Steroid Probe Comes to Kettler
by Becca H on Mar 23, 2010 4:49 PM EDT
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PrintLaw enforcement officials visited Kettler Capitals Iceplex earlier this afternoon as part of an ongoing steroids investigation, with the latest inquiries stemming from a new arrest of a Northern Virginia chiropractor, Dr. Douglas Owen Nagel.
Per the Washington Capitals:
Florida law enforcement authorities have continued their steroid investigation following the arrest of Florida resident Richard Thomas in May 2009. The Washington Capitals are not the target of this investigation, and there is no evidence that steroids were provided to any Capitals players.This has been a thorough investigation, and we are satisfied that law enforcement, the NHL and our own internal investigation have not led to any link of steroid use by Capitals players.
The investigation included conversations with the Washington Capitals as far back as September 2009, and we were and have been fully cooperative and transparent in the past as well as today.
Dr. Douglas Owen Nagel, a Virginia chiropractor who was arrested today, is not affiliated with the Washington Capitals and is not the "team chiropractor," as he has stated. Dr. Nagel’s office, however, has seen some of our players for standard, routine chiropractic services.
As part of the NHL’s drug policy, Capitals players are randomly tested up to three times per year by an independent testing agency, which sends the samples to the World Anti Doping Association for testing. Capitals players have been tested twice so far this year. At no time in our history has a Capitals player ever tested positive.
More on this continuing story can be found here, and the full statement from the Polk County Sheriff's Department here.
Additional link/update:
(3/24, 9:23 AM): FanHouse, CI, Puck Daddy, ProHockeyTalk, SB Nation, Canwest
(3/24, 9:06 PM): WaPo, Ted's Take, Hockey or Die, FanHouse, CI, CI, D.C. Sports Bog
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FFS.
Anybody can say they’re something they aren’t. :-p
Blog: I Rock the Red
Twitter: @IRockTheRed
E-mail: irockthered {at} gmail {dot} com
So Wirtz was right. Ovechkin was on a ‘roid rage when he hit Campbell. I’m joking of course, but you watch. Someone in Chicago is going to say it. I love this team but can we just go one friggin’ week without some negative sideshow popping up?
Leave it to Puck Daddy commenters.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Nobody ever said that Puck Daddy commenters were intelligent.
Rocking the Red since 1975
by CapsFan75 on Mar 23, 2010 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
(Nevermind that AO was tested for the Olympics and players are randomly tested throughout the season.)
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Mar 23, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
again, wysh commentators have an answer. “its easy to cycle on and off”
these guys have been using their entire careers, ect.
Ovechking...
resident master jinxer
Having had to take steroids for my leg inflammation that I had in December, it is not easy to cycle off of them… your body goes into a severe withdrawal, and I was on a mild steroid…
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Mar 23, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
my mom was on massive doses of steroids when she was sick and the withdrawal was awful. You never want to see someone you love go through a drug withdrawal of any sort. ugly.
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
Donate to the Rink Pledge Drive for SAVES FOR KIDS! Ain’t nothing [wrong] about giving $5 so a stranger’s premature baby can have the time on a respirator they need.~Gould Old Days
eh, pretty much everyone playing sports professionally is on some sort of illegal/banned drug. Could care less about what anyone is actually on. We’re already asking people to sacrifice their body for our own entertainment — why is it people are suddenly up in arms they’re doing so chemically as well?
President and sole member of the Erskine lobby.
Very much disagree that pretty much everyone playing sports professionally is on some sort of illegal/banned drug. If that were the case, we’d hear about it a lot more than we do now. Even with the lax testing that happens in most leagues, it would eventually come out if it were that widespread.
However, I also agree that I don’t really care about what anyone is actually on.
why is it people are suddenly up in arms they’re doing so chemically as well?
Because it’s cheating.
by David Getz on Mar 23, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Baseball didn't start 'caring' until Bonds threatened the HR record
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
It is cheating and I don’t like steroid use. That said, I’m in agreement with commenters below who say that it’s most likely the more marginal guys who would be using and not those who would have been screened by the Olympics. The continuing presence of Marc McGwire in baseball is disgraceful.
erskine has scored...now i can die in peace
Baseball was forced to open its eyes when that happened.
It didn’t start caring until Bonds.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
True enough, but in baseball, the thing that puts fannies in the seats are home runs. Folks like to see baseballs go 500 feet, and baseball is happy to oblige them. Remember the 1998 season when McGwire and Sosa both went past Maris’ record? It was viewed as one of the great seasons back then. Now, every great accomplishment from that season, the HR race, Clemens’ Cy Young, etc. have to be viewed with a skeptical eye.
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Mar 23, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
On the plus side….Ovie, Semin, Varly, Flash, Juice, and Backis have all gone through Olympic anti-doping tests. No way in hell they could be on them.
If Popeye got stronger after eating canned Spinach....Imagine what canned Bacon could do for Ovie.......
by crafty on Mar 23, 2010 5:03 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Great point!
You hear something like this and you’re just scared something bad could color a great year like this. This line of thinking helps put my mind at ease that the star players are likely to have tested clean by both NHL and Olympic standards.
erskine has scored...now i can die in peace
You joke but a poster has already made that allegation about Green at Puck Daddy based upon a tweet from DGB. Unfortunately it will go viral. For the first time I’m thankful for the Olympics because of the rigorous testing they conduct.
by capsyoungguns on Mar 23, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Consider the source. Generally speaking, you can safely dismiss about 99.99% of everything said on a Yahoo! sports blog as uninformed BS.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Oh I agree with you. But I never underestimate the stupidity of people on the internet and their willingness to throw out accusations via the internet. I just hate the attention this is going to get.
by capsyoungguns on Mar 23, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Present company excluded of course. Stupidity is checked at the Japers’ gate.
by capsyoungguns on Mar 23, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Usually with a blindside headshot into the boards.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
by gotsparkly on Mar 23, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
probably left you feet blindsiding that poor schmuck, didn’t you?
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
Donate to the Rink Pledge Drive for SAVES FOR KIDS! Ain’t nothing [wrong] about giving $5 so a stranger’s premature baby can have the time on a respirator they need.~Gould Old Days
omg this is why Ovie plays dirty. he has roid rage.
GO FLYERS
by Brainumbc on Mar 23, 2010 5:08 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Not For Game? :)
Every time the Swedish Swashbuckler scores a goal, an angel gets its wings.
by SeattleCapsFan on Mar 23, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
good call!
Check out FFODC.COM and DCSportsPlus.blogspot.com!
by what Juneau about that? on Mar 23, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Man that John Kordic story has some legs, eh?
Driving under the influence of hockey since godknow's when.
by bigonetimer on Mar 23, 2010 5:13 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Anabolic ster-rec’d.
"I know I was the best CIA agent the CIA ever had, but I thought I told you honkies from the CIA that Black Dynamite was out of the game!"
by Bald Pollack on Mar 23, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
In all seriousness, though, this is not a good thing for the Capitals or for any team. People are very quick to jump to conclusions, and this is just giving them more ammunition.
I do think that a large number of professional athletes do some for of PEDs, but I don’t think it’s the superstars. Instead, it’s the guy who is struggling to stay up in the top league and not get released/sent down to the minors.
Someone like Ovechkin or Iginla or Crosby has no real incentive to do it (they’re already great players). It’s the guys like (and I’m not saying that these guys are doing anything) Erskine or Lang that I would suspect.
Again, I’m not saying that they or anyone is taking PEDs. But if you were a guy on the edge of getting sent down or being a healthy scratch more than not, wouldn’t they take the chance to help them?
That last paragraph didn’t really make sense. Let me try it again:
If you’re a guy who is always worried about being sent down to the minors or released or is being scratched with some regularity, would you try something that would keep you in the NHL?
I am a little troubled by your throwing out names of Caps players you might “suspect” in this situation. I don’t think it’s at all fair to them to do so with no basis in an ongoing investigation that purportedly is not targeting specific players. This kind of speculation can do real harm to innocent people (see Steve Hatfill and anthrax) and why would you want to do that? I don’t even want to know why you would suspect certain players because at this point it simply is unwarranted.
The snark comments I get, but I don’t understant casting suspicion on specific players because you think they have incentive or based on injuries they’ve had, as I saw somewhere else. If ever any specific player is named in any investigation like this, then speculation on motivation will run wild. Right now, it’s like drawing a name out of a hat to see who gets the darts thrown at them.
by Seminrocks on Mar 23, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
i agree, seminrocks. RCheli, i understand the point you’re making, but throwing out player names at this point in the investigation really doesn’t help anything/anyone.
by Natty Bumppo on Mar 23, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
It seems like RC is only doing is as a relatable way to illustrate the argument, rather than “suspecting” anyone of doing anything. Don’t break out the pitchforks yet.
"I know I was the best CIA agent the CIA ever had, but I thought I told you honkies from the CIA that Black Dynamite was out of the game!"
by Bald Pollack on Mar 23, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
right i made a point of not saying “suspecting” in my comment. but even to illustrate a valid point, i don’t think it helps to use names.
by Natty Bumppo on Mar 23, 2010 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s more for the more PG/non-avatarless than anything. Oh well, a to d.
"I know I was the best CIA agent the CIA ever had, but I thought I told you honkies from the CIA that Black Dynamite was out of the game!"
by Bald Pollack on Mar 23, 2010 8:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
it also helps just to get the idea out there early, before the guessing games begin in earnest.
by Natty Bumppo on Mar 23, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
In baseball, Clemens and Bond were already consider superstars before they started using.
Even atheists believe in Matt Wieters
True, but a) that was in a time when it wasn’t illegal (and I suspect a lot of players were doing it) and b) were in the decline phase of their career. Bonds didn’t (from all accounts) start until he was in his early 30s and saw all the hype surrounding McGuire and Sosa.
Now with more rigorous testing and more strict penalties, I don’t know if these guys would be doing it.
I think baseball is a different animal. From what I read, it seems like everyone basically uses PEDs, and everyone knows in the locker room. Hockey strikes me as cleaner, I guess since strength is useless unless you can skate and have good hands for puck control.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Capitals Coming: for Capitals fans no more intelligent than myself
by red army line on Mar 23, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
It may or may not be cleaner, I don’t know – but be careful making the assumption that steroids are only used to bulk guys up. There are different types, designed to make you heal faster or target muscles that would be used to, for example, skate faster and/or shoot harder. Consider how many cyclists have been caught doping, you know?
It’s an assumption I used to make too, believe me – just wanted to make sure we’re clear that the traditional model of the overly beefy, Schwarzenegger-type guy isn’t exactly what we’re looking for.
I guess I hadn’t thought about the shooting that much, but even with that, it needs to get on net every now and then.
I don’t play hockey nor do I skate often, so could someone elaborate: how much of hockey is about strength that could be helped by steroids? Skating, for example, always struck me as a matter of technique more than strength.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Capitals Coming: for Capitals fans no more intelligent than myself
by red army line on Mar 23, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Right. Some of it has to be skill – but I’m fairly certain (and someone with knowledge might have to back me up with this) that there are ways to enhance muscles now that don’t give athletes the bodybuilding look. I refer again to cyclists, who are uber-skinny.
In the case of skating, my guess is it would be more about speed.
What people have really talked about in regards to hockey, however, are the drugs that help reduce healing time after an injury. That’s especially key in the playoffs, when everyone’s playing hurt and – most importantly – there is no drug testing.
by Becca H on Mar 23, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I refer again to cyclists, who are uber-skinny.
Their torsos and arms are, but their legs look like pistons. I think that’s as much usage bias as anything. Players in different sports (all the way down to the positions, actually) have different characteristic muscle builds — you can identify a rugby build versus a baseball build, or a wrestler as opposed to soccer player.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Mar 23, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Nook Logan of the Nationals got busted for PED’s and he could barely hit a ball out of the infield. They work in many different ways, yes.
Check out FFODC.COM and DCSportsPlus.blogspot.com!
by what Juneau about that? on Mar 23, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
True. Hockey players have the shoulders, chest, thighs and…posterior. Their calves tend to be fairly skinny, and you won’t usually find a player who has the huge muscles some of the MLB guys have, for example.
I was really just generalizing – Lance Armstrong has never appeared to be exactly overloaded with muscles but he’s ridiculously cut and very strong. Just in different ways than football players, hockey players, etc.
Generalizing about PEDs based on physique is a bad idea. There are so many different kinds of PED, some of which have no effects on a user’s physique.
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
…which was my point. I was generalizing about cyclists’ body types, not the results you get from PEDs. My point was that you can’t look around the NHL, see an absence of muscle-bound goliaths and assume no one’s using drugs. I think so many of us have this idea of what a steroid user looks like and I was pointing out that it’s not so easy to tell.
I take your point, but we shouldn’t assume that PEDs somehow affect someone’s physique/body composition.
To use an example from cycling, you can’t detect an EPO user from physique or outward appearances until you see some previously decent cyclist suddenly leave his competitors in the dust up a tough climb (cough, RICARDO RICCO, cough). (For more on this, check out this link. It’s worth the 10 minutes for the read.)
The variety of drugs people are taking is insane. One US sprinter (Kelli White) ’fessed up to having used an anti-narcoleptic drug (modafinil) in order to help her focus at the start line.
This isn’t even a relatively new issue.
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
by D'ohboy on Mar 24, 2010 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+rec for a great read. Really sheds some insight into how EPO works, and gives the reader some insight into how it might impact a player’s performance.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Mar 24, 2010 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions
My wife is getting a Masters in Exercise Physiology….I’ll pluck her brain tonight but off the top of my head from conversations we have had in the past……It’s true that “traditional” muscle building steroids would be of little to no use to an NHL player based upon they type of work the muscles were doing. Cyclists and NHL players would be more likely to target methods/substances to increase the amount of O2 that the player could efficently use or carry in there blood such as Blood Doping(which is what helped to Kill Alexi Cheraponv)
If Popeye got stronger after eating canned Spinach....Imagine what canned Bacon could do for Ovie.......
Blood doping via blood loading is likely commonplace. If you do it right, there’s zero chance of being caught and zero risk.
President and sole member of the Erskine lobby.
Cyclists aren’t doing the same ‘roids as bodybuilders typically, they’re using EPO and variants thereof to increase their hematocrit levels (number of red blood cells).
Floyd Landis did get busted for T-rone, but he apparently used a patch on his scrotum in order to help recover from cracking the previous day.
There are many PEDs, it’s not all just ’roids and HGH.
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
It may or may not be cleaner, I don’t know – but be careful making the assumption that steroids are only used to bulk guys up. There are different types, designed to make you heal faster or target muscles that would be used to, for example, skate faster and/or shoot harder. Consider how many cyclists have been caught doping, you know?
Well, in general, cyclists who dope don’t take steroids. Lately most of the ones who’ve been caught during competiton have either blood doped or takne EPO. There have also been a couple of cases recently who have been caught with stuff like amphetamines, but that’s usually been out of competition.
by dogwelder on Mar 23, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
cyclysts don’t use any drugs, they draw blood weeks before hand and give themselves a transplant before the race. this increases their red blood cell count giving the muscles more oxygen available. its called blood doping.
Suspend Colin Campbell!
I trying to find a nice way to say this, but. . .
You are totally and completely wrong.
Really, if you can’t even bother to use Google to educate yourself, please don’t say things like this.
This is why PED discussions always suck.
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
Ok, I misstated that the don’t use drugs, it’s probably rampant. Don’t tell me I’m “totally and completely wrong” about blood doping.
Suspend Colin Campbell!
It's not 1986 anymore
I’m sorry, but you are totally and completely wrong. Nobody uses tranfusions anymore, unless they’re stupid or competing in a sport that doesn’t test for it. It’s too easy to get caught and there are easier, safer, more controllable and more effective means of boosting your hematocrit levels. When you hear about “blood doping” now, you’re hearing about erythropoietin (EPO) and its designer cousins like CERA.
Blood doping works because it artificially ups your concentration of red blood cells, otherwise known as your hematocrit level, thereby allowing your blood to hold more oxygen. The problem with it is that the effect is very short-lived. Your body quickly reabsorbs the red blood cells. This means you’ve got to blood dope right before a competition. The problem is, this is when you’re most likely to get tested.
Since anti-doping agencies realized they couldn’t test for an athlete’s own blood, they simply tested for hematocrit levels instead. The UCI and other agencies established a limit (50%, with some exceptions).
Coincidentally, in the late 80s, labs figured out how to use recombinant DNA to synthesize large quantities of EPO, a drug that boosted red blood cell counts and was originally intended to treat anemia. Almost immediately, people stopped blood doping and started using EPO to increase their concentration of red blood cells.
The result of all this was that, almost overnight, almost every cyclist in the pro peloton had a hematocrit level of around 50%. Coincidence? Hardly.
I don’t mean to sound harsh, but this is one of the reasons that I find these discussions so frustrating. People hear “steroids,” and “doping,” and they think Ben Johnson doing Winstrol, or McGwire getting someone to inject him in the ass, or guys doing autologous transfusions way back in the day. The problem is that doping is much larger in scale and much more diverse than most people understand.
Look, someone with a degree in biochemistry would probably come on here and laugh at my ridiculous attempts to understand and explain EPO, CERA and the like, but I also know that the competition between dopers and anti-doping agencies is so cut-throat that almost nobody outside of the doctors and labs on either side really understands what’s going on. The best we can do is pick through the evidence after the results come down.
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
by D'ohboy on Mar 24, 2010 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Apologies, a little late and I got a little defensive :-)
Thanks for the knowledge
Suspend Colin Campbell!
And I was likewise probably a little aggressive. This is one of those topics that sets me off, and I was likewise tired and under the influence of wine and too much allergy medication. I probably could have found a better/less aggro way of phrasing my original reply.
Anyhow, I appreciate that you didn’t take it personally. :)
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
I’m sorry but as someone who has followed professional cycling in Europe for approximately 20 years that you are the one who is not correct.
Blood doping and transfusions is very much the most prevalent performance enhancing method in professional cycling today, and it has been for at least the last 3-4 years. You need only look up the infamous Operation Puerto doping case, which involved blood banks for famous riders such as Ivan Basso, Oscar Sevilla, Jan Ullrich, Tyler Hamilton and Alejandro Valverde and countless others
EPO, while the go-to drug of the 90’s, is believed to hardly be used any more, mainly because modern science has caught up and is now able to detect it fairly easily from what I gather. The main alternative to blood doping is therefore CERA, which many riders thought was untraceable until Riccardo Ricco, Stefan Schumacher and Bernard Kohl were all caught in the 2008 Tour de France. Danilo di Luca was subsequently caught using the drug in the 2009 Giro.
As a result blood doping remains the most prevalent method in the peloton simply because of the inherent difficulty in its detection. Mind you, this is all stuff that has been up in the European press, so take that for what it is.
"In the depths of winter, I learned there was in me an invincible summer" ~Albert Camus
Did you actually read my post, or just the first sentence?
You:
The main alternative to blood doping is therefore CERA
Me:
When you hear about "blood doping" now, you’re hearing about erythropoietin (EPO) and its designer cousins like CERA.
There are a few jackasses in the peloton still using EPO. In fact, a pair of Polish brothers just got busted for EPO at the Cyclocross World Championships.
I didn’t bother going into the esoterica of Operación Puerto because this is a hockey blog. My point was simply that, to the best of my knowledge, almost nobody does autologous transfusions anymore because it’s way too easy to get taught on a hematocrit test. It’s far easier to jab yourself with a syringe of EPO or CERA. Tests exist for both, but they are far from perfect, and I’m willing to bet that some doctor somewhere has already found an alternative to CERA that the UCI and WADA don’t have a test for yet.
My larger point was that “doping” these days is far wider in scope and more myriad than most people understand, and that the competition between dopers and those trying to catch them is remarkably aggressive. The UCI only found out about CERA and figured out a test for it because a doctor narc’ed on the whole thing. Otherwise, guys like Ricco would have got away Scott-free.
If you’re interested in a good source of information about doping in cycling, check out this place.
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
There are still a few morons who use EPO, yes. I didn’t say no one was using it, simply that it no longer saw the same widespread use.
And I did indeed read your post. What I took exception to, is the argument you seemed to be making that blood transfusions had been replaced by actual drugs such as EPO and CERA and were no longer a part of professional cycling.
When you hear about "blood doping" now, you’re hearing about erythropoietin (EPO) and its designer cousins like CERA
This simply isn’t true, as Operation Puerto attests to. Blood doping in the form of transfusions is still very much a part of professional cycling. The hematocrit test is seen as circumstantial in some sources I’ve read, because the level can rise naturally, which is again why it is measured over a period of time to get a sense of the rider’s natural level. Some riders can get dispensation for naturally high levels, which raises the question whether those levels really are naturally high or the results have been manipulated through transfusions or drug use.
As for the larger point you’re making, I can only agree completely. Doping at an organised level is far more widespread in professional sports than we are led to believe. It is a major problem in most sports that are extremely physically strenous. Whether that is biathlon, athletics, cycling, weightlifting or what have you.
Cycling is the most fascinating case to me, because it is the only sport where the fight against doping is so public and often taken to absurd extremes. You are correct that there is an arms race of sorts between those using doping and the anti-doping agencies and that both sides keep stepping things up. Thankfully, I don’t think the use of performance enhancement in hockey is at such an organised level yet.
"In the depths of winter, I learned there was in me an invincible summer" ~Albert Camus
Some riders can get dispensation for naturally high levels, which raises the question whether those levels really are naturally high or the results have been manipulated through transfusions or drug use.
Me:
The UCI and other agencies established a limit (50%, with some exceptions).
I didn’t go into the details here, because this is a hockey blog. But yes, some guys get exceptions for naturally high levels (Jonathan Vaughters, the Directeur Sportif of Garmin/Transitions being one), and being dehydrated messes with the levels as well, requiring further testing.
Blood doping in the form of transfusions is still very much a part of professional cycling.
I pointed this out in the citations below. It’s still around, but it’s being used in conjunction with things like CERA and from all accounts, it’s far less prevalent because it’s:
A) more difficult to administer, and you can’t self-administer a blood transfusion; and
B) only a temporary fix.
This simply isn’t true, as Operation Puerto attests to.
Puerto started to go down in 2004. Since then, we’ve had the Humanplasma affair, but we’ve also had like half a kajillion guys test positive for EPO and CERA since then. You yourself named some of them (although you left out others, like Piepoli):
Riccardo Ricco, Stefan Schumacher and Bernard Kohl were all caught in the 2008 Tour de France. Danilo di Luca was subsequently caught using the drug in the 2009 Giro.
Note the dates: 2008, 2009. . .
I’ll also point out that most of the guys who were busted in Puerto were also using other drugs – Puerto wasn’t just about blood, it was far beyond that (as I’m sure you know, given what you’ve said so far). In fact, one of the arrests that kick-started Puerto was an arrest of a doctor. He was carrying a couple hundred bags of plasma, but over 1000 doses of anabolic steroids.
Now, I don’t want to go by a lack of positive tests for blood transfusions as evidence of its demise, because it could simply be that people have figured out how not to get caught. However, it would seem to me that if it were as widespread as you suggest, then more people would be talking about it, and more guys would be confessing to it. That just doesn’t seem to be the case though. It appears that using drugs, rather than transfusions, has become the preferred method to boost red blood cell counts.
As I tried to caveat several times, I’m not in the pro peloton and I’m not in NHL locker rooms or training facilities, so the only thing I have to go by is published reports about people who have been caught. For all we know, athletes could be huffing cat urine. We really have no idea. Which brings me back full circle to my original point, and it’s one that I think you agree with:
It’s useless to speculate. All we can do is read through the detritus these cases leave behind. As a cyclist and a cycling fan (for well over 20 years – I first got turned on watching LeMond and Hampsten back in the day), I fall back on a paraphrasing of President Reagan’s old adage about arms control:
Don’t trust, and verify.
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
Ass. Apparently, my post about the Humanplasma affair got lost. I’ve actually got to get some work done today, so I’ll just say this:
If you’re interested, go to VeloNews or CyclingNews and type Humanplasma into their search terms.
Short answer: yes, transfusions are still around, but they’re used in conjunction with other drugs and from all outward appearances, they are less commonplace than red blood-cell boosting drugs.
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
Heh, I think you are correct in that blood transfusions are probably accompanied by the use of various drugs today. I can only tell you that the last few years whenever a major cycling event has been televised here, the doping debate has focused on the use of transfusions, because these days it is indeed alledgedly more difficult to detect. And Puerto may indeed be old news now, but you would be surprised (or perhaps not) at how often it still rears its ugly head.
In relation to your note about the doctor caught with the 1000 doses of anabolic steroids at the onset of Puerto that does not necessarily pertain to cycling, as Fuentes himself stated that his services transcended cycling into other sports (noteably soccer and tennis I think). You may be right and steroid use may well be more prevalent than we are led to believe, I just keep hearing the opposite from other former riders.
I think I’ll just stop my line of argument here and simply concede that you may well be right. My main objection was to your apparent dismissal against the prevalence of blood transfusions in modern cycling, which runs contrary to everything I hear, whenever I tune in to a race. I am not a scientist, nor am I a professional rider part of the peloton. Like yourself, I can only go on what I read and hear.
"In the depths of winter, I learned there was in me an invincible summer" ~Albert Camus
I appreciate the back and forth,
I admitted in my reply to Snowburnt that I was perhaps overly dismissive and, upon further reflection, I should have revised my statement to read: transfusions, while still used, are part of broader programs including other PEDs. On this side of the pond, the emphasis of coverage on doping has been on EPO and its variants, so you and I may simply be reflecting the biases of the media outlets we’re exposed to.
Regarding Puerto, I think you’re right – they say “case closed,” but it was simply too vast to really every be fully uncovered. I bet the Humanplasma thing goes the same way.
I think that you may well be right – transfusions may be more popular than they seem, in part because people have figured out how not to get caught. After Festina in 1998 and Puerto in 2004-6 until 2008, people thought the EPO problem was getting better – then CERA blew up. I’m sure something else will get exposed in a couple of years.
There’s a much bigger discussion here about the relationship between sports fans and the athletes that entertain us, but I guess I was just trying to relate to people who are unfamiliar with doping the breadth and depth of doping and how it goes so far beyond “steroids = big muscles” that we really shouldn’t bother to speculate, since the whole thing is almost impossible to truly grasp unless you’re inside it.
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
I now know far more than I ever needed to know about doping from reading the back and forth between you two.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Mar 25, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Cyclists generally don’t take steroids. Floyd Landis was one of the few, as I recall. They use various means such as blood transfusions (which is the latest fad), EPO, CERA etc. to increase the number of white blood cells in their bloodstream and thus their endurance, since in the epic stage races such as the Tour de France endurance is pretty much everything. That’s why the typical drug test in professional cycling is done by measuring the number of white blood cells in a blood test. Steroids are generally not perceived to be helpful in increasing performance in the cycling field and are too easily detected.
That said, I too would be very careful in pronouncing hockey clean. If I were to venture a guess, it would probably be that the level of drug use in hockey is about on par with that of international soccer. It’s not very wide-spread but it’s there and it’s generally kept out of the public eye.
"In the depths of winter, I learned there was in me an invincible summer" ~Albert Camus
blood transfusions (which is the latest fad)
I don’t know where you’re getting your information from, but blood transfusions declined massively in popularity in the late 1980s with the advent of in-competition hematocrit testing and the introduction of EPO and variants thereof. I must admit that I’m not in the peloton, so I have no way of verifying this, but it seems as though transfusions have largely left the doping scene. If you’ve got evidence to the contrary, I’d love to see it.
Cyclists generally don’t take steroids. Floyd Landis was one of the few, as I recall.
I thought this too, until the whole Landis thing blew up. In the aftermath, it turned out that using testosterone patches to aid recovery after a long stage was actually not uncommon.
Steroids are generally not perceived to be helpful in increasing performance in the cycling field and are too easily detected.
Not all cyclists are skinny little wraiths like the Schleck brothers. In road cycling, the use of testosterone to increase muscular strength would be a huge boon to the sprinters, who need bursts of incredible speed over short distances. In track cycling, competitors in almost every discipline would benefit from increased muscular strength. For example, check out the legs on the guy on the left in this photo. (As a disclaimer, this is in no way to suggest that the guy in the photo is guilty of doping, only to point out that his muscular build could theoretically have benefited from the use of anabolic steroids.)
If I were to venture a guess, it would probably be that the level of drug use in hockey is about on par with that of international soccer. It’s not very wide-spread but it’s there and it’s generally kept out of the public eye.
Why would you venture this guess? What prompts you to use international soccer as your analogue? What evidence do you have that supports this view? I stand by this earlier comment:
almost nobody outside of the doctors and labs on either side really understands what’s going on. The best we can do is pick through the evidence after the results come down.
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
It’s true that blood transfusions declined in the mid-to late 80’s and by most accounts all but disappeared throughout the 90’s in favour of EPO. However, they began to see increased use again in the new millenia. How else do you explain the expansive blood banks of Puerto? Nearly all I heard about in terms of doping in cycling when the case broke and the following years was blood doping through transfusion. Riders such as Ivan Basso had an expansive bank of their own blood to draw from. It (and its possible detection) was a huge deal in the European press. It still comes up in the media here at every Tour de France.
My perception that steroid use is not wide-spread in cycling is merely my perception based on what I have heard and read. It’s certainly true that not all cyclists are skinny little wraiths, but it is also true that you need an absolutely optimal distribution of weight for performance. Obviously this is especially true in regards to mountain stages. I’m not sure steroids reliably offer that. I personally haven’t seen very many succesful “big” cyclists with Norwegian Thor Hushovd as the only exception that springs to mind. Of course, when I talk about “professional cycling” it is mainly road cycling, which is the area I have followed.
As for why I would venture a guess, it is simply for the sake of argument. My choice of soccer as an analogue is mostly because it is a team sport, which seems to offer the same benefits in performance enhancement (speed, endurance, strength) and thus would be likely to share the same drugs and enhancement methods as hockey, if there were any. Though contrary to hockey, peformance enhancement has been publicized in soccer. Of course, it is merely a speculated guess. It can be little more at this point. You may be right that speculation is pointless (and perhaps even damaging at one point), but that is nevertheless my perception from my own point of view. One could even be as basic as to call it a “gut feeling”. You are certainly free to find it wholly unwarrantable, which it may be.
You also have a great point that this is indeed a hockey blog. We may have veered off topic here. So I shall immediately halt my speculation and simply concede to your larger points with which I wholly agree. One may fear the worst, but currently there is precious little evidence for anything but conjecture. Let us hope it stays that way.
"In the depths of winter, I learned there was in me an invincible summer" ~Albert Camus
strength is useless unless you can skate and have good hands for puck control.
’Roids are used just as frequently to speed recovery time of muscles as it is to add muscle mass. ’Roids would absolutely be beneficial to hockey players.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Seriously. If I can recover faster, I can train harder (whether its lifting for maximum weight, or training to achieve maximum speed). Skating in particular is a combination of form, strength, and endurance. You don’t need perfect form if you can dope to increase your strength and endurance.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Mar 23, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s a question of cost-benefit, really. What are their odds of getting caught, how much do they benefit?
The difference between being an NHL regular and an AHL-lifer is millions of dollars over the course of the career, to say nothing of the fame and prestige. I don’t buy that, given the difference in benefit and lack of enforcement, all the players are clean. I’d love it if they were, but I just don’t see it.
Think about the difference in just advertising revenue between a second tier guy like Cammalleri and a guy like Iginla. I’m not saying that ‘roids could push Cammo into Iggy territory, but the difference between players at the highest levels of any sport is so small. Let’s say that the difference is being a very good NHL regular and a potential Hall-of-Famer, I think some guys take that shot.
That’s why I’m never surprised when I hear about PEDs in sports. Saddened, hurt, disappointed, but surprised? Nah.
I desperately hope none of the Caps are on steroids, but if some of them are, no shock here.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Mar 23, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate the timing of it all—right around playoff time. Or is it really about baseball and the season getting underway.
It’s a conspiracy to screw with the Nats chances to make the playoffs.
Even atheists believe in Matt Wieters
by wickedwitch on Mar 23, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL—Back last May I thought it was just an accusation thrown out there because the Caps had name recognition. Now it looks like it’s local chiropractor had some Caps names in his rolodex and used the Caps as bragging rights. Just blech about the whole thing!
Again thank goodness for the extra testing our stars went through quite recently.
by capsyoungguns on Mar 23, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sure a lot of you are more well-read in the law talkin’ than I, but this smells pretty open and shut to me. I read Tarik’s post on it and folded my hands behind my head like the smuggest of brohammers. Now I come here and I find consternation. Please to tell me of your fears!
Mostly it’s about being tired of the negative press and the haters. Seems like a week can’t go by without some nonsense popping up.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
by gotsparkly on Mar 23, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think most of us view this as likely being a non-story (at least after the clarifications were made that there was no “raid,” etc.) but I can’t help but be a little nervous if anyone thought it was a strong enough link to take a poke around. I just care so much about this team and would be really disappointed if any current Cap were on PEDs, especially since the NHL has managed to avoid much scandal on that front.
Anyway, time will tell if there’s any real smoke and/or fire.
My sources tell me that the package was initially sent to the Nationals first and the Capitals second so Zimmerman, Soriano, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Green and Semin could partake. Before it could get to anyone to use, Ray King and Dmitri Young mistook the box of steroids as a box of cheeseburgers and ate them. All.
Ray King and Dmitri Young are out of baseball now. Hmmmmm I wonder why?!?
Check out FFODC.COM and DCSportsPlus.blogspot.com!
by what Juneau about that? on Mar 23, 2010 5:46 PM EDT reply actions
The window for athlete testing in the NHL is closing – no more random testing once the playoffs start. I don’t think that’s why the arrest was made and investigation at Kettler began today, but … never say never. Per the team statement, the players have gone through two rounds of random tests, and they can be subject to up to three in the regular season.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/2009-04-23-drug-testing_N.htm
Now helping to keep an eye on all things Gr8 at Alex Ovetjkin.
Here’s my non-conspiracy-everything’s-fine theory:
Dude in Tampa dealt ‘roids. He was hooked up with the guy in Reston and new the guy in Reston was a Dr. who treated some Caps (and Nats?). The Caps/Nats link is the “hook” in the case, so the dude in Tampa cuts a deal and gives up the guy in Reston. They investigate the guy in Reston, and part of that includes talking to his clients to see what they know. That includes talking to legit clients, and that’s where the Caps come in. “Did Dr. Nagel ever offer you anything to help your recovery time?” and whatnot.
The Caps “are not the target of this investigation, and there is no evidence that steroids were provided to any Capitals players.” But some of them may have some info on a guy who is a target of the investigation, and so they talk to the relevant players.
When you hear hoofbeats, think horses and not zebras. There’s no reason to think otherwise right now.
At least that’s what I’m telling myself.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
sadly most people are going to go with the “Where there is smoke, there is a fire” mentality I think.
Ovechking...
resident master jinxer
And most people are, for lack of a better term, fucking stupid.
Really, there’s no smoke here (yet). Not even an ember.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Mar 23, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
i humbly disagree. most of the baseball cases have started with something minor, and it’s always the dealers that are investigated by the feds (not the users), so nate’s statement doesn’t make me feel more comfortable about the situation.
by Natty Bumppo on Mar 23, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, J.P., but as a cycling fan and a guy who has observed PED use firsthand, I’m cynical as hell when it comes to this stuff. I’m essentially at the point where I believe that virtually all elite athletes are on PEDs until proven otherwise.
I’m not saying “where there’s smoke there’s fire,” I’m just saying that I’ve been burned many times before.
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
This. I wish I could be credulous but it doesn’t add up. What are the odds that a chiropractor who treats players also happens to be dealing PEDs? What pro teams even use a chiropracter, given that they are essentially quacks? And if a chiropractor is dealing PEDs, and happens to have pro athletes as clients, what are the odds that the clients who used PEDs are not the pro athletes?
by Ginga on Mar 24, 2010 2:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
because not all chiropractors are quacks.
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
Donate to the Rink Pledge Drive for SAVES FOR KIDS! Ain’t nothing [wrong] about giving $5 so a stranger’s premature baby can have the time on a respirator they need.~Gould Old Days
Just on the issue of what pro teams use a chiropractor, in keeping to the NHL, Dallas, Vancouver, and Philly all list chiropractors as part of their team medical staff either on their website or in their media guide. It is possible that other teams have a chiropractor listed in another part of their site or have an affiliation with an off-site chiropractor, but those were the three I came across during my (admittedly) cursory search. If expanding to teams beyond the NHL, I think it the use of a chiropractor becomes more widespread, particularly in the NFL.
i wonder how often steroids dealers have legit clients, though. i’m thinking of guys like greg anderson, whose career as a personal trainer was really a load of crock, but granted him some veneer of credibility. if the “chiropractor” was really dealing, i suspect he wouldn’t bother with players that wanted massages.
by Natty Bumppo on Mar 23, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know about that. Why couldn’t he have legit clients and then some for whom he gave a little extra?
Example:
Doc: “Normal recovery for something like this is around a month or so.”
Client X: “Damn.”
Doc: “You know, I can give you something to help that back heal a bit quicker.”
Client X then has a choice to make.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
sure he could. but if he’s a respected chiropractor with professional athlete clients, why not stay above-the-board? i can’t give too much benefit of the doubt to a guy that’s (allegedly) in business with a florida steroids dealer.
by Natty Bumppo on Mar 23, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
sure he could. but if he’s a respected chiropractor with professional athlete clients, why not stay above-the-board?
You are expecting people to always make rational/logical decisions. Human beings don’t always do that. I’d provide examples of people who don’t always make smart decisions, but a list of the entire human race would take too long to type.
I’d add my statement also is a reply to the other comments I’ve seen about who would or would not take performance enhancing drugs.
"You ever use smelling salts, every time you type a bad blog?" Brooks Laich
you jeopardize your career if you begin screwing around with illegal supplements, is all i’m saying (referring to nagel). if the feds are investigating you, that’s smoke. the profile of the dealers that have emerged in baseball isn’t that of a respected professional that dabbles in ’roids…anderson, radomski, mcnamee had jobs because of their steroid connections, not because they were great trainers willing to help a guy out in a bind every now and then.
by Natty Bumppo on Mar 23, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Certainly there are plenty of people who would make a smart decision or not get involved, but just to assume someone wouldn’t just because of the potential negative consequences is somewhat naive.
"You ever use smelling salts, every time you type a bad blog?" Brooks Laich
so you’re talking about nagel here? how do you simply “get involved” in steroids? i think it’s equally naive to begin with the assumption that he’s a legit chiropractor who offers legit services.
by Natty Bumppo on Mar 23, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
i should say, in this instance i believe there’s a difference between a user and a dealer. no, i don’t for a second presume that an athlete wouldn’t accept drugs to get him/her over the hump, at a time of personal weakness, etc., etc…long-term financial/health consequences be damned. this much we’ve seen in baseball. but to go about creating a business of steroids dealing, going through back channels to acquire large amounts of the substances, going through back channels to acquire clients, and eventually putting yourself in jeopardy of a federal investigation…i’d imagine that would take a lot more long-term planning. along with knowledge of the baseball dealers and their MOs, i’m having a hard time imagining someone as a dealer only on the side, or only in certain rare circumstances.
by Natty Bumppo on Mar 23, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not assuming he’s legit or not. I don’t get how a doctor is any different than an athlete in your scenario.
I’m saying that assuming people make decisions using rational thought all of the time just simply isn’t true. Why would Nate Newton, a pro athlete making millions of dollars, be involved in drug smuggling? Why would Martha Stewart get anywhere near insider trading? Why do people engage in extramarital affairs?
Greed, addiction, lust, etc.
"You ever use smelling salts, every time you type a bad blog?" Brooks Laich
Let’s also take your analysis, which was really good, a step further. Originally, when the clown in Tampa was nabbed, he said his clients were the Caps and the Nats. We now know that wasn’t the case, so we’ve established that the guy in Tampa is a dealer and a liar. Now we got the “doc” in Reston who is most certainly using and dealing ( given the amount of drugs he acquired). He also said his clients were the Caps, which is very loosely true, but he also said he was the Caps team chiropractor, which we now know to be totally false. So, we’ve established that he’s a liar as well. What we also know is he’s an avid body builder who competes. We also know that the sport of professional body building is riddled with roid use. So you’ve got a doctor with illegal steroids regularly consorting with body builders. Connect the dots. Who do you think he’s dealing to? Pro hockey players with millions to lose who are regularly tested and play in a sport where steroids are of marginal use? Or body builders whose existence revolves around bigger and bigger muscles? Like you said, when you hear hoofbeats think horses not zebras.
by b.orr4 on Mar 23, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Very logical. The “Tampa Dealer” and “Reston Doc” don’t have much credibility.
Also, with the NHL’s drug testing 3 x season, isn’t it random? So cycling on and off wouldn’t work. The players’ wouldn’t be able to foresee when they would be tested. Add in the additional Olympic testing for a core group of players, capped with the fact that the police were asking questions at the beginning and through the season and the Caps Management and NHL League were conducting their own inquiries, it just seems unlikely to me that any of the players would be messing with the stuff during this season. There are too many risks of getting “caught” both professionally and legally. Just doesn’t make sense to me.
I think that perhaps the whole incident really was about asking more questions because of the “link” with the doc in Reston. That’s what the police do—investigate leads.
Personally, I just hate the whole story. If nothing else, it’s a disruption to the guys when they are preparing for the playoffs. And I always loved the fact that the NHL seemed to be free of the taint of drugs. May it remain this way.
Quick, is this wacky Tampa cop another relocated Pittsburgher who is still a Pens fan! (Just kidding of course—tho’ he does sound like a uncontrollable, eccentric cop).
by capsyoungguns on Mar 23, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Look...
Steroids are not going to make you Ovechkin. In hockey, skill is what you need to play, rather than physical strength (not that strength isn’t important, because it is).
Call me naive, but I think hockey is clean for the most part and we should be proud to be fans of this amazing game.
Here's to all us girls who love hockey...and the men who play it.
by Brad_Richards_Rocks on Mar 23, 2010 6:52 PM EDT reply actions
Again, there are more benefits to taking steroids than adding muscle mass and strength. To think that hockey players would not benefit from taking some forms of PEDs isn’t naive, but a little misinformed.
That said, I think that the League’s testing policies are sufficient to prevent use becoming epidemic, so that may make me naive as well.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Dr. Douglas Owen Nagel, a Virginia chiropractor who was arrested today, is not affiliated with the Washington Capitals and is not the “team chiropractor,” as he has stated.
If he’s misrepresented himself as having a team affiliation — I hope there are some consequences. The Caps shouldn’t take kindly to having the team name or trademark used without permission.
He probably has offices in Albany and Trenton. They must have forgotten the comma. It should read Chiropractor, Washington, Capitals.
/Snark.
Could be a carefully worded statement by the Caps. Its possible he was the “team chiropractor” to, oh say, last May…
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Mar 23, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
That would be a no. There is not even in “team chiropractor” listed in the official media guide from 2006-07 season to the present.
by Gin and Tonic on Mar 23, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
next they’ll have a team witchdoctor and herbalist
Suspend Colin Campbell!
by snowburnt on Mar 23, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Affidavit link:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/28802494/Douglas-Nagel-Affidavit
Winterion Game Studios
Visit us online at : http://winterion.com
Can I just, goddamnit!!!!! Did we really need this during the Caps’ best season ever? Seriously? Urgh.
3 Capitals were named in the Post tonight as beng interviewed
individuals with direct knowledge of the investigation said on condition of anonymity. Forwards Matt Bradley and Eric Fehr and defenseman Shaone Morrisonn were interviewed
Sounds pretty routine, but severely unfortunate… anyone ever have a back problem? When mine goes out, I call my Mom to get me under the counter steroid treatment……
"Here lies David St. Hubbins... and why not?"
...David St. Hubbins from the movie "This Is Spinal Tap"
don’t read too much into it. I can recall injuries to two of the three (and am probably just forgetting an injury to the third) that would benefit from at least a consult with a chiro.
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
Donate to the Rink Pledge Drive for SAVES FOR KIDS! Ain’t nothing [wrong] about giving $5 so a stranger’s premature baby can have the time on a respirator they need.~Gould Old Days
Steroids and Hockey
Steroids would benefit hockey players just like any other athletes. They help with recovery and the development of muscle mass (i’m no expert just repeated what i’ve read/heard). in fact, i would bet that hockey players could benefit the most from anabolic steriods. they play a very compressed schedule and a very very demanding physical sport. they also play a sport where covering up injuries is commonplace and staying on the ice is key. having something which would aid in the recovery of your muscles would seem to me to be very enticing.
however, much of the charm of hockey players is that they seem to be the type of atheletes who would be least likely to take short cuts or cheat by taking steroids or HGH. i personally believe that steroids are not a big issue in the NHL. however, i’m not in an NHL locker room and i dont hang out with NHL players during the off season. so who really knows.
its not a stretch however, to consider that a guy making $75K and riding a bus all night in the minors might be enticed to take such short cuts if it meant a three year guaranteed contract for NHL minimum, chartered planes, nice hotel rooms…etc.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
jesus christ, anyone else see this crap on from The Rink? Nice smear job in the post title here, and then Mike Chen does a good job demonstrating why I visit that site far less since Mirtle left.
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
Donate to the Rink Pledge Drive for SAVES FOR KIDS! Ain’t nothing [wrong] about giving $5 so a stranger’s premature baby can have the time on a respirator they need.~Gould Old Days
Yeah, its been pretty bad since mirtle left, but that is about the worst I’ve seen.
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → b a (select) start
Judd said officials from Major League Baseball and the National Football League have been very cooperative, but didn’t say the same of the National Hockey League.
"The NHL’s stance was that nobody there did anything wrong and since there aren’t any charges, they didn’t want to work with us," Judd said. "They are not being as cooperative as we would have liked."
NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said the league’s investigation showed "no evidence that Dr. Nagel ever supplied (or even offered to supply) performance enhancing drugs to any current or past member of the Washington Capitals."
In other words, the NHL is satisfied with their investigation, and the Florida sheriff is disappointed that the NHL isn’t doing all he would like. How did we get from there to the headline in the article?
Thanks all, for the heads up on the reliability of The Rink…
Anyone else think that Smitty would have been fired back when this first came out if there were any truth to it—or if he knew that the doctor had steroids?
The only thing that this makes me think about is how bad my back hurts and that I really need to see a chiropractor.
Поклон перед вашим капитаном!
by Knubles and Bits on Mar 23, 2010 10:28 PM EDT reply actions
A Suggestion
J.P. et al.,
I humbly suggest creating one open thread to discuss this issue, then banning discussion of it from the rest of the site. My experience of similar discussions on baseball and cycling blogs is that it leads nowhere worthwhile. These conversations consistently devolve into rumors, innuendo and uneducated discussions of a topic that very few people (myself included) know anything about.
Anyhow, that’s just my two cents. I’m also under the influence of a 40 mile ride and a bottle of wine. So take that for what it’s worth.
V/R,
D’oh
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
by D'ohboy on Mar 23, 2010 10:28 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
I’d like to say I think this sounds like a good idea. At least as an attempt to corral the discussion and the hordes of know-it-alls that aren’t regulars who will undoubtedly descend upon on little internet home and engage in a whole lot of “rumors, innuendo and uneducated discussions” that only further prove how little they actually know about the subject, and smear the team in the process.
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
Donate to the Rink Pledge Drive for SAVES FOR KIDS! Ain’t nothing [wrong] about giving $5 so a stranger’s premature baby can have the time on a respirator they need.~Gould Old Days
I agree. Last week’s Ovi-Campbell stuff was bad enough (at least IMO). I can imagine this subject could be never ending and work its way into all kinds of discussions.
"You ever use smelling salts, every time you type a bad blog?" Brooks Laich
by Carl Putnam on Mar 23, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
If you think last week was bad (and I wholeheartedly agree), you have no idea how completely absurd a dicussion of PEDs will get.
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
and if you want a look at where it’s starting, be sure to check out the post at From the Rink 9that I linked above) that somehow manages to drag Ovie and Bruce through the mud and equate creatine usage in high schoolers to a rampant steroid problem in hockey. Among other things.
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
Donate to the Rink Pledge Drive for SAVES FOR KIDS! Ain’t nothing [wrong] about giving $5 so a stranger’s premature baby can have the time on a respirator they need.~Gould Old Days
I just left them a little message. . . I can’t believe they actually posted something from a guy who used to operate the Zamboni who observed midget hockey players doing creatine and equated it to PEDs in the NHL.
Seriously, this is further evidence of just how idiotic these discussions can get.
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
Yeah, that’s pretty much been my experience from various cycling debates as well. The whole thing very quickly devolves into “The way Armstrong won the Tour, he has to be on something!” and “Cavendish was so good today, there’s no way he’s clean!” posted everywhere…
"In the depths of winter, I learned there was in me an invincible summer" ~Albert Camus
Well, take it upon yourselves (everyone) to direct any discussion on this issue to this thread. Does that work?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Bettman fixes games for the penguins to win and Ovechkin does steroids. End of story, LOL
~~~ R0cK D@ R3D ~~~
by Chaz-Capapalooza on Mar 24, 2010 12:48 AM EDT reply actions
My thoughts on the PED thing
One, PEDs benefit any athlete in any sport. Including hockey. Better strength, stamina and recovery time help you excel in sports, period.
Two, I firmly believe that every team in the NHL has at least one player on the roster that has or is using PEDs. Including the Capitals. The margin between a productive NHL career and a toilsome AHL grind is as thin as a fingernail, and the financial gulf is so enormous for guys that have put all their eggs in one basket, that some guys are going to go for the extra boost.
Three, my experience with baseball leads me to believe that where there are whispers there are users. It ain’t fair, but it’s been the consistent pattern there. So I suspect that someone on the Caps will surface as having gotten PEDs from one of the characters involved here. No, I have no proof. Yes, the connection is entirely tenuous at this juncture. But based on past experience, it’s what I expect to happen.
Four, I don’t for a second believe it’s given the Caps an extra or unfair advantage. There are enough people doing it that it levels the playing field. I care more about PED use in baseball than in hockey. Why? One of the joys of baseball is the comparison of stats across generations, which is possible because the game is basically the same now as it was in 1900. Sure, there have been advances in glove technology, and better fielding surfaces, and the development of specialty relievers, lighter bats, etc. But the limits of the human body have remained basically the same, which allows us to look at, say, Ty Cobb’s production and compare it with, say, Albert Pujols, and reach some conclusions. Hockey has changed so much across eras – officiating, rule changes, equipment – that the same comparisons are much harder.
Sorry for the screed.
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
Further to your point, the National Post wrote a reasonable article. Here’s the lede:
Every steroid scandal begins with a crack in the dam. A dealer who kept records – or in the occasional strange case, DNA – and who, after being arrested, looks to cut a deal. A middleman with a big mouth. A laboratory with schedules and names written down. In the rarest cases, at least in professional sports, a positive test.
But it always starts somewhere. And that’s how you get the 2003 Carolina Panthers, or Barry Bonds and Marion Jones, or Roger Clemens. That’s how performance-enhancing drugs leech to the surface, most of the time. Sometimes, it’s a ripple. Sometimes, it’s a splash.
Well, we don’t know what, if anything, will come out of the fact that police visited the practice facility of the Washington Capitals Tuesday in connection to the arrest of a steroid distributor in Lakeland, Fla. last year, and the arrest Tuesday of a chiropractor named Douglas Nagel in Virginia.
It might be smoke without any fire. No Capitals are currently targets of the investigation. As far as the National Hockey League is concerned, it might be hot air, empty noise, nothing much at all.
Now helping to keep an eye on all things Gr8 at Alex Ovetjkin.
One of the joys of baseball is the comparison of stats across generations, which is possible because the game is basically the same now as it was in 1900.
Not to entirely dispute what you’re saying, but this article from the SI Vaults points out that PEDs aren’t exactly a new issue. Stories from ancient Greece suggest that early Olympians used to consume raw bull testicles before competitions in an early form of testosterone doping…
Who’s to say if the old home run/hit/RBI records exist if players from earlier eras weren’t jacked up on amphetamines?
There's a fine line between arrogance and ignorance and only I manage to erase that line.
Beyond that, what is the difference between performance enhancing and performance enabling? Witness Curt Schilling and the legendary bloody sock. The guy said he was so doped up he couldn’t remember much of what happened. Without those pain killers his performance wouldn’t have happened, so it was by definition enhanced by the drugs. I personally see no difference between that and steroids, blood doping, epo, sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber, etc, yet for so many that is considered a legendary performance.
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