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Ranking the Capitals: #24

In an effort to beat the summer doldrums, we're undertaking to rank - with your help - the Washington Capitals (only players under contract will be considered). The criteria is simple: who at this moment is the most valuable player in the organization who hasn't already been ranked? Put another way, if you could only keep one of the remaining players - because of what he brings on the ice or off it, his upside, what he could fetch in trade, and so on - who would it be? Consider age, potential, contract status, organizational depth, etc. - it's your call. And after you vote and defend your selection in the comments, help us out and suggest a name to add to the next poll. [Note: here's a recap of last year's rankings; previous "Ranking the Capitals 2010" posts can be found here.]

Welcome Andrew Gordon to the list and Trevor Bruess to the poll...

  1. Alex Ovechkin
  2. Nicklas Backstrom
  3. Mike Green
  4. Alexander Semin
  5. John Carlson
  6. Semyon Varlamov
  7. Jeff Schultz
  8. Brooks Laich
  9. Karl Alzner
  10. Mike Knuble
  11. Eric Fehr
  12. Michal Neuvirth
  13. Tom Poti
  14. Tomas Fleischmann
  15. Marcus Johansson
  16. Jason Chimera
  17. Matt Bradley
  18. Mathieu Perreault
  19. Boyd Gordon
  20. David Steckel
  21. Braden Holtby
  22. Cody Eakin
  23. Andrew Gordon
Poll
Who's the next most valuable Cap?
John Erskine
55 votes
D.J. King
57 votes
Patrick McNeill
5 votes
Jay Beagle
10 votes
Anton Gustafsson
13 votes
Tyler Sloan
9 votes
Dmitry Kugryshev
24 votes
Francois Bouchard
6 votes
Zach Miskovic
5 votes
Trevor Bruess
2 votes

186 votes | Poll has closed

If this FanPost is written by someone other than one of the blog's editors, the opinions expressed in it do not necessarily reflect those of this blog or SB Nation.

Comment 62 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Comments

Display:

Erskine

I’m still a little surprised by Andrew Gordon winning the last round. His blog painted a picture of a thoughtful guy who might have a future in coaching. Sadly, on the ice, he’s an older, less talented version of Chris Bourque (with maybe an inch or so of added height). He could make the Caps one day, but he likely maxes out on the third line and is more likely to end up as a Matt Bradley type, but without the same speed or toughness.

Erskine may be suboptimal and cost about 400k too much, but he’s serviceable, and he’s currently our #6 defenseman. Barring a trade, he’s a lock to start the season on the roster, whereas Gordon is equally a lock to start the season in Hershey. Neither of them would bring back much in trade, so that argument is moot.

I could understand the argument for DJ King at this point, but I’m guessing that he’s going to be a healthy scratch as often, or perhaps more often, than Erskine.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 13, 2010 1:08 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

Erskine for me, too, and you’ve summed up most of the reasons why.

Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.

by SmallZ827 on Sep 13, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem with these last few rounds is that non of the choices are particularly exciting. It was a toss-up between Erskine and A. Gordon for the last round and this one. I went for A. Gordo last time because I wished the spring edition of the Caps had more of the cut-throat attitude that the Bears had as espoused by A. Gordo. So now I voted for Ersk.

"I’m very happy to hear the news," Ovechkin said when he heard about Backstrom's longterm contract--"because he’s one of the top centers in the world, one of my best friends and we want to play together for a long time. He’s a guy who wants to stay in one place and be comfortable and win, just like me. We talk all the time about playing together, and we talked after the playoffs about how we can win in Washington."

by capsyoungguns on Sep 13, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

No doubt, I’ve been voting Erskine for the last few rounds for exactly this reason. If Erskine goes down, Tyler Sloan is getting a sweater every night. Tyler seems to be a good guy, but he’s an adventure on the ice.

As long as we’re not talking about a guy like Gaborik, a guy who’s fast and can exploit the fact that Erskine isn’t, I’d rather have 4 on duty than 89.

"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box

by Knee high to a duck on Sep 13, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Except that if Erskine goes down it only puts Sloan in the lineup on paper. Like 4th line Fs, there are bottom pair D, and Mike Mottau, still available that could fill in for Sloskine.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Sep 13, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

True, but at this point, Erskine’s contract is a sunk cost, and I think he’s staying with the team as a 6/7 guy. If we could bring in someone like Mottau and slide him down to a #7 guy and send Sloan back to Hershey, that would be great, but it hasn’t happened yet.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 13, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s just back to the difference in our perspective. You’re still looking at it as win now so you want the guys that will contribute the most this year. I’m looking at players that might not be replaceable. There really arent’ any of those guys left, but a couple might have upside above the NHL players on the list. I understand that if Erskine goes down and we don’t replace him then we are in some trouble, but I think he’s so easy to replace that it’s not worth a vote. The Caps haven’t replaced him because they haven’t had to. We don’t know what GMGM has been doing (Is he really happy with how the roster looks and ready to go into the off-season? Is he trying to get Mottau or another depth D to take a cap friendly deal? Is he working on trading to bring in some help at D?) but I suspect he’s aware of the concerns we all have and that by the time the playoffs roll around we won’t have to be worried about Sloskine getting a sweater.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Sep 13, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Understood. I’m also putting more weird on experience as well. I just don’t vote much for people who have had 0 NHL games. (I was teetering on Erskine or King myself).

I mean, just hypothetically if you were in a game 7 right now and had to chose between putting in Sloan as D or someone else we just drafted who probably hasn’t even played any games with hershey) then I’d take Sloan. No doubt over the next year, the other names, for me, will mean more.

by Brainumbc on Sep 13, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

More weird… WEIRD?

Damn I cannot type today.

by Brainumbc on Sep 13, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Son of a bitch. I even replied to the wrong post. UGH!

by Brainumbc on Sep 13, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I mean, just hypothetically if you were in a game 7 right now and had to chose between putting in Sloan as D or someone else we just drafted who probably hasn’t even played any games with hershey) then I’d take Sloan

My problem with this logic is that people used it last year to justify why “established” NHL players were more valuable than Carlson or Alzner. Sure, neither of those guys was ready, but then, as now, those guys were still much more valuable because of their potential. Obviously there is nobody of that caliber left on the list, but I’m still weary of the “proven or unproven” lens of analysis.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Sep 13, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

to justify why "established" NHL players were more valuable than Carlson or Alzner

touche’

by Brainumbc on Sep 13, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

but I’m still weary of the "proven or unproven" lens of analysis.

I agree with you when we’re talking about the Alzner’s and Carlson’s of the world, but if we’re not talking about a blue chip prospect I have to disagree. Many of the “unproven” players the Caps have in the system (especially those that remain for this exercise) will never get a sniff at the NHL-level.

by Yoshietree on Sep 14, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

I bet last year people would have put Chris Borque up there by now.

Poor guy. Got shipped off to the KHL didn’t he? Anyone know what kind of salary he’s making out there?

Maybe he’ll learn some of that Russian style, come back, and smoke both teams that shunned him last year :)

by Brainumbc on Sep 14, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I acknowledged as much. But I’ve also been pretty clear the whole time that I don’t value 4th line/6D guys very much. The only guys I value less than those guys are the guys whose upside is 4th/6th. Those are guys like Bruess.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Sep 14, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with almost everything you’re saying, except for the fact that I’m rating these guys based on what we’ve got on the roster now. The “replace-ability” of players factors in somewhat, but none of the remaining prospects looks anything like an impact player – they’re just as replaceable as Erskine, but they’re further away from the NHL.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 13, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d be delighted if Mottau was filling in for Erskine, especially if that was at opening night.

"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box

by Knee high to a duck on Sep 13, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

on the ice, he’s an older, less talented version of Chris Bourque (with maybe an inch or so of added height)

he likely maxes out on the third line and is more likely to end up as a Matt Bradley type, but without the same speed or toughness

Gordon is equally a lock to start the season in Hershey

Damn, dude, sell a guy short a bit, will you? Where the hell is this all coming from? I’m the kid’s biggest booster, and I’m the first to say I don’t know the kid will succeed — how can you possibly be so sure he’ll fail?

All I know is his career trend has been steadily upward. That’s going to peak sometime, but I don’t know how you can possibly tell it was last year.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Sep 13, 2010 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seems pretty familiar…

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Sep 14, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I went Sloan. Just because he’s a good guy to have on call up in a pinch

by Brainumbc on Sep 13, 2010 1:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Sloan is not good. His versatility makes him somewhat more valuable, but he really shouldn’t be playing in the NHL. Erskine would be a decent 5/6 on many teams, just not teams that have Stanley Cup aspirations.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 13, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think he’s good either. But I’m just trying to think like a manager or a coach. Or just from a business perspective of any job. If you’re a manager where you work, and you’re loaded with people that are talented, but have specializations, it’s also good to have someone that doesn’t neccessarily excel at anything, but has a good enough grasp of multiple fields.

You might not want him to be a key player on your project, but you’ll likely need someone that you can get to fill in just about anywhere in a pinch.

by Brainumbc on Sep 13, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Guys like this can have their place on great teams (Eric Messier and John Klemm from the Avs’ 2001 Cup team both come to mind, as does Byfuglien from the Hawks), however, all of those guys actually did one thing pretty well. Messier was a good grinding forward/penalty killer/shot-blocker. Klemm was a good stay-at-home defenseman. Byfuglien is a good power forward. Their “other” talent is a bonus, not the reason they’re in the NHL. Sloan really isn’t a good winger, nor is he a good defenseman. He can skate fast in a straight line. That’s about it. His ability to swing between positions is his only raison d’etre, because he’s worse than mediocre at both.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 13, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know I know.

But when someone has a first shift ever in the NHL like the way Sloan had, it’s not hard to think that he CAN be a descent NHL calibur player if he just the right things (learns to focus, practicaes more, gains more wisdom).

Either that or that massive hit was just a fluke. Personally I think that shift showed what one hungry mofo that wants to prove himself can do so you know he’s capable. But at the same time,having someone SO inconsisten is a bad thing in itself.

I think if Perreault gets a full time Caps jersey this year, we can probably see better from Sloan.

by Brainumbc on Sep 13, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Sloan has to rely on MP getting a sweater to look good, isn’t that a problem?

Sloan has skated enough shifts from his first one to make me confident that we’ve seen what we’re getting from him. The first shift was the fluke, not the subsequent 100s of shifts he’s taken.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Sep 13, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

isn’t that a problem?

Yea. but not everyone can have future superstars to pick from when they need to call people up for injuries. I think Sloan would be omre valuable to another team who has one of the crappier AHL teams. I think a teenie bit of his bad image comes from the fact that most of the AHLers we had to call up also happen to be half the Calder candidate list.

Lets try this instead. Game 7 vs Montreal. Someone is injured and MP is in 3rd line center. And you had to pick between Erskine and Sloan. it would at least be a tough call.

by Brainumbc on Sep 13, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Erskine. This mostly reflects how low I am on Sloan.

For you DJ King lovers out there, I would put the o/u on NHL games he plays this season at 21. On Erskine I would put it at 60.

"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"

by MikeyGreen on Sep 13, 2010 2:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Over. Easy.

O/u on playoff games? 0.5 (and I’m taking the under).

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Sep 13, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I wanna bet at MikeyGreen’s sportsbook. There is no way he’s only dressing one out of every four games. Waaay over, barring injury, which with King is very possible considering the last two years. But he appears healthy, and based on GMGM’s comments at the time of the trade was not acquired to be sitting in the press box.

by Cluster on Sep 13, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Over by quite a bit. If any forward gets injured, King plays. If the Caps play a team where fighting is a strong possibility, King plays. Probably closer to 40. Erskine will likely get 60+, unless another dman is brought in.

Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.

by timmyv38 on Sep 13, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

a) there is a reason I dont have a sports book, I make bad lines
2) the “barring injury” should factor into any o/u games played line
iii) you have to think that if a scoring line guy gets hurt we call up a scoring forward type much of the time rather than dress DJ to play Matt Bradley on a scoring line
IV) DJ King in his 4 NHL Seasons played: 27, 61, 1, 12 games

"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"

by MikeyGreen on Sep 13, 2010 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

If a 1st/2nd line winger gets hurt, I think Fehr moves up to their position, Brads moves to 3rd, and King is on 4th – I should have specified above about the player being a winger. The Caps have so many wings who can play on a scoring line that they wouldn’t need to call anyone up. And when you look at King’s GP, there are two factors to consider. First, there were two times that he suffered freak injuries. Second, the Blues had another player much like him, in Cam Janssen.

Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.

by timmyv38 on Sep 13, 2010 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I feel like DJK isn’t getting any love (with the posts) only because no one has seen him in a Caps sweater, yet.

by Moonage Daydream on Sep 13, 2010 3:12 PM EDT reply actions  

King is pretty much a known quantity though. He’s an enforcer with limited skill. He was brought in to counter the additions of guys like Boogard and Shelley to the conference, as well as to deter behavior like the Downie incident. He’s probably a better hockey player than Brashear was by the end of his tenure, but he has never played a full NHL season and hasn’t really scored whatsoever at any level, even in Juniors. He’s probably a fair bit better than some of the AHL’s famous pugilists, but not by enough to really matter.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 13, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Zero for McNeill?

I may have voted for Erskine, but zero votes for McNeill? Really?

The guy was second among Bears defensemen in scoring last year. He’s already better than Miskovic, and he’s two years younger to boot. If a couple Caps defensemen go down, I could see him as the first callup from Hershey. Heck, if he plays well enough in camp, he might even be able to crack the opening night lineup.

He’s a better prospect at this point than pretty much anyone remaining on the list (Kugryshev and Gustafsson may have more upside, but they both appear much less likely to reach their ceilings), and he’s closer to the NHL than all of them.

Screw it. I’m changing my vote to McNeill.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 13, 2010 3:47 PM EDT reply actions  

You probably needed to hit refresh. As of the time you posted this I had already voted McNeill. Pretty much for the reasons you listed plus my approach I’ve previously outlined (that his potential ceiling is above 6D so he may end up being tougher to replace).

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Sep 13, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

And right now he’s recovering from shoulder surgery (!)

The thin blue line is a little thinner.

You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!

by EmilyB on Sep 13, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

How can you possibly dump all over Andrew Gordon and then tout McNeill? I don’t get your ranking system at all. They’re both low-rank prospects who have shown a steady improvement every year, to the point that they really turned some heads last year. They’re very similar players, in terms of the pace of their development and their potential upside (A. Gordon as a 3rd line wing, P. McNeill as a 3rd pairing D in the NHL). Most importantly, they’re both incomplete prospects who need a little more time before we can really assess how good they can be. How can you possibly know that one will be better than the other?

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Sep 13, 2010 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

How can you possibly dump all over Andrew Gordon and then tout McNeill?
They’re very similar players, in terms of the pace of their development and their potential upside

Your first question has a pretty easy answer, and it lies in your second statement. Gordon is two years older than McNeill – their development path is therefore quite different. Two years is an eternity at their age development wise. Gordon’s at the point where he ought to be playing well in the AHL, as he’s no longer a boy amongst men. McNeill is younger and playing a position that traditionally takes longer to learn. Gordon has shown progression every year, but his big jump came last year when he started playing with Aucoin and Giroux, so I’m a bit skeptical about whether his stats from last year will translate. McNeill has shown a similar progression, but without the obvious inflation that might come from playing with vastly superior teammates.

Beyond the raw talent level and stats, there’s the matter of position and organizational depth. Gordon plays the least important position on the ice, and it’s a position where the Caps are presently stacked with players. McNeill plays a much more important position and, after the promotion of Alzner and Carlson, our defensive prospect cupboard is pretty bare. Orlov looks talented, but he also sounds like a bit of a project in his own end, and he’s likely a few years away. Miskovic is, like Gordon, two years older than McNeill, and not as good.

I’m obviously a fan of Chris Bourque, but that fandom aside, he put up better stats than Gordon at every stage and did so at a younger age. He scored almost twice as many points per game last year as Gordon, while playing with lesser teammates on the second line. And yet he didn’t sign a contract here because he didn’t think he’d get a chance to play in DC. Gordon is older and less talented and plays the same position. His only real advantage is that he’s a bit taller and, from the tenor of his blog, probably a fair bit more intelligent. Those are real advantages, but if guys like Chris Bourque don’t think they could make this team, then it’s an uphill battle for a guy like Gordon (or Perreault, for that matter).

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 14, 2010 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

His only real advantage is that he’s a bit taller and, from the tenor of his blog, probably a fair bit more intelligent.

And he could be successful as a grinder. He kills penalties. That’s huge to me. Gordon is a much more versatile player, who can help you a lot more ways, than Bourque. He also goes to the net — Bourque is more of the pure-skill type. If Bourque can’t crack the top two lines, he can’t help you (and right now on the Caps, he can’t).

As far as development, they’re less than 15 months apart — that ain’t two years. Gordon was in the 2004 draft; McNeill is the 2005. Gordon went to college; McNeill went the Juniors route. As a result, McNeill has actually played more games (listed on HockeyDB) than Gordon since the 2004-05 season. I just don’t see them as far apart in development at all.

Gordon plays the least important position on the ice, and it’s a position where the Caps are presently stacked with players.

Looking ahead to the players currently under contract for next season, it looks to me like Gordon is currently #2 on the RW depth chart. If you disagree, name them. After Fehr and Gordon, who is there? McNeill won’t crack the top 4 on the Caps — he projects to be a 5 or 6 who plays on the 2nd PK. Gordon could be the 3rd line RW, and I think he could be really good in that role. Sounds like these are two guys who are roughly the same value to me.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Sep 14, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

And he could be successful as a grinder. Bourque is more of the pure-skill type.

In the time I’ve watched both players in Hershey, Bourque struck me as a player whose future was as a 3rd line “pest”-type player who could chip in 15G/20A a year – sort of a less-douchey Matt Cooke. His speed and willingness to be physical, in my mind, would allow him to play in either the top or bottom six rotation.

they’re less than 15 months apart — that ain’t two years.

Gordon: Dec 13, 1985
McNeill: Mar 17, 1987

I don’t know what sort of math you use, but that’s pretty damned close to two years in my book.

As a result, McNeill has actually played more games (listed on HockeyDB) than Gordon since the 2004-05 season. I just don’t see them as far apart in development at all.

This is actually a pretty good indictment of Gordon. If they’re as close developmentally as you claim, despite the two year age difference and McNeill playing the far tougher position, doesn’t that say something about their relative qualities as prospects?

Looking ahead to the players currently under contract for next season, it looks to me like Gordon is currently #2 on the RW depth chart.

Two problems with this analysis. 1) While the Caps won’t re-sign all of their UFAs, they’re likely to re-sign a couple, so the lack of guys under contract is a bit misleading, because Laich, Knuble, Flash and Semin all spend time at RW. 2) The Caps have been known to shift guys around between forward positions, particularly from LW to RW and vice-versa.

Looking at the defense next year, we’re losing both Erskine and Poti (barring extensions for either), and we’re already short on NHL-caliber defensemen. In my opinion (and that of other observers), McNeill is likely next in line.

In the final wash, it comes down to how you see the player and where you see them fitting in the organization. I think McNeill could well be a Brian Pothier-type defenseman who’s slightly better in his own end. I think he could fit in as a 5/6 who gets occasional power play time. Gordon, to me, looks like a Brian Willsie-type – he’s the kind of player who could be a regular NHL-er on a rebuilding team, but his long-term future is likely as an AHL star who gets occasional cups of coffee.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 14, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gordon: Dec 13, 1985
McNeill: Mar 17, 1987

I don’t know what sort of math you use, but that’s pretty damned close to two years in my book.

Total effing math failure on my part. This is why I shouldn’t post while I’m busy doing ten other things that actually require my attention. I feel completely moronic that I just noticed this now.

Feel free to tell me I’m an idiot.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 14, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

On the math front, that’s 1 year & 4 months approximately. I guess it was the years that got you thrown off.

Rocking the Red since 1975

by CapsFan75 on Sep 14, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think he figured it out on his own.

"I’m very happy to hear the news," Ovechkin said when he heard about Backstrom's longterm contract--"because he’s one of the top centers in the world, one of my best friends and we want to play together for a long time. He’s a guy who wants to stay in one place and be comfortable and win, just like me. We talk all the time about playing together, and we talked after the playoffs about how we can win in Washington."

by capsyoungguns on Sep 14, 2010 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions   3 recs

at first i thought this was gouldie replying to d’ohboy, and my whole world went off its axis as i tried to figure how in the hell my math teachers had failed me growing up.

by Natty Bumppo on Sep 14, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah. I hate it when there’s an interesting conversation on here and I’m busy at work. I had two presentations to push out today and a event to attend on the Hill. I was commenting in the occasional breaks I got. I saw 85 and 87 and didn’t figure that Gordon was essentially an 86 baby.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 14, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

no worries, CapsFan75 cleared it all up for us.

by Natty Bumppo on Sep 15, 2010 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions   3 recs

While you’re on the Hill, feel free to ask the Committees not to mark our JSF money. Pretty please.

by Cluster on Sep 15, 2010 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve got some great off-line commentary for you. Check your email some time today.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 15, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Age doesn’t equal development, necessarily. CBo left college early and started in the AHL at a very young age. Gordon and Miskovic played at least 3 years in college. McNeill finished his stint in the OHL. Gordon and Miskovic took the slowest development paths while CBo took the fastest.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Sep 14, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Age doesn’t equal development, necessarily.

While this is true, pretty much every analysis of player development uses age as the baseline, then works from there. Development paths are all unique to some degree, but age, and the physical and mental development that come with it, generally apply equally across the board. Holding all else equal, if I observe two hypothetical prospects with similar skills and statistics, I’m taking the younger one every time unless there is some obvious reason (such as injuries) for the developmental gap.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 14, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, if you stipulate that all else is equal then you can make a conclusive judgment that younger is better. I specifically am not holding all else equal. Different development paths take different times. This isn’t even just an argument that Gordon might be a late bloomer (which itself could be valid, if untestable); this is saying specifically that players that go the NCAA route tend to develop less quickly. CBo left college after one year and immediately began a pro regimen. Therefore he should have been a more developed, better hockey player at a younger age than you’d expect from Gordon, who took the scenic route.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Sep 14, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

But now you’re shifting the argument. I don’t have any problem with someone saying McNeill is more valuable than Gordon. We’re at a point where there’s a bunch of players who are hard to assess. The problem I have is with the inconsistency of dumping on Gordon votes as having been unreasonable in round 23, and then touting McNeill in round 24. All I’ve been trying to say is that the two players are very similar in terms of value at this point in the exercise.

Obviously, we’ve already moved on to 25, but back in 23 when we voted Gordon in, I think Gordon, Erskine, McNeill, Beagle or Kuger would have been reasonable votes. Of all those, I see Gordon as the most likely to contribute in a significant way to the NHL club — and it helps that if he makes it he’ll probably do it this year or next (unlike Kuger). But I can definitely see someone feeling that way about McNeill.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Sep 15, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

How am I shifting the argument?

We’re both saying that one player (in my case McNeill and in your case Gordon) is more likely to have an impact on the Caps’ roster in the future. Our assessments are based in part on their performance displayed thus far and their potential for future growth.

I am simply pointing out that, if you hold all other aspects equal (which, obviously, they aren’t), McNeill’s younger age would tend to suggest that he’s further from his ceiling and therefore has more room for growth.

Add to this the fact that he plays a more valuable and more difficult-to-master position, and his potential future value becomes even higher.

back in 23 when we voted Gordon in, I think Gordon, Erskine, McNeill, Beagle or Kuger would have been reasonable votes. Of all those, I see Gordon as the most likely to contribute in a significant way to the NHL club

I think Gordon is reasonable, but I would put McNeill ahead. He’s younger, plays a more important position, and he plays a position where the club is currently a little weak outside of the NHL because of the ascension of Alzner and Carlson. Choosing Gordon isn’t absurd, I just put McNeill ahead of him.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 16, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

How are you shifting the argument? Because you’ve gone from this:

I’m still a little surprised by Andrew Gordon winning the last round…. Sadly, on the ice, he’s an older, less talented version of Chris Bourque (with maybe an inch or so of added height). He could make the Caps one day, but he likely maxes out on the third line and is more likely to end up as a Matt Bradley type, but without the same speed or toughness.

to this:

I think Gordon is reasonable, but I would put McNeill ahead.

If Gordon is a poor man’s Chris Bourqe — if he’s Matt Bradley without speed or toughness (i.e., basically useless), then it’s not reasonable to vote for him at 23.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Sep 16, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

If Gordon is a poor man’s Chris Bourqe — if he’s Matt Bradley without speed or toughness (i.e., basically useless), then it’s not reasonable to vote for him at 23.

How so? Look at the players around him. You’ve got a QMJHL scorer with work-ethic concerns who’s likely at least 2 years away. You’ve got a couple 7/8 defensemen. You’ve got a goon, sorry, ENFORCER. You’ve got a bunch of has-beens and never-weres.

Everything I said about Gordon still holds. He’s a slightly older, slightly bigger and much less talented version of Chris Bourque. He likely maxes out as a 3W, with a more likely result being that he could become a 4W who occasionally kills penalties.

Personally, I’d put a present #6 NHL defenseman (Erskine) and a potential future 5/6 NHL defensemen (McNeill) ahead of a guy who maxes out as a 3W, especially after seeing the contracts that role players such as Halpern have been getting recently. If you can get a guy like Halpy or Belanger or Comrie for well under $1m, why care all that much about a prospect who projects out as a grinder?

Still, compared to what’s left around him, voting for him isn’t crazy. I just don’t agree with it.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 16, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

To put a finer point on it, Gordon beat out two players who are locks for the roster (Erskine and King), and one who’ll likely make it.

To do that, he’s got to have some upside and a good chance to make the team. His upside is limited, I think you’ll agree. In terms of upside, he’s probably got less than Kugryshev, or even Bouchard. In terms of making the team, our bottom-6 forward situation is pretty cramped right now, so I don’t see that happening unless someone goes away or gets injured.

He’s a not-unreasonable choice in this round, but in the previous round, I was surprised that he won, given the aforementioned points.

'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...

by D'ohboy on Sep 16, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually think he has more upside than Kuger or Bouchard, who’ve never in their career done anything as impressive as 37 goals in the AHL. I think his upside is “damned good 3RW and penalty killer” and that’s more valuable than 6D, which (not 5/6D — 6D) is what I think McNeill maxes out at. But whatever, I’m done now.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Sep 16, 2010 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was debating between Erskine and King, and I ended up going with King. I don’t see any more prospects who are likely to have an impact this season, so to me it’s between the players who will be on the Caps. Sloan is by far the least valuable of the 3, and I think Erskine is more easily replacable than King. There are a number of UFA defensemen who are better than Erskine, but no UFA’s who can fight as well as King for as little money. Plus, King is the first legit fighter the Cap have had since Brashear – something that I think will prove useful. Whichever of the two of them is left after this vote will get my next vote.

Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.

by timmyv38 on Sep 13, 2010 11:30 PM EDT reply actions  

MacNeil again.

"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov

by Carl Putnam on Sep 14, 2010 10:34 AM EDT reply actions  

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