, he played for Avs in ’09-10.”
note: Around the time the Caps played Colorado, I think last year, Boudreau commented that the Caps had expressed interest in signing Hendricks when he chose to sign with Colorado. Energy guy who plays center who played for Boudreau/Woods in 06-07.
Asked about it last night, but it was late. So, another fourth liner? Why?
"It's always good to have vikings."
For someone to play John Druce come April.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Sep 15, 2010 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
An energy fourth liner who plays center…maybe BGordon insurance, maybe he’s Hershey-bound
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
If he plays center, maybe he’s Pinizzotto insurance (jokes, people, jokes!).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Why not? It’s a tryout. If he turns out to be better and cheaper than another fourth line option, great.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Sep 15, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
At this point, simply an extra skater on a pro tryout, nothing more and it’s not unusual.
One they get to look at a player without signing him. Two, perhaps they still hope to trade someone off the roster. Three, maybe they were still planning to hope to sign Belanger and they want more depth at center (and no I am not comparing Hendricks to Belanger.) He played center and wing for Colorado last season, IIRC.
Also, a player without a contract and connections to the coaching staff and the organization so maybe if he doesn’t find an NHL contract, he signs with Hershey; although there is a small AHL vet issue brewing in Hershey depending on things play out on the Caps roster.
Well, I guess all those things went through my mind, but Hershey looks like it’s pretty set, too, so it didn’t seem to make a whole lot of sense. Although I guess maybe some kind of Hershey insurance in case someone gets claimed when they get sent down? I’m s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g, I know.
"It's always good to have vikings."
I just ran the math and double-checked on an AHL forum, and it’s interesting to note that Hendricks actually falls in the in-between category (307 GP) as far as the AHL vet rule goes so no issue in terms of the AHL vet count with players currently expected to be in Hershey.
by sk84fun_dc on Sep 15, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow, nice — wouldn’t have occurred to me to look at that.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 15, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Anybody want any specific news today during Rookie Camp? 3 goalies are out on the ice.
4th Floor, is next, swimvare, undervare, Eric Fehr...
Im thinking scrimmage today? Alzner and Laich were going at it on 1 on 1 drills. After many failed attempts, Laich finally buried one.
4th Floor, is next, swimvare, undervare, Eric Fehr...
Yesterday coach said no scrimmage/more drills today because they only have 12 forwards, but if they throw the vets into the mix…
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Sloan and Laich are both here. That adds an awesome Wingah and Center!!!!
4th Floor, is next, swimvare, undervare, Eric Fehr...
With Sloan in, the only two missing are the Captain and the Snowflake,
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Well we know that the captain is performing his press duties for the NHL in NYC. So where’s the snowflake? I thought he was supposed to fly here on the 13th according to the Russian press. Maybe he is getting over his jet lag before showing up.
by vtcapsfan99 on Sep 15, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Which three goalies?
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Definitely a Red squad and White Squad.
I’ll get teams soon
4th Floor, is next, swimvare, undervare, Eric Fehr...
Red
Godfrey/LaFrancois/Gustafsson/Kugreyshev/Johannson/Hauswirth/Cullity/Galiev/Carrier/Yeo
White
Finley/Flemming/Eakin/Kaharisky/Pisano/Stevenson/Mitchell/deKastronozza/Bruess/Kroll
4th Floor, is next, swimvare, undervare, Eric Fehr...
Ouch
Feel the burn, Eric Staal! Tssssssssssss
Every time Matt Bradley scores a goal, everyone inside the Beltway should get the next day off from work. It's only fair.
With Belanger gone, I would have to assume Flash is the current 2C and MP/Mackan are going to compete for the 3C spot. Are there any other candidates that the Caps have?
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Real candidates in the farm system? No, not yet.
Trade possibly but doubtful.
Laich could step in, but we’ve seen that before. Gross.
Thats the list. Flash/Mackan/MP for 2 spots. Actually Mackan/MP for 1 spot.
4th Floor, is next, swimvare, undervare, Eric Fehr...
A rotation at 3C for Mackan and Matty P is not the worst idea in the world. Might be better to not have just one or the other getting beat up every night for 82 games in a row. Similar to what they’ll be doing with the goalies.
Then the Caps would have:
8/19/22
21/14/28
25/90-85/16
17-15-39-10
With 2 in the press box each game
Am I missing anyone? (Doesn’t include AGord or the other Hershey hopefuls)
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
A rotation at 3C for Mackan and Matty P is not the worst idea in the world.
Actually, this is pretty much the worst idea possible. As young players, Mackan and MP need to develop. In order to develop, they need to play every night at the position they’re eventually going to play at in the NHL (i.e., Center). If one or the other can’t hack an 82-game season, there is absolutely no reason to burn a contract / free agency year to have them platooning.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I agree, it has to be one or the other. My guess is MP will get and Mackan will head back to Sweden.
4th Floor, is next, swimvare, undervare, Eric Fehr...
Mackan playing against SEL players for a full year will be more beneficial than him playing 12 games with the Caps, sitting int he press box for another 12, and then being shuttled back and forth between DC and Hershey.
Well, if he’s here, he’s not going to be sitting half of the games. 12 minutes a night is fine for him, though, and I think it’s critically important that he start getting acclimated to NA rinks – seemed his biggest problem at Dev’t Camp.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Sep 15, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The frustrating thing is that the best thing for his development – playing #2C in Hershey – seems to be the one thing that WON’T happen, given his statements about returning to Sweden if he doesn’t make the Caps’ roster.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Sep 15, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My guess is that Mackan has the inside track to 3C and that if he wins the job, MP will be back in Hershey.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
With that being said, I could also see BB doing what the team did with Backstrom and giving Mackan some time on the wing in order to acclimate to the NA-sized ice before putting him in at 3C.
Either way, if he’s going to burn a year of eligibility, I hope he gets some regular ice time and plays a key role.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Maybe, although that was, of course, a Glen move. Not sure Bruce subscribes to that philosophy.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Of course, but it’s also a tried-and-true method for acclimating talented young centers to the NHL. The Avs did it with both Drury and Tanguay back in the day, although in Tanguay’s case, it seems to have stuck.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I wouldn’t say that those two examples make it “tried and true”, especially given the Cs that were above him. The vast majority of young Cs play C when they jump to the NHL.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
There are many more examples. One that pops readily to mind is Mark Messier. Stamkos is yet another. If I recall correctly, the Sabres did something similar with Derek Roy.
This isn’t just a one-off thing – it’s a pretty standard method of acclimating young players to the NHL without forcing them to play a really tough position.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I don’t know enough about Mark Messier to comment on that situation. I also know that the two most recent coaches to put stud Cs on the wing to “acclimate them” got fired before Christmas.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Sure, but it’s not just an isolated incident. Someone with more familiarity feel free to correct me, but I think that the Flyers did the same thing with Giroux and the Pens did the same thing at the outset of Staal’s career.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Hooks can answer on Staal, but Giroux is a different situation. The Flyers are loaded at C and they routinely play Cs on the wing. It’s not an acclimation thing, it’s a matter of getting your talent in the lineup. Carter, Briere, Giroux, and their checking line Cs have all spent time on the W and at C at various points. I just think that if you look at the whole picture the overwhelming majority of young Cs play C to start, and not W.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I just think that if you look at the whole picture the overwhelming majority of young Cs play C to start, and not W.
And I think you’d be surprised by the percentage of young Cs who play their first 10-20 games in the NHL at wing until they’re acclimated and their coach fully trusts them.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
the Pens did the same thing at the outset of Staal’s career.
Staal was mainly a winger on Malkin’s line in ‘06-07, you’re correct. But in this case, it wasn’t, as you theorized above:
it’s a pretty standard method of acclimating young players to the NHL without forcing them to play a really tough position.
It wasn’t “we need to break this kid in as a W, he’s not ready to be a C” it was more like:
“this kid is too good and too young to play with our poor quality lower line guys, but he’s not better than our two unreal scoring centers, guess we’ll see how he does on the wing.”
To evidence this, Staal was playing 3:02 short-handed per night his rookie season, as an 18 year old. That’s not easing a guy into the NHL to get him acclimated as your stance seems to be.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
It wasn’t "we need to break this kid in as a W, he’s not ready to be a C" it was more like:
"this kid is too good and too young to play with our poor quality lower line guys, but he’s not better than our two unreal scoring centers, guess we’ll see how he does on the wing."
The reasons for doing it vary. The same paradigm applied with the Avs and Tanguay. He was a C through juniors, but shifted to LW because the Avs had Forsberg and Sakic, but the team wanted to get his talent in the lineup. Regardless of the motive, it’s a common tactic.
To evidence this, Staal was playing 3:02 short-handed per night his rookie season, as an 18 year old. That’s not easing a guy into the NHL to get him acclimated as your stance seems to be.
Maybe it’s just me, but I’d argue that playing C 5v5 is actually tougher from a mental standpoint than playing wing on the PK. There’s much more to keep track of in terms of the forecheck and the breakout, and the defensive assignments and switches are much more complex.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
How can you say “regardless of the motive” when your point was that the motive is to “acclimate the player to the NHL.” You’ve cited Tanguay, who is a W, not exactly a strong point. Drury, who like Tanguay was buried behind stud Cs so it wasn’t an option. Giroux and Staal were also buried behind stud Cs and played both C and W. The two guys that were actually “acclimated to the NHL” by playing wing, Backstrom and Stamkos, were put there by coaches that were fired within 2 months of the season’s start and who played far better at their natural position; not exactly a ringing endorsement for that strategy.
And I completely disagree that it’s easier to play C 5 on 5 than PK. PK is the more difficult role, and if, as you stipulate, part of the point of acclimation on the wing is to gain the coach’s trust, then how does playing 3+ minutes of PK not indicate a ton of trust from the coaching staff?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
You’ve cited Tanguay, who is a W, not exactly a strong point.
Tanguay was a C until Colorado shifted him to get him in the lineup. He has since sporadically played C, although he now seems to be primarily a LW. I don’t see how this, in any fashion, undermines my point. You said this was a limited thing, and I pointed out that it’s not. It’s actually a pretty common tactic for getting young, talented players like Backstrom, Stamkos and Mackan into the lineup, despite the fact that they might not be ready to take on the full-time responsibility of being a center. Nothing you’ve said thus far disproves that point in any way.
And I completely disagree that it’s easier to play C 5 on 5 than PK.
I can’t agree with you that it’s mentally more difficult to kill penalties. It’s certainly physically more difficult, but mentally, there’s a hell of a lot more going on 5v5. Just take breakouts as one example – there is none on the PK. You just dump the puck out. Or forechecks – again, there really is none on the PK, you just drop back after one desultory swipe at the puck-carrier. The center also has a wider range of in-zone defensive responsibilities 5v5 than a winger does 4v5.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Well if Tanguay isn’t actually an NHL C, then he wasn’t being acclimated, he was having his position changed. He may have sporadically played C, but he’s primarily played W everywhere he has gone.
Quite presumptive putting Mackan in that group.
Citing 5 or 6 guys doesn’t prove it is a “common tactic” considering the vast majority of Cs actually play C. Lecavalier, Malkin, Crosby, Lindros, Toews, Thornton, Marleau, Getzlaf, Richards, Carter, Datsyuk, Yzerman, Fedorov, etc. etc.
Without as much help in the D zone, you can’t make mental mistakes on the PK. It may seem simpler, but that doesn’t make it easier. You have to think and operate faster in making your reads and sliding your coverage. If you aren’t acclimated to the NHL, and the coach doesn’t trust you, then you don’t PK. You can point to specific differences in ES or PK, which is valid, but you’re just obfuscating. As a matter of common sense it’s more difficult to PK; and you are ignoring the trust factor in acclimation. You said that a coach needs to acclimate a young player at W until they trust them. How does playing a guy on the PK indicate any sort of lack of trust?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Citing 5 or 6 guys doesn’t prove it is a "common tactic" considering the vast majority of Cs actually play C. Lecavalier, Malkin, Crosby, Lindros, Toews, Thornton, Marleau, Getzlaf, Richards, Carter, Datsyuk, Yzerman, Fedorov, etc. etc.
How funny, then, that: Malkin, Thornton, Marleau, Getzlaf, Carter, Datsyuk (and Zetterberg, and Forsberg and…) have all spent time at wing during their career. Thornton, in fact, did it in his rookie year… as he became acclimated to the NHL.
How does playing a guy on the PK indicate any sort of lack of trust?
You’re now comparing apples and oranges (although Hooks started it). I’m saying that playing a guy at wing for a bit 5v5 is a pretty common way to acclimate players to the NHL. The remainder of this conversation is heading away from that but, in fairness, I did bring up the issue of trust so…
For the sake of argument, trust is situational. For example, I trust Ovie in most situations, but I don’t want him taking a slot in the shootout, nor do I want him out there killing a penalty at the end of a game. I generally trust Schultz, but if the opposition sends Gomez, Gionta and Plekanec over the boards, I might change my mind.
To put it in this in the context of our conversation, the center 5v5 has myriad responsibilities that the winger 4v5 does not have. It’s entirely possible that a coach might trust a kid to kill penalties if he’s a great skater but makes poor offensive decisions, while not letting him play center much 5v5. Or, alternatively, a young center might have such tremendous offensive ability that getting him into the lineup is a priority, regardless of position, so he’s placed in the position that’s easiest to learn and has fewer negative consequences should he make a mistake.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Nice try. Those guys all played W at some point, but they started as C, they have proven to be versatile but have always been Cs.
Your being ridiculous on the trust point. Getting PK TOI is about the biggest statement of trust you can make. If you think a coach would trust Staal to PK but not trust him to play C at ES then I don’t know what else to say.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
If you think a coach would trust Staal to PK but not trust him to play C at ES then I don’t know what else to say.
Would you trust Alex Semin on the PK? You should – he’s quite good at it.
Would you want him as our #2C? Probably not.
There are plenty of players who I’d trust to kill a penalty as a wing who I wouldn’t play as a center 5v5.
In Jordan Staal’s case, his rookie faceoff stats show that he wasn’t out there primarily as a center when he killed penalties – Talbot took most of the SH draws, and Dominic Moore took more than Staal did even though he played in 22 fewer games. There might be a reason for that, as Staal lost 63% of the faceoffs he took.
Perhaps THAT’S why he was trusted to be a wing on the PK, but not a center 5v5.
/half snark/
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Yeah, but now you are switching positions. Semin is a Wing. Of course he plays W in all situations. We’re talking about changing a player’s normal position, which generally only makes things more difficult.
The issue with trust is whether or not you know the systems, can handle yourself, etc. There’s simply no way you take a C and say “I don’t trust you at ES but you’re going to be my primary PK guy.” It just doesn’t happen. The whole “wing or C on the PK” is entirely a Red Herring. There are only 2 Fs so there is no traditional C/W dynamic. But you absolutely have to be reliable in your own end (the most difficult thing for young Cs and generally the point of “acclimation”). Staal was trustworthy. That’s the point. When you talk about trust you are implicitly talking D. There is no trust factor on offense. Offense is all skill. You have it or you don’t. The D zone is where you really need to be able to battle, read the play, know the systems, etc. If you can’t be trusted to do it at ES there is simply no way you are trusted on the PK. Look at the guys coaches hide because they don’t trust them. None of them are PKers.
And perhaps, looking at the way our PK lines are arranged, the Rink Rats trust Semin more than BB actually does.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
There’s simply no way you take a C and say "I don’t trust you at ES but you’re going to be my primary PK guy."
Really?
(All ranks are among Caps forwards)
David Steckel: SH TOI/G Rank: 1. . . ES TOI/G: 15 (and 3rd from last of any player who played more than 30 games)
Boyd Gordon: SH TOI/G Rank: 2. . . ES TOI/G: 23 (Otherwise known as DEAD FUCKING LAST)
It sure seems as though Boudreau really trusts these two guys shorthanded, but not at even strength.
Anyhow, I’ve honestly lost track of what the original argument was.
I think my original point was that putting a young center at wing for a brief period at the beginning of his career is a relatively common occurrence. It’s like a pitcher breaking into the big leagues as a reliever before transitioning to be a starter, or an offensive lineman breaking into the NFL as a guard before becoming a center. Sometimes, this is for as little as a month, other times it’s a year, and sometimes, it sticks.
Given the number of players I cited that have followed this path, I think my statement is fairly incontrovertible.
I made another, semi-related statement that playing Center 5v5 is more difficult mentally than killing penalties.
When you talk about trust you are implicitly talking D.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of my claim. The trust thing for me is a throwaway tangent to my central point. I said, “Playing C 5v5 is harder mentally than killing penalties.” This is implicitly including playing offense.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Sep 15, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Do you think that means BB doesn’t trust them? OK then. How about “guys like Steckel are guys you can win with.” How about the D zone draws. Steckel doesn’t get the TOI because he has no Offense, not because BB doesn’t trust him. Do you honestly think BB doesn’t trust Steckel? Or Gordon? Or that TOI = trust?
Given the number of players I cited that have followed this path, I think my statement is fairly incontrovertible.
Really? So I must have missed, like, hundreds of guys. Because you named fewer than ten. And half of them aren’t even good examples. Go ahead and dig in, just remember to buy new shoes cuz you are wearing the shit out of those.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Go ahead and dig in, just remember to buy new shoes cuz you are wearing the shit out of those.
Using snappy lines to make up for the fact that you don’t have an evidential leg to stand on is pretty lame. The number of centers in this league who broke in as wings for their first 10-20 games is significant. I never said it was every center – I didn’t even say it was the majority. I just said this is a common method.
Feel free to keep on arguing tangential points and not presenting any evidence supporting your position.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
You listed two guys behind Sakic/Forsberg (one of which is actually a Wing now), one guy behind Crosby/Malkin (who got a ton of PKTOI), and two guys whose coaches were fired in part because they didn’t know how to use the skill they had. And then you talk about my evidentiary downfall. Cute. It’s an empirical question, and neither of us have the data, but apparently that only is a problem to my half of the argument. I’ve named more guys than you, could keep on going, and common sense is on my side. Plus, at least half the guys you named weren’t being put on the wing for “acclimation” as your original claim. The real “tried and true” method of getting Cs into the league is via the AHL. Where’d Duchy start? And O’Reilly? And Tavares?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
You listed two guys behind Sakic/Forsberg (one of which is actually a Wing now), one guy behind Crosby/Malkin (who got a ton of PKTOI), and two guys whose coaches were fired in part because they didn’t know how to use the skill they had.
You’re conveniently ignoring Thornton, Zetterberg, E. Staal, Messier, or Zajac (who spent some time as a wing when he was a rookie), or Spezza (who saw time as a wing as a rookie), or Scott Gomez, or Mike Ribeiro, or RJ Umberger, or Antoine Vermette, or Max Talbot (who spent time on the wing in 05-06), or Nik Antropov, or Patrick Sharp, or Joe Pavelski, or Dainius Zubrus… I’d go on, but I’ve got shit to do today.
Where’d Duchy start? And O’Reilly? And Tavares?
Duchy started at C. O’Reilly actually started as a wing on Galiardi’s line for a bit, then gradually shifted over to C, so thanks for bringing that up. There was also talk of shifting Wolski over to Center in order to allow Duchy to play wing (it happened a couple times, but didn’t stick). Tavares, obviously, started at C.
With all three of those guys, however, I can reverse your “center depth” argument and point out that both teams were almost bereft of decent centers. The Avs had Stastny – that’s pretty much it. The Isles had literally nobody outside of Tavares. Seriously – look at that depth chart. It’s absurdly bad, even after Weight came back.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Well if Tanguay isn’t actually an NHL C, then he wasn’t being acclimated, he was having his position changed. He may have sporadically played C, but he’s primarily played W everywhere he has gone.
You’re correct that in Tanguay’s case it was a position change, but that change was predicated by a desire to get him on the ice and an overabundance of talent at center. In another organization, he might never have switched over.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
in Tanguay’s case it was a position change, but that change was predicated by a desire to get him on the ice and an overabundance of talent at center.
So… not acclimation?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
So… not acclimation?
My original comment:
The Avs did it with both Drury and Tanguay back in the day, although in Tanguay’s case, it seems to have stuck.
Part of it was a desire to get the kid on the ice. Part of it was organizational depth. Part of it was likely also acclimation.
You’re getting wrapped around the axle about a completely tangential word choice (acclimation vs. a desire to get the kid on the ice quickly) simply because your main disagreement (that C’s starting out in the NHL as W’s is rare) doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Part of it was a desire to get the kid on the ice. Part of it was organizational depth. Part of it was likely also acclimation.
All of which can clearly apply in the case of Mackan, which was my original point.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
To say that organizational depth is keeping Mackan off the Caps as a center is a highly dubious claim, if you ask me.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Sep 15, 2010 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I won’t disagree, other than to say that if he doesn’t show that he can play #3C out of camp, it’d be dumb to keep him around playing under 12 minutes a night.
Again, it’s a tangential point.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Except that you’ve already penciled him in at wing. So it’s not.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
To say that organizational depth is keeping Mackan off the Caps as a center is a highly dubious claim, if you ask me.
Not really. A team like Florida might have him penciled in already.
The more I think about it, he could be a good 3C, playing with Flash. He’ll be guaranteed to get easier minutes, which is probably better for a guy making the jump from SEL to NHL at 20.
by red army line on Sep 16, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
No, your original point was all acclimation. And trust. But now it’s ballooned to “anything that possibly in any universe might in any way support anything that D’ohboy argued, or should have argued, or might have argued, or in the future could potentially argue, but not limited to what he, in fact, actually argued.”
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
My main disagreement is pretty much the way the rest of the NHL operates. You can say whatever the fuck you want and twist words, but you’re still wrong. Centers play center, wings play wing, D play D. I’m getting another drink.
Your main point was acclimation. If you want to move the goalposts now, go for it. Scott Norwood just wonders where you were when he needed you.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
My main disagreement is pretty much the way the rest of the NHL operates.
So, although I can cite tons of examples of centers who have begun their career at wing, you think that the rest of the NHL operates differently.
Centers play center, wings play wing, D play D.
Except when Thornton and Staal played wing. Or when Fleischmann plays center. Or when Steve Yzerman played wing. Or when Peter Forsberg played wing. Or when Sami Kapanen played D. Or. . .
Players shift positions all the time. It’s not nearly as rare as you seem to think it is.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Tons?
Thornton didn’t play W as a rookie. Unless you have something to support that other than your claim I’m not buying.
Flash got moved to C because we were thin, not to acclimate. If you had said “sometimes depth chart issues make guys play out of position” then I wouldn’t have argued. That’s normally why a C plays W, not to acclimate. Maybe Mike Richards had to play W in Vancouver to acclimate himself to Olympic hockey.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Thornton did play W for some of his rookie year. Burns didn’t trust him, but they kept him on the team anyway.
If you don’t believe me, check out his game log – there are many games in 1997-98 where he doesn’t take a single faceoff, which is literally almost impossible to do if you’re playing center.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
And the word choice is sure as hell not tangential.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Puck Daddy on Seguin
Yeah, I’m totally just making all this up. Centers never start their careers at wing in order to get acclimated to the NHL game.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
The Bruins are also in the position of being stacked at center, so it’s a different case than usual. That type of situation was mentioned above as an exception – such as with Jordan Staal.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Is Seguin a young player?
Are they going to get his feet wet in the NHL by playing him at wing?
Does the fact that they’re deep at center in any way not support the original claim that putting young centers at wing for a while is a common method for introducing them/acclimating them to the NHL?
Are they leaving him in Junior? No.
Are they going to have him be a #4C? No.
Are they moving him to defense? No.
They’re moving him to wing so that he can play in the NHL. Which was my original point regarding what could conceivably happen to Mackan. Is the situation slightly different? Yes, the Bruins are a bit deeper at center. But this doesn’t negate the possibility that the team may want to keep Mackan on the roster, but might feel that he needs time to get used to the North American rink and the Caps’ system before playing center.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Caps and Bruins are in totally different situations that would make putting Mackan at wing a bad idea. The Bruins are deep at center and lacking at wing, and have a young center who they want to play. The Caps are deep at wing and lacking at center, and have a young center who they want to play. Why would they put him at wing? It makes no sense at all. They are already putting a player who should be a wing at center due to not having other options.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Why would they put him at wing? It makes no sense at all.
The Caps were equally shallow at center when Backstrom came to the team. The team’s “depth” consisted of Nylander, then Kozlov, Gordon and Steckel.
One good Swede, a winger playing center and two grinders. Sound familiar?
The team started Backstrom at wing out of a desire to let him get acclimated to the North American game before tasking him with playing a much more demanding position. As JP pointed out, that was Hanlon’s decision, not Boudreau’s, to which my response was, “this is a tried-and-true method…,” hence starting this whole fucking fracas.
Back to your question of why they’d do it. Backstrom is a lock for #1C. Fleischmann is increasingly looking like the #2C, unless Mackan dominates in camp or Flash shits the bed. Gordon and Steckel have #4C locked down. So Mackan would likely have to be the #3C to stick on the team as a center.
Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that Mackan comes into camp and performs pretty well, but isn’t outstanding. In particular, he’s still having difficulty adjusting to the size of the rink and Bruce’s system, and he’s missing defensive assignments. However, the Caps see enough in him that they don’t want him to go back to Sweden, which he has threatened to do if he doesn’t make the Caps.
The answer, then, would be to play him at wing until he gets used to the NA game and BB’s system. Give him about 10-20 games and then phase him in as a center. Let him get confident playing alongside a veteran like Gordon or Laich.
In an ideal world, Mackan would go to Hershey and play about 20 games as the #2C there before joining the Caps around the holidays. Sadly, it sounds like he really doesn’t want to do that, and the Caps may just accommodate him by keeping him around.
I’m not saying it’s going to happen – my guess, as I said earlier, is that he starts the year as the #3C. Still, it’s well within the realm of possibility and, if the Caps are committed to keeping him in DC this year, makes sense.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
The only way I could see Mackan playing wing is if they put him on the 3rd line and bumped Chimera to the 4th. Only thing is, who’s center then? Perrault, Gordon, or Laich – although I doubt both MP and Mackan will make the team.
Even with your points above, it stilldoesn’t make sense to play him at wing for the Caps. This is a year when they have a shot at going far in the playoffs, and they should try and field the best team possible – which wouldn’t have Mackan on the wing instead of one of the experienced wingers already on the team.
I do hope he agrees to play at Hershey – that would get him the experience at the NA game that he needs.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
So being behind Savard, Krejci, and Bergeron means that they want to acclimate him? You’re just ignoring my main point because… it helps you? The B’s have C depth. The Avs had C depth. The Pens had C depth. But now you are lumping all reasons for playing a C at W together because you need to. Your point was wrong, now you backtrack. See you at the bar.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
So being behind Savard, Krejci, and Bergeron means that they want to acclimate him?
Actually, yes. Your argument is that “Cs always play C,” my argument is that this is not the case and that young Cs regularly play W as they break into the NHL, or acclimate (since you’re hung up on that word).
Seguin is a young player. The B’s want to get him into the lineup because he’s so talented. If he’s so good that the B’s HAVE to get him into the lineup as a 19-year old (which means burning a year of ELC/FA eligibility), doesn’t it stand to reason that he just might be more talented than the B’s existing centers? Savard, Krejci and Bergeron are good, but they’re not Crosby/Malkin/Staal. Doesn’t it stand to reason that if Seguin really were as good as he’s claimed to be that they might want to shove Bergeron over to wing (where, incidentally, he played as a rookie as he acclimated to the NHL)?
Or is it just possible that the B’s agree with Joe Sacco’s quote in the above article and recognize that playing C in the NHL is much, much more difficult than playing C in juniors, and that playing W is a way of giving a guy a little confidence before forcing him to play a much more difficult position?
So, in the end, Seguin will likely play W as he acclimates to the NHL (which was my only point to begin with) before eventually transitioning back to C. This is pretty cut and dried.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
The word acclimate is very important, don’t dodge it. Acclimating means you aren’t really ready for it. The majority of the guys you mentioned were on the W not because they weren’t ready, but because there were just better guys already on the team. When a guy isn’t ready normally they just get sent back to Portland, where Eric Fehr scores the GWG in G7.
Again, saying that guys who are stuck behind better players sometimes play out of position is fine. Saying that playing rookies in the wrong position just because they aren’t ready to play their true position isn’t.
Seguin probably is more talented than at least one of the B’s Cs, but he’s not better right now. If he was actually better then he wouldn’t be the guy moving to W.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
The majority of the guys you mentioned were on the W not because they weren’t ready, but because there were just better guys already on the team.
There’s a difference between being “NHL-ready,” and being ready to play C in the NHL, as Sacco’s comments in the PD article point out.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
The B’s have C depth. The Avs had C depth. The Pens had C depth.
Was there C depth in every case that I cited above? (No, there wasn’t.)
In every case save Tanguay, did the player in question not transition back to C despite the aforementioned C depth? (Yes, they did.)
Does it not follow, then, that there might be other reasons outside of C depth that prompts teams to put talented young Cs at W for a brief period at the outset of their career?
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Two problems with moving him to the wing – lack of space, and there would still be a gap at center. Both could be solved if Laich was moved to 3C, but I doubt that will happen.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Or your comment below about having Gordon as 3C… I just read that.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
I think that could be a possibility for a month or two. Not permanently, obviously, but it would allow him to acclimate to the smaller ice without handing him the huge defensive responsibilities that come with being a center. I think Gordo would be the perfect mentor in that regard because he’s probably one of the smartest and most positionally sound players on the team.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
The beauty of hockey (well, one of them) is that it is structured, except when it’s not. Let’s say, for a moment, that Fleischmann, Perreault, and Johansson all make the roster. There are only four center positions, and two fo them are encumbered (Backstrom on the top end, Steckel/Gordon on the bottom, and the slash there is a hint of what is to come). Neither Flesichmann, nor Johansson, nor Perreault is going to be stamped on opening night “Second Line Center, Washington Capitals Approved.” It might be that one or another will occupy the role based on an opponent. Or they might rotate within a game, depending on situation and/or how well the club is playing at the moment.
Football plays with platoons (Albert Haynesworth doesn’t line up on every down at nose tackle). Baseball has situational substitutions (late inning defensive replacements). Basketball has “rotations.” Same could apply here. All of them could get time at 2C, and it might have little to do with their respective talents; it might just be coach’s response to the situation or opponent.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Sep 15, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
No. No. No.
See my above comment, but platooning young players under a CBA where they burn up eligibility based on games played is a tremendously bad idea. In many regards, having younger players on ELCs and the like increases flexibility, but this is one area in which it does not. If all three players were in their early 30s, I’d say platoon the hell out of them, but if GMGM and BB are dumb enough to burn a full year of free agency to have them play in 30-40 games, Ted ought to fire him.
Oh, wait. GMGM already did that unnecessarily with John Carlson last year. WTF. Have fun forking over your money, Ted.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
It is better than the alternative of overpaying for an undertalented FA center (and who at this point is left) and sticking a player on a cheaper contract who might be as productive in the farm system. Even with the second contract premium, this is likely an inferior solution.
A trade is a possibility, but for talent, the club would have to give up talent, and probably younger talent to boot. The Caps are in a hard place regarding any center position not played by Nicklas Backstrom.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Sep 15, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
The best option(s) remaining is(are) to:
A) Let Flash begin the season at #2C;
B) Let Mackan begin the season at #3C or #3LW with Laich or Gordo as his C;
C) Allow Flash to either flourish or flounder. If he flourishes, great – he’s increased his trade value. If he flounders then;
D) Move Mackan to #2C if he’s successful at #3C or;
E) Trade for an acceptable #2C, such as Brad Richards.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
So asserting the Caps need a bonafide NHL 2C is like shipping coals to Newcastle, except when they get to the playoffs. ;)
I feel I am going mad following this team.
by S h a g g y on Sep 15, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Is it just me, or is the praise (?) of Finley amongst the Caps is just to build him up to be a nice piece of a forthcoming trade?
I suppose some team would oogle over his size and potential and take him on when they send the Caps a veteran center or defenseman. No?
Size? Yes. Potential? Not so much.
Finley’s still young enough to be considered a prospect, no doubt, but he’s also 23 and hasn’t demonstrated an ability to play about the ECHL. Some of that is mitigated by his size and position, but it still doesn’t bode well.
I think it’s mitigated more on his inability to play a full professional season yet.
He being 23 isn’t that terrible since he spent 4 years in college, but he does have some potential. I mean, he was drafted in the first round, so somebody saw something.
And I’m not saying that I think he’s a highly-sought-after prospect. I’m saying the Caps are positioning him as someone worth taking as a part of a deal to get them what they need.
I mean, he was drafted in the first round, so somebody saw something.
Finley (and Pokuluk) harken back to George’s size-queen days, and thank god they’re done.
back to cool special
by bigonetimer on Sep 15, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
That would be amazing, but I could clearly see in 2 days of development camp that Finley couldn’t make decisions quickly enough.
by red army line on Sep 15, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
If we can get him to fight a few 16 year olds maybe we can send him to NYR.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
by Rob Parker on Sep 15, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
It’s just you – he has zero trade value.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Sep 15, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Unless you write for a blog that has “Frozen” in the title, and you think he’s the second coming of Rod Langway.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Box Seats Blog
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 15, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Finley was drafted (in 2005) for an entirely different game of hockey. The game in which he might have thrived is no longer played in the NHL — clutch-and-grab, physical abuse in the crease, smaller offensive zone.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Sep 15, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I think he could theoretically play in today’s NHL and be effective – see Hal Gill and Zdeno Chara for example. I just think it’s a matter of working on his skating and positioning.
Let’s not forget that he’s still younger than McNeill, Miskovic, Yeo or any other defensive prospect on the Bears.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I thought his decision making in the two days of development camp I saw was too too slow.
by red army line on Sep 15, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Decision making is something that should theoretically get better with experience. Gill suffered with the same problem.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I’ll take your word for it, but I meant that even if he made the right choice it was happening too slowly. I think right vs wrong improves over time like you said, but I’m not so sure about speed.
by red army line on Sep 15, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Not if the poor decision making is rooted in poor hockey sense.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Gill used to look atrocious at times, as did Chara. The difference between those players and a guy like Mike Green (who also used to make his fair share of boneheaded errors), is that Green had the speed to recover from his mistakes.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I’m so lost right now. How is Green being compared to Chara and Gill? Further, how does this even address my point? I’m saying that if Finley has poor hockey sense his decision making won’t improve much. I don’t know what his hockey sense is like, but it’s not a simple “coach him up” situation.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
It’s pretty simple: all young players make mistakes. Some make more than others – that’s where hockey sense comes into play. Fast/quick players (like Green), however, recover from their mistakes better than slow plodders like Gill and Chara. This is, in part, why bigger/slower defensemen take longer to “develop” – they simply need to garner enough experience to stop putting themselves in situations where their opponent can take advantage of their lack of speed.
In this case, Green was simply an example of a quick/fast player who makes mistakes, whereas Chara/Gill were examples of slower players. My theory is that, provided Finley isn’t a total cementhead, he ought to be able to learn how not to put himself in vulnerable positions as he garners experience. He’s never going to be fast, so he’ll have to get smart(er).
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I don’t think Green belongs in this conversation, so let’s move on from that.
Chara and Gill are exceptionally smart hockey players. If Finley is, then he has a chance. I’m not sure he is or isn’t smart enough. I also think both Chara and Gill are more skilled than Finley, but we’ll so how his hard work pays off. It’s telling that even in their raw states Gill and Chara were still NHL caliber players, while Finley is ECHL.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
It’s telling that even in their raw states Gill and Chara were still NHL caliber players, while Finley is ECHL.
I couldn’t agree more, but I think if you read my comment below on Gill, you’ll note that when those two were raw, it was the late 90s and the NHL was a very different place. Big, lumbering defensemen could get away with a TON. Even still, Gill used to look foolish often.
I’m not saying we’ve got another Chara or Gill on our hands, I’m just saying he could potentially replace Erskine for less money in a couple years. That’s worth holding onto, when dealing him would net us essentially nothing.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Well we agree on the essential point, that there is no reason to jettison Finley yet. I also realize the difference between the 90s and today, and I appreciate the importance. But still, ECHL? If Finley was playing in the AHL (where a lot more clutching, grabbing, and general goonery goes on, all what you’d expect his strong suits to be) then I’d be a little more optimistic. We’ll see how he does this year, but I don’t think the drop from 90s NHL to 2009-10 ECHL is explained by the rule changes alone.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
But still, ECHL?
No arguments here. He looked pretty bad when I saw him in the Frozen Four, but he should have spent some time in Hershey last year, had he not been injured. I think the position switch hurt him, as did the attempt to turn him into an enforcer.
Anyhow, I’m not defending the choice to draft him, nor going nutty over his upside. I just think that, at this point, keeping him and hoping he can be an Erskine-type defenseman is the smart play and not totally unrealistic. Like you said, it’s not as though he’s scavenging ice time from top prospects.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I’m not buying him in the AHL at any point last season. That D was very deep and very young. There was no reason for them to take a slower, worse, rookie just because. Who does he jump? Not Carlznerson. Not McNeill. Miskovic? Doubtful. Helmer? No chance. He could have gotten a look when both Carlznerson were called up that one time, but I still doubt it.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Wellar, Amadio, Yeo, Godfrey, Grant Lewis, Sean Collins, Grant McNeill – I’m not saying he was better than all those guys, but most of them got significant time with the Bears last year and I’m thinking Finley would have as well, had he been healthy.
On the other hand, one of the upsides of having a farm team like the Bears is that your young players get used to winning, but one of the downsides is that the team likes to win and prefers to play veterans rather than “projects” like Finley.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
When I look at Finley, I automatically compare him to Hal Gill, because their size and development (four years of college) are quite similar. The difference is that Gill played with the Bruins as soon as he left college – he didn’t need to be stashed in the ECHL for a year or two. On the other hand, I think it needs to be said that this was the NHL in 1997-98; the game was MUCH slower back then and clutching and grabbing were acceptable defensive tactics. Even with these advantages, Gill often looked like a pylon when he played for the B’s, and his idea of a breakout pass was a dump off the glass and out to center ice.
Still, I must give Gill credit for turning himself into a good defensive defenseman. If Finley could give us 75% of Gill in two years for 750K, I wouldn’t mind seeing him as our 5/6 in lieu of someone like Erskine. In essence, he’s a project worth being patient on, since he’s still younger than all of our defensive prospects at the AHL level.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Plus, why give up on him? We won’t get anything back from him, he’s not keeping blue chip prospects from getting a look, and there’s very little opportunity cost to keeping him. Low risk, low reward.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Further proof that Matt Bradley is one funny guy.
"HISTORY DOESN’T MATTER!!! .... Who cares if it’s never been done? We aren’t those teams who failed before. We are in control of our own destiny, and we will make it happen our own way.." - A Gordon, June 2010
Matt Bradley is also 100% awesome.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
so awesome.
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Sep 15, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Q-stache
Solid find on the birthday and 9-game Caps career. I can tell you I have zero recollection of those 9 games.
Choking since 1985.
Q-stache, pre-stache
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Sep 15, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Man, the Rox had great uniforms back then…
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Sep 15, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Your “MOM’S BASEMENT!!@@!!” update of the day
Usual Suspects feels that if a blogger wants a place in a press box or dressing room environment there should be something more tangible at stake – say, a bond of $10,000 that a blogger would lose should a court or arbitrator find he or she broke professional standards or libel laws. Such a policy would sort out the valuable from the voluble in short order.
So would obliging bloggers to face their subjects from time to time. Taking shots at public figures from the grassy knoll and then sneaking away promotes a Dutch courage among many bloggers. It’s a point of honour for most MSM to show up after a tough column and let the subject have his say in person. Having to look Roberto Luongo or Dion Phaneuf in the eye after a critical column about them might produce some sober second thought amongst the bloggos.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Box Seats Blog
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 15, 2010 11:52 AM EDT reply actions
Dutch courage? That explains it. We all write columns when we’re drunk on gin!
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Sep 15, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder if he’s been taking notes on verbiage from that random 20’s reporter guy that the Caps had thrown out of the locker room?
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Box Seats Blog
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 15, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s a point of honour for most MSM to show up after a tough column and let the subject have his say in person. Having to look Roberto Luongo or Dion Phaneuf in the eye after a critical column about them might produce some sober second thought amongst the bloggos.
Ah, the tired old trope that bad journalists run out to defend themselves.
Basically, the problem as I see it is this: print journalism is dying (or dead, depending on who you ask), the remaining journalistic brand names are relying evermore on their digital halves. Unfortunately, for many the medium is the message – that is to say, stripped of the tangible evidence of their brand/credentials, journalists are left to hack it out with bloggers in the digital realm. Put another way: what’s the difference between a blog post by Tarik and one by JP? Not much, really. What it comes down to is the veracity of the information, the insight of the analysis and the skill of the writing. Someone like Tarik may have better sources and have gone to journalism school, but that doesn’t necessarily mean their opinion carries any more weight than that of the blogger. The masthead that used to privilege them with an imprimatur of superior knowledge means increasingly little in the digital age. This rightly scares the bejeezus out of them, so the scrounge around for all types of excuses to defend their eroding privilege. (FYI, I’m using Tarik as an example here because we’re familiar with him, it’s by no means meant as a criticism.)
“Only we have access to the players.” Not anymore.
“Only we have to look them in they eyes after writing about them.” Curious, then, that you’re complaining about blogger access, which would, perforce, make it incumbent on bloggers to do the same.
“Only we have journalistic integrity.” After watching the whole fracas regarding the blogger and Raul Ibañez last summer, and then watching this year as our favorite Toronto-area columnist trotted out essentially the same argument about Jose Bautista (to little or no fanfare… let’s just say I’m not buying that argument.
“Bloggers are nerds in their mom’s basement.”
The nerds in the basement are destroying their livelihood and it’s pissing them off. I humbly suggest to the dinosaurs that haven’t figured it out yet that they’re better off joining the revolution than fighting it. I think this community is a pretty good barometer of how some journalists “get it,” and others don’t. Those who “get it,” (I’d list Mirtle, Friedman, McKenzie and Corey in this group) don’t spend much time complaining about bloggers. They do their job, use every medium they can to get their message out and do a damn good job of it. The rest complain about bloggers instead, with predictable results.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Sep 15, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 11 recs
Because this theory totally keeps Larry Brooks from writing dumb things, and the same for the guy who questioned Andy Sutton’s “expertise”.
"Inglewood Jack! Inglewood Jack!" - Coach Jules
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Sep 15, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Been over to RMNB?
#needmoreBrads
Bradley signed the jersey and if you can’t read the quote “To Peter, I’d fight for you too!”
He never ceases to amaze me with his humor.
Bruce Boudreau when asked about Brooks Laich's return to the lineup, he said: "He just adds another dimension to our team. If it was puzzle, he just fits that thing. He completes us."
Brooks Laich completing everything from teams to tires and everything in between.
Matt Bradley is adding further honor to the #10 for the Caps: Kelly Miller, Ulf Dahlen…
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Sep 15, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Quote of the day
"I think this year is kind of do or die," Bradley said at Kettler Monday. "We have to make something happen."
Well, Duh! Talk about stating the obvious, Ya think?
Rangers finally re-sign Marc Staal. 5 Years, $3.975 Mil per. Great deal.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Sep 15, 2010 1:30 PM EDT reply actions
Sather making smart moves fucks with my worldview.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Sep 15, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
They were already over the cap BEFORE that deal. Now it’s time for the magical “who gets to go to Hartford” game
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Box Seats Blog
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 15, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Redden.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Sep 15, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Has to be. They’ve now edged Vancouver out for the highest excess payroll crown.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Sep 15, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
The Boogaard contract makes my head hurt so much.
My favorite stat of his is that Marty Brodeur has more career goals.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Box Seats Blog
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 15, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
CapGeek has a Trade Machine now!?
AWESOME.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Box Seats Blog
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 15, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Only 5 players on the Rangers make above $4M – Gaborik, Drury, Redden, Roszival, and Lundqvist. Redden is likely the odd man out there. That $1M overpayment to Boogaard is starting to hurt them.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
So does the $7M overpayment to Redden and Drury (combined, not each).
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Sep 15, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the better way to put that, is that there are only 5 Rangers who don’t have a Cap Hit of over a million (not counting Biron), and only one of those (Anisimov) is a guy on his Entry Deal.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Box Seats Blog
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 15, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I was looking at $4M because that’s what they have to dump. They have 24 players on their roster, so they could dump 2.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Matt Gilroy is still waiver-ineligible and will probably go down to Hartford. Mats Zuccarello-Aasen could end up in Hartford for a while as well, just to get acclimated to North American rinks and to make sure that a player of his size will hold up playing the more physical North-American game. There’s nearly four million in cap space. Also, depending on whether or not he outplays Tim Kennedy in training camp, Todd White could also find himself up in the Insurance Capital of the World.
Those 2 are $3.5M, according to capgeek – $1.75M each. That still leaves them $559K over. Todd White would be $2.375 – him and one of those two would be enough to get them under. That would drop them by $4.125M, which would give them about $70K in cap space.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Just repeat after me:
Wade Redden….Wade Redden…Wade Redden…
Remember, Sather actually traded Wayne Gretzky and got back Jimmy Carson and Martin Gelinas… yeesh…
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Sep 15, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
In Sather’s defense, he was pretty much forced to trade Gretzky. And Jimmy Carson dropped 55/52/107 they year before they traded for him. And 49/51/100 the next year.
He was flipped for Adam Graves, Joe Murphy, and Petr Klima, who were pretty instrumental in getting Edmonton their last Cup, so I’d say it was a good deal on his part.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Box Seats Blog
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 15, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Martin Gelinas, an almost Stanley Cup hero.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Sep 15, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
<a href=“http:// Talking with #Caps prospects Evgeny Kuznetsov and Dmitri Orlov ”http://sbnation.com/e/1451761" target="_blank">http://sbnation.com/e/1451761 " target="new">Extra special new content!
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Mother effer… new content this way: http://sbnation.com/e/1451761
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I’m sure glad that I don’t believe in signs.
Pft why play a small French guy when you have a Svensk viking.
Even when they’re everywhere? Blocking out the scenery or breaking my mind?
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Box Seats Blog
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Sep 15, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec’ing atcha live.
"#DCU is like senior prom. A bunch of people standing around waiting for a 17-year old to score."
by Bald Pollack on Sep 15, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Puck Daddy gets it
“Not sure if the makers of this Capital One commercial are puckheads, but the image of Alex Ovechkin carrying a giant weight on his back is, like, a Don Draper level of subtext for anyone tangentially familiar with the Washington Capitals’ recent playoff history.” OUCH!
“Incidentally, Alex Semin was supposed to help Ovechkin move McNabb in, but heard the Canadiens might be there so he didn’t show up.” Double OUCH!
I like Corey talking about Carlson potentially playing on the PP. Whether BB shares the wealth will be a big story for the season, and Corey is right on point that Carlson’s Calder chances are going to heavily rely on his PP time.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I think it’ll require shifting Ovie off the point somewhat.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Or using two units. Both of which I’ve advocated for quite some time. Both of which I find unlikely.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
After Game 5 of the MON series, Knuble was quoted:
"The power play’s got to amp up and that’s what cost us tonight. That’s [coach Bruce Boudreau’s] decision if he changes personnel. I would expect as a player that there’s going to be some shakeup in the power play. And this is something that will give at some point. But a power play can’t go 1-for-24 in a series and expect that things will stay the same."
Meanwhile Boudreau is citing a lack of effort:
"I also don’t think we’re getting 20 guys playing. We are only getting 13 or 14 guys every night rather than everyone coming to play."
Knuble sounds like an adaptive coach, while Boudreau sounds like he’s grasping at straws.
by S h a g g y on Sep 15, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Vogs blogs about Belanger
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
Great response. If Belanger really is Tacopina’s only client, that’s not going to change anytime soon. The Caps may not look good coming out of this, but Tacopina has to look at least as bad. Terrible management of the situation from day 1. I wonder how Belanger ever ended up with that guy. Seems an odd match.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I was wondering that, too. Belanger’s not a newbie; why go with the untested agent?
John Carlson - Glory follows him.
Six Beers Too Many Fantasy Team - BizNasty's Hobo Rodeo
He’s not from NYC, he didn’t play in NYC, the agent doesn’t appear to have any background that would have led him into contact with Belanger (I don’t see any MN or Quebec background). Something must have happened but it’s a bit perplexing. I’m sure Tacopina will continue to solicit clients, I’m just not sure how exactly he’s going to explain this one. Taking a player from a 2 year deal for 3 mill to a one year deal for 750K on a worse team… not exactly a player’s dream.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
not exactly a player’s dream.
But the golf and the weather during the season can’t be beat.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
Agent is a friend of a friend perhaps? Wild shot in the dark on that one.
"It's always good to have vikings."
For some reason, reading this tonight was amusing – Contract Negotiation on Madison Avenue Sports and Entertainment’s website.
As was mentioned earlier in the thread, other Tacopina clients include Drury (based on an article about Tacopina) and David Desharnais along with some younger players/prospects.
I don’t recall who Belanger’s last agent was but his last contract was a three year deal negotiated in the summer of 2007 with Minnesota so as far as contract negotiations go it had been a few years.
Looks like he’s got some folks on the payroll who certainly know the sport and the league. I didn’t realize Ed Horne was part of his organization.
Interesting, possibly only to me, was seeing Pat Dapuzzo’s name listed in the ‘Talent Development’ section.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
Yes, however, it was my understanding that Horne was the marketing guy.
Not just interesting to you. I’ve been on the site before today and noted the same.
That should read was/is a marketing guy. Anyway, for those interested, here’s a link to madavesports and one to the law firm website for background reading.
Some of his folks really need new photos.
Also, I see a Montreal office, so I guess that’s a big part of the connection. I wouldn’t mind getting in on the tax side of the business. Not for his firm, though. :-)
"It's always good to have vikings."
I’ll probably write more on this tomorrow answering some of these questions. Let me know if you guys have more.
It’s unfortunate the Capitals wouldn’t discuss this with me.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
by James Mirtle on Sep 15, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d like to know how common these oral commitments are, and how commonly they are broken. Do other agents generally take GMs at their word when they commit to signing a player (your article today indicates that at least one agent doesn’t do business that way). I’d also like to know if it’s generally accepted that teams and players will back out of a deal at the last second if something better comes their way (like with Nylander and EDM). Is this really such a unique situation that Belanger’s agent has a reason to be griping in the media, or does this happen relatively regularly and Belanger’s agent is just the guy to publicly complain.
I’d also like to know if, in your opinion or other agents’ opinions, the Caps are going to end up paying for this in future FA markets. Will this have any tangible impact on their ability to attract other players or is this just a cost of doing business in the NHL?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
by Rob Parker on Sep 15, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
F&B did a great job of asking most of the important questions, especially in terms of repercussions for the Caps.
Only thing I’d also want to know is what GMGM’s reputation is with agents, other GM’s, and players. Obviously, not everyone is going to agree. Just want to hear what a cross section of folks say.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
His griping about this could also have to do with the fact that he’s new to the business of being a player agent. So it could be business as usual, just not something he’s used to. And he’s letting his lobby through the media instinct take control (I thought I read somewhere that he has a tendency to do such things in his cases as a defense attorney, though I could be mistaken).
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Sep 15, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Not common. Definitely not common to have a verbal agreement drag on like this. I can’t name another time something like this has happened, but it could be that those details just never become public.
To clarify: Nylander took a worse deal with Washington than he was offered in Edmonton.
Many of the people I talked to for this story said the Capitals do have a reputation of being a bit cold in their business dealings. I wouldn’t be surprised if some agents have difficulty doing business with Washington.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
by James Mirtle on Sep 16, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
We say it often, but I’ll reiterate – thanks again for adding your input here. It’s invaluable..
John Carlson - Glory follows him.
Six Beers Too Many Fantasy Team - BizNasty's Hobo Rodeo
by boutros23 on Sep 15, 2010 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Let me echo this. Cheers. And today’s article really was very good.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 15, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Damien Cox condemning Ted for selling his own version of events as news is chokingly ironic when you consider the Bautista fiasco.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Sep 15, 2010 9:07 PM EDT reply actions
He does bring up a point that the Cap’s side of the story was only given to an employee of the team and not the outside press. Not to disparage Vog’s article; it just looks suspect. It would have been better if it had been given to Mirtle, or locally to Katie.
"HISTORY DOESN’T MATTER!!! .... Who cares if it’s never been done? We aren’t those teams who failed before. We are in control of our own destiny, and we will make it happen our own way.." - A Gordon, June 2010
Everyone knows Vogel’s version is slanted, just like Belanger’s agent’s version is slanted. Funny thing in this specific case there appears to be plenty of agreement on the basic facts.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
The only thing missing from Vogel’s piece is the part about the Caps organization helping him with his house lease and his kid’s schools – the “human interest” part that moves the conversation away from just about money to a man’s family. It’s a good narrative for Belly’s side, not so much for the Caps.
"HISTORY DOESN’T MATTER!!! .... Who cares if it’s never been done? We aren’t those teams who failed before. We are in control of our own destiny, and we will make it happen our own way.." - A Gordon, June 2010
Certainly better PR and even legal wise for Belanger. I’m still not sold it makes the Caps look all that bad to other players and agents though. If anything the whole thing just makes him and his agent look gullible/incompetent.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
Everyone's favorite hockey player twitterer chimes in
BizNasty2point0 -
Hope Caps give Belanger that $. I know alot of things we can do with an xtra shmill in da bank. Homeless people would b bawlin’ outa control </blockquote
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
Love the Biz, putting it all into perspective (I’m still laughing about him calling toilet paper “shit tickets.”
"HISTORY DOESN’T MATTER!!! .... Who cares if it’s never been done? We aren’t those teams who failed before. We are in control of our own destiny, and we will make it happen our own way.." - A Gordon, June 2010
skipped straight to the blockquote, and was sure you were quoting dan ellis..
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 15, 2010 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Japers' Rink
Related FanShots on Japers' Rink
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recent FanShots
The Vault
In Association With
Latest Puck Daddy - NHL from Yahoo! Sports
- Who are the Non-Smythe candidates for the Devils, Kings?
- End is near for Rick Nash, Blue Jackets as trade discussions set to resume
- Why the Devils and the Kings are evidence the Capitals shouldn’t trade Alex Ovechkin
- Eulogy: Remembering the 2011-12 New York Rangers
- Stanley Cup Final: 5 keys for New Jersey Devils and Los Angeles Kings
