The Great Debate

Crosby also had a really high shooting % this year, right? AO had a more normal sh%.

06-07? Isn’t the best season since the lockout (I’d say AO’s 65 goals were of course) but pretty impressive.

For me the captaincy or leadership debate between the two is a draw.

Crosby has held the position for several years, whereas Ovi just since Jan. 5th, only half of the season. So is it fair to judge them only by that standard—winning the Cup—since Ovi’s had only one playoff run wearing the C, whereas Crosby has had three or four attempts.

Moreover, shouldn’t a great captain also be defined more generally by the intangibles of great leadership.

Should Crosby get the edge here because he led the team to the Holy Grail? Is that the only way one defines leadership? By that same token shouldn’t we acknowledge that Ovi once he got the C led the team on a record breaking 14 game streak and a historic 121 points, regardless of their playoff failure.

A good captain has to do with more than winning. It’s about the teammates, the chemistry, the relationships, and the attitude. Both players are good leaders that way. They think of the team first and look out for the team. They are both super (uber even) competitive and don’t give up, both on and off the ice. They both push the whole team. They are the engines that drive their respective teams.

But they can’t do the winning by themselves. Questions such is: the team complete—does it have the right group of players to win? Those issues are outside of a captain’s domaine.

But I do think that both players are the absolute heart and soul of their respective teams, and their players follow their lead willingly. In both cases the teams have chemistry and great locker room vibes—at least as far as we fans can tell and certainly as has been reported by the media.

Both players have done questionable on the edge things. Getting suspended really doesn’t come into it for me. Nor does Crosby’s slashes and tantrums.

Both play on the edge in their respective style—neither are malicious or are filled with intent to hurt. They are both just completely and totally into the game and the littlest action will get magnified. When Crosby came under criticism for his unsportsmanlike behavior in one of the games against the Habs his coach defended him saying that we don’t understand the degree to which he is living under the spotlight, his every action scrutinized. I thought to myself—“no kidding. The same goes for Ovi.”

I cut them both slack for seeking and finding that edge on the ice.

Suspended too often? Questionable hits? What do you think of Scott Stevens, Chris Pronger, and Claude Lemieux? Mark Messier?

I want to make sure I understand that stat correctly, so I can make some sense of this. You take the goals/60 mins scored when the player is off the ice, subtract the goals/60 mins scored when they are on the ice, and that number is what you are reporting there? And I assume (#) means it is negative. Just not a stat I have seen very much before.

That was the point of it, yes. But he wasn’t the difference in the series against the Caps – Ovie played just as well, and their contributions pretty much cancelled each other out. Malkin was the bigger difference maker – in terms of having the most impact after Crosby and Ovechkin.

He was the leader in getting the Pens to the Cup, but not in winning it – that was Malkin.

In the Finals, which is what I was referring to (as I said earlier) he had 1 goal and 2 assists. How is that absurd?

Read the above 15 or so posts, because you are probably misunderstanding that.

I don’t know, I’ve always felt like Ovi got a bad rep defensively without any real evidence (might have been the minus 19 he put up his sophomore season just stuck with him). I always prefer to look at things statistically when I can, and there just isn’t a shred of evidence that Crosby is any better at preventing goals against than Ovechkin is. All of the arguments are usually subjective, and often pretty vague. Even one of the most often used reasons, that Ovi hangs out at the opponents blue line instead of helping the in the D zone, doesn’t reflect that when he’s on that blue line, he holds 2 of the opponents there with him, so they can’t contribute to the attack.

Also, I’d say the most likely reason Ovi gets no PK minutes is that the value he adds even strength or on the PP is so much higher than the PK. It isn’t like Crosby leads the Pens in PK minutes either. Last year he played .88 minutes per 60 at 4-on-5, which as a comparison, is less than Semin.

Crosby gets PK less-than-a-minute because he’s unquestionably the best face-off guy for the Pens. Everyone else is average to far worse; those numbers are commensurate with a guy that comes out when they need an faceoff win, does his thing to get the puck clear, then gets off the ice.

The numbers while he’s out there are outstanding, but Staal, then one of their grinders, are the PK Cs of note.

Well, I’d expect Sid’s numbers to drop. After all, as you go deeper the teams get better, and while he could have done better against the Red Wings each year, even at his best he’s not going to be able to do much considering almost every shift Zetterberg and Lidstrom/Rafalski were out there against him.

Crosby also had crap for wingers. If he didn’t go out there and try and score, no one was going to score.

god, that eff’ing Montreal goal…..still bitter about it.

Crosby will be lucky to break 40 again.

Disagree strongly. While he did get a bit lucky with his shooting percentage this season (17.1%), his career average before this season was over 14%. He made a conscious decision to shoot the puck more and from in tighter, in the goal-scoring areas. I bet his S% stays pretty high next season (~15%), which would yield ~45 goals on the same number of shots.

Unless he gets an elite winger that he decides to feed instead of scoring himself, I think Sid is a permanent resident in the 40+ club, barring injuries. The improvements he made this season weren’t of the fluky, unsustainable variety, even if he did get somewhat lucky on his shooting percentage.

If Ovie continues to get 5.11 shots a game next season, plays 80 games and shoots his career average, he’ll end up with ~51 goals again. If he ups it to 6 shots a game (480), he’ll get 60 if he shoots his career average.

Or Fedor. Though he lost.

/runs off and cries