Question of the Day
Who is the most underrated Capital, past or present? Who is the most overrated? Which current NHLers, on any team, would hold those "honors"?
almost 2 years ago
Becca H
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Off the top of my head, the most overrated NHLer is Roberto Luongo, and most underrated is a toss up between Mikko Koivu and Ryan Suter.
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Concur with Luongo.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Ryan Suter is definitely up there.
I’ll add another defenseman that doesn’t get nearly the recognition he ought to – Chris Phillips. I think Jersey is going to regret bringing AV to town without Phillips backing him up.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’ll take your Chris Phillips and raise you a Kimmo Timonen.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Aug 9, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Timonen- Does his job does it well. Quietly underappreciated,
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
I had this argument at Pensburgh not too long ago; Timonen is hugely underrated for his role in PHI. All he does is produce results.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
You wouldn’t believe (well, you might) the amount of times Suter ends up saving Weber’s bacon, etc. He’s probably the single most ‘mistake free’ player I’ve seen in my time watching the sport.
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You know I love me some Ryan Suter. I wasn’t on the bandwagon until the Olympics, but I made a point to look out for him after that.
Whoa.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
yep
I’m consistently inconsistent on whether or not I want to see him and Weber split up.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Backstrom, underrated.
Spezza, overrated.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
Meh, most intelligent hockey circles always knock Spezza for one reason or another.Whether it be penalties, his disappearing acts, or effort level, he’s always got something weighing him down
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
Could it be the fact that he sucks balls?
He’s Flash with a little more skill. And he makes $7m. ZOMG.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Hmmm, that might contribute a lil bit.
Idk how Sens fans survive with the likes of Spezza taking up 7 mil
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
by shouting “I fucking hate you Spezza!” if the Sens fans who sat behind me last season are anything to go by.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
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Most overrated – Ilya Kovalchuk. Whatever the Devs end up paying – it’s too much.
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by EmilyB on Aug 9, 2010 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
There’s really not much else going on.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Yea… can’t blame the media for looking for something entertaining to report. But I think his skills are definately up there with the salary and respect he gets. Dude had 31 goals in 49 games with the Thrashers… plus he’s got what.. the SECOND highest goals per game average since the lockout?
He didn’t do that well with new jresey but I think like any other traded player, he needs to get adjusted.
It’s not his fault the media is all over his nuts and he’s not really asking for the spotlight a la’ LebRon.
Another reason I disagree with Ilya being “overrated”
Like a coach of mine once said, the best compliment you can give an athlete is to say that he’s consistent.
Kovy’s been pretty damn consistent his whole career. Even the “not so great” numbers in NJ were pretty good (1.0 pe game in reg season and 1.0+ in playoffs). He seemed to be getting “back in the groove” as the season winded down in NJ as well.
At present, Eric Fehr and Jeff Schultz for underrated. Possibly even Poti. Not sure about past…
Flash and Laich are overrated (and by that I only mean that there’s no way Laich is a suitable 2C).
I’ll have to think about the rest of the NHL…
I was going to say the same. I like Laich like no other — as a player and as a tire-changing development-camp-attending overall great person, but the expectations for him I think are just beyond where he can reach. The fact that it won’t stop him from trying is another feather in his cap, though.
"Inglewood Jack! Inglewood Jack!" - Coach Jules
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Aug 9, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmmm…hard to find “underrated” players on this team, since as of late every player has been accountable in eyes of most fans (in other words, when a team is playing well, more people tend to actually notice the contributions of even minor players that would otherwise go unnoticed on less popular teams). This of course can also make it harder for players to become “overrated”, at least in the eyes and mind of the home fans.
Underrated: I guess first off the top of my head would be Schultz, if for no reason other than many people tend to overlook his true value to the team. I also may want to put B. Gordon out there, for his contributions on the PK.
Overrated: Possibly Flash, at least in the eyes of his head coach…
"I am ready for his provocations"
by PaintDrinkingPete on Aug 9, 2010 1:15 PM EDT reply actions
Underrated Cap: Miller
Overrated Cap: Cicarelli
Underrated NHL: Okposo
Overrated NHL: Hurricane Staal.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I think overrated applies to Penguin Staal, too.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
P. Staal gets less love than his brother due to the fact he’s playing on a team with Malkin and Sid…and he is a damned good 3C (albeit one that is paid like a top line player).
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
albeit one that is paid like a top line player
That’s more or less what I meant.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Note that Eric Staal has an $8.25M cap hit through 2015-16. He’s a 70 – 80 point guy. He’s a good player that is paid like he’s super-elite.
Jordan is $4M through 2012-13. He’s 50 point guy (getting third line minutes, matchups, etc). He’s a good player that is paid like he’s very good.
That’s why I went with the Hurricane version of The Overrated Sod Farmers.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
We agree: that’s all that counts :-).
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Baby Staal (Jared) got good marks at Team Canada camp this week.
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Interesting. I had him pegged as a kid that was not going to pan out. Be interesting to see if he makes the team.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Jordan doesn’t get too much PP time. He plays tough competition and generally outshoots/outposseses it and does a pretty good job on the PK.
If you gave JS as much PP time as ES, I think you’d see a much closer point total. But even so, JS brings a lot more to the table than ES does aside from pure scoring. I’d far rather have JS than ES given their contracts and I’d even push JS more towards the underrated category than overrated.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I agree.
Staal uses a long stick (he he that’s what she said) for defensive prowess which means he basically doesn’t have a shot.
This year the idea is JS will be playing on a scoring line with Malkin. I’d expect he shifts into a more offensive role at even strength and gets more points. Also with Bill Guerin (presumably) gone, Staal could be getting top unit PP minutes.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Has his foot healed properly?
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
He had to have a 2nd surgery on it in June (was in crutches for the awards you might have noticed) but yeah, he’s 100% now and that should be no issue at all going forward.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
It amazes me the guy has played close to 330 games in the show, and hasn’t even turned 22 yet.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Inspired pick of Okposo… he is very underrated.
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 9, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Call me a homer but I think Backstrom might still be the most underrated player in the NHL. It’s hard to imagine after a 101 point season, but it’s true. It pains me to try to explain how many hockey fans I know that don’t appreciate his game because either a) he plays with Ovechkin b) he plays with Ovechkin c) HE PLAYS WITH FREAKING OVECHKIN d) they’re from Philadelphia.
(Sorry for the cheap shot, Philly, it’s been a horrific Monday)
by Alex Reed on Aug 9, 2010 1:18 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
rec-a-roni for “d” although option “c” was pretty amusing, too.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
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All time
underrated cap – pivonka. still the teams all time leader in assists. sylvain cote would be another.
overrated cap – i’m tempted to say yvon labre given is medocre career was capped by having his number retired. however, that was more for what he stood for and not his play on the ice.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
I believe you can go fishing with him if you like. Pretty sure it is the the Sylvain Cote, I vaguely recall his fishing business and Annapolis residence mentioned in a WaPo article 5-10 years ago.
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → b a (select) start
Oh…my…peace out, y’all, I’m going on a boat! :P
But seriously, I love him. Did anyone go to the jersey unveiling at Kettler a few years ago? The guy showed up in shorts and flip-flops, rockin’ his sunglasses, hamming it up for the crowd…I never knew he was such a goober. Makes me even happier to be the owner of a Cote jersey :)
It is the Sykvain Cote.
See here:
http://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/1984/84011.html All the way at the end of the Non-NHL Career Section
http://www.manta.com/c/mmgrmct/billfishing-international – Company profile
by Gin and Tonic on Aug 9, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s Sylvain Cote of course. And one of these days I’ll figure out how to use the Italic button properly.
by Gin and Tonic on Aug 9, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s a kids coach in Annapolis too.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Recently involved in the donation of hockey gear to youth in Baltimore as part of an NHL-wide street hockey promotion.
by Gin and Tonic on Aug 9, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Pivonka’s a pretty good choice for all-time underrated Cap . Two other guys that spring to mind within the last decade or so are Ulf Dahlen and Ken Klee. Dahlen came out of nowhere and provided stability for the checking line for a while and even played pretty admirably on the top line with Oates and Jagr one season, IIRC. I had a soft spot for Ken Klee and I’m not sure why. I remember him filling in at wing whenever we needed and he was always willing to sacrifice the body. I hated to see him go because I thought he was more important to the team than management realized.
Good call on both of them, actually.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
I have never been a Phaneuf fan. But he actually looked good for the Leafs at the end of last year.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
Amazing what a change of scenery will do for someone. he’s definitely got talent.
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Truth be told, I can see why the Leafs named him captain in the off-season.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
Not like there are a lot of other options.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
What? You mean you wouldn’t want Phil Kessel captaining the Preds? C’mon! ;)
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
Nuiverth is highly underrated. If he doesn’t supplant Varly this year as the Caps starter – look for him to sign elsewhere after the season as a clubs #1.
Federov – during his tenure with the Caps – was underrated. He was long past his prime but he was still a great #2 center.
As much as I hate to say it – Varly is probably pretty overrated right now. He had one excellent playoff run two years ago. Past that, he was mediocure (and got outplayed) in this years playoffs. Plus he spent a good chunk of the regular season on the DL. He still hasn’t proved he can stay healthy for 82 games.
Jagr was also overrated for years after he left Pittsburgh. He had some serious chemistry with Mario – yes…but when Mario retired his game took a serious nose-dive.
Disagree, Fedorov was unduly (most of the time) venerated during his time here. He was a HHS mess a lot of the time.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Yep. It’s not called “The 4 Million Dollar Goal” for nothing. Guy was finished as a major player a long time before he got here.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
My favorite goal of his was actually the one against Florida in the last game of the regular season his first year. Woweewoowa what a slap shot.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
I was at that game and can’t remember screaming louder.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Makes two of us. Except for maybe the $4 million dollar goal. Maybe that was just longer, not louder.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
That was a biggie.
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Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember the lady next to me (Caroline, she’s a Wings fan first, then Caps) shouting about 10 seconds before the shot “Come on Sergei, just like 10 years ago!” and then bang… in it goes past Anderson… great shot.
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--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 9, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
While he did take a bunch of HHT penalties, he was also still extremely good defensively. The problem wasn’t that he was in the box, the problem is that he was hurt all the time; Fedorov definitely still got results.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know if he was extremely good at anything. He filled in capably on defense during a rough time yes, but I think his contributions were overrated on the whole.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
I don’t have the time to do a full stat-bomb post on Sergei in 2008-2009, but suffice it to say that he looks very good in the advanced stats. If he’d played a full season with those numbers, you could make a good case for him being the most underrated player of that season.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m glad other people watch the games via stat sheets so I don’t have to doubt what my eyes see all the time and drive myself crazy with trying to quantify everything.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Quit being passive aggressive.
You seen him bad, I seen him okay, the advanced stats seen him really good. I use the stats to validate, or question, what I see on the ice. If that’s not your cup of tea, that’s okay, but I’m going to continue to use that analysis.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Varly was hardly mediocre in the playoffs this past season. Of goalies who saw at least 4 games, only Ryan Miller had a better GAA.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
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Jagr was also overrated for years after he left Pittsburgh. He had some serious chemistry with Mario – yes…but when Mario retired his game took a serious nose-dive.
Mario missed 97-98 through most of 2000-01, but Jagr led the league in points each of those seasons.
Jagr was also overrated for years after he left Pittsburgh. He had some serious chemistry with Mario – yes…but when Mario retired his game took a serious nose-dive.
I realize you were talking about post-Penguin years, but Jagr could perform without Lemieux. JJ won the scoring title all 3 years from 1997-98 to 1999-2000, during a Lemieux retirement And Jagr, statistically, had his 3rd best season (and 2nd highest) goal total in 05-06 at the age of 34.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Jagr was not overrated when he was with the Pens or Rangers, but he was when he was with the Caps….oy.
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--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 9, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Jagr tends to be underrated mostly. The guy put up some amazing numbers, like 62/87/149 in 95-96.
Dude put up 96 points in 63 games in 99-00.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Jagr’s like Albert Belle. His immaturity and personality issues make you forget how dominant he was for a while.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 9, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly. GREAT comparison.
Belle was an absolute monster.
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Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
The Albert Haynesworth of the Orioles.
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You’d be hard-pressed to find anyone who had as good a 5 year run as Belle did from 94-98
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Caps
Under: Konowolchuk
Over: Khristich (any praise of him was ill-deserved)
NHL
Under: Martin St. Louis
Over: Dan Boyle
Khristich is a good call as well. I remember clearly when his signing was announced between periods of a television game. He was supposed to be just fucking awesome. Big failure.
Every bursted bubble has a glory! Each abysmal failure makes a point! Every glowing path that goes astray,shows you how to find a better way. So every time you stumble never grumble. Next time you'll bumble even less!
I’ll throw a few names out there for the Caps historically:
Underrated – Dale Hunter and Olie Kolzig. Like some of the comments about Backstrom, I don’t think these guys got the respect they should have leaguewide for their leadership, longevity and overall play. Hunter ruined his reputations with the hit against the Islanders, certainly, but I still think he’s underrated.
Overrated – Al Iafrate (remembered for the mullet and the slapshot, but really did little else) and Doug Jarvis (ok – so he played a lot of games in a row, but what else might we have done with his roster spot?)
Every bursted bubble has a glory! Each abysmal failure makes a point! Every glowing path that goes astray,shows you how to find a better way. So every time you stumble never grumble. Next time you'll bumble even less!
Disagree with you on Jarvis. Good forechecking, grinding center, could score a little bit, also PK’d very well and very responsible at ES.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Totally agree with you on Iafrate Spidey. He could skate and he could shoot yes. But he also could be downright awful defensively enough to make you yell at your TV. Totally disagree with you on Jarvis. PK wise one of the best the Caps ever had. Would have loved to have prime-era Jarvis on our PK last year.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
Dale Hunter was one I considered for overrated, actually. Going back to our QotD last week, where we chose past Caps to come back and play for this team, there’s no way he’s a 2C on this team. He’s a good player, and he was grit-personified, but he’s not the end-all, be-all. He was good at what he did, but he’s likely not making this current team as anything but a 3C.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
You could go overrated or underrated with Hunter. As an offensive threat, overrated. As a pest/grinder, underrated. Hindsight being 50/50 (as ol’ ball coach put it) I’d lean toward overrated even though I think he was an awesome player that will likely never be equaled (300G, 3000pim)
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
In his prime he’s unquestionably a 2C for this team since the depth chart as it stands now is Backstrom///Steckel/Gordon. He’s good enough for 1000 points, he’s good enough for 2C in his prime.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Given the choice between a prime Dale Hunter, a prime Sergei Fedorov, and a prime Adam Oates (which was the point of the QotD), there’s no way I choose Huntsy.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Well no, of course not. But in his prime, he’s easily a 2C on this particular team. Oates was incredible and Fedorov was an MVP-caliber player for years. Oates gives Nick a stiff challenge for 2C, Fedorov outright takes it from him, but Hunter is entirely capable of playing 2C.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re right, and I didn’t explain myself fully in my earlier comment. I was thinking about, specifically, the choice between the three for some reason, even though it hadn’t come up. I agree that he could play 2C with this Caps team, given Feds/Oates aren’t also in the equation.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
disagree on jarvis. he won a selke award while playing for the caps. just my opinion, but i dont think he’s overrated at all.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
Jarvis was not overrated in any sense of the word. He was one of the three key players the Caps got in that trade (along with Langway and Laughlin).
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 9, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Underrated: For current Caps I’ll go with Boyd Gordon – he’s a guy that does all these little things but nothing too flashy, so you miss him when he’s not in the lineup (even if you don’t know why). And Backstrom, for reasons others have outlined; the kid is sickeningly talented and makes Ovechkin better but will probably never get the same respect as long as he’s playing w/ Ovie. I’m still waiting for an upcoming Caps-Pens game to be marketed as “Ovechkin and Backstrom vs. Crosby and Malkin” instead of just Ovechkin.
Overrated: I’m going to take some heat for this but…Gartner. Great guy, great player but I’m not convinced he’s deserving of having his jersey retired by the team. Had a really interesting discussion with my dad once about whether he thought Gartner’s lack of a Cup was because he played for the Caps or if it was the other way around – he was on the fence.
Bash away.
Oh, and Cote and Calle Johansson are tremendously underrated in my mind, especially the latter.
As for League-wide, I’d say that Eric Staal’s pretty overrated, as is Dan Boyle. Underrated I’m going with Zach Parise – the kid’s a superstar but won’t be seen as one as long as Brodeur’s in town. NJ’s not big on flashy stars in general but the only one they’ve ever seemed to have room for was Marty.
Oh, and now Kovalchuk. Poor Zach.
by Becca H on Aug 9, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Zach Parise is absolutely a superstar. Rec for that; he’s the second-best wing in hockey for my money. Unbelievably good at both ends of the ice.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
We had this discussion a couple weeks ago, and the consensus was Parise is definitely the 2nd best wing in the world. After that its probably Rick Nash, but its not that close.
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Rick Nash doesn’t get enough love for being as awesome as he is.
Dude was a one-man wrecking crew at the Olympics.
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Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I would place Nah above Parise but slightly. But then this could turn into a Canada-US debate which is not my intention lol.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
I’d put them at 2a and 2b, and I think on any given day the order can change – they have very different skill sets but are equally good at them. Parise’s the quiet, stealthy winger who can score and be defensively sound, Nash is the guy who will run you over and shoot the puck past you before you know what’s going on, kind of an Ovechkin-lite.
Love ’em both.
Parise is close enough on offense, and so far beyond Nash on defense that its much of an argument.
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I’m with you here, Parise is on my short list of Selke candidates.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Along with Zajac, right? ;)
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Bah! Parise carries that pair :]
But looking at the WOWY from ILWT, they look like they have legitimate chemistry together.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Rick Nash and Pavel Datsyuk would be the two most terrifying players I can think of in the 2-on-2 OT scenario. Nash uses his body to shield the puck so well, has such hands and such a shot. And he’s huge.
Datsyuk, is, well, Datsyuk.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I am glad someone put this up as I was waiting to scroll to the bottom and throw out some rick nash love. He is a top 5 forward in the league in my mind but if you were to poll the media I think he would slip down on plenty of lists. Was the best player on Canada in the Olympics IMO.
"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"
Nah, that was Jon Toews – but Nash was definitely good.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
I wouldn’t put Nash in the discussion for top 5 forwards, but he’s easily in the top 5 wings.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Ovechkin is clearly first, but after Parise and Nash it drops off drastically.
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Well, Hossa is pretty damn good. If he’s healthy, he’s a ~40g guy and he’s amazing defensively, too.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
This is true, but age is going to catch up with him soon.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Agree on Hossa. Very defensively responsible to boot. And I think Kovy might want to say hi. I really want to see Kovy with some actual linemate talent.
I’m not that enamored of Kovy. He shoots better than anyone in the league (seriously, how do those go in?) by a pretty wide margin, but I’m really wary of his defensive play and his turnovers.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
He shoots better than anyone in the league (seriously, how do those go in?)
That’s probably because he also has the best shot out of anyone in the league, by a pretty wide margin.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Ha.
More clearly, he shoots from places and situations that shouldn’t have any reasonable chance of making it in, but his shot is so good that they do.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I agree. Semin has a better wrister, but overall, Kovalchuk has by far the best shot.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Semin has a better wrister if he can get it off. That’s the key, Kovy’s nearly as fast and accurate and his release is a lot faster.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha, I have noticed how long it takes Semin to shoot.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Sasha’s already in the wind-up for a shot he’s thinking about taking Wednesday October 27th at the Hurricanes.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Okay, so basically how long it takes Boudreau to adjust his game plan.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Ziiiiiiing.
It’d sting less if it weren’t so accurate.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
This assumes Boudreau adjusts his game plan.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Aug 9, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Kovalchuk isn’t much of a drop from Nash, honestly, but definitely #4 of those 4.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I think if we’re including Kovy in this discussion, you also have to include Semin. He’s better defensively, can kill penalties effectively and is better at possession and play-making than Kovy is.
Kovy is the purer shooter (how weird does it sound to say that comparing someone with Semin?), but Semin is a more complete player.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
And if Kovalchuk and Semin, then Heatley, too?
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
St. Louis is a beast. It’s a damn shame he played his best years right before the lockout.
A lot of people are high on Stamkos, but he doesn’t sniff a share of the Richard without MSL making ridiculous passes on the PP right to his wheel hose.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see Heater in their class – he’s a shooter-type player in the same way that Kovy is, but he’s not as good at shooting.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d say he’s better at defense, though.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Not enough so to pull him up into that class, though.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Kovy I feel like is a better leader, and I’m probably more comfortable with him on the ice than Sasha if I want to be sure no penalties will be taken, and if I’m looking for consistent effort. But I’m down with Sasha in Top 5 consideration as well.
Yeah, but I’m more comfortable with Sasha on the ice against good players. Plus, Sasha draws as many as he takes – not ideal for a forward, but he’s not killing you, either.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s means you’re going to be dependent on your PP and PK though… I love Sasha, and he’s a favorite of mine, but I’m still wary of his tendency to take stupid penalties. If he improved some more this season, I’d take him way before Kovy.
I can think of worse things to be dependent on than a PP with Alex Semin on it. Guy is a scoring machine, even splitting time with the second unit.
I don’t think I’ve impressed how little I think of Kovalchuk’s play away from the puck and his ability to generate possession and quality chances for his team aside from his own shot.
The thing about Kovy, though, is that he’s a lot more durable than Semin. You’re much more likely to have him in the game for a given night. I’d love to see him work with a coach that could teach him to be at least a little defensively responsibile.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. He basically is the Blue Jackets.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
No one should be able to skate/move as well as Nash does, and be that big.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Underrated Capital – Mike Ridley
Overrated Capital – Michael Pivonka
Underrated NHLer (current) – Nick Backstrom
Overrated NHLer (current) – Cindy Crosby
I wouldn’t refer to myself as ‘new’, I just don’t know of a Cindy Crosby in the NHL.
Now, there’s a tough mofo from Canada who plays center for the Penguins, name kinda looks like Cindy, but no one would ever mistake him for a sissy. Ask Jason Spezza about that guy.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
by Chris Burton on Aug 9, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Whether you think he’s overrated or not is totally immaterial to the usage of the term ‘Cindy’.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
by Chris Burton on Aug 9, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
...
Yes, Sid is certainly overrated
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
That issue aside, I’m curious as to what the case for Crosby being overrated is. He does just about everything well, he does it consistently, and he produces.
Then again, I guess there is a pretty large contingent of casual hockey/sports fans who think he’s far and away the best player in the game, and that’s not the case.
I can’t think of any argument which results in him being overrated.
He’s certainly not far and away the best player, but we’d agree that he is the best player, no?
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Do we have another year to argue this?
You know it depends on the definition. Stats? Leadership? Cups? Build a team around? There is no right answer.
Saying Sid is overrated is the same as saying OV is overrated. Both are outstanding any team in the league would take them in a minute for their entire top line.
Every bursted bubble has a glory! Each abysmal failure makes a point! Every glowing path that goes astray,shows you how to find a better way. So every time you stumble never grumble. Next time you'll bumble even less!
Fair enough. I have no problem asserting that he’s the best player in the world, though.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Well, I think a little of it is subjective. I consider him to be among the top three or four players in the world – but personally I think Ovechkin’s better, and I have no reasoning behind it other than I just think he is.
The reality is people can throw out all the stats and scenarios and Cups they want, at the end of the day there are a few players who could be called “the best” and it’s kind of a personal choice.
I don’t know about that. I think you can make a clear argument for why Crosby is the best, but now isn’t the place or time to beat that dead horse.
The bottom line for me is a combination of team success, clutch performance, his position being more difficult, continued improvement, and incredible production.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
But can he wear funny hats and score a goal one-handed?
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Not sure, but he has slept with a Stanley Cup.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
It’s been made repeatedly. It’s also been made for Ovechkin, in terms of how much better he makes his team, how he’s produced consistently (and improved things like playmaking ability and defensive ability), the Hart and Pearson/Lindsay trophies, clutch performances in his own right, etc.
Yup. At the end of the day individual people will see what they want, and its close enough to where both arguments are believable.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
The best player in the world crown usually rotates nightly, I believe. There’s no one that stands out, just a constant one-upping by a handful of players.
Crosby’s marketed as the most visible active NHL player, if he laid eggs he’d be easily the most over-rated player in the game. But look at his track record in the big games (SO winner in Buffalo for the WC game, led league in goals playoffs ’09, OT winner for Gold in Olympics, etc) and he backs it up.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
He’s the best C and AO is the best W, either side. They do different things better than the other.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Crosby is slightly overrated. His is one of the best, but not the best. And part of how good he is comes from the Pens getting preferential treatment.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
And part of how good he is comes from the Pens getting preferential treatment.
Proof (or at the very least a coherent justification)?
It takes...something? Anything?!?
Last two seasons when the pens played at VC. The average ratio of penalties called was 3:1 Caps. And this is on home ice. Ridiculous. It would be different if Sid wasn’t the NHL poster baby. It would be different if the NHL HQ was in the US where it should be, seeing as how most of the teams in the NHL are in the US.
Yeah, if I’m in New York, I make Pittsburgh be the model franchise. Move along, naked profile.
It takes...something? Anything?!?
I think, however, that even a Pittsburgh fan would admit that the NHL bent over backwards to help Mario keep the Pens in Pittsburgh. They’ve been doing similar stuff in Phoenix.
Not necessarily proof of a conspiracy, but…
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I kind of agree with the guy as far the skewed penalties go. But i think that is more of a refs vs. capitals than a crosby thing.
When arguing about Crosby being overrated you have to take into account what is just exageration and what is actual undeserved praise. The kid is incredible and has earned honors, accolades, and victories that most will only obtain in their wildest dreams. When your accomplishments are that lofty, it is hard for most to not go over the top in the form of exageration not undeserved praise
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
The way they don’t get penalties called on them in many games (especially against the Caps) or get suspensions for what other teams get suspended for.
Example of the 1st: The Pens have not gotten called for more penalties than the Caps in any of their games in the last 3 seasons, including playoffs games. And the penalty/game rate drastically increases for the Caps and drastically decreases for the Pens.
Example of the 2nd: 2009 playoffs. Brashear got suspended for a late hit and bumping an opposing player during the warmups. The second, according to the NHL, is an automatic suspension. A couple days later, Malkin bumped a player during warmups, and no suspension.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Malkin’s suspension could have been reviewed and was. How is that concurrent with Brashear’s behavior that whole game? Just because he wears a Pens jersey?
It takes...something? Anything?!?
According to the NHL, Brashear had to be suspended for bumping an opposing player during warmups. Malkin does the same thing, it’s shown that he did, and no suspension. What’s there to argue?
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Brashear wasn’t given the same on-ice penalty at the time for it that Malkin’s was. Malkin’s was subject to review, reviewed and rescinded.
It takes...something? Anything?!?
Malkin was never penalized at all for it. And why was it rescinded?
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
He was given a 2 and a 10.
Rule 47.22 says he was subject to suspension, but Campbell reviewed and rescinded it. As to why, your guess is as good as mine.
It takes...something? Anything?!?
He could not have been, because he never got more than 4 PIM’s in a game during that series. Unless the 10 isn’t being listed.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
And what I am saying he didn’t get penalized/suspended for was bumping a player DURING WARM-UPS. Game stats wouldn’t show that.
What Malkin didn’t get suspended there for was a late-game instigator. Totally different event from what I am talking about.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Campbell’s ruling surrounded largely the on-ice hit rather than the pre-game behavior. As to the Malkin-Philly incident, can’t say I’m familiar with it, but since he didn’t break someone’s orbital bone later, I’m guessing it wasn’t that big of a deal.
It takes...something? Anything?!?
No, but it was a pre-game warmup bump – which is supposedly an automatic suspension. That’s my main point – twice in those playoffs, Malkin did not get suspended for what is supposed to be automatic.
I looked for video of the Malkin-Philly incident, but couldn’t find any. Problem is, I don’t know the date it happened.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
I don’t even remember this incident you’re talking about, timmy.
But I mean you’ve watched NHL warmups, you see players racing around, straying over red lines, going in opposite directions. It’s chaotic.
Brashear, a known rough player, hit Colton Orr — another enforcer — during warmups.
I think you’d have to admit that’s going to lead to a little more trouble than Malkin bumping into whoever he hit. Situation had to have been different — and it shows it as they let Brashear play the game and he drilled Betts. Malkin didn’t do anything during the game, and thus no need for supplemental discipline.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
I remember the video, and he skated right up to the other guy and shouldered him – it wasn’t a tiny bump or something. According to the NHL, that (just like an instigator in the last 5 minutes) is an automatic suspension – but yet neither was given.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Did the video show the refs watch the event and turn a blind eye to it, illustrating the overwhelming bias you allege?
I have never even heard a Flyer fan bitch about this incident, so I find it curious to read it here, and still see you not acknowledge the difference in whatever Malkin did compared to Brashear (a troublemaker and fighter) going after Orr (another fighter).
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 10, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Seeing how it was during warm-ups, I don’t think the refs were watching. But they sure do that a lot with Crosby.
I know the difference between what Malkin and Brashear did – and that difference was during the game. In warm-ups, it was nearly identical.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
The actions may have been similar, but the players (and the following actions) were different.
Brashear, a guy with a rapsheet of suspensions, went after another enforcer. Then later in the game he broke a player’s jaw with a dirty hit.
Malkin may or may not have intentionally bumped a player and then….Well, nothing happened.
Different events, different outcomes. Not evidence of favoritism to the Pens. You can come up with tons of better examples of that.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 10, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Hooks, you’re going to lose this one. Malkin definitely gave the guy a nice little tap during warmups, and it was caught on video. This all happened less than two weeks after the NHL front office made a nice little press release about how they wouldn’t accept that kind of contact during warmups when they suspended Brashear.
Now do I believe this is a Penguins/Caps double standard? Not for a second. It’s pretty clearly a Malkin/Brashear (aka star/goon) double standard. But the facts are pretty much as Timmy is laying them out. There’s no question from the video that Malkin hit the guy, and did it on purpose. Not all that hard, but still — it was intentional contact during warmups.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 10, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Also: the way Crosby is allowed to get away with dives and crosschecks in the offensive zone.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
A missed call (or calls) isn’t proof of a conspiracy in a subjective sport.
It takes...something? Anything?!?
Once or twice, no. Dozens of times – it starts to look suspicious.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Dozens? Come on man. Even if he did do it “dozens” of times, a lot of people would say that AO throws his own share of cheap shots in here and there. Provide some clips to back this up or something.
It takes...something? Anything?!?
All I’m doing is pointing out facts. Yes, dozens. As in a few times a game – dozens isn’t that much. I doubt much video on that exists, although I could possibly find some if I took enouhg time to look.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
There’s a difference between facts and opinions on gameplay occurrences in a sport with subjective officiating.
It takes...something? Anything?!?
Fact: Crosby cross-checks defenders in front of the opposing net all the time. For example, look at the Detroit game where he got face-washed by Howard for doing so. Fact: Crosby rarely gets called for it.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Fact: AO takes fewer penalties per 60 minutes of hockey than Crosby. Extending your thinking, AO gets away with more stuff than Sid does.
It takes...something? Anything?!?
Doesn’t follow at all. Ovechkin doesn’t do as much worthy of penalties as Crosby.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
So now we’re back to behavior “worthy” of penalty (and players’ reputations), which goes back to subjective officiating.
I don’t dispute that officiating and the evaluation process of officials needs to be more transparent to improve the sport, but saying that “it’s a bias!” doesn’t wash just because someone counted penalties in a sample of games.
It takes...something? Anything?!?
“Worthy of penalties” as in “violates the NHL rules for what a penalty is”. There’s no way the refs don’t see how often he does it, seeing how it’s multiple times every game.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
by timmyv38 on Aug 9, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
By your eyes and the benefit of replay. On-ice officials don’t get that benefit, not to mention human beings as a whole simply can’t be that good.
It takes...something? Anything?!?
True. But it gets annoying when he does it over… and over… and over…
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
I’m not sure how you can make that evaluation without watching the complete scouting tape of both players’ careers and comparing the two.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I contemplated going with Sid for just that reason, but even if he’s not far and away the best, he’s easily at the topmost strata of player…
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Without a lot of real though to it:
Caps:
Underrated: Schultz (all-time Miller)
Overrated: Varlamov, Bradley (all-time Corriveau)
NHL:
Underated: Regehr (all-time Hunter)
Overrated: Heatley (all-time, Kurri)
It takes...something? Anything?!?
Interesting – my first reaction is to put Kurri in the same bucket as Gartner. Both put up a lot of points and were very, very serviceable forwards. How much did they benefit from the roles that they played on their teams?
Kurri clearly benefitted from Gretzky. Gartner was thrust into a primary scorer role and hung in there with that, but he wasn’t much of a leader.
I can’t say that agree they are both overrated though. Fairly rated in my mind.
Every bursted bubble has a glory! Each abysmal failure makes a point! Every glowing path that goes astray,shows you how to find a better way. So every time you stumble never grumble. Next time you'll bumble even less!
Maybe it’s the “plays well considering his linemate” argument, but Kurri’s 40+ seasons are a helluva lot easier to write off because of that. Call it the perspective of youth I guess.
Alan Haworth is another one that pops to mind during that era also for the underrated group.
It takes...something? Anything?!?
I thought he was traded for Calle Jo, so I went to look it up. He wasn’t.
Instead, I vomited a bit in my mouth.
Haworth & Duschene and a Caps #1 to Quebec for Hunter & Malarchuk.
The Caps #1 turned into Joe Sakic. What do they say about hindsight?
Every bursted bubble has a glory! Each abysmal failure makes a point! Every glowing path that goes astray,shows you how to find a better way. So every time you stumble never grumble. Next time you'll bumble even less!
But who knows if they even take Sakic with that pick?
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Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I know – just like you can’t assume the double play.
Every bursted bubble has a glory! Each abysmal failure makes a point! Every glowing path that goes astray,shows you how to find a better way. So every time you stumble never grumble. Next time you'll bumble even less!
Yup. They may have taken Bryan Marchment or Andrew Cassels or someone else instead.
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Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree strongly on both Regehr and Kurri. Kurri was a very good defensive player, which for all Wayne’s offensive skill, Gretzky was not. Kurri continued to produce very good numbers after 99 left, it’s not like he was whatshisface for the Penguins that took a titanic nose-dive as soon as he was taken off Mario’s wing.
Regehr got dominated this year. He’s lost a step and for all he does right, he didn’t have that many steps to lose in the first place. If he bounces back this season, I’ll eat my words, but I think his days as an elite NHL defender are over. There’s a lot of wear on that body.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s the one.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely agree with you on Kurri. The guy had a great shot and actually won more Cups than Wayne did in his career (Kurri won 5 with Edmonton, Wayne won 4). Kurri was a terrific player. Sure playing with Gretzky helped his numbers, but because of his skills, Kurri was able to play with Wayne all those years. If he didn’t keep up, they would have put someone else in his spot… (Glenn Anderson would have been the natural choice for that…)
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 9, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
You know how awesome Gretzky was?
He turned Bernie Nicholls into a 150 point player in 1988-89 (70/80/150). Bernie Nicholls
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Nicholls had a 97 point season and a 100 point season prior to that, it’s not like he was some schlub.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Long time since I’ve disagreed with you as much as I do with your picks here.
I don’t get Varly being overrated. Brads, yes he gets more pub but that a personality thing.
Regehr, if anything, is overrated. Heatley is just about right in my mind. he produces. If anyone on the Sharks is overrated its Thornton.
"You ever use smelling salts, every time you type a bad blog?" Brooks Laich
Most underrated Cap: Calle Jo.
Most overrated Cap: Bobby Carpenter.
"Those things happen in sport," McPhee said. "It's not like it's anything chronic."
I considered Bobby C. In the end, I kept him out of both categories. I questioned whether he was really overrated or just plain average and everybody knew he was after a few years.
Every bursted bubble has a glory! Each abysmal failure makes a point! Every glowing path that goes astray,shows you how to find a better way. So every time you stumble never grumble. Next time you'll bumble even less!
thankfully, the Rags felt he had another 50 goal year in him.
"Those things happen in sport," McPhee said. "It's not like it's anything chronic."
I wrote the other that I was listening to the 1995 Stanley Cup Finals on XM 204 and Carpenter sounded like a force on a line with Stephane Richer.
Every bursted bubble has a glory! Each abysmal failure makes a point! Every glowing path that goes astray,shows you how to find a better way. So every time you stumble never grumble. Next time you'll bumble even less!
I don’t have a lot of knowledge of past Caps, so I can only go with current ones:
Overrated Cap: Varlamov – never been all that high on him
Underrated Cap: Boyd Gordon
Overrated NHLer: Dan Boyle
Underrated NHLer: Scottie Upshall
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Caps;
underrated: Mike Green. We know he’s the best D man and that’s all that matters. Everyone else can suck it. Chimera a close second
overrated: Can’t think of anyone on the current roster. In the 90’s I don’t think I really knew enough about hockey to make that call
NHL:
underrated: Lecavalier. yea yea yea bring on the flames. But I think he’s still got plenty of surprises left in him.
overrated: Gagne or Fluery. Gagne just doesn’t have it anymore. And I used to make the joke that Scuderi that a better goalie than Fluery when the Pens won the cup. Pens fans scoffed at me but I meant it.
I do think Mike Green is underrated leaguewide — particularly his defensive skill. Mike Green keeps a lot more pucks out of his own net than he gets credit for.
If there were a 25-year old defenseman who was as good as Green in his own end but without the offense, that guy would be touted as a future star.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 9, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
If there were a 25-year old defenseman who was as good as Green in his own end but without the offense, that guy would be touted as a future star.
Ryan Suter comes to mind.
"Those things happen in sport," McPhee said. "It's not like it's anything chronic."
Actually I don’t think he’s THAT underrated. I think any team would kill for Green. I just think he’s just got an undeserved stigma attached to him.
When talking underrated/overrated, though, it’s not about the teams. All these guys earn NHL paychecks because teams value them – underrated/overrated is generally a measurement of how a player is viewed by the fans and the media.
At least that’s how I see it.
That should probably read “Green’s Defense,” then, eh?
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s an excellent point and one that I think gets overlooked – he’s certainly not the worst defenseman in the NHL (by a longshot) and is probably in the top 10% if not better. But people see those flashy offensive numbers and dismiss him as a forward in defenseman’s clothing. It’s really unfair – and as we’ve seen by the numbers and just by watching, not true.
Good call, and Sutes actually has a lot of offensive skill – he’s the 2nd best passer on the team, by far. He’s just overshadowed by that one other guy.
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Suter’s better defensively than Green is, but I can see the comparison.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
The thing I think is strange about Green is how so many people write/talk about him forgetting he’s a defenseman, playing as a defender in name only, as a winger who lines up as a defenseman on faceoffs, which simply isn’t true. The way some people write about him, if you’d never seen him play, you’d think he was the second coming of Sandis Ozolinsh.
I want to see Green just obliterate more people with his hip check this season.
I’d rather see more of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMf2U2hVSF8
Than him getting above 30 goals again :)
You can’t look at that and not say he has a killer instict as a D man. He just needs experience. That’s all. patience is key.
Thing is, he got in trouble for going for the big hit last season. It’s hard to be Mike Green.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
he got in trouble for the elbow. Not even a sneaky elbow. He skated halfway across the ice with his elbow pointed at that guy’s face.
but I will admit that Green throwing a proper hip check is a thing of well-executed beauty.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
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He’s gotten so much better at it, too – timing and execution. Just one more step in the ongoing evolution is learning to do that right.
He also got better at being hit. I saw him stay on his feet after hits that used to knock him over, and were now resulting in the guy who hit him falling down. Solid.
....
Better Kermit picture:
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
not sure how a two time norris trophy finalist could be considered underrated….
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
Easy. The same way a 100+ point guy like Backstrom is. There’s a huge percentage of hockey fans/media who don’t see him as a credible D – it’s more prevalent among fans but there’s certainly a branch of the hockey media that really thinks he’s bad on defense.
and the head of that branch of the hockey media wears orange.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
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well some of the hockey media voted him a norris trophy finalist twice. and i agree his defense is underrated by a lot of folks. but on the whole, i dont think people underrate him. anyone who can put their bias aside would admit he’s one of the top offensive defensemen (if not the top) in the league and that he’s an eastern conference all star defenseman.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
Have you ever heard a discussion of Green’s offensive capabilities without some mention of his supposed defensive lapses?
That’s how you can simultaneously be a Norris candidate and be underrated. That and the fact that there’s no way in hell he shouldn’t have won the Norris two years ago. He was robbed.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Aug 9, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Overrated – Cam Ward
Underrated – Tomas Vokoun
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Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 1:53 PM EDT reply actions
Add Stever Bernier to the overrated list as well. No way should that guy be getting two million per.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Underrated: Jim Carey: Here me out, he energized the team and almost won the Calder despite entering the league later in the season and loses to Peter Forsbeg. Is the first Capital to ever win the Vezina trophy while on his entry level contract and lands us Adam Oates in a trade. Sure he stunk in the playoffs and fizzled out after leaving the Caps but sometimes its like he never existed.
Overrated: I’d go with Yvon Labre just for the fact that he had his number retired when there are probably many more deserving who won’t get it because of the teams lack of championships.
Cote, Pivonka, and Calle were the three names that immediately popped into mind as being underrated when I saw the topic. Leaguewide, Peter Bondra doesn’t get anywhere near the level of respect he deserves as well.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
A rec for Bondra. One of my all time favorite players, it took me a while to get over his trade. I hated that it happened and I hated how it happened
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → b a (select) start
Eh, Bondra was pretty much done when the trade went down, the Caps were horrible, and it game him a chance to go to a contender.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
bondra was my fav player growing up, but obviously blogs and the internet wasn’t a factor so I’m not really sure how much people talked about him back in the 90s
Wouldn’t have Brooks Laich without it
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that he was just about done. In retrospect I don’t fault the trade. I do fault the manner it was done. And it still stung. A little like Olie, I think I wanted him to retire as a Cap.
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → b a (select) start
I’m with you. It’s not a trade that you protest because of the why, it’s the how – plus the fact that he was a fan favorite, a lifelong Cap, etc. That stung, I definitely cried. I love Laich and I think the trade was absolutely the right move…but it still stung.
by Becca H on Aug 9, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you’ve heard that Ted’s son wouldn’t speak to him for a week because of the Bondra trade, right?
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
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Interesting, because I remember the “how” of the trade as management asking him if he’d like the chance to play for a contender, Bondra said yes, and away he went. I must be misremembering.
Regarding Olie, the end was purely a result of his stubbornness. He was done, needed to retire, and just wouldn’t do it.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I can’t blame Olie for taking the Koules money. Not for a second.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t either…but I also don’t blame the Caps for letting him do it.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Nope. If I remember correctly, I think no team had gotten worse production out of the goaltenders the year of Huet/Kolzig/Johnson
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
The ‘how’ I remember was him being called off the ice and told he was traded. The reports in the papers said he didnt know it was coming and that GMGM didnt even give him the courtesy of a warning that he was being shopped. He wanted to stay here I think.
Olie, I give you, but I was just using him as a comparison as “someone I wanted to retire as a Cap,” not for the way he left town.
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Crap. I’m totally off, then. Maybe I have Bondra and Dale Hunter confused…
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Olie was asked a couple different times if he wanted to go a contender. Kinda of a “We’ll find a place for you to get a ring if you want” situation.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
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The ‘how’ I remember was him being called off the ice and told he was traded. The reports in the papers said he didnt know it was coming and that GMGM didnt even give him the courtesy of a warning that he was being shopped.
That was what Bondra told the DC press. A week or so later, he told the Ottawa Sun a different version—that when the rumors of the firesale began floating around, Bondra went to McPhee and asked if he was being shopped. McPhee said he was, and then they discussed what teams Bondra would be okay being traded to. The Senators was one of those teams. He said he was upset because he didn’t have time to tell his family about the trade before the news broke (McPhee actually went up to Piney Orchard the following morning to tell him in person rather than tell him over the phone).
I thought Bondra was upset because he brought his kids to PO that morning for practice?
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
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League wide: I think Jere Lehtinen’s been called under-rated so much that he’s actually over-rated. People trying to make up too much ground by recognizing him for never being recognized has had backfired, at least to me.
That’s way too meta for a Monday though.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
GUS!
In my opinion Bengt Gustaffson was once of the Caps’ most underrated players. He was a beast on the PP & the PK, and led by example, often playing D against the other team’s top line if necessary. Close second would be Sylvain Cote & Calle Johansson.
Overrated? Probably Guy Charron or Bob Carpenter.
NHL-wide? Underrated-Chris Osgood/Mike Vernon. Both were always better in the playoffs than their in-reason performance would predict. Overrated-jeez, I don’t know except there were a lot of clutchers and grabbers on the Flyers & Isles in the late 70s-early 80s that probably fit the bill in the overrated category (maybe Clark Gilles).
by LangwayWasTheKing on Aug 9, 2010 2:04 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
ok, i’m gonna throw this out there, one of the most underrated players in the league right now is sean avery. now, its his own fault he underrated due to his antics, but the guy has skills and if he could channel the other BS, he’d be recognized as a top player for what he does.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
Underrated Cap – Bengt Gustafsson by far.
Runner-Ups – Kelly Miller, Steve Konowalchuk, Bob Rouse (Willie Mitchell pre-Willie Mitchell)
Overrated Caps – Michael Pivonka, Al Iafrate, Dimitri Khristich.
Most Underrated NHL player I have seen – Ron Francis.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
Ooh, Ronnie Francis, forgot about him. That’s another good call.
In the current crop of overrated players, I’m gonna throw out Mike Komisarek.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
You’re lucky F&B just got married this weekend and probably won’t see that.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
F & B hates Ronnie Frances?
Anyway, I warmed his heart with the E. Staal pick, so there’s that.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
D’oh! I knew that; he and Becca fought about this the other day, or something.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Someone hates Mike Komisarek, and dammit, we’re gonna get to the bottom of this!
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Strangely enough, he hates Ronnie Frances, as well as Frances MacDormand
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 9, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Most Underrated NHL player I have seen – Ron Francis.
I was going to mention this. Playing in the exact same era as arguably the four best centers ever (66, 99, Messier and Yzerman) killed all recognition for Francis, who wasn’t really as bold of a player as those guys but was really, really good for a long long time.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Oh, man, such a good name from RB. I have always, ALWAYS liked Ron Francis – even in his Penguins years (my secret shame :P). Classy guy, hell of a player, and never got the same accolades as the flashier guys he’s played next to.
overrated capital – s. varlamov
underrated capital – k. beech
…wait, i might have that…backwards?
underrated – n. backstrom, p. bondra (didn’t get the rec around the league he deserved)
overrated – max ouellet (we traded oates for this guy?)
league
underrated – p. marleau, c. osgood
overrated – i. kovalchuk, r. dipietro
NHL underrated: Dustin Brown. Great, great player because of the way he draws penalties, takes very few by comparison, gets shots to the net and does it while playing very tough competition.
NHL overrated: J-Bow! There’s no way on God’s green earth that guy was worth that much money. You can’t pay one-dimensional players that much and his results in CGY have been awful to date. There was a lot of breathy anticipation of where he’d sign, but urgh, I’m sure glad the Caps didn’t sign him.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 2:46 PM EDT reply actions
Wasn’t Bouwmeester one of those Canadian kids that had a crazy good junior career or something?
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Yeah, he was highly touted around draft day, then did okay with the Panthers during his RFA years. The assumption was that there must have been some offense hiding in there, but the ‘Cats forwards weren’t good enough to bring it out. Didn’t quite work out. He’s a pretty good defensive D, but I wouldn’t even put him in the top-5 for that category. Add the media anticipation and the trade deadline stuff from FLA, plus all the coverage when CGY traded a pick to get negotiation rights ahead of the deadline and he’s been pretty overrated.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
the Canadian media was still enamored with him leading up to the Olympics. Remember all the breathless “ZOMG!!!! Stevie Y left Bouwmeester off team Canada!!!!! THE WORLD IS GOING TO END!” coverage on TSN?
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
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I thought TSN showed the selection announcement? My bad, than. All I remember is fuming about the Green snub while some talking heads were prattling on and on and on about how no Flames D men were named to the team, and specifically J.Bo.
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Another underrated player: Patrice Bergeron. In the same way that JStaal is underrated; plays the 3C role, plays it extremely well, outscores and outshoots very tough opposition and doesn’t get any PP time. His point totals would be far, far higher if not for that.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
All-Time Caps:
Overrated: Olie Kolzig
Underrated: Adam Oates
Current Caps:
Overrated: David Steckel (with Brooks Laich a close second)
Underrated: Mike Green (with Backstrom a close second)
All-NHL
Overrated: Dion Phaneuf, Tomas Kaberle
Underrated: Ales Hemsky (with Rick Nash, Milan Hejduk and Zach Parise not far behind)
I’m going to take a lot of flak for the Kolzig thing, but he was a pretty average goalie for most of his career. He had a couple outstanding seasons bracketed by a whole lot of “meh.” Yeah, he carried the Caps to the Cup Finals, but you don’t hear folks in Edmonton wistfully remembering Dwayne Roloson. He was a great “face of the team,” and helped the community a ton, but the perception of his play is, in my opinion, way out of proportion with how good he actually was.
Conversely, although I see a smattering of Oates jerseys around the VC, I rarely hear people talk about him. The guy turned Chris Simon into a 30-goal scorer. That’s. . . amazing. Even Joe Sakic couldn’t do that.
Steckel has a reputation as a defensive stalwart that is rather undeserved at this point. He’s a faceoff specialist who does ok against larger, slower forwards. Fans’ impressions of him are still colored by his heroics from Game 6 two years ago. I love Brooks Laich, and I even have one of his jerseys, but I’m totally willing to acknowledge that he’s probably not as good as I think he is. People think of him as being great defensively, but no metric really bears that out. Instead, he gets bumped up a couple notches for being cool.
I don’t think people really understand just how historically amazing Green’s performance these last few years have been. He has his lapses, and his playoff performances the last two years have been sub-par, but his 08-09 and 09-10 regular seasons were two of the best offensive seasons by a defenseman in decades. At the same time, it’s become the mark of a “savvy fan/analyst” to savage his defensive abilities, despite the fact that he’s really pretty good defensively. He was absolutely robbed of the Norris two years ago. Same thing pretty much goes for Backstrom – nobody really gets how good he is.
Phaneuf is bizarro-Mike Green. He doesn’t score nearly as much and is much worse defensively, yet because he occasionally levels someone with a hit, he somehow gets a free pass. And he gets paid $1.25m more per year than Green. Kaberle is the same, except he doesn’t even hit anyone. I have no idea why that guy is considered an elite NHL defenseman.
Ales Hemsky has Patrick Kane/Alex Semin-level skills. Sadly, he plays in the Pit of Despair Edmonton. He has never had decent linemates, nor decent coaching, nor any support whatsoever. But when he’s healthy, he’s a freaking highlight machine.
Rick Nash is one of the few players in the league that I think can challenge Ovie’s combination of size and skill. Despite that, he’s been stuck in Columbus playing for crappy teams with crappy defense-first coaches. In some ways, he’s almost a more complete package than Ovie, since he kills penalties and does it well.
Hejduk is like Flash if Flash’s floor was 25 goals (as opposed to his ceiling), he played defense, wasn’t a total marshmallow to play against, and showed up during the playoffs. The guy had a 50-goal season, a 40+ goal season, and three 35+ goal seasons. And he only gets paid $3m. And people have pretty much forgotten that he exists (injuries have played a role there, though).
Zach Parise is unbelievably good. He’s American. He scored a HUGE goal for the USA in the Olympics. And yet his profile within the NHL is pretty low. I don’t get it. He should be consistently mentioned in the tier of players right below Crosby and Ovechkin, but he’s not. I guess playing in Jersey will do that to you…
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Aug 9, 2010 3:20 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Wow. . .i was going to try to take a stab at the overrated/underrated but it would just look ridiculous next to this. href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyHEU1omVAc&feature=player_embedded” target="new">Hemsky is a great pic. He does plenty of impressive stuff.
I wouldnt say Rich Nash is so much underrated. He doesn’t get as much attention as he should though. He does have one of the best goal in the entire history of the NHL, but I don’t think he matches the offensive ability of a guy like Ovie. That being said, Nash is pretty much the lifeblood of CBJ, carrying the team on his back most of the time. He should get much more credit.
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
Oops, Hemsky link didnt go in right
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
Hejduk gets forgotten because of playing on the same team with Sakic, Forsberg and Roy, no? But even now, his skill jumps off the screen when you see an Avs game and he’s well past his prime years.
Add another one from EDM who’s underrated; Dustin Penner. He plays the same role with them that Knuble plays with us, but he’s younger and more skilled. Everyone seems to improve when he’s on the ice and gets worse when he’s off it. You know what? He looks like he’s living up to that contract.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. Penner is a little like Drury and Vanek – he’s always going to be judged more by the contract he signed than his actual skill. Another guy on that list is Briere. It pains me to say this, but he’s pretty underrated at this point as well. The guy has a lethally accurate shot.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Kinda like a spear in the back of the net.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Aug 9, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
nice work. How did you arrive at Oates as most underrated?
"Those things happen in sport," McPhee said. "It's not like it's anything chronic."
I guess I arrive at Oates because I think his presence had a lot to do with the Caps’ success in 98, 2000 and 2001, combined with the fact that I don’t hear many folks around here talk about him all that often. He was a brilliant playmaker, an excellent faceoff artist and a good defensive player. He was the classic “makes everyone around him better” player, and I don’t think he gets enough credit for that. Perhaps it’s because he didn’t come up through the Caps’ system, or because he didn’t stick around like Olie and Bondra did.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Remember at one time “Hull n Oates” was synonymous for “amazing playmaking-duo” in the NHL
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
I don’t think of Oates as underrated because at that time, he came to the Caps in what felt then like a pretty hefty price. They gave up a lot to acquire him, and he’d already had major success in Boston and St. Louis. We knew what he could do, expected him to do it, and he did.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 9, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess I’m thinking of it in hindsight, though. I just don’t get the feeling that Caps fans, journalists or announcers have the same feelings about Oates that they have about a bunch of other players who objectively contributed much less to the Caps’ success. (Also, that trade was an absolute steal for the Caps in hindsight.)
We knew what he could do, expected him to do it, and he did.
I can think of another big-name player that came to the Caps in a blockbuster deal who couldn’t accomplish the same feat.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I liked all of your main chooses. Well done, especially on Hemsky.
Only minor complaint is on Parise. He’s awesome, but I’ve never seen anyone underselling his talents.
"You ever use smelling salts, every time you type a bad blog?" Brooks Laich
Parise was all relative to me. I think he should be one of the faces of the NHL, but I think he suffers somewhat by playing for Lou in New Jersey.
I guess it’s not that he’s ignored, it’s that even though he gets some credit, it’s not enough. He’s just so flipping good. (It’s similar to the Nash situation.)
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
League:
Overrated-Hossa, Heatley, Thornton, and Phaneuf
Underrated-Datsyuk, Vokoun, Backstrom, and Savard
You know what? Thinking about it a bit, I buy it. He’s an amazing talent and a lot of people mention it but somehow he still gets absorbed into the ubermachine that is Detroit and overlooked because of fellow Russians like Ovechkin and Malkin. Plus he’s sneaky good, like Backstrom – he makes it look so effortless that you forget the skill behind it.
Interesting pick, I like it.
I dunno. He’s recognized by the league and his peers annually (and he’s certainly well-thought of, here), but it’s true that he doesn’t get paid nearly as much. I dunno, I think everyone knows exactly what Dats can do, and that, in my mind, doesn’t make him underrated. He doesn’t fly beneath any radars.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, but I guess my thinking is that he doesn’t get the appropriate level of attention. He’s underrated simply by not being in the same conversation as guys with whom he’s the equal if not better.
Maybe he’s more taken for granted than underrated?
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Underappreciated, I think is the term CB used for Legwand.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
But even that’s debatable. I really don’t think he’s underrated.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
But he’s a constant MVP candidate and he’s not going to lose the Selke anytime soon. He might be a tad bit underrated, but it’s pretty slight. At the same time, he’s not AO or Crosby, so he’s not going to be treated as such.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean, he got an MVP nomination once and finished 3rd (exactly where he finished in the scoring race), I wouldn’t call that constant.
2010: Sedin, AO, Crosby
2009: AO, Malkin, Datsyuk
2008: AO, Iginla, Malkin
2007: Crosby, Luongo, Brodeur
2006: Thornton, Jagr, Kiprusoff
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm… Not sure what I was thinking, then. I’m probably letting the Selkes and Byngs cloud my memory.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s recognized by the league and his peers annually (and he’s certainly well-thought of, here), but it’s true that he doesn’t get paid nearly as much.
That’s his choice. Detroit won’t pay anyone more than Lidstrom is getting paid. Dats knew that and still wanted to stay. On the open market, he would have gotten more.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
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In places that aren’t as savvy, I rarely hear Dats or Zetterberg mentioned as two of the best players in the game, even though they’re complete packages. Dominating defenders away from the puck and very good offensive players with it.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
My issue with Dats and Zetterberg has always been their vulnerability to physical play. I’m not sure their either under or overrated, but that’s why I’ll never have them in the same league as some other players of comparable statistics.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I’ll defer on Datsyuk because you can take him off his game if you hit him hard enough, often enough (not that easy to do, he’s sneaky), but I thought Zetterberg handled it a little better than that.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s interesting – I’d actually flip-flop them. I think Dats is the shiftier of the two and can occasionally sidestep a hit, whereas Zetterberg’s wonky back is always one good jostle from going out.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
If it’s the injury angle, I’ll buy that. Datsyuk is smaller, if you hit him cleanly and often, it seems like it wears him down. Probably colored by watching him try to play through a broken foot in the 2009 SCF, though.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
From what I’ve seen it’s always seemed like Datsyuk handles the physical aspect of the game very well. But maybe I’m just thinking of a few plays and giving them more weight than they should. But I’ve never gotten the sense that Dats wilts in a physical game.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Aug 9, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t say wilts in the sense that he’s shy about going into corners and such, but rather in the sense that he wants to make the right play, but he’s slower than he ought to be.
I’m not questioning his toughness in terms of desire; he’s a scrappy dude when he needs to be, but rather how his body holds up when he’s taking a pounding along the boards.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Mike Richards-Underrated. The guy scares the crap out of me whenever we play them
"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"
I have never thought of Mike Richards as underrated, I would say Brad Richards is underrated though.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
Brad Richards for sure, i’d also say Brendan Morrow goes under the radar too
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
Wait, I have a winner right here.
Underrated: Anze Kopitar
The imperial raccoon is one of the most fun players to watch in the league, and was robbed of Calder trophy nomination in his rookie season.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
by jordanDC on Aug 9, 2010 3:39 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
damn youuu! I posted it a second too late.
I think he is probably the most underrated player in the league. He suffers big time from the East Coast bias
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
Overrated – Jordan Staal, MAF, Burrows,
Underrated – The Entire LA Kings roster
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
I like your overrated choices, but the Kings are going to be one helluva team pretty soon.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Aw, shit. My bad. Thought you had the Kings as overrated. Carry on.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
lol its ok. I think they’re the biggest darkhorse team in the NHL right now. Unfortunately, they didn’t make any huge improvements this offseason. . .but i think they’ll be ok
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
hah, like jordan said, he definitely has a hateable face. ..but the guy can play some serious hockey. i’d love him on the caps
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
Awwwww but I don’t want guys who play serious hockey.
I want guys who play jokey, fool-around type hockey with sticks that are way too big.
KInda like Willie Mitchell :)
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
haha, apparently he has plenty of fun off the ice
but then again, we may need some stern personalities to offset Ovie, Semin, Bradley, and, the biggest troublemaker, Schultz
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
I much prefer his musically attuned counterpart, Jack Johnson
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
dont hate! i live in socal, i’ve been indoctrinated
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
His music is crap, regardless of where you live.
Jack Johnson is what douchebags did to the guitar.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
That’s more of a Jimmy Buffett sorta thing i think
haterz will be haterz though
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
You were hoping maybe for Dick McSchlong?
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 9, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
meh, maybe even his blues counterpart Big Jack Johnson
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
An underrated choice for some of you savvier fans: David Legwand. Plays against tough minutes, gets defensive zone starts, etc. and etc. I don’t know enough to know if he comes out looking good after getting put through the meat grinder, but he’s by far the most trusted forward on the Preds.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Yeah, he’s totally underrated because folks expect him to live up to his draft ranking. If you just look at him for the player he his, however, he’s good.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
He’s lived up to his draft ranking just fine, the problem is people look at Lecavalier in front of him and go ZOMG WHERE ARE TEH GOALS?! Its not his game, never was.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
ZOMG WHERE ARE TEH GOALS?! Its not his game, never was.
The kid scored 54 goals in 59 games for Plymouth in his draft year. Goal-scoring was his game in the OHL, and it was supposed to be his game in the NHL. You don’t get drafted 2nd overall because you might someday be a good checking center who scores occasionally.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
OK, so maybe it was his game at one point. But we quickly found out it wasn’t going to be in the NHL, and people still get all worked up when he’s not shutting down Nash and Zetterberg while scoring 30 and 30.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Still, if you draft a guy who scored a goal/game in juniors #2 overall, it’s not altogether unwarranted to be somewhat disappointed when the best season he can muster (thus far) is 27 goals. I’m not saying he’s either under or overrated, it’s just that I understand folks who lament his lack of scoring.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Point taken and understood, I’m saying that they should be used to that by now.
Perhaps he’s not so much underrated as underappreciated.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Stop picking on poor Eric Fehr. Hasn’t he suffered enough?
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
If Eric Fehr had been drafted #2 overall, I’d be weeping with disappointment. At 18th overall, he’s just been a minor letdown thus far.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
And isn’t a lot of that really only because of his immediate draft company?
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t he hold like all the records for the Predators too?
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
Just about every one, yes, except for single season goals scored, which is Arnott with 33.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
I hope Hornqvist destroys that one.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
It’ll be him or Wilson, I think. No one else in the system has the scoring chops for it. And honestly, 33 goals isn’t that many. Weber hit 23 in ’08.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
There’s a certain similarity between Legwand and Jordan Staal. Both selected second overall; both came into the league at the same age; both are good defensive forwards; both put up similar point totals at the same age; both are overpaid. Legwand’s a little smaller and gets injured a little more often.
All Time Caps:
Overrated: Jaromir Jagr (honorable mention to Phil Housley)
Underrated: Bob Rouse
Jagr we all know and remember. He came in with all the hype and fell flat here in DC. He was a star in Pittsburgh before and a star in New York afterwards, but you could tell he didn’t want to be here.
Rouse came to the Caps as part of the “Hall of Fame Trade” where three other players involved were Hall of Famers: Dino Ciccarelli coming to DC, with Murphy and Gartner going to Minnesota. What folks may not remember was that Rouse was the North Stars’ captain when he was traded to the Caps. Although he was only with the Caps a few years, he could be counted on for 20+ minutes of solid defensive play. He was the Jeff Schultz of his day, althogh he was a better skater and he hit harder.
Current Caps:
Overrated: Alexander Semin
Underrated: Eric Fehr
Semin is a great talent, but doesn’t get as much out of his talent as many of the other Caps. Matt Bradley probably gets a higher percentage of results from his talent than Semin does. Fehr is a 20 goal guy who gets almost no power play time and third line minutes. Guy’s got game.
Current NHL:
Overrated: Phil Kessel (although if it’s based on contract $$, then it’s Cristobal Huet or Wade Redden)
Underrated: Zach Bogosian.
Kessel scores lots of goals, but is defensively next to worthless, and isn’t exactly a great guy in the locker room. Yes, he has talent, but he doesn’t get much out of it.
Bogosian… I think most folks here know I am very much a fan of his. Within a few years the regular Norris Trophy finalists will be Doughty, Bogosian and one other defenseman….
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
Since you think Semin doesn’t gets enough out of his talent compared to other Caps, what would you consider him getting enough out of his talent? 50 goals? No stupid penalties? Score at least one goal in the playoffs? Look like he cares every game?
Isn’t he #1 or top 3 or something similar in points per game over the last few seasons?
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Semin scores a lot of points per unit time. I don’t know what the aggregate numbers look like.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
40 goals is fine, but he’s capable of more. Getting rid of the lazy penalties, and give the effort when the other team isn’t the Hurricanes would be a start.
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 9, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Totally agree with you on the Rouse love Mike-L. I included him on my list above. I think of him comparable to today’s Willie Mitchell.
As for Housley. Never liked the guy. Considered putting him on my list. But I think by the time he reached the Caps he was at the end of his line. But during his Sabres years definitely overrated. And from those same Buffalo teams I would throw in Tom Barrasso in the overrated pile—-ugh.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
Housley came to DC with all sorts of hype that he would be the key to winning the Cup. He did contribute in 1998, sure, but he wasn’t anywhere near the player he was in Buffalo. Even then, his offense was the entirety of his game. I can’t think of a less capable defeseman on defense who held a regular job…
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 9, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting. There are a lot of things I’d call Sasha, but overrated isn’t one of them.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I consider Semin to be overrated because everyone sees 40 goals and thinks the guy is a superstar in the making. Yes, by scoring 40 goals, he is a major contributor to the team, but for all those goals, there are nights when he could care less, and how many stupid lazy penalties is he going to have to take before Bruce sends him a message? Around the league he gets rave reviews, but those of us who watch him every night… we see the holes in his game, and they’re gaping holes.
I am sick of seeing him lose the puck in the attack zone then hook down the guy who took the puck from him fairly.
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 9, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually it’s been my experience that he’s pretty widely mocked around the league…and his penchant for stupid penalties was lower this season, I thought. I don’t know. I’m not sure he’s underrated or overrated, I think everyone’s got a pretty fair read on him among Caps fans and other fans/media alike.
I’ve haven’t seen as much about his stupid penalties out there than I have about the 40 goals and how he’s a great player. He could be a great player… he’s not, at least not yet.
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 9, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
He is a great player, though. Consistency is his problem, though, but this has long been his issue. Over and Underrated, to me, speaks to the expectations surrounding the player, and I can’t honestly argue that he doesn’t give me what I expect to get.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 9, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Overrated: Alex Ovechkin
Underrated: Eric Staal
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
Something about this smells funny.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
his brother is on his honeymoon and can’t return fire, would be my guess.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Not yet. But he is currently not in a position to return fire immediately.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Aug 9, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Better get your shots in while you can, then! :p
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Like it would stop me if he could respond!
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Aug 9, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Thus the ‘:p’.
Really, though, who’re your picks?
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Put a real post at the bottom.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Aug 9, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
No way! Eric Staal is AWESOME!
/Ripe for a fall.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Aug 9, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Caps underrated – Sarge
Caps overrated – Laich
Caps all time underrated – Miller
Caps all time overrated – Labre (The banner is an embarrassment IMO – Great guy though)
NHL underrated – Streit ( i liked the picks of Okposo & Kopitar above as well)
NHL overrated – MAF
"You ever use smelling salts, every time you type a bad blog?" Brooks Laich
by Carl Putnam on Aug 9, 2010 4:51 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Easily a top 20 defenseman, in my mind.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
NHL overrated – MAF
The only reason this bothers me (and I saw a few others pick Fleury above) is no one really rates Fleury as a top 10-15 goalie.
Fleury is very inconsistent, but he was easily the best goalie in the 2008 and 2009 playoffs from Rounds 1-4, IMO. To me he made stops on Jeff Carter, Alex Ovechkin and Nik Lidstrom that all either won or set the stage for wins.
I get that he has bad games and definitely isn’t steady enough to be considered one of the best — but most people recognize that…So how exactly is Fleury over-rated?
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
I think it’s related to people who cling to the idea of “well, he has a Cup so he’s automatically amazing” – it’s not everywhere but there are certainly those out there who buy into this notion. It’s just kind of annoying, because Fleury had good moments but he wasn’t WHY they won and he definitely had off-games, too.
That’s okay – he still won a Cup, and he was good enough, and certainly deserves to have his name on it, but it doesn’t make him a great goalie and there are still people with the mindset of Cup = legend.
Could one make a case for Fleury is to the Pens what Osgood was to the Wings: A serviceable but not great superstar goalie who is steady enough to help his team win the cup?
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
It’s possible. And I think in general we’re moving past the era of great goalies dragging teams to a Cup – I think scoring has gone up enough that it’s no longer about having a Patrick Roy or a (younger) Martin Brodeur in net, you need to have the team in front.
Look at the goalies who have won the Cup since the lockout: Ward, Giguere, Osgood, Fleury, Niemi. Look at the goalies who got their teams to the Finals since the lockout: Roloson, Emery, Fleury, Osgood, Leighton. Where’s Brodeur on that list? Where are Miller and Lundqvist? The “elite” goalies are conspicuously absent from the Finals since the lockout, no?
The Canadian media slurp the guy. He’s an average goalie nothing more. I laugh when I hear media people talk about goaltending concerns of a bunch of clubs around the league, including the Caps, but the Pens never come up.
Yes, he has had his moenets, particularly in the postseason. He played extremely well in the ‘08 playoffs. That was the best I’ve ever seen him play. I thought he carried the Pens at times in all their EC series. I thought he came up big when they needed to in the ‘09 playoffs. He wasn’t spectacular like in ’08, but he was solid. Problem is outside of those two runs he has been very inconsistent as you mention.
"You ever use smelling salts, every time you type a bad blog?" Brooks Laich
As for the Canadian media’s slurping of MAF—alot has to do with the fact he was an elite junior goalie and played quite well for Canada in the World Juniors in 2003 & 2004. Old memories die hard ;)
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
Says a lot for the state of Canadian goaltending when he is their supposed heir apparent in net.
"You ever use smelling salts, every time you type a bad blog?" Brooks Laich
So how exactly is Fleury over-rated?
Draft pick — in what turned out to be a very deep draft.
Salary. And don’t roll out Cam Ward on me, I think that guy’s overpaid too.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 9, 2010 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Draft pick — in what turned out to be a very deep draft.
The contenders for the #1 pick that year were E Staal, Horton and Zherdev. I don’t think Fleury stands out negatively among that competition. It was a very deep draft but guys like Parise, Getzlaf and Mike Richards weren’t considered top prospects. I don’t think it should be a knock against Fleury that he was.
Salary. And don’t roll out Cam Ward on me, I think that guy’s overpaid too.
I think he’s like the 12th goalie in cap hit. $5 million is a hefty chunk of change, but he’s a franchise goalie that starts 65 times a year and is capable of piling up wins. I’d take Fleury at his salary over Tim Thomas, the other Backstrom, JS Giguere, Ward and Huet who all make the same or more than MAF. Also, Fleury’s cap hit is only within range of guys like Rick DiPietro, Jonas Hiller, Pascal Leclaire, Khabibulin and Kari Lehtonen all of which he is far superior.
So aside from just Ward I think that’s a pretty good case to have a Cup winning goalie locked down for all his prime years.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
If you’re selling that Fleury is better than Hiller, I’m not buying.
I’ve also seen exactly nothing that tells me that Fleury is better than Tim Thomas, irrespective of their contracts.
You can’t pull the playoff warrior card on Ward and their stats are practically identical. Fleury is cheaper, so win there, but that’s like comparing a Yugo contract with an Edsel.
The other Backstrom is something of a mystery; how much of his success was the Lemaire system and how much was his own ability? Last year didn’t look good, but goalie Sv% varies pretty dramatically across seasons.
If we’re defining franchise goalie as a guy that can start 65 games, then Fleury is one. If we’re talking about a real difference maker, you’re getting into rarer air, air that Fleury isn’t in. You’re talking Lundqvist, you’re talking Vokoun, you’re talking Miller. A few years ago, you were talking Brodeur. Is he a capable NHL starter? Yeah, but there’s nothing he’s done that distinguishes him from your essentially average NHL goalie over that same time period. He got hot at the right time in the ’08 playoffs and was playing behind a remarkable team in ’09, a team that dramatically outshot its opponents throughout the playoffs.
Antti Niemi is a Cup Winning Goalie. JS Giguere is a Cup Winning (and Conn Smythe winning) goalie. Chris Osgood is a two-time starting Stanley Cup winning goalie and another as a backup, 1b starter. Nikolai Khabibulin is a Stanley Cup Winning Goalie.
Justifying it by cap-hit among goalies doesn’t do much for me; if there are lots of overpaid goalies relative to their contributions above the average level, there’s a lot of overpaid goalies. It doesn’t excuse the overpayment of any given goalie in that range.
I’d draft Horton or Staal above Fleury and found whatever goaltending deals were available (Not at Staal’s current contract, but again, it’s comparing a Yugo with an Edsel; one is better, but neither is something to be proud of). The difference between their production and the average scoring winger is larger than the difference between the average goalie and Fleury (which is to say practically non-existent).
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 10, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
but he’s a franchise goalie
Ah, so you overrate him too < grin >
Look, he’s an ordinary goalie. You need one of those. I’d rather have one for $3 Million than for $5 million.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 10, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
So how exactly is Fleury over-rated?
Well there’s this thing.. umm.. It’s called , ah crap I forget. What is it again.
Oh yea
SAVE PERCENTAGE
A .906 career save % in this day in age is nothing to be proud of.
He had a monster SV% the year the Pens lost in the finals. But the year he won? .908. In a post I made months ago, it showed that this was the LOWEST sv% by a starting goalie for the winning team in MANY years.
And lets not forget last year’s playoffs (.891). BLEH!
A .906 career save % in this day in age is nothing to be proud of.
Career takes into account the dreadful defensive teams he played in front of with such defensive luminaries as Dan Focht, Ric Jackman, “The” Drake Berehowsky, Josef Melichar and on and on and on.
In a post I made months ago, it showed that this was the LOWEST sv% by a starting goalie for the winning team in MANY years.
That might be true on paper, but look at the way the Pens play — they’re not going to let the other team bombard the net and try to block a ton of shots like Montreal, they play puck possession, try to limit shots and keep the puck out of the zone. Playing aggressive can lead to mistakes and odd man situations and I don’t think many goalies would have a stellar save % in the Penguins’ style.
By adding Martin and Michalek though, the defense ought to be tougher to get through and better, so I do concede this argument isn’t valid for much longer.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Career takes into account the dreadful defensive teams he played in front of with such defensive luminaries as Dan Focht, Ric Jackman, "The" Drake Berehowsky, Josef Melichar and on and on and on.
When were they playing? Even last year he wasn’t that good. Last year his sv% was .905 and playoffs was under .900
Remember the league average for SV % (average of all shots taken / shots stopped by goalie.. not averaging the % of goalies) has been hovering around a .911/.910 for the last few years.
When were they playing?
The early days that hurt Fleury’s first few non-playoff seasons of years like .896, .898
and playoffs was under .900
While true, his career playoff numbers: 38-24, 2.52 GAA and .911 are respectable. Especially considering how over-matched the Pens were in ’07 against Ottawa (the eventual ECF champs) and how many defensive breakdowns occurred against Montreal.
I recognize he had a bad season this past year and is not consistent enough to be an all-star, but I still don’t get why he’s over-rated. Probably because in some people’s minds they think of Fleury as highly rated, I guess.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 10, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
While true, his career playoff numbers: 38-24, 2.52 GAA and .911 are respectable.
Not to mention inconsistent.
Actually pretty consistent, aside from a bad 2010 playoffs (in which his defense didn’t do him many favors). The whole team had a learning curve against a superior ‘07 Ottawa team and Fleury’s been really, really solid in ’08 and IMO ’09 as well.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 10, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
reg seasom
.896
.898
.906
.921
.912
.905
playoffs
.880
.933
.908
.891
consistent? you gotta be ckidding me.
Look at brodeur’s #‘s. Now that’s consistency
Just for kicks, here’s Brodeur’s post lockout playoff sv %:
.923
.916
.891
.929
.881
That’s some pretty wild swings too, which is easy when you have a small sample size of games, as Brodeur’s had.
And that’s just one measure — Brodeur’s only played 37 post-lockout playoff games, winning just 15 games and 2 playoff series.
Compare that to Fleury’s 38 playoff wins alone in the same time frame.
Sure the team in front of him is really good, blah blah blah, but if just any goalie could win behind a good team guys like Theodore and Nabokov would have rings. I’m not saying Fleury’s better than Brodeur by any means, just pointing out he has been very successful and he receives very little recognition for that success. How that is being “over-rated” is something that escapes me.
Simply having a varying save percentage in the playoffs, behind a wide-open team that was prone to defensive breakdowns isn’t a slam-dunk argument in my eyes.
I think that about covers that. Now, if you’re ready, I’m ready to shake hands, call it a good debate and finally put this puppy to bed.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 10, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
For my actual picks for over/underrated:
Caps overrated – Laich, by a large margin
Caps underrated – I’d probably say Fehr
League overrated – Staal, Bouwmeester
League underrated – Kopitar, Streit
Most of these aren’t new picks. And considering everyone else is making many of the same choices, can you really say they are overrated/underrated? (In the media, definitely).
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
Another player I throw in the underrated category is Loui Eriksson. Man I love him. I know I saw someone else pick him above.
I feel like there are other players that I would pick for this, and talk about them being in these categories, but I’m drawing a blank on those players.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Aug 9, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Loui quite a bit. He looked great playing with Backs in the Olympics also.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
That line was my favorite one to watch this past winter. Too bad the team lack scoring depth.
"You ever use smelling salts, every time you type a bad blog?" Brooks Laich
That freaking boggles me. That team had three lines of players who should have been putting up huge numbers, especially the Sedins.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
It was really strange to watch, I agree. No idea what happened there.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
How about Rene Bourque? He’s a hell of a scorer at evens, it’s always confused me that he doesn’t get more recognition.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s a pretty good choice, though I’ve heard/seen a pretty good amount of R. Bourque love in the media, which is why I didn’t choose him, probably.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Aug 9, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Really? I’ve seen plenty of R. Bourque love in the media too, but it’s never been for Rene. Maybe I’m not reading the right places or watching NHL on the Fly.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps I’m just looking in all the right places.
But I can recall a few occasions of hearing people giving Bourque love for being the Flames’ only threat outside of Iggy Pop. (Though I can’t remember the sources.)
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Aug 9, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he’s already been mentioned, but your discussion of Eriksson reminded me of how awesome Brendan Morrow is.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
And Jamie Benn.
/personal favorite
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Jamie Benn is great. Unless RAHJC is on the ice :)
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
Benn only needed one (one!) crummy goal to get his name in the record books for most AHL playoff goals by a rookie. Karlzerson plus Neuvi wouldn’t let him get it.
Boot on the neck, and all that.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Love me some B. Morrow. The Stars have a few players I think are awesome.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Aug 9, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
A good amount of their players are becoming underrated because the team as a whole underachieves quitea bit
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
Overrated Cap: Viktor Kozlov
Underrated Cap: Joe Juneau
Overrated Current NHLer: Thomas Vanek (dishonorable mentions for D. Morris and J. Spezza)
Underrated Current NHLer: Anze Kopitar (honorable mentions for M. Gaborik and B. Richards)
Winterion Game Studios
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Oh how I liked Joey J on the caps. And oh how he frustrated me. Loved watching him handle the puck. And by the same token, I don’t know how many times I yelled at the screen, shoot the damn puck when he had it. His missed penalty shot vs the Pens in the marathon OT game will stick in my memory forever.
Totally on board with the Brad Richards pick. Gaborik can look like the best player in the world some nights and other nights I find him not even there
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
Still unconfirmed by league as far as I know.
I know, wrong thread.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
More Unders
After reading this thread, I came up with some more underrated players:
Shawn Thornton – the prototypical “fighter who isn’t useless the rest of the time.”
Paul Gaustad – he’s what David Steckel wishes he were.
Ian White – better than Phaneuf.
Niklas Hjamarsson – quietly the third-best defenseman on the Blackhawks.
Andrew Brunette – unfairly punished for being a crappy skater.
J.P. Dumont – consistent contributor on a team that struggles for offense.
Brian Rolston – great two-way player who has been overshadowed throughout his career.
Ryan Callahan – one of two Rangers worth more than he gets paid.
Mikael Samuelsson – can’t believe he was left off of Sweden’s Olympic team; neither could he.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
J.P. Dumont – consistent contributor on a team that struggles for offense.
Gotta say, surprised to see this. Not that he’s not underrated, but that he shows up at all.
JP gets dogged for his seemingly lackadaisical attitude, but the points still come. He’s an extraordinary passer of the puck.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
I really like that Samuelsson pic. He lit it up during the play-offs. 12 GP 8 G 7 A
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
Underated Cap – Larry Murphy
Remember Caps fans? He was hated by us. Brings to mind a certain player named Schultz
Overated Cap – definitely Flash.
by SkipjackCap on Aug 9, 2010 5:33 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
If Schultz was as good as Murphy, I might get over Volchkov.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Overrated Hall of Famer — Larry Murphy.
Glitzy offensive numbers in hockey’s most freewheeling era covered up a multitude of sins in his own end.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 9, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Brian Bellows had 13 points in the playoffs the year the Caps went to the Finals as a deadline acquisition – imported from Germany.
"Tikkanen's miss was not as dramatic as the penalty shot Joe Juneau missed in Washington's quadruple-overtime playoff loss to Pittsburgh two years [previous]." - Washington Post game recap 6/12/98
Tik got more press as a deadline acquisition that year, but it was Bellows who was the key piece in my mind. Brooks Laich should watch film of Bellows in those playoffs. It seemed like he was crashing the net every shift.
"You ever use smelling salts, every time you type a bad blog?" Brooks Laich
The team had too many excellent playmakers (Oates, Juneau) and not enough play-finishers or at least not doing their job as finishers [cough]. Wilson passionately and specifically wanted a puck hogging a-hole.
Hard to say what would have happened if they’d said “Oh well, couldn’t find any affordable shooters on the NHL market, we’ve got a lot of talent, let’s just see how it goes…”
"Tikkanen's miss was not as dramatic as the penalty shot Joe Juneau missed in Washington's quadruple-overtime playoff loss to Pittsburgh two years [previous]." - Washington Post game recap 6/12/98
Overrated Caps more modern options- Chris Clark, Jeff Halpern
For some reason “Leaders” (in quotes because neither’s squad won much of anything, OT goal by halpern aside) are assumed to be better at hockey than they are, fluke 30 goal season aside.
"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"
Clark’s wasn’t a fluke; everyone that’s played with Ovechkin has seen a huge bump in scoring. He got lucky during the season, but he was also playing with Alexander Ovechkin and banging home rebounds left, right and sideways.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
More Overs
Milan Lucic – I get why he’s popular, and I like his game, but he’s massively overrated by the Beantown Douchebag Brigade.
Tim Connolly – I know part of it’s injuries, but the guy has never scored 20 goals in a season and gets paid $4.5m.
John-Michael Liles – A massive disappointment; he’s regressed hugely over the course of his career.
Mike Commodore – Still living off that haircut and this picture.
Shawn Horcoff – The poster child for all that is wrong with the Oilers.
Ryan Smyth – Mike Knuble production for Nicklas Backstrom money.
Cal Clutterbuck – Strange how doing one thing that stands out can make you popular…
Anton Volchenkov – A defense-first defenseman who’s not all that great at playing defense, or staying healthy.
John Tavares – Didn’t look anything like a special talent last year, despite being force-fed opportunities to shine.
The New York Rangers
Ed Jovanovski – Never came close to living up to the hype.
Max Talbot – Gets far more hype than a guy who scores 10-12 goals ought to, based largely on one huge postseason.
Devin Setoguchi – Welcome to Chechoo-town, kid. Population, 2.
Eric Brewer – Plus/Minus is a flawed stat, but Brewer has only been on the right side of the ledger once in his entire career.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
What about Jussi Jokinen as underrated? Had over 30 goals last season.
The sky is the same color wherever you go.
by Steck It Out on Aug 9, 2010 7:58 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Old School
Most overrated Capital- Pete Peeters Benefitted from the tremendous defensive corps of the 80’s.
Most underrated Capital- Dave Christian Was a consistent 30 goal scorer during his stint with the Caps during the 80’s.
I’m going to go with present players, just because they are who I know best.
Underrated Cap – Boyd Gordon. Great faceoff man, strong PKer. Bad back has given him a bap rep though. Schultz would be close behind.
Overrated Cap – Flash. Too streaky, can’t maintain a consistent level of play. Yet still gets 2nd line minutes…
Underrated NHLer – St. Louis. I never realized how good a setup man he was until Stamkos took off.
Overrated NHLer – Cheechoo. One 50-goal season does not a star make.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
League:
Overrated – Many have been said… Heatley, Hossa, Briere (that might come from the many Flyers friends I have) and Tim Thomas.
Underrated – Could Stamkos fall in this category? I mean, I know he’s a great player but I’m not sure he gets the right amount of recognition for it. Usually when people talk about TB they mention Lecavalier and St. Louis.
"If I was being paid thirty-thousand dollars a year, the very least I could do was hit .400." - Ted Williams
Stamkos—He has a good dentist too.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Aug 10, 2010 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
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