Why the Caps Should - and Could - Be Trying to Trade David Steckel
by J.P. on Aug 13, 2010 9:10 AM EDT
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Print"According to multiple sources, free agent centre Eric Belanger has a one-year deal in waiting to return to the Washington Capitals. ... What's interesting is that he has been told not to announce [the deal] ... due to the fact the team he's headed to is working on a trade. ... [O]ne player the Caps are looking to trade is 26-year-old Tomas Fleischmann, who had 23 goals and 51 points in a bit of a breakout season last year and signed a one-year, $2.6-million deal this summer." - James Mirtle
That the Capitals would be looking to trade Tomas Fleischmann isn't terribly surprising in and of itself, given his troubling trend of late-season flameouts culminating in playoff failures. But sign-and-trade (with the ink still drying) has never been George McPhee's modus operandi, so the rumor at least raises an eyebrow.
So let's, for a moment, consider who else the Caps might be trying to move. Since the move would seem to be integrally related to re-signing Belanger, one can probably assume that it's a player who's made somewhat redundant by the return of the 32-year-old pivot, since it is much more likely to be a roster spot - and not salary - driving the deal (and that would explain the desire for GMGM to have the Belanger deal kept quiet, so as not to weaken his bargaining position). Katie Carrera offers the following:
Belanger's return will certainly make it an interesting battle for among a group of players potentially including Marcus Johansson, Brooks Laich, David Steckel, Boyd Gordon, Fleischmann and Mathieu Perreault for ice time behind top-line center Nicklas Backstrom.
Belanger, Perreault, Johansson, Laich and Fleischmann are probably all in the running for the second-line center spot (in varying degrees) at present, with one of Laich and Flash also as potential top-six wingers. No matter how that shakes out, Belanger, Laich and Fleischmann are locks for second or third line spots, with Alexander Semin also a second-line lock and Eric Fehr sure to be a top-nine forward. That leaves four forward spots (likely the third-line center and the entire fourth line) up for grabs, with Johansson the most likely candidate for the third-line center spot and Perreault, Gordon, Steckel, Matt Bradley and D.J. King fighting for three positions (to say nothing of a Hershey guy like Jay Beagle or Andrew Gordon making a bid). That's quite the logjam on the back end.
So if the Caps had their choice of whom to move from that surplus of checking forwards, who would they want to trade? Perreault has value as a fill-in on a higher line, especially if prized prospect Johansson isn't quite ready for the NHL. Bradley is a heart-and-soul leader, with a manageable contract - one year, $1 million. Gordon really stepped up his game in the playoffs last spring, but more importantly has a good deal - one year, $800,000. The Caps actively sought out King last month, so it surely wouldn't be him.
That leaves David Steckel, a fine enough fourth-liner (though be careful not to overstate the importance of a good faceoff percentage - see here, here and here), but with a bad contract, one that will pay him $1,100,000 in each of the next three seasons. It's not a cripplingly bad deal, of course, but rather one that's tough to love for a guy whose game regressed in 2009-10 (I strongly recommend re-reading his Rink Wrap) and who was a healthy scratch in four of the seven playoff games, when cheaper checkers like Blair Betts (and Boyd Gordon) seem to be available every summer. [Sidenote: in retrospect, this was not exactly GMGM's best day, eh?]
Could the Caps expect to get much of anything in return for Steckel? Probably not, unless they found a potential trade partner who was looking to unload a moderate salary to free up some cap space... which is where a team like Vancouver comes in. Say they move the oft-rumored Kevin Bieksa for Steckel. The 'Nucks save $2.65 million of cap hit (coincidentally, nearly the exact amount of salary they need to drop, per CapGeek), move a player from a position of overflowing depth, and better their bottom-six forwards. The Caps, in such a move, would upgrade their defense, move a player from a position of overflowing depth, be out from under Steckel's deal for the next three years, and pick up an affordable - and expiring - deal in Bieksa. Because it rids the team of a bad contract, a deal like that makes sense for the Caps in a way that signing Willie Mitchell doesn't (though, to be sure, a Mitchell signing makes sense in numerous ways this hypothetical would not, namely providing more of what the Caps need on the ice).
Over the past few years, Caps fans have fixated on what they perceive as bad deals - Michael Nylander's, John Erskine's, Tyler Sloan's or even Fleischmann's new contract. But Steckel's should join that group, and don't think that the powers-that-be don't know it and wouldn't try to do something about it.
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Damn you and your well-written analysis. I can’t add onto it, other than maybe re-examining the Clark for Chimera deal, an in-contract swap allowed the team to get younger and faster, and the allure of the in-contract deal would perhaps free a player that couldn’t be had otherwise.
But yeah, I’d help him pack if it could be pulled off.
Hasta siempre Jaime.
I don't even have to read the article
I already accept this as empirical truth. His stats have been sliding all season (regular and post), and he’s just not effective like he was a couple years back in the face-off dot. This, in addition to trading Flash, would make my lackluster free-agency dreams come true.
"Baseball was my first love... hockey is a sultry temptress and stole my heart." - Corey Masisak
You Guys Have It Easy
Complaining about a $1.1 million contract? My, my, JP, that’s just plain cheap.
By comparison; Paul Gaustad, a similar grinder, big bodied face off specialist has a $2.3 cap hit on a 4 year contract.
Comparison?
Steckel: 5 G, 11 A, 16 Pts, 4, 12:24 TOI, 637 FOW, 439 FOL, 1076, 59.2 FO%
Gaustad: 12 G, 10 A, 22 Pts, -7, 15:44 TOI, 599 FOW, 444 FOL, 1043 FO, 57.4 FO%
Gaustad’s goals totals are higher since he gets 2nd line PP time; but the fact remains for every Blair Betts; there’s someone else who’s worse.
Vance
BanginPanger.com
DoubleEdgedSabres.com
But Darcy Regier is a genius!
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 13, 2010 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
His wikipedia page is awesome
In March of 2008, Regier and Quinn decided not to re-sign All Star defenseman Brian Campbell as he would demand a heafty salary instead trading him along with a 7th round pick in the 2008 NHL Entry Draft to San Jose for a 1st round pick in the 2008 NHL Entry Draft and forward Steve Bernier , who has since been traded to Vancouver for a 2nd round pick in the 2010 NHL Entry Draft. During the 2007–08 NHL season, the first season without co-captains Drury and Briere, aside from losing Campbell, the Sabres went 39-31-12, missing the playoffs for the first time since the NHL lockout.
Regier is a foolish man who constantly mismanages the Sabres. His extreme stupidity has accounted for many unsuccessful seasons of hockey in Buffalo.
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 13, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Every little bit of cap space counts.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Aug 13, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m with Panger here. There are no bad 1.1 million contracts in the NHL for guys who earn a sweater every night. None. The salary cap has room for 1 million dollar grinders like Steckel and Bradley if (like Steckel and Bradley) they give you anything over a decent AHL replacement.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
There are no bad 1.1 million contracts in the NHL for guys who earn a sweater every night.
What about for guys who can’t in four of seven playoff games?
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by J.P. on Aug 13, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Steckel is not a fast guy. BB wanted speed vs Montreal. He certainly cracked a lot more than 4 out of 7 playoff games in the prior two campaigns.
You had me at no problem.
Then Steckel’s not a “sweater every night” guy.
by David Getz on Aug 13, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He was during the regular season, when he played 79 games. That playoff series was the exception, not the rule.
You had me at no problem.
What does that have to do with dropping Steckel? I’m not defending Flash, who needed to score points to be valuable.
You had me at no problem.
The point is that some guys seem to get a free pass for being unplayable in the playoffs while others don’t.
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I just don’t see where “unplayable” is coming from. “Not played” is different from “unplayable.”
The top 3 centers in the playoffs were a mix of Backstrom, Flash, BMo and Belanger. There was one center position available for two players: Boyd Gordon and Dave Steckel. So they alternated.
Boyd Gordon is better (when healthy) than Dave Steckel. That doesn’t make Steckel unplayable. He just drew the short straw.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Boyd Gordon is better (when healthy) than Dave Steckel. That doesn’t make Steckel unplayable.
But it sure makes him the most redundant of the group, therefore making JP’s article make sense, no?
Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.
Depth = redundancy
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Bottom line – if Gordo makes the most of his playoff chances and makes $800k a year, Stecks should be making well under that for being “unplayed” more often than not and for being completely ineffective when he’s out there.
We wouldn’t even be having this conversation if he or his agent wasn’t so greedy in January. I think everyone exhaled a cumulative “WHAT!?” when we read about his extension.
"Baseball was my first love... hockey is a sultry temptress and stole my heart." - Corey Masisak
I just don’t see where "unplayable" is coming from. "Not played" is different from "unplayable."
Fair enough, though if he was, y’know, better or more valuable to the team, he’d have played. Point being, he wasn’t playing when it mattered most.
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I agree with all of this. I wish Steckel was better. I just don’t get why that means he has to move. You need grinder depth.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think JP is saying he NEEDS to. I think the thought is that he’s the most likely to.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Yeah, that’s it. I’m happy keeping him here. All this is a guessing game based on the rumor that the Caps are trying to make a trade before bringing in Belly.
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Yep – they should look at trading him, IMO. They could be looking at trading him. But I didn’t say they need to trade him.
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79 out of 82 games sounds like a “sweater every night” guy to me. Plenty of guys miss a game or two here or there. Even that Ovechkin fella.
You had me at no problem.
See? He’s healthy, plays the PK. Why wouldn’t you trade him?
Hasta siempre Jaime.
by Bald Pollack on Aug 13, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the playoffs are a better indication of how important the coach thinks a guy is to the team’s success.
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Yes, and Steckel played in every single playoff game of the Flyers, Rangers, and Penguins series, and I don’t hear anyone saying that his healthy scratches vs Montreal were due to a decline in his level of play.
I agree that we have a logjam, and can afford to trade some guys from the bottom 6 forwards. But I think Steckel’s contract is a good one, not a bad one. And I value his contributions over the past several seasons too highly to agree with anyone saying he ought to be jettisoned.
You had me at no problem.
by Ninjak on Aug 13, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
The problem is that he only has one contribution, and that’s dot work. If we’re going to be consistent in giving youth a chance, why not in a spot where the impact isn’t as visible?
Hasta siempre Jaime.
by Bald Pollack on Aug 13, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Faceoffs aren’t his only contribution… They’re just his only area of dominance, or at least significantly above-average performance.
Our PK needs a big-time shakeup, but I’m not ready to declare Steckel a crappy PK guy just because the whole unit sucked. Yeah, give youth a chance. But don’t drop Steckel just to drop him. If we do trade him, we’d better get a decent return for him.
You had me at no problem.
His GVT (limited though it might be) is downright awful. He really isn’t contributing a whole lot other than FO%.
And I don’t think Steckel is a crappy PKer – though his footspeed leaves a lot to be desired – or is the problem with the PK. I think the PK’s issues are more about system than personnel, but a shift in the system, one that emphasizes pressuring the points more, etc., would likely make Stecks a worse, not a better, PKer, because of that lack of speed.
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No. Steckel is a crappy PKer. If he loses the draw, he’s a liability. He doesn’t use his reach/stick well enough to make up for his crippling lack of footspeed.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I don’t disagree. Guess I was allowing his FO% to mitigate somewhat the rest of his PKing abilities (or lack thereof). Or just being soft on him.
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The guy is too slow to valuable on any decent PK unless its an extremely passive system
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by Carl Putnam on Aug 13, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t hear anyone saying that his healthy scratches vs Montreal were due to a decline in his level of play.
His healthy scratches in Montreal were due, in part, to a decline in his level of play from last year’s playoffs. He was definitely worse than he was last year. I agree with JP that he regressed.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
79 out of 82 games sounds like a "sweater every night" guy to me.
And being scratched for more playoff games that you dress for says otherwise.
Plenty of guys miss a game or two here or there. Even that Ovechkin fella.
That’s a misleading point. The issue isn’t missed games, it’s being healthy scratched.
The bottom line is Steckel was scratched for the majority of the games in the playoffs. Part of that was because Gordon was healthy and playing well, and part was because the opponent’s style and skill didn’t suit Steckel’s own. But if you’re getting healthy scratched in playoff games, you’re not a “sweater every night guy”.
by David Getz on Aug 13, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
What about any other team they would have faced? Steckel’s size becomes more of an advantage and against some times, he even becomes respectably quick.
It was a fluke series that exposed the Capital’s lack of coaching talent, not lack of a fast 4th line center who won’t muck up polls.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
But Steckel can’t play above the fourth line effectively. He simply doesn’t have the footspeed or offensive acumen. Even when his size is an advantage, it’s not a big one.
More to the point of this post, he’s “the guy” who is most expendable, IMO, among those bottom forwards, whether he’s a valuable NHLer or not.
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I don’t think he is the most expendable, but his value to a generic team is disproportionate to his value to the Capitals. No one will touch Gordo in a million years because of his back, the AHL’ers are there for a reason. Steckel gets sent to the Winter Classic and looks like a real player. If the Caps have the ability to move anyone from the dregs, it’s going to be him.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
Why are we looking to expend our bottom forwards?
Look, I’ve spent a lot of time running capgeek lines — maybe too much time. 1 Million each for 3 or 4 grinders ain’t going to hurt your salary cap. Not if they’re all playing regularly.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
The Caps are about to re-sign a center. There’s a well-established logjam among the bottom six forwards. It’s a numbers game – it’s perhaps likely that someone’s gonna go (especially given that the re-signing seems contingent on just that). All this is is an exercise in guessing who that might be IF someone is headed out. And if not, there are a lot of guys fighting for a few spots and taking turns sitting (or stuck in Hershey).
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I don’t think there’s any more or less logjam for 4th line center than there was. Belanger or whoever else they bring in had better not be a 4th liner at any point this season.
Maybe the disconnect is that I long ago became comfortable with the fact that Steckel shouldn’t sniff the 3rd line. The Caps have two 4th line centers. You need two of them to get through the season — especially when one of them is named “Boyd Gordon.” Maybe they could dump Steckel and bring up Joudrey or Pinner or Beagle and save a few hundred thousand, but I don’t think it’d be worth the savings or the bad signal it sent to the organization.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
But the presumed presence of Perreault (full-time) and Johansson, as well as the Hershey guys who might be ready for their shots does increase the logjam down the middle. I don’t see how it doesn’t.
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As I said in more detail below, I don’t see “the middle” as unified. At least not this season.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
In other words, you wouldn’t put Perreault or Johansson at 4C, and you wouldn’t put Steckel or Gordon at 3C
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I buy that. Which could reasonably leave us with:
8-19-22
14-18-28
21-90/85-16
DK/25-15/39-10
That’s 15 forwards and doesn’t include Beagle, A. Gordon, Pinner, or any other HBH guys. They’re clearly not going to carry 15 forwards, so assume MarJo goes home or Perry is stuck back in Hershey? OK, down to 14… is that how you see the roster shaking out?
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90 is Johansson?
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, and to answer your question, I can’t make a sensible lineup with this set of forwards. This lineup is broken just like the Green-Poti-Schultz-Pothier-Morrisonn-Jurcina-Erskine lineup was broken. There needed to be a way to get Alzner in, and there wasn’t and I think it cost the kid some valuable development time.
Which is a long winded way of saying I hope they do move a 2nd or 3rd line forward type, because otherwise I don’t think prospects will get the opportunity they need at the NHL level.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
What about other teams? Maybe Steckel plays every game. Regardless, I don’t think it’s clear cut that he’s an every night player after this past postseason.
I think one issue is whether or not he’s good enough to play in the NHL every night, which I think he is. The other is whether he can do so on the Capitals, to which I say no.
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by red army line on Aug 13, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
So he only “earns a sweater” every night he’s considered versatile? Doesn’t sound like a good role player, nor good usage of $1.1 million to me.
Bottom line – if Gordo’s a playoff hero and making $800k a year, Stecks should be making well under that for riding the pine.
"Baseball was my first love... hockey is a sultry temptress and stole my heart." - Corey Masisak
We have two fourth line centers. One gets $800 a year and is hurt all the time, but when he can play he’s better than the one who gets 1.1 Million and is durable. I think the focus on their contracts is a bit myopic. And if the Caps are fortunate enough to have the depth to rotate their grinders, then that’s great for them.
I just don’t see this as an issue. I could see “Blair Betts is better than Dave Steckel so we should go out and get him.” But I don’t see Steckel as The Problem here.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see me saying he’s The Problem. I see me saying that his would be a good contract to move if afforded the chance, and one that the team could very well be looking at.
Everyone wants to say, “They’re gonna move Flash!” but I just don’t think that’s the most likely scenario, so I posited another option that, to me, makes a lot of sense.
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I don’t think the focus is on the contract. Dave’s in a fairly replaceable role, so the contract becomes a little more alluring to someone who may want him.
Hasta siempre Jaime.
by Bald Pollack on Aug 13, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
But if not for the contract, why try to get rid of him?
As far as I’m concerned, there’s only one player on the roster that can’t be upgraded. Of course I’d prefer a better fourth line center. But why are we singling him out for replacement?
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Because he makes over a million dollars, I think.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
but he just said the focus isn’t on the contract
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
You keep missing my point. He’s being singled out (by me) as the most likely to be moved given his contract, on-ice contribution and organizational depth. I’m not saying anywhere that he needs to be moved because the Caps need someone else in there who is better than David Steckel.
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I’ll back out, I think we’re throwing two different things out there.
Hasta siempre Jaime.
by Bald Pollack on Aug 13, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess I just consider 4C in Boudreau’s system to be a different position. I see his competition as being Boyd Gordon and a bunch of AHLers. And whatever happens above them is irrelevant to that position.
I’ll make it even clearer — if a 1C, 2C or 3C gets hurt, I expect they won’t get replaced by Steckel or Gordon for more than a night. I expect you’d see Perreault or Johansson or someone like that fill in.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
If I’m a GM looking for 4th line help and not confident of what I have in the pipeline for bottom 6 forwards and a healthy 4th line C who sees a lot of PK time is available, why not?
Hasta siempre Jaime.
by Bald Pollack on Aug 13, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
As far as I’m concerned, there’s only one player on the roster that can’t be upgraded.
Can’t be upgraded? Or can’t be realistically upgraded? If the latter, wouldn’t you include Backstrom on that list?
It has to be the first.
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by red army line on Aug 13, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
There is only one roster spot that could not possibly be filled by a better player.
I love Backstrom, but he’s not the best center in the league.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t disagree with that, so in terms of absolute upgrade, he can be replaced (though i’d argue the list is extremely short). In terms of “realistic” upgrade, where you have to factoring in cap space, etc, are there other centers you think could fit here as an upgrade to nick?
Then there are probably seven spots. 1LW, 1C, 1RW, 2RW, 1D, 1G, 2G
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by red army line on Aug 14, 2010 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions
1.1mil may be a bit much for what Stecks brings to the table, but it’s only a tiny bit and I would say the advantages of depth, that killer faceoff percentage, and the potential to develop (though unlikely) into a good PKer far outweigh the incredibly longshot pick or prospect we’d get in return and the miniscule cap savings that the GM would likely just use to pick up depth each deadline anyway.
McPhee seems to like depth even more than your average GM. Just look at the way he loaded up on it at the deadline last year and the number of 7th/8th d-man and 13th/14th forwards contracts he seems to collect.
The operating theory here is that Steckel would be moved not for picks/prospects, but for cap relief; in other words, Steckel goes for a roster player that makes, say, 3 times what Steckel makes, and the other team gets under the cap.
Further speculation: GMGM is trying to winkle a pick (like the 2011 2nd rounder that went to Carolina?) or prospect out of the deal, and that’s why he wanted to keep the lid on the Belanger signing.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I wouldn’t mind seeing Steckel in a Devils uni. Helps deal with the team’s faceoff problems.
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 13, 2010 9:28 AM EDT reply actions
That would be a lot of fun – Steckel is the kind of player that the crazies up in section 230 would absolutely hate (I’m a Devils STH, since I live in North Jersey).
I’d love to hear the guy constantly ragging on Colin White and Mike Mottau give his opinion of Steckel’s finishing prowess in four-letter words only.
Even then, i’m sure i’ll be distracted by Rolston’s underwhelming play to rag on Steckel (unless he really sucks).
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 13, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
So who fills the 4th line center spot when Gordon’s back goes all wonky again? Saving the $1.1 million would be great, but if Gordon is constantly tweaking his back again this year then the $800K for him plus the $600K or so for a call-up looks a llot worse. Though one could do worse than Backstrom, Belanger, Mackan, and a Gordon combo down the middle with Perrault filling in at 3C or 4C as needed, I guess – still leaves too many unknowns, and I wouldn’t like to see the Caps carry it into the playoffs.
Jay Beagle or Steve Pinnizzotto would both be adequate at filling that role. Maybe even Andrew Joudrey.
Exactly. The 4C gets younger, cheaper and a bit more agile.
Hasta siempre Jaime.
by Bald Pollack on Aug 13, 2010 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Plus there are still free agents out there if the team’s really that worried. The team loses faceoff ability by adding in, say, Petteri Nokelainen and subtracting Steckel, but is that faceoff prowess alone worth an additional $600k and the lack of speed?
To say nothing for a (hopefully) more competent PK unit.
Hasta siempre Jaime.
by Bald Pollack on Aug 13, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
So who fills the 4th line center spot when Gordon’s back goes all wonky again?
One thing the Caps have is versatility among their forwards. The center possbilities among 14 roster forwardss for frou slots (if Steckel is moved) would include…
Nicklas Backstrom
Tomas Flesichmann
Mathieu Perreault
Boyd Gordon
Brooks Laich
Eric Belanger (assuming that rumored deal is, in fact, in place)
If Gordon misses time, there are options.
If you've read this far...seek help.
I hadn’t remembered that Steckel sat out four playoff games.
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by red army line on Aug 13, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree for the most part, but the fact that Stecks has a very specific role (faceoffs) and by contrast, Flash seems to be “jack of all trades, master of none” makes me slightly more hesitant to pick 14 over 39.
A Capital Wasteland - art & hockey from Washington, D.C.
Belanger’s pretty good at faceoffs, though. So if Steckel gets move for a D, we have Belanger to take those crucial draws that Stecks was taking, and Gordon is always there to lend a hand as well.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
Andrew or Boyd?
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 13, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Definitely not Flash.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Aug 13, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d suggest folks (not just you) take a look at those faceoff articles I linked to in the post. It’s easy to overrate the importance of that one skill.
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It’s the Vinny Intimidation factor
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Aug 13, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair point. It’s pretty contrary to common logic though! You’d think FO% = possession = goals. I understand it’s wrong, I’m just still trying to wrap my head around it.
A Capital Wasteland - art & hockey from Washington, D.C.
by Jake Shapiro on Aug 13, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. And in Steckel’s case, more accurately, it’s FO% = possession = no goals (i.e. winning D-zone draws).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Each FO win is worth about 1/4 of a shot, on average, if I’m recalling what I’ve read around the stat-o-sphere correctly.
By that metric, Stecks won 442 ES faceoffs and lost 280. 442 minus 280 = 162. If we assume league average goaltending (~.916 SV% at ES) then Steckel put the shot counter 40.5 shots to the good and 3.4 goals were either scored or prevented by those FO wins at ES.
On the PP, Steckel won 186 and lost 150, for a delta of 36 shots. I don’t know how many shots an FO win is worth on the PK, but I assume it’s larger than at ES, let’s say it’s .5 shots instead of .25 since the team is going to have a harder time clearing out once the PP wins the draw and sets up. PP S% is more like 13 or 14, again rough numbers. If that’s the case, then Steckel prevented another 2.52 goals on the PK by winning faceoffs, for a total of 5.92 goals added, either prevented or scored as a result of the draw. We can expect that Steckel’s line shoots significantly below the NHL average at ES; he’s a grinder, so are his linemates, so that number probably comes down some.
Most metrics we can find suggest that David Steckel isn’t worth an extra win all on his own, so he’s significantly below replacement level in other aspects of the game; if he wants to be worth 1.1 million a season and a sweater per night, he’s got to find another way to add value. The FOs alone aren’t going to cut it on a championship level team.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 11 recs
Your number-crunching ability never fails to astound. Phenomenal angle on the situation.
Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.
I stand on the shoulders of people who are significantly smarter and more facile with data than I am; none of this would be possible without their work.
Gabe Desjardins, Tom Awad, Alan Ryder, Vic Ferrari, Sunny Mehta, JLikens and a few other folks have really pushed the ball forward for the rest of us.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Extremely nice work, sir.
What goal delta translates into a Win in the NHL?
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
About 6 goals, according to Behind the Net.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I saw on BtN that a win costs about $2.3M?
If we discount Steckel’s 5.92 goal delta by 50% to account for shooting pct variances, he’s worth just less than a half a win…and his salary is just less than half the average cost of a win, right?
Wouldn’t that tend to suggest that he’s being paid just about right?
Of course, that depends if my memory of BtN’s number is correct – I’m going to try to find it.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
That was last season, the price for a win in free agency increased this year.
I wouldn’t discount his 5.92 goal delta (PK numbers very fuzzy, also no accounting for difficulties clearing zones after a D zone win, which Steckel took more of than O zone draws) by 50%, probably more like 30%, but he’s taking significant dings for his weakness in other playing areas; he’s not skilled enough to move the puck up the ice consistently, he can’t finish chances to save his life, he’s not offensively creative and he’s slow. That shows up in other metrics, like Corsi and GVT (.1 GVT, or a tenth of a goal versus a replacement level player), which suggests that he’s BAD when he’s not on the dot. If those metrics are even close to right, dude is way overpaid at 1.1; he’s replacement level while his faceoffs are among the very best in the league. Less that, he’s an AHL player.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Found it – I’m mostly wrong.
The correct number is $2.3M/win for UFA skaters.
Per this article, RFA years get discounted at about 40% of UFA years, so we can do some math with regard to Steckel, assuming the formula translates across metrics:
Discounting $2.3M by 40% gets you to $1.38M/win for RFA skaters (note that Steckel’s current 3 year extension, by my calculations, buys out all his RFA years but no UFA years).
If Steckel is indeed worth a half-win based on his faceoff pct, and that’s all he’s worth, his salary ought to be about $690K.
I’ll next take a look at his offensive and defensive GVT numbers, to see if he potentially ought to get a couple of goals added in there.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
KH has it above, but Steckel’s GVT numbers are abysmal. 0.1 total GVT, ahead of only Q. Laing and behind such notables as Keith Aucoin, Alexandre Giroux and Scott Walker – and, if I’m not mistaken, GVT is a counting stat, and Steckel had a lot more TOI than those guys.
So if we take KH’s suggestion and discount his 5.92 goal delta by 30%, it comes to 4.14. Add in his tenth of a goal, and he’s sitting right about 4.25 goals above replacement, or 71% of a win.
Sticking with the $1.38M per RFA win for the moment, and Steckel “ought” to be getting about $980K. So he’s slightly overpaid to the tune of about $120K.
As Desjardins noted, win-value is “hand-wavey” at best, and this calculation above is nothing if not quick and dirty. But it tells us that Stecks is sort of in the right ballpark, especially if you factor in the increased price of win after this year’s FA cycle.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I’m pretty sure the FO stuff is already included in GVT; he’s worth one tenth of one goal over a replacement level player with that included.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Yikes.
Well, then, he’s really overpaid. Nice extension, George.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
So what that basically says is that David Steckel’s faceoff skills are good enough to win you an extra game over the course of a season and the rest of his game is so bad that it’ll lose you a game in comparison with an AHL call-up over the course of a season.
There’s no way he’s worth 1.1. I know it’s hard to get mad about a guy with a million dollar contract, but imagine how angry we’d all be if Flash had gotten an extra 500k on top of what he did. Overpayment is overpayment, no matter how far down the salary scale you go and the relevant figure is absolute dollars of overpayment, not percentage.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I think, and I’m not sure, that top-6 forwards and bottom six forwards get paid differently per win. Top six around $2 million, and bottom six around $1 million, I think.
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by red army line on Aug 14, 2010 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
We can expect that Steckel’s line shoots significantly below the NHL average at ES; he’s a grinder, so are his linemates, so that number probably comes down some.
I think this is really the crux of the issue. If he wins a draw on the PK and we clear the puck, that’s great. Otherwise, his ability to gain possession doesn’t help us as much as it would were he on a scoring line, or if he possessed some scoring ability himself.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Great stuff KHTAD and everyone else who contributed, but I do have a quibble — there are a lot of nested assumptions in all of these analyses. Throughout this thread many new and relatively untested metrics are stacked on top of each other. The result is a false specificity — for example the conclusion that the appropriate salary for the guy is $690,000, not 700k or 650k.
My feeling is that he’s a little overpaid, but that the instant you move Steckel you start trying to replace him. I’m not sure it’s worth it to save less than 500K. Now, if you tell me there’s a better player available for that role, I’m all ears.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The false specificity is entirely my fault, and I’ll own up to it.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Nono, I’m glad you didn’t round. That kind of analysis gets worse if everyone rounds to “about 3 GVT” and “about 700k.” Pretty soon you’re off by 20%, 30% just from rounding errors.
Just a reminder about taking this stuff with a grain of salt. Steckel played 79 games and scored 5 goals and 11 assists. That’s terrible, especially given the expectations folks had for him and his salary. And there’s no rounding needed for 79, 5, and 11…
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think these metrics are best used in conjunction with what your eyes tell you. I think our eyes have collectively told us that Gordon is superior to Steckel and that the dropoff from Steckel to his AHL replacement (in the likely event that Gordo gets injured) isn’t enough to offset the cost savings of moving Steckel’s contract.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
to his AHL replacement
Who? That’s my issue. Who in the org is a better second-4C than Steckel. Because you can’t go into the season trusting Gordon to play 82.
(and if the sentence “Who in the org is a better second-4C than Steckel” isn’t the perfect August sentence, I don’t know what is)
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Who in the org is a better second-4C than Steckel.
This is the wrong question to ask. The better question is, “which potential 4C represents the smallest performance decline from David Steckel while maximizing cap space gains.” Chances are, they won’t be “better,” but they’ll be cheaper by enough of a margin to offset their minimal performance decrement.
Potential names here include: Beagle, Bruess, Pinizzotto, or Andrew Joudrey.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Unless the team actually uses the money on an acquisition, this is a recipe for going into April with a worse team and more cap space.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
They do have to actually use the money on an acquisition, but I don’t see them as shy about pulling the trigger if need be.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The 4th line isn’t going to play a ton of minutes. Cross that bridge when the river comes.
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by red army line on Aug 14, 2010 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Jeff Halpern is a free agent.
Just sayin’.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
There are a lot of nested assumptions, but even making very favorable assumptions about David Steckel leads me to think that he’s probably not worth much more than a replacement player. Saving 500k of capspace is very big when it comes to the trading deadline, especially if the team is going to sign Belanger and another D.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
The one thing that is almost a certainty… Steckel is on his last contract with the Caps. Unless you are core, you are a replacement part until your next raise comes along. Sometimes a guys will get one raise with the club (as Steckel did), but he won’t get another one.
If you've read this far...seek help.
Saving 500k of capspace is very big when it comes to the trading deadline, especially if the team is going to sign Belanger and another D.
But to me, not at the expense of having a viable option at a position currently being held by someone you can’t count on to finish the season.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
That really depends on the delta of the acquisition(s) at the deadline given the cap space, or not. The goal is the Cup, not the 82 game regular season; who they finish the season with is much more important than who they start the season with. If that 500K is the difference between say, Brad Richards at 2C versus not Brad Richards at 2C, it’s much better to go through the season with only Gordon as the prospective 4C. I understand that this isn’t a guarantee, but I don’t see those guys (4Cs) as being difficult to acquire at the deadline if necessary. Scott Walker was a 4W and he was had for a 7th round pick – a pick that likely never plays an NHL game.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t agree with any plan that has Boyd Gordon starting the season at 4C with no depth behind him.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, let’s say that starting the regular season with the proper 4C depth is important; how much worse is the team, really, if you have to replace Boyd Gordon with an AHL-level call-up? Two games? One game? There’s no ripple effect — the Gordon bumping anyone down the depth chart by his presence; he’s the 4C.
The Caps are still winning the SE with that situation and another 4C is easy to acquire at the deadline, whereas that 500K in cap space turns into 2 million extra over the course of the season up to the deadline. The risk is, at most, 5 points in the EC standings for a chance to acquire a 2C, who’ll bump 3 people down the depth chart and make the team stronger.
If that’s the choice, I can get on board with BG15 starting as 4C with no depth behind him.
Or signing Jeff Halpern and getting whatever they can for David Steckel.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d be on board with moving Steckel to make room for a better player even if the cost is higher. Halpern for between 1 and 1.5 Million would certainly improve this team.
I’m not on board with moving Steckel for just the cap space, since I think it’s unlikely the cap situation will be all that dire this year. They can afford Brad Richards later in the season anyway.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
That really depends on if they acquire another D and for how much, plus the certainty of injury callups eating into the cushion at some point.
I wouldn’t lose sleep over moving Steckel for cap space. I don’t think it’s the optimal solution, but I don’t think the team is ill-served by that either, especially with a guy like Halpern still out there.
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by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
The injured reserve needs depth too. Best to unload a 4th line center that is a dime a dozen for one of the more prolific IR players of our decade to help beef up the list.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
Best to unload a 4th line center that is a dime a dozen for one of the more prolific IR players of our decade to help beef up the list.
Or for one of the other players who have been developing their skills in Hershey to give it a shot and who doesn’t skate like they’re in quicksand.
Hasta siempre Jaime.
by Bald Pollack on Aug 13, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of Hershey, how about a fast 4th line center that has scoring abilities (13-28-41, +40 last season), as well as really mixes it up like a good 4th liner should (124 PIMs)?
Ladies and Gentlemen, may I present …Steve Pinizzotto.
"HISTORY DOESN’T MATTER!!! .... Who cares if it’s never been done? We aren’t those teams who failed before. We are in control of our own destiny, and we will make it happen our own way.." - A Gordon, June 2010
Pinner needs to be a bit more disciplined, but he’ll get a sniff.
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Except Pinizzotto plays wing at the pro level, not center and the suggestion above is that he plays center. Agree he needs to be more disciplined. His being successful at the next level will be impacted by whether or not he can adjust to a 2 ref system and reign in his antics. I do think his improved skating and contributions on the PK will get him a look at some point if there are injuries.
by sk84fun_dc on Aug 13, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think Pinner will play at least a handful, maybe even two. He’s kind of like a well rounded Chimera. Or at least, he sacrifices some of his speed for hands slightly softer than concrete. Still the sort of all out, intangible/grit hockey.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
Chimera scored one fewer goal in equal halves of time last year, and his 15 goals and 34 points were the second-highest in his career.
The stone hands belong to the subject of this post.
/db’d
Hasta siempre Jaime.
by Bald Pollack on Aug 13, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s what I like about him too. That pesky, in-your-face, in the Avery-mold, that, other than Chimmy, is lacking in the Caps roster.
"HISTORY DOESN’T MATTER!!! .... Who cares if it’s never been done? We aren’t those teams who failed before. We are in control of our own destiny, and we will make it happen our own way.." - A Gordon, June 2010
I’d rather have Joudrey
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s most definitely not. The “bad thing” (and like I said in the post, it’s not all that bad) is the length of the commitment to this player. His contract (in dollars) says, “I can play 3rd line, too, if needed.” His performance says otherwise. So he’s an over-compensated fourth-liner for the next three years. Not the end of the world, but not ideal.
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in the risk of turning this into a caption contest
“You got something on your cheek?”
“Where here?”
“no”
“here?”
“Here.. just let me…”
by Brainumbc on Aug 13, 2010 9:51 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
You just pull that thumb outta your ass?
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Aug 13, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
“Wait, you’re not Hooks Orpik?”
“Nope, I’m Brooks Orpik.”
“Oh, never mind then….”
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 13, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
...
Or his his brother
Money don't make my world go round...i'm reaching out to a higher ground
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 13, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Aw, lookit the cute pudgie-wudgie widdle Penguin! Don’t you just wanna pinch his cheeks?
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by IRockTheRed on Aug 13, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
‘’ESPN tells me there’s a 42% chance you’re really going to like this.’’
"Baseball was my first love... hockey is a sultry temptress and stole my heart." - Corey Masisak
Hypothetically I would take someone like B-Mo again than Stecks (my apologies to the kittens). Steckel’s slowness of foot, mediocre finishing touch and not helpingmuchness on the PK makes me think he is rather expendable.
Then again my first sentence may betray my bias in that I am a Wolverines fan and have a definite dislike for Buckeye related things.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Aug 13, 2010 10:01 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I dug Bmo. But my only problem with him is that he started strong and then sort of faded out like Flash and Laich did.
I’d go with Bmo over stecks, though. I’d be tempted to go with Bmo over Flash.
BMo plays a different position.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
The new album cover for Spinal Tap’s Smell the Glove.
A Capital Wasteland - art & hockey from Washington, D.C.
by Jake Shapiro on Aug 13, 2010 10:01 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
reply fail.
A Capital Wasteland - art & hockey from Washington, D.C.
by Jake Shapiro on Aug 13, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Despite the Reply fail, that gets a Rec.
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 13, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Boy, if you think Bruce would blubber when the Caps traded away Flash, I don’t wanna imagine the waterworks if the Caps trade away Steckel.
Yes, the “Bruce’s other son” factor is at play here.
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Ugh, the more I think about the personnel management in that series the more my blood boils. For BB, too many choices appears to lead to bad decisions. He seems to work best trying to make do with what he has. From that perspective, trade Steckel and maybe even another depth C. Can’t leave too much of that in BB’s hands. (That is only partially snark..)
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → b a (select) start
Can I just say how proud/happy I am that, even amidst disagreement, the words “proven playoff performer” haven’t appeared in this thread… yet.
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by J.P. on Aug 13, 2010 10:07 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
You just had to go and ruin it..
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
and of course, Steckel ...
saves kittens.
(courtesy of RedBirdie and her hubby)
If you want to survive out here, you've got to know where your towel is.
by ns on Aug 13, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hey, it gave us today’s discussion.
/brings it full circle
Hasta siempre Jaime.
by Bald Pollack on Aug 13, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Brads really needs to bring back the crazy hobo look.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
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by RedBirdie on Aug 13, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Steckel isn’t someone I would have thought of as trade bait, but this makes a lot of good points. We already know Gordon can fill the 4C spot, and someone else could take his wing spot if that happened.
There are a couple small points in the article I would disagree with, but none that would affect the premise. I can’t see Belanger being a major competitor for the 2C spot, even if Flash gets traded. I think he is a lock for 3C. He hasn’t shown that he has the offensive ability to be top-6. Also, I don’t see Perrault as being in competition for the 4th line. I would think that the likely 4th liner if Steckel got moved would be Chimera, and that MP would more likely get a shot at either the 3rd or possibly 2C (although I think that’s less likely).
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
If Belanger doesn’t come in and play as the second line center, who does?
I agree he’s not ideal, but if he signs, he’s probably the team’s best bet (for the time being, at least).
MP, MJ, Laich, or Flash if he’s still here. I don’t see Belanger as being better at 2C than Flash or Laich, and I don’t see him having a better skill set for it than MP or MJ – although I would have to see if either of them can work on the 2nd. I just don’t see Belanger as having the offensive weapons for 2C.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Long-term, I agree. But short-term, I agree with DMG that he’s the best 2C option until MP or MJ takes that spot and pushes him to 3C. That’s one thing you get with Belanger – a bit of versatility.
Don’t get me wrong – I don’t love his skill level or his size and think the Caps are boned if he’s their 2C in April. But I think he could start the season there.
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True. I think the early part of the season can be used for trying players in some of those positions.. And I could see starting the season with MP/MJ as 3C behind Belanger – just as long as that isn’t the case come January. The lines do need some time to develop chemistry.
The one thing that could change my mind on this is how well Belanger can fit into the Caps system. Last season, he wasn’t given much time to adapt to a radically different system from the one he had been in, and therefore was less useful than he could have been. But with a full training camp, he might adapt better.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
He’ll be able to have his family with him too. That would be very nice.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Maybe he doesn’t like his family. Maybe he enjoys peace and quiet.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
or enjoys partying with Ovechkin.
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
To be more specific with why I think Belanger wouldn’t fit at 2C, his best season was 17G, 20 A, 37 P. And that was when he was with the Kings. For most of his career, he has been 13-17G, 15-25A – and I haven’t seen anything from him to make me think that would change.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
I totally agree he’s not a good second line center, I just think he’s their best option at the moment. I don’t think the team’s going to give the spot to Perreault or Johansson out of camp and I still like Belanger as a center better than Flesichamnn as a center.
Basically I see him as a placeholder, either until someone else proves they can play 2C or until the team picks up someone from outside the organization. Not ideal, but maybe the best course of action.
I like Belanger as a center better than Flash as a center as well, I just don’t know about as 2C. But I would be fine with Belanger being given the spot at first, while MP/MJ are tried at 3rd to see how they’ll work in the NHL. Ideally, MJ would be able to replace Belanger by January or so. Have to wait and see though.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
Agree with everything except the idea of MJ replacing Belanger anytime this season. Better chance of MP doing that on 3C. Good call on his stats.
"Baseball was my first love... hockey is a sultry temptress and stole my heart." - Corey Masisak
Actually, his best season was last season: 15-26-41. And he’s been a pretty consistent player for the otherwise offensively-limited Wild.
Belanger gives the Caps a four month or so opportunity for auditions. Perhaps Perreault does overachieve in what would be his rookie year to split ES ice time with Belanger (neither seem likely to get much in the way of power play minutes, Belanger probably gets more PJK ice time). Perhaps Marcus Johansson shows — by, say, January — that he is a bona fide option at 2C and gives the Caps the luxury of moving Belanger to the 3C position. Perhaps neither works out, and the Caps are looking for a deadline deal that pushes Belanger down a notch.
Belanger is a perfectly fine October solution for the 2C. He is not a perfect April (may or June) solution.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Aug 13, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully he won’t get traded to the S.E.C. – I’m pretty sure that’s a guaranteed beatdown for any osu player.
Choking since 1985.
by macvechkin on Aug 13, 2010 11:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hopefully he won’t get traded to the S.E.C. – I’m pretty sure that’s a guaranteed beatdown for any osu player.
Choking since 1985.
by macvechkin on Aug 13, 2010 11:16 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
God, I hope not; that contract is a real bear for a guy who’s brain just got turned into mush and is on the dark side of 30.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Is a much better two-way player and his contract expires after this year; I’d be all over Bergeron for 2C, as you know.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Yessir, I do know, and I’m firmly in that boat with you.
Steckel for Bergeron!!
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
As much as I hate to say it...
…I have to agree with JP here. If the Caps are going to bring back Belanger, and if MP85 is ready to step up, then Steckel isn’t really needed on the roster.
I love how Stecks plays the game, and I love how he is able to intimidate linesmen when facing off with Vinny Lecavalier (for that alone, he gets my respect…) but in reality this Caps team doesn’t need him. One of the facts of being on a good team is that role players on good teams sometimes get replaced as the years go by because there are better roleplayers out there.
Matthew Perreault has nothing left to prove in the AHL. He is ready for the NHL, and should make the Caps either as the second or third line center in 2010-11. If he doesn’t make it, then that is a major disappointment. If he does make it, and the Caps resign Belanger, then Steckel can be let go. While a team that wins a Stanley Cup can have Stecks on it, this particular team doesn’t need him right now and he’d be better suited (and get more ice time) playing elsewhere.
I also would not bet against him having a good year and taking a step forward if he lands somewhere else. I also would not be too upset if he were to remain with the Caps. The guy gives a great effort every night….and that’s all you can ask.
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
YES
Hate to say it too but Steckel has outlived his usefulness to the Caps. He is not fast enough and his motor seems to run on idle too much. It will be sad since Stecks has such a good character but oh well its Hockey not a dinner party.
Not sure about Bieksa though.
Interesting article. I’m not sure if i completely agree that Steckel should be shopped, but it is a reasonable argument. I’m just not confident that a change would end up being a good thing, cant figure out why. Maybe I just don’t like change for (all intents and purposes,) change’s sake. Is there a definite upgrade to him in the system? Or just a few guys who could potentially maybe have a chance at being an upgrade? That said, if he is moved I’ll feel bad for him but I wont shed a tear or anything, and I won’t worry about the future of the 4th line, either.
Also, I disagree with this:
with Johansson the most likely candidate for the third-line center spot
Are we that sure he is ready for a full time job on North American ice? I am really wary of the hype that has built up around Johansson and the hope that he will land a starting job right away. I guess I prefer to be more reserved about such things. Prospects are so very rarely “sure things.”
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → b a (select) start
Also, I disagree with this:No. But based on everything that was said around Dev’t Camp, it sure sounds like he’s going to be here, and I think a 3C spot to start is more realistic than a 2C spot (which is probably the other option). I share your hesitation and reservations.
with Johansson the most likely candidate for the third-line center spotAre we that sure he is ready for a full time job on North American ice?
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With Johansson, it is an NHL or Europe thing, correct? He isn’t going to be in the AHL?
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → b a (select) start
If he doesn’t make the Caps, he can go back to Europe if he chooses (or he could, theoretically, go to Hershey, but it’s his choice, technically, and not the Caps’).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I hope it’s Hershey. I recall Mackan himself said in one of his interviews that he needs to get use to the speed and physicality of the NA game.
"HISTORY DOESN’T MATTER!!! .... Who cares if it’s never been done? We aren’t those teams who failed before. We are in control of our own destiny, and we will make it happen our own way.." - A Gordon, June 2010
This is why signing Belanger for this year is important. Should Mackan and MP flame out, there’s another piece on the roster.
The ice will show everything.
Meant to say “Should Mackan and/or MP flame out”….
And as noted above, with the possibility that Mackan could be in the SEL rather than in North America, Belanger is just that much more insurance.
The ice will show everything.
Haven’t we heard that Johansson’s Elitserien team has pretty much moved on from him?
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
My first reaction to a Bele deal was: We tried that last year…but I guess GMGM is buying insurance/ stop gap in case none of his prospects pan out or take longer than expected to develop. I just hope it doesn’t lead to continuous line shuffling all year. Outside of the 1st and 4th line we never seem to develop any chemistry.
No, the caps liked him and tried to re-sign him early. But he wanted a 3 or four year deal and a bit of a raise, which the caps wouldn’t do. Then he wanted to play for the Habs, but they were capped out.
Now that the reality of the crappy UFA market has made itself clear, he’s willing to sign for one year.
And he did like playing for the Caps, he had many nice things to say about Ovie.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Question
Why would we need to wait to officially announce Belanger’s signing until after a trade is completed? We have enough cap room to get him w/o a trade.
by 8vechkin on Aug 13, 2010 11:58 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
My guess is that it’s not so much “need” as “want.” If GMGM is negotiating to deal a forward to another team, the last thing he wants is for that other team to know he’s essentially signed another forward already. It moves GMGM from “wanting” to make a trade to something closer to “needing to,” reducing his leverage in a deal.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
And now it is all moot because the deal has leaked anyway. Leverage lost.
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → b a (select) start
Right. Which is why GMGM is probably nuclear about it leaking.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Aug 13, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Doubt it – GMGM doesn’t act on emotion insofar as I can tell.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
But he won’t forget either. It will come back to haunt Belanger’s agent or whoever leaked it at some point. It could be as petty as not providing the agent with tickets to a playoff game or not returning phone calls, etc.
Howvever, GMGM won’t let this get in the way of business.
As Arnold Horshack once said on an old episode of Welcome Back, Kotter — “When you least expect it, expect it.”
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by STLSpidey on Aug 13, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Belly’s loudmouth agent has conducted his entire offseason in the Quebecois media. I’ve been able to follow almost all of their negotiations.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Wow. That just bad form. Unless he gets the best players like Scott Boras does, his style will hurt his clients.
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
iirc, Belanger’s agent is a former defense attorney for Joran van der Sloot
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
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Does he advertise his services on large billboards, late night television, and the front of the yellow pages?
Dial 1-800-UR-AGENT?
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
Naw, he was a “white-shoe” defense attorney rolling in big bucks in NYC. He decided to be a sports agent and is now bitching about crummy hotels in Drummondville, QC.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Sooo, how long until he’s back to being a defense attorney?
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
Heh. I thought of that the moment I typed what I did.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
After reading through here, there are a couple of things going on that I think deserve some attention.
One, as JP noted, Steckel is overpaid relative to the role he can adequately perform. Not horrible overpaid, but in the end, paid like a guy that he just can’t be.
Two, as Gouldie pointed out, the currently available players do not translate into a workable lineup. The team has too many wings, not enough centers, such that the whole is less than the sum of the parts.
This begs the question, who do you move in order to make the lineup (more) coherent? If the logjam is at wing, it seems counterintuitive to move a center (i.e., Steckel). But if there are reasonable and cheap replacements at Hershey that provide a hedge against B. Gordo’s back, then Steckel begins to make more sense.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I think the point JP is trying to make is that Steckel is attractive trade-bait. The Caps have someone pretty close / better than Steckel at 4C. A LOT of teams don’t: $1.1m for a decent 4C is a massive deal. He might get overpaid, but if you thumb around other 4C contracts they get paid quite a bit for the same amount that Steckel brings to the table.
Right now I’d rather move a wing but if the chance arises to gain something valuable by dealing Steckel — why not? I wouldn’t actively shop him but if someone is offering a fit for the Capitals, you immediately throw Steckel’s name out there. I said it earlier and I’ll say it again: Steckel’s value to the Caps is disproportionate to his value to any number of teams in the NHL.
He’s an every night sweater guy. He would be with the Capitals if Gordo wasn’t on the team. However, we do have Gordo, he’s cheaper and we have some depth back in the AHL if/when Gordo gets hurt. A lot of the Steckel lobby is getting their panties in a wad because of the bashing in this thread. Yeah, he has his limitations but they’re not that severe for a guy expected to play 10-12 a night. They are somewhat more severe here because of Gordo being available.
The only thing I’d be sad about is that Steckel has some idiot savant ability to apparently shut down Crosby. He has some bizarre knack for being able to slow down/shut down Crosby. That is pretty much it, and I consider myself to be part of the Steckel lobby. Only reason I’m really butthurt is that I really don’t want Bieksa unless someone can figure out if he can play a reasonably full season back to back.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
I think the point JP is trying to make is that Steckel is attractive trade-bait.
And here’s the other point that I’m having trouble with — I think the GMs of the league know that Steckel is a 4C. Now if you were able to get 3C value for him in a trade, I’d be all for that. For example, I’d do Steckel for Bieksa in a second. I just don’t think Vancouver, or any other team, would give that kind of value for Dave Steckel.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The only way you trade a Bieksa type of talent for a Steckel type of talent is if the salary cap forces your hand. I know you know that, of course.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Right. My point is that I don’t think the Caps would get much for Steckel. If they were offered a solid #6 defenseman, you’d have to accept that deal in a heartbeat.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
And a solid 6D for Steckel right now would benefit the Caps. As long as he’s better than Erskine.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
A solid #6 D is inherently better than Erskine.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Aug 13, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn’t Vancouver just sign Manny Malhotra, also known as David Steckel with more skill?
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Wouldn’t make much sense to grab Steckel then. Malhotra is to the 4th line as Crosby is to the 1st. Pretty unparalleled.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
Well, if Malhotra is playing 3rd line minutes, Steckel still fits on the 4th line. If Malhotra is playing 4th line minutes, I don’t see what’s in it for VAN.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Just glancing at VAN’s roster, I imagine that Malhotra is 3rd line.
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by Chris Burton on Aug 13, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the point JP is trying to make is that Steckel is attractive trade-bait.
Actually, I’m not trying to make that point at all and I don’t think it’s true. The point I’m trying to make is that he’s an attractive trade candidate from the Caps’ perspective.
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The attraction is as much saving $300,000 in cap room, the difference between Steckel and Gordon, who are likely to compete for ice time much of this year, especially on those nights when D.J. King is in the lineup (and that doesn’t include the two additional years of Steckel’s deal).
If you've read this far...seek help.
$1.1m for a decent 4C is a massive deal.
Except that it’s not. Stephane Yelle, Glen Metropolit, Blair Betts. . . blah blah blah.
Anything above a million for a 4C who has no scoring upside and no speed and isn’t a good penalty killer and doesn’t fight is an overpayment.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
This is exactly what I’ve been trying to say. The whole post seems like a non sequitor to me because Belanger and Steckel shouldn’t be competing for ice time.
As long as you are penciling in Boyd Gordon as your fourth line center, you have to have another fourth line center because Boyd can’t be depended on to play a full season. If you move Steckel, who’s the fourth line center? I’m not saying Steckel is some great shakes, I’m saying I don’t see anyone else in the organization or on the free agent market who can fill his role and who is both better and cheaper.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Joudrey? Beagle? Pinizotto?
I don’t know enough about the AHL guys to give you an opinion on their potential as a replacement for Steckel, should B Gordon go down. But I’d be willing to part with Steckel to upgrade the D, and roll the dice with one of those guys, if it came down to it.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Not only do I think he’s capable, but I think he’s more than willing to play a lot harder than Stecks and lay it on the line for every game he’s in. Granted- I think most Hershey guys probably have that same mentality, but still.
You gotta run to a window and say: "Hey, these floors are dirty as hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore!"
I believe Beagle would play harder and the results would be worse.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough. I haven’t seen Beagle play enough to refute that. Out of of curiosity though, how do you mean?
You gotta run to a window and say: "Hey, these floors are dirty as hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore!"
Just that from what I’ve seen of his play in the NHL, there are some experience/hockey sense/positioning/make the right play issues with Beagle. Nothing terrible, but I think Steckel’s better.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 13, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Putting personal feeling towards any certain player aside, I think if the Caps can move anyone on the 4th line or Flash or Chimera as part of a deal to receive a steady defenseman in return, its a win.
The margin needed to get the Caps to 6 legitimate quality defenseman is so much greater than the loss of one lower tier forward, where we have far greater NHL caliber depth.
Aside from discussing him in a trade, I’m not sure I agree with the pendulum swinging so far against Steckel though. I didn’t buy-in the 3-C hype thrown around after his 2009 playoff success and I’m not really buying into this “not worth his 1.1 mil contract” argument after one less than stellar season either. I think he’s a really good fit for the Caps 4C.
i like your thinking on this JP. but im not sure the quality of kevin bieska, is he a good defenseman that the caps would benifit having on their team? can somebody please answer my questiion because i know who he is, but im not familiar with his style of play.
Meanwhile…… we need a legit second line center to keep sasha happy, and we also need it for our depth. and since marc savard is out there ive come to think that this might be a good deal tell me what you think. Fleishman, Orlov, 1st round pick, – for marc savard
if your peter chiarelli do you take that deal ?
I honestly don’t think Bieksa is a great fit. You see people talk about “freak” injuries and you read about how Bieksa was injured and it makes you think he isn’t smart enough to know how to defend himself. Kind of like how Campbell was hurt by Ovie — Campbell didn’t think to defend himself and he paid the price.
We already have enough boneheaded play from Poti — why make things worse by piling on another guy with those issues?
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
How does one defend themselves from getting cut by skates, other than by wearing Kevlar socks (like Bieksa does now)?
By being more mindful of what is happening? I kind of see the guy as Poti-meets-Shamone and I want nothing of that, even if he is a credible top/second line guy. I’ve never been particularly impressed by him.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
Here‘s a video of one of the two cuts (the only one I could find). That’s really not an issue of mindfulness.
Doesn’t really look like a freak accident. You make your own luck, in my opinion.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
How so? It’s the exact same kind of play you see dozens of times every night in the NHL.
“You make your own luck” only goes so far, especially when the consequences are directly tied to someone else’s actions.
by David Getz on Aug 13, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
So why is Bieksa the guy that walks away with an injury on that play? Not once, but twice.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
Because he was unlucky.
But, honestly, if I’m following your logic, it doesn’t make sense. I’m reading it as “well, Bieksa was cut by skates twice, so he must be doing something to put himself in that position”, which is equation correlation with causation. That’s inherently flawed logic because it doesn’t have any sort of cause and effect to it.
It’s like comparing Lindros to another play who has had multiple concussions. With Lindros you can say “a lot of that is because he put himself in vulnerable positions.” With another guy it might just be that he had back luck and found himself on the ice against dirty player who woke up on the wrong side of the bed. In one case you can point to cause and effect that’s within the player’s control; in the other case you can’t.
The same thing applies for Bieksa. If you could point to something on the plays where he was hurt and say “man, he really put himself in a dangerous position there”, that’d be one thing. But I’m not seeing that.
by David Getz on Aug 13, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i like your thinking on this JP. but im not sure the quality of kevin bieska, is he a good defenseman that the caps would benifit having on their team? can somebody please answer my questiion because i know who he is, but im not familiar with his style of play.
Bieksa – for all the flak he’s taken for making mistakes – is a hell of a lot better than John Erskine and Tyler Sloan, so he’d be a big upgrade on the Caps blue line.
And that is the comparison to make — the player whose time Bieksa would assume. A lineup of:
Green-Schultz
Poti-Carlson
Alzner-Bieksa
…looks better than having Sloan or Erskine in that third pair slot.
If you've read this far...seek help.
I don’t think he’s all that great a fit simply because he doesn’t bring anywhere near the experience I am looking for from our additional defenseman.
As Peerless pointed out in this article from yesterday, the caps have a major dearth of guys with 500+ games of experience (or even 400+ for that matter) relative to the past 10 stanley cup champs. Bieksa only brings 281 games of experience, which is actually fewer than Green and only a handful more than Schultz. Not exactly the “veteran” presence I think we should be pursuing this offseason.
Having said that, he is an upgrade over erskine (albeit a less experienced one), so he would presumably make us better. I’m just not sure he gets us closer to the Cup.
This is my first post after many months lurking here.
Any Updates?? Rumors?? … this is killing me
by BetterOffWith28 on Aug 13, 2010 12:40 PM EDT reply actions
Welcome.
Make the full transition – get an Avatar.
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Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
At this blog, you gotta make an avatar first. Then when you get the avatar, you get the rumors. Then when you get the rumors, you get the updates.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
Great minds?
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
Welcome… but don’t expect to find off-topic information in substantive posts.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
clearly DJ King was brought in with a steckel trade in mind. dont want to lose an enforcer without having a someone to replace him.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
If he wasn’t such a damn headcase Konopka is the sort of guy I’d love to have as an enforcer.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
You know, (and I’m sure I’ll get flamed for this) but I sort of have the same feelings about Downie. Additionally, Downie did have 46 points this past season.
Also- I’d love to see Asham as a Cap.
You gotta run to a window and say: "Hey, these floors are dirty as hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore!"
i put downey in the avery category. lots of talent which is masked by many moments of stupidity.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Aug 13, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure Avery has lots of talent.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
i think he’s a very talented player which is overshadowed by his shenanigans on and off the ice. i think if he could have kept his emotions in check, the rags may well have won that series two years ago.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Aug 13, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, but I also think that with a few minor adjustments, Downie turns into a legit hockey player. Although I read an article about him one time (don’t have the link now) but he is sort of an introvert. After reading it, it was pretty clear he has some issues that he’s dealing with. I think that hockey is sort of his outlet.
You gotta run to a window and say: "Hey, these floors are dirty as hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore!"
Downie isn’t an enforcer. I’d say agitator, like Ott and Avery.
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матовая Клими, Михал нуивирт ваш папа теперь
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by red army line on Aug 14, 2010 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah… agitator verging on goon. But not enforcer – Konopka is the enforcer on Tampa.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
I interpret it as
agitator—lots of PIMs, not many fights but will fight if challenged, decent offensive skill
enforcer—one dimensional game, fights if necessary, can do something pretty well or does lots of things well enough not to embarrass himself
goon—out there to play 2 mins and fight. Can’t do anything else.
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by red army line on Aug 14, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
It would be funny if after all of the Fleishman speculation, and now the excellent case JP makes for it to be Steckel, it actually ended up being a blockbuster involving Semin.
-These go to eleven.
Yup…
“Of course if Mirtle is right [about Belanger being signed by the Caps] this means the major trade being done is Alexander Semin being dealt.”
If you've read this far...seek help.
Gawd I hope not!
What doesnt kill you makes you stronger.
by BetterOffWith28 on Aug 13, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d be ok with it if it brought back a great center.
Why wouldn't you play Perreault? He's a really talented young player.
… And center who exactly? I much rather have an average center and a great winger than viceversa.
What doesnt kill you makes you stronger.
by BetterOffWith28 on Aug 13, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know. There is a certain three centers up in Pittsburgh who do alright without great wingers. I’d much rather have another elite/great center than Alex Semin.
Insert something witty here.
by Knubles and Bits on Aug 13, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
… and center who exactly? I much rather have an average center and a great winger than viceversa.
What doesnt kill you makes you stronger.
by BetterOffWith28 on Aug 13, 2010 2:13 PM EDT reply actions
I much rather have an average center and a great winger than viceversa.
Please tell me you’re joking.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Well, I don’t claim to be a hockey know it all, but isn’t it just common sense? Why would you have a great playmaker if there’s no one to finish the play?
Althought , point taken reesem37
What doesnt kill you makes you stronger.
by BetterOffWith28 on Aug 13, 2010 2:19 PM EDT reply actions
Well, I don’t claim to be a hockey know it all, but isn’t it just common sense?
I am a hockey know-it-all. It is common sense – in the exact opposite way you see it. Centers are much more valuable than wings. They play all 200 feet of the rink. They control the transition game. They take faceoffs.
Beyond all that, if you look at the history of the NHL, teams with great centers (Forsberg/Sakic, Modano/Nieuwendyk, Yzerman/Fedorov, Gretzky/Messier, Crosby/Malkin, Toews/Sharp, Marleau/Thornton/Pavelski) tend to be successful and win cups, while teams with great wings tend not to (post-Mario Pens, any team with Pavel Bure or Gaborik, post-Drury/Briere Sabres, Iginla’s Flames. . . etc.).
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Aug 13, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Win cups and Marleau/Thornton/Pavelski should not be in the same sentence. Ever.
Insert something witty here.
by Knubles and Bits on Aug 13, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
You missed the “tend to be successful” part.
The fact that SJS hasn’t won a Cup does not detract from the fact that they’ve enjoyed around a decade worth of success largely built around having strong centers.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I didn’t miss that part. If I want to nitpick, you said be successful and win cups, which would mean both. But I’m not nitpicking and it was just a joke.
Insert something witty here.
by Knubles and Bits on Aug 13, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s all good. I just think people ragging on SJS gets a bit overdone. Yeah, they haven’t won a cup, but I personally think that’s more a function of having a mediocre goaltender and pretending he’s good. Regardless, their record of success is pretty impressive.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Agreed on the goaltender bit.
Insert something witty here.
by Knubles and Bits on Aug 13, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
But I think if anyone can rag on San Jose it’s us. If we don’t solve some of our problems we are going to become San Jose east. But that is getting way off topic.
Insert something witty here.
by Knubles and Bits on Aug 13, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
thx – I see
What doesnt kill you makes you stronger.
by BetterOffWith28 on Aug 13, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Just in case it wasn't clear...
I am a hockey know-it-all.
This was meant to be self-deprecating.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Surrre it was
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
I know myself well enough to know that I can be a know-it-all. It doesn’t mean I know everything, but sometimes I sure think I do. It’s not my favorite personality trait, but at least I’m honest about it. Also, at the end of the day, I’d much rather be a know-it-all than a dumbass.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
If the Caps trade Semin for a 2C, they still have Flash, Fehr, and Laich to play wing on the 2nd – all 3 can finish. Whether it’s an upgrade depends on the center.
Never underrate the power of the hissy-cow.
I think Flash has earned a chance at 2nd line wing minutes. He’s not particularly terrible there and he does present some offensive ability. I’d much rather throw Semin and Steckel at someone else and bring home a reliable 2C. We have wings behind Semin at least.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
Flash has been getting the spot at 2W regardless of whether or not he’s earned it.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Aug 13, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Flash has earned a chance at 2nd line wing minutes.
I think he’s earned himself a hard kick in the shins and a bus ticket to Poughkeepsie.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Flash could be a top 6 on a different team. But not here.
Bruce Boudreau when asked about Brooks Laich's return to the lineup, he said: "He just adds another dimension to our team. If it was puzzle, he just fits that thing. He completes us."
Brooks Laich completing everything from teams to tires and everything in between.
my reply fail would get better I promise (g)
What doesnt kill you makes you stronger.
by BetterOffWith28 on Aug 13, 2010 2:20 PM EDT reply actions
Without having read through the comments (I’d be surprised if I’m not doubling what has been said before), I’d say trading some of our lower-tier players should be at the top of the priority list. There are several players who undoubtedly benefit drastically in terms of points and +/- because they play with the rest of the talented Capitals. If we can shop players who are getting much better totals than they would get otherwise, it should wind up being something of a positive for us. In theory.
Brooks Laich and Tomas Fleischmann spring immediately to mind, along with Steckel.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Flash and Sarge jump to my mind. Laich would get great value though.
Bruce Boudreau when asked about Brooks Laich's return to the lineup, he said: "He just adds another dimension to our team. If it was puzzle, he just fits that thing. He completes us."
Brooks Laich completing everything from teams to tires and everything in between.
We really, really don’t have the blueline depth to trade Sarge, especially not locked up at that deal.
Believe me, I don’t think he’s ever going to hit +50 again; that was a fluke. But he is a solid defender now and a top-4 player, of which we have exactly three, pending the development of Carlzner.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 13, 2010 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The trade is being rumored, or atleast was at one point, to bring in another defenseman. Flash and Sarge could gather a pretty reputable “stay at home” top 2 defenseman.
Though I was more referencing that Sarge seemed to do much better statistically than he ever would playing for another team.
Bruce Boudreau when asked about Brooks Laich's return to the lineup, he said: "He just adds another dimension to our team. If it was puzzle, he just fits that thing. He completes us."
Brooks Laich completing everything from teams to tires and everything in between.
Good question, I’m also wondering about that. I guess it’ll depend on how much leverage GMGM lost by the leaked news.
What doesnt kill you makes you stronger.
by BetterOffWith28 on Aug 13, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Possible, but unlikely. It’s not out of the question the other GM tells McPhee, “Hey, I know you don’t really want [Fleischmann, Steckel, whoever], because you’re trying to replace him. Our offer has changed”, and it’s possible that nixes the deal.
I would doubt it, though, since that would be monumentally stupid on the part of the opposing general manager.
I dunno about that. Burke I guess will trade Kaberle over the weekend, so McPhee could get it done too.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
матовая Клими, Михал нуивирт ваш папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
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by red army line on Aug 14, 2010 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Florida
|
53 | 25 | 17 | 11 | 61 |
|
Washington
|
54 | 28 | 21 | 5 | 61 |
|
Winnipeg
|
56 | 26 | 24 | 6 | 58 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
53 | 23 | 24 | 6 | 52 |
|
Carolina
|
55 | 20 | 25 | 10 | 50 |
(updated 2.10.2012 at 9:27 AM EST)
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