Fighting The Urge To Add An Enforcer
by David Getz on Feb 16, 2010 11:30 AM EST
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PrintWith the unpleasant images of Saturday night's Matt Bradley/Cam Janssen/Quintin Laing incident still fresh in our minds, the Olympic break providing ample time to discuss ways to tinker with the team, and the trade deadline looming, it seems only natural that Capitals fans starting wondering whether the team needs an enforcer. The fact that a number of notable pugilists including Georges Laraque, Donald Brashear, and Brad May should all be available for a very low price (as low as nothing, really) only makes the prospect more appealing. Despite this, George McPhee and the Capitals front office ought to resist whatever temptation they might have to go out and pick up an enforcer because justifying the roster and salary cap space one would command isn't worth what they'd bring to the team, a fact that says more about the value of having a true heavyweight on the roster than it does about what it would take to get one.
For starters let's take a look at the incident that spurned this post: Janssen's hit on Matt Bradley. In theory the presence of a Capitals enforcer would make Janssen think twice about laying that type of hit, for fear of swift and severe retribution. In practice, that's not the case. Why? Simply put, guys like Janssen (or going back a little further, Colton Orr and David Koci) aren't afraid to fight. Guys like Janssen like to fight. Hell, guys like Janssen need to fight to keep their NHL jobs. Giving them the opportunity to do that doesn't exactly sound like a strong deterrent.
Undoubtedly there are people who will read that and think it misses the point - that the league's heavyweights won't be deterred by the goon sitting at the end of the bench, but the middleweights, frequent hitters, and the pests of the world will. This claim too is dubious. Take, for example, the case of Cal Clutterbuck and Steve Ott from the February 2nd game between the Wild and the Stars. Clutterbuck, as he usually does, started the game off landing a big hit on a Stars player, later fought Ott (though whether this was direct retribution was unclear) and lost handily. Later in the game Clutterbuck had another big hit, this time on Stars leading scorer Brad Richards. Ott fought Clutterbuck again, and won again, though that's mostly irrelevant.
The point is that despite being beating handily in a fight with Ott early in the game, Clutterbuck was still willing to go out and hit the Stars best offensive player even with Ott on the ice. Again the fact is that the threat of a fight simply isn't an effective deterrent. Players like Clutterbuck, Dustin Brown, and Ryan Callahan are going to keep hitting opposing players every chance they get because it's what they do as hockey players. By the same token, guys like Sean Avery, Alex Burrows, and Matt Cooke are going to keep playing the agitating role because it's what they do as hockey players. It's how the help their team win, and the threat of a fight with a better, more experienced fighter simply isn't going to change that; if it were, most of the guys wouldn't have made it to the NHL in the first place.
There's still one rationale for keeping an enforcer on the roster, and that's to keep the majority of NHLers in line. After all, most of the guys in the the League can't stand toe-to-toe with the elite enforcers, aren't hitting every chance they get, and don't see agitating the opposition as major part of their job description. Could the presence of an enforcer keep guys like Daniel Briere and Ryan Whitney - guys who have a history of using their sticks liberally, but not dropping the gloves - from getting in an extra shot or two on Caps players? Sure - but the team doesn't need a top tier pugilist to do it. This is where team toughness comes in to play because even though guys like Brooks Laich, Shaone Morrisonn, and Mike Knuble aren't going to be able to stand their against the League's best fighters, they have the attitude and ability it takes to keep the lightweights from taking any liberties.
So, ultimately, the heavyweights aren't going to be deterred, the middleweight hitters and pests aren't going to be deterred, and the lightweights are already going to have more than they can handle if they take a cheap shot, what good could an enforcer possibly do? And if the guy isn't going to do any good, why would the Capitals need him?
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The fact that a number of notable pugilists including Georges Laraque, Donald Brashear, and Brad May should all be available for a very low price (as low as nothing, really) only makes the prospect more appealing
I feel like i’m singing a Queen song here…
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
Oh mamma mia mamma mia
Driver and head Muckety-Muck of The Pavel Kubina Bandwagon
XBox Live: Oinkvechkin
LORD PALMERSTON!!
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Feb 16, 2010 11:32 AM EST reply actions
Nail Hit on the Head
By the same token, guys like Sean Avery, Alex Burrows, and Matt Cooke are going to keep playing the agitating role because it’s what they do as hockey players.
this is the the thing a lot of people keep missing. an enforcer isn’t going to stop the play of these guys because they don’t fight. they do their thing, but never – for the most part – get into the fights to answer for their actions.
Also about players like brier and orpik who like to use their sticks, bringing on a fighter will bring on more instigator penalties when these guys turtle. More to the point, winning a fight never seems like its the goal in a hockey fight. Sure you beat up Matt Bradley, but we still scored 3 more goals than you, how do you like ’dem apples?
What is needed is more hitters, guys that punish within the rules. I feel like we have these players, guys just need to wise up and not try to fight or at least not get an instigator and better yet try to draw instigator penalties.
by snowburnt on Feb 16, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
More to the point, winning a fight never seems like its the goal in a hockey fight.
Could not agree with you more, but I think most people get caught up in the macho emotion stuff of it and just want to see their guy win the fight, even if that’s not the purpose of fighting. Sure, it can help, but Talbot v. Carcillo should be required viewing for anyone that thinks fighting is about winning the fight.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
This is a very serious question: Do the Caps already have an “enforcer” on his way up in the system?
I ask because my inaugural Capitals Farm Report includes some nice video of a very scrappy Stefan Della Rovere slugging his way to and through his 100th PIM on the season. I’m not familiar enough yet with the rest of his game, but he’s the captain of his team, a WJC two-time medalist and clearly not just a goon.
Now helping to keep an eye on all things Gr8 at Alex Ovetjkin.
Della Rovere is one tough customer.
The best part about him is that he does seem to have a “stop” setting. He knows when to quit, when to pull up on his check and not put the guy through the ice to the concrete… I haven’t had a chance to really watch him in action (much) yet (outside pre-season), but in 45 games played in his fourth season for the Barrie Colts, he has 16 goals and 19 assists this season – not bad for a pest-type player! That puts him at .355 goals per game, .755 points per game this year; last year, he was 27 goals, 24 assists in 57 games played, for a .473 goals per game, and .944 points per game, so he’s had some dropoff in that regard… but he’s not quite 20 years old (his birthday’s next week), and has time to pull that back up.
He’s small(ish) at 5’11", 200# – and is a left-shooting left wing. Last season, he played two games for the Stingrays and had one assist and 6 PIMs.
I need a snappy signature...
by IRockTheRed on Feb 16, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
His team is also much better last year and he isn’t asked to carry as much of the scoring load. I think that probably has something to do with it though it could be a down year.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
He seems to be more like a pest in the Ott/Avery/Cooke/Burrows mold than an actual enforcer. And frankly, if he develops a game similar to those players then he will be a hell of a lot more valuable to the Caps than if he were an enforcer.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 16, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
That’s my take on it.
Sean Avery without the arse-haberdashery would be a good thing for the team. :-)
I need a snappy signature...
by IRockTheRed on Feb 16, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
I’d say he’s not an enforcer, and I’m glad. He’s got some legitimate skill and can play hockey; he didn’t get on Team Canada for nothing. He’s going to be more of a pest type, and fans of 29 other teams will hate him and his punchable face, but he’ll quickly be a hometown favorite, especially if he’s more willing to drop the gloves than some of the more notorious pests.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Not an enforcer but...
would the Caps be wise in picking up someone who does the little things that make the “middleweights” so damn annoying? We already had Cooke. Does it smack of bad form going out and getting someone like him, or to a lesser extent, Clutterbuck?
So, ultimately, the heavyweights are going to be deterred, the middleweight hitters and pests aren’t going to be deterred, and the lightweights are already going to have more than they can handle is they take a cheap shot, what good could an enforcer possibly do?
I cannot imagine a situation in which the Caps would actually need a pure enforcer on the ice. Our team is built on skill, not on being thugs (opinion of other fanbases notwithstanding). The best way for the Caps to perform enforcement is by team toughness and by punishing the other team on the scoreboard. Having a goon on the bench would not have stopped Janssen from nailing Brads.
I need a snappy signature...
Sounds Odd
The best arguements for an enforcer is to deal with punks like carcillo, who seem willing to fight out of their weight class against guys like brads and gaborik. knowing that we had a laraque on the pine who might be willing to exact retritbution on danny briere to pay for carcillo’s shenanigans might be useful again, you might not need a top level enforcer out there but a good solid middleweight.
the only other reason for a heavyweight is the old “fire up the team” concept where two heavyweights stage a brawl. stupid but i do recall it worked for the pens in the playoffs last year.
we could always use someone willing to bang in the corners and drop the mitts when needed. hate to put that all on brads which is where it is right now.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
Brads and Erskine… who is closer to a heavyweight type, but we don’t want him getting concussed again…
I need a snappy signature...
by IRockTheRed on Feb 16, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
The best arguements for an enforcer is to deal with punks like carcillo, who seem willing to fight out of their weight class against guys like brads and gaborik.
Dan Carcillo lead the league in PIMs last year, I’ll bet it wasn’t all fights with guys like Brads.
the only other reason for a heavyweight is the old "fire up the team" concept where two heavyweights stage a brawl. stupid but i do recall it worked for the pens in the playoffs last year.
It wasn’t a heavyweight — Goddard never got a sweater. What fired them up was Max Talbot taking on Dan Carcillo, getting his face stoved in and “shhhhing” the crowd. Or Evgeni Malkin woke up, one of the two.
we could always use someone willing to bang in the corners and drop the mitts when needed. hate to put that all on brads which is where it is right now.
Knuble dropped the mitts when Ovechkin got boarded against the Pens, Laing immediately hopped on Janssen, ShaMo and Erskine have both heeded the call before.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Feb 16, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
the problems with them “heeding the call” is that it led directly to instigator penalties. As nice as it would be for the refs to spot them a fight because the hit was “dirty” it’s a ridiculous concept to try to squeeze into a rule book that is jam packed with subjective calls as it is. I’d have rather had Knuble smash Adams during play than try to fight him, follow Ovie’s lead, make them pay with deliberate unrelenting hard checking rather than a fight, especially from one of our top 6 forwards or top 4 defensemen.
one last thing, I don’t care if people complain that nobody is standing up for the other players because they don’t drop their mitts after a questionable hit. Stand up for them by playing the game, not by being a side show.
Until one of the Young Guns gets hurt. Then we’ll keep playing the game but it won’t be nearly as effective.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
when i talk about someone willing to drop the mitts, i wasnt necessarily referring to exacting retribution. i’m talking about a guy who will bang the dmen on the forecheck and play the physical game. (like what others try to do to green) if they need to drop em as a result, so be it. right now the only one who does that consistently is brads, and even then he’s not as active as a guy like cooke. maybe that’s BB’s system.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Feb 16, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
The best arguements for an enforcer is to deal with punks like carcillo, who seem willing to fight out of their weight class against guys like brads and gaborik.
Why? Is there any reason to think Carcillo’s unwilling to fight anyone? Look at his fight card. It has guys like Krys Barch, David Clarkson, Darcy Hordichuk, Raitis Ivanans, and Jamal Mayers on it.
knowing that we had a laraque on the pine who might be willing to exact retritbution on danny briere to pay for carcillo’s shenanigans
That’s not an enforcer, it’s a goon. And it’s a brand of hockey I’d hate to see the Caps play. The eye for an eye stuff doesn’t do it for me.
After the Carcillo-Bradley incident, Carcillo said he dropped the gloves against Bradley because he lead the Capitals in fights (all of, what, 3 at the time?). I went to YouTube and searched “Carcillo Brashear” thinking maybe I missed a tussle or two from when Brash was on the team and Carcillo went after the Caps leader in fighting majors. Yup, nothing. :)
Carcillo was a deadline acquisition from PHX. He wasn’t in the East until then and Brash was hurt for the only (I think) Caps v. PHI game when Carcillo was on the roster last year.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
OK, substitute Brashear for Parros on a YouTube search. Or Orr. That’s the point. The “tweener enforcers” (pests who fight ) like Carcillo and Avery aren’t going to drop the gloves against a true heavyweight enforcer. Carcillo was tossed after the Bradley incident, so was Janssen (not to forget Avery’s sitting in the box after trying to instigate something with Erskine in the playoffs last year). So why try to acquire a player to match up against these guys when they are just going to a) make boneheaded plays that draw dumb penalties anyway or b) won’t fight a Laraque/Brashear/Parros/Orr bruiser?
Unless we’re talking Iginlia who will drop the gloves and has a little bit of an offensive upside. :)
i agree, its not what i want to see either. but the fact is carcillo will also go with guys like gaborik and brads as well as guys in his weight class. when did you ever see brash go after a guy below his class. i can only think of shananhan a few years back. now shanny’s no shrinking violet but he was no heavy weight, particularly at the time. and brash was reluctant to go even then.
the only way to prevent that is for carcillo to know he’s going to put his guy in jeopardy by his actions. again, i’m not using this as an arguement for the caps to get their own knuckldragger, just pointing out one instance where having a guy like that might help.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Feb 16, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with everything said by DMG except the lightweights argument. I don’t think the prospect of Laich, ShaMo or Knuble getting in their grills is going to give them any pause. That said, I think “team toughness” can, but I think of team toughness more in the “They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue” sense. And I think you do that with close to the line physicality. If Briere pulls a stunt, sure you follow that with a scrum. But then, every time he’s on the ice, you hit him. And when Gagne is on the ice, you hit him. And when Giroux is on the ice, you hit him. You let them know that you’re going to make life miserable for their skill guys if they do that crap. And other than Ovie and maybe Brads, I don’t think we really have that element. I think we could use a little more of it.
Yes but there is a huge difference b/w having Barrett Jackman nailing people and having George s Laraque on the team.
Free Eric Fehr!
Did it matter that Janssen get his face busted so he learns a lesson? No. It was more about Brads knowing that when he’s in trouble he has ~20 guys that are willing to get his back, even if it means a broken nose and a “loss” at hockeyfights.com.
we're not gonna allow someone like Downie to go after him.
There’s better ways to stand up for your mate than putting your team on the PK. Lay the lumber for the next 60 minutes, clear the crease with a vengance and run up the score, that’s how you should get his back.
So you vote for an outright ban on fights?
Scoring goals is fine, but a team going down 9-2 vs. 8-2 because the Caps are “makin’em pay on the PP” isn’t going to deter someone from a cheap shot, in fact it likely will invite more.
we're not gonna allow someone like Downie to go after him.
I don’t have a problem with sticking up for your teammates, as in what was done after the hit on Bradley.
I don’t have a problem with “staged” fights.
When two grown men decide they want to drop the gloves and beat on each other, that’s on them, and personally, injured time based on such a fight, if it’s unpaid, will do more to reduce those types of fights than anything else.
What I do have a problem with is fights that break out after a LEGAL check.
I need a snappy signature...
But then, every time he’s on the ice, you hit him. And when Gagne is on the ice, you hit him. And when Giroux is on the ice, you hit him. You let them know that you’re going to make life miserable for their skill guys
Shouldn’t this be the default setting? Why do we need to be prompted to do that?
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Rob Parker on Feb 16, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly, why does the team need to take a cheap shot before they hit Gaborik, Giroux, Malkin?
we're not gonna allow someone like Downie to go after him.
Rec * 1000
The only thing you left out is that there’s even a chance that having an enforcer ENCOURAGES the rough stuff.
One way that might happen is as follows, Brash last year was very good about not fighting somebody when they’re just trying to wake up a team, so if they can’t goad the heavy-weight into a dance then perhaps they take liberties with one of our guys to force him to fight.
Another way that might happen is that guys like Briere are NEVER going to fight so there’s even a (small) chance that he figures if you don’t have a heavy-weight, anything he does will hang around his own head, where if you do have a thug, your thug will just fight his thug when he steps out of line. Cool. No skin off his back, why not!
There are probably other ways it might encourage bad behavoir that I’m not even thinking of, but those are at least two possibilities.
Excellent analysis.
PuckDaddy be damned, I'm putting CincoCinco on the back of a Schultz jersey!
by Chris meet Alex on Feb 16, 2010 12:50 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
The only thing you left out is that there’s even a chance that having an enforcer ENCOURAGES the rough stuff.
I don’t think the Caps need an enforcer, but the one argument you could make for one is that a Caps enforcer would like be the focus of other teams enforcers and goons.
For instance, if guys like Koci and Jansenn feel they need to earn their keep by doing SOMETHING notable each game, wouldn’t it be better they fought a caps enforcer than going after Green or Bradley.
Again, just playing Devils advocate. There have been several games where the other team didn’t even dress an enforcer because they were playing the Caps.
I see your point, but my recollection is that when those guys hit the ice, they don’t pick on the other teams enforcer, they pick on the other teams skill guys which draws the enforcer over to them. i.e. I don’t recall Brash putting a lot of hits on the other teams enforcer, but rather the other teams blue-liners and skill guys and GETTING the attention of the enforcer (which inevitably winds up in a do-si-do).
But, that’s just my recollection, you may have a point there, advocate of said devil.
PuckDaddy be damned, I'm putting CincoCinco on the back of a Schultz jersey!
by Chris meet Alex on Feb 16, 2010 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
I DO NOT WANT FIGHTING IN THIS GAME! And we should be picketing the league’s front office to eliminate this part of the game that most of us hate.
That being said, until the league takes real steps to rid us all of the shameful part of this game (the unpunished instigator/goon/criminal-on-ice who is allowed to freely take runs at skilled players), are we playing within the “rules” and realities of actual play by ignoring the need for more sandpaper?
DMG says below that, “Scoring more goals than the other team gets it done, playoffs and regular season.” However, the point of the original poster was that goals are much more difficult to score in the playoffs because of the increase in physical/rough play. I thought DMG’s comment was a bit like taking a badminton racquet to a fence post there. In a perfect world, he’s right, of course. But my experience tells me that his assertion will be cold comfort come May/June when the wet blanket that is rougher play gets tossed over our skilled guys without just repercussions.
The reality is that in the playoffs, referee’s whistles are about as hard to find as a two way/goal scoring/gritty/fast/big/low-cap-hit UFA at the trade deadline. It’s how things are set up (culturally) and the league doesn’t intend to change that (evidently). They want that kind of physicallity in the playoffs for ratings and the teams that deliver that get a “wink, wink..nudge, nudge” to do so.
The absence of a fighter (or stiffer league penalty enforcement) does have repercussions that I feel are real. For example, these kids have no respect for each other anymore and target other players freely for elimination because of it. There’s no regard for the health and well being of their opponents (Janssen, Cormier, Roy (coach!), Koci…). It’s being taught at the grass roots! Careers are shortened, team play suffers, and fans feel short changed because the league refuses to do anything about these guys. 3 games? 10 games? Please…these players need to be weeded out as their transgressions occur and at the very least they should be out of action for 3 times (random number) as long as the player they put on IR. Shoot, they should get automatic time off just for attempting the hit (I think CMA posted on this recently).
Some argue that fighters serve a player self-policing role and ensure that the “code” is honored, or else.
So, do we continue to stamp our feet and cross our arms at the league and wait a few more years/decades for an effective NHL reaction to these cheap shot goons while we bathe ourselves in Hart/Richard/President/Vezina (I wish) trophies with the most exciting offense in hockey for the next ten years with no cup to show for it? Sounds pyrrhic, at best. Or do we take really good notes, protest loudly, and get what we need to do the job and continue to adjust our team effectively (Chimera) when opportunities arise in order to address the realities of today’s game?
I say instead of a goon, we should continue to get smart, fast, tough players and fill holes as needed. Chimera was a genius move and that doesn’t happen often. But maybe these types of guys are available with the frequency needed to keep the Caps physically responsible and ready to answer the bell when the goons come calling. Noobs, Laich, Ovie, Brads and Chimmy… a combination of players that we didn’t have last year. I think all we need now is a stand up and semi-talented D man— not a fighter, necessarily.
"More Gary Thorne, please."
And we should be picketing the league’s front office to eliminate this part of the game that most of us hate.
You got a mouse in your pocket? Who are these “us” that you speak of? I’ve never seen a poll that showed that hockey fans want fighting banned, and my sense is that most fans do approve of fighting in some capacity.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
You’re probably right, but I’d love fighting to be gone completely.
But that’s a WHOLE nuther can o worms
PuckDaddy be damned, I'm putting CincoCinco on the back of a Schultz jersey!
by Chris meet Alex on Feb 16, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
It is, for sure. I’m just curious, for you or any other anti-fighting fan, how much European hockey have you watched?
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Hey those Euros brutalize eachother. There was a game suspended not that long ago. Looked more like the final scene from Slap Shot than a hockey game.
we're not gonna allow someone like Downie to go after him.
Right, but they do it with their sticks. I don’t think that’s an optimal solution. Anyone that can should also find a guy that played pro in Europe and ask for some stories. Hysterical.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I haven’t watched more than a few minutes here and there of European hockey so you definitely have a broader base to draw from here, but I still hold to the theory I put forth in my fanpost about Colin Campbell (and yes, I know that referencing your own story will give you hairy palms and make you blind) that fighting wouldn’t be necessarily in a league strongly disciplined like the NFL. I don’t think I should worry about that because I hear Bettman and the boys are planning on instituting a sound disciplinary plan right after they put Phoenix and Atlanta under their pillow for the Financial Solvency Fairy to leave them 47 million.
I know, I know, that’s impossible, Bettman and the boys couldn’t put together a plan and follow it… total fairy tale.
Thus I’m well aware that fighting is going nowhere, anytime soon. I just don’t have to like it.
PuckDaddy be damned, I'm putting CincoCinco on the back of a Schultz jersey!
by Chris meet Alex on Feb 17, 2010 1:03 AM EST up reply actions
I lumped the whole cheap shot and resulting fighting culture together here. Maybe a bit of broadstroking on my part, but for me, there’s no need for fighting in the game. Me and Mr. Jingles say so.
"More Gary Thorne, please."
Just as long as you think it through. It’s not so simple as just removing fighting.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
For sure. It’s a culture thing and any change is glacial. But I brought my 5 year old kid to a game (Caps vs. Av’s here in Denver) in December and it changed my perspective. We had great seats and my son had his Caps jersey/hat on. It was a thrill. Until the Koci hit on Green (about 7 rows in front of us) and then the fight (ok, not a Donneybrook, but still). My son didn’t know what to think/say but was worried that everyone was ok. Not sure if it was a result of that night, but he has declined to go to any more games with me since then. So, I take my older daughter (13) who can put hockey extracurriculars into better perspective. Granted, hockey is competing with a lot for my son’s athletic attentions here in Colorado, but this is an NHL marketing fear realized in a time when several franchises around the league (not here) are entertaining relocation to salvage failed fan relationships. The game is too ingrained in my DNA to ever lose me, and the Caps even more so. But, cheap hits and fighting? The fewer the better.
"More Gary Thorne, please."
by ZamMan on Feb 16, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ahhh, the story about your son is interesting… I was wondering why the turnaround. I was starting to think that I was getting confused about who used to call me a pussy. It WAS you after all. Whew! I was starting to worry about REALLY early onset Alzheimers!
PuckDaddy be damned, I'm putting CincoCinco on the back of a Schultz jersey!
by Chris meet Alex on Feb 17, 2010 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
I DO NOT WANT FIGHTING IN THIS GAME!
See, now you’re mocking me! Shout “come on guys!” to the bench ONE TIME and you’re branded a spaz for life. So beit.
I might argue a teensy bit that the refs swallowing their whistles in the playoffs has more of an impact on letting obstruction penalties go than letting go physical play that crosses the line. IMO quality teams in the playoffs are usually fearful of playing goons much and guys that cross the line are often afraid to skate out of position to make that big (over-the-line) hit and end up digging the puck out of their nets as a result… But in general valid points.
PuckDaddy be damned, I'm putting CincoCinco on the back of a Schultz jersey!
by Chris meet Alex on Feb 16, 2010 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
Hmmm…disagree. Lines are crossed a’plenty in the playoffs, obstruction and stick checking play not withstanding. And, it doesn’t take the goons to do the dirtywork exclusively, either.
I was not mocking you. I was merely displaying that you have swayed me over from the dark side on fighting. Openly. Publicly. You win, OK?!?!?!
"More Gary Thorne, please."
I agree. Godard didn’t dress in the playoffs; goons rarely do. And fighting goes down a lot. The PPs drop, but that has much more to do with fewer obstruction calls than you see in the regualr season.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
OK. But, I say to you both that the obstruction/grabbing liberties during the playoffs can be offset by more toughness/strength/sandpaper on our part. Again, keeping the opponent honest where the officials refuse to do so. How magical is Semin with Dupuis able to climb on his back. Once the speed is mitigated, so is the skill difference (again by degrees but maybe enough to level an ice sheet between two unevenly matched offenses).
I know you’re not really saying this but the relaxation of the obstruction rules is every bit egregious (by degrees) as not coming down on cheap shots in the regular season (as we’ve been discussing). It’s a blatant non application of the rules that changes the way a team has to prepare and play in order to win. If you don’t set your team up for this reality in advance, you’re left scrambling for your mojo when it happens. So, now I’m on a tangent focused on the refs changing the game. It’s just that it all relates to the NHL front offices and which type of game they want to market.
"More Gary Thorne, please."
DMG says below that, "Scoring more goals than the other team gets it done, playoffs and regular season." However, the point of the original poster was that goals are much more difficult to score in the playoffs because of the increase in physical/rough play. I thought DMG’s comment was a bit like taking a badminton racquet to a fence post there. In a perfect world, he’s right, of course. But my experience tells me that his assertion will be cold comfort come May/June when the wet blanket that is rougher play gets tossed over our skilled guys without just repercussions.
If the players become less productive during the playoffs, that has to do with the players, not the style they play.
Agreed. Which is why I advocate for players who are better suited for a playoff style game. I just don’t think there will be the space on the ice for our regular season style of play that has gotten us this far.
And, I don’t want all this discussion to paint me into ‘the world’s gonna end in April" corner. I like who we’re developing into without the goons and I think with one or two more pieces we will be a juggernaut for the next 3-5 years.
"More Gary Thorne, please."
I sorta agree, but as someone wrote earlier (I think DMG), who are you going to sit in place of a grit guy? I think I like this lineup with maybe the addition of a second line center (who likely isn’t going to be a grit guy) or a top D man, who likely isn’t either. Leaving only a top notch stay at home D man who might have some grit, which I’d LOVE to find so long as he’s better than our current D options. Unfortunately I didn’t see that guy listed in the “who’s available at the deadline” list.
It’s easy to forget sometimes that this is probably the most skilled team in the whole league, and that finding more skilled players at the deadline (even for your grind players) is not an easy thing.
PuckDaddy be damned, I'm putting CincoCinco on the back of a Schultz jersey!
by Chris meet Alex on Feb 17, 2010 1:16 AM EST up reply actions
we need a true enforcer about as much as OV needs a pre game “fluffer”…
OV seems to take care of himself that way…just like the team seems to take care of each other…we don’t need this…
burn them in the penalty box.
Caps need to be more physical with the group they have. There are a bunch of guys on this team that are big and could toughen up a bit. Fehr, Laich, Chimera, Knuble, Steckel, are all guys with low fight totals and are 6’1" or taller and over 200lbs. If they would just accept their roles and stop trying to be Ovechkin the Caps would be fine.
The national media likes to point out the Caps holes in the defense and goalie. I look at our grit as the weakness. Do we need a heavyweight? Probably not but across the board we need to be more aggressive, take more roughing & fighting penalties and stop the lazy or soft stick penalties.
I really don’t think it’s fair to accuse Laich, Knuble, or Steckel of “trying to be Ovechkin”. I think those guys all know their roles and embrace them.
I’m not sure they should be fighting more, because I don’t see why they should. Questionable/cheap hits have been responded to of late, so that’s not an issue, and I don’t see much value in fighting for the sake of fighting. What does that leave?
I wouldn’t say fighting for the sake of fighting, but I’d love to see those guys, especially Laich, play with more of an edge. (As I’ve said before) It’s one thing to go to the tough areas, it’s another thing to make the tough areas tough. A guy that had a bit more taste for blood wouldn’t hurt our lineup.
/cue SDR man crush
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
When healthy and clicking we have between 2.5 and 3 scoring lines, and the best 4th line in the NHL (all of whom PK). Which guy would someone want to sit in order to get an enforcer in the game? That’s 5 minutes of ice and that messes up our lines, etc. I’d rather just have the best hockey players.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
best 4th line? How ’bout Ottawa?
J. Ruutu 10+10 Chris Kelly 11+15 Chris Neal 7+9
Not to take anything away from our 4th line, I love them all and they do PK as well as you can expect from them.
Is that serious? I’ll take our 4th line over that every single day. We have two great face off men, one righty and one lefty, and a fast wing that can chip in goals, take the body, and bring heart and soul to the team. I’m not sure I’d take any one of the OTT trio over any of ours.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
finesse guys dont get it done in the playoffs, so if you want to keep having a solid team that does well/ fights for the presidents cup then stick with the not fighting train of thought. if you want to have a team that goes deep into the playoffs and wins a cup along the way, the team needs to toughen up.
i dont call taking a bunch of shots to the head much of a response to the Bradley hit. And Knuble for as big as he is should have demolished the Pens guy after he hit Ovechkin- the guy should have left a trail of blood leaving the ice. where was the retribution against Kunitz for the cross-check to Varleys head last spring? we dont need 1 guy on the team willing to go to bat for his teammates, we need all the guys on the team willing to do whatever it takes to win every battle on the ice to win a cup.
remember if you have a guy go in the box for fighting so does the other team. dont worry about the lines. i am not trying to talk Ovechkin and Backstrom into batteling 4th liners.
remember if you have a guy go in the box for fighting so does the other team.
But the 2 for instigating you pick up in addition…
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
And Knuble for as big as he is should have demolished the Pens guy after he hit Ovechkin- the guy should have left a trail of blood leaving the ice. where was the retribution against Kunitz for the cross-check to Varleys head last spring?
…and then you get “instigator” and “intent to injure” and “suspended 3-5 games” and all sorts of unpleasantries we do NOT need.
No.
I need a snappy signature...
finesse guys dont get it done in the playoffs
Not true. Scoring more goals than the other team gets it done, playoffs and regular season. Like Gould Old Days said:
“All I’m saying is physicality is a means. Scoring goals is an end. Preventing goals is an end. There’s more than one means to that end. If someone is good at scoring and preventing goals, but isn’t physical, that someone is a good hockey player. If someone is physical but isn’t good at scoring or preventing goals, that person is not a good player.”
That doesn’t change in the playoffs.
if you want to have a team that goes deep into the playoffs and wins a cup along the way, the team needs to toughen up.
Toughness and fighting are not the same thing.
i dont call taking a bunch of shots to the head much of a response to the Bradley hit.
And Knuble for as big as he is should have demolished the Pens guy after he hit Ovechkin- the guy should have left a trail of blood leaving the ice. where was the retribution against Kunitz for the cross-check to Varleys head last spring?
I’m afraid I don’t understand your criticism here. On Janssen it seems like you’re looking for someone who can match him in the fight – but that’s not going to do any good, because he’s not going to be deterred. On Knuble it seems like you’re upset that he’s not a better fighter, but what’s the solution there? On Kunitz it seems like you want retribution, but in that scenario it hurts the team and detracts from their overall goal.
by David Getz on Feb 16, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Cheers. And I’d never suggest that regular season and playoff hockey call for the same skills. They don’t. The Penguins are much better at playing at the edge of legal than the Caps. It’s part of why they dominated the Caps last playoffs — they knew where the line was, and the Caps’ didn’t. It comes with experience, and it comes with the desire to do what it takes (including leaving your comfort zone) to win a championship.
I echo F&B in calling for guys like Brooks Laich to round out their game by adding a little of the dark side. Ovechkin is already one of the best in hockey at using physicality to take the other squad off their game. I’d like to see the rest of Caps do that a little more. But the reason is that I think it would reduce the number of goals against, and add to the number of goals for. It’s still a means to an end. And guys like Koci or Janssen will never get there because they see physicality as the end, not the means.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Feb 17, 2010 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
The Penguins are much better at playing at the edge of legal than the Caps. It’s part of why they dominated the Caps last playoffs — they knew where the line was, and the Caps’ didn’t.
And the Pens said the same thing about DET the year before.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Cheers. And I’d never suggest that regular season and playoff hockey call for the same skills. They don’t.
I think that’s a fair assessment.
Hope you didn’t feel like I was putting words in your mouth – that wasn’t my intention. Just wanted to refute the “finesse guys dont get it done in the playoffs” blanket statement.
Finesse guys get it done in the playoffs just fine. The Red Wings are full of them, and they’ve been quite successful. Crosby and Malkin did pretty good last year.
Bruising teams can do well — the Ducks proved that a few years ago — but there isn’t just one type of team that goes far in the Stanley Cup playoffs.
Chimera
Wasnt the purpose of getting him as an agitator/fighter, as well as a salary dump
Хотя я гуляю через долину тени страха смерти i никакое зло.
I want each line to have a guy that can play and is going to create some space for the scorers. For example, if the other team takes liberties on Backstrom then Knuble is going to bash you. If the other team takes liberties with Semin, then Laich takes the role, and then Chimera, on his line, and Brads(which he will already) on his line.
I am not asking for a bruiser, just an overall uptick in aggressiveness from all the players, think Hunter. How many liberties have been taken with Green this season? Too many. Who stands up for him? No body. Why? Because it has become the norm for opposing players to hit and agitate the Caps as a way to get them off their game. They know no one, except for Brads, is going to do much to make them stop.
Now, I am a bit old school, but dont think I am asking for the 70’s style of play to come back. But I am 100% for dropping the dumbest rules in hockey, 47.11 & 47.12, so the game can get back to what is was say late 80’s when the game was at its peak of popularity.
I hate the Pens with a passion not known by many. With that said players like Orpik, Kunitz, Cooke, all have the toughness or edge or dirty or whatever you want to call it that we lack. That is all I am asking for. Asking the PK to save you in the playoffs is a stretch when the whistles get swalled. Plus if the NHL is going to continue with these annoying interference calls the defensemen are going to have to learn to let the forwards skate passed them into the offensive zone and then hammer them hard in the end boards so hard that they are going to think twice about doing it again. Its just basic tough hockey, thats all.
I am not asking for a bruiser, just an overall uptick in aggressiveness from all the players, think Hunter. How many liberties have been taken with Green this season? Too many. Who stands up for him? No body. Why? Because it has become the norm for opposing players to hit and agitate the Caps as a way to get them off their game. They know no one, except for Brads, is going to do much to make them stop
.
On the other hand you have Knuble on Adams, Morrisonn on Orr, Laing on Janssen, Bradley on Laperriere, and Bradley and Downie. As a whole, the team has done a decent job of sticking up for themselves and their teammates.
in the playoffs is a stretch when the whistles get swalled
That’s not really the case, though. And even if more liberties are taken during the post season, what can the Capitals do? Again toughness and fighting aren’t one and the same and fighting isn’t going to deter anyone in the playoffs.
I’d say that, having watched a lot of playoff hockey over the past two seasons, that the refs do swallow their whistles somewhat. It seems like players play on the edge, and play over the edge much more frequently than in the regular season, but the refs let most of the borderline calls go, basically evening out the penalty call numbers. And that is worrisome, that guys can get away with things, especially to players like Varly, Chimera, and Semin.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Feb 17, 2010 8:50 AM EST up reply actions
His disciplinary hearing had been postponed since he is on a planned vacation.
Rocking the Red since 1975
ah i figured. wasnt sure tho.
i still love that the blues announcers tried to qualify that hit as just a bad interference call on an unsuspecting player.
by twistedlogic on Feb 16, 2010 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
great post
jordin tootoo could be a possible solution?
by Area 51 Forever on Feb 17, 2010 9:32 PM EST reply actions
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Florida
|
53 | 25 | 17 | 11 | 61 |
|
Washington
|
54 | 28 | 21 | 5 | 61 |
|
Winnipeg
|
56 | 26 | 24 | 6 | 58 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
53 | 23 | 24 | 6 | 52 |
|
Carolina
|
55 | 20 | 25 | 10 | 50 |
(updated 2.10.2012 at 9:27 AM EST)
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