Andy Sutton: Big Body... Big Upgrade?
by J.P. on Feb 17, 2010 1:30 PM EST
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PrintThere’s a lot of interest in [Andy] Sutton as a big-time rental. For a team like Washington, Sutton could help them beat Pittsburgh and get to the Cup Final. For an impact defenseman, you make the deal and don’t look back." - An anonymous NHL director of pro scouting
The Washington Capitals are apparently one of eight teams interested in acquiring Islanders UFA-to-be defenseman Andy Sutton, and, on the surface at least, such interest seems to make sense. Sutton's big (listed at 6-6, 245), tough, and more than a little bit dirty. He blocks shots, doles out hits by the bushel and has more than 500 games of NHL experience. He is, it would appear, the embodiment of everything that fans pine for in "a crease-clearing defenseman."
But how big an upgrade is Sutton over what the Caps already have? For the sake of comparison, let's take a look at the nearly 35-year-old blueliner next to the Caps' closest approximation of the proverbial crease-clearer, John Erskine:
The numbers to focus on here are the overall and shorthanded ice time, hits and blocked shots (the plus-minus differential is obviously huge, but given the teams on which the two rearguards play, not terribly significant). Sutton plays more and tougher minutes than Erskine, but that disparity in hits (a dubious stat which may be significantly over-counted on the Island to begin with) disappears when you look at it as a per-minute rate. The blocked shot differential is huge, but no doubt aided by Sutton's 85 extra minutes of penalty killing time, as those are prime shot-blocking minutes. Still, there's no denying that Sutton is an elite shot blocker.
Going beyond these "traditional" stats, we can look at Goals Versus Threshold (or "GVT") to approximate "the value of a player, in goals, above what a replacement player would have contributed." In terms of offensive contribution, Sutton is far and away the more valuable player, with a 1.0 to -0.6 advantage in Offensive GVT over Erskine - that is to say that Sutton is a little bit better offensively than a replacement defenseman would be, and Erskine's worse offensively than that imaginary rearguard snatched up off the scrap heap.
On defense, however, it's a different story - both Sutton and Erskine have a 1.7 Defensive GVT (which isn't a terribly impressive number to begin with and ranks fourth among blueliners on both the Isles and the Caps). Of course, those 1.7's aren't created equal, as Sutton's have come in those harder minutes. Further to that point, here is what each of our subjects has been able to do at five-on-five this season:
As noted earlier, Sutton plays tougher minutes than Erskine (as evidenced by the high QualComp), but the interesting number here is the GAON/60. Sutton's 2.40 comes while playing big minutes for a team with a 2.7 GA/60 at five-on-five, meaning that when he's off the ice, the team is much worse off defensively. Similarly, Erskine's 1.81 for a team whose GA/60 is 2.2 is impressive (but in far easier minutes).
Down a man, Sutton has an 8.53 GAON/60 while playing for a team that has a 9.1 GA/60 at four-on-five, so he's better than his teammates... but not impressive. Erskine's 9.95 mark, however, for a team with a 7.3 GA/60 at four-on-five, is downright woeful.
Andy Sutton is an upgrade over John Erskine, there's no doubt about that. But when you look at just how big an upgrade he might be (is he a second-pairing defenseman for a contender and, if so, can he truly handle that role?) - and throw in the fact that Sutton has all of four games of playoff experience in his career - it gets harder and harder to justify giving up a lot for Sutton. It certainly isn't a situation in which you "make the deal and don’t look back"... is it?
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Erskine steps it up in the playoffs
Do you remember Erskine in last years playoffs? I don’t have any numbers to back this up – but it seemed like his game went to another level. He was, in my opinion, one of our best defensemen during last years playoffs.
One other point – if 8 other teams are interested I say GMGM needs to back away slowly. Sutton is going to cost too much and won’t provide nearly the uplift defensively needed to justify it. I’d much rather have GMGM play it close to the vest (like he always does) and bring in another diamond in the ruff (Chimera) to firm up our D.
Last point – enough with this “GMGM is looking at goaltenders” crap. It’s all over the web. The Caps don’t need ANOTHER goalie. Hell – I’d like to trade at least one of them. Theo, Varly, Nuvi, and Holtby will be/are NHL calliber goaltenders. We don’t need another tender!
Other than him dominating Avery, there was nothing special about him
Driver and head Muckety-Muck of The Pavel Kubina Bandwagon
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LORD PALMERSTON!!
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Feb 17, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
I haven’t watched enough of the Isles to determine this, but how well can Andy Sutton move the puck? Will he make a quality decision with the puck when Matt Cooke or Tyler Kennedy is bearing down on him? Either way, the numbers suggest that he would represent an upgrade over our current 5-6 but not necessarily be top-four quality.
I would probably give up a couple of B prospects for him, maybe a third round pick.
Let me preface by saying, I really dislike Andy Sutton for his often dirty play, but if I can have him on the Caps I’d take him in a NY Islander minute. No mistaking, this is all about finding a big bodied defenseman with a real nasty streak who is capable of laying out Sidney Crosby every time he ventures into the crease. Andy Sutton is that guy and John Erskine isn’t and that’s primarily because you never, ever want John Erskine on the ice when Crosby’s line is out there. Sutton would be a rental and the Caps would have to overpay to get him, but as long as the price isn’t over-the-top, I’d do it and “not look back”. If it’s not Sutton, then it’s got to be someone like him because if the Caps go into the playoffs with their current defensive corp, the results probably won’t be very satisfying.
Crosby’s got 3g, 5a in four games against the Islanders this season, and to be honest, I don’t even think NYI tried to match Sutton to him.
If it’s not Sutton, then it’s got to be someone like him
Choice B. Sutton isn’t exactly the Gill to Crosby’s Jagr.
"I'm glad I got drafted first, because no one remembers number two." -- Alexandre Daigle
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is all about finding a big bodied defenseman with a real nasty streak who is capable of laying out Sidney Crosby every time he ventures into the crease. Andy Sutton is that guy and John Erskine isn’t and that’s primarily because you never, ever want John Erskine on the ice when Crosby’s line is out there
Crosby’s got 3g, 5a in four games against the Islanders this season, and to be honest, I don’t even think NYI tried to match Sutton to him.
"I'm glad I got drafted first, because no one remembers number two." -- Alexandre Daigle
by Hooks Orpik on Feb 17, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
Crosby’s got 3g, 5a in four games against the Islanders this season, and to be honest, I don’t even think NYI tried to match Sutton to him.
Then maybe the should be matching Sutton with Crosby. The Penguins won 3 out of 4 of those games, scored 15 goals and Sutton was an even or plus player in all of them. Also, in those four games he was on the ice for only two even strength goals and only one of those was by Crosby.
Rec’d for thoughtful follow-up.
Game-Over Green? Canada-Over Carlson!
by Scott in Shaw on Feb 17, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
aaaaand, unrec’d for getting pwned below ;-)
Game-Over Green? Canada-Over Carlson!
by Scott in Shaw on Feb 17, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Also, in those four games he was on the ice for only two even strength goals and only one of those was by Crosby.
You missed something along the way, Sutton was on the ice for two Crosby ES goals in this game alone He was also on the ice for 5 total goals Crosby got points on that night. When they were matched up, it wasn’t pretty.
The bottom line is Sutton is not going to be a magic elixir that will have Crosby neutralized.
"I'm glad I got drafted first, because no one remembers number two." -- Alexandre Daigle
In all fairness, I don’t think there’s ANYONE available out there who’s a magic elixir to neutralize Crosby.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Feb 17, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
True that. Sutton has the size/strength to be “capable” of laying Crosby out, as borr mentioned, but in the limited chances they’ve been out there, the red light’s come on many more times than not.
"I'm glad I got drafted first, because no one remembers number two." -- Alexandre Daigle
I’ll take a small guy who can skate to cover Crosby every day. Give me Kimmo Timonen. Give me Duncan Keith (obviously). Give me someone that has the requisite foundational skill to play the game.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I’ve been trying to see how B Mo covers him on the back-check, it’s not just about the D. Too early to tell as again, I don’t think he was particularly matched against him. As far as Caps O-men and centers go, his +/- is pretty solid.
If we do get another center I wonder where that’d put him on the depth chart in relation to Crosby’s line.
Not at all. Who cares how big you are, Sutton is never going to catch Crosby to lay him out. Plus, Crosby is so strong on his feet that if Sutton does manage to catch him he’ll just be pushing Crosby along. Crosby is the best player in the game at using the opposing player’s check force to propel him away.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
That’s not the same thing I’m talking about. AO goes through guys, but Crosby turns from them and lines up his skates so the force of the check just propels him away. Both are effective, it’s just a different method.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
umm…well it was a lighthearted rebuttal, but AO definitely turns/angles in order to use gauthier’s own force against him. he didn’t just truck him.
by Natty Bumppo on Feb 17, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, don’t get me wrong, any excuse to post that clip is a good one, I’m just clarifying what I meant.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
it’s a favorite of mine. gauthier tried to run AO with a similar result that same preseason.
by Natty Bumppo on Feb 17, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
Gauthier is a punk.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Arguably so is Sutton.
"In the depths of winter, I learned there was in me an invincible summer" ~Albert Camus
Insta-Rec
Never seen anything like it before or since… my favorite Ovie moment.
PuckDaddy be damned, I'm putting CincoCinco on the back of a Schultz jersey!
by Chris meet Alex on Feb 17, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
Last season, Crosby, Malkin, Sykora, Dupuis and Jeff Carter, among others each had some success against Sutton (small samples, to be sure).
By contrast, Jeff Schultz is awesome.
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(Related: I wish that site would update with this year’s stats… sigh.)
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If you want to shut down Crosby et al, don’t you need to have good defensively positioned D-men and more importantly good defensively positioned CENTERS! Isn’t that how you control star players, not by a single shut-down D-man, but by team defense when he’s on the ice.
I think Nick Lidstrom on the Islanders against Crosby yields pretty much the same results, no?
PuckDaddy be damned, I'm putting CincoCinco on the back of a Schultz jersey!
by Chris meet Alex on Feb 17, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
No, I don’t think so. I mean, yes – defending elite players requires full-team commitment. But to suggest that stellar defensive D’s are really just the product of backchecking forwards isn’t entirely fair, IMO.
Look at what Volchenkov did to Ovechkin the other night (not to say he’s conssitently shut down AO, of course). Or what Schultz has been able to do to Malkin. Strong defensemen can negate star players, to an extent, on their own.
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yeah, that was an overstatement.
But, for the case of this discussion none of that quality of player seems to be available at the deadline this year. Thus we’d better work on our team D come playoff time.
PuckDaddy be damned, I'm putting CincoCinco on the back of a Schultz jersey!
by Chris meet Alex on Feb 17, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
Do you think that the mean streak is what the team is missing? Or is it a calm, stalwart that lifts Crosby’s stick rather than putting him on his tail?
The other name often mentioned on this board is Hamhuis. I know that he and Sutton aren’t the same player but how do they compare?
we're not gonna allow someone like Downie to go after him.
hamhuis is a better, younger, cheaper (for now) version of both poti and poither
IMHO. and he plays lots of PK minutes. oh yeah and he can actually clear the puck (looking at poti).
by Area 51 Forever on Feb 17, 2010 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
but i think poti is better offensively
but hamhuis is no stiff and can contribute offensviely somewhat.
by Area 51 Forever on Feb 17, 2010 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
this is all about finding a big bodied defenseman with a real nasty streak who is capable of laying out Sidney Crosby every time he ventures into the crease.
I don’t think it’s that simple, especially since in most cases that’s only going to put the Caps down a man.
And the only way he is at the crease to clear out Crosby is if he just stands there waiting, in which case he’s useless for everything else.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
No mistaking, this is all about finding a big bodied defenseman with a real nasty streak who is capable of laying out Sidney Crosby every time he ventures into the crease.
You mean an interference penalty on skates? Crosby had success against the Caps in the playoffs last year not because no Cap could clean him out, but because Caps Ds lost him. Repeatedly. I’m looking at you, @GreenLife52.
you never, ever want John Erskine on the ice when Crosby’s line is out there
Fact.
if the Caps go into the playoffs with their current defensive corp, the results probably won’t be very satisfying.
Agreed
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You mean an interference penalty on skates? Crosby had success against the Caps in the playoffs last year not because no Cap could clean him out, but because Caps Ds lost him. Repeatedly. I’m looking at you, @GreenLife52.
Uh, here’s a hint…
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Feb 17, 2010 9:22 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
OK, so let’s recap…
Big defenseman
Mean streak
Not especially mobile
Not particularly impressive GA #‘s, even on a struggling team (being better than his current batch of teammates really isn’t a sell)
OK, now… who does this remind one of?
Mr. Spot-Weld 2006… Brendan Witt
You really want to make that deal?
If you've read this far...seek help.
Hey, uh, Witt is cheaper than Sutton in terms of cap hit. AND we can probably acquire him for nothing, given that he’s playing in Binghampton.
Plus, y’know, he can get hit by a Lexus SUV and still play the same day. The SUV, of course, is day-to-day with a lower body injury.
GUTEN TAAAAAAAAAAAAG!
And he’s great at growing a fu-manchu.
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Any ideas as to what the Isles are looking for in return? Is there a lot of talk about them looking for prospects in return? A goalie perhaps?
Not sure. But as a possible point of reference, the Pens gave a 2nd and a 5th two years ago for Hal Gill.
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Guessing, but: Watching tight-lipped Snow so far, he’d want a nice pick or the right prospect. Definitely, positively, absolutely not a goalie.
As always with these, the question is which GM is jumpy enough to overpay. If there are truly multiple bidders, I’d expect the Caps to avoid it; but if they’re one of two? Maybe a reasonable price is in order.
Lighthouse Hockey: Under contract through 2021, knees and hips be damned.
by Dominik on Feb 17, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
a) Will his skill set fit? If he is a better puck-mover? Skate faster? it’s possible he would thrive on the Caps with Erskine’s minutes exponentially more than Erskine would. (This speaks to my hesitation comparing GVT between teams generally).
b) Will he inspire forwards to play D? If he promotes even a smidgeon more of accountability from his forwards than Erskine or any other Caps D (verbally, with grizzled death stares, etc.) he will be adding something this team sorely lacks from the blueline.
Those are the things I’d think about in valuing Sutton.
The keyboard is mightier.
I think if you can get Sutton, you try to waive Erskine.
Maybe he clears, and you have even more depth, maybe not.
I don’t think Sutton would be “the piece”, but Sutton + Hanhuis/Hejda/etc… now you’re talking!
I’d waive Sloan before I’d waive Erskine.
by BradleyFightingVehicle on Feb 17, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
no sutton, but i'd love me some hamhuis and hedja
i just don’t think a hulking slow dman fits with our style of play. having good skaters who play gritty and can keep up with our fast pace style of amazing offense is better (a la hamhuis and hedja)
by Area 51 Forever on Feb 17, 2010 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
If our criteria for a new defenseman is “Better than Erskine” then we really aren’t looking to make a move. A rental needs to be top 4, and I’m not sure is Sutton is fast enough to be top 4 on a team like the Caps
Aim for the head baby Jesus
by Doncosmic on Feb 17, 2010 2:17 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
If our criteria for a new defenseman is "Better than Erskine" then we really aren’t looking to make a move. A rental needs to be top 4
Why? If the guy’s better than who would be out in his place, the team’s better off with him in there, right?
Right – go into the playoffs with the best Top 6 you can put together. Sure, it’d be nice to get a #2 and better everyone down the depth chart by simply pushing them down a spot, but upgrades to the 5/6 slots are still upgrades and still make the team better.
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I disagree. The criteria should be “does the new guy make the Caps’ top six defensemen better.”
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I’m not so sure about just top-6. I don’t really see the point in trading away a pick/prospect/combination for a guy that’s just slightly better than Erskine (a 5/6 D, in other words). Might as well then wait for Alzner/Carlson next season then, right? But top-4 D is a significant upgrade, I think, enough to be traded for, since the improvement isn’t only marginal and it’s over more TOI/gm as well than a 5/6.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 17, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t really see the point in trading away a pick/prospect/combination for a guy that’s just slightly better than Erskine (a 5/6 D, in other words). Might as well then wait for Alzner/Carlson next season then, right?
It all depends on the pick/prospect, no? I mean, if the Caps are determined to go into the playoffs with 52-55-3-26-2-4-89, wouldn’t you give up a 4th round pick to make that someone better than 4 and bump 89 off the list?
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Sure but there’s no way Sutton is had for a 4th round pick. I think I read that the Isles are looking for a 1st. I wouldn’t give that for Sutton.
They gave up Guerin for a 3rd, right? Surely Sutton can’t be worth substantially more than that if he’s just a little better than Erskine.
My ability to post is only surpassed by my ability to pinch pennies.
They gave up Guerin for a 3rd, right?
A 5th that escalated to a 3rd based on playoffs, yes. But Guerin had a no-trade clause and limited himself to essentially 5-6 nearby teams, most of whom showed no interest. So as always, depends on the bidders (I still can’t believe Dominic Moore went for a 2nd again).
My guess is Sutton is gone no matter what, so if there are too many bidders then the Caps would be wise to look elsewhere, as J.P. nicely outlined.
Lighthouse Hockey: Under contract through 2021, knees and hips be damned.
Do you know if the Caps were one of the 5-6 teams in play for Guerin? I’m guessing we were, but obviously don’t know how close we got to getting him.
On second thought, I think the Caps had cap issues at the deadline that prevented us from going after him
They did – cap and roster limit issues. Not sure how resolveable those would have been, but I’m sure they kicked the tires.
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It’s probably just hear-say but I heard that the Caps were one of the teams dragging their feet on the deal.
You’ll remember, there was a “mystery EC team” in the mix heavily but didn’t quite pull the trigger and Guerin was in limbo for a little. I heard the Caps may have been that team.
But I don’t claim to know it for a fact.
"I'm glad I got drafted first, because no one remembers number two." -- Alexandre Daigle
That was what I heard, too, though obviously that whole feet-dragging part of the story is very foggy, and whoever knew the scoop has reason to not share. Could have been Boston, too, if the rumors that they were close to landing Tkachuk were true.
Lighthouse Hockey: Under contract through 2021, knees and hips be damned.
If the Caps were dragging their feet it was because they didn’t have the cap space to make it happen and were trying to pull another deal first.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
The Caps probably didn’t want to or couldn’t waive one or two of Pothier/Clark/Poti to fit Guerin’s $4.5 million salary, like Pittsburgh did with Satan.
"I'm glad I got drafted first, because no one remembers number two." -- Alexandre Daigle
Well I don’t think Pothier was even back yet, so he was a non-factor. Didn’t PIT waive Satan earlier so they had the room? I don’t think you can waive a guy on deadline day because it takes 24 hours to clear and then you have to assign them to the AHL.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Clark and Pothier were both on LTIR at the time. And why would the Caps waive Poti?
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Because Scotty Hockey got the keys?
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I believe there was also the issue of resigning Fedorov for that season, no? Essentially it was him or Guerin?
"In the depths of winter, I learned there was in me an invincible summer" ~Albert Camus
I don’t think so. Guerin was on an expiring contract and so was Fedorov so they could have just crossed that bridge after the season. They couldn’t afford to bring in Guerin last year.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Right. I wouldn’t either. Hence, “it gets harder and harder to justify giving up a lot for Sutton.” But that wasn’t the point I was making here.
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We already have 2 guys that can bump 89. I have no clue why he’s here so to say that Sutton would be the guy to bump him doesn’t convince me.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Right, but if the brass thinks those guys spend springtime in Chocolatetown and make a move for Sutton, he bumps some folks. Put another way, if they make a move for a third-pairing D, it tells you exactly where Carlzner will be in mid-April, no?
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Yeah definitely. But I already expect both Alzner and Carlson to be in HER in the Spring (at the same time!). I’m just not so fired up to be tinkering with our 5/6 when it’s our 2/3 that needs help. Sure it could make us better, but we already have depth at those spots. I’d prefer having Shamo and Potsy as our bottom pair with a new guy in the top 4 over Sutton playing on our bottom pair and Shamo playing top 4. But that’s obvious.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Right. We all would. But you can’t make chicken salad out of ground beef.
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Right, which is why I don’t shop for ground beef when I’m in the mood for chicken.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I’d rather eat a burger than horseshit.
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What about chickenshit?
/Melrose’d
"Where are we going Morty?"
"Back to the boatyard. Somebody's about to get a fucking slap."
by Bald Pollack on Feb 17, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
I was getting hungry but now, not so much.
Now helping to keep an eye on all things Gr8 at Alex Ovetjkin.
And, of course, I’d eat the prime rib right now, even if it isn’t aged to perfection.
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0.02
I’ve spent most of my life in Atlanta, and as such got to see a lot of Andy Sutton over the years.
I’m not convinced he’s that much better than Erskine. He’s kinda slow and not very mobile. He doesn’t really fit the Capital system. He won’t be able to keep up well with Malkin, Crosby, Jeff Carter, Bergeron, Cammalleri, Kovalchuk, or whoever else the Caps will meet in the playoffs.
If you’re trying to get better in Erskine’s spot straight up, then it might work. If you’re trying to greatly improve your defensemen’s defense, I don’t think its the answer.
I also get the feeling Snow is going to want a bit much for him.
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That’s pretty much my gut feeling (and one I hope I conveyed in the post) – yes, he’s an upgrade on the back end of the top six, but probably not “the answer.”
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…yet
Game-Over Green? Canada-Over Carlson!
by Scott in Shaw on Feb 17, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
If the goal is to upgrade the bottom pairing, I’d rather have Alzner or Carlson get some more time with the big club than pick up someone like Sutton.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Feb 17, 2010 2:32 PM EST reply actions
The biggest appeal with Sutton vs. other potential D names mentioned (Hamhuis, Jackman, Souray, etc) is the cost. Of all the names mentioned, i would believe he would probably cost the least in return value (a draft pick and/or prospect). What also separates him from the others is his ‘dirty nastiness.’ He’s got plenty more than the other names mentioned and backs it up with his 6’6" frame. To those two facts alone, i would be fine if we acquired him for the playoffs. Elated? no. Happy? maybe. Satisfied? Definitely.
"If you want money, go to the bank. If you want bread, go to the bakery. If you want goals, go to the net." - Brooks Laich
"...I got the most gentlemanly player in juniors my last year. I'm a gentleman, always a gentleman." - Matt Bradley
I would be extremely dissatisfied if Sutton were the only D we traded for. I don’t care how cheap he is; at best, he’s a bottom-pairing upgrade, and that’s not going to cut it.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Feb 17, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
I would be extremely dissatisfied if Sutton were the only D we traded for.
I think it’s a little unfair to say that without knowing who’s available and at what price.
How is it unfair? I’d be dissatisfied at a personal level. Fairness doesn’t enter into the equation.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Feb 17, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Jordan beat me to it.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Feb 17, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe I’m framing the issue differently, but I’m satisfied with the front office making the best decision, now matter what that may be.
i’m going to agree with you here. I tried to frame my input is terms of cost of what we would give up. If he costs the least and doesn’t hurt the team long-term, whats the problem with acquiring him? JP already established he would be at least the 6th best D on the roster. Does that still count as a roster upgrade? Yes. In the playoffs we will need 6 dmen and if he prevents Sloan from getting on the ice, then I am for acquiring him.
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I still wouldn’t be satisfied even if no move was the best deal. Last year we did nothing because the cost of Pronger was too high. I was glad that we didn’t trade for Pronger, but not satisfied by any stretch. I’ll be satisfied when the team gets better on the bluelineso that I think they can win 4 playoff rounds.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Bingo. That’s what I meant but you articulated it way better.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Feb 18, 2010 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
I think the most pressing issue...
Related to this article, is how absolutely terrible John Erskine is.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Feb 17, 2010 2:44 PM EST reply actions
The Caps currently rank 25th on the PK.
To me, this is the first criteria I would look at in evaluating defensemen to trade for. Does he log big PK time and how does he perform in those minutes. (and more qualitatively – can he get the puck out of the zone on clearing attempts!)
The PK is a far greater deficiency on this team than either nastiness or crease clearing.
by Stormblue on Feb 17, 2010 2:45 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Yep. And Sutton is a great shotblocker and looks to be a decent penalty killer, though it’s hard to tell given his team.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
Its not like anyone here needs anymore convincing, could you have a talk with GMGM?
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have you noticed?
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Speaking of dead horses, this is where I point out that Pavel Kubina’s PK stats look pretty good.
/ducks thrown bottle
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Feb 17, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, I’ve been on the Kubina bandwagon for a while. I’d be very happy if we picked him up.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Feb 17, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
yay for dead horses
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
Are you Bruce Boudreau in disguise? Because if I’m remembering correctly, you want Flash as the return on that deal?
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
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Wouldn’t want to trade Flash at all, so no, I ain’t him in disguise.
More precisely, I’m a Pred fan who is sick of power play problems and inconsistent winger play, and I’m aware of our boatload of blueline talent, and am thus trying to pawn him off by frequenting his best fit’s SBN blog.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
inconsistent winger play
Tomas Fleischmann is surely the cure for what ails ya.
My ability to post is only surpassed by my ability to pinch pennies.
by jordanDC on Feb 17, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Obviously, you haven’t met JP Dumont.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
Are you Hamhuis’s agent, his mom, or the president of his fan club?
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Maybe this is some kind of reverse psychology thing and he just wants him out of Nashville?
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Feb 17, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
or this
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
You mean like how we are with Flash?
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
clarify?
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
Kind of a joke about us wanting to get rid of Flash.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
ah, gotcha
Sometimes this reply system confuses me.
Yeah, kinda like that, and if it benefits both teams, even better.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Great point. This is something that sometimes gets lost in the clamor for an upgrade at D.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Feb 17, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
I’d trade Erskine for him, straight up. I may even trade Erskine and a conditional draft pick for him (e.g. what the Pens gave to the Isles for Guerin). But if we’re going to overpay for a defenseman, I’d much rather that we overpay for Jan Hejda or Dan Hamhuis.
GUTEN TAAAAAAAAAAAAG!
Hejda is the crown jewel, IMO. But he’ll be costly and I doubt he moves.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I’m starting to get a little more jacked on Jackman, myself.
Driving under the influence of hockey since godknow's when.
Refresh my memory – why is it that we think Jackman is available?
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Because STL is a mess, I think. They are supposed to be sellers so apparently there are rumors about every guy on the team.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I heard somewhere, and I’m trying to hunt down sources at the moment, that Columbus is looking to move just because they’re such a mess right now.
GUTEN TAAAAAAAAAAAAG!
Someone posted a link to that effect. I’m sure they’d move Hejda for the right offer, I’m just not sure we want to be making that offer. The fact that they’d probably settle for picks and prospects helps us though.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
He’s a fairly big ticket on a club that has Erik Brewer to re-sign and, imo, STL has a tough schedule (as of Feb 1, 7 back to backs, .532% winning percentage of remaining opponents) to overcome to make the postseason this year.
Driving under the influence of hockey since godknow's when.
But St. Louis has a ton of cap space and I don’t think it’s a sure thing they re-sign Brewer. Even if they want to, I don’t think they have to make a deal now.
crown jewel of what, exactly?
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
My trade deadline wish list.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
why's that?
Don’t see how he measures up to any of the guys we’ve discussed. I’d take Jackman over him, and thats saying something.
Of course, there’s always a little bias in any argument. This is probably because I’ve seen Jason freaking slow skates Arnott make Hejda look downright minor leagueish.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
One reason is that Hejda is about twice as cheap as Jackman, and his contract only lasts through next year. That way, if it’s a bad fit, he’s easier to move.
GUTEN TAAAAAAAAAAAAG!
hejda seems to get universal praise as one of the most underpaid defenseman out there (a case where a guy’s “underrated” until so many people are saying he’s underrated that he definitely isn’t anymore). and he’s got another year on his contract.
by Natty Bumppo on Feb 17, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
(btw, i was agreeing with you wheeler.)
by Natty Bumppo on Feb 17, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
He’s on a great contract and after reading Alan Ryder’s 2009 report (at the prodding of some regulars here) I became a big fan. I really haven’t watched him much, but his numbers are great. I’m a bigger Hamhuis fan, subjectively, but I think Hejda fits the need a little better. Put him on Mike Green’s pair and he can be the defensive conscience and I have no concern about him handling top pair minutes. I do wonder whether Hamhuis could hold up as Mike Green’s partner, which is the ideal position we’d fill.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
“and thats saying something” meaning you don’t like him b/c he’s nasty to your Preds or you don’t think that much of him as D? I’ve always liked him but admittedly don’t see him much. He looked very solid the other night against the Caps.
mainly because he's a cheap shot artist
IDK, I’ve just seen Hejda get owned one too many times against Nashville to consider him a valuable pick up. Of course, playing with Mike Commodore will do that to you.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll watch him in the Olympics. Like I said, I never watch CBJ because they are boring, but Hejda looks great in Ryder’s report.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
forgive me
But who’s Ryder?
[/ignorance]
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
He does Hockey Analytics. It’s a great statistical look at player contributions. He created his own valuation scale and does annual reports after every season. It is most definitely well worth your time to check it out.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Don’t forget the intangible “rejuvenation factor.” Sutton would be coming from a team fading away in the Eastern Conference Playoff race to a top-drawer Stanley Cup contender.
He may play well above his normal level because turning 35 in March, he knows he won’t be around when the Islanders finally figure it out. This would be his best chance at a Cup.
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Sutton
I honestly think that he is playing slightly over his head at the moment – with him pretty much facing the toughest quality of competition in his defensive life (the norm for him over the last couple of years is about break-even qualComp).
I would think that slotting him against slightly easier quality of competition would get very good results – far better than Erskine imo.
But...
Does anyone else agree with me when I say a trade with Nashville for Jordin Tootoo and Dan Hamhuis would benefit this team much more than sutton? Top 4 puck moving dman and the middleweight/pest/answer-the-bell-consistently-guy that has been discussed recently as the best solution to our toughness problem in the “should we acquire a goon” discussion.
by Area 51 Forever on Feb 17, 2010 6:04 PM EST reply actions
I’m not sure anyone could disagree with that.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Tootoo
is definitely, 100% the type of guy Washington would want to fill that toughness need.
Problem is, not for sale. Just reupped, and would be a PR disaster if he was traded.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
But do you think tootoo fits the bill as our "somewhat skilled pest/quasi enforcer" that some has suggested we need?
I personally think we could trade gordon (even though he is a fan favorite) and his not so hot contract to nashville with one of the expendable dman of ours and a couple good but not blue chip prospects to basically kill to birds (or needs) with one stone (or trade).
by Area 51 Forever on Feb 17, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
I do, but as Chris points out, he’s not likely to be moved.
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Although, Gordon is a 76 and Tootoo a 77… and Hamhuis at 82 to Flash’s 81….
/NHL10’d
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Mike Green
Is a 76 in my PC copy of NHL 08.
#justsayin
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I’d love Tootoo but as CB says, he’s not moving anywhere. I don’t think Gordon’s contract is bad at all, he’s cheap and expiring, but I’d take Tootoo despite all the little things Gordon does for us.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
definitely
From what JP wrote the other day, Tootoo would be what you need. He’s kinda small, but will fight (and whoop) anything or anybody. I saw him turn down a fight once. The same guy comes back later in the game and keeps pulling on him. Finally, Tootoo had enough.
Thats just a singular example. He’s really improved production-wise this year and drawn the most penalties on the team because before, when another team’s goon tried to provoke him, he’d go after him. Now, he just waits around till the ref calls an interference or roughing.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
That’s great. He always needed some work with his discipline so that’s good to see. I hope McArdle got an instigator for that. He was clearly holding Tootoo before that finally went down. Ridiculous.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Seconded. Also, those third jerseys are sweet.
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speaking of 3rd jerseys
When will the Caps get some?
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
The most common one I see fans coming up with is a blue variant of the other two, with a weagle crest in front. I’ve yet to see one I’m really, really sold on, though.
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but
Are there any rumblings of one from higher up, besides fan mock-ups?
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
I haven’t heard anything on Japers’ Rink, and they’d be the first to know.
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Why make a new one? I’d go with the old school red, white, and blue away uniforms.
by JimCareyFanClub on Feb 17, 2010 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, take this off-topic stuff to the Clips post.
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the best part
Is the Florida announcers! “Don’t like the way Tootoo went about that. Dirty play.”
Dirty play my ass. McArdle got entirely more than he could handle.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
Oh nevermind burton answer that
Is he really that untouchable, or do we just need to reach a little to get him. Because he is pretty young for a pest/enforcer type guy so I wouldn’t mind overpaying a little bit to get him for the long term.
by Area 51 Forever on Feb 17, 2010 6:13 PM EST reply actions
Long term we are waiting on SDR. I don’t think you can overpay for a third or fourth line guy if you are GMGM. The Caps are going to need to lean heavily on their farm to stay competitive in the coming years.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
eh
He’s not untouchable like Weber, Suter, or Wilson, but due to the new contract it would take exactly the right deal for him to go. He would be available in a deal for Semin, for example. A Hamhuis/Santorelli/Tootoo deal for Semin would probably work for Poile, but like I say, he’s so damn popular it’d be similar to shooting yourself in the marketing foot.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
could we instead throw in a expiring dman contract of one of the P's?
then gordon, and couple good but not blue chip prospects?
by Area 51 Forever on Feb 17, 2010 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
doubt it
Like I said, unless its true blue-chip talent coming back and Nashville clearly gets the better of it, he won’t move.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
i personally would be willing to give up one of our many blue chips
cept for the two kid goalies and canada killer and alzner. for hamhuis and tootoo don’t you think it would be worth it? we can definetly resign hammer also. cost the same as poti or poither cept he is better.
by Area 51 Forever on Feb 17, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
Aside from the goalies and Carlznerson, who are our blue chips?
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
i mean brouchard and/or perrault arent that far off
and i dont think they will cracking our lineup for consistent minutes any time soon
by Area 51 Forever on Feb 17, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
From Espn Insider today on who caps should go get
The guy to get: D Marek Zidlicky
The Wild have a fair number of offensive defensemen, especially after acquiring Cam Barker from the Chicago Blackhawks. With the addition of Barker, the presence of Brent Burns and the pending unrestricted free agency of Zidlicky, it appears Zidlicky could be available in the land of 10,000 lakes. The Czech defender is a proven puck mover who makes a great first pass, can quarterback the power play and can help the team’s already dynamite transition game. He would make a fast team even faster while helping the team clear the puck from its own zone. — Pollock
How far apart are Zidlicky and Pothier, game-wise?
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Wouldn't he cost too much for a rental?
by Area 51 Forever on Feb 17, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
ooooh
Ask me about Zids, pleaaaase… ;)
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
he may be worth
a Frito and a signed jock strap from Tyler Sloan.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I heard MIN was pushing hard to re-sign him. Maybe they can’t but I don’t think they are shopping him much.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
they're not
Shopping him a whole lot. I had way more than I wanted of him as a Predator. Gave me more ulcers than Kevin Klein ever will.
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by Chris Burton on Feb 17, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
I just don’t see it. The PP has been great, and Green and Ovie stay out on the point for most of the PP time anyway. And, though I haven’t seen too much of Zidlicky, I get the impression he would be a defensive downgrade from Poti and Pothier.
Who knows, maybe the Caps are just saying “screw it, we’re going to try to outscore everybody 7-6.”
yeah i was about to say
we have 2 of the best PP pointmen in the league. and semin could run the point in a pinch if need be.
by Area 51 Forever on Feb 17, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
seems like zids is just a PP specialist, but our PP is already extremely special
so i guess its a no to zids
by Area 51 Forever on Feb 17, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
If we're talking defensemen who can be acquired for little to nothing...
What about Brent Sopel? Yeah, his cap hit is a bit high. Yeah, he’s signed through next year. Yeah, he’s not a big hitter or a crease clearer, but I think he’s a decent upgrade over Pothier for a similar cap hit.
Plus, he was almost a Cap. (Seriously, Chicago was almost willing to trade him and Dustin Byfuglien for Nyls? Seriously? I mean, I understand why they didn’t pull the trigger, but they thought about that? Seriously?)
GUTEN TAAAAAAAAAAAAG!
Well with Barker out of the way, Chicago doesn’t really need to deal as much as they needed to before, but I"m sure they’d like the breathing room dumping Sopel would get them. I think he’s better than Sha-Mo, but I don’t like that he’s signed through next year at too much, so no I don’t think we should.
The consensus seems that Sutton isn’t that much better than Erskine (or others), but the Caps are a very, very good team. It’s going to be difficult to find players out there (that are available and not asking for a king’s ransom) that are going to improve the team drastically.
They need these incremental improvements right now, and Sutton may be that guy. I’m not that enamored with the guy, but maybe when he gets on a team that actually can win a few games, he’ll push his game to a higher level.
No playoff experience
Why would we want a guy who hasn’t won a playoff game in 11 years in the NHL? (He’s 0 for 4)
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Florida
|
55 | 27 | 17 | 11 | 65 |
|
Washington
|
55 | 28 | 22 | 5 | 61 |
|
Winnipeg
|
57 | 26 | 25 | 6 | 58 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
55 | 24 | 25 | 6 | 54 |
|
Carolina
|
56 | 20 | 25 | 11 | 51 |
(updated 2.13.2012 at 1:00 PM EST)
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