Fleischmann, Schultz, Fehr File for Arbitration
by J.P. on Jul 5, 2010 3:55 PM EDT
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PrintPer James Mirtle, Tomas Fleischmann has filed for arbitration, news that comes on the heels of finding out that Jeff Schultz has done so as well, per TSN.
To refresh your memory, here's our recap of Flash's 2009-10 season, and here's Schultz's. The question now... what's each worth?
Update: Eric Fehr (Rink Wrap here), too, per Tarik El-Bashir. More on the trio of filings here.
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 5, 2010 3:57 PM EDT reply actions
Schultz filed, too, I believe.
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He did.
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 5, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Aww, I wanted to lock Schultz up with a cheap long term contract.
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Yup – post updated accordingly.
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Back to 2009-10 specifics, the 25-year-old Czech had the worst 5-on-5 Corsi rating and goals-against-on-ice-per-sixty (GAON/60) of any forward that spent the entire season on the team and the worst 5-on-5 penalty plus-minus (penalties drawn minus penalties taken) of any skater who played at least half of the team’s games other than John Erskine. Fleischmann was also arguably the team’s worst penalty-killing forward, considering his GAON/60 at 4-on-5 and the quality of competition and teammates contributing to that number. Lastly, Flash only won 43.1% of his face-offs, rendering him largely unplayable at center.
He can’t be worth too much with those D stats. Trade Bait Plz?
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Please someone offer him more. Do not want.
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by Ovechwin on Jul 5, 2010 4:02 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Recap as I recall: He wanted a long term deal with the Caps that they didn’t provide. If they agree to the arbitration amt they are not allowed to trade him all season if I remember reading correctly. If they don’t agree, then he Can walk and they have Backstrom at 1C and a bunch of grade-schoolers for 2 and 3c.
ShaMo then is the poster child the org is holding up then for what happens to those that go for fat arbitration deals.
by Icebat on Jul 5, 2010 4:09 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Wait, didn’t jurcina go to arb last year? We traded him…
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Jul 5, 2010 6:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Thought so. Maybe the no trade thing only applies if the tram takes the player to arb. That would seem to make more sense.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
Maybe it means you can’t trade them for a certain period of time? Certainly you can’t accept the award and then turn around and trade him.
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Seems a bit heavily weighted to the player if teams were locked out of moving guys who file. The player initiates the action. They should bear some risk. The outcome for the player nearly all positive. Potentially higher salary with built in no trade clause or UFA status. The downside is you could get your QO salary (I’m assuming the arb award can’t be lower than the QO). Seems unfair to the team.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
Without knowing what they’re looking for yet, I’d guess $2.75-3.25m for the pair.
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For the pair combined? Seems low, if thats what you meant.
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I’d guess that Schultz isn’t going to go from a little more than $700k to $1.9 or something, guessing around $1.5ish for him with the reminder to Flash, distasteful as the latter might be.
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ShaMo went from $900k to $1.9 on a much worse platform year than Sarge just had.
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Probably a decent guess on the pair. Personnaly I’d go no more than $1.5M for 55 and no more than $1.25M for 14.
I’ll take the over on each.
Shaone Morrisonn went from $900,000 to $1,975,000 when he hit his arb homerun after being paired with Mike Green for a season. Schultz had a better season than Mo did in his platform year – he’ll get paid more.
Put another way, Milan Jurcina got $1.375m at arb last summer after being at most a 3rd-pairing blueliner. There’s no way Schultz doesn’t get way more than $1.5m.
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Those are my personal #‘s on what I’d pay them but you are likely right on both for their salary awards by the judge. I think Flash is the one who is in more danger of having the Caps walk away if they don’t like the number, plenty of other options in the organization at wing. As for Sarge, I’d imagine anything over $2M could put him in danger of having the Caps walk away from him.
Disagree that they’d walk on a $2m award to Schultz.
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Especially considering the lack of good defensemen remaining after this past week and the market prices. Schultz will be a steal no matter what happens, probably.
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I’d easily go to $3m. Wouldn’t like it, but would do it.
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Well they took $1.9M on 26 and 55 is way better IMO, so they might just do that if they had to. As for 14, I just don’t see him as being as secure. What do you think on 14?
I’m not a big Flash guy, as you know, but I don’t think you can just let assets walk for nothing. I’d start thinking about letting him walk if it was north of $2m.
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A good point. Given these awards are just 1 year ones, it is easier to swallow a higher number rather than let the player walk for nothing, unless you are sure you have a cheaper option in the system or externally (trade of FA). Gonna be interesting to see how these two play out. Tough situation for GMGM and the Caps.
Unless he gets hurt, flash has got to have some trade value during the season. Guy was on a 30 goal pace last year and maybe some gm out there didn’t TiVo game seven. Just hope he comes to camp in good shape and gets off to a good start.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
he’ll absolutely come back to camp in better shape. Remember, he had a blod clot for most of the offseason, preventing him from doing any sort of conditioning.
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he could condition once the clot was dissolved. The worry was him skating with others while on blood thinners. The risk of bleeding out should he have been accidentally cut was high.
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I actually thought he came back in great shape because he couldn’t get on the ice, so he really hit the gym. His first month of play was his best. And then that muscle dissolved away and he became the Flash we’re used to.
If he could commit to a real weight regimen…
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jul 6, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m trying to look at capgeek for comparables. I’m a little scared that I’m coming up with $3m. Please tell me that just because I’m looking at someone with similar point totals that there’s something not there that makes Schulz worth less. Please? Will the fact that he doesn’t make monster hits cost him money, even though he doesn’t need them to play his game?
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Pretty sure you can’t compare 55 to guys with similar point totals. Who was coming up in your search?
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I know you can’t, but it’s the only thing I have to work with because I don’t know enough. I forget who I came up with first, but Colorado signed Kyle Quincy for $3 million. Age 24, 6g, 23a, +9, 76PIM. Shultz: Age 24, 3g, 20a, +50, 32PIM. So serious question — who’s worth more? The same? (For the record, Quincy’s 2008-09 had better stats than Schultz.)
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Despite the stats, to my eyes, Quincey is pretty clearly the superior player. He’s a better skater, has a better shot and has far more offensive upside. That being said, Schultz is more reliable defensively, but can get exposed by speedy/shifty forwards. Schultz’s points come almost by accident, whereas Quincey has a cannon of a shot and can legitimately log PP time.
My guess is that arb would put Sarge in the 2.25-2.65M range. I guess that he signs a 4-year deal for something on the lower end of that range. If his agent is smart, he’ll know that Sarge may not get so lucky with +/- next year, and that his ice time might drop with the addition of another competent set of young defensemen.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I see Flash going for 2.5-3, and if its on the high end of that spectrum I hope the Caps just walk away from it.
I don’t think they can walk away if they agree to arbitration
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They can if they feel the award is too high (I believe, someone back me up on this) and he becomes a FA and his contract has to be at least what arbitration awards him…
Deadline to file is in 13 minutes, so probably not – my guess is he and the team are close on something longer term and he didn’t see the point. Sounded like Flash’s camp wanted way more than the Caps were willing to give, hence the arbitration, and I have no clue what Schultz is asking for.
Yes, it’s off topic but on Kovalchuk, now there’s speculation that he may go back to the Devils. The headlines are having a field day with “deal with the Devils”. Makes me think of bargaining with the devil. (It would be even funnier if the Devils’ GM were named Applegate, except it’s Lamoriello. Gee, if Bill Gates and Steve Jobs ever joined forces, would the new entity be called “Applegate”?)
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Yes, yes it is off topic.
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by Bald Pollack on Jul 5, 2010 5:02 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
My predicted arb awards:
Schultz: $2.75MM
Flash: $2.5MM
Arb awards almost always are way higher than we would like.
If it gets that far – McPhee probably has something up his sleeve.
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Yeah, figured. I don’t mind Schultz – he deserves a good contract, though I wouldn’t mind seeing more physical play out of him. Fleischmann … I wouldn’t mind seeing him price himself off the Caps.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
I’d hate to see the Caps lose a 20-goal-scoring asset for nothing.
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Sure, but if it’s that or have Fleischmann tying up $3m or more in cap space that means the Caps can’t afford that last piece they need to push them over the hump…
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Agreed – at $3m you walk. But I’d still be pissed that Flash priced himself off the team and the team got nothing for him – not a pick last week, not a prospect earlier on, but nothing.
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This is true. That would suck. I just am not a fan of seeing Flash be untradeable for a year – I’d like to see him replaced with a harder-nosed guy who might chip in fewer goals but brings more edge, physical play, and maybe defensive acumen to the table. MInd you, that’s my dream, and I don’t have the perfect guy in mind.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Based on this, wouldn’t it be wise for GMGM to go ahead and offer him something in the $2-2.5 mil area, thus allowing him to be trade bait later in the year? If he has the start he had last year, teams may be more willing to pick him up come Dec – Jan.
"HISTORY DOESN’T MATTER!!! .... Who cares if it’s never been done? We aren’t those teams who failed before. We are in control of our own destiny, and we will make it happen our own way.." - A Gordon, June 2010
I think for Flash’s part term is an important consideration. He prob wants a Min of 3 yrs, and he prob wants that amt to reflect his reg season performance curve vs his post-season stats
That’s better for GMGM. He could give him a 3 yr deal at a lower rate then what he could win in arbitration, since arbitration awards are only good for one year (if I remember correctly).
And considering the crazy FA deals that were created this week, I don’t think 3 yr contracts would scare off any possible suitors.
"HISTORY DOESN’T MATTER!!! .... Who cares if it’s never been done? We aren’t those teams who failed before. We are in control of our own destiny, and we will make it happen our own way.." - A Gordon, June 2010
I'm with JP on this one
I probably hate Flash’s ginger balls as much as anyone else on here, but if the Caps are forced to walk by a $3m+ arbitration award, I’ll be mighty pissed.
Flash might be softer than a satin pillow, but there are plenty of GMs out there who will see “20-goal scorer with upside.” They don’t know (or will ignore) that he disappears more than David Copperfield. That he’s softer than chinchilla fur.
Flash is the perfect “sell high” asset, and he ought to have been traded.That’s my biggest frustration with the offseason thus far – not the lack of movement on the FA front.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Jul 5, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would think that it’s a lot harder to trade an RFA who hasn’t been signed – the team not only has to give up assets to get the guy but they also have to find a way to sign him. My guess is is they do trade him, it’ll be after they either sign him to some sort of deal or get the arbitration ruling.
Just a guess, though, I have no clue.
Perhaps that’s the case – all the more reason to get him signed and not let it drag on through arbitration.
Now, unfortunately, it’s possible that he’ll get a one-year deal too rich for most teams’ blood. 90% of Flash’s utility derived from his high production-to-cost ratio. Once that’s gone (if, say, the arbitrator awards him $2.75m), then he’s no longer trade bait unless he starts the season like a house on fire.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
@TarikElBashir:
Tomas Fleischmann, Eric Fehr and Jeff Schultz have filed for salary arbitration, I’m told.
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And McPhee’s wisdom in not tying up a ton of cap space in a high-priced free agent becomes clear.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
by gotsparkly on Jul 5, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have to think that the club saw this coming.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
I think most of us saw this coming. Both Flash, Fehr, and Schultz played above their QO in my opinion.
Flash certainly doesn’t deserve a huge paycheck coming off of his disappearing act in the 2nd half of last year; but, i kind of want to see the guy play a full year after being able to actually condition in the off-season. Not being able to improve your muscle endurance for the offseason often leads to a that exact sort of point drop
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i kind of want to see the guy play a full year
Then I think you’re about the only one left around these parts.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Jul 5, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I want to see him play for a full year, on a different team.
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by Bman21212 on Jul 5, 2010 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
The same conference could work ok. Flash for Carter seems like a decent trade. Get it done GMGM!
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While you’re at it, solve the middle east clusterfuck, turn water into wine and make the US national debt disappear.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
GMGM can only make hockey related miracles.
One Bye-Bye Bettman coming up!
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Hearings start in late July. Teams and players can still negotiate deals between now and then. At hearings, both sides present their case and requested salary, then the arbitrator decides what’s fair. The player’s then bound to it (since this is player-elected arb), but the team can walk away from a ruling it doesn’t want to sign the player to.
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by J.P. on Jul 5, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Arbitration primer
Can the link to the primer posted in comments the other day be re-posted up in the story please?
I was wondering what happens with the arbitrated amount/player if the team walks. Is it like waivers where all teams then get to raise their hand to pay the amount, and if nobody does then then player is a FA, or is the player immediately free to work out any deal with any team the moment his team walks away?
TEB, playing the role of EF16's agent:
Fehr, on the other hand, parlayed the 22nd most ice time on the Caps (12:07 per game) into the ninth most points (21 goals, 18 assists) on the NHL’s top offense.
And that’s with limited PP time, too. Fehr is primed to be Knuble’s replacement in 2 years. Please sign, GMGM.
"HISTORY DOESN’T MATTER!!! .... Who cares if it’s never been done? We aren’t those teams who failed before. We are in control of our own destiny, and we will make it happen our own way.." - A Gordon, June 2010
Is he really Knuble’s replacement? IMO, if Laich can play RW, he’d be a much better fit.
Waiting 'til next year.
Laich is UFA at the end of this upcoming season and will be due for a big raise. A multi-year Fehr extension could be insurance if Brooks moves on.
That leaves Boyd Gordon, Jay Beagle, Chris Bourque, Andrew Gordon, Patrick McNeill, Zach Miskovic ten more days to accept their QOs. I wonder how this will play out.
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Non-Caps who filed that bear watching:
Antti Niemi (CHI)
Andrew Ladd (ATL)
Giarardi (NYR)
Wheeler (BOS)
And then there’s Halak, who according to a reporter at the St. Louis Post Dispatch: “Jaro Halak did not file for arbitration today. Appears to be a good-faith move by Halak camp, which doesn’t want deadlines on negotiations.”
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Wheeler especially for Fehr. The NHLPA gets to schedule the hearings and the two of them are of a similiar age, similiar size and about the same stats over the past two seasons. Wheeler’s bonus laden entry level cap number was $2.8 million last year, and not many go to arbitration for salary cut.
It’ll be interesting to see if the PA schedules Fehr after Wheeler and maybe tries to ride the momentum to perhaps a more favorable result.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
What exactly do you mean by “more favorable result”? As in a more reasonable paycheck, presented by the arb, for both teams, or a bigger paycheck for the player?
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
The PA puts their best cases first to help the players. If Wheeler goes first, gets a favorable deal, they can use that as a comparable for Fehr to boost his salary that he may not have got. Assuming it’s argued successfully, of course.
Or, who knows, maybe they put Fehr first because he had a 20+ goal season and hope that he can boost Wheeler.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Ahh ok, i see.
Considering the cap space left in boston for a guy like Wheeler, and the fact that I think the Caps will sign Fehr, even if his contract is a bit much, I’m guessing the 2nd situation would occur.
I guess using the arbitration numbers for salary is the most accurate way to compare salaries. . .i would hate to compare numbers with some of the ridiculous contracts GMs have been throwin out
It's The Wait for Red October. Except rather than Sean Connery, Alex Baldwin, and Sam Neill, it's George McPhee, Bruce Boudreau, and Alex Ovechkin.
Not Tom Clancy, but Gary Bettman. Not the Soviet Kremlin, but. . .well. . . .yeah, the Soviet Kremlin
I’ll ask the stupid question — do we know if Wheeler made all his bonuses?
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Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
Not that stupid a question at all. I highly doubt he did — I heard that a lot its pretty standard that any of the 25 goal, 35 assist, 60 point marks trigger bonuses for entry level, even for the guys like Kane/Ovechkin/Crosby who would have hit those things easily. Wheeler didn’t scratch those.
There’s another one for games played, but I don’t know what the threshold is. I’d still bet Wheeler hit that one though.
And his base salary was $835,000, a little more than Fehr’s.
"Game's the same. Just got more fierce."
Hadn’t thought of Wheeler as a comp for Fehr. It’s an interesting comparison, but one that I think favors Fehr overmuch. Wheeler’s 08-09 saw him put up much better stats in comparable ice time to what Fehr got this year (13:41 vs. 12:07). Before you point out that the difference is over a minute, I’ll point out that Wheeler gets over a minute of shorthanded ice time/game – something that Fehr will likely never get given his lack of footspeed. The numbers look even worse for Fehr when you note that in 08-09 versus Fehr’s 09-10, Wheeler got less powerplay time on ice.
I think if Fehr actually does go to arbitration, his lack of footspeed/conditioning and his subsequent inability to kill penalties would loom large. If the agent brought up the Wheeler comp, I’d retort that Wheeler also had a one-year goal bump in 08-09 from an inflated shooting percentage, then came back to earth the following year. Guess who also just did that – Fehr (and Flash). Moreover, Fehr’s jump from 9 to 14% is a greater relative difference than Wheeler’s drop from 14 to 11%. Wheeler isn’t the greatest defensive forward, but he can at least take the odd turn killing penalties and has scored 3 shorties each of the last two years.
(If you’re wondering why I’m using Wheeler’s 08-09 as the comp year, that’s because it’s statistically superior, and it’s the year that I’d emphasize more if I were his agent, whereas Fehr’s agent is likely to emphasize 09-10.)
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
No Surprise Here...
These three players are going to arbitration. It means that they want to be in Washington next season. They are all due for raises, of course, but for how much. I suspect that Schultz will come in at about $2M, Fehr about the same, and Flash will ask for $2.75M and come in at about $1.8M.
The negotiations will continue, of course, and I suspect that a few of these players (if not all) will be signed before the hearings.
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--- D'ohboy
Question
Will Gabby be representing Flash at his arb hearing?
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
I’m hearing he might get a percentage of the award. ;-)
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It will be gone come playoff time
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory
by Rather Bengt on Jul 6, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Pricey is what its worth. Flash 3.75, Fehr 3, Shultz 4.
Would not be surprised if arbitration comes close to that.
GMGM shouldn’t low ball these guys with surely lesser FA’s available now.
Bruce Boudreau when asked about Brooks Laich's return to the lineup, he said: "He just adds another dimension to our team. If it was puzzle, he just fits that thing. He completes us."
Brooks Laich completing everything from teams to tires and everything in between.
Well I would be shocked if arbitration comes close to that. Who are comparable players to Flash, Fehr, and Schultz that are pulling 4 million?
And
Brooks Laich completing everything from teams to tires and everything in between.
redundant sig is redundant.
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The team seems to think Flash is the answer at 2C, so I don’t see any way they let him walk for less than $3m. The current center situation has the team over a barrel. I think he probably won’t get more than $2.5, but I seriously doubt the Caps even consider walking away.
The team seems to think Flash is the answer at 2C
Is this like Jeopardy! where the answer is actually a question?
In that case, I’ll say “What is a crappy stop-gap solution en route to a disappointing season Alex?”
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Jul 6, 2010 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’m not disagreeing, but that’s my read on the situation. I don’t think Flash’s charmed existence on this team is coming to an end anytime soon – in fact, I think the organization envisions him playing an even bigger role. Perhaps I’m mistaking inaction for intent here.
I didn’t parse GMGM’s words that way. What I heard was that he listed three possible players for that position that were already likely to be on the roster. I didn’t hear commitment either to Flash. Rather, that he wanted to try out Flash, MP, and Mackan first, give them a real chance to claim that position. t If anything he seems more excited by Mackan’s upswing, tho’ in his even-tempered way of his.
"I’m very happy to hear the news," Ovechkin said when he heard about Backstrom's longterm contract--"because he’s one of the top centers in the world, one of my best friends and we want to play together for a long time. He’s a guy who wants to stay in one place and be comfortable and win, just like me. We talk all the time about playing together, and we talked after the playoffs about how we can win in Washington."
by capsyoungguns on Jul 6, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
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