2009-10 Rink Wrap: Mike Green
by Stephen Pepper on May 18, 2010 11:01 AM EDT
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PrintFrom Alzner to Varlamov, we're taking a look at and grading (please read the criteria below) the 2009-10 season for every player who laced 'em up for the Caps for a significant number of games during the campaign, with an eye towards 2010-11. Next up, Mike Green.
Key Stats: Nominated for the James Norris Memorial Trophy, and led all defensemen in the NHL in goals and points, for the second consecutive season.
Interesting Stat: His +/- in Southeast Division GP (22) was just +4, versus +35 in his other 53 games played in 2009-10, by far the largest +/- discrepancy between in-division and out-of-division games amongst Caps' D. (But that +/- rating outside of the SE division was the best amongst all defensemen in non-SE division games.)
The Good: Mike Green was an offensive juggernaut again from the blue line, leading the team toward another season of 25.2% efficiency on the power play (this time, the league's best mark). His points total ,again, marked a career high.
To his primary defensive duties, he cruised to the best ratio of GF to GA per 60 minutes of all defensemen in the league save his pairmate, Jeff Schultz. "Quiet improvement" was the phrase that best described the development of Green's shutdown game this season. Or not so quiet when taking into account that he was on ice for 24 fewer goals at ES than fellow Norris finalist Duncan Keith (and just five more than third finalist Drew Doughty).
Green was also more disciplined during the season -- a two-game suspension aside -- committing an average of 0.36 minors per game, compared with 0.5 a season ago. Even more striking: he drew 20 penalties and took 18 at ES during 2009-10. A ridiculously impressive ratio for a defender, and one of the best in the league for a rearguard.
In short, Green put it all together . . . in the regular season.
The Bad: When the playoffs rolled around, Green rolled over. No, we shouldn't be that harsh. But a second consecutive season of regular season sizzle followed by playoff fizzle has raised serious concerns about Green's ability to perform in the post-season.
A shoulder injury dogged him in the spring of 2009, and this season his hinderance was, to paraphrase his coach and the team's GM, overzealousness, and perhaps also another injury, this time to his wrist. Whatever the reason, or excuse, for his play in late April, it sure throws a healthy bundle of kindling to the flames of "I told you so" critique of his Norris candidacy.
A crucial Game 5 at home against Les Habitants saw Green caught in the same fog that prevented the team's charter from landing the night before, seemingly out of step with the exigencies of the moment and the playmaking of his teammates. What's worst, he followed up a third-period benching in Game 7 of the Penguins series in 2009 with a Game 7 vs. Montreal this spring in which he committed a blatant and pointless O-zone cross-check, late in the first period, that gave the Habs a power play and, from it, a lead that they would never relinquish.
Green needed to perform at least in the vicinity of his regular season level in order for the Caps to advance beyond the first round. He didn't, and they didn't.
The Vote: Rate Green below on a scale of 1-10 (10 being the best) based on his performance relative to his potential and your expectations for the season - if he had the best year you could have imagined him having, give him a 10; if he more or less played as you expected he would, give him a 5 or a 6; if he had the worst year you could have imagined him having, give him a 1.
The Discussion: Will next spring be the one that Green brings his regular season game to the post-season? Was Green just "trying too hard" in the Montreal series? What will it take for him to earn a 10 rating next year?
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He gains some points for his improved defense, and penalties. And loses some for his playoff performance (or lack thereof). And he did slightly better on offense than I expected.
But grace can still be found within the gale. With fear and reverence, raise your ragged sail.
by Steckel Me Elmo on May 18, 2010 11:04 AM EDT reply actions
I guess I should say, he got a 7 from me.
But grace can still be found within the gale. With fear and reverence, raise your ragged sail.
by Steckel Me Elmo on May 18, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Will Green continue to struggle in the playoffs?
It’s a worrying sign that he plays his worst when it matters most. It’s a trend that goes back to his days in junior hockey. However, this isn’t Lidstrom, Niedermayer, or Pronger we’re talking about here in terms of experience. He’s only 24 years old. Will these bad outings eventually allow him to get better? And what about his fitness? It seemed like again he just runs out of gas by the end of the season, and that may contribute to his poor play in the postseason.
by Caps-Preds Fan on May 18, 2010 11:06 AM EDT reply actions
I don’t know if it’s fair to knock his Junior playoff performance. By all accounts he was on a horrid team, and none of us actually watched those series, so saying “it goes back to Juniors” is not necessarily fair or accurate. He still had some huge post-season series for Hershey and was great against PHI (and then in the World Championships that year) in 2008.
I waited all year for this?
i’ve hesitated to chime in re: his philly series, because i don’t have anything to back it up. i know his raw stats look oustanding, but i remember green making note of 3 or 4 horrendous mental errors that led directly to goals. maybe when i have time after finals i’ll try to dig up the highlights and box scores.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I’m sure he may have done that given his defensive acumen and his TOI, but I specifically remember the Flyers team saying their first priority was shutting down Mike Green. That’s about all the praise I need to hear to know he was causing problems in the playoffs that year.
I waited all year for this?
i’ll take what the other coaches say to the press with a grain of salt.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Rate Green below on a scale of 1-10 (10 being the best) based on his performance relative to his potential and your expectations for the season – if he had the best year you could have imagined him having, give him a 10; if he more or less played as you expected he would, give him a 5 or a 6; if he had the worst year you could have imagined him having, give him a 1.
They're coming.
by Bald Pollack on May 18, 2010 11:09 AM EDT reply actions 7 recs
4
i expected him to be a league leader and Norris finalist…no improvement there…sorta hard to unless his production jumped WAAAAY up.
knocked him down to a 4 because i expected him to be better in the playoffs, he wasn’t…and now i’m starting to wonder whether or not Green is a big game player (a la john carlson). to be fair, the 2nd goal in game 7 was not 52’s fault…he was racing to cover for the other D who misplayed the puck off the glass.
and now i’m starting to wonder whether or not Green is a big game player (a la john carlson). to be fair, the 2nd goal in game 7 was not 52’s fault…he was racing to cover for the other D who misplayed the puck off the glass.
funny that these two sentences are one-after-the-other, since JC was the other D you’re speaking about.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Maybe it wasn’t solely his fault but Green deserved to get hammered for that play.
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
Yeah. And several others. I hope these guys learned a lesson. They needed to commit to D for 60 minutes and they didn’t. Every lazy backcheck seemed to end up in our net. Every time we took a play a little too lightly we got burned. Those small mistakes added up and cost us the series.
I waited all year for this?
Normally I wouldn’t expect guys to feel like they need to backcheck every time when the other D could just play the puck away and out of the zone instead of ignoring it completely trying to make a big hit.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
by Davethecapsfan on May 18, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
7
It was extremely easy to criticize Green after the playoffs, 3A +1, horrible PP #‘s where he is the QB, but looking at the series now after PIT ran into the same Halak, I’m not ready to throw the entire blame on Greens shoulders. The regular season was slightly better than I expected. His defense did improve and overall he was in better position for most part. I’m a Green fan and apologist. I want to give him an 8, but he really deserves a 7.
For him to get a 10, he needs to maintain his point per game average, anything more than that is really absurd. He needs to improve his defense still. Hit more, and most importantly, lay off of the pizza after 10pm.
4th Floor, is next, swimvare, undervare, Eric Fehr...
So you actually expected less from Green this season? I just have a hard time coming to grips with the idea that Mike Green over-performed expectations this year.
I waited all year for this?
by Rob Parker on May 18, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
To expect him to put up the same amount of goals would be ridiculous. He improved defensively. He took less penalties. He dished out more hits. He played more games. He QB’d the best PP in the league.
So yes, my expectations were exceeded. I actually expected his numbers to come back to normal.
4th Floor, is next, swimvare, undervare, Eric Fehr...
I thought his goals would drop and his assists would be up and that he’d still lead the league in points by D. Check.
I thought he’d improve his defensive game. He should have, after all he’s 24. Check. (But let’s also keep in mind that he was terrible defensively until after Team Canada was announced. I honestly thought he had regressed to start the season. Jan-Feb. he was good again, and then he was almost excellent after the Olympics. But then the playoffs happened and he couldn’t carry it through.)
I thought he’d play with more confidence and maturity. Debatable but I’m not sold.
QBing the best PP in the league is pretty generous praise for him. And whatever bonus he gets for being the QB necessarily gets balanced by 1/33 when it mattered.
I just don’t see anything that wows me enough to even consider higher than a 6.
I waited all year for this?
by Rob Parker on May 18, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I point is that the kid is 24 and put up ridiculous numbers. Absolutely ridiculous numbers. Historical mind-boggling numbers. To expect that again from a kid and then to expect him to improve his defense is a lot to ask from a kid, but he did.
4th Floor, is next, swimvare, undervare, Eric Fehr...
But you saw how good he was already for 2 seasons. You saw his skill, the system, the skill around him. It was more reasonable to expect another huge offensive season than for him to fall of the earth. He’s still young so he should have been improving. You say it’s a lot to ask, but it’s also the natural progression. Just because he’s already really really really ridiculously good looking at hockey already doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be getting better.
I waited all year for this?
Green might have had his career year 2008/09. Those numbers may not be matched again for years. It truly was a special year for Green. Kinda like Gretzky’s 92 goal season. Could you really expect 92 again?
4th Floor, is next, swimvare, undervare, Eric Fehr...
4
Green gets a 6 for the regular season and a 2 for the playoffs. That averages out to a “4”. Offensively, he met expectations, being a point-a-game player, quarterbacking the league’s most potent regular season power play and pushing the pace with his one-man-breakout. Defensively, his play improved – for long stretches he played great positional defense and added a physical element to his game. But there were regular season stretches where he tried to do too much and his play consequently ranged from ineffectual to terrible. There was a game against Ottawa earlier in the year which was the worst game I’ve ever seen the guy play. (The weight of the Canadian Olympic invitiation definitely had an effect on him.)
The playoffs were a disaster. I wrote a fanpost during the Olympic break hypthesizing that Green and Semin were both a) padding their stats against crappy teams; b) that their effectiveness dropped significantly when they played good teams; and c) that they had to step up their games for the playoffs if the Caps were going to make a run in the playoffs. We know how reality unfolded. And so my concern hasn’t really been disproved: Green is Dr. Jekyll/Mr Hyde – an all-star against average competition in the Fall; and simply an average defenseman in the Spring. Some could justifiably call him a “choker”, although he’s still young enough that he can shed that moniker in the future.
So my brother ran into ShaMo and Laich at Front Page in late March. He wished them "good luck" for the upcoming playoffs. When he told me this story I got really pissed and blurted: "You wished THEM luck?!? They need to wish us fans luck for the excruciating way they'll manage to break our hearts this spring." They didn't disappoint.
Green gets a 6 for the regular season and a 2 for the playoffs. That averages out to a "4".
For a team where coaches, players, and management all say in so many words that playoffs are an expectation for this team, and there is only one goal, I also have been rating playoffs equal to the regular season.
The less playoff games there are to rate, the more I think this is a fair way of rating.
The less playoff games there are to rate, the more I think this is a fair way of rating.
But we’re rating based on the criteria laid out above (twice, actually), not on some mathmatic formula. By extension, Boyd Gordon > Mike Green.
They're coming.
by Bald Pollack on May 18, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Well lets talk about that for a second.
If Green (or anyone) scores 10 goals and is a + 12 in a 5 game stretch in the regular season I don’t think we’re all just going to vote 10 and walk away, agreed? We’re all looking at the overall picture of the season.
The playoffs were a significant part of the 2010 Capitals’ season – expectation wise – according to various players, coaches, management, and perhaps a few fans :)
I’m sure if the same or more people want to rate performance in the regular season as more important than performance in the playoffs that will come out in the wash, just like the people who vote all 1’s or all 10’s…
Understood. That said, I’d give him a little more credit for improving on the stuff he did in 76 games rather than overly indicting him for the stuff he did in the last 7 which, while egregious and frustrating, is still part of the entire season as the criteria lays out.
They're coming.
by Bald Pollack on May 18, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh
I actually gave him a 5 overall like you did you know. I was just agreeing with the rating method, not the score itself.
Come here hondo, let’s hug!
Full disclosure: I probably would have given him a 4, but I read Peerless’ By the Tens on him, that helped me out that he’s still a work in progress, despite his tenure.
They're coming.
by Bald Pollack on May 18, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
But what if playoff performance is built in to your pre-season expectations?
I waited all year for this?
What if pre-season performance is built in to your playoff expectations?
Mind blown?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on May 18, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
if snotboogie always stole the money, why’d you let him play?
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
If my mother had four wheels she’d be a garbage truck – or at least that’s what she always said.
Every bursted bubble has a glory! Each abysmal failure makes a point! Every glowing path that goes astray,shows you how to find a better way. So every time you stumble never grumble. Next time you'll bumble even less!
Gots to man, this is America.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on May 18, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
a few more early playoff exits from this core of players, and i’ll be wondering if that’s an allegory for all caps fans. snotboogie always stealin’ my money.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Pre-season performance was built into my playoff expectations. We beat CHI with an AHL lineup. I was positive our NHL lineup would be able to handle them.
I waited all year for this?
Even if they played 1000000 times?
They're coming.
by Bald Pollack on May 18, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
i don’t see anywhere in the criteria instructions for how to weigh the playoffs.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
76 games played + 7 games played = 152 games played? Whatever.
I thought his defensive game was much, much improved this year, and that made him a significantly more valuable player to the team than he was last year. I never EXPECTED him to be a Norris finalist or match his offensive output from last year that had him in the talks of being on the cover of NHL 10. Nor do I get caught up in his awful playoffs performance. I was probably extremely generous because I knew there would be a lot of this, but I put him down for a 9. His regular season play will, some day, be posted in the postseason. He is the defensive A-Rod of hockey, apparently.
76 games played + 7 games played = 152 games played? Whatever.
No, Total performance = .5(Regular season performance) + .5(Playoff performance).
Given the team’s goals and expectations this season, I think that’s more than fair.
i feel the same way. that’s where i came down on gordo, too. at this point, every player needs to bring his A game in the playoffs. the team could go long stretches without any one of these guys (even AO) and still qualify for the playoffs.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s an absolutely lollerific attitude, but I’m just me. I’m not saying that we forgive them for a poor playoff performance completely, but putting equal weight on the samples is absurd.
Why? On a team expected to easily make the playoffs (which happened) why would you not rate the playoffs, which in itself is a second season, just as highly if not more? We’re not looking at this team with division champion expectations, we’re looking at them with Cup expectations, which to me would almost make the regular season near null, since they don’t award the Cup in the regular season.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
by Whiter Mage on May 18, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
would you rather the league go to the english premier league format, awarding the championship to the regular season’s best record? if a team’s season is decided by a series of 4-7 games, i don’t see why our player expectations shouldn’t reflect that.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow. That is absolutely not my point, either of you. My point is that anything can happen in a seven game series. It’s so arbitrary to base a player’s performance on a particular seven game set. Just because it’s the playoffs shouldn’t and doesn’t prevent any player from performing within their normal bounds of talent and luck. Any team is never a favorite to win the Cup until they are in the Finals; thus it is absurd to rate how “good” teams are based on how they do in the playoffs. Note… that doesn’t mean that I think the playoffs aren’t a worthwhile exercise, or exciting, or that I don’t care who wins the Cup — quite the opposite. You prove how good you are in the regular season, how “great” you are in the playoffs. This year’s Caps were probably the best in franchise history, but they never reached the greatness that comes with winning the Cup.
So, likewise, it’s absurd to base your opinion of a player’s season based on a stretch of seven games in which any player, any player, can look great or terrible. That is so arbitrary. But it’s your vote; I don’t care.
My point is that anything can happen in a seven game series. It’s so arbitrary to base a player’s performance on a particular seven game set.
right, but the league is set up to evaluate teams in 7 games. although no single team is an odds-on favorite to win the cup, performance over a 4-7 game stretch is the sole basis for winning a championship in the NHL. a player’s performance over 4-7 games is only as “arbitrary” as his team’s performance.
this good vs. great distinction you’re making is totally baffling to me. you don’t think the playoffs are a measure of how good a team is, but you think they are a measure of how great a team is? the definitions are only in your mind as far as i can tell. ultimately, the goal of every hockey team is to win the stanley cup. a hockey team succeeds by excelling in the format laid out by the league, i.e. small samples of 4-7 games against a given opponent. so for a team to reach its goal and have a successful year, it must overcome the small sample size issue (which introduces luck and chance) through superior play and will. if the team does not overcome the sample size issue, then the team had an unsuccessful year. i don’t see why our player evaluations should be any different, since we’re matching them to our own expectations, and the team’s success or failure is determined by its players’ success or failure.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
further to the point, we’re not evaluating whether mike green is a good or bad player. we’re evaluating whether his season met or surpassed our expectations. i’d argue the 2009-2010 caps were the best team in franchise history. they were a very, very good team. but their season was not a success. their season did not live up to our expectations. not by the parameters BB and GMGM laid out at the beginning of the year, nor by the standards the league created when it devised a system to award its championship trophy.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
It seems like (you can check me on this) that you want to incorporate the playoffs into all this, which is fair, but I think you can differentiate between “Regular Season means Dick”™ and “Good except in the playoffs.”
They're coming.
by Bald Pollack on May 18, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
sure…if regular season means dick™ was my only voting consideration, i’d have scored green a 2 or 3 (because i was wary of his nerves last year), and i’m sure a lot of people would have scored him a 1. but i certainly weigh the postseason as much as the regular season, and for a player with green’s accumulating postseason track record, i may weigh his postseason more than his regular season in future years.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s only fair. It sounds like we disagree on the varying degrees, but I could be wrong.
I was kinda like J.P. on it to be honest, but it felt like (to me, anyway) giving him a 4 was too much an indictment on the postseason. Maybe Peerless helped give me an out to rationalize a 5, I dunno.
They're coming.
by Bald Pollack on May 18, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
i think that’s right. what’s funny is that despite my loyalty to this argument, i gave green a 6. i already had my concerns about his playoff chops coming into the season, and like RedBirdie below, i really wasn’t sold on green as a PPG producer after just one full season.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
My point is that anything can happen in a seven game series. It’s so arbitrary to base a player’s performance on a particular seven game set.
Seems like as good a time as any that some people have been pointing out the pitfalls of a 7 game series all season and have been acutely concerned with consistent performances.
I waited all year for this?
by Rob Parker on May 18, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
why does it always come back to alex semin with you!!1
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, good vs. great is entirely in my head. But so is this voting thing in general; I’m just trying to reflect my point of view that the 7 games in the playoffs should not be weighted anywhere near as much as the 82 game regular season. No team and especially no single player can control how small sample sizes affect the outcome of the playoffs — unless you have a team built of the best players in the league, your talent is not going to be enough to have a significant advantage over any other team (except maybe the Oilers) to the point where you can indict a season on those few games. “Superior play” and “will” is, honestly, a bunch of bullshit. Talent alone doesn’t win championships, and will has nothing to do with it.
My point with the good vs. great thing was, ultimately, that the Caps were the best team in the league this year, or very, very close. But because they lost in the first round, they will never be regarded as such. That doesn’t make it any less true, but, because they didn’t win a Stanley Cup (or even a playoff series) the season was a failure. That’s fine in my book; I agree with the assessment. But to base an opinion on a rating for a season about an individual’s performance equally on 7 games and the 82 that preceded it is absolutely insane.
"Superior play" and "will" is, honestly, a bunch of bullshit. Talent alone doesn’t win championships, and will has nothing to do with it.
so are you arguing that playoff success is an extenuation of regular season success based on straight probabilities? because the repeated playoff success of certain teams (i.e. the red wings) contrasted with the repeated playoff failure of certain teams (i.e. the sharks) makes me think there is a component of “bringing your game when it matters” that is outside random chance.
regardless, you see my point that success in the NHL is ultimately defined by winning championships and excelling in the playoffs. i don’t know how you can concede that point and then regard an equal weight to playoff performance as insane.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
No team and especially no single player can control how small sample sizes affect the outcome of the playoffs
Obviously over a short period of time weird things can happen in terms of results, but I don’t think anyone’s marking Green down solely based on his results. The problem was his performance – he looked lost, he tried to change his game, he made bad decisions, etc. Marking him down because of that is very different from marking him down because he was unlucky or the other team had a stellar performance to stop him.
"Superior play" and "will" is, honestly, a bunch of bullshit.
Superior play is real – it’s playing better than your opponent, and it’s very highly correlated with winning games. Will is also very real, and has a pretty significant impact – after all what does it matter what your talent level is if you don’t care?
by David Getz on May 18, 2010 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Averaging 6 and 2 to make 4 implies that the regular season and playoffs have the same relative worth. We are at a point with our Capitals that the playoffs are significantly more important than the regular season- especially given the division in which we play. That average, if you are using that methodology, should be weighted with more value attached to the playoffs.
Mike Green succumbed to the pressure of the playoffs, pure and simple. He let it get to his head, and his performance suffered as a result. I noticed with many of the Caps in the last few weeks of the regular season. They were not playing a game. They were not having fun. They were overburdened with the expectations they had for themselves, and that we as fans had for them, (justifiably). They couldn’t, and didn’t handle the pressure- Mike Green most of all.
by Boodgiesdad on May 18, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
4
I expected him to lead defensemen in goals and points assuming he was healthy, and I expected him to improve his defense. He did both of those things, so good on him.
His playoff performance was so bad I contemplated giving him a three, but I’m only going to deduct one point for that.
To get a ten, he’s going to have to hit 30 goals again, have over a point per game, continue to improve defensively, and improve his skating and conditioning. He’s also going to need to show up in the postseason.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on May 18, 2010 11:16 AM EDT reply actions
4
But that pretty much shows how high the level of expectations for him is when he drops 19/57/76 +39 and you go “that’s it?”
I think trading him is a dumb idea, as some have demanded.
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 11:16 AM EDT reply actions
Trading him is absolutely a dumb idea. I don’t know what would be fair value for him, but most people who I’ve seen say that do it with a “Get a defenseman like Hal Gill for him.” Montreal would make that trade 100 times out of 100.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
by Whiter Mage on May 18, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
TEH CAPS NEED BIG SHOTBLOCKING CREESECLEARING DMAN!!@@!! RCKO TH REDDDD!!
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
And the funny part is, those same people after 20 games of Hal Gill will be saying the Caps should trade Gill, complete bust, and get a guy like Mike Green.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 18, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
5
We all could live with 75+ points out of a guy on the top pairing year in and year out. But it says here that he should spend a lot less time worrying about the twitter, the website, the ads, the blingity bling and the life, and more time in the gym, on the ice and in the video room if he wants to take it to the next level and become a great* all around defenseman. He’s got the tools, but I don’t see it yet in the mental makeup he’s demonstrated when chips are down.
It wouldn’t hurt this kid a shred to have something more of a mentor—on or off ice—who won’t put up with the assfoolery and distractions that must be set aside when the time comes to really work and want it in the postseason.
99 problems and a coach ain't one.
Disagree with your assessment that he needs more time in the gym because, as you say, he’s got the “tools” already. I do like the idea of a mentor for him, just to keep his head on straight at the end of the season and into next year’s post season.
"It hit me on the pants. I had protection. It felt good. Why? I wanted to win."
he needs a shrink, too
#savethekittens!
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
by RedBirdie on May 18, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
bingo
99 problems and a coach ain't one.
by bigonetimer on May 18, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
@GreenLife52
I have not seen a single Tweet from Mike Green since April 13th (3).
- April 9th (2)
- April 8th (3)
- April 7th (6)
- March 27th (4)
For people who Tweet regularly: what Twitter usage category would you consider Mike Green’s?
A. He SPAMs my Twitter feed until I don’t see anything else!
B. He might Tweet once in a while, and usually it’s interesting.
Personally, I do NOT think Twitter is to blame for Green’s performance whatsoever.
The last “blog entry” (a video from NHL.com) on Green’s web site was posted on April 5th, the date of Green’s 19th goal of the season. The “blog entry” is two short sentences long. I likewise do not blame his website.
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by IRockTheRed on May 18, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, from what i know mike green’s tweets are few and far between. he went for a few months last season without tweeting anything. i think “hey is this movie avatar really any good?” stayed as his most current tweet for ages.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
No one’s saying “Damn, Mike Green’s season was ruined because he uses Twitter!” The point is, he seems to devote an awful lot of time to things that aren’t getting better at playing hockey, and I don’t think anyone can debate he has more of an off-ice presence than most players. Is the criticism accurate? That’s hard to say. But I can certainly see why fans would be concerned about it.
But it says here that he should spend a lot less time worrying about the twitter, the website, the ads, the blingity bling and the life, and more time in the gym, on the ice and in the video room if he wants to take it to the next level and become a great* all around defenseman.
Looks like blaming Twitter happened right there…
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No, Twitter is the symptom of what’s being blamed.
I waited all year for this?
by Rob Parker on May 18, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That’s not how I read it.
bigonetimer – what did you mean?
Photography: I Rock the Red
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He meant that Green is a little too interested in the perks of being young and rich, and not enough interested in doing the things that lead to realizing his potential in the game of hockey.
And I agree with him.
Green’s maturity factor is signficantly troubling. In fact, I think he’s already lost a step in his skating speed, and I suspect, but cannot “prove”, that it’s related to his lifestyle.
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
by fat_daddyo on May 18, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
5. He quietly improved his overall play in the regular season, even if he forgot most of it in the playoffs.
To the discussion, I think he’s perhaps still trying to find the balance in his game in being effective on both ends. It doesn’t mean he’s going to break 20 goals again (he doesn’t have to with this offense), but he’s likely to get even more PK time than at any point to date in the bigs, so maybe something clicks.
They're coming.
6
The offensive numbers were still devastatingly good, even though they were a bit down from last year. He has the most offensive skill of any defenseman in the league and is not afraid to use them. He is taking fewer chance than he used to, but at the same time is making more out of the chances he takes. He is also becoming more of a student of the game.
All that aside, each year when the playoffs roll around, he seems to disappear. Whether to injury or fatigue isn’t the point. Once the regular season issues are settled (which for the Caps was at the Olympic break), he doesn’t have to play every game. Give him some nights off, maybe one every 2 weeks. If there is a need for him to play every game, then fine, otherwise….
To get to a 10, he would probably need to get back to 30 goals, and be the Norris Trophy candidate in the playoffs that he is in the regular season.
As a side note, he really does deserve the Norris this year for his regular season play. He better win it this year too, as Drew Doughty is going to be building a collection of the miniatures he wins starting in the near future. Green will be Brad Park to Doughty’s Bobby Orr when it comes to to Norris trophy balloting (Doughty is not as good as Orr, he’s just likely soon to be the best defenseman in the NHL much like Orr was in his day, or Lidstrom was recently…)
Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy
Somewhere around 5 or 6 is essentially how I feel as well. He more than lived up to expectations during the regular season but when the playoffs rolled around, things just fell apart. Everything culminated in that disastrous game 7. I don’t remember ever being so frustrated with a player before…
"In the depths of winter, I learned there was in me an invincible summer" ~Albert Camus
When the playoffs rolled around, Green rolled over. No, we shouldn’t be that harsh.
Yeah, we should. He didn’t just roll over, he hurt the team with how bad he was.
Will next spring be the one that Green brings his regular season game to the post-season? Was Green just “trying too hard” in the Montreal series?
I think Green needs to be managed better. He gets too many minutes, way too many minutes in meaningless games, and skates shifts that are too long. I guess you can, to an extent, make the argument that he’s been so far above his peers the last couple years that he was going to see huge minutes, but with Schultz, Carlson, and Alzner developing that shouldn’t the case any more. Get him ice time that won’t exhaust him, show him he doesn’t need to carry the defense corps on his shoulders, and see if he calms down and plays better.
by David Getz on May 18, 2010 11:31 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
He would be among the many on this team that aren’t having their minutes managed correctly *cough*coaching*cough*
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey, that RW is in a couple of weeks.
They're coming.
by Bald Pollack on May 18, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry. Bit of a premature wrapitation.
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure I’m in agreement with the ice time idea. I would agree that he can have his minutes pared back as a product of the improved supporting cast coming on the blue line. But as a top reason for late season problems? Perhaps that is being overstated, and here is why…
Green finished ninth in average ice time this year, which is consistent with a top-pairing defenseman. Of the eight ahead of him, three are still playing (Pronger, Boyle, Keith). Of the top-20 defensemen in the league in average ice time, only six skate less penalty killing time than Green (presumably the sort of time that takes a higher toll). None of those players are still playing, while the same three noted above (who skate more PK time) are still playing, and three others (Chara, Gonchar, and Lidstrom) went further in the playoffs.
I would absolutely agree though that his shifts are too long — he skated longer average shifts than any defenseman in the league this year, and that can’t be discounted as a reason for his late season problems.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on May 18, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That’s a good point, but I think Green generally skates harder minutes than other guys who get comparable ice time because he’s frequently rushing the puck up the ice or joining the rush on the attack, as opposed to a guy like Pronger, who’s noted for his ability to manage his exertion on the ice.
The other thing is, even if the Caps are best off playing Green 25:30 a night, I’d still like to see them cut him back a little and save something for the postseason. I think the Caps have the luxury of being good enough that they could reduce his ice time by enough to help Green and still get in to the playoffs easily.
The ice time thing did get me wondering about something. One of the reasons Joe Corvo was brought to the Caps was to provide, as I understand it, some relief on the power play so that Green wouldn’t have to skate the full two minutes (as he often did with Ovechkin at the points). Then how is it Green’s average ice time was up marginally, and his power play ice time was up by almost a full minute?
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on May 18, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Because Corvo sucked on the PP? And there was never really an answer for a point man on the second unit the entire season. They even tried throwing BMo back there.
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I was very much disappointed in Corvo. At first I thought it was a case of changing teams, and that can be hard on an offensive defenseman (do I pinch, do I stay back, where do I position myself), but Carolina isn’t all that different from the Caps in philosophy. By the end of the season, I just didn’t have the feeling he was fully engaged.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on May 18, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Totally agree – GMGM got the body in trade, didn’t get the heart.
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No kidding. I literally don’t think I’ve ever seen an NHL defenseman less willing to take a hit or battle in the corners or on the boards than Joe Corvo as a Washington Capital.
Which is why i’m still hoping they can find a decent (affordable) FA to fill that role. Like Pavel Kubina.
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I appreciate the commitment to the Lobby, but he’s way out of our price range.
I waited all year for this?
He’s coming of a hit of 5. I don’t see him getting that type of money again. I think he’d be acceptable at a hit of 3-4
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
He’d be acceptable but I don’t know if he accepts that. Why take such a big cut when someone will pay you more? Plus that whole 2C thing.
I waited all year for this?
I don’t know if anyone will even give him 5 again. He just turned 33, and the Leafs were so desperate to get rid of him that they traded him for Garnet Exelby.
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know if anyone will even give him 5 again. He just turned 33, and the Leafs were so desperate to get rid of him that they traded him for Garnet Exelby.
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m hearing the Leafs were desperate to get rid of him :)
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And that’s a JFJ contract too!!
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know if anyone will even give him 5 again. He just turned 33, and the Leafs were so desperate to get rid of him that they traded him for Garnet Exelby.
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Blah!!!
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
You may be right. But he had a pretty good season and he played well in the Olympics. I can’t see him going under 4. I’d rather use our money on a C and get a cheaper, “quieter” guy on D.
I waited all year for this?
we’ll see…i might be out on island here, but with a full season of JC and KA, i think the D unit is cup-caliber. if only the 2C UFA options were better, i’d say go all in on a 2C.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
You aren’t on an island with JC and KA, but I’d still like more help on the back. They may be our best pair if they stay together all season. JC especially is clearing hurdles like nobody’s business, but I think Alzner is going to turn the corner and really advance quickly once he finally does.
I waited all year for this?
i'd prefer
green-schultz
JC-poti
alzner-juice
let’s roll.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
As Rink Archivist you surely are aware I’ve advocated for that same D corps before.
I waited all year for this?
in that case
AO-backstrom-knuble
semin-fleischmann-green
fehr-belanger-laich
bradley-steckel-gordon
volchenkov-poti
JC-juice
alzner-schultz
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
i do actually really dig laich on the 3rd line, if it were possible.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
On D, I’d rather bank on improvement from Schultz, improvement from Green (please?), a hold-the-line sort of season from Poti, top-4 contributions from RAH, top-6 contributions from Alzner, and a cheap #6 defense. Then maybe Erskine for depth, Sloan in the AHL for insurance.
Then put cap money into 2C.
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by Chris Burton on May 18, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
i wonder if kubina would just be misused by BB and staff, similar to corvo’s fate. my hopes for corvo were admittedly too high, but i don’t see kubina as leaps and bounds better.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree completely. The single most important change I feel this team can make for next season is manage ice time better. Bruce actually went the other way at the end of the season and was having guys (particularly Ovie and Greener) play even more minutes a game.
Remember that desperate attempt to tie up a game late in the season where he left his powerplay unit out there with the goalie pulled for an outrageous amount of time and they damned near hurt themselves. Bruce needs to fix that and get reins on these thoroughbreds big time.
Great. Now I have to change my name to "Jaromir meet Alex".
by Chris meet Alex on May 18, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
6. Greenie is a generational talent. in only three full seasons in the nhl he’s been nominated for the norris trophy twice. a nomination not made by internet geeks but by professional hockey writers…and most likely excluding a vote from at least one of the local beat writers due to post restrictions on such things. olympic snub aside, thats impressive. his offensive talents are undeniable and his defensive play is improving and he is not the pylon that one might think he is based upon many fan opinion’s.
however, IMO, he’s the caps equivalent of nuke laloosh. not saying he has a 10 cent head, but something in his makeup doesn’t seem to allow him to excel in pressure situations…situations where he may be thinking too much and not just playing his game.
his regular season was an 8 in my book, which is good since we all have high expectations of him. but his playoffs were a 2. when you QB the top ranked PP in the regular season that suddenly goes 1 for a million (and that one i dont think you had anything to do with), you are well below expectations. add to that the aforementioned penalty and bad cover on the second goal in game 7 and you’ve got a 2 (which may be high).
he would seriously benefit from being around an experienced, winning defenseman next year. he would also benefit from not playing 25 minutes per game in meaningless games at the end of the regular season.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
btw, a 10 next year is simple. perform in the playoffs like you do in the regular season.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on May 18, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
he’s been nominated for the norris trophy twice. a nomination not made by internet geeks but by professional hockey writers
Yeah, professional writers also gave Selke votes to Viktor Kozlov based on his plus-minus and coaches and managers gave Rafael Palmeiro a gold glove a season he played 28 games in the field.
Not saying Green doesn’t deserve it (I thought he should have won last year), just saying that just because you’re more directly involved doesn’t mean you’re more knowledgeable.
Yep. When the MVP voting results come out, I guarantee there will be some ridiculous nominees who got votes.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on May 18, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
There’s a difference between a few stray votes and enough to land you in the top-three, so the Kozlov comp is irrelevant, IMO, as is something as blatantly political and reputational as the Gold Glove. If anything, Green has had to overcome the biases and preconceived notions of those “more directly involved” to get the recognition.
Mike Green was one of the top three all-around defensemen in hockey this regular season. He deserves to be a Norris Finalist.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
To clarify, I wasn’t really trying to draw a comparison between Green’s nomination(s), just trying to illustrate that writers and insiders have made enough odd decisions that I take their aggregate voting with a grain of salt.
But the aggregate voting essentially renders the odd decisions meaningless and distills what’s actually worthwhile.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
It isn’t unique to hockey, but I wonder what on earth makes sports writers the best evaluators of performance (when everyone knows it’s bloggers). I think it’s just a racket so they can get travel to induction ceremonies or award ceremonies.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on May 18, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Theoretically, they’re the objective observers and are thus best-positioned for adjudging such things. In theory.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
there are always going to be anomolies, but the point is that the nomination is from people who follow the game and should be up to speed on particular players. not skewed by folks with fan bias. then again, i’m sure a lot of the writers are from canadian cities and my actually be biased against mike green cause of the perception that he plays no defense and his offensive number are from riding the coattails of ov, etc. at least that’s what alan may told me could happen.
not sure exactly the process for voting, but i would think that with the number of voters that there should be no flukes when you get to the top three in ballotting. particularly two years in a row.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on May 18, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Palmeiro did something other than juice up?
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
by Whiter Mage on May 18, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing wrong with juicing
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on May 18, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
God I hate the Orioles.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
by Whiter Mage on May 18, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Before this thread goes any further, allow me to add...
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on May 18, 2010 11:40 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
C’mon… hit me now, Pronger. You’ll bounce to the balcony!
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on May 18, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, I’d love to hear a non-laughable argument from somebody who voted a 1.
Great. Now I have to change my name to "Jaromir meet Alex".
by Chris meet Alex on May 18, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
not that I did give him a 1 (I went with 5), but some could argue that his offensive performance was down in the regular season and he was not good in the playoffs. Those same folks probably have waaay too high expectations and might even be in the “Trade Green” club
LET'S GO CAPS!!!
I thnk that’s a good attempt at channeling a “1-voter” but it’s still laughable.
Great. Now I have to change my name to "Jaromir meet Alex".
by Chris meet Alex on May 18, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You would think some of the haters would have learned their lesson about harshly judging young defensemen after watching Larry Murphy go on to four Cups and the HOF. What really blows me away are the people who say they gave Green a 5 because they expected him to win the scoring title again. Pretty amazing when you consider that in the last 12 seasons it’s only happened once..and Mike Green is the only player to do it.
What really blows me away are the people who say they gave Green a 5 because they expected him to win the scoring title again.
Really? Maybe it was a bit naive, but Green was so good that even a slight drop off offensively (I mainly was thinking in terms of goals) would still put him atop defensemen in points, especially with more games played, and furthermore, I didn’t see much indication that the Caps’ PP would be any worse or their offense would be any worse. My expectation was for him to lead in points, since I saw the main competition as a regressing Nicklas Lidstrom, a Shea Weber who plays on a team that doesn’t score nearly as often as Washington, an aging Chris Pronger who plays with an excellent top-4, and Dan Boyle who flat out isn’t as good as Green.
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Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 18, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
at the very beginning of the season, i don’t think it was unreasonable to wonder whether green was a flash in the plan last year. two years in a row of outstanding production gives me more confidence in him going forward.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess I took confidence from his 2007-2008 under BB as well as the 2008-2009.
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Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 18, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
same here. I was fully expecting Green’s points to be in the 60s. Really good production, but not the historically great season he put together in 08-09. I thought it would be unrealistic to expect him to put together two ppg seasons in a row. I’m quite thrilled I was wrong on that count.
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TWO years in a row...
This is now the THIRD year in a row his let the league in goals for Dmen
Great. Now I have to change my name to "Jaromir meet Alex".
by Chris meet Alex on May 18, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
*
Damned mobile spell check…
“THIRD year in a row he’s led the league in goals for D-men”
Great. Now I have to change my name to "Jaromir meet Alex".
by Chris meet Alex on May 18, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
If Nick Lidstrom or Scott Neidermayer or Al McKiinis couldn’t do it once in the last dozen years, it ain’t that easy.
No, but it’s somewhat similar I guess to NHL.com’s preseason poll about the Richard winner—about 70% AO, I believe, even though a three-peat goals title is rarely done (as it is heavily affected by variation in shooting pct). AO got the vote of confidence in such a big manner because of the dominance with which he led the league (10 or more goals each year), not for simply leading the league. I saw the same with Green—his dominance, and little reason, in my mind, for him to regress—I thought his fitness would improve, the D would improve, and guys up front like 14, 16, 19, etc, would improve as well, and 22 in front would add more goals. I guess I wouldn’t have been surprised if he had lost it, but I expected a top-3 finish in defenseman points if not the leader.
Now, next season I don’t expect him to lead defensemen again. Caps’ shooting pct this season was off the charts and I don’t think they can match that offense.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 18, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Nick Lidstrom did 80 in 80 the first season after the lockout. (or did you mean back-to-back point per game seasons?)
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Back-to-back. Lidstrom won the scoring title five times in the last 12 years but never won it in repeat seasons. That alone says that those who expected Green to repeat just weren’t aware of how historically difficult it is.
ok, I gotcha now. so, not only has Green won back to back scoring titles for D-men, he did it at a PPG or better. that’s absolutely insane production. I think we’re terribly spoiled getting to watch that on a regular basis.
He’s also led d-men in goals for the last 3 seasons. If I have some time this afternoon, I’ll try and see how that compares against others.
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I forgot about the goals. I bet he’s the only one who’s done it as well. If I get the time, I’ll try and go back further on the scoring titles.
I did a quick search back to 1998 for goals, which is as far back as nhl.com goes. Gonch did it two years in a row, but that’s it.
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funny how those things happen.
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I’m not sure if I transcribed the numbers correctly from the NHL.com stats engine, but I got
Lidstrom won by 2 points in 1998 with 1 fewer game played (Niedermayer).
Macinnins won by 5 points in 1999 with 1 more game played (Lidstrom, Bourque)
Lidstrom won by 11 points in 2000 with 2 more games played (Pronger).
Leetch won by 8 points in 2001 with the same number of games played (Lidstrom; should be noted Lidstrom finished 12 points ahead, in 15 more games, of 3rd place Blake who had 59 points)
Note that this season sticks out like a healthy thumb, as it was his second best since his 100 point season 9 years earlier.
Gonchar and Lidstrom tie, 3 points ahead in 2002 (Blake; Lidstrom with 3 more games played, Gonchar with 1)
Macinnis won in 2003 with 1 more point in 2 fewer games played (Gonchar).
Gonchar won by 4 points in 2004 with 9 fewer games played (Pronger; 10 fewer than Niedermayer, also 4 points back)
[lockout; Gonchar signs in league-worst Pittsburgh]
Lidstrom won by 9 points in 2006 with 2 more games played (Zubov).
Niedermayer won by 2 points in 2007 with 3 fewer games played (Gonchar).
Lidstrom won by 5 points in 2008 with 2 fewer games played (Gonchar).
Green won by 9 points in 2009 with 10 fewer games played (Markov).
Green won by 7 points in 2010 with 7 fewer games played (Keith).
In bold I have what I think are the remotely comparables. We’re not talking marginal point leads of one or two with same games played, we’re talking 10 points or so when looking at games played (all the players are pretty durable, IIRC). And the only one that really appears on the same level is Gonchar in 2004, as the others are single digit margins over a nearly full season.
Bottom line is, Green was the farthest ahead offensively of any guy on this list, relative to his peers and points-wise, and he’s the youngest by about 5 years, it looks like (to 2002 Gonchar). I hadn’t realized a defenseman leading the league in points in back-to-back seasons was so rare, but I feel comfortable in having expected that this season, although I’ll be more cautious about next season.
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(note name change)
by red army line on May 18, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
rec’ed. impressive amount of work.
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this is one area where the history lesson is always welcome and really needed.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t get it. It seems to me that it is perfectly legite to harshly judge Green on his season. As many expected, he was the best offensive defenseman in the league, that was my expectation. I also expected him to mature a bit, take the “he should be a winger” criticism to heart, and improve in his own end. which he did. On that basis alone he earns a 5. Throw in the utter failure that the team was, and the role he plays on the team, I don’t think its the least bit unfair to ding him and say he didn’t live up to my expectations.
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5
7 for the regular season, but loses two for the playoffs. (I am adding or subtracting up to 2 points based on playoff performance, although nobody earned a plus 2 this season.) I was very impressed by his improvements on defense, but I expected more goals.
Next season, he needs to continue his improvement on defense and have 90+ points in the regular season, and play like that in the playoffs for a 10. A 5 would be a PPG again, maintaining his play on defense, and solid play in the playoffs.
The boy needs a sports psychiatrist to allow him to ignore what the media and the fans are saying about him.
Waiting 'til next year.
3
He’s proven he can play the regular season. He met expectations there, easily. However like Ovechkin and Backstrom, they now have to prove what they can do in the postseason.
What did Green prove? That he barely deserves ice time come April. Just a disaster, swinging from barely making an impact to trying too hard and cross-checking someone after you lost the puck. His conditioning is still suspect as well.
For a 10 next year, he needs to get the postseason ironed out. He doesn’t need to win games for the Caps, but he needs to look like the premiere defender he was all regular season. We already know how many points he will get us and how effective the PP is with him running it. Now it is time for that same stuff to show up in the playoffs.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
Of course Green sucked in the playoffs! He’s supposed to be a winga! Go Flyers!
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on May 18, 2010 11:47 AM EDT reply actions
I gave him a 4
If this was just voting on the regular season, I would have given him a 7, maybe an 8. Offensive numbers were about what I expected, defensive play was much improved. But in the playoffs, he was so incredibly bad / below his regular season in both offensive and defensive play that I had to bump him all the way down to a “below expectations” grade. If he had just been invisible, we probably would have still won the series; Instead, he was a liability.
The Discussion: Will next spring be the one that Green brings his regular season game to the post-season? Was Green just “trying too hard” in the Montreal series? What will it take for him to earn a 10 rating next year?
To earn an 10 next season, he’ll need to put up another norris-worthy regular season, and that carry that performance deep into the postseason. I do think his main problem this post-season was “over-thinking” things….letting his mind tie up his feet. Hopefully he can get past that next spring. I can’t say I am necessarily expecting it at this point, but it sure would be a welcome development in his game.
6
it’s nice to know that green’s offensive output is here to stay. even though his numbers aren’t as gaudy as last year, i never “expect” a player—even AO—to lead his position in goals and points. especially after only one year at the top. i don’t think the paul coffey comparisons are out of line, and i hope green is a cap for a long, long time.
still, his playoffs prevent me from doling out more than a 6. i’m sorry, but he’s a nervous wreck out there, and the caps aren’t going to win any cups until their TOI leader gets his crap together. it’s really like we’re watching a totally different player, and it’s agonizing. same thing last year: even though the injury/illness rumors were rampant, so many of his 08-09 postseason mistakes were mental errors and positioning errors. i’ll buy that injuries can take you off your game in other ways, but green was actively hurting the caps’ chances when he was on the ice, and we were treated to a repeat against the habs. i’m hoping experience and maturity (and maybe a little bit of competition from JC?) will help green take the next step in 10-11.
honestly, if he’d played equally as well in the postseason, i might have awarded a 9 or 10. same goes for next year. if his plus-minus penalty ratios remain solid, he remains a top-5 scoring defensemen, and he’s an impact player in the playoffs, i’d consider the 10. with green especially, it’s all about april and may going forward.
HIs numbers (goal scoring, anyway) were gaudy last year because he had the streak. He might have been a better overall offensive defenseman this year, and his defense improved. I still quake about his decision making from time to time, especially a disturbing tendency to skate himself into situations where he can’t help but give up the puck.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on May 18, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
What’s impressed me offensively is that he wasn’t as aggressive as last year and still put up comparable numbers, indicating to me that he’s improved (i.e. if he played as aggressively he’d put up better numbers than last year).
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 18, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
4
Well…as usual… depends on how you weigh the postseason.
Gotta be at least 6, probably 7 for the regular season. Those are videogame - and assist numbers. And there was no way he could keep pace at goals@12.8">30+goals@12.8%, that was clearly an up year.
As for the postseason… ugh. Whatever
by Bushwood Bushwhacker on May 18, 2010 12:22 PM EDT reply actions
4
He upset me, and not just in the postseason. His defense improved, but his offense dropped off (production wise) and it didn’t look like the same Mike Green back there to me. Maybe I want Paul Coffey, I dunno. I just was a little upset by him this year.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
Perhaps have one the greats of all time at managing the defensive end and offensive push creates an unrealistic expectation for us.
Great. Now I have to change my name to "Jaromir meet Alex".
by Chris meet Alex on May 18, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps having one the greats of all time in the league right now
Great. Now I have to change my name to "Jaromir meet Alex".
by Chris meet Alex on May 18, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
i mean, i’m as big a john carlson fan as there is, but….
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Something something Ovechkin something something…
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
by Whiter Mage on May 18, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean, maybe.
"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."
by Whiter Mage on May 18, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
he just made is all look so damn effortless in 2008-2009. I can’t find the words to describe that season, other than “unbelievable.”
this past season, it didn’t come quite as easy (and to be bluntly honest, I prepared myself for 60ish points, because PPG d-men are simply unheard of these days), but he still managed to crack that PPG barrier. That he managed to do that despite looking like a complete basketcase the first few months is rather remarkable.
I just not sure, points-production wise, you’re expecting out of him. I certainly understand the frustration with his mental lapses, his basketcase games, his brain farts. But speaking strictly about his offensive production, he’s producing at a level that is so far beyond everyone else.
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by RedBirdie on May 18, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
For all his minutes my impression a lot of the time was he was a lazy skater when not leading an offensive break or trying to get to the red line for a dump.
Some people look like they’re not moving their feet and they’re actually flying. Other times it’s about being smart positionally or puck control. I thought a lot of the time it was energy conservation.
(Shorter shifts please)
I gotta admit – I’m not sure how to vote on this guy right now.
On the one hand, I thought he made real improvements in his defensive game, and really didn’t sacrifice offense – he actually increased his even-strength points-per-game and 5-on-5 points-per-sixty.
On the other hand, the playoffs. And the media day fiasco. After a season of defending the guy against detractors, those were a gut punch.
So we’ve gone from all-offense-no-D to mostly-offense-some-D to an offensive dynamo who plays decent enough D but needs to mature in a big way, both on and off the ice. And he’s only 24-years-old.
I’d be lying if I said I was OK with where he is right now, but recognizing that he is still improving and maturing, I’m not about to throw in the towel on him. I guess it all adds up to… 5.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Something about his play and body language in the playoffs fairly screams, “GET HIM A MENTOR!”
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on May 18, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
you may laugh, but Chris Chelios was the first guy I thought of
More norrissey, less morrissey
by bigonetimer on May 18, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
the last thing Greenie needs is a mentor who says “Yes, opening a chili bar is an awesome idea!”
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by RedBirdie on May 18, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I’m glad someone got it!
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Random cheap vet that I’ve been eyeing a bit… Adrian Aucoin. He’s been up and down a bit in his career, but I think he could be a fit.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Only if he grows ridiculous mutton chops like his brother Keith.
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Heh.
That would be more amusing if they were actually related…
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Twitter: @IRockTheRed
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Aren’t they cousins?
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know; I don’t believe so, but I’m looking. They’re definitely not brothers.
Photography: I Rock the Red
Twitter: @IRockTheRed
E-mail: irockthered {at} gmail {dot} com
OK
EliteProspects.com lists his cousin as Adrian Aucoin… brother is Phil Aucoin… that is the only source I’ve seen indicating that is the case, though; neither player’s NHL biography mentions it.
Photography: I Rock the Red
Twitter: @IRockTheRed
E-mail: irockthered {at} gmail {dot} com
Aucoin also has mad skillz in the shootout, and hey, a shootout specialist can only help us pad our regular season point totals even more.
"Ovechkin, what is good in life?"
"To crush your enemies. To see them driven before you. And to hear the lamentations of their captain."
success in the shootout is the true mark of a leader!
#savethekittens!
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
would really like to see someone w/ his name on the jar.. or more significant, deep playoff experience.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on May 18, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
good call. It’s been a while since we’ve had something Tinordi-esque, and he can still play.
More norrissey, less morrissey
Ugh. I know nothing about his son, but I’m sick of GMGM reaching to draft based on bloodlines.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on May 18, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree. I wish Lidstrom would say “screw the Red Wings, and making an appropriate amount of money”. A year with that guy and the Capital’s defense would be an absolute terror. There’s so much improvement to be made among the blueliners that the sky isn’t the limit, it’s the entire damned galaxy is the limit. The sooner the guys get in gear the sooner the team cements a legacy. Not that defense was necessarily the problem with the team in that regard, but there’s so much talent skating around back there now they could outshine even the forwards if they just had some greyhair veteran there to really show them.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
i hadnt considered the media day no show as part of my rating. but clearly that is a below expectations move for a guy who’s profile and paycheck suggest he should be a team leader and above such things. all the more reason why i think he would benefit from playing with an experienced, accomplished defenseman next year…would not hurt calson/alzner and schultz either.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on May 18, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, if you assume Green, Schultz (re-signed), Poti, Alzner and Carlson, there are probably two roster spots (maybe three) for an experienced, accomplished defenseman. Does Morrisonn come back (I’m thinking, “no”)? Does Corvo come back (I’m guessing, “hell no”)? Does Jurcina come back (maybe)?
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on May 18, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
and can Erskine and/or Sloan be moved?
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i’d put corvo’s return at <10% probability. i’d say shamo and jurcina are more likely.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on May 18, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I expect this poll to have the highest standard deviation of any rink wrap.
DC Landing Strip - Waxed and Ready to Go
Bet Semin’s will be greater.
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Poti should be interesting too. I want to vote 10 and 1 at the same time on Poti somehow.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again
Tom Poti: causing bi-polar reactions since 1998!
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4
Noted improvements in the regular season in every thing stated above. I really doubt anyone would give him below a 5 for the regular season. He is what he is and made some improvements from last year during the regular season.
The thing is though, and its been thrown around here a lot: Regular Season Means $%*&.
Here is where my problem lies: Green is one of the key cogs to this team. I don’t necessarily expect him to be the one that takes over a series in the playoffs. I expect him to play his role and if given one of those moments to accel go for it.
What I will not accept from any key player on the team is moronic moments in the playoffs, and it had never ever be from the core group. If your not going to contribute to the success of the team you sure had better not contribute to the failure, especially in the playoffs during a F&#%ING GAME 7!
These learning curves suck, but please hockey gods let all our learning curves be done with.
plagued by penguins fans at work
3
Part I, Regular Season: He didn’t score the goals that I expected, but his assist totals were much improved; I value goals more than assists, so from an offensive standpoint I put him at a 4 for offense, or the low end of “as expected”.
His defense improved greatly, considerably more than I expected, so I have him at a 9 there.
I had also hoped that he would show more maturity this season, after he made so much noise at camp about losing weight and being dedicated to maintaining his condition. The remark about the video camera and a stack of singles made me cringe, and the unhealthy look on his face makes me think he was simply candid in that comment. I give him a 2 for maturity and leadership.
On balance, he gets a 5 for the regular season.
Part II, Playoffs. He gets a 1 from me on this score. He was woeful.
I strongly considered weighting the playoffs more heavily, but I just averaged the two scores in the end.
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
5
I expected a few more goals than he got. I got a better stay-at-home-puck-mover, a better even-strength guy, and with even more points than last season. Combined with underwhelming in the playoffs (quite honestly, I didn’t think he was that bad, but definitely not the 1D the Caps could have used, and a stretch top-4) that comes out to the middle. I thought he could have made a serious case for the Smythe…I still think he can.
Will next spring be the one that Green brings his regular season game to the post-season?
I think it depends on the length. I find it heartening that Joe Thornton seemingly needed the pressure taken off of him to perform and some time to find his game in the playoffs (I don’t see why it won’t continue), and with JC74 having played such solid hockey, I can see a similar situation happening with Green, especially if BB cuts his TOI to 23 mins/gm or so for the regular season.
Was Green just “trying too hard” in the Montreal series?
I think that’s part of it. Seemed like he was trying to be the perfect defenseman, a Lidstrom, when he’s not. His offensive game suffered heavily as a result.
What will it take for him to earn a 10 rating next year?
90 points, 20 goals, 30 or better, around point-per-game in the playoffs in 12 Caps playoff wins (i.e. SC finalist) and all-around excellent and critical to the Caps’ success (a Smythe top-5 contender type of player as well).
And no PP lulls when it’s really important.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
4
But I know I’m hammering him. I could easily have given him a 5 but those playoffs were bad. I fully expected him to dominate in the regular season so he really could only get a 6 at best for the regular season. But I did strongly believe he would show up for the playoffs and prove to everyone that the shoulder injury last year and the fat stuff was what held him back. He massively disappointed in the playoffs, and given that he’s a key piece of the team I just can’t give him a score that reflects him meeting my expectations. Objectively, he had a pretty damn good season; lots of points, Norris nomination, etc. But relative to expectations, not so much.
I have no idea if he brings his A game to the post-season next year. I’d love to believe it, but he lost the benefit of the doubt. This year I said “just wait and see, he’ll be good” (and so did he!), but he wasn’t. Now I’m at the point of “I’ll believe it when I see it” with Green and the post-season. If he was just trying too hard in the MON series, that’s not acceptable either. That’s the stuff head cases are made of.
To get a 10 he’d have to continue the offensive domination we’ve come to know, but he’d also have to become the player he can be in his own end. That means he’d have to dominate at both ends of the ice, because if we’re being honest, Mike Green has as much defensive potential as anyone. If he put it all together he could be Scott Niedermayer with a better shot and better size. I used to think that might be possible, now I’m highly skeptical. But that’s the bar for a 10. Best D in the league in all zones. I’m not going to get hung up on his PKTOI or QComp or any of that crap because so much of it is under BB’s control and not Green’s. But how he approaches the game and how he commits to keeping the puck out of the net is under his control. Until he takes that step a 10 is just a pipe dream for him.
I waited all year for this?
5
5 seems about right. Green’s expectations are pretty high. You know he’s going to rack up the points. And he did. You also expect him to be a sieve (somewhat) on defense…and he seemed to shore that up a bit, so that was a plus for him. You would expect him to continue racking up points in the playoffs, to an extent. And he did not. So that’s a black mark. All in all, he was about average. I’d have dropped him to a 4 because of the playoffs, but he is a Norris finalist, and that should count for something. I don’t want to hammer anyone too much on their playoff performances, because none of them got the Caps to where we all expected them to be.
It would be really, really hard for Green to get a 10 next year. 90 points, with 30 of them as goals is a must. Really, really solid in the D end as well. Norris finalist again. Also, he’d have to show up and produce at a level he should be able to be at in the playoffs. And even then it would be hard for him to get a 10. Expectations are just that high for him…
This is where we hold them! This is where we fight! This is where they die! Remember this day, men, for it will be yours for all time.
6
The 6 is based as it should be on the fact that he slightly exceeded my expectations. I did expect the high scoring number he produced and am excited that we may have that for years to come. The exceeds expectations comes for his overall hustle and improvement in his defense. He has a long way to go, I agree, but I don’t think he merited a lower number.
I cannot explain the second straight playoff swoon. I wish I could. At least statistically, 2010 is worse than 2009, but who knows why. No shoulder injury to blame this year.
I looked to see, at least statistically, whether poor play by 55 could have been the cause. Sure, 55 was minus 1 in the Habs series and one of only 6 Caps (21, 89, 9, 77, 14) who were minus. But that appears be the only anomaly. I looked at the 2009 playoffs as well However, 26’s then stats are about the same as 55 this year, in TOI/game and in +/-.
So -stats don’t show his partner let him down appreciably. Perhaps somewhat, but not appreciably. Facts suggest that 2010, albeit in half the games, was worse than 2009. 3 points in 7 games versus 9 points in 14. +1 in 7 games versus +5 in 14.
He still gets a 6 from my perspective — and I will repeat what I’ve written multiple times here — Mike Green needs a mentor. Green needs an elder statesman D or a retired D to explain to him how to be a #1 shut down guy to go with his scoring. As long as we don’t have someone to mentor him, I fear he won’t improve.
Every bursted bubble has a glory! Each abysmal failure makes a point! Every glowing path that goes astray,shows you how to find a better way. So every time you stumble never grumble. Next time you'll bumble even less!
Only on the 2010 Caps
Can a defenseman score 76 points, finish with a +39, be a Norris finalist, and still get called out for playing worse than Jamie Heward.
Every time Matt Bradley scores a goal, everyone inside the Beltway should get the next day off from work. It's only fair.
Actually...there is precedent!
The 1990-91 Caps had one Kevin Hatcher score 70+ points and get a few Norris votes while taking his purse modeling career to the next level.
So my brother ran into ShaMo and Laich at Front Page in late March. He wished them "good luck" for the upcoming playoffs. When he told me this story I got really pissed and blurted: "You wished THEM luck?!? They need to wish us fans luck for the excruciating way they'll manage to break our hearts this spring." They didn't disappoint.
Wasn’t that the year they had 3 Dmen with 20 goals (Hatcher, Johansson, Cote)?
I never travel far....without a little Big Star...
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on May 18, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re thinking of 93-94 (Hatcher, Iafrate and Cote). 90-91 was the year K. Hatcher led the team in scoring and Kelly Miller led the team in goals. Yes, Kelly Miller. Not a good regular season, but we made it to the playoffs, beat the Rangers and proceeded to lose our first of many series to the Penguins.
So my brother ran into ShaMo and Laich at Front Page in late March. He wished them "good luck" for the upcoming playoffs. When he told me this story I got really pissed and blurted: "You wished THEM luck?!? They need to wish us fans luck for the excruciating way they'll manage to break our hearts this spring." They didn't disappoint.
1992-93, actually.
Iafrate – 25
Cote – 21
Hatcher – 34
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In theory, that would suggest that we all had different expectations.
Every bursted bubble has a glory! Each abysmal failure makes a point! Every glowing path that goes astray,shows you how to find a better way. So every time you stumble never grumble. Next time you'll bumble even less!
8, 9 or 10 voters?
How the hell do you justify a number at this level??
I can completely understand the guys that are in at the 5-6 level, and maybe even 7, given the subjective nature of expectations and perceived value of a season.
But in order to vote 8, 9 or 10 you’d have to have either had extremely low expectations coming in (hard to see, given his work last season) or completely blown away by this season’s work (equally hard to see, given the lower G totals and the playoff flameout).
I don’t get it.
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
my guess is people aren’t reading the scoring criteria.
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Even if you’re rating the season simply on its own merits, was this really an outstanding season for the young man? Given the playoffs, I don’t see that either.
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
I think you’ve hit it on the head. If they follow the criteria, they must have considered that 52 couldn’t repeat 2008-2009. That’s the only explanation.
Every bursted bubble has a glory! Each abysmal failure makes a point! Every glowing path that goes astray,shows you how to find a better way. So every time you stumble never grumble. Next time you'll bumble even less!
I don’t know, someone above argued that the 7 playoffs games are just another 7 games in his body of work, and aren’t more important than the other 82.
Craziness abounds.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
i’ll back you up; you did not argue that.
by Natty Bumppo on May 18, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
5
Trying to be generous. This regular season was a bit better than last. This playoffs? Ouch! When he’s good, he’s very very good. When he’s bad – yikes!
My expectation for next year is the same as my unmet expectation for this year: Keep his head pulled out of his a** all year long and right through the entire playoffs. In other words – consistent focused disciplined play.
3, almost a 2
I’m stunned that the curve is centered so high on the scale. Green had a great regular season, but I don’t see how it wasn’t expected. In defending his occasional defensive lapses everyone pointed out that he is young and will improve, so why are people surprised that he continued to improve defensively? Despite the numbers, I don’t think he was as great offensively as last season. I didn’t expect 30 goals, but I expected at least 20. Plus, he didn’t have the same dominant speed and his shot didn’t seem as accurate or dangerous as last year. Overall, he put up the points but didn’t look like the dynamic offensive threat as consistently as I would have liked. So at best I think Green met my expectations for the regular season.
But all that isn’t enough to get a 3, and really when evaluating Green my focus was never going to be on the regular season, it’s all about the playoffs. And in the playoffs he was about as bad as I could have expected. I cut him some slack for last year, but was expecting major improvements this year. Instead, he was terrible at both ends of the ice.
Now, I’m very disappointed in his season, but trading him is not a good idea. Not while he still has a friendly cap number. He is still young so I have faith he will improve, but two straight horrendous playoffs puts his long term value into a much bigger debate than it was a year ago, especially with Carlson’s emergence. To get a 10 next year he’d have to get back to 30+ goals, continue to improve defensively, and most importantly, make a positive impact in the playoffs.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
7
I expected a drop off in production and he actually produced more. He’s a premium, solid, offensive defenseman that, like a premium wine or spirit, will get better with age.
I docked him a point for the playoffs because he deserves it. he has to figure out who he wants to be and stick with it. I think that’s normal for a 24 year old, especially a 24 year old defenseman.
He was a great pick and a lot of other teams are sahking their heads over that one.
i understand why others might not be too high on him after the playoffs, but really, he’s a norris trophy finalist, again.
by The Jade Donkey on May 18, 2010 3:25 PM EDT reply actions
1
All that matters is the playoffs. At this point what I expect is good playoff performances. A 10 would be a superstar performance from one of our star players. A 1 is a bad series from a guy who is one of our team’s best players.
We’re trying to win a Stanley Cup. Green can score a million goals in the regular season and it doesn’t get us to round 2. As someone who is our #1 defenseman, they can’t not show up in the playoffs and even be performing at their expectations.
Maybe a 1 is a little harsh, but if our superstars can’t do anything in the playoffs, we’re never achieving what should be our only goal.
All that matters is the playoffs.
So I trust you’ll be giving Tom Poti a 10?
They're coming.
by Bald Pollack on May 18, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
You thought he was that good? He was better than he had been for most of the season but a 10 is insane. His failed clear led to a game 1 goal against. That alone ruins a 10.
I waited all year for this?
by Rob Parker on May 18, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I give the kid credit for explaining his 1, but I’d hope he’s going to be consistent with the criteria.
Rec’ing your kayfabe nonetheless.
They're coming.
by Bald Pollack on May 18, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
hey now, 10 means way exceeding expectations. I’m surprised he had successful clears at all. On that note – full 10 if I followed 8vechkin.
by Vinn on May 18, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, I expect to scream “HOLY SHIT, POTI!” at least 6 times a game. I’m pretty sure it only happened twice all series. And once was that puck to the face. So, ten!
thank god that’s not how we’re doing these thing. Gordo would get a ten, too
#savethekittens!
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
His failed clear also led to one the biggest Caps goal of the series, too – if his clear isn’t partially deflected, it doesn’t go right to Gordo, who ends up scoring the shorty that turned that game around. Failed clear = win!
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7
To get a 10 next year – 30/50/80, +25, reduce giveaways.
To get a 5 – 15/45/60, +15 and otherwise approximate this (regular) season.
I was hoping for a little more on the goal front, but his ES offensive production was very good this season. I was tempted to give him an 8, but the post-season brought it down to just a high 7.
Next year he needs to improve on the PK, but at this point I’m more of the mind that it’s the system and not the players… so who knows what we can expect in that regard.
-d
5
He probably earned a 7 or an 8 for the regular season. I didn’t expect his goal total to be that high because so many of those were on the PP that teams were going to adjust to the backdoor play and we like to set up Ovie more for the one timers now. That being said, his points, +/-, and overall defensive game saw an improvement during the regular season.
Then came the playoffs, and the giant atom bomb it was. We can make excuses for him all we want, but he played a major role in both GA in Game 7 and being the guy who couldn’t keep the puck in the zone for the PP that went 1 for the playoffs isn’t helping. So I gave him a 5. Basically what I expected a little better during the regular season and far below what I was hoping he would do this year in the playoffs.
He’s still young…I expect him to have a bit of a slow start next year while he continues to figure out in his head how many risks he is going to take and how to keep retooling his defensive game. Hoping for a real strong last 60 games or so and goes without saying a better playoffs. I do think he was thinking too much in the playoffs and that it will carry over for the first 25 or so games next year. For him to earn a 10 from me next year he needs to lead the league in D scoring again, while continuing to improve his defensive play to the point that him and Schultz lock down the #1 pairing. He needs to actually deserve to win the Norris. Obviously he needs to show up in the playoffs as well.
Everything ends badly...otherwise it wouldn't end.
6
Regular season quite good, Playoffs sucked.
What expectations did people have of him for the playoffs? Never has seemed to be his time of year
never let the truth get in the way of a good story
2008 he was strong, 2009 he wasn’t but I give him a break because he had all sorts of things going on including injury/illness. In the Calder Cup Playoffs I think he was pretty good for Hershey, but I’m not certain of my memory all the way back to pre-BB. So I think saying
Never has seemed to be his time of year
is a bit harsh and early. I’m not so sure he can be great early on in the playoffs, but I think given a reduced role and longer playoffs by the Caps, he can settle in.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 19, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
playoff Bust
Yikes Green Sucks!
he’s worse than Hall of Famer Larry Murphy lol
trade him for St. Louis Dman Erik Johnson
by Mikko Leinonen's opposite on May 19, 2010 3:24 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
6 – An all-around terrific regular season followed by another poor playoffs. I have a hard time chalking it up to ‘trying to hard’. While not a professional athlete generally when I prepare for something I perform well, and if I don’t prepare, anything can happen. Mike needs to be commended for his improvements on the defensive side.
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