Wacky Trade Ideas
by red army line on Feb 20, 2010 12:39 PM EST
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PrintJust to see what I could come up with, I tried to think of extremely unlikely yet marginally plausible trade scenarios pre-deadline. Feel free to add your own in the comments.
Note: George McPhee, please don't take these ideas too seriously.
1) Washington sends Tomas Fleischmann, Mike Green, and Shaone Morrisonn to the New York Rangers for Ryan Callahan, Wade Redden, Marc Staal, and Brandon Dubinsky.
I figure that Redden may flourish like he did in Ottawa with a high-powered, as opposed to anemic, offense. If he doesn't work out Staal is a great young defensive defenseman. Plus, I wanted to make a trade for Callahan and Dubinsky.
2) Washington sends Alex Ovechkin, Jose Theodore, Mathieu Perrault, and Shaone Morrisonn to Detroit for Henrik Zetterberg, Nicklas Lidstrom, and Chris Osgood.
What? Trade Ovechkin? Well, Zetterberg is an elite pivot, and Lidstrom and Osgood would be great for competing for the Cup this season. Detroit gets back a replacement skill center, a young defenseman, and that guy who's been playing well for the Caps since he got "called up" from Russia. Balancing money in this one was tough.
3) Washington sends Alex Ovechkin, Semyon Varlamov, and Chris Bourque to the Pittsburgh Penguins for Evgeni Malkin, Marc-Andre Fleury, and Mike Rupp.
Pens nation can quit clamoring for a winger for Crosby, Bourque continues his fun round trip, and Mike Rupp was a Cup-winning Devil, and still has a cool name. We gladly take on "the worst puck handler in the history of hockey" (as I sometimes see him called) in exchange for "the Iron Curtain."
4) Washington sends Michael Nylander to Omsk for Jaromir Jagr
I don't know if this is legal, but I thought it would be pretty cool, just as long as Jagr's salary is renegotiated down. A lot.
5) Washington sends Alexander Semin, Brian Pothier, Karl Alzner, and Jose Theodore to Toronto for J.S. Giguere, Dion Phaneuf, and Luke Schenn.
I figure Semin and Pothier are Burke-type players, Theodore is the "bad contract" Burke said he'd be willing to take on with the prospect as Alzner. In return, the Caps' blueline gets better and the goaltending situation becomes dependable and clutch all the time. Mostly.
6) Washington sends Alex Ovechkin to the Pittsburgh Penguins for Sidney Crosby and Mike Rupp.
Oh, the irony. And Ovechkin and Mike Rupp are getting their names tossed around quite a bit. I think Eklund will have a rumor up within 24 hours...
7) Washington sends everyone on its roster save Nicklas Backstrom and Mike Knuble to the Los Angeles Kings for everyone on its roster save Ryan Smyth.
I figure having a Slovenian in Anze Kopitar on the Caps would get a friend of mine into hockey, and I've never come across a rule forbidding such a trade.
8) Washington sends Craig Laughlin to the Chicago Blackhawks for Eddie Olczyk, then sends Joe Beninati to the New Jersey Devils for Mike Emrick.
For the good of hockey fans all around. NBC, Chicago, and New Jersey tack on great announcers, and for what it's worth, "Doc and Edzo" aren't half bad, especially when they call their local network games. I'm not quite sure what the salary cap implications are, though.
9) Washington sends Matt Bradley and Karl Alzner to San Jose, San Jose sends Dany Heatley and a 2nd-round pick to Minnesota, Minnesota sends Cal Clutterbuck and Mikko Koivu to Washington. Minnesota also sends Martin Havlat to San Jose, and Washington sends Alexander Semin to Minnesota.
Brads' blood all over the ice should keep the Sharks in the Shark Tank, while the Caps get the guy with the coolest name ever and a great two-way forward. Minnesota also gets some help on offense and San Jose gets a guy who was clutch for the Hawks in the 2009 postseason.
10) Washington sends On Frozen Blog to Toronto for Down Goes Brown and Pension Plan Puppets.
OFB does a great job getting to where others can't. The Caps blogs I think could use some more humor like at DGB and PPP. No offense, Japers' Rink.
11) Washington sends Mike Green, Karl Alzner, Brian Pothier, and Semyon Varlamov to Nashville for Dan Hamhuis, Shea Weber, and Ryan Suter.
Nashville gets their next goalie and finally a couple of guys to step in where Timonen and Zidlicky left as puck-moving passing defensemen (better than Weber is right now, I think) while Washington gets a solid group of defensemen with which to build a dynasty. Something also tells me Mike Green would love that city of music. Win-win-win-win-win-win-win-win-win here. (Added 1:30pm, 2-20-2010)
That's all for now. If you come up with a really nice one in the near future I'll put it up and credit you. (Duh, it'll go green. Edit: 1:30 pm, 2-20-2010).
If this FanPost is written by someone other than one of the blog's editors, the opinions expressed in it do not necessarily reflect those of this blog or SB Nation.
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The funny thing is I’d love to see Koivu and Clutterbuck in a Caps uniform. Just don’t know that Semin is the price I’m willing to pay.
I really wonder what Koivu could do in a “free” offensive system given talented linemates. I think he’d be a 80-90 point type player, perennially.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 20, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think he’ll be hampered too much by that system. He’s a good enough player that he should be getting 70 ish points in any system.
Deutschland - das ist alles.
by Whiter Mage on Feb 21, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
He’s playing that way with Finland and they’re tearing it up.
~~~ R0cK D@ R3D ~~~
by Chaz-Capapalooza on Feb 21, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
I would sacrifice semin for koivu and clutterbuck, but that’s just me…(anyone else notice that clutterbuck kicks out butts when we play minnesota?)
~~~ R0cK D@ R3D ~~~
by Chaz-Capapalooza on Feb 21, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
Out of all of those, this is the only one I like.
10) Washington sends On Frozen Blog to Toronto for Down Goes Brown and Pension Plan Puppets.
Lobbies: Green, Carlson, Orlov
The Caps have a lot of good blogs though, so we can afford to overpay a little. How about adding Peerless to the deal?
Lobbies: Green, Carlson, Orlov
Guh! Now neither city would be willing to agree to the deal.
by sixsevenfiftysix on Feb 20, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
I know. I like DGB & PPP but we’d be overpaying a lot! If we were trading players, Peerless would be like the equivalent of Backstrom in my opinion.
Lobbies: Green, Carlson, Orlov
Or A View From the Cheap Seats? An old veteran who’s gone around a bit. Knows how to win. Or is there another blog in the system somewhere?
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 20, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
Aside from the fact that Becca writes here now, her 2nd favorite team is the Habs. Pretty sure she’d never agree to a trade to Toronto.
And they take her cap hit. Win-win.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 21, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
(Since she’s over 35…maybe? Don’t attack me)
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 21, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
That’s a complete rip off. It’s like trading a third line player for two top line players.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Ok, we’ll throw in Tara Wheeler.
Game-Over Green? Canada-Over Carlson!
by Scott in Shaw on Feb 23, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
Most of these would make me livid as a Caps fan (I had to fight the urge to stop reading when I saw Wade Redden going to the Caps). Number 5 wouldn’t piss me off too much. Number 11 is also one I’d accept but it would never happen. The three team trade is just too much going on and I think you lost track of something. MIN getting Heater, Semin, and a second for Koivu and Clutterbuck is a steal.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Admittedly, I like Koivu a lot, and Minny also sends off Havlat. I couldn’t imagine being a GM and trying to figure out a possible 3-team deal, seems like there’s so much going on.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 21, 2010 1:52 AM EST up reply actions
how about this one:
To Ottawa: The Hershey Bears
To Wash: Volchenkov, Spezza, Alfredson and 1 Millllllion dollars
Not enough cap room, but good try.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 21, 2010 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
We’d be giving away the farm on that one — literally.
Rocking the Red since 1975
by CapsFan75 on Feb 21, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
EYYY!!!
Rec for you!
Bah-Ram-Ewe, Ovechkin will wreck you. Fear the Furious Fleece!
by kingzman264 on Feb 21, 2010 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
To Toronto: Slapshot and Slapshot Jr.
To Washington: Leafs man
"Welcome to Canada -– everything fun is always behind a fence."
I like Slapshot, but I miss Winger.
Deutschland - das ist alles.
by Whiter Mage on Feb 21, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
In 2) and 3), I wouldn’t trade Ovechkin by himself for the entire packages coming back. The fact that we lose fantastic assets even after Ovechkin makes it even more of a no-brainer.
by sixsevenfiftysix on Feb 21, 2010 12:36 AM EST reply actions
Really? Zetterberg is on a huge deal, which plays into this I think, Washington gets back Lidstrom and a vet backup while clearing some space on the back end and giving up a replacement center, while also clearing cap room over the offseason for someone like Kovalchuk. I wanted to put Crosby instead of Malkin, but Malkin has the potential to be more dominant on any given night, in my honest opinion. I also think the C vs W deal makes Cs a little more valuable.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 21, 2010 1:58 AM EST up reply actions
Really? Zetterberg is on a huge deal, which plays into this I think, Washington gets back Lidstrom and a vet backup while clearing some space on the back end and giving up a replacement center, while also clearing cap room over the offseason for someone like Kovalchuk.
Zetterberg is in fact on a huge deal, but has yet to play 82 games in a season during his entire career. Not even once. The most he’s played since 2002-2003 is 77 games and sometimes it’s substantially less. Zetts is one of the premier two-way players in the game, really a fantastic player, but he’s not even close to Ovechkin caliber. Firstly, Ovie is the reigning two-time MVP and if the scoring rates hold up from now until the end of the season, he’s going to have a third. Secondly, Ovechkin is 24, Zetts is 29. Which player would you rather have on the mega contract?
Lidstrom is done at the end of this season or next and isn’t head-and-shoulders above the rest of the defensemen in the league anymore. There was a time in the recent past where he was (you could make an argument for last year and certainly since ~2000), but that time is gone.
In summary, there’s no way I trade ten or eleven more years of AO (even granted that his production will start to fall soon, he’s still going to be a force in the league for years to come) for 3 more years of prime Zetterberg and 20 or 100 games of Nick Lidstrom. Throw in a prospect at a position that the organization is shallow at (center) and a goalie with the potential to develop into an all-star and there’s no way in hell I pull the trigger on that.
I also think the C vs W deal makes Cs a little more valuable.
This is true…unless you’re dealing with a player of AO’s caliber. The fifth best center in the league has a much larger impact on winning games than the fifth best wing, but it’s not true when you’re talking best-player-of-the-generation at wing and any other center. If that center has the name Gretzky or Lemieux, that’s another topic, but those guys were more talented than anyone currently playing in the league.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Feb 21, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Admittedly I am high on Zetterberg, but I admire his versatility. While defense is a team stat, Zetterberg is very good at it, no question. He’s also great on draws and can shift to wing if need be. His cap hit is also ~$3 million lower than Ovechkin. Obviously the trade is not fair in terms of personnel (and I did have to artificially add in some players to make friendly cap numbers). The personnel in return probably cement a Finals berth, assuming chemistry and health, and that extra cap room could come in handy later.
The way I look at it, having Ovechkin, who has Semin playing behind him, becomes less valuable because of Semin. Meanwhile, looking on defense, well, New Jersey and Detroit had dynasties with consistent bluelines (though 2008 DET only retained Lidstrom, really).
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 21, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
Zetterberg is one of the best shutdown centers in the league (look what he did to Crosby while combined with Lidstrom during the SCF last year) and he has great offensive ability. My concerns: he’s at his absolute peak right now, today. Zetterberg will never be better than he is this very instant and he may have started his decline already. Ovechkin looks like he’s still climbing that ladder by learning better passing and vision and making better decisions with the puck. Nextly, he’s injury prone in a way that Ovechkin hasn’t been to this point. The 74 games that Ovie is on pace to play this season, his lowest total of his career, is above Zett’s mean of 72 games. He’s had back problems his entire career and I just don’t trust it to hold up.
The personnel in return probably cement a Finals berth, assuming chemistry and health, and that extra cap room could come in handy later.
Assuming chemistry and health, especially health, is a big jump with a guy like Zetterberg and a Dman who’ll be forty when the playoffs start to hit high gear. Even if does get them out of the East, there’s no guarantee that it gets them past the ‘Hawks, Sharks, or ’Nucks in the West. Then Lidstrom retires, Osgood continues his slide and you’re left with Zetterberg and gave up a legit NHL D and a legit 2C prospect and Alex Ovechkin for him. Not a good trade looking to the future.
Meanwhile, looking on defense, well, New Jersey and Detroit had dynasties with consistent bluelines (though 2008 DET only retained Lidstrom, really).
A) Getting Lidstrom for a year does nothing for our blueline consistency. Just the opposite, in fact. B) New Jersey had a historically great blueline during its run: Stevens, Niedermayer, Daneyko and Rafalski. Stevens was a 1st ballot guy, Nieds is a lock for 1st ballot and it wouldn’t surprise me to see Rafalski get in eventually. Brodeur is no slouch, either. The Red Wings blueline in 2002 had essentially Lidstrom at the height of his powers (Top 3 D of all time, I can only justify Orr and Harvey ahead of him), a 42 year old Chelios and err..yeah. Not much after that. Now have a look at the forwards: C: Yzerman, Larionov, Datsyuk, Fedorov, W: Shanahan, Hull, Robitaille, Holmstrom and Dominik Hasek going for his first Cup. It wasn’t just the blueline.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Feb 21, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
I just suppose I wouldn’t mind seeing at all Green-Schultz-Carlson-Alzner-two other solid top-4/5 defensemen as a consistent group of 6 for a decade or so, even at the expense of losing Ovechkin (assuming some sort of decent replacement—there’ll also be a second line center in Zetterberg). I’m also afraid of what could happen to Ovechkin. He’s still young, but will his body be able to keep up with his physical play later on, and if he tones down physically, will he be as effective? My gut tells me in that (fate forbid) case, he’d not be worth his money.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 22, 2010 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
I just suppose I wouldn’t mind seeing at all Green-Schultz-Carlson-Alzner-two other solid top-4/5 defensemen as a consistent group of 6 for a decade or so, even at the expense of losing Ovechkin
Those guys are already in the system, so why would we have to give up AO to realize that dream? It doesn’t make sense. We have the nucleus of 4 studs you like, and Lidsrom isn’t a 4/5 guy. He’s a 1. We can find/develop the 4/5 guys without a problem, so I don’t see how AO being traded comes into play.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Rob Parker on Feb 22, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This is speculation, of course, but having 6-top 4 Ds must cost a lot to maintain after ELCs expire.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 22, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Then for whom would you trade Ovechkin, assuming you had to? I get a feeling that his value is less than it is made out to be in general Caps nation. While he’s definitely singular in game-breaking ability, there must be groups of two or three players who can bring it just like Ovechkin. He just doesn’t seem to me like a demi-god or the model of consistency, focus, and effort I see him being praised as. Sometimes I’d rather have some guys from whom I know exactly what I’m getting every night, in terms of offense, responsible play, and production. Some nights Ovechkin seems off, but I’ve never (admittedly in a small sample size) seen Zetterberg off his game.
Or maybe I haven’t watched hockey long enough. Out of 7 years now (8, plus lockout), 5th with Ovechkin front and center.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 21, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
Then for whom would you trade Ovechkin, assuming you had to?
If I had no choice, I would trade him for Sidney Crosby, next choice is Duncan Keith. C and D are more important than W, as you point out, and if I have to give up the best player in the league, I want the best player at another position and I want them young. Crosby and Keith both satisfy that requirement and they’re going to be the best at their positions for a while.
While he’s definitely singular in game-breaking ability, there must be groups of two or three players who can bring it just like Ovechkin.
I don’t parse this, can you clarify?
He just doesn’t seem to me like a demi-god or the model of consistency, focus, and effort I see him being praised as. Sometimes I’d rather have some guys from whom I know exactly what I’m getting every night, in terms of offense, responsible play, and production.
He’s not the most focused player in the NHL, but rarely do you see him taking shifts off or not hustling. If you’re looking for more consistent offensive production than AO, I’m sorry, but you’re not going to find it, except maybe Nicklas Backstrom. Even when AO isn’t producing to his standards, he’s still producing at a level that equals the highest offensive rate that Zetterberg’s ever had and he’s doing it in more games. Then when he explodes, look out.
I’m pretty sure that if Ovie were a Red Wing and being coached by Babcock, he’d play responsibly within that system. Bruce plays a very up-tempo, attacking system that ends up with odd man rushes, both for and against, whereas DET plays a very controlled, puck-possession oriented game emphasizing short passes and multiple guys supporting the puck carrier as outlets.
He just doesn’t seem to me like a demi-god
No one really is, they’re all human. AO just makes the little plays with his stick, body positioning and strength. He finds the open areas in the coverage and once he gets the puck, he can do things that other players can’t because of the aforementioned traits.
People have an inflated idea of how good some of the players from the past are, because we have an entire corpus of play to draw highlights from and that’s all we ever see. We don’t see breakdowns of weaknesses, floating in the D zone or hanging out, hoping for the homerun pass. Even Gretzky and Lemieux had weaknesses in their games and had players that could beat them on a given day. Dale Hawerchuck gets almost no mention anymore, but he was a sublime talent when he was on. Bossy and Trottier took over games and won championships, even against a truly loaded Oilers team.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Feb 21, 2010 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t parse this, can you clarify?
That if you take player A and player B, A+B could be > Ovechkin at a similar cap hit.
He’s not the most focused player in the NHL, but rarely do you see him taking shifts off or not hustling. If you’re looking for more consistent offensive production than AO, I’m sorry, but you’re not going to find it, except maybe Nicklas Backstrom. Even when AO isn’t producing to his standards, he’s still producing at a level that equals the highest offensive rate that Zetterberg’s ever had and he’s doing it in more games. Then when he explodes, look out.
AO is definitely the most dangerous when he’s on. However, when he’s off, and trying to play that up-tempo system that isn’t exactly friendly to limiting odd man rushes against, it seems like a recipe for disaster. If AO is a non-factor on a given night (as much as he can be), then it would make sense to me for at least a guy on the other team to become a non-factor as well.
Defensively, you can still get in passing lanes and skate hard and clear the puck—much more consistent than offense, IMO. But if your game is concentrated on pressuring on offense to play defense, and the offense is off, then the results may not be so great.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 22, 2010 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
That if you take player A and player B, A+B could be > Ovechkin at a similar cap hit.
For instance? Keep in mind that Ovechkin only needs his own ice time (22-23 minutes, at least that’s what it should be), while player A and B need ~40:00, perhaps more. Let’s assume that Player A is Zetterberg for a second, who are you signing for 3 million that makes the team better than Ovechkin? Remember that this bumps Semin up the 1st line and that while he’s getting better center play, he’s also going against the top checking line and top defensive pairing as the primary wing threat every night. Are you comfortable with that going into the playoffs?
Let’s look at a guy like Dan Hamhuis, who people are throwing around at ~3mil as a free agent. He’s a 3-4 for the Caps, so making this trade and signing him, we give up a 5-6D UFA, a solid 2C prospect who will be cost controlled for a while, a 1LW locked in for another 10 years, for a 2C (admittedly a very, very good 2C) locked in for 10 years, a back-up goalie nearing retirement and a 1D UFA on the downslope of his career and maybe a 3-4D signed for 3 years at Ovie’s money.
Defensively, you can still get in passing lanes and skate hard and clear the puck—much more consistent than offense, IMO.
Ovie is still going to take the body and draw the attention of the best defenders on the other team, irrespective of whether he’s on that night. You can count on him to do that night-in and night-out, because that’s what he’s done here for almost 5 years very consistently. Ovie will never be the defensive player that Zetterberg is (unless there’s a dramatic learning curve increase on AO’s part), but Zetts will never be close to the offensive threat that Ovie is, and is consistently.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Feb 22, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
While Ovie does only need half the time, part of the time that A and B would take up would go to a lesser player. But I suppose I’m trying to argue 10+3<6+6, in a way.
Ovie is still going to take the body and draw the attention of the best defenders on the other team, irrespective of whether he’s on that night. You can count on him to do that night-in and night-out, because that’s what he’s done here for almost 5 years very consistently. Ovie will never be the defensive player that Zetterberg is (unless there’s a dramatic learning curve increase on AO’s part), but Zetts will never be close to the offensive threat that Ovie is, and is consistently.
What I haven’t really gotten over is that Ovie was a +8 last season despite great offensive numbers. Yes, this season he’s far and away the top guy in that (flawed) statistic, but nevertheless, only +8? I don’t know how that can’t suggest that when he’s not controlling the puck, it has a good chance of ending up in the back of our net.
Maybe I’m hoping a little too much, but it seems like the offensive depth at wing is decent even without AO. Zetterberg at 2C would only serve to make his wingers better, I think. I also mentioned his versatility, that he can be thrown in on the PK in a late one-goal down situation for example, and not only do a great job in that regard, but also be a big offensive threat. Babcock said that he loves having Lidstrom on Detroit since Lidstrom will go out in the final minute of a close game, regardless of who’s up. Zetterberg is the same sort of deal, I feel, moreso than Ovie.
Are you comfortable with that going into the playoffs?
With a player of Semin’s caliber, yes, but with him and his relatively injury prone self, it could be better, but I’m not exactly uncomfortable with that either. Not confident, but I don’t think it’s a major issue.
While Lidstrom is on the downside of his career, I also, watching him play, get the impression that he’s still really really good, but Detroit as a team isn’t getting results and they’re also trying to usher in Kronwall to fill in Lidstrom’s shoes. Given more ice time, with the way he plays—not too physical, but skating, smarts, etc—he could play for several more years.
I admit that the trade favors Detroit, but I don’t think it’s all that unfair.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 22, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Last year he was stuck carrying Viktor Kozlov on his back.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Season before that though? +28, even though the Caps sucked for 1/4 of the season (relatively, to the rest of the league).
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 23, 2010 7:41 AM EST up reply actions
With a player of Semin’s caliber, yes, but with him and his relatively injury prone self, it could be better, but I’m not exactly uncomfortable with that either. Not confident, but I don’t think it’s a major issue.
A player of Semin’s caliber who isn’t injury prone and/or neutralized by Brooks Orpik harassing him costs more than Alex Semin. I’m not comfortable with him as my primary goal-scoring threat, not when a cold streak buries you in the playoffs.
While Lidstrom is on the downside of his career, I also, watching him play, get the impression that he’s still really really good, but Detroit as a team isn’t getting results and they’re also trying to usher in Kronwall to fill in Lidstrom’s shoes. Given more ice time, with the way he plays—not too physical, but skating, smarts, etc—he could play for several more years.
While he could, the question is: Does he want to? There’ve been rumblings that he’ll retire at the end of this year, or the next one, or take his skates to Sweden to finish his career. In my opinion, Nick Lidstrom was the defining player of 2000-2008, Ovie may be the defining player of the next nine years. Why would we trade ten years of the latter for twenty to one-hundred games of the latter and eight years of a second-tier star, along with other assets?
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Feb 24, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Brain fart, Jesus. Preview button, self. Use it better.
Why would we trade ten years of the latter for twenty to one-hundred games of thelatterformer and eight years of a second-tier star, along with other assets?
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Feb 24, 2010 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
I once had a coach who put it this way
If you make a mistake on offense, just get back on D, but if you make a mistake on defense, it’s in your net (this was soccer, but I think the same analogy holds in hockey).
Lidstrom and Zetterberg are great defensive players, probably great role models for guys like Flash, Alzner, Carlson, Johnasson, etc. I honestly think that trade, this year, would win the Caps the Stanley Cup. While in the next few seasons the team may get worse, I feel like overall that experience, once the blueline hits that ~30 years old mark, then the Caps will be really, really good again, and a better contender than if they play BB’s system all through those years as Green-esque defensemen.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 24, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
That trade doesn’t guarantee a Stanley Cup, not by a long shot. Even the teams that dominate the regular season have no better than a roughly one-in-five shot to win the whole kit-n-kaboodle. Adding Zetterberg and Lidstrom improves the team this season, but certainly not after that. Ten years of lowered potential isn’t worth increasing the odds of winning this year by a couple of percentage points.
Look at the Bruins last season — they were great at stopping other teams from scoring, great at scoring and got bounced in the second round by the ’Canes. The Sharks ran into Jonas Hiller and Hiller almost got the Red Wings, too. Meanwhile, the Pens won the Cup with a heavy forecheck and a decidedly pedestrian defensive corps, while pouring in the offense.
If you make a mistake on offense, just get back on D, but if you make a mistake on defense, it’s in your net (this was soccer, but I think the same analogy holds in hockey).
The analogy holds to an extent, but it’s flawed. For one, goalies play a much larger role in hockey than in soccer, they cover more of the net area as a proportion and they make a far higher save percentage. For another, scoring a goal on offense cancels out making a mistake on defense that the opponent capitalizes on. You can teach defense, but you can’t premiere teach offensive talent. Offensive talent is exactly what you’re giving up in this trade, another reason I don’t like it.
While in the next few seasons the team may get worse,
The team is going to get better over the next few years as the blueline matures and the prospects come up, why would we want to make it worse for one shot?
I feel like overall that experience, once the blueline hits that ~30 years old mark, then the Caps will be really, really good again, and a better contender than if they play BB’s system all through those years as Green-esque defensemen.
They’re probably going deep in the playoffs this year (unless they run into a superhot goalie or are crippled by injury), so the marginal benefit isn’t that great. Probably one round of extra experience, at the most.
When that blueline hits the ~30 years old mark, it’ll be 2016 at the earliest (Green and Schultz will be nearby). I’ll bet you anything you care to part with that the same group isn’t back there by then. You’re going to lose people to injury, trade, free agency, you name it, it’ll happen. Jeff Schultz isn’t going to stay cheap forever. John Carlson definitely won’t stay cheap forever. Who knows where the forward corps is in 6 years? Our window is in the next few years, trading to prop it open a tad wider this season, then slamming it shut makes no sense for the franchise.
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by Knee high to a duck on Feb 24, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
Adding Zetterberg and Lidstrom improves the team this season, but certainly not after that. Ten years of lowered potential isn’t worth increasing the odds of winning this year by a couple of percentage points.
I can’t see into the future, but I’m not sure the impact would end up still being negative on a season-to-season basis in 10 years’ time.
Maybe I’m being hopeful, but I’m hinging on that in 10 years’ time or less Varly is hitting his prime, the Lidstrom-aided D is hitting its prime (and better off as a result—you can teach defense, but I doubt anyone can teach HOF-level D like Lidstrom in the post-lockout NHL), and the centers and wingers have a better commitment to defense and are flat-out smarter.
Hockey is so fast that small tendencies and instincts, like Ovie’s tendency to go up looking for a stretch pass, sometimes outweigh any teaching that may have been done. I know I was consciously thinking about jumping deep into the offense in soccer, but I hardly ever did, because my instinct was to protect the goal.
At least that’s my take.
The analogy holds to an extent, but it’s flawed. For one, goalies play a much larger role in hockey than in soccer, they cover more of the net area as a proportion and they make a far higher save percentage.
He was hyperbole-izing as it is, but a mistake in hockey, with fewer players on the ice than in soccer, can lead to a scoring opportunity. No matter how good your goalie is, too many of those against and the team will lose. I feel like playing good defense is a better way of controlling the game than playing great offense—the former is completely in the team’s hands, while the latter depends heavily upon the opponent and how well the opposing goalie is playing. I’d rather have the Caps control their outcome than depend on the play of, say, Marc-Andre Fleury.
The team is going to get better over the next few years as the blueline matures and the prospects come up, why would we want to make it worse for one shot?
Any trade really for a “rental” type player makes the team worse for one shot, doesn’t it?
I know it’s small sample size, but in the games this season that Ovie has missed the Caps are scoring 4 goals a game. When I look ahead, I see stronger, better players on offense that may even approach this team in prowess (though a future team + Ovie would be much better).
I think most people would agree that sans Ovie, the Caps are a playoff team. Add in Zetterberg and they’re a solid perennial playoff team with a few seasons of actual, legitimate “contention” in there. With trades, drafts, and the FA market, things are pretty unpredictable when it comes to improving the team. I hope that BB as a coach will help keep most of the players around, since I can’t really imagine where else the Hershey guys would want to play (except a place like Montreal).
When that blueline hits the ~30 years old mark, it’ll be 2016 at the earliest (Green and Schultz will be nearby). I’ll bet you anything you care to part with that the same group isn’t back there by then. You’re going to lose people to injury, trade, free agency, you name it, it’ll happen.
See above about BB as coach. I’d like to also point out that I’m probably too young to really know how things change when change isn’t intended, so correct me if my hopes are wrong.
Jeff Schultz isn’t going to stay cheap forever. John Carlson definitely won’t stay cheap forever.
~$3 million in extra cap room will help in that case. Other older players will have gone and new cheaper ELC players will be on. I can’t project how big of an issue that will be, but my head, gut, and heart (fwiw), say it’s not a big deal without Ovie. With him, it’ll be an issue for sure (in which case guys like Flash I think will have to go).
Our window is in the next few years, trading to prop it open a tad wider this season, then slamming it shut makes no sense for the franchise.
While the offense may not improve, the D and G certainly will, and my hope is that the latter’s improvement offset’s the former’s decline. My idea in trying to improve the D is that on an older squad that doesn’t have the speed or youth or even skill to keep up with younger teams, their smart defensive play, a la 2008 Detroit, will keep them in contention. Mathematically, a translation of the winning window (adding an unfortunate gap in the middle) is what I was going for.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 25, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
He just doesn’t seem to me like a demi-god or the model of consistency, focus, and effort I see him being praised as. Sometimes I’d rather have some guys from whom I know exactly what I’m getting every night, in terms of offense, responsible play, and production.
So you must absolutely hate Alex Semin then, right?
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Touche
I, like many others, have a love-hate relationship with Semin. Just feel though that Ovie’s play is more critical to the Caps’ success than Semin’s play.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 22, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
It is. And the Caps have been so consistently successful…
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Sorta
But they are still streaky. Seems like 6-game (or more) winning streak followed by 3-4 game losing streak, then winning streak again, and so on. Need to fix that.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 22, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
Tough crowd.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Product of high expectations, an Islander, Maple Leaf, or Oiler fan would tell you.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 23, 2010 7:41 AM EST up reply actions
AO is easily better than Zetterberg, and we have him for another decade. Lidstrom is good but his career is over soon. Osgood would be our number three or four goalie (without trading Theo). In 3) we don’t need Fleury at all, so you’re basically losing Ovechkin and getting Malkin. If we had wanted that we would’ve taken Malkin first in 04 (and it would’ve been one of the biggest blunders in NHL history).
by sixsevenfiftysix on Feb 21, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree here. Fleury is proven, and Varlamov isn’t. Age won’t be a factor for years. Fleury has much more value, in my opinion.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 21, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
Between having the luxury of Varlamov, Neuvirth, Holtby, and the un-luxury of some work to do in free agency, the LAST thing we need is a $5 mil a year goalie who’s locked up until 2015.
by sixsevenfiftysix on Feb 21, 2010 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
At least though the goaltending situation is set. Fleury can play a lot of games and play them in a short time, a la playoffs, without collapsing completely due to fatigue (or at least can play more—Varly lost it after just 12 games). I also really don’t see who will be better than Fleury in the near future, save Lundqvist. He’s shown that he is probably more durable than Varly, he’s a proven clutch Cup-winning goalie, still young and not all that expensive. Just add a $1 million backup and your most important position is solid.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 22, 2010 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
Ugh.
Are we so bad we need to send ov, sasha, or mike to make our team a contender?
by Love and Osechkin on Feb 21, 2010 1:07 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Some people may think so—myself not included. But it’s always interesting to think about making giant blockbusters and to see where your team is at from there on out.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 21, 2010 1:58 AM EST up reply actions
- is some crazy shit but one that, imo, would put us over the top.
Driving under the influence of hockey since godknow's when.
lol
Number 11 is the most lopsided trade I’ve ever seen online.
You successfully ended the future of hockey in Nashville, thus going where not even Craig Lie-pold could go. Well done.
On the Forecheck-where Patric Hornqvist is never underappreciated.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 22, 2010 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
He’s in cahoots with Ballsillie. And don’t overlook the fact that you’d be getting some serious talent back the other way.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
eh
Still think its lopsided. Not worth getting into, I don’t think, since we’ve all discussed the many virtues of DH, SW, RS, and Green.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 22, 2010 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
I wanted to be provocative. None of these NHL trades save 11 are worth it I feel because of chemistry and dependence-on-player reasons, but I tried to not make them all lopsided either (doesn’t mean I didn’t ask for a super ginormous risk in, say, #1, though)
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 22, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Sorta
I wanted to make everything a blockbuster, more or less. Really though, like F&B, I’d only pull the trigger on the Nashville one. If Alex Semin were more durable, I would also consider the Ovie for Sid and Rupp one.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 21, 2010 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
crosby does not belong in a capitals uniform, can you picture it? I can’t
~~~ R0cK D@ R3D ~~~
by Chaz-Capapalooza on Feb 21, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
At least that uniform wasn’t red.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 21, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
Shea Weber > Mike Green by himself. This isn’t even counting the immense talents of Hamhuis and Suter.
It did make me laugh, though. And Nashville already has their future goalie, so no thanks on Varlamov.
On the Forecheck-where Patric Hornqvist is never underappreciated.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 22, 2010 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
Shea Weber > Mike Green by himself.
If you’re going to make that case, it better be in the defensive end. Green beats the pants off of everyone else offensively and is one of the very best at moving the puck up the ice and out of the zone. Yes, Shea Weber has a bigger slapshot, but that’s not the be-all, end-all of offensive work from the blueline.
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by Knee high to a duck on Feb 22, 2010 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
and
That is indeed where my case is from, so no worries.
Weber is, in my eyes, significantly better defensively and “close” (though no one comes truly close) enough to Green offensively for me to justify making that statement.
On the Forecheck-where Patric Hornqvist is never underappreciated.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 22, 2010 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think it’s that cut-and-dried. I do think that Shea Weber had been significantly underrated by the MSM for pretty much all of last year and this year before his OLY selection, but I don’t see him as a amazingly better than Mike Green in his own end. Or rather, maybe he is much better than Mike Green in his own end, but the team is much less likely to be in their own end with Green on the ice.
Looking at the metrics, I think it’s fair to say that SW is better than MG defensively. SW plays better competition and keeps their shooting percentage lower, while maintaining a lower GAON/60 than Green can boast at 5on5. That said, Suter is attached to Weber at the hip and as you’ve pointed out, he’s the better defender out of that pairing. Mike Green didn’t have the luxury until he was paired with Jeff Schultz recently and while i love me some Schultz, he’s not on the same level that Ryan Suter is.
But the name of the game is having more points on the scoreboard at the end of the game than the other team does and MG is way, way better than SW at that. The Caps are 1.1 goals per 60 at ES further in the positive direction with Green on the ice than off it, as opposed to .21 goals better per 60 at ES with Weber and NSH. Suter and Franson actually measure up much better in that metric than Weber does, although in Franson’s case that’s partially explained by playing the weakest competition on the team by far.
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by Knee high to a duck on Feb 22, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
good work
So my statement was partially, true, then, but not totally. Green is better offensively than I thought. My problem is while I really enjoy reading/learning the stats, I base my analysis a bit more on just watching the game, to my fault. Just watching, it looks like Weber is on the same stratosphere as Green on O, but obviously not.
Answer me this, if you don’t mind. Is WSH’s GP60 with Green on the ice a product of him playing with outstanding forwards? Because one wonders what Weber’s point totals would look like if he played with Ovechkin and Backstrom. Not trying to further my Weber argument, merely wondering how much this plays into it statistically.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 22, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
That definitely plays into it, but the numbers I cited were +/- per 60 when Green is on the ice and when Green is off the ice. The difference between the two for the team is 1.1, whereas they score 4.69 goals per 60 at ES with Mike on the ice and 2.87 when he’s off it. Part of it is that he’s out there with the big guns at forward, but when the difference is almost 2 goals scored over the course of a game and you’re logging 25 minutes of ice, I don’t think you can put it all on the forwards.
So in conclusion, Weber’s numbers would definitely jump playing with those forwards, but it’s not just the forwards.
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by Knee high to a duck on Feb 22, 2010 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
gotcha
Interesting stuff. Suffice to say we’re both thankful for our franchise defensemen :).
On the Forecheck-where Patric Hornqvist is never underappreciated.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 22, 2010 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
If you put much stock into in GVT (looking at defenders with minimum 50 games played)…
Mike Green has a 3.4 defensive GVT and 16.7 total GVT (second in the NHL behind Duncan Keith).
Shea Weber has a 3.9 defensive GVT (in the top 30 in the league, tied with your boy Barrett Jackman) and a 9.2 total GVT, good for top 15 D in the league.
It’s real close between those two, imo.
Driving under the influence of hockey since godknow's when.
To DAL: Capstronaut (so that he can be closer to Mission Control)
To WSH: Brisket kiosk for the lower concourse + a dehumidifier
by Cluster on Feb 21, 2010 11:03 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
If we are dealing with DAL I want the pimped out Zamboni and the ice girls.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Rob Parker on Feb 21, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I like the Laughlin trade, but I like Joe B
~~~ R0cK D@ R3D ~~~
by Chaz-Capapalooza on Feb 21, 2010 2:02 PM EST reply actions
What a team, Olczyk and Emrick. Just think of the rhymes that could be made with those names. Or was that the whole point?
Rocking the Red since 1975
They’re not all bad, that was a little “taking one for the good of the NHL” stuff there too, but they don’t annoy me all that much and I figure NBC would be that much better in HD AND with great announcers. Until they get to the point where I’m no longer wondering how to mute the announcers without muting the sounds of the game, it’s not good.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 21, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
How about Steve Kolbe to Boston for a gallon of chowder, and then we sign Ron Weber out of retirement? I’d also accept a bowl of chowder, a little package of those oyster crackers, and a condiment to be named later.
How about Steve Kolbe to Boston for agallonStanley Cup of chowder
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 22, 2010 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
I think 11) is something i could actually get behind. . .
I like this trade:
To LA: Laughlin, Capstronaut, and Slapshot
To WSH: The LA Ice Crew
To VAN: Snow
To WSH: Evil Twin Voodoo Magic
To PHI: Bradley
To WSH: Carcillo
We take out Carcillo when he gets in to town, and the Professor takes down the Flyers from the inside!!!
Bah-Ram-Ewe, Ovechkin will wreck you. Fear the Furious Fleece!
by kingzman264 on Feb 21, 2010 11:56 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
If you’d proposed the second one before the Games got started you may have found yourself a GM job somewhere.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 22, 2010 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
Washington Trades: Nationals, Wizards, DC United
Pittsburgh Trades: Pirates, Penguins
Washington becomes a true hockey town, with two Stanley Cup contenders. Pittsburgh gains a moderately better MLB team with a similar payroll and more future upside, a NBA team with a lot of future upside, but off-court problems, and another team that has had flashes of brilliance but lacked consistency in this cost-cutting plan that gives them plenty of talent to develop.
I wouldn’t trade the United for the Penguins straight up. Though maybe I could be convinced if contracting the Penguins was part of the deal.
by sixsevenfiftysix on Feb 22, 2010 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
How about if it’s the steelers instead of the pirates? DC might have to add the mystics because of cap issues, but I believe the steelers might return to form.
DC can throw in the Kastles too. A high-risk prospect for sure.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 23, 2010 7:45 AM EST up reply actions
I assume you mean Steelers instead of the Penguins (i.e., Nats, Wiz, United, and possibly Mystics in exchange for Steelers and Pirates).
In that case, I think I’d probably agree as long as Washington gets to keep the Generals. I’ve always preferred them to the Wizards anyway.
Another city would have to get involved in the deal to make it a three-way trade, because there’s no way Pittsburgh will agree to anything that leaves them without an NFL team. Not sure if the Bay Area needs two football teams. Send the Raiders and Billy Beane to Pittsburgh for the Penguins. Pittsburgh was going to lose them anyway, they’ll get over it.
by sixsevenfiftysix on Feb 24, 2010 4:39 AM EST up reply actions
After tonight’s game, some fans may be willing to do the following deal:
Send Ovi, Semin, and a goalie prospect to the San Jose Sharks for Heatley, Thornton, Boyle, and Vlasic. (Let’s get rid of these chokers for people who can win in the clutch and get a nice young blue liner in return, while we’re at it. The Sharks need to replace Nabokov sooner or later.)
Would I seriously make that deal? No, especially given that Ovi and Semin have youth in their favor as compared to Heatley and Thornton. Plus, I like them better, as well.
But this is a wacky trade proposal that might be credible. Or semi-credible
Rocking the Red since 1975
Ha. You are probably the first person to ever refer to the core players on the Sharks as people who can win in the clutch.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 24, 2010 11:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Florida
|
54 | 26 | 17 | 11 | 63 |
|
Washington
|
54 | 28 | 21 | 5 | 61 |
|
Winnipeg
|
57 | 26 | 25 | 6 | 58 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
54 | 24 | 24 | 6 | 54 |
|
Carolina
|
56 | 20 | 25 | 11 | 51 |
(updated 2.12.2012 at 8:46 AM EST)
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