Steve Yzerman on Mike Green
by J.P. on Feb 11, 2010 10:36 AM EST
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Pulled from a lengthy interview with Team Canada General Manager Steve Yzerman (h/t Kukla's Korner), the following:
Q: With the inclusion of character players like Brenden Morrow and Mike Richards, your picks speak to me more of an attention to team chemistry than to pure statistics. Is that the main lesson you derived from these past tournaments?
A: You have to be careful not to just pick up the paper, look at the stats and say, okay, there’s our four centremen right there among the top NHL scorers. A guy on a really good NHL team, for example, should have a much better plus-minus than a guy on a bad team. You have to consider that. You also have to think about where guys would fit in on an Olympic team, which is not necessarily the same as where they fit on their NHL team. The right guy may be someone whose numbers are lower, and that was the case a few times for us. A lot more goes into being a good player than just putting up points.
Q: Is that the explanation for your decision to exclude Mike Green of the Washington Capitals, who is currently the NHL’s top-scoring defenceman?
A: Mike Green’s a hell of a hockey player, a tremendous talent. I just think the defence we put together can generate offence almost to the same level as Mike, and yet be stronger in other areas. We just thought the seven that we chose are a better fit for us. I don’t want to go on at length criticizing Mike Green, but there are parts of his game that we’d need to see improved upon before he’s ready to play in the Olympics. That’s my decision. If we have injuries, Mike will certainly be one of the players in the mix to be a replacement.
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Y’know, something about
I don’t want to go on at length criticizing Mike Green, butmakes my BS detector twitch a bit. Nice to know that if the experienced, flawlessly-rounded Drew Doughty goes down to injury, a speedy and productive Norris finalist will be “in the mix” to replace him.
I’ll be watching the tournamentt on ABC—Anyone But Canada. (I know—looks like a long fortnight for me!)
Smells like bullshit to me. Particularly the stats part of the discussion, in other words, the “intangibles” a player brings or doesn’t bring.
Green has more points in fewer games AND has a higher plus/minus than any other defenseman, but that ain’t good enough? Drew Doughty is a better fit? Whatever. I dont think the level of overall skill of the chosen seven, not to mention GAON-60 and all the other arguments that we can bring in Mike’s favor, other than Duncan Keith, is even close to what Green brings.
It is an embarassment leaving him off the team, IMO. What else does a player have to do?
Then Yzerman should man up and say that’s why he was left off. Don’t bring that “our D can create nearly as much offense” stuff.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 11, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Disagree. If there’s a valid reason to leave a guy off, it’s not trashing the guy to give it publicly or privately.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 11, 2010 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Framing is as issue too. Saying “I just think the defence we put together can generate offence almost to the same level as Mike, and yet be stronger in other areas” and “A lot more goes into being a good player than just putting up points”, is a pretty clear indication that he’s not comfortable with Green’s defense, or at least that’s how it reads to me, and for whatever reason being any more specific to that seems like overkill.
by David Getz on Feb 11, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Eh. I’d like a little more of an explanation, but I recognize that Canadians are a polite sort who don’t enjoy such things.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
That sounds exactly what he was saying with this line:
I just think the defence we put together can generate offence almost to the same level as Mike, and yet be stronger in other areas.
In other words, the extra offense Green would provide to an already offensively capable blueline is not worth the defensive problems. You can argue whether or not his opinion is accurate, but he’s pretty clearly laying out the reason why everyone knows Green got left off the team without piling on him. I don’t have a problem with his comments.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 11, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
Should have read DMG’s comments first.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 11, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Now, with that being said
there are parts of his game that we’d need to see improved upon before he’s ready to play in the Olympics
….bru-TAL.
Russian Machine very rarely breaks. Oh and f**k Brooks Orpik.
I have no problem with his line of thinking, whether or not we agree with it.. I think what rankles us as fans is that as far as we know, in the end, nothing final was said to Green (yes, we know they spoke during the review process). He didn’t get the call to be on standby, and therefore got no call telling him he was out. You’d think that anyone who attended the orientation camp should have been afforded that courtesy, not just Green. And I’d apply that thought to any country’s team.
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
#Needsmorerespect
Q: Did you break the news personally to some of the players you left at home?
A: I know that Hockey Canada, out of respect, called a few of the guys who have always been good soldiers—who answered the bell when asked to play for their country and were in strong consideration. As for myself, I had a couple of players who have played for me, or with me, who unfortunately didn’t make the final roster who I intend to follow up with over the next few weeks.
I think i read, somewhere, that the “reserve” players got phone calls. Mike did not. So I call bullshit on Yzerman claiming that Mike is someone “in the mix” to be a replacement.
The biggest kick, of course, is that he so badly wants to be one of those “good soldiers” and Canada doesn’t seem to want him to be.
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
On Draper having to wear a USA jersey at practice: "well at least the Wings can settle bets without involving gold plated desert eagles!"
That’s what I was pointing out, that Green did not get a call and had to learn about it from his parents. So I am with you on the Yzerman BS. Must be trying to cover his tail for a bunch of bad reaction he’s gotten since the selections were announced (non-public stuff, maybe e-mail, phone calls, etc).
I understand the whole patiotism thing and how badly you’d want to play for your country, but wouldn’t you love it if Green were asked in 2014 by Yzerman and he told him to FO? Not going to happen, but would be funny.
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
I like it. That would be awesome. Especially if Team Canada loses this year just because they didn’t have a player like Mike Green on the roster…
I need a snappy signature...
by IRockTheRed on Feb 11, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
I think we all acknowledged that if Green had made the team, he’d likely have been the seventh defenseman, so if Canada loses, I don’t think that would be a huge reason. Right now, I’d say goaltending is more likely. Canada’s goalies aren’t exactly on stellar runs at the moment. Adequate, but not game-stealing.
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
Well yeah, but it’d still be funny, and that’s all I’m saying.
I need a snappy signature...
by IRockTheRed on Feb 11, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
but I don’t think Green tells them to f-o. I was discussing this with Mr, Bird in regards to Sweden and Franzen. It’s the Olympics. There’s no “next year.” You have to hope you stay on top, and stay healthy, for 4 more years. It’s such a crap shot. It’s the Olympics. You never know if you’ll get invited again. You hold your nose, put aside any differences, and go.
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
On Draper having to wear a USA jersey at practice: "well at least the Wings can settle bets without involving gold plated desert eagles!"
Oh, of course he doesn’t.
But it’d be funny as hell if he did, or if he decided to play for a different international squad in the interim…
I need a snappy signature...
by IRockTheRed on Feb 11, 2010 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
Just think if he went and became an American citizen, just so he could stick it to Canada next time.
a la Brett Hull
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Feb 11, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
that's ridiculous
dude you’re turning a roster decision for a national team into something personal. that would be the most idiotic thing Green could do.
by DonnieKnutts on Feb 11, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
Actually I’d be more amused if he got dual Canadian-Russian citizenship in the meantime and decided to play for the red team in 2014.
… IF… that is… the NHL allows its players to compete.
But that’s a discussion to be had 3 years from now.
What. The. Fuck.
Is with all the Russian love? Jesus Christ. If we’re talking duel citizenship then why would you not want him to get American duel citizenship and play for the US? Neither is going to happen but at least he could possibly get US citizenship because he actually lives here. I’m shocked how many people have picked up Russia as their primary rooting interest on this site.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Rob Parker on Feb 11, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Cold war is over dude.
"We take the shortest route to the puck and arrive in ill humor." - Bobby Clarke
Really? Thanks for the update, Big Ben. My birth certificate hasn’t changed and I’m damn sure not going to start rooting against USA just because I have a front row seat to Ovechkin’s heroics.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Rob Parker on Feb 11, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, we can root for Ovechkin. But seriously guys, the US is OUR TEAM during the Olympics.
Though I think we can all agree to rooting against Canada
I can’t.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
by Rather Bengt on Feb 11, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
But I bet you aren’t rooting for Russia just because you like the Caps.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Not rooting for Russia either,
For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
by Rather Bengt on Feb 11, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Weird. So you’re going by birth certificate as well?
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Of course. Born and lived in Canada all my life.
Of course I would rather have Green over Boyle on the team. But I would say Yzerman didn’t choose because of his not-showing up in the big game when it counted. His Pens series was pretty dreadful and besides that I can’t think of any other big games where Green could prove himself. Richards, Carter and Jumbo Joe all have larger sample sizes to draw upon that Green.
Why did Yzerman choose Boyle over Green? Maybe because you have San Jose’s 1st line intact on the team—likely a chemistry issue.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
by Rather Bengt on Feb 11, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
sorry for the typo “than Green”
For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
by Rather Bengt on Feb 11, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree about Carter. He had one big year, and then regressed to start the season. Green led the NHL in D scoring 2 straight already.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Given that there are so many Washington Capitals with the Russians and that a few of us may have actually met Ovi, Semin, or Varly.
And that the US has some douche bags on their team, like Brooks Orpik and David Backes.
Rocking the Red since 1975
Get over David Backes. Just do it. And who cares anyway, there are douche bags on the Russian team as well. It’s about country.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Rob Parker on Feb 11, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I realize this may have come off a little harsh. That wasn’t my intention. I just don’t think it makes any sense to hold Semin’s fragile constitution against Backes. He made a relatively innocent play that happens every single game and Semin got a boo boo. Plus, we’ve been harping about team toughness and had our boners ready for SDR. That’s exactly the kind of guy we want. If SDR could ever come close to what Backes is I’d be ecstatic. I know it’s different when it’s your guy, but we can’t sit here and dream about having that sandpaper in the lineup and then decry everyone else’s sandpaper. It’s an important part of the game and Backes is a good and valuable player. A team comprised of angels won’t go anywhere.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Rob Parker on Feb 11, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It isn’t just the fact that Semin is fragile.
Objectively speaking, Backes is a productive player, in goal scoring, or at least he was last year.
He also has had an extremely high number of penalty minutes, as in over 100 PIM last year. I’m sure that included some fights and misconducts.
Rocking the Red since 1975
Yeah, but why is that a problem? He’s not dirty, he doesn’t turtle, he can play with skill guys and protect them. What’s not to like? Do you want a team that has 0 PIMs on the season?
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Rob Parker on Feb 11, 2010 6:41 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I’ll take 165 Backes PIM over 77 Semin PIM over the course of a season in a heartbeat.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 11, 2010 11:27 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
And that the US has some douche bags on their team, like Brooks Orpik and David Backes.
Did you suspend your Capitals fandom when they had Matt Cooke?
by David Getz on Feb 11, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is with all the Russian love? Jesus Christ. If we’re talking duel citizenship then why would you not want him to get American duel citizenship and play for the US?
Uhh ….. Because we have three guys from the Caps on the Olympic team and 0 on USA.
Plus it’s umm.. a .. uhh.. Joke? I didn’t realize making a jest that Green should join the Russian team to be with his teammates would stir up some anger.
You’ve been stuck in your Sealab for too long, my friend.
Are you American?
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Yes.
Does that mean I want American to get more medals than anyone else in the Olympics? No. Honestly I don’t give a crap. I just want to see the best people in the world competing against each other. I don’t really care who wins.
I’m definitely not going to be sitting around my TV with my beer helmet chanting “U.S.A.”
Yeah, well you eat poo.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Now, I’m not saying it makes sense to split up Pronger and Nieds… but for a player who has really relied on his feet for so long, he has certainly lost a quarter of a step this year…
by Bushwood Bushwhacker on Feb 11, 2010 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
I just think the defence we put together can generate offence almost to the same level as Mike
Points-per game would seem to disagree:
Mike Green (1.02 – best in the NHL)
Duncan Keith (.86)
Dan Boyle (.81)
Drew Doughty (.73)
Chris Pronger (.71)
Shea Weber (.58)
Scott Niedermayer (.57)
Brent Seabrook (.39)
So would GAON/60 at 5-on-5:
Mike Green (4.76 – best in the NHL)
Dan Boyle (3.23)
Brent Seabrook (3.16)
Duncan Keith (3.15)
Drew Doughty (3.05)
Shea Weber (2.62)
Chris Pronger (2.36)
Scott Niedermayer (2.29)
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 11, 2010 11:05 AM EST reply actions 9 recs
I get the whole, “We want chemistry” so Seabrook gets to come along for all the Olympic fun, but I think he owes Duncan Keith a whole lot of “Thank you!” cards. A .39 ppg? Yikes.
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
On Draper having to wear a USA jersey at practice: "well at least the Wings can settle bets without involving gold plated desert eagles!"
rec'd
Greenie gets such a bum rap. That play he made last night to break up the shorthanded 2 on 1… so good.
by Bushwood Bushwhacker on Feb 11, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
I thought the only part of that entire defensive sequence that was good was the timing of his slide on the block. He was muy fortunate. A little stop and go by the Hab and Mike goes right by.
Driving under the influence of hockey since godknow's when.
by bigonetimer on Feb 11, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
I think you got a preview a few weeks ago with regard to Niedermayer. Will enjoy the plethora of Rooskies making him look old and slow.
Russian Machine very rarely breaks. Oh and f**k Brooks Orpik.
(Major fail – that’s GFON/60… oops)
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
And just for fun, the GAON/60 at 5-on-5 of those seven:
Chris Pronger (1.63)
Shea Weber (2.13)
Drew Doughty (2.16)
Brent Seabrook (2.34)
Duncan Keith (2.43)
Mike Green (2.68)
Dan Boyle (2.85)
Scott Niedermayer (3.11)
Wait… why isn’t Green at the bottom of the list?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 11, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Looking at that just reminds me of where I always wind up, which is trying understand why Dan Boyle’s on the team over Green. Everyone else I get. Keith you have to take, and bringing Seabrook with him makes sense. Doughty, Weber, and Pronger I can all buy as better defensively, capable offensively, and less prone to costly mistakes. Niedermayer’s numbers are bad, but I can see having him for his experience, versatility, and left-handed shot.
But Boyle, to me, is essentially a poor man’s Mike Green, and I can’t really reconcile how he’s on the team over Greenie.
by David Getz on Feb 11, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Boyle’s 33, Green’s 24. That’s what I see.
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
But there’s plenty of veteran leadership in Nieds and Pronger on the blueline. I agree that Boyle’s the headscratcher, though I don’t value the intangibles that Niedermayer brings as highly as some others might.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
No, I’m with you. I’m giving an outside rebuttal to DMG questioning Boyle over Green.
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
Right. I see that, too. I just don’t buy it as being a legitimate reason to make that choice.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Agreed. See: Drew Doughty.
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
I can buy Doughty over Green. Maybe not the choice I’d make, but I can at least understand it.
Boyle over Green…I just can’t think of a single good reason.
I'm not buying Pronger anymore
Everytime I’ve seen him this season he’s looked slow.
The Olympics shape up to be a real test for those of the slow and steady persausion (like myself), considering the absolute wealth of fleet footed skaters some countries will be fielding. Russia and Sweden stand out as real zippy teams.
Along this line I think guys like Chara are gonna stink up the rink as well.
A danger to myself and others on the ice
Pronger’s slow, but he’s still huge, very good positionally and very good with his stick. Check out his 5on5 GA/60 for evidence – 1.63. That’s a phenomenal number, especially given how bad Philly’s goaltending has been this season.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Feb 11, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
And Boyle is on a dominant offensive team, that is good defensively, and has a great goalie. Boyle should get all those qualifications that Yzerman threw out about Green: “a player on a better team should have a higher plus/minus” etc. That’s bullshit.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Rob Parker on Feb 11, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
His D is so bad that his GAON/60 actually rolled back and started from 0 again.
Now drink with me deeply of the bourbon, scotch, and rye until such time as we are fighting drunk.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Feb 11, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Green’s defense is sooooo baaaaad…
Go Flyerzzzz
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Feb 11, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Well, he did say “almost to the same level”, which to me suggests he thinks Team Canada might score a goal or two fewer with these guys than Green, which I think is valid.
by David Getz on Feb 11, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He’s 18% higher than his closest competitor in points per game. That’s not almost the same level, IMO. But yeah, it’s less than two points in ten games. Still, I think it undersells his offensive abilities.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Also, Green is playing with far more offensive talent than those other players and in an aggressive offensive system. I think the difference in their ability to put up points on a stacked Olympic roster is significantly smaller than the differences in their point totals for their respective NHL teams.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 11, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Good point, but
Boyle plays with Marleau, Heater, Big Joe, Pavelski, etc.
Keith/Seabrook play with Kane, Toews, Hossa, Versteeg, Sharp, Big Buff, Bolland, etc.
Doughty plays with Kopitar, Smyth, Brown, Stoll, etc.
Pronger plays with Carter, Richards, Giroux, Briere, Hartnell, JVR, Gagne, etc.
They have plenty of offensive talent on their teams, even Nieds. Weber is the only guy that isn’t bolstered by a ton of offensive talent. Just because the Caps are the best offensive team in the league (quite possibly because Mike Green helps make them better?) doesn’t mean that these other guys are playing with chopped liver.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
They aren’t playing with chopped liver, but San Jose is the only one of those teams that has the same top end talent as the Caps, and none of them have the depth in scoring talent that the Caps have. And none of them are asked to play the same aggressive attacking role that Green plays.
Green is clearly the best offensive Dman in the game, but I stand by my claim that on a stacked roster like Canada’s the difference in point production between Green and the others drops significantly. I don’t think Yzerman is crazy at all to suggest that they can get almost the same production from their blueline without Green.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 11, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
I stand by my claim that on a stacked roster like Canada’s the difference in point production between Green and the others drops significantly.
Maybe, but you could also say that on a team with 4 world class lines, instead of one, Green would put up even crazier numbers. My point was more going to the fact that Yzerman seems to be knocking Green for playing on a really talented team when almost every one of the selected D is in the same boat. I’ve said all along that I didn’t think Green would make it, and I didn’t want him to, but I still think the justification is BS. Boyle is really the guy that I have a beef with and he’s the one that Yzerman’s critiques most directly apply to as well.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Boyle is definitely the one that is most similar to Green in terms of their style and their NHL situations, so I agree that it is tough to defend why he is on the team instead of Green.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 11, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
He haz a Kup!!!!1
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
i remember trying to make this point, albeit less articulately, somewhere during my 4th beer last friday night. if BB’s high-charged, risk-taking, offensive-minded system can be credited with dampening green’s defensive numbers, it needs to get credit for pumping up his offensive numbers too. green has come a long way since his rookie season, but the difference between mike green the player under hanlon and mike green the player under BB is remarkable.
by Natty Bumppo on Feb 11, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
That can be said about almost all the players.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
That is true.
Under Hanlon, the Caps were a bottom feeder.
Under Boudreau, the Caps are a solid first place team.
Difference of night and day.
Rocking the Red since 1975
Under Hanlon, the Caps were what the bottom feeders ate and excreted.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 11, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why wait? I’m listening to The Bends right now.
"Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year. It's just not really widely reported."
by Laich It Or Lump It on Feb 11, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Everytime I think of that album now I have flashbacks of my traumatic experience last time Radiohead came to Nissan Pavilion.
God was angry that day.
I spent 3 hours running around the parking lot in freezing mud up to my knees trying to find my car. And that was the FUN part…
I even found a Lexus who’s locks operated on the same frequency as mine.
Points-per game would seem to disagree:
Yea but as far as assists…..well… I mean.. he is playing with the Capitals. You could put ones of the mites on ice out there on defense and he’d rack up quite a few assists.
But I agree with you for the most part. I may agree with Yzerman when it comes to the assists but a goal is a goal and Mike Green knows how to score.
by Brainumbc on Feb 11, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yea but as far as assists…..well… I mean.. he is playing with the Capitals. You could put ones of the mites on ice out there on defense and he’d rack up quite a few assists.
Which explains why Shamo, Schultz, Potsy, Poti, and Erskine are all among the league leaders for assists by D.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Rob Parker on Feb 11, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think Green gets more assists mostly because he shoots more. Look at the shots on net totals for these guys:
Green 152
Erskine 42
ShaMo 23
Pothier 57
Schultz 57
I bet if Green was playing on some mediocre team his assists would be way down.. AS WOULD be everyone else’s.
But I’ll give you guys this. You can’t score if you don’t shoot. Green IS #4 in the league for shots as far as D men (2 of those above him are Canadian) and #12 in shooting % for D men (7 of those above him are Canadian).
So yea… Even being a Cap.. Green creates opportunities. So do I think he should have made the team? Yes. But do I understand Yzerman’s reasoning? Yes again.
Yzerman’s alleged bias against the East Cost aside, I wonder if being with the Capitals has tainted Green’s olympic changes. Yzerman might just assume the same hypothesis I proposed earlier. The better the team you’re with.. the less special your own numbers might seem.
I think Green gets more assists mostly because he shoots more
And why is he getting more shots than those guys?
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Two more reasons:
1) Because he’s got the balls to shoot more.
2) Because he’s a faster mother F##er. He can get in that rush and get back on Defense pretty quickly as well.
But that’s just not the type of hockey Yzerman wants. Look… Green’s style is a little risky. YES I know you guys have heard that argument a million times but seriously… You have to at least ADMIT the fact that if you’re a D man and you get the puck poked away from you.. you’re going to have a better chance defending against a goal if you’re IN BETWEEN the opposing player and your goalie rather than if your 10 feet away from the opposing goalie and all your momentum is going towards him.
Sorry but I’m just not THAT pissed that Green didn’t make the team. I think Yzerman’s reasons are valid.
I don’t disagree with that, but you’re changing the argument. I responded because you credited his assist total with playing on the Caps. That’s just not true. The Caps don’t have 6 D that have huge assist totals, they have 1. There’s a reason his numbers are astounding and it’s not because of his team, it’s because he’s awesome. Sure, you could take away the talent around him and his numbers would suffer, but who doesn’t that apply to? He’s about to lead the league in D scoring for the 3rd straight year. It’s not a fluke.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
There’s only one way to settle this.
We have to lend Mike Green to the Oilers for the rest of the season.
More like the ’Canes.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I thought about that. But we don’t want be helping out anyone in our own Conference or Division, do we? :)
Help them not get the #1 overall pick.
And I hope their pick busts, whoever it is. We haven’t seen a good lotto bust lately.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I dunno. Carolina’s the kind of team that could pull some magic our of their culo and actually make the playoffs.
Just ask anyone in Jersey who left their seat early in game 7 to try to beat the crowd getting to their car.
False.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Maybe, I hope they do pull close. But that’s way too many teams to try to jump in the standings with only 23 games to do it. They are second to last in the East. They’d need a hell of a lot of luck to even get a sniff, and Cam Ward just went down with another back injury and they’re trying to dismantle their team for picks at the deadline. Stick a fork in ’em.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I think the argument itself just got mutation between the both of us.
I don’t think I was really arguing so much against you as I was people who think Green should be in the Olympics simply because his stats are above everyone else’s. I’m not saying his stats would be crap on another team, but he’d certainly be a little lower on the lists for G,A, and +/-.
I just think if you take that fact.. and the fact that there are more experienced Canadian D men than Green.. I’m not surprised or offended that he didn’t make the team. But at least he was on the borderline. If his name wasn’t even being thrown around then I’d be pissed.
Some GVT stats if that’s your cup of tea:
Duncan Keith: 17.8 (1st overall)
Mike Green: 15.8 (2nd overall)
Chris Pronger: 13.7 (3rd overall)
Drew Doughty: 13.6 (4th overall)
Dan Boyle 10.1: (8th overall)
Brent Seabrook: 9.0 (13th overall)
Shea Weber: 8.9 (14th overall)
Scott Niedermayer: 4.7 (57th overall)
Sorted by total GVT by defenseman. Statistically, Neids is the odd man out in almost every category. Yzerman must really put a premium on the whole veteran leadership thing.
"Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year. It's just not really widely reported."
by Laich It Or Lump It on Feb 11, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Keith, Pronger, and Neids all shoot left. Doughty, Boyle, Seabrook, and Weber shoot right.
"Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year. It's just not really widely reported."
by Laich It Or Lump It on Feb 11, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Neidermayer is the pick that sticks out to me, too. Reputation and abilities-you-used-to-have-but-don’t-anymore won’t help much when the games start. The Canadian D is riduculously talented, but Neidermayer over Green is stoopid.
I’m not sure I take your point. Is it that he was named C so he’s a still a great player? Is it that he must be a great “leader” b/c he got the C? I’m curious. You don’t have to look much further than the Caps to see that sometimes the wrong guy gets the letter — so wrong in fact that the team is not only better off when they give the C to another guy, but so wrong that the team is better when that wrong guy is off the team. Neids was a great player. Was.
You can’t discount Niedermayer’s experience as a veteran that has won at every level possible in hockey. He may have lost a step but he is still a top defenseman. He’s like Canada’s Chris Drury except he still plays at an elite level.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 11, 2010 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
Niedermayer never won the Little League World Series.
Now drink with me deeply of the bourbon, scotch, and rye until such time as we are fighting drunk.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Feb 11, 2010 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
Or an NCAA title.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Yeah, but the NCAA blows. So eff that.
Now drink with me deeply of the bourbon, scotch, and rye until such time as we are fighting drunk.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Feb 12, 2010 5:12 AM EST up reply actions
while we're at it
i had no idea what to expect when I looked at this but….
Qual/Comp
Scott Niedermayer 0.136
Chris Pronger 0.118
Brent Seabrook 0.106
Duncan Keith 0.097
Dan Boyle 0.034
Drew Doughty 0.033
Shea Weber 0.031
Mike Green -0.005
Obviusly this stat is unfair to Green, as he plays FOR the dominant NHL force known as the Washington Capitals, and can’t raise his QualComp by playing against the best team….
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Feb 11, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
It certainly speaks to the fact that Green’s generally fantastic performance has been aided by being carefully managed. Which, of course, he would be in Vancouver.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Then again, I’d wonder how “carefully managed” you can be in 30 minutes of ice time. You’re a) playing too much to be at your peak the whole time and b) bound to be stuck out against some quality players. And if those numbers aren’t just ES then it includes a whole ton of PP time that Green gets against PK guys who generally are low QComp though they are very good defensively.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Those are 5-on-5 numbers, if I’m not mistaken.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
That’s what I’m assuming as well. Though, as you noted, if he’s on that deep Team Canada blueline he wouldn’t have to see the high QComp on the other teams anyway.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Obviusly this stat is unfair to Green, as he plays FOR the dominant NHL force known as the Washington Capitals, and can’t raise his QualComp by playing against the best team….
Disagree. Green’s QualComp is based on the adjusted +/- of the players he faces. Those players’ ratings, however, are an accumulative metric based on all games played, not just games against the Caps. So the fact that Green plays for the Caps has little to do with his QualComp because the stat QualComp is based on is affected by many teams.
"Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year. It's just not really widely reported."
by Laich It Or Lump It on Feb 11, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve probably asked this before, but is Greens QUALCOMP number so low, perhaps, because Bruce very rarely line matches? He does demand that everyone, from #1 on the depth chart to a #30 call-up from Hershey, play in all situations, against all competition. So the Caps don’t really have a tradition “shut down” pair that is consistently deployed against the opposing teams’ top lines.
or maybe I’m really off base.
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
On Draper having to wear a USA jersey at practice: "well at least the Wings can settle bets without involving gold plated desert eagles!"
Well good luck to Team Western Conference Canada. I’m rootin’ for the Ruskies.
by sickleandhammer on Feb 11, 2010 11:34 AM EST reply actions
No way! USA all the way! Though if it can’t be them, Sweden and Russia I’d (less enthusiastically) root for.
by gnuf on Feb 11, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm actually rooting for Russia over the USA
in hockey, but only because I think they can beat the Canadians. If the Americans beat the Russians then lose to the Canadians, the Canadians win the gold….
Unless Miller is feeling unstopable, I sadly don’t see the Americans beating the Canadians.
They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Rob Parker on Feb 11, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
That’s the definition of front-running. It’s not about who you think can win, it’s about supporting your team against the odds, however long. U-S-A! U-S-A!
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Feb 11, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
By not supporting USA in Olympic Hockey… you’re supporting terrorism. We can’t let the TURRRURISTS win!
That’s exactly what his point was.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Are Alaskans allowed to route for Russia? After all. 48% of America thinks that’s good enough to give Palin 3 credits in a university level foreign policy.
Alaskans can route for Russia as soon as we get Russia to take Scott Gomez from us.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
To clarify – I would love USA to win the gold. But I have had way too much time on my hands these days, (out of work) and have absorbed way too much Don Cherry, Mike Milbury and Canadian message board comments about the Caps these days. So I guess I mean I am rooting against Canada. It’s wrong to do, but it’s true.
by sickleandhammer on Feb 11, 2010 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
I’m definitely rooting against Canada, not only because I disagree with their personnel decision but because they’re so smug about hockey.
(On Mike Green) He’s urban, you northern folk wouldn’t understand!
…even though John Carlson generously offered some perspective!
by redlineblue on Feb 11, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly. I have that gif on my Chrome bookmark bar to whip it out a moments notice. Real American hero!
(On Mike Green) He’s urban, you northern folk wouldn’t understand!
So yeah...
(On Mike Green) He’s urban, you northern folk wouldn’t understand!
by Ovechwin on Feb 11, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
So, the next Caps home game after this lovely moment of real American heroism, my brother comes. The Caps showed the winning goal on the big screen and I’m trying to explain it to my brother. And he goes “Wait, so some kid in the Caps system just managed to crush the hearts of Canada? I love this team!” He promptly went and got a shirt, cowbell, hat, the whole nine yards. All because of John Carlson
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
On Draper having to wear a USA jersey at practice: "well at least the Wings can settle bets without involving gold plated desert eagles!"
LOL that’s awesome. That was a great moment, nice GIF. I caught the end of that game totally by accident, maybe mid-way through the 3rd… the silence in that arena after Carlson scored was impressive. Pin drops ain’t even in it.
by sickleandhammer on Feb 11, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
Bandwagon fan!
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I still feel bad for the dude that goes in for the celebratory hug, then Carlson just does his little dance on the ice.
They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
I will rec this until the day I die.
Game-Over Green? Canada-Over Carlson!
by Scott in Shaw on Feb 11, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
I also recall Bruce saying that Green can play the more conservative offense, but that that is not what Bruce asks Green to play, given how the Caps system is structured. Green is asked to pinch in, play supremely aggressively, etc. Just because that’s how he’s used by the Caps doesn’t mean he can’t buckle down (a bit) for Canada.
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
On Draper having to wear a USA jersey at practice: "well at least the Wings can settle bets without involving gold plated desert eagles!"
Didn’t they play some scrimmages during orientation camp? That would have had everyone playing under the same system.
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
They did have some scrimmages, and (either Keith or Pronger, but I’m pretty sure it was Pronger) spent a lot of time running Green.
Now helping to keep an eye on all things Gr8 at Alex Ovetjkin.
Pronger on Team Canada does make it that much easier to root against them
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
On Draper having to wear a USA jersey at practice: "well at least the Wings can settle bets without involving gold plated desert eagles!"
No way Crosby wouldn’t be on team Canada.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
A guy called into NHL Live yesterday and asked what would happen if Crosby, playing for USA, met up with the other guy (he meant Malkin) playing for Russia in the Olympics. I still have a red spot from the facepalm.
"Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year. It's just not really widely reported."
by Laich It Or Lump It on Feb 11, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
they really do have quite a few guys who are, um, less than lovely people. Crosby, Pronger, Mike Richards, Dany Heatley…….
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
On Draper having to wear a USA jersey at practice: "well at least the Wings can settle bets without involving gold plated desert eagles!"
Heatley gets a bad rap
Sure, he’s guilty of depraved indifference and multiple episodes of astonishing selfishness, but there’s a lot to be said for his…his uhhm…
I think you’re rolling the dice on EVERYONE. You’re asking guys from how many different teams to mesh and start playing the same system with, what, 2 practices?
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
On Draper having to wear a USA jersey at practice: "well at least the Wings can settle bets without involving gold plated desert eagles!"
So is dressing Chris Pronger and his elbows.
Mike Green, managed well in-game or even sitting in the press box and only inserted into the lineup if the team needs a spark is so much upside that it’s hard for me to see how you leave him off the team.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I don’t disagree, I just think that if you’re worried about Green’s defense to assume he’ll be able to step it up in international play just because he’s asked is a risk. Not to mention it’s hard to believe he’s as productive offensively if he being asked to play more conservatively.
Sure. It’s an ultra-conservative roster decision that probably over-estimates the risks and under-estimates the potential rewards of having him on the team, IMO. Nothing more, nothing less.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 11, 2010 11:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
over-estimates the risks and under-estimates the potential rewards
No doubt. No one’s as dynamic from the back end, so if you’re concerned about his defense, pair him with someone who’s defensively solid and/or manage his minutes, and deploy him on the PK. It’s like 85% of the reward with 25% of the risk.
which is why I’m scratching my head over why the didn’t take him.
I’m going with “He’s got too much personality.” Makes as much sense as anything else.
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
On Draper having to wear a USA jersey at practice: "well at least the Wings can settle bets without involving gold plated desert eagles!"
I don’t buy that. The goal of Hockey Canada is to win, and I have no doubt they’d rather win with Green than lose (lose being not taking gold) without him.
And yet you can’t help but get the impression that there are 3 or 4 more guys they’d pick before Green.
Russian Machine very rarely breaks. Oh and f**k Brooks Orpik.
Because of the system it seems like they’re going to play.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Feb 11, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
I believe the team he plays for does play a role. No, not that there’s a Canadian conspiracy against the Caps, but with all the arguments that make Green such a borderline choice, add the questions, “Will he line up and destroy Ovie if he gets a chance?” and, more significantly, “Will the greatest scorer in the world have a greater advantage against a defenseman he knows better than anyone?”
Based on how Green was playing defensively in the first few pre-season games this year (horribly), it is not a stretch to say that he didn’t look very good in the Olympic camp that was held just before. NHL Network has been replaying the Caps-Pens playoff series all month. Every time I see one of those games again, it becomes obvious why he wasn’t chosen. Players are evaluated on their body of work, and it is unfortunate that in Green’s most visible performances, he was not very good.
"We take the shortest route to the puck and arrive in ill humor." - Bobby Clarke
but, to me, the penguins series is such a small piece of his whole body of work.
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
On Draper having to wear a USA jersey at practice: "well at least the Wings can settle bets without involving gold plated desert eagles!"
However, it is also the most recent (and one of a small sample) exhibition of his play in big game situations. He wasn’t good against the Rangers and 14 games of poor play in the most recent playoffs carries a disproportionate amount of weight (and justifiably so, to an extent).
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 11, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with Killer. Some guy posted the same thing below as well. Green just looked so bad in that series, I think it was a huge hole he hasn’t dug out of. In fact, when it comes to Norris consideration, I am not sure he ever will.
"We take the shortest route to the puck and arrive in ill humor." - Bobby Clarke
Exactly. And that’s why Jeff Carter and Mike Richards didn’t get a sniff after their ridiculously terrible performance against the Pens last year. And Joe Thornton and Patrick Marleau and Dan Boyle were picked because of lighting up ANA in the first round. It was all applied evenly.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Green has got to be the most under-the-microscope player in hockey. NOTHING he does goes unnoticed. He screws up once and people talk about it for months.
Kung-fu Rink Rabbit
On Draper having to wear a USA jersey at practice: "well at least the Wings can settle bets without involving gold plated desert eagles!"
This is exactly the same thing the Rangers did with Brian Leetch and his defensive skill has been ripped on ever since (especially by NJD and NYI fans).
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
guy on a really good NHL team, for example, should have a much better plus-minus than a guy on a bad team. You have to consider that.
That’s why you use relative plus-minus instead, but I guess Yzerman doesn’t read BtN.
"Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year. It's just not really widely reported."
by Laich It Or Lump It on Feb 11, 2010 11:36 AM EST reply actions
I’ve seen the OT standards round here are pretty carefully adhered to and policed.
Is convention that when something like Varly starting tonight gets announced (as just happened) it’s left to mods to post or to someone ambitious enough to do a fan shot/fan post.?
thx.
"This guy is an android. He's not human....Oh my goodness."
Clips thread works for that.
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
Thx — so discussions run along simultaneously in multiple threads and doesn’t just always gravitate to the lastest post?
worries that it’s hard enough keeping up with one thread!!
"This guy is an android. He's not human....Oh my goodness."
Yes. Absolutely. Comments to substantive posts – like this – are intended to be about only the subject of the post itself.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
You’d comment in the Clips thread.
But I did post a FanShot on it on the front page.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
You know, he can word it however he wants… looking at the facts of the matter, it’s hard to pretend Green is considerably behind a guy like Boyle in terms of risk/reward. Does he have deficiencies? Yes, of course, but he’s a first-pair defenseman on the best team in the league. On a team like the Canadian national team, he’d have considerably better defensive support.
In the simplest terms, Green is the kind of player who can win games. To spout a rather tacky cliche, Stevie Y almost seems more interested in a building a team to not lose than building a team to win.
To spout a rather tacky cliche, Stevie Y almost seems more interested in a building a team to not lose than building a team to win.
This is true but when you’re in his position and you’re talking about Green’s roster spot, you do that. Once you have the forwards set, with all that firepower, and you have several guys who would be ahead of Green on the depth chart I think it makes sense to be more conservative.
It’s a matter of philosophy. I don’t necessarily think that line of though is wrong, but it’s a risk in its own way. Do you have faith that another defenseman is enough of an upgrade over Green defensively that it’s worth the sacrifice of his offense? If the PP struggles, how many people are going to wonder if a guy like Green couldn’t have won the game for them? Making the conservative choice is a gamble in its own right.
“Playin’ it safe’s about the most dangerous thing a girl like you can do.”
/Moonstruck’d
by redlineblue on Feb 11, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
You have pretty much beaten me to writing all of my thoughts on this post. Get out of my head!
I definitely am not surprised that Yzerman is taking a less risky approach with all of the pressure Canada has to win with the Olympics in Canada.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 11, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
The mindset Yzerman has is exactly why Mike Green is unlikely to win a Norris trophy. However, his mindset’s not 100% incorrect, I feel. Sure, Mike Green plays better defense than most people claim, but damn if he’s not one of the most high risk-high reward players in the league. You can’t deny that. Maybe Canada is looking to that and wanting lower risk players. I can’t blame them.
What is Yzerman doing that Herb Brooks didn’t? Herb Brooks did NOT take the 20 best Americans in 1980, he took the 20 best players who best fit his system and he thought were coach-able. I don’t think he’d have taken a guy like Mike Green, who lives flashy, and plays flashy. i don’t see where calling it a chemistry thing is so bad.
I am not Canadian. I could care less who they put on their squad, because it’s not my decision. I see where Yzerman’s coming from, and I don’t think it’s a personal attack at all.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Feb 11, 2010 11:51 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
I don’t even care anymore, as long as Mike Green doesn’t eat his feeling or decide to dislocate a shoulder during the break I don’t mind him getting the rest. Do I think he’s good enough to have gotten a spot? Of course.
(On Mike Green) He’s urban, you northern folk wouldn’t understand!
by Ovechwin on Feb 11, 2010 11:56 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Ultimately, Team Canada is playing not to lose.
Team Russia is playing to win.
Guess who will get closer to their objective?
Now helping to keep an eye on all things Gr8 at Alex Ovetjkin.
Sweden?
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Feb 11, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Rec’d. :-)
I need a snappy signature...
by IRockTheRed on Feb 11, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Ultimately, Team Canada is playing not to lose.
What, other than Green’s selection, gives you that impression? I think they’re playing to win more so than not to lose, especially compared to what a lot of people thought they might do.
. . . especially compared to what a lot of people thought they might do.
Which is what, just out of curiosity, not to put you on the spot. (Sorry!) Anyway, alone and solitary in the Hockey Universe, I have always felt that adorable and spunky little StevieY was at bottom a cheesy little s^!t. (I am half Sicilian and Sicilians take the art of Holding a Grudge very seriously.) That said, he is in one hell of a hot seat these next few weeks and he runs the very real risk of getting tarred and feathered at the end of the day. I don’t care for the condescending tone of “there are parts of his game that we’d need to see improved upon before he’s ready to play”, but I do appreciate his game effort to explain. It might make that tar a bit less sticky when razzle-dazzle Russia kicks their asses from BC to beyond.
With Canada there’s always the issue of what to do to round out the roster, how to balance skill and prototypical third and fourth line traits, which is why you had people suggesting guys like Jordan Staal should be on the roster to play on the fourth line.
Green has been the most talked about player left off that roster. Yzerman just said that he would have to improve his game before he is good enough for the Olympics and then the next sentence says Green will be in the mix for replacements. He is just covering his butt with the media.
The way I see it, Yzerman left off Green because if Canada loses he will have an easier time pointing to the players he did select and saying that if they couldn’t score goals what makes you think Green could. Whereas, if Green were picked, and made a costly mistake, Yzerman would have to take the heat for including him on the team. Yzerman didn’t want to take the possible heat for Green so he took the “veteran” Neids, the “offensive D lock” Boyle, the “teammate chemistry” Seabrook, and the “prodigy” Doughty.
I don’t have a problem with it. It makes it easier than it already was to root against Canada, but Yzerman should know sometimes “almost to the same level” isn’t enough.
Why do we, as Caps fans, and presumably mostly Americans, care so much about a decision made by another country (even though it involves a Capital) in a tournament that’s not an exhibition? It’s not like an all-star snub, where you can point at stats and argue “This guy should be there.” It’s a call made by a guy who could obviously take whoever he wanted, and for whatever reason, excluded Mike Green from his final selections. I don’t buy that there’s anything against Green, and I certainly don’t buy that it was for any reason other than chemistry.
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by Whiter Mage on Feb 11, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not exactly sure what you are alluding to from my post, but I do not care who Yzerman picked. I just find the “explanation” slightly amusing, especially when it is a little contradicting. From most sources, Green was not even heavily considered for the 7th spot, so I find it interesting that Yzerman tries to tell the media that he is definitely in the mix. That is all.
It’s a general question to everyone, truth be told, but I wanted your take on it specifically.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
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by Whiter Mage on Feb 11, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
From most sources, Green was not even heavily considered for the 7th spot, so I find it interesting that Yzerman tries to tell the media that he is definitely in the mix.
I don’t think that’s strange. The attributes you look for in the seventh defenseman and you look for in an injury replacement aren’t necessarily the same, especially considering that who the injury replacement is probably depends on who gets injured.
IMO, if a defensive d-man goes down than Yzerman will go with Bouwmeester. If an offensive d-man goes down than Doughty slots in his space and you go with Bouwmeester as the 7th d-man. I would think 2 or 3 guys would have to be injured for Green to be looked at hard, and with this comment being said less than a week before the roster is finalized I doubt there will be more than 1 possible injury replacement.
That’s only if Doughty actually is 7th on the depth chart, and I’m not so sure that he should be.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 11, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
Boyle is the 7th D!
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I don't give a rat's ass about Green...
when it should be Schultzy’s omission that we REALLY should be busting Stevie Y’s balls about. Who else can score from 190 feet and go toe to toe with Sid the Kid? Mr Nasty, that’s who!
by S h a g g y on Feb 11, 2010 12:30 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
A rec and a Scooby-snack for ya….
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Feb 11, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
When you look at all the stats, both offense and defense, it would appear obvious that Mike Green should be on the team. But IMO it’s not the intangibles or chemistry or defensive ability or whatever that got him left off the team. It’s his propensity to make the Terrible Mistake.
I appreciate Mike Green’s awesome talent as much as any Caps fan, and we all know how good he can be on defense from watching him night in and night out. But it’s impossible to deny his propensity to lose focus at the absolute worst moment. There was a stretch of about a week or so early in the year where it seemed he was making one Terrible Mistake a game. For someone of his talent level and skill, it’s terrifying how bad he can be for singular moments.
Over the course of an NHL regular season, the blunders are easily outweighed by his performance overall. Over the course of a short tourney like the Olympics, one Terrible Mistake could cost Canada the gold.
by jpbryant on Feb 11, 2010 12:32 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Yes, this is exactly what I wanted to say but I didn’t want to pillory Mike publicly.
Signed,
Steve Y
by S h a g g y on Feb 11, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think I remember hearing on the broadcast Yzerman was at the Toronto game in Dec where the caps lost 6-3 and Green was -1 with 4 PIM.
There did seem to be a stretch where he made some bad mistakes and I think it coincided with the final month before the team was selected. Perhaps the pressure got to him a bit.
I see. I don’t really care which players the different countries pick because either way it is a hard decision and they are the ones who have to live with those decisions. Which is why I think it is easier for Yzerman to go the conservative way and leave off Green. I guess the only reason I am a little disappointed with the decision is because I am a big player fan and i feel bad for Green. It also seems to be another slight to Caps fans with their defenseman getting trashed again. There doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of a difference in the way Boyle and Green play, yet Boyle is a lock and Green needs to improve to even be considered for the Olympics.
Playoffs
My hypothesis is that Green played himself off of Team Canada in last year’s playoffs. I think that’s an understandable decision for Stevie to make, though I’d make a different one. I bet the extrapolation was: “Green plays great when there’s no pressure, but under the playoff pressure his game fell apart — maybe he was sick or hurt, but maybe not. Let’s see him perform well in the post-season and then he can play for Team Canada in the future.”
by CarlosLA on Feb 11, 2010 1:40 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I definitely agree with this. Not sure what more he could’ve done after that and before the decision was ultimately made – the only way he was making it is if others played themselves off the team.
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See some of the names I’ve posted in here as well, though. Thornton has historically struggled in the playoffs; moreso than Green. Richards was brutal last year. Carter, who is supposedly one of the top replacements, was also brutal. Marleau and Boyle were basically silent against ANA last year. There are a lot of Team Canada players that didn’t/haven’t done shit in the playoffs before. Just holding it against Green isn’t fair at all, especially considering how good he was against PHI the year before (you know, when he was healthy).
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Not one of those guys, though, received as much recent negative attention about their respective playoff struggles as Green did (in part because none had quite as far to fall and none fell as far).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Agreed. None had as far to fall because none were as high as Green. But Carter botched a sure game clinching goal against PIT that would have seriously changed the series, and Richards was a non-factor the entire time. I don’t even care that those guys get the benefit of the doubt because of their injuries, but if that’s the case then I refuse to let anyone pin Green’s non-selection on his playoffs.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
And actually, after re-reading the post you responded to, I’d say that Thornton did fall as far as Green.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Fair enough, but Thornton has a much wider body of work to draw from to support that he’s truly an elite player, while Green had a year-and-a-half.
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True story. Green could have really helped his case if he came out of the gates like he was playing (when healthy) last year. But the slow start probably made them a little more fearful that he was a one hit wonder.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
And Richards and Carter haven’t exactly followed up their playoffs with impressive performances this year.
Thornton is weird, it’s as if he is now expected to choke in the playoffs so that is only mildly held against him nowadays. Hasn’t he performed well in international tournaments in the past though?
Green on the other hand was this upstart, flashy defenseman who spectacularly failed in the playoffs last year so the criticisms come a little more loudly.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 11, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
And Richards and Carter haven’t exactly followed up their playoffs with impressive performances this year.
Ain’t that the truth? Neither of them has been at all consistent.
I don’t understand Richards — it’s not like he’s changed his style of play dramatically and it’s not like he’s playing with a weak offensive team. He’s still putting up a roughly 30 goal pace, but he’s way down on assists. Whenever I watch him, it’s not like his physical passing ability deserted him; he still makes jaw-droppers through defenders or hitting the guy who’s just coming open.
I thought Carter overperfomed last season, that he was more in the range of a 35-40 goal guy instead of a 45-50 goal guy. I may be right about that, but I may not; I have a customer who’s a huge Flyers fan and he tells me that Carter’s fallen in love with slapshots, instead of using the release on his wrister.
Maybe teams have figured out how to defend those two via film study, but I have to think there’s something else going on there over and above adjustments to opposing defenses.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Feb 11, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Since D’ohboy’s not here I’ll just point out that those guys had high shooting % last year and probably regressed to the mean a little bit. A while back on BSH they did a statistical look at the lineup and it showed that the grinders from this season are equaling the performance of the grinders from last season, but the top line guys, most specifically Richards and Carter, weren’t holding up their end of the bargain. Basically, you can’t blame the PHI collapse on the guys that got shipped out, it’s the guys they depend on not getting the job done. (Unfortunately I saw that post right after the long debate between me, D’oh, and K_C about why PHI stunk at the time.)
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I’m not sure what your argument is. I didn’t say I’d leave Green off b/c of his playoffs — I’m guessing at what Yzerman’s rationale is. Are you arguing that’s impossible b/c Thornton’s been a bit of an underachiever in the post-season? If so, why do you think Green was left off.
I can see Yzerman being more willing to take chances with forwards than w/ D. Again, I curious if you’ve got a better hypothesis.
I think if the playoffs was an issue, it’s stupid. There are lots of guys that have had bad playoffs, and they got the benefit of the doubt. I think it was the high profile defensive gaffes that Green has made. Nothing more, nothing less. I just don’t think Yzerman feels like he can trust Green at crunch time.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
“I think if the playoffs was an issue, it’s stupid”
Well, I think leaving Green off was stupid. We’re in agreement.
“I just don’t think Yzerman feels like he can trust Green at crunch time.”
Agreed here too. But I think the reason he doesn’t trust Greenie stems from the playoffs. nonetheless, the canadian blueline is stacked, so it’s not indefensible.
So Green needs to improve his game...
Let’s see there are approximately 700 players in the NHL and I would suspect there are about 700 players who could improve their game in some way. No player is perfect. The closest players to perfection in my lifetime were Gretzky and Orr, and even they would tell you that they were always looking to get better, scary as that prospect was…
Green is the best offensive defenseman in the league, by a wide margin, and may be the best since Paul Coffey (time will tell on this…).
What is going to happen, in a critical semifinal game against Sweden, Canada will need to score a tying power play goal, and they’ll look for Mike Green to be at one point, and they’ll have to settle for Dan Boyle. Whoops. No goal, no win, Canada ends up in the Bronze medal game against the Czech Republic while Sweden goes on to play Russia for the gold medal (they lose, but they’re in the game).
Oh and Tomas Fleischmann has a 4 point game vs. Canada and the Czechs take the Bronze…
Let's go Caps!
Let’s see there are approximately 700 players in the NHL and I would suspect there are about 700 players who could improve their game in some way. No player is perfect.
You’re arguing something that’s not related to Yzerman’s point. His point was that, in his opinion, Green needs to improve in some areas before he’s comfortable with him on Team Canada over the players who were chosen. Not that Green has failed by being imperfect or the players on the Canadian team are prefect.
My point is that Yzerman said Green needs to work on his game, and I’m saying that every player needs to work on their game. Yzerman called out Green saying there were areas of his game that need improvement, but didn’t say what they were…
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Feb 11, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
I think it was pretty clear what part of the game Yzerman thought Green needed to improve.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 11, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
My point is that Yzerman said Green needs to work on his game, and I’m saying that every player needs to work on their game.
Yzerman’s saying Mike Green needs to work on his game to make the Canadian Olympic team. I read your comment to say that every player needs to work to become a perfect player. Obviously those are separate issues.
This would be a good time for gotsparkly to dig up her spread sheet and FanPost she posted when the team was about to be selected. (Are those numbers updated?) The way Green compares to guys like Weber is pretty impressive.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
A guy on a really good NHL team, for example, should have a much better [numbers] than a guy on a bad team.
And the Caps are 5-0-0 without Green this season, so obviously he has nothing to do with why the Caps are a really good NHL team.
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Oooh burned
So then Team Canada really wants to be picking the best players on the worst teams. At least they got Nieds…
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
If Green wasn’t selected based on the playoffs, then what about Richards or any of the Sharks? If he wasn’t selected because of a small body of work, why is Doughty there (rookie last year with no playoffs)? Presumably he knows about whatever medical problem affected him during the playoffs (assuming Green was ever actually considered to the point that he asked him or the team).
I think an earlier poster had it dead on. Yzerman is playing safe politics. If Canada loses, only the most convoluted and specific series of events will result in him getting flak for leaving Green off the roster. But if Green were on the team and made a single visible mistake at any point in the tournament (even if Drew Doughty ends up making 3) and they ended up losing… then Yzerman would be blamed for including him.
I think it’s sad that Green might have to make himself a worse defenseman to win the Norris. And it is worse if you change your game to give up a playstyle that generates more scoring chances than a more defensive posture would prevent.
But if Green were on the team and made a single visible mistake at any point in the tournament (even if Drew Doughty ends up making 3) and they ended up losing… then Yzerman would be blamed for including him.
Why do you say that? I think if one guy makes three mistakes and another makes one, the pitchforks are going to be out for the former.
Besides overall goals, Green also leads in Power Play goals:
Mike Green – 7 (tied for first in NHL)
Drew Doughty – 6
Shea Weber – 5
Dan Boyle – 4
Chris Pronger – 4
Scott Niedermayer – 3
Duncan Keith – 2
Brent Seabrook – 0
Green’s well known for setting up the majority of the Capitals PPs, which we all know is the #1 unit in the NHL. If Canada fails in converting PPs, that could also be brought up as to why he should have been selected.
An outsider's opinion
I don’t usually come on here very much (i’m a PPPer), but after reading the original article, I was curious to the response over here.
First of all, I have the utmost respect for Yzerman, not only as a player, but as the GM for the Canadian team. Let’s not forget that he wasn’t the only one making this decision about Mike Green. It was a group decision, consisting of the entire coaching staff and those within Hockey Canada.
I think Mike Green is a fantastic hockey player, but I would have chosen Doughty over him as well. I’ve watched a bit of both this year, and I think Doughty is a better positionally. Is Mike Green the top offensive defenseman in the NHL? The numbers absolutely suggest it. Is he a better defenseman than Doughty? My opinion is no, but you could make the argument. I don’t think it’s cut and dry. I think there are other issues at play as well, hinted at by his lack of participation in previous international play (the 2008 WCs excluded).
Greg Wyshynski had a good article earlier today about Stamkos being left off of the roster. His conclusion applies here as well. If Canada struggles to score, it won’t be because Stamkos or Mike Green were left off of the team. There are obviously bigger issues at play if scoring is Canada’s downfall. That roster will be picked apart forever if they don’t win gold, regardless if Green is on or off the team.
I don’t disagree with any of this, except I think overall Green is better than Doughty, and the argument wasn’t against Doughty, but rather against Boyle, for the most part.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
Boyle was brought in for familiarity. Babcock is going to let those 4 guys run the same system on the PP as they do in San Jose. In a tournament where you may play, at most, 6 games, familiarity is important.
I hadn’t thought about that and it’s a very good point in support of Boyle. If you are going to take an offensive Dman already knowing the PP system is a huge advantage.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Feb 11, 2010 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
For everyone that’s saying Green’s offense may make a huge difference I have a couple comments.
First of all, if Canada is struggling to score goals, they have far bigger issues than not choosing Mike Green. They should never struggle to score with that line up.
Second of all, it’s not like they’re going with Sauer back there. All the players they chose have offensive capability. It’s really not that ridiculous.
Now drink with me deeply of the bourbon, scotch, and rye until such time as we are fighting drunk.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Feb 11, 2010 10:09 PM EST reply actions
He’s nursing a lower body injury so we replaced him with fellow Canadian Norm MacDonald
For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
by Rather Bengt on Feb 12, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Florida
|
55 | 27 | 17 | 11 | 65 |
|
Washington
|
55 | 28 | 22 | 5 | 61 |
|
Winnipeg
|
57 | 26 | 25 | 6 | 58 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
55 | 24 | 25 | 6 | 54 |
|
Carolina
|
56 | 20 | 25 | 11 | 51 |
(updated 2.12.2012 at 10:06 PM EST)
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