Do the Caps need an enforcer?
by capsfan2011 on Jun 19, 2010 1:11 AM EDT
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PrintAfter feeling nostalgic about the past (and ultimately disappointing) season, I started browsing the Capitals league-low 20 Regular Season fights. After watching all 20 of them (which doesn't take that long at hockeyfights.com), I came to the conclusion that most commentators and fans have reached - fighting is not the Caps' forte. With the voters at "hockeyfights" attributing a meager 5 victories out of the Caps' 20 fights, I started thinking, "Do the Caps desperately need an enforcer?" and "How could GM George McPhee have been so blind to this oblivious fact?"
After all, Caps fans (including myself) have for the past season crowned Matt Bradley as the team's lovable tough-guy. However, Bradley's career-high 10 goals of this season seem too high for him to be a mindless goon like Tampa Bay's Zenon Konopka (265 PIM, 2 G) or Philly's zombie Ian Laperriere (162 PIM, 3 G) - to name the league's two leaders in fighting. With even a brief look at the two's respective pages, you can see that these guys are paid for one thing and one thing only. Even looking at Bradley's fights, you can tell that he's not up to par with the other goons, that he actually has the ability to score goals. On top of that, Bradley seems to have the unfortunate habit of bleeding - as seen in this fight against New York's Aaron Voros.
Although many fans may call Bradley out for bleeding or being sucker punched, it's important to remember his devotion to not only the club, but the Caps' franchise player and captain, Alex Ovechkin (seen in his desperate defense of the captain in Ovechkin's almost-fight with the talentless Steve Downie.)
Others may point to Capitals newbie Jason Chimera as a possible hope in filling the role of enforcer. While Chimera did tie for 3rd place in leading Caps in fights (he had 3, so did former captain Chris Clark), he also doesn't seem right to play the role as tough-guy - with his 15 Goals and 19 Assists.
To answer the question first posed, I believe the Capitals are walking on thin ice this upcoming season if George McPhee doesn't sign a guy who knows how to drop the gloves. This is not simply because I deeply love watching fighting in hockey games, but because I also deeply love watching Alex Ovechkin smoking a defender and scoring the game-winning goal. Ovechkin simply won't be able to do this if he has a concussion or another injury caused by a cheap shot. To use a completely ironic metaphor, the US would sometimes force the Soviet Union to back down by using deterrence. If the Capitals have an enforcer, he must and hopefully will deter the opposition from taking cheap shots at Ovi. And for those that argue that Ovi is a big boy and can defend himself - while that may be true, I don't want to see the day when he won't be able to. It is because of this that the Capitals must employ a bodyguard for Alex the Great... to keep him Great.
If this FanPost is written by someone other than one of the blog's editors, the opinions expressed in it do not necessarily reflect those of this blog or SB Nation.
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No.
"Stop hating and just accept the new Red Jesus into our life." --F&B on 14
by bigeugene on Jun 19, 2010 1:26 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Agreed. This has been mulled over a 100 times already at the rink. Brashear didn’t deter much at all. And for Bradley’s record in fights, the team wakes up when he does it.
Also, Kenopka is a very good face-off man, if I remember correctly, he led TB, and I think he kills penalties as well. Laperriere doesn’t have any offense but he is a good PKer and a good 3rd liner. And for Steven Downie’s lack of talent he put up 22-24-46 this season.
The Caps absolutely do not need an enforcer. They do need a handful of guys who are willing to drop the gloves when necessary, which they have.
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.
Adding an enforcer to this squad now would be like using leeches to solve cancer.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
by Whiter Mage on Jun 19, 2010 2:16 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
my answer is no because i think we have a whole TEAM of enforcers. You don’t really need one guy.
Between Chimera, Bradley, Erskine, ShaMo, and even Ovechkin we have plenty of people that are willing to drop the gloves when the time calls for it.
We don’t need someone to drop the gloves when it ISN’T called for.
No.
We were fine in the off-season, besides a few events. Other than that an enforcer just takes up roster space come Playoffs.
"If I was being paid thirty-thousand dollars a year, the very least I could do was hit .400." - Ted Williams
*regular season
"If I was being paid thirty-thousand dollars a year, the very least I could do was hit .400." - Ted Williams
But who cares about the regular season anyhow? As long as you make the Top 8 in the conference.
Rocking the Red since 1975
Well, what I'm saying is....
We did fine in the regular season besides a couple of things (Carcillo and Koci come to mind). So there’s no reason to have an enforcer. Then in the Playoffs there’s rarely fighting or cheap shots so an enforcer would just waste a roster spot.
So, no, we do not need an enforcer…
"If I was being paid thirty-thousand dollars a year, the very least I could do was hit .400." - Ted Williams
I agree with you on not needing an enforcer.
(Of course, I was being snarky on the “who cares about the regular season” comment.)
Seriously, we were fine in the regular season sans enforcer. And we need one even less in the playoffs.
Rocking the Red since 1975
Exactly
The only event that irritated me was Koci hitting Green and I think Chimera was the only one that attempted to do anything.
But that was THE only time I thought, “Wished we had an enforcer”
"If I was being paid thirty-thousand dollars a year, the very least I could do was hit .400." - Ted Williams
An enforcer is the last thing the Caps need to worry about. If someone wants to take a cheap shot at Ovechkin, Backstrom, etc, no enforcer is going to prevent that. Did they Hawk’s enforcer deter Ovie from pushing Campbell against the boards or Cook from hitting Savard in the head, etc. I’m not saying that those hits were deliberate but the point is that players will get hurt during games no matter what. Let’s say Richards takes a cheap shot at Ovie that results in a concussion, afterwards what is the enforcer supposed to do, challenge Richards or the Flyer’s enforcer to a fight? What is that going to solve? Again, I don’t think having an enforcer on your team deters anyone from doing anything and you’re just wasting a roster spot . The Caps just played an entire season without an enforcer and what I noticed is that opposing teams either did not dress their enforcers when they played against the Caps or if they did, the enforcer didn’t fight anybody (there was that one incident where Koci hit Green from behind and fought with Erskine and the fight between Konopka and Steckel) but that’s about it.
Lobbies: Green, Carlson, Orlov
by CapsFan2020 on Jun 19, 2010 2:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn’t mind trying to make a move for a guy like Iginla that is skilled and can fight (not that the Flames would move their franchise player, just an example), but adding another Brashear or Laraque is pointless.
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by what Juneau about that? on Jun 19, 2010 3:12 PM EDT reply actions
I wouldn’t say they need an enforcer so much as they need a rugged top four defenseman capable of handing out a beat down as well as skating big minutes especially on the PK. I know I’m a big time broken record, but a guy of those dimensions would be ideal for the capitals
Name a top four defender who can handle dishing out a beat down as well as skating big minutes on the PK effectively? They don’t really exist anymore. The landscape has changed, and the few guys who can do what you’re describing are either locked down to long term deals or outside of our price range.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
by Whiter Mage on Jun 19, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And further, it’s hard to skate big minutes if you’re sitting in the penalty box for a large chunk of the season.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Jun 19, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
There are lots of physical top-4 D, but even Chris Pronger I wouldn’t bet on “giving a beat down.”
There’s always Tom Poti.
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by red army line on Jun 20, 2010 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree – but that’s not what I asked.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
by Whiter Mage on Jun 20, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I was supporting your point, or at least trying to. And the Tom Poti part was a joke.
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by red army line on Jun 20, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
The Chris Prongers and Chara’s of the world of course. I’m not saying the caps are remotely likely to land one, but it is what’s needed. If there were a John Erskin with a little more talent that would be the ideal kind of player for the caps. Not so many points but clear the crease and drop the mitts with anyone who messes with one of our goalies or Russians.
People have tried to line up AO coming across the middle for his entire career. It’s never resulted in a cheap shot, and that’s not because there has been an enforcer on the roster to protect him.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Jun 19, 2010 4:22 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
If said enforcer is a guy that will run the crap out a hot goaltender and inspire the rest of a team to do so, then yes.
I look to the future because that's where I'm going to spend the rest of my life.
Alexander Semin?
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by red army line on Jun 22, 2010 5:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Shootouts don’t count.
"Ovechkin, what is good in life?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them driven before you. And to hear the lamentations of their captain."
Didn’t he run over someone on a breakaway this season? I’m fairly sure the Caps got scored on on the resulting PP too.
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by red army line on Jun 22, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s a yes or no thing.
Yes to a guy who, like zephyr said above, would do what it takes to change momentum in a game. Not necessarily for “bodyguard” purposes, though. We’ve seen with Bradley that this team isn’t afraid to stick up for each other, and I think that’s way more valuable than someone who knows how to fight.
No because a) enforcer would take up a roster spot that could be used elsewhere, b) enforcer would take up cap space needed for other positions, and c) don’t need a bodyguard for AO, as I elaborated above.
In the end, the cons outweigh the pros for me.
So, thanks, but no thanks.
If my answers frighten you then you should cease asking scary questions.
"It's not fair. He's just a pitcher." - Dave Jageler
You know you wanna.
Oh, and for the record, I love Lappy, and he’s not a zombie. :D
If my answers frighten you then you should cease asking scary questions.
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You know you wanna.
I simply don’t get it. How do fight “victories” help you win a Cup?
With the voters at “hockeyfights” attributing a meager 5 victories out of the Caps’ 20 fights, I started thinking, “Do the Caps desperately need an enforcer?” and “How could GM George McPhee have been so blind to this oblivious fact?”
Could anyone who wants that species of enforcer please complete the following sentences?
- Having an an accomplished fighter on the team would translate to playoff victories in the following way:
- In the past five years, the fighting skills of an accomplished fighter helped his team win the following playoff games around the league:
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jun 20, 2010 9:52 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
I think the NHL is moving away from traditional ‘Enforcers’ to today’s ‘Instigators’: a third or forth line forward who gets in players’ faces with the intention of pissing them off to the point of drawing them into a penalty or at least a stupid play that can be capitalized on. Sean Avery, Steve Downie, Patrick Kaleta, Dan Carcillo – all hated by by opposing teams and their fans, but understand what they have to do and have some success in it. Chimera showed a bit of it in the Boston Game driving Tim Thomas crazy. Steve Pinizzotto in Hershey can definitely do the job.
"It hit me on the pants. I had protection. It felt good. Why? I wanted to win."
Yeah, exactly. “Goons” are out. Most instigators can also contribute offensively as well a decent amount—Avery can score 20 goals in a good year, Ott can too, etc.
SDR is also the type.
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by red army line on Jun 20, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
What are the Capitals plans for SDR next year do you think?
Certainly seems to offer the kind of grit we will need down the road. I think the last I heard people were saying he needs to fill out some. Will he get to Hershey next year?
Cool Hand Lannan has carried the mail in anonymity for two years. He'll carry the mail for at least two more! Give the man some defense and he'll give you the world. MOAR GROUNDERZ! MOAR DOUBLE PLAYZ!
by souldrummer on Jun 21, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I find it hard to believe an enforcer’s going to change much of anything. As it pertains to this discussion, there are basically three kinds of players in the NHL:
- Players who don’t generally take cheap shots
- Players who take cheap shots and don’t stand up to fight (Matt Cooke, Alex Burrows, Jarkko Ruutu, etc)
- Players who take cheap shots and are willing to fight
The first group of players is very unlikely to throw a cheap shot in the first place and, since the vast majority of guys who never throw cheap shots also don’t fight all that often, I question how much a heavyweight’s going to deter them if they get upset enough to throw one.
The second group of players are out there stirring up crap every night. It’s how they play and part of the reason their paycheck is the size it is. They’ve found a way to exist in the NHL even with a lot of guys on there who a better in the fisticuffs department.
The third group, well, wants to fight. They’re not going to be deterred.
So who is it, exactly, that’s going to be deterred by a guy who’s taking minutes and cap space away from more valuable players?
by David Getz on Jun 20, 2010 5:55 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
I don’t think it’s a matter of needing one guy to do the team’s fighting. I think the question was originally asked because of a perceived lack of general team toughness.
I love the fact that Ovechkin will do his own enforcing but do we really want our franchise player dropping mitts with the likes of Steve Downie on a regular basis?
And how about next season when Ovechkin already has Colin Campbell watching him, just waiting to suspend the repeat offender again the first time he does anything even the least bit controversial in the physical play department?
I agree with the conclusion that the Caps do not need a resident goon. But they need the guys they have here -all 20 -to man up a little. They must make themselves harder to play against in the postseason. Both the Flyers and the Blackhawks brought plenty of brawn to the rink. Brawn and a willingness to get down and dirty when the time came.
There was a time when the Capitals were long on brawn and hard work but a little short of talent. Now they’ve got all the talent in the world but need to toughen up if they want to win it all.
by Jeff T on Jun 24, 2010 9:33 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Anyone know where you can get stats on player fights? I’d like to do a count at how many fights the caps were involved in as a whole as well as other teams to compare.
It doesn’t look like hockey-reference.com keeps track of that shit
Ahh yes… So.. for 2009/2010
Games: 1230
Fights: 714
Most fights: Ducks: 78
Least fights: Red Wings: 19
Avg per team for season: 49.5
CAPITALS: 20 (2nd to LAST)
Average Fights Per Game: 0.58
Fights Per game for the CAPITALS: 0.24
One might infer that the Caps were just plain pussies this year.
I’d like to think that this was due to the caps trying to have more disciplined play. HOWEVER according to hockeyref. the overall average of power play opportunities against a team for the season was 304. The Caps gave up 316, so they likely committed more penalties than the other team
For an outsider that hasn’t watched many Caps games, one COULD infer that we’re a bunch of pussies and need an enforcer, but if I think we were just smarter.
For most of all the minutes of all the games we played, we were in the lead more than we were trailing and fighting is something you really only do when
a) YOU’re BEHIND AND NEED A SPARK. This wasn’t an issue since we were ahead most of our games. Anyone who watched all our games this season knows they were plenty of opportunies where the losing team was trying to start some shit, but we wisely backed down. Why get in a fight when we don’t have to?
b) IF A MORE SKILLED PLAYER IS TRYING TO FIGHT YOU, because then you take each other off the ice and in the end, your team is at advantage. Most games I saw, our players were pretty good about backing down from fights when it was a crappier player being the aggressor, unless they were defending a dirty shot.
I think our basement number of fights is a sign of wisdom and not of weakness. When you have an offense as beastly as ours or if you find yourself trailing behind for most games, then you need an enforcer. But the Caps are just fine without them. We don’t end up in situations where we need a fight and when a fight is called for, we have plenty of people that are capable.
sorry.. mistyped
sorry.. mistyped
When you DON’T have an offense as beastly as ours or if you find yourself trailing behind for most games, then you need an enforcer
http://www.hockeyfights.com/leaders/teams/1/reg2010
Notice.. Of the top 10 teams in fights:
- Half of them didn’t make the playoffs
- 2 were teams that just BARELY made the playoffs
The combined +/- for the top ten teams in fighting was -62
more interesting stuff
Top 5 in fights this year:
http://www.hockeyfights.com/teams/7/season_leaders/reg2010
Spread out
BOS Shawn Thornton 21
COL Jared Boll 21
TOR Colton Orr 23
OTT Matt Carkner 24
PHI Ian Laperriere 25
TBL Zenon Konopka 33
Also.. Take a look at the team that actually WON the CUP:
http://www.hockeyfights.com/teams/7/season_leaders/reg2010
Also.. Take a look at the team that actually WON the CUP:
http://www.hockeyfights.com/teams/7/season_leaders/reg2010While they’re just below average in the number of fights per game, they sure as hell spread the wealth. Obviously some people were more eager to get rough than other, and pretty much everyone got their hands dirty, but there really isn’t a single person on their squad that went ape-shit more than his teammates.
Also.. Take a look at the team that actually WON the CUP:
http://www.hockeyfights.com/teams/7/season_leaders/reg2010While they’re just below average in the number of fights per game, they sure as hell spread the wealth. Obviously some people were more eager to get rough than other, and pretty much everyone got their hands dirty, but there really isn’t a single person on their squad that went ape-shit more than his teammates.And again according to hockeyfights.. Despite Chicago being around the average in regular season fights, they had 0 fights in the post season. Even the Flyers managed to limit themselves to just 1 during the entire campaign.
Also.. Take a look at the team that actually WON the CUP:
http://www.hockeyfights.com/teams/7/season_leaders/reg2010While they’re just below average in the number of fights per game, they sure as hell spread the wealth. Obviously some people were more eager to get rough than other, and pretty much everyone got their hands dirty, but there really isn’t a single person on their squad that went ape-shit more than his teammates.And again according to hockeyfights.. Despite Chicago being around the average in regular season fights, they had 0 fights in the post season. Even the Flyers managed to limit themselves to just 1 during the entire campaign.The top 2 teams in the playoffs combined for just 1 single fight.
Also.. Take a look at the team that actually WON the CUP:
http://www.hockeyfights.com/teams/7/season_leaders/reg2010While they’re just below average in the number of fights per game, they sure as hell spread the wealth. Obviously some people were more eager to get rough than other, and pretty much everyone got their hands dirty, but there really isn’t a single person on their squad that went ape-shit more than his teammates.And again according to hockeyfights.. Despite Chicago being around the average in regular season fights, they had 0 fights in the post season. Even the Flyers managed to limit themselves to just 1 during the entire campaign.The top 2 teams in the playoffs combined for just 1 single fight.The top 4 teams combined for 4
Also.. Take a look at the team that actually WON the CUP:
http://www.hockeyfights.com/teams/7/season_leaders/reg2010While they’re just below average in the number of fights per game, they sure as hell spread the wealth. Obviously some people were more eager to get rough than other, and pretty much everyone got their hands dirty, but there really isn’t a single person on their squad that went ape-shit more than his teammates.And again according to hockeyfights.. Despite Chicago being around the average in regular season fights, they had 0 fights in the post season. Even the Flyers managed to limit themselves to just 1 during the entire campaign.The top 2 teams in the playoffs combined for just 1 single fight.The top 4 teams combined for 4The average number of fights for a team for the entire playoff run was 1.19.
Also.. Take a look at the team that actually WON the CUP:
http://www.hockeyfights.com/teams/7/season_leaders/reg2010While they’re just below average in the number of fights per game, they sure as hell spread the wealth. Obviously some people were more eager to get rough than other, and pretty much everyone got their hands dirty, but there really isn’t a single person on their squad that went ape-shit more than his teammates.And again according to hockeyfights.. Despite Chicago being around the average in regular season fights, they had 0 fights in the post season. Even the Flyers managed to limit themselves to just 1 during the entire campaign.The top 2 teams in the playoffs combined for just 1 single fight.The top 4 teams combined for 4The average number of fights for a team for the entire playoff run was 1.19.…
Also.. Take a look at the team that actually WON the CUP:
http://www.hockeyfights.com/teams/7/season_leaders/reg2010While they’re just below average in the number of fights per game, they sure as hell spread the wealth. Obviously some people were more eager to get rough than other, and pretty much everyone got their hands dirty, but there really isn’t a single person on their squad that went ape-shit more than his teammates.And again according to hockeyfights.. Despite Chicago being around the average in regular season fights, they had 0 fights in the post season. Even the Flyers managed to limit themselves to just 1 during the entire campaign.The top 2 teams in the playoffs combined for just 1 single fight.The top 4 teams combined for 4The average number of fights for a team for the entire playoff run was 1.19.…Regular season: 0.58 fights per game
Playoffs: 0.28 fights per game
Also.. Take a look at the team that actually WON the CUP:
http://www.hockeyfights.com/teams/7/season_leaders/reg2010While they’re just below average in the number of fights per game, they sure as hell spread the wealth. Obviously some people were more eager to get rough than other, and pretty much everyone got their hands dirty, but there really isn’t a single person on their squad that went ape-shit more than his teammates.And again according to hockeyfights.. Despite Chicago being around the average in regular season fights, they had 0 fights in the post season. Even the Flyers managed to limit themselves to just 1 during the entire campaign.The top 2 teams in the playoffs combined for just 1 single fight.The top 4 teams combined for 4The average number of fights for a team for the entire playoff run was 1.19.…Regular season: 0.58 fights per game
Playoffs: 0.28 fights per gameSo another conclusion one could draw… Enforcers are great for teams where there may be some doubt about whether or not you can make the playoffs. But you’re pretty damn sure you’re going to make the playoffs, and no one fights in the playoffs.. then why waste a roster spot on someone who can’t play for shit?
Also.. Take a look at the team that actually WON the CUP:
http://www.hockeyfights.com/teams/7/season_leaders/reg2010While they’re just below average in the number of fights per game, they sure as hell spread the wealth. Obviously some people were more eager to get rough than other, and pretty much everyone got their hands dirty, but there really isn’t a single person on their squad that went ape-shit more than his teammates.And again according to hockeyfights.. Despite Chicago being around the average in regular season fights, they had 0 fights in the post season. Even the Flyers managed to limit themselves to just 1 during the entire campaign.The top 2 teams in the playoffs combined for just 1 single fight.The top 4 teams combined for 4The average number of fights for a team for the entire playoff run was 1.19.…Regular season: 0.58 fights per game
Playoffs: 0.28 fights per gameSo another conclusion one could draw… Enforcers are great for teams where there may be some doubt about whether or not you can make the playoffs. But you’re pretty damn sure you’re going to make the playoffs, and no one fights in the playoffs.. then why waste a roster spot on someone who can’t play for shit?
I’d like to see what the team that actually WON the CUP did with regards to fighting.
I waited all year for this?
Chicago was middle of the pack during regular season in # fight.. a little below league averagey. No one was really a standout as racking up fights. The most fights one player had on CHI had 8, tied for 48th most. Toews even had one and got his ass kicked:
http://www.hockeyfights.com/fights/90722
They had NO fights in the postseason.. not 1. Even Philly only had 1 the entire time.
Ovi’s bound to have a fight sooner or later. I bet he drops whoever he’s up against. Hopefully it’s Briere :) I’d love to see the two of them go at it… and who wouldn’t?
This all according to hockeyfights.com
Related story from a while back.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
матовая Клими, Михал нуивирт ваш папа теперь
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by red army line on Jun 26, 2010 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
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