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Rink Roundtable: Bruce Boudreau's Job Security

[With an unimpressive playoff record to his credit and at the helm of a team with a "Cup or bust" approach, Bruce Boudreau wasn't going to have a whole lot of margin for error in the 2010-11 season, and now that the Capitals have hit a rough patch questions about his job security are starting to be asked - even to Boudreau himself.  We know where Gabby stands on the issue, but we also thought we'd take a deeper look at a potential Capitals coaching change.]

David Getz: Let's not beat around the bush, folks. The Capitals are really struggling right now. They're losing games, they look disorganized, disheartened, and even dispassionate. Many of the bad habits of last season remain and, given that coach Bruce Boudreau's proverbial leash was almost certainly shortened given last spring's early playoff exit, it shouldn't be surprising that chatter about his job security has picked up in the last couple days.

But is it warranted? What's your take on considering replacing Boudreau? Is it preemptive, has it been something we should have already been talking about, or is now the right time to start thinking about it?

Stephen Pepper: "Many of the bad habits of last season remain." That's the bottom line, and why the discussion of whether a replacement is needed behind the bench is entirely appropriate. The beginning of this regular season was replete with acknowledgments -- if not promises -- that the Caps in 2010-11 were going to focus their regular season efforts on "winning the right way." Thirty-two games in, the team finds itself struggling to score a single goal, much less winning the right way, or any way.  It's also found itself on the wrong end of shutouts four times in the last 13 games, three times allowing five goals against or more.

A team with solid leadership, together with the level of talent that the Caps have, simply does not follow up a 3-0 loss at home against the 27th-best team in the league with an uneven (to put it charitably) effort in friendly confines, and then head on the road to get embarrassed to the tune of 7-0. Coach Boudreau looks dangerously close to desperate on the level of former coach Glen Hanlon just prior to the latter's dismissal.  As Hanlon struggled to put together line combinations and devised all manners of new practice drills designed to get the team's star players to work through opponents' relentless shot-blocking, similarly has Boudreau juggled the offensive lines to a frenzied pitch in the last two contests. And Hanlon had considerably less talent with which to work.

Star-divide

I'm sure you saw Boudreau's eruption on the bench following his timeout, when the Caps found themselves down 3-0, still early in the game last night at the Garden.  Mike Keenan during the MSG broadcast noted the risk inherent in that behavior -- a coach verbally lashing into his players in such extreme fashion -- if the course of the game does not begin to turn around. Only later in the third period was any shift-to-shift offensive momentum generated by Washington, after 4 more goals against had been tallied.

Further, whether you lay this at the feet of Alex Ovechkin or the head coach, a captain who gives away the puck with a lazy push of the biscuit up ice, and who then heads to the bench for a change when the opponent had possession in the neutral zone and was already on the attack, looks like a captain who has lost the ear of his coach.  (The two were, however, chatting dispassionately on the bench during the third last night -- what could they have been discussing at that point?)  Knee-jerk reaction?  Yes, it was one play, but one that was so absolutely inexcusable as to suggest a fundamental disconnect between coach and star player.

All of this in the context of a far-reaching offensive slump and still overly-long shifts being taken by some key forwards.

The flu can't be to blame for all of it.

This is a critical season for the team and the franchise.  So McPhee should always be thinking about the fitness of Coach Boudreau to carry his painstakingly-built team deep into the playoffs, particularly given the latter's mediocre NHL playoff coaching record.  Another couple of weeks of losing, and it's time for a change.

BeccaH: I think now is the time to start thinking about it – but only thinking about it. As much as we said Boudreau was on the hot seat going into this season, I think a lot of us agreed that he should be given a full year plus playoffs to see what happens (barring some catastrophic collapse, like a 20-game losing streak to start the season). 30 games in, I think we’re still seeing what this team can do and we’re still waiting for the roster to be healthy and clicking – neither of which has happened for prolonged amounts of time. I just don’t think a lot of the "failings" of this season so far can be solely attributed to Bruce.

It’s tricky because you don’t want to fire someone over a blip on the radar – and let’s be honest, as painful as this losing streak has been I believe it is nothing more than that – and you don’t want to do so as a knee-jerk, overly emotional reaction to not getting what we’re used to. I’ll admit, I’ve had to pull myself back from the "Fire Bruce!!" mentality a few times during this streak (sometimes more successfully than others) but I really don’t think the team we’ve seen over the last two weeks is the team we’ll see in another month or two.

I think the games where they’ve been really good, we’ve seen what the team is capable of and how, when the players execute it, this system can be strong both defensively and offensively. To carry it out the right way takes a lot of work and focus – some of that falls on Bruce to motivate them to work hard and focus, but at the same time these are grown men, they’re professionals, and they shouldn’t need a movie montage and a stirring inspirational speech once a week to get pumped up.

J.P.:  On the surface, there would seem to be two possible explanations for the Caps' current skid - either Bruce Boudreau isn't making the adjustments necessary to win games or the team isn't implementing the adjustments he is making. Neither one of those options reflect particularly well on Boudreau, of course.

But there is a third option, and that is that the team - the players - simply isn't executing at present. Is it on the coach when his goalies are letting in soft goals, his forwards are flipping 40-foot wristers, or his blueliners are making critical mistakes in coverage? Perhaps you could argue that he hasn't prepared them, mentally, but that's a bit tenuous. More likely, this team started struggling with its focus and that has snowballed into a lack of confidence with predictable results. And yet some of the very same people espousing the "Cup or bust" mentality since mid-summer are now calling for the coach's head when the team hits a skid in December (that has included key injuries and, yes, some awful luck)? Get real.

This is nothing like when Hanlon got fired. Hanlon had lost the team (per George McPhee, who, unlike the myriad of folks who now claim that Boudreau is in the same situation, would know). Hanlon's players were sick of losing and sick of being held back. These players aren't sick of losing - they're sick of December. And that's nothing over which to fire a guy who has won nearly two-thirds of his games behind an NHL bench.

Pepper: I think the current situation is comparable to Hanlon's tenure in this sense:  Hanlon, for his flaws as an NHL head coach, remade a foundation of hard work and consistent effort, one that was sorely lacking during the Jagr-era and was a cornerstone of Caps' hockey, the ethos of the organization, for two decades prior.  That appeared to be his limit as bench boss, which led to Boudreau's meteoric rise to regular season success.  Bruce rallied the burgeoning talent that McPhee had assembled and encouraged them to unleash the fury of their skills upon the rest of the league.  Until April.  There, Boudreau's playoff record to date features one series win in four, and three game seven losses at home, last spring's version completing a post-season collapse perhaps unrivaled in NHL hockey.  That looked then, and looks now, a lot like a ceiling.

Ah, but the hopes of turning regular season sparks into Stanley Cup parade fireworks this season were pinned on a steady development of the team's play during this season into a force that can withstand the rigors of post-season NHL hockey.  One more grand opportunity for Boudreau to lead the stacked Caps squad to glory (or at least deep into the playoffs).

Not only have the mistakes of last spring been repeated time and again in the fall and winter (and from regular season night one, not just during this six-game slide), but the current valley sinks ever lower into those lack-of-confidence depths you mention.  Which, if it persists much longer, is going to take a different voice to repair.  McPhee didn't acknowledge that the team was lost until the decision to fire Hanlon was already announced.

All teams have key injuries and awful luck.  Thankfully the Caps are still, for the moment, in the playoff mix.  The Flyers were certainly in danger of falling too far behind last season when they replaced John Stevens with Peter Laviolette, in December.  (After consecutive games shutout, by the way.)   With his "different approach to the game," he only led them to the Cup Finals.  And we all know what the Penguins did in replacing Michel Therrien with Dan Bylsma in February of 2009, when that profoundly underachieving team was in danger of missing the post-season, repeating its own set of mistakes over and over.  GM Ray Shero remarked at the time:  "It wasn't so much the outcome [of a recent game against Toronto], it was how the game was played."  Sound familiar?

Does Boudreau get a pass for now because his team is still within the top eight in the Conference?  Maybe, but time is perilously short for that grand development plan to get re-tracked.

DMG: Certainly a valid point, J.P., but it's also impossible to ignore just what the players are doing and how they're failing to execute, isn't it?  Whether it's a team problem like a stagnant powerplay or trying to force the play up the ice rather than dumping and chasing or more individual issues like Eric Fehr not getting to the net, Alex Ovechkin trying the same moves off the rush, or Alexander Semin taking bad penalties and looking disengaged, this is all stuff we've seen before.

Doesn't that come back to Boudreau either not knowing how to fix the issue or the players not making the changes?  And, if so, doesn't that make it harder to say the team's just not executing?

J.P.: Sure, there's something to that. As Boudreau himself noted last year, "The only thing that's free in the world is habits. And you either have good ones or you have bad ones."

But the Caps could be 32-0-0 right now and there'd be no assurances that the bad habits were all gone. What could this team "prove" in December that would give you confidence come April? The penalty kill, for example, is up from 25th in the League last year to 11th right now, but I don't think any of us would say, "Problem solved." By the same token, I don't think you can fairly say that there are systematic problems here just because they've lost a half-dozen games in a row (or because they haven't blown the doors off opponents year-to-date despite the impressive record prior to this slide, because - let's be honest - they won plenty of games early on that were less-than-impressive efforts).

Flash back to that Tampa game not even three weeks ago. That's what this team is capable of with its current personnel (when healthy) and Bruce Boudreau's system. Now tell me who you're going to replace Gabby with that's going to have the team playing better than that on a nightly basis.

Pepper: No coach can get a team to play at that level on a nightly basis.  But with a team with this amount of talent, you should not have to dig back three weeks into memory for an exemplary performance.

And how about those bad habits?  And being "sick of December?"  Isn't that essentially the same problem as was the case for the last two seasons -- deciding to coast in the "meaningless" games in March and believing that the switch can be turned on in the playoffs?

J.P.: I'm just not buying that Boudreau has hit his ceiling as an NHL coach. He took a team from the cellar to the playoffs on an unbelievable and emotional run in his first season. He took then one step further the following season and then he guided an absolute juggernaut through last regular season and four games into the playoffs before... well, we know. But a bounce or two here or there (or a non-call) and that collapse might have been forgotten as the Caps moved on to the second round. 

Yes, there were things that Boudreau could have done better in that Montreal series. There were certainly things his captain could have done better, and things the rest of the squad could have improved upon as well. But fire a guy with a .679 career points percentage because he lost a few games in early December? Premature.

DMG:  I agree that there's no way this team was going to demonstrate they'd made significant progress during the regular season, but at the same time there's a difference between the team looking like they've improved and being unable to "prove" it and looking like they're more or less where they were last spring.  A team that might have improved is in better shape than a team that definitely hasn't (for the record, that's more a conceptual point than one that relates directly to these Caps).

The question of whether someone else could have this team playing at as high a level does touch on replacement, which is a key issue so often overlooked in professional sports, whether you're talking about players, coaches, or guys in the front office.  If the Capitals did decide to dismiss Boudreau, who would you like to see replace him (note: this can be either a specific person or a coach with certain attributes), and what do you think the likelihood is the Caps would be able to find someone who could do a better job?

J.P.: Right, but the Caps have improved. Their PK is better. Their top-six D are better. Their goaltending situation is probably better. And on a late November night, we saw how good they can be. Then came December and we've seen how bad they can be. It's just way too early to over-react to a bad stretch of games, given that the team stuck with Boudreau this summer. And that last point, I think, is key - if you had confidence in Boudreau after the Montreal series, you have confidence in him now, and there hasn't been nearly enough to change your mind, precisely because so much lately has looked like that Montreal series. On the other hand, if you threw your hands up last April and said, "Enough with this guy," you're probably still there. Obviously, GMGM is in that first camp.

As for replacements, I'd think the Caps would want someone with a defensive conscience, the credibility that comes with winning the Cup (as a player or coach), and a guy who isn't too far removed from his playing days, as this is still a young team and one that needs a coach who is somewhat relateable and not necessarily a task master (sorry, Hitch). Guy Carbonneau and Craig MacTavish come to mind, but I honestly haven't given it too much thought. It's hard to imagine anyone coming in and getting a better effort out of guys that care so much for Boudreau.

DMG: I agree with you, J.P..  Resisting the temptation to add a taskmaster would be crucial, because I really can't see the Caps having the response you want from a guy like that.  The team's consummate professionals will do what they do either way, and most of the guys who might need a little pushing are guys who could just shut down in the fact of an ultra-stern bench boss.

Becca: I really like what Mark French has done with the Bears…but the idea of bringing yet another untested AHL coach in for a team that’s supposed to contend scares me a little. So if that narrows it down to veteran NHL coaches? Bob Hartley’s probably the best fit for a team like this, tough but not Mike Keenan-esque. The way this team is built now they’re not a Ken Hitchcock type of team (and there aren’t many who are anymore), and god help us all if Craig MacTavish takes over.

Having said all that, I’m just not sure that any of the available options would suit this team or be able to get as much out of guys like Mike Green as Bruce Boudreau does. As much as this team was built around Ovechkin it was molded and tweaked to fit Boudreau’s style. And the NHL coaches that I think could succeed with this team…well, they’ve all got jobs already. As scary as it is, without Boudreau it might come down to bringing Mark French in or promoting Bob Woods, someone who is familiar with a lot of the players already and who knows the systems.

Pepper: I think it would be foolish to promote from within again, if a move be made.  

I do agree that Hitch could be a disastrous move, the way the team is built, as you said, Becca.

Hartley seems the best option of the "name" available candidates, and he's got Stanley Cup-winning experience, otherwise lacking in the organization.  That would give the team much needed confidence if and when fortunes turn in the post-season, or particularly when the next Game 5 clincher presents itself.  He also might be enough of a disciplinarian that I think would be warranted, if this current swoon doesn't turn around immediately.  (Though the Islanders passed over him before hiring Scott Gordon in 2008.)   

DMG:  It's interesting to see the difference in opinion with regards to how much of the team's struggles can be attributed to Boudreau, and what it means in terms of how his leash is at this point. It also gives rise to another question: What would have to happen for you to say, "That's it, a change has to be made"?

J.P.: As much as there have been whispers in the past (recent and less-recent), there has never been as loud a buzz about possibly replacing Boudreau. As I mentioned above, this means that now, for the first time, the team is quite probably playing for his job. If that motivation - be it December or April - isn't enough to get things back on track, it's time for a change to be made. These next three games need to be better.

Pepper:  Here's one somewhat random point that may be relevant here.  We've talked about Boudreau's ability or need to be a motivator, but during an ESPN online chat today, Coach said, in reference to the constant camera attention from HBO: 

It certainly doesn't leave you with much privacy. There are times when you want to say things to the players when you wish it were more private. But we've learned to live with it.

Of course, the Pens have been flying high under the same scrutiny of the camera eye.

Becca: For me it would need to be a prolonged stretch of the team not just playing badly but doing so in a way that doesn’t make me think it’s an anomaly. As frequently as they’ve come lately, you’d have to think that these 7-0, 5-0, 3-0 games are so not the norm for a team like this. Ineffective power play? Backstrom putting up frequent minus performances? No offensive output whatsoever?

Some of this losing streak can be attributed to not working hard or executing the game plan, but there’s been an obscene amount of bad luck built in as well. Injuries to key guys (and yes, there are always injuries but having a flu bug coincide with injuries to your two big minute defensemen is just ridiculous), bad bounces, more posts than you can count, insanely low shooting percentage…none of it seems sustainable.

If they get everyone back relatively healthy, if they’re still unable to adjust to other teams and score more goals, if they continue losing for most of December and maybe even most of January…then we start seriously talking about looking for some new blood behind the bench.

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Comments

Display:

What a “dumb” question.

You had me at no problem.

by Ninjak on Dec 14, 2010 3:05 PM EST reply actions  

"...god help us all if Craig MacTavish takes over."

I’m not going to say that this is absolutely stupid without hearing the reasoning behind it but it sure looks stupid.

I mean, he’s a guy who spent his career on a team that had offensive talent that the Caps could only dream about but had to overcome defensive deficiencies to win. A guy who took the only really above average team he ever coached to the finals.

Why wouldn’t you want a coach like this?

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 3:08 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

I don’t think he’s a very good coach. I don’t think being on a good team automatically makes someone a good coach (Exhibit A: Wayne Gretzky) and I don’t think one trip to the Finals is impressive enough.

And as it’s my personal opinion, I’d appreciate not being told it’s stupid, thanks.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 14, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

It doesn't work that way

Lots of people have lots of stupid opinions. Just because it’s your personal opinion doesn’t mean it’s not stupid.

I don’t think he’s a good coach because he played on the 1980’s Oilers. I think he’s a good coach because I followed him coaching for ten years. You don’t think one trip to the Finals is impressive enough? With the only above average team he ever coached? Amazing.

I’m curious: do you actually know anything about him as a coach? What specifically do you not like?

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Now there’s a way to make friends and influence people.

It’s all wrong, but it’s all right.

by OldPhil on Dec 14, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Well you don’t make many friends by airing the NHL’s dirty laundry by digging up e-mails entered as evidence in a suit against the NHL, but I’m sure glad he did.

And as the writer for a (mainly) Oilers blog, he’s sure to have some experience watching C Mac behind the bench.

I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.

by iwearstripes on Dec 14, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I don’t care if he’s Bob Freaking Woodward. I’m sure not going to be influenced by him when he starts out that way.

It’s all wrong, but it’s all right.

by OldPhil on Dec 14, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

No argument there. Surely a poor way to deliver the message, but I put some stock in his opinion even if his method of delivery is flawed.

I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.

by iwearstripes on Dec 14, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually it does sort of work that way. You may not agree, doesn’t mean you’re right or that what I’m saying is stupid, and to say that is both rude and unnecessary.

I’m not saying it’s not a feat to make it to the Finals but Ron Wilson has been to the Finals, too – what do you think of him as a coach? Sometimes teams – and coaches – get to the Finals because they’re the best, and sometimes things just fall into place at the right time.

And you do seem to think his playing career matters because you said, and I quote:

I mean, he’s a guy who spent his career on a team that had offensive talent that the Caps could only dream about but had to overcome defensive deficiencies to win.

I don’t know him as well as I know Bruce as a coach but I don’t think he’s what we need here. And if you disagree…well, that’s fine, it’s your right. I stand by my statement.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 14, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Ron Wilson’s a pretty good coach, if an arrogant bastard.

Actually it does sort of work that way. You may not agree, doesn’t mean you’re right or that what I’m saying is stupid, and to say that is both rude and unnecessary.

No, it really doesn’t. You’ve offered nothing to defend the opinion. I will accept that there’s a range of opinions that reasonable people can hold on issues but you apparently don’t know why you think this, which makes it somewhat amazing to me that you think he’s a lousy coach.

The point I was making with reference to his playing days is that he’s had experiences as a player that should make him a credible voice to the Caps players. When he says “Look offence is great but you’ve got to do this as well…” it’s the voice of a guy who’s won a bunch of Cups as a player in similar circumstances.

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay, you want me to defend it? I was never all that impressed with his work with Edmonton, regardless of whether the talent was there or not. He’s not a horrific coach but I think he would be a Boudreau-lite, not as good for the young guys developing into NHL players. I don’t think he’d be tough enough on them to make any more of a difference than Bruce has.

he’s had experiences as a player that should make him a credible voice to the Caps players. When he says "Look offence is great but you’ve got to do this as well…" it’s the voice of a guy who’s won a bunch of Cups as a player in similar circumstances.

More credible than a guy who has not only won championships of his own using the system the Caps now employ, but has done so with a lot of the guys on this team?

And mostly when I say it doesn’t work that way, this is what I mean – you’re free to disagree with me, that’s fine. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe I’m not. And whether or not you think it’s stupid, and no matter how much personal knowledge you may have of this particular coach, it’s not okay to come on here and right away say “this is stupid”. It’s rude and uncalled for and a simple “I really disagree, why do you feel this way?” would have been sufficient.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 14, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

More credible than a guy who has not only won championships of his own using the system the Caps now employ, but has done so with a lot of the guys on this team?

To re-work a phrase often used here at The Rink, “The AHL means Richard.” Success in the minors, individual, team or coach, does not translate to success in the NHL in any real way.

"Hockey is my life, wine is my passion." -- Igor Larionov

by Scott in Shaw on Dec 14, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Right, I’m not saying the Calder and Stanley Cups are anywhere near on the same level. My point is that it’s a system that’s worked at every level prior to the NHL – and has worked using a lot of the same guys – so from a player standpoint he has a lot of credibility.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 14, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

My other comment critiquing this has gone, so I'll put it back here

I was never all that impressed with his work with Edmonton, regardless of whether the talent was there or not. He’s not a horrific coach but I think he would be a Boudreau-lite, not as good for the young guys developing into NHL players. I don’t think he’d be tough enough on them to make any more of a difference than Bruce has.

This is the first time that I’ve ever seen this criticism about Craig MacTavish. The major criticism of him from fans and the media in Edmonton (which was stupid) was that he was too hard on young players and didn’t give them room to play their game. Of course, the offensive “talents” he had in Edmonton weren’t on the same level as actual NHL stars and he demanded that they play both ways.

I don’t know how you could possibly have come to the conclusion that he’s too soft. There’s literally nothing in his history that would support it.

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Being an erstwhile Avs fan, I got to see a lot of MacT’s coaching, albeit not as much as you. I never came away all that impressed. He appeared to me to be like many early-00’s coaches who got good reputations by coaching inferior talent to impressive records in that he did it by preaching the trap and shot-blocking. Before MacT took over, I actually used to like watching Avs-Oilers games, since they were usually fast-paced affairs with lots of up-and-down action. Not so much afterward.

You don’t think one trip to the Finals is impressive enough? With the only above average team he ever coached? Amazing.

To that, I’ll respond that there have been other coaches who rode a combo of the trap and hot goaltending (not to mention a big ol’ helping of Pronger and career playoff years from guys like Pisani) to records far beyond what they deserved.

Beyond all that, though, what least impressed me about MacT was his seeming inability to develop and coach young offensive talent. I know that the Oilers didn’t often hit home runs in the draft, but it seemed like under MacT, Edmonton was where offensive talent went to die. Again, this was partly personnel, I just didn’t feel that the personnel were better for having played for MacT.

Regardless, I’m far more impressed by what Bob Hartley did in Colorado and Atlanta than by what MacT did in Edmonton. If we’re going for a retread, he gets my support.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

He appeared to me to be like many early-00’s coaches who got good reputations by coaching inferior talent to impressive records in that he did it by preaching the trap and shot-blocking. Before MacT took over, I actually used to like watching Avs-Oilers games, since they were usually fast-paced affairs with lots of up-and-down action

I’m not sure what to make of you labelling the Oilers as a trapping team under MacT. They did it from time to time (as all teams did) but it wasn’t exactly the staple of what they did. He obviously did preach shot blacking. It was a surprise in 2006 when he unveiled the trapping against Detroit to the Edmonton media, precisely because they’d never done it that much.

They backed away from it as the playoffs went on, although people don’t remember this. The Oilers were a good team but that Detroit team was awesome.

Beyond all that, though, what least impressed me about MacT was his seeming inability to develop and coach young offensive talent. I know that the Oilers didn’t often hit home runs in the draft, but it seemed like under MacT, Edmonton was where offensive talent went to die. Again, this was partly personnel, I just didn’t feel that the personnel were better for having played for MacT.

I think that this is a spectacularly unfair comment about him, although a lot of people hold the opinion. The Oilers simply did not draft any high end offensive players in his years there. I tend to think he did a very good job turning young guys into hockey players who could play at both ends of the ice. The vast majority of your young players aren’t going to be Ovechkin or Semin types who can live off their offence – they need to play a two way game to survive. He did a lot with guys like Ryan Smyth, Shawn Horcoff, Ales Hemsky etc.

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that this is a spectacularly unfair comment about him, although a lot of people hold the opinion.

The three that come to mind are Lupul, Penner and Hemsky. All three were arguably some of the more talented players to ever play under MacT, and I thought that none of them reached their potential under him.

I think to sum up your point about MacT was that he did a lot with what he was given. I think the pre-lockout era was replete with guys like that, and that the 2006 Cup Finals run was a bit of a fluke. The truly elite coaches, I think, are the ones like Babcock and Laviolette who can mold their system to the players they’re dealt. I never got the feeling that MacT would work all that well with an offensively-stacked team, his tenure with the Oilers’ dynasty notwithstanding.

The real reason I prefer Hartley is two-fold. First, he took a team in Colorado that, much like the Caps, was loaded with offensive talent and played a very aggressive system. He taught that team how to play defense when necessary, even (shudder) using the trap at times. He took them to three straight Conference finals and a Cup.

Then he went on to lead Atlanta to their three best-ever seasons. Nobody ever got more out of Kovy than Hartley and Kovy is on record saying as much. If Hartley could come in and teach Ovie how to play two-way hockey, it’d be worth it for that alone.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Hartley would be a fine choice. My only reservation is that he’s been away from the NHL for a little while, but they def need a Hartley type coach. I would put MacT in the same category. The best option is probably Lemarie, to be honest. He would get a ton out of Ovechkin and Semin.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Lemaire, the trap master? Beyond that fact the he has said he’s retired from coaching, I think he’s 100% the wrong guy for the Capitals. I spent years watching him in Minnesota, and before that, being somewhat acquainted with his coaching during his Jersey years, and then delightfully reacquainted when he went back to Jersey. Lemaire wouldn’t know what to do with the offensive firepower in DC. Lord only knows what he’d do to (a healthy) Mike Green’s game.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yea, Lemaire never got much out of Gaborik.

I actually think he’d make Green an even better player. I’m not saying his teams are fun to watch, they’re not, but he’d make the Caps a better team.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Doubt it. His system is not longer really relevant in the NHL and I think he’d have fits trying to force the players we have into the system he wants. He’s been past the first round as many times as BB in the last decade-plus.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that’s a bit unfair. Lemaire’s been one of two coaches who, whoever he’s coaching and with whichever personnel, has gotten the trap to actually limit shots/chances pretty significantly (the other is Hitchcock). I know you didn’t write something criticizing the boring-ness of the trap, but I’d like to point out too that I couldn’t care less if the Caps play boring hockey. I’m still going to watch every game I can. Fans are still going to go to games as long as they’re winning.

F&B hits the nail on the head above, though, at least in his second sentence:

His system is not longer really relevant in the NHL and I think he’d have fits trying to force the players we have into the system he wants

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL and where we defend Mike Green, Alex Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin until the bitter end. That is to say, when someone tries to call BS on the Corsi numbers.
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by red army line on Dec 15, 2010 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

It’s like it’s the polar opposite of BB and what Bourne said about the Caps last year. They can run through the regular season by keeping pucks out of the net and collecting standings points, but once they get to the playoffs and face other teams that are good at keeping the puck out and have some scoring punch they can’t hack it because they can’t just suddenly learn how to go score goals.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 15, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

The best option is probably Lemarie, to be honest. He would get a ton out of Ovechkin and Semin.

Seems risky given the way he alienated Gaborik in Minnesota.

by cainoo7x on Dec 14, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

OK, I’ll float a name out there to see what people think:

Larionov

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Dec 14, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Loved him as a player. Besides running his wine business and occasionally criticizing Russian hockey, do you know what he’s been up to lately?

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I would love to see that experiment.

"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box

by Knee high to a duck on Dec 14, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Does that mean we get to see more of his daughter in Washington? If so, I’m all for that.

On a more serious note, I’m not sure that he’s available to coach the Caps at this point. Last I heard, he was the GM of SKA St. Petersburg in the KHL.

by Wheeler on Dec 14, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Nope, never mind. He retired from that position pretty quickly. If he’s available… maybe? I don’t think he’s ever coached at any level, and I think coaching experience is pretty important.

by Wheeler on Dec 14, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

My sig supports this decision.

"Hockey is my life, wine is my passion." -- Igor Larionov

by Scott in Shaw on Dec 14, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Intriguing and a bit out of the box. Does he have coaching experience or do you feel his hockey smarts would translate to bench success?

(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)

by oldemystix on Dec 14, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d be down, I just know nothing of his coaching track record. The dude was a genius though.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably still is, too.

"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box

by Knee high to a duck on Dec 14, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, he was a genius at playing the game and thinking it as a player. That doesn’t necessarily translate.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

What did he do that made him such a genius? I’m sadly uninformed about Larionov

Proud member of the Popsicle Division of the Cupcake Conference.

by Bman21212 on Dec 14, 2010 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t have time to find sources (they’re out there if you’re willing to look), but he when he played he was widely regarded as one of the most intelligent players in the NHL. I believe some used to refer to him as the Professor.

Plus, he wore little glasses and turtlenecks. I bet he even had a herringbone tweed jacket with suede patches on the elbows that he wore while driving his Saab 900.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Still widely referred to as The Professor among Wings fans. I think he even references it on his website.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

He was always well known to be one of the smartest players on the ice, and he was particularly prescient when talking about the deficiencies of Russian hockey.

One of my favorite “Larionov is smarter than everyone else” stories came from this time in DET. I forget where I read it, but it was before the internet explosion so it was probably a hockey news article or something like that. Larionov had the puck and he realized that the other team had too many men on the ice so he circled away from the normal course of play and started skating around the ref, maintaining control of the puck, and yelling at the ref to call too many men and pointing out the other players until he got the call.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

If I learned anything from Youngblood (and I did), it’s that when a team’s star player has shtooped the coach’s daughter, problems can arise, including but not limited to benchings and Patrick Swayze being nearly killed on the ice. On those grounds, I’ll vote “Nyet” on The Professor.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Dec 14, 2010 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Can we at least invite him in so that we can learn another name for pirates’ treasure?

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

What makes you think that he’d be an upgrade over Boudreau? Aside from making it to the Cup once (as the bench boss) his teams missed the playoffs entirely 5 out of the 8 years and the Finals year was the only time he made it out of the first round.

Granted I don’t know much about his system, but it seems to me that if a change is made it’s got to be someone with a wee bit more success than MacTavish has had.

by Yoshietree on Dec 14, 2010 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

For the record I’m against firing him before this year is over. Maybe I’m just an optimist but right now the team seems to be stuck in the perfect storm of injuries, illness and trying to act like the regular season counts for something.

by Yoshietree on Dec 14, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure he's an upgrade over Boudreau

Or that the coaching matters. I don’t follow the Capitals superclosely and I’m pretty inclined to think “Shit happens” until proven otherwise.

As far as why I think MacT’s a good coach – I’ve followed the Oilers pretty closely over the years. I don’t think that their failings are a reflection on him as a coach. First of all, the team pre-lockout had some serious financial constraints and did a shitty job of drafting. Very, very few guys left the Oilers and had more success elsewhere. He’s a thoughtful coach, in that whenever he’d be asked about a decision, he’d have specific explanations for why he did things that, IMO, seemed rational.

As far as the post-lockout Oilers go, they’ve been a poorly run hockey team. He had them at mostly just below average despite having a terrible roster. They tried replacing him when everyone in Edmonton became convinced that he was the problem. The result was Taylor Hall.

I echo everything imbroglioh says below as far as his tactics as well.

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ll say it: the comment is stupid. “I don’t think he’s a very good coach.” What is that based on? I don’t know that the MacTavish played on teams that had offensive talent Caps dream about having, but I do know that MacTavish coached teams that couldn’t even dream of the offensive talent the Caps have. What we know about MacTavish is that he matched lines aggressively, he made sure his players were accountable in all areas on the ice and off it (something Boudreau doesn’t even bother dreaming of), and that he’s very articulate and thoughtful when he talks about hockey. I’ll take some of all that, please.

http://imbroglioh.blogspot.com/2010/12/if-george-mcphee-isnt-looking-for-craig.html

Also, Wayne Gretzky as Ex. A is also nonsensical. The MSM (or at least Puck Daddy) narrative of Gretzky being a bad coach is woefully ridiculous. Notwithstanding the inadequacy of drawing conclusions from a small sample size on a terribly short-skilled team, the one thing we know about Gretzky as coach was that he aggressively matched lines and zone position wrt to his players, i.e. Michalek was on the ice for essentially every dzone faceoff. I think that’s good coaching.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Why is matching lines and zone positions the ultimate mark of a good coach? And I didn’t say Gretzky was a BAD coach, I just pointed out that usually it’s the guys who aren’t the elite talents on the ice who make the best coaches later in their careers.

Actually I’m going to stop debating with you right now because to start off a debate with “I’ll say it: the comment is stupid” is so beyond rude and obnoxious it doesn’t deserve a response.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 14, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I just pointed out that usually it’s the guys who aren’t the elite talents on the ice who make the best coaches later in their careers.

I suspect this is because players with raw talent don’t need to be students of the game. It just comes naturally to them. They see open space, see how plays develop, and learn the tendencies of their opponents. Marginal NHLers need to study the game because they need that edge to help them get past their opponents.

I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.

by iwearstripes on Dec 14, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’ think matching lines is necessarily the mark of a good coach, but I do think it’s an indication in that direction. On a team with certain players that are really good at, let’s say, winning faceoffs, playing along the boards, and picking up open men in scoring areas (let’s call these hypothetical players Batt Mradley, Save Dteckel, and Goyd Bordon), I think it makes sense to utilize those players such that they start in their own zone and/or are matched against opposing players that are relatively more skilled offensively. And when you have players that are great at things like scoring, putting pressure in the offensive zone, generally having the puck, it makes more sense to play those players when starting in the offensive zone. Frankly, basically every NHL coach does this to some degree (some more than others), and the inability to do so is why Russian Nat team coach Slava Bykov is not a particularly good coach when going against NHL competition.

I actually think BB does this, to a certain extent. Also, the Caps are probably good enough that they don’t have to match lines like recent MacTavish or Hitchcock or Babcock teams have done. I guess the biggest thing with BB is that he has not forced his players to be accountable on the ice (praises OV at every opportunity, has rarely if criticized or challenged him this year despite obvious subpar play, the lengthy shifts that have plagued this team for years) and off it (has he challenged OV to alter his off ice cavorting, drinking, and fast food eating to become a better player) that makes me think he is no longer the right man for the job. And he refuses to play his three big forwards together for any lengthy period.

People can voice whatever opinions they like, obviously. But shouldn’t they be open to criticism, especially when voiced in a very public and popular medium. Ok, your comment was not “stupid,” it was uninformed and unfounded. Does this make you feel better? No one attacked you personally, rather only your opinion was attacked. Do we not have an equal right to do so as you to voice your opinion?

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

has he challenged OV to alter his off ice cavorting, drinking, and fast food eating to become a better player

talk about unfounded……………….

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Dec 14, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I think all three are pretty well documented. is BB directly responsible for any of this? no. has BB been able to stop it? no. would another coach? we dont know. is it affecting his game? we dont know, but it seems fairly clear that ov’s off ice lifestyle is markedly diff than the other elite players in the game.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Is any of it documented as happening any time other than during the offseason, months before the season starts?

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Dec 14, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

yea, multiple reports of him out late at night at clubs this season. most recent was the anniversary of some club last week him and the semin and valra were out. obv the sex stuff is well documented (sex before games, etc.). and his professing love of big macs, and there was some restaraunt owner saying ov comes in and always orders mozz sticks and calamari. who knows, maybe this stuff doesnt matter, but i think we can be sure stamkos aint eating that much fried food these days (actually stamkos has said it’s tough when all his buddies go to mcd’s and he cant eat anthying there.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Although, in the past, Ovechkin has made news for his excessive partying and the like, has sworn off most of these luxuries during the regular season. First of all, the “club” he went to was One Lounge. Without getting too much into the details, the most energy Ovi exerted there was most likely from trying to get up from the incredibly comfee couches they have. It’s not a crazy Russo-discotheque in any sense. Furthermore, professing a love of big macs, is indicative that he probably eats big-macs. I’d say ALL players have those off-season treats they wait until they’re ‘improving their golf game’ to enjoy.

You and I both have very limited knowledge as far as Ovechkin’s diet and nightlife, so lets stay away from sweeping indictments with very limited evidence.

Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!

by kingzman264 on Dec 14, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Just to add a little nugget that can be discounted entirely if you want to, AO doesn’t actually drink when he goes to all these clubs/lounges. And when he does it may not be more than one or two. It’s not like he’s getting hammered 4 or 5 nights a week.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Hah, i should’ve included that. The assumption that he is totaly negligent of his “off-ice duties”, as it were, is a bad assumption. This further proves that

Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!

by kingzman264 on Dec 14, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

it seems fairly clear that ov’s off ice lifestyle is markedly diff than the other elite players in the game.

Is it? Or does he just get more attention for it? The Russian media in particular is much more interested in his every move than, for example, the Canadian media is with Crosby’s (off the ice, that is). Unless you personally hang out with every elite player and can tell me they don’t occasionally go out to bars and clubs on when they’re off, it’s a little far-fetched to think we know anything about his lifestyle versus theirs.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 14, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Becca, do you really want us to begin imagining who what Crosby does off the ice? :)

Everything sounds smarter in Tikkanesse....

by Bonzai!!! on Dec 14, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

…ha, fair point ;)

I actually think he’s asexual. He has hockey magazines stuffed under his mattress. Instead of dirty movies he watches highlight reels. He fantasizes about someone tying their skates sloooowly…

::shudder:: ick.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 14, 2010 4:42 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

This maybe the only thing you and I agree about. It’s weird for him, but it’s great for his fans that like watching him play. I wish OV was aseuxual. He may have 50 goals already if that were the case.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t actually think he is, I was joking :P But really, the idea that Sid doesn’t take advantage of his celebrity and status is laughable. He just does it quietly.

You know, Ovi’s had 50+ goals numerous times in his young career. If it’s impacting his game to be a player, it ain’t hurting it.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 14, 2010 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

see above, ov’s diet has been somewhat well documented. stamkos’ diet has def been well documented. they are not similar.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

big deal. Every person is different. What diet works for me doesn’t mean it will work for you. If Ovie wants to have some mozzarella sticks, more power to him. I’m sure Brooks Laich disapproves, and secretly wishes he could have one.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

We’re also talking about a guy that eats probably 8,000 calories a day. That’s hard to do when you stick to a diet of rabbit food. Didn’t the Pens have dinner at Burger King before the Superbowl Sunday game last year?

I ran into Ovie that weekend… at Harris Teeter. Clearly he doesn’t subsist solely on Big Macs and Imperia.

I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.

by iwearstripes on Dec 14, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Was he driving his shopping cart recklessly?

(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)

by oldemystix on Dec 14, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

…so because Ovechkin occasionally orders fried food that makes his lifestyle different? We don’t know if Stamkos goes out and drinks and parties.

And why shouldn’t Ovi go out to a club when he’s invited and there’s no game the next day? Who cares? He’s rich and famous and I’d be willing to bet most pro athletes, elite or not, take advantage of things like that. As I’ve said before, I don’t care what he does off the ice as long as it doesn’t impact his performance, and I really doubt it is.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 14, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it’s pretty clear that it (or something, at least) is affecting his performance. you watch all the games, do you think he is performing close to how he was last year or the year before? I don’t.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

His lifestyle isn’t new, so my money’s on injury. If living the way he did made him a bad hockey player, he’d have been just as bad in years past.

Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.

by SmallZ827 on Dec 14, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

burning the candle at both ends (or just eating poorly) is going to catch up w you eventually. See, e.g., me 10 years ago vs. me today. I believe OV is the most physically gifted hockey player in the world. I also believe OV is not nearly the most effective player in the league this season. I also don’t believe he’s showed any signs of injury this season. Something has to explain that. I’m all ears.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

the wrist injury that he’s been playing through all season.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

i can almost guarantee you he’s played through as bad or worse injuries every year he’s been in the NHL.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

They’re going to catch up with you eventually, though, right?

Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.

by SmallZ827 on Dec 14, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly.

And having said that, we’re now wildly off-topic (for which I’m equally to blame) – the topic here is Boudreau’s job security, not Ovi’s diet and sexual escapades. Feel free to continue this discussion in the Clips thread or OTOT.

Thanks and have a nice day :)

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 14, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh, AO’s performance is tied to this. If AO was the AO of old then we don’t look like hot shit on a plate. If AO isn’t AO because of BB, then that’s on BB.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

injuries are acute, discreet events. metabolic and/or physiological changes due to lifestyle are different. is crosby’s broken ankle from 2 years ago affecting him now? are you really suggesting what it seems you’re suggeseting?

is the idea that poor diet and/or alcohol and/or nicotine use affects someone more significantly as they get older really controversial???

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

injuries are acute, discreet events.

Consequences of injuries are not, especially if the injury causes incorrect adjustments in other areas. Anecdotally, I broke my ankle playing basketball last summer and it took a lot longer to return to running form playing other sports, because I’d adjusted to my injured limb.

Further, playing through injuries may not make them worse, but it may prevent healing. At that point, it changes from acute to chronic and it’s not at all out of the realm of possibility.

"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box

by Knee high to a duck on Dec 14, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

is the idea that poor diet and/or alcohol and/or nicotine use affects someone more significantly as they get older really controversial???

No, but he is twenty-five. Look, you and I and everyone else will see what they want to see. You’ve said you’ve seen no evidence of an injury, I and others point to the way he’s playing as evidence of an injury. You think it’s lifestyle. I just think that if something is going to take one of the best players in the world off his game, it’s much more likely to be an injury than a cheeseburger.

Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.

by SmallZ827 on Dec 14, 2010 5:10 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

You don’t even just have to look at his results. Almost every single game you can find him shaking out his right hand/wrist like it’s bothering him.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I was looking big picture, but this is an even better point.

Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.

by SmallZ827 on Dec 14, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

you have any proof of these “as bad or worse injuries”? I’ve been him nicked up before, but I’ve never seen him struggle to get shots off like he is this season.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

you think the partying and sex and fried food is somehow new this season?

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

…that was cool. Triple jinx!!

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 14, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he’s injured. Honestly do you think he’s just now started eating fried foods and going out to clubs? I highly doubt it.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 14, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

there’s an echo in here :)

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, didn’t mean to dogpile.

Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.

by SmallZ827 on Dec 14, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

it’s just a manifestation of the Japers’ Rink grouthink.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s just a huge unsupported leap though. “Something” is affecting his performance, so you’ll just pick what you want it to be. Feel free to ignore the simple point that you should be looking for a change in his routine rather than shit he’s been doing since day 1. If only there was another possible explanation… perhaps an injury… or perhaps he changed off-season trainers. Nah, it’s gotta be the same “well documented” stuff that he’s done through his previous 50 and 60 goal seasons.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

To paraphrase Alan Iverson...

“Diets? We’re talking about diets!”

Everything sounds smarter in Tikkanesse....

by Bonzai!!! on Dec 14, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Rec’d. Second best press conference ever… First?

“Diets? Diets?!! I just hope we can win a game!”

by Kevin O. on Dec 14, 2010 11:38 PM EST up reply actions  

See also AO’s blog post about Ovi’s weight gain over the years and the quote about how he should be playing at less.

"Hockey is my life, wine is my passion." -- Igor Larionov

by Scott in Shaw on Dec 14, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Link?

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s from here:

http://alexovetjkin.blogspot.com/2010/12/what-ovechkin-has-gained-and-what-he.html

(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)

by oldemystix on Dec 15, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

If it’s well documented then surely you’ll have no problem providing a link, specifically regarding the drinking and fast food.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

People can voice whatever opinions they like, obviously. But shouldn’t they be open to criticism, especially when voiced in a very public and popular medium.

I’m always open to criticism. I wouldn’t write for this site if I wasn’t. You only have to look back on my time here – and my experiences debating with the other members – to know I have no problem having someone disagree with me, and I have no problem admitting I’m wrong if someone can convince me.

What I DO have a problem with is how it’s done. If you call my opinion stupid, I’m not going to listen to a damn thing you have to say. In fact I don’t even think it was uninformed or unfounded, I stand by my belief that MacTavish is not the coach we should have here. Did I phrase it in a snarky, throwaway way? Sure. But I was answering the question of who I thought should be here, not who shouldn’t be and why. If you want to debate the latter part with me, fine, but don’t come on here calling my opinions (or anyone else’s) stupid.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 14, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Calling something stupid does not lead to a substantive and respectful discussion.

(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)

by oldemystix on Dec 14, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

As for Ovie during the season, we do not know how much, if any, “cavorting” he does. Sometimes a girlfriend is around and sometimes female hangers-on seek out the players, but we do not know what, if any private activities happen, how often, or when. We don’t know what time he gets home on nights with or without a game the next day. Just because he was at a club doesn’t mean he got home in the wee hours. We do not know if he drinks too much, nor do we know how often he gets fast food during the season. He has mentioned going to many fine restaurants in the area, diners in VA, and having meals prepared by his mother who is often in residence at his VA home or eating at Sasha’s house. He has mentioned going to McDonald’s after some away games becuase it’s the only place open. He has said he lives a quieter life during the season, so until there is proof of frequent excesses during the season, I’m not going to worry about him.

(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)

by oldemystix on Dec 14, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

But he said he has sex before games! And he said he took the summer off from thinking about hockey! Plus when he was asked about his wrist shot, he admitted it’s all luck!! THAT’S THE EXACT WORD HE USED!!
Ovechkin obviously doesnt care about training, hockey, or putting in the effort to be a champion. If he weren’t so busy eating cheesefries off Svetlana Wanstugetuov’s tanned belly while thinking about clubbing, he’d have the same luck that carried him in previous years and BB’s job would be safe.

by redlineblue on Dec 14, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, your comment was not "stupid," it was uninformed and unfounded. Does this make you feel better? No one attacked you personally, rather only your opinion was attacked. Do we not have an equal right to do so as you to voice your opinion?

It’s much better and nicer to say “I disagree completely” and go on to explain about how the common perception of MacT (like the common perception of the Caps’ D) is not correct. I prefer “silly” to “stupid” if the terms must be tossed around.

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL and where we defend Mike Green, Alex Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin until the bitter end. That is to say, when someone tries to call BS on the Corsi numbers.
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays

by red army line on Dec 15, 2010 9:58 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

MacT

What we know about MacTavish is that he matched lines aggressively

Gretz

on a terribly short-skilled team…he aggressively matched lines and zone position wrt to his players…
I think that’s good coaching.

(Emphasis added)

The reason coaches like MacT and Gretzky aggressively line-match is because their teams are short-skilled. Boudreau has repeatedly said that he doesn’t believe in excessive line-matching with this team because that reduces the amount of time that his top players are on the ice, and on that, I agree with him. Moreover, as one who used to tear his hair out when BB would send Brash out to take defensive-zone faceoffs, the zonestart data shows that BB has figured out who the correct personnel are to put out in key situations.

My issues with BB are less about line-matching/zone starts and more about systems play.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Boudreau has repeatedly said that he doesn’t believe in excessive line-matching with this team because that reduces the amount of time that his top players are on the ice, and on that, I agree with him.

Same. It allows the other team to dictate how you use your best guys.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 14, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I more or less agree with this, see above.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

and by “this,” i mean d’ohboy’s comment re mact had to match bc his teams weren’t as good. I think the idea that line matching reduces the amount your skill guys plays is wrong. power v. power is a form of line-matching, and i’ll take ov-backstrom-semin matched against any line in the league. except maybe dats and z.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Those guys really shouldn’t play together except on the PP.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Dec 14, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

on a different team, i may agree with you. but on a team with enough talent to form 3 good lines, and with the synergy that the three players in question have, i disagree very strongly. if BB put those three guys together vs. MTL, i wonder if we wouldnt still be celebrating a stanley cup right now.

http://imbroglioh.blogspot.com/2010/04/filet-mignon-or-strip-steak.html

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Without looking at all at the production of the second line, the analysis in your article has little value.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Dec 14, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

i actually completely agree w that. ive been meaning to do a similar thing for this season looking at the effect on all lines, but the flash trade and my general laziness has mucked that plan up. but, i’ll note, that in the playoffs vs. mtl, when you lose the last 3 games where even just one goal at any point could have been the diff, stacking the top line just to get that one goal could have made the difference. how much would have the first goal in any of those games meant?

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I just don’t think that stacking the top line would have worked against MTL. With the collapsing, shot blocking style of defense that they play, a team with 3 perimeter guys at forward in at the same time is going to have trouble scoring. Having a guy like Knuble in front of the net gave them the best chance to score, it didn’t end up working, but I still believe it gave them the best chance.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Dec 14, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

From my own article:

“I think it’s an important point to make and realize, though it obviously does not necessarily imply that that is the line that Boudreau should use going forward, as it does not take into account any effects on other lines.”

So, obviously I don’t disagree with your point.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe youre right. i think youre wrong, but who the hell knows. i think it’s pretty clear that one in a million terrible luck is what was really to blame more than anything else.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

if BB put those [Ovechkin, Semin, and Backstrom] together vs. MTL, i wonder if we wouldnt still be celebrating a stanley cup right now.

forgive me, but I don’t think that would have magically made Semin start hitting the net, or made BB make the necessary in-series adjustments, or or or. So much went so wrong in that series that moving Semin and his 0-for-44 self to the top line was not going to be the magic bullet.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I could fathom it being, you know. Ovechkin doesn’t have to drive the net because of Knuble, but with Semin, Ovechkin and Backstrom are the ones to crash the crease. Who knows what would have happened. Like was mentioned above, one goal.

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL and where we defend Mike Green, Alex Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin until the bitter end. That is to say, when someone tries to call BS on the Corsi numbers.
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays

by red army line on Dec 15, 2010 10:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Those guys really shouldn’t play together except on the PP.

Normally I would agree with you. However, right now I’d stick all three together as I don’t think Knuble is getting it done on the top line and Semin is being wasted on a second line that doesn’t have a capable center.

by cainoo7x on Dec 14, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually really dislike power v. power, but that’s another discussion altogether.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Wish I had saved my keystrokes until after you showed up. Incredibly well-put, as always.

Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.

by SmallZ827 on Dec 14, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I am a lawyer and I read very long and well reasoned briefs for a living. They contain opinions and various arguments that attempt to convince the judge of that opinion. And they are routinely responded to by the other side in opposition briefs to the court with words far more insulting than “stupid.” It is not mean-spirited, it is a discussion regarding the merits of an opinion or argument. This is not personal.

by imbroglioh on Dec 14, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but they also pay us the big bucks to listen to the sophisticated way to call us stupid. We’re all hear at Japers for free and for the fun of it. I suppose if you paid me, you can call me stupid all you want. But until then…

Everything sounds smarter in Tikkanesse....

by Bonzai!!! on Dec 14, 2010 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

You made me laugh with your “I am a lawyer” response on this site supporting a DC based team—you know, the place where all good lawyers go: from politicians to the Hill, to the military, to the many private corporate firms, and most especially to the Federal government including the Federal courts and that pesky Treasury department. I can’t walk two feet without bumping into an attorney in the DC area.

You are in lawyer-infested waters ’round heah!

Your rudeness may not be personal in your opinion but it is no way to persuade anyone to your argument. Being an attorney is irrelevant to the discussion.

Alright, confess-how many goals are you going to make this year?

"I'm not going to tell!"

Well can you at least guarantee fifty?

"No way. I have a different objective. To win."

by capsyoungguns on Dec 14, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I think we were taken aback/thought somehow it was a joke we just were the only ones missing, especially given very recent discussions specifically about this sort activity.

I felt a bit like the drill sgt in Full Metal Jacket:
What is this Mickey Mouse shit?
What in thename of Jesus H. Christ are you animals doing….?
Why is Private Pyle out of his bunk after lights out?!
Why is Private Pyle holding that weapon?
Why [isn’t someone] stomping Private Pyle’s guts out?

Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships. - Michael Jordan

by Icebat on Dec 14, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

The four folks that run the site just penned a 3,500 word, balanced and well reasoned piece weighing the pros and cons of firing the head coach. One side issue is who might replace him, and one of the writers wrote a quick opinion of that coach, and this is how you approach it?

This is a key factor. We all tried to be as succinct as possible, and the result was still a very lengthy discussion.

by David Getz on Dec 14, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

How about an hour long, Japers’ Rink version of Capitals’ Lunchbox? We could call it Capital’s Breakfast, Lunch, and Dinner.

Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!

by kingzman264 on Dec 14, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Looks like we're all lawyers

I’d have no problem saying something in court like “My friend has expressed an opinion as to a conclusion that the court should draw without reference to any evidence and, despite this having been drawn to her attention on several occasions, has been unable to cite any evidence in support of her conclusion. While I regret that this might hurt her feelings, her position is baseless and this should be taken into account when awarding costs.”

Hell of a lot quicker to just say it seems like an awfully stupid thing to say and ask for the rationale. People who make strong statements look silly when their response to a strong reaction is to curl into the fetal position and scream “IT’S MY PERSONAL OPINION. YOU CAN’T CRITICIZE ME.”

Looking objectively at his record, there’s nothing "stupid" about saying that he’s probably not the best choice to be the next coach for the Caps.

That’s not what she said. She said “God help us all if MacT takes over…” If she wanted to just say that his record in Edmonton wasn’t impressive, I’d argue that it’s debatable. I don’t, for what it’s worth, think you can reasonably make the “God help us all” argument on the basis of his Edmonton results – if you want to look objectively at his record, you need to look objectively at the players available to him.

She expressed a strong opinion, apparently based on absolutely nothing other than his record. If she gets roasted a little bit, maybe she shouldn’t express strong opinions without having any knowledge. If she’d said “I don’t know anything about MacT other than his record in Edmonton wasn’t impressive” I wouldn’t have commented.

Of course, if you think that MacT was somehow the reason that Edmonton was consistently mediocre, I’m open to hearing arguments about that. I don’t think that there are any but what do I know, I just obsessively follow the team. I think you’d have a hard time finding any buyers for that argument in Edmonton these days too.

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Saying it’s unsupported, which is what your legalese said, is different from saying it’s stupid. Stupid may be quicker, but it’s not the right way to do it.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Stupid may be quicker, but it’s not the right way to do it.

Particularly in light of recent events around here that G.O.D referenced, although Tyler’s excused somewhat for not being aware of those.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Regardless of recent events he should know better. If I went on his site and told him he was stupid because he thought the Caps would be better off trading Backstrom I’m sure it wouldn’t fly.

He also should have expected that Becca’s throwaway line wasn’t intended for heavy digestion by Oilers fans. If he had said “Oil fan here, you may want to reconsider your position on MacT because of X, Y, Z” I’m sure the debate would have been about whether or not MacT is a better coach than Becca gave him credit for rather than a debate about how big a dick it’s ok to be on Japers’ Rink.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

When I say things, I have something to back up what I’m saying. Particularly when I say something strong like “God help us all if MacT…” If I say something strong on zero evidence and someone calls me on it, I don’t respond “IT’S A PERSONAL OPINION.”

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

And now we’re back to the distinction between unsupported and stupid. An opinion can be unsupported and not stupid, or supported and stupid. I just expect more from a guy that runs his own site and has gone through some recent drama. For a variety of reasons, you should realize that leading off a comment by calling an author stupid isn’t productive.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

you should realize that leading off a comment by calling an author stupid isn’t productive.

You should read what I wrote:

I’m not going to say that this is absolutely stupid without hearing the reasoning behind it but it sure looks stupid.

Smart people say stupid things sometimes. I know nothing about her but this strikes me as having been a stupid thing to say.

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Smart people say stupid things sometimes.

Like this:

I’m not going to say that this is absolutely stupid without hearing the reasoning behind it but it sure looks stupid.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions   4 recs

This argument has kind of degenerated a bit. . .In the beginning, he said her opinion/comment was stupid because he didnt hear the reasoning. He didnt really attack her personally. I thought attacking each other’s comments with ferocity and superior rhetoric was what we did here lol.

Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!

by kingzman264 on Dec 14, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Like I said, I have no problem with him asking her to support her position. I just don’t think he did it in a particularly smart manner.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah ok, agreed

Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!

by kingzman264 on Dec 14, 2010 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Quite frankly, this whole discussion has become stupid.

by Moonage Daydream on Dec 15, 2010 6:34 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'll bite

What are these recent events?

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Just take a peak around the site and it’s pretty obvious by the title of the post.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

moreover the fanposts that preceded and followed becca’s (for context). it’s a touchy time in capsland.

by Natty Bumppo on Dec 14, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, this part caught my eye

You don’t have to agree with everyone and everyone doesn’t have to agree with you. If you state your case and support it in some way you’ll generally be able to debate with just about anyone here, and they should offer you the same courtesy.

She was able to state her case, which is something, I suppose. Halfway there.

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 7:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess I just don’t see why you didn’t approach it differently to start. Obviously this isn’t an Oilers crew and this post wasn’t meant to discuss any and all coaches in depth. Do you have a point that she may have been too summarily dismissive of MacT for your liking? Sure. But the second you typed “stupid” you totally derailed any chance that the discussion would be about the relative merits of MacT. You’re surely smart enough to understand that.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Nah, I really don’t. If someone says I made a stupid comment, I try to show that they’re wrong. I don’t cry about it.

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Aaaand, we’ve jumped to victimhood. Nobody’s crying about anything, and you know it.

She said an opinion, strongly, in a throwaway line in a piece that was about something else. You said that line was stupid, without knowing why she said it. Don’t try to turn this into anyone crying except the person who got upset that someone attacked the ex-coach of their favorite team.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Dec 14, 2010 7:12 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

Meh.

Call it victimhood if you want. She responded with:

And as it’s my personal opinion, I’d appreciate not being told it’s stupid, thanks.

If you’re going to play the “My opinion is valid without defence because it’s mine” card, you can expect (outside of a university safe space anyway) to be criticized for it. This is a place in which points are debated right? Can I say “Ovechkin sucks because the Caps choke in the playoffs” and not expect to have it called stupid (that would be a stupid opinion).

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn’t say it was valid without defense, I said you calling it stupid was uncalled for. I have no problem having someone say “I disagree with you” and no problem being asked to defend an opinion if you think it’s wrong – as I (and others) have said, and what you seem to be ignoring, is that your approach was what I take issue with – NOT the fact that you think I’m wrong. Most of the people here arguing with you on this have told me I was wrong before, and I’ve said the same to them.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Dec 15, 2010 8:35 AM EST up reply actions   3 recs

Hell of a lot quicker to just say it seems like an awfully stupid thing to say and ask for the rationale. People who make strong statements look silly when their response to a strong reaction is to curl into the fetal position and scream "IT’S MY PERSONAL OPINION. YOU CAN’T CRITICIZE ME."

Although I don’t agree with the hyperbole here, I do agree that people shouldn’t be able to just brush off any criticism because they ‘agree to disagree with you’. Not sure why it’s such a big deal that he said her opinion was stupid. Maybe they wish you said, “misinformed”

Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!

by kingzman264 on Dec 14, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Let’s play act it.


TD — “Why do you think that about MacTavish? Because I think he’s a pretty good coach.”

B — “[explanation of rationale]”

TD — “I disagree, because [explanation]”

Was that so hard? Nobody’s saying that opinions can fly here without being challenged. But there are acceptable and unacceptable ways to challenge opinions.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Dec 14, 2010 7:14 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I definitely agree. It could have gone alot better, lol. But it didnt. I feel like we can all adapt to “imperfect approaches” to starting arguments and get to the argument, not get all bent out of shape about how the argument was started. I do understand if we want to set a decorum for further posts and such. . .but TD isnt here all the time, it’s a bit ridiculous to expect him to adhere to the rules without knowing them

Furthermore, I just felt like people were criticizing TD for resenting that she can defend her opinion with such a simple, cop-out-ish statement.. .which is not cool.

Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!

by kingzman264 on Dec 14, 2010 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought it was because he led off by calling one of the primary authors stupid.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, that too. . .which in itself, is a misnomer. He definitely said her comment about MacT looked stupid. And he said that he won’t call it stupid until he hears the reasoning. In the end, i dont think he called Becca stupid. If that were the case, i wouldnt resent our resentment towards him.

IMO, this whole kerfuffle is stupid.

Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!

by kingzman264 on Dec 14, 2010 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

You win for kerfuffle.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t buy the thin hedge. “With all due respect, you’re an asshole” isn’t a respectful comment.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 7:51 PM EST up reply actions  

She expressed a strong opinion, apparently based on absolutely nothing other than his record.

Do you really think that? Do you really think Becca had MacTavish’s record primarily in mind? Do you even know, after all the discussion above, why she said what she said?

I don’t think you knew why she doesn’t like MacTavish when you launched your assault, and I still don’t think you really know. You’ve jumped to a lot of conclusions in this thread, but other than Becca trying to avoid a threadjack and deflect things back to the actual issue we’re discussing here — whether Bruce Boudreau should be fired — I don’t think Becca’s said much about it at all.

If she gets roasted a little bit, maybe she shouldn’t express strong opinions without having any knowledge.

This is not the place. Roasting people for expressing an opinion like “God help us if the Caps hire x person as coach” doesn’t fly around here — certainly not if you don’t know why they said it. If you want to pursue it, then the right approach is “why do you think that?” You can challenge the opinion, but, as in court, you’d better ask about the basis before throwing around words like “baseless.”

despite this having been drawn to her attention on several occasions, has been unable to cite any evidence in support of her conclusion.

Your opening gambit was “I’m not going to say that this is absolutely stupid without hearing the reasoning behind it but it sure looks stupid.” You do see the inconsistency, don’t you?

And I’m done. I’ve said my piece. We’ve already ruined much of the discussion for something that the writers worked hard on, and I’m of half a mind to hide this entire thread, but I won’t. Still, it’s a shame that we’re not talking about the actual discussion here, which I really enjoyed.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Dec 14, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I’m not sure how discussing a comment she made in the piece can constitute a threadjack. She brought up MacT, not me. She kind of flitted around trying to defend it a bit, before settling on this:

I was never all that impressed with his work with Edmonton, regardless of whether the talent was there or not. He’s not a horrific coach but I think he would be a Boudreau-lite, not as good for the young guys developing into NHL players. I don’t think he’d be tough enough on them to make any more of a difference than Bruce has.

What do I really thing? I don’t she knows anything about the guy she’s expressing an opinion about beyond his record. The criticism referred to above is one that quite possibly nobody, except her, has ever leveled at MacT. The knock on him in Edmonton was always that he didn’t let his offensive guys play their game and was…wait for it…too tough on them. I always thought it was a bit silly because the Oilers didn’t have the transcendent offensive guys who have to be cut some slack – Ovechkins and Semins. It suggests that she knows absolutely nothing about him, which I figured was the case.

Do you really think that? Do you really think Becca had MacTavish’s record primarily in mind? Do you even know, after all the discussion above, why she said what she said?

Like I said, I think she said it despite having no basis for the opinion and has tried to come up with something after the fact. I figured that was the case at first. If she had something sensible with which to defend it, presumably she would have offered it.

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

You didn’t need to write any of that — you’ve made it all clear already.

And you still don’t know why she wrote what she did. Perhaps asking might have done the trip. But I don’t think you were ever particularly interested.

And now, please, may we discuss Bruce Boudreau?

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Dec 14, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Beyond the “stupid” comment, I think a bigger issue for me is that this whole thing has thread-jacked the comments section of a post that’s supposed to be about the job security of Boudreau. As someone who writes his own blog (and does it well, I might add), you should understand and appreciate just how much effort the authors put into the post. To derail the comments over a throw-away line that’s tangential to the main argument of the post is inconsiderate.

At the same time, by responding to this whole thing, I’ve participated in the thread-jack, although I’ve tried to ameliorate that somewhat with a substantive post below. I think it’d be the polite thing to do if you did the same, because I’m sure many of us would like to hear what you’ve got to say on the matter at hand.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Am I insane? A large chunk of this piece discusses potential replacements, things to be avoided etc.

Maybe in the future, you could guys could “green” the parts of the piece that can be discussed without threadjacking or something.

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re not insane, it was a part of the post. On the other hand, look at the size of the post. The section on potential replacements was approximately 1/10 of the total. Now look at the comments thread. See the imbalance?

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

And if he had just tried to start a discussion on MacT or tried to correct the misconceptions, then it would have been much better received.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Anything else on this thread is off topic. If you want to discuss substance relating to MacTavish, start a new post at the bottom. I’m as much to blame as anyone, but if anything else gets added here that doesn’t relate to the substantive post above, I’m hiding this thread.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Dec 14, 2010 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

As someone who runs a blog

I can tell you that comment threads frequently do not contain content in the same proportions as the initial post. Particularly when (as I suspect is the case with the topic of Boudreau), the original topic’s been kicked around some.

by Tyler Dellow on Dec 14, 2010 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Not really proof of anything. Perhaps 1/10th of the article was the most interesting and most debatable part.

If you are driving in the left hand lane and you are not passing, you are a #$@&$

by alisterio on Dec 14, 2010 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Not me… never took a law class in my life. Not sober, at least.

If you've read this far...seek help.

by ThePeerless on Dec 15, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Stupid?

stu·pid (stpd, sty-)
adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est
1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
4. Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
5. Pointless; worthless: a stupid job.
n.
A stupid or foolish person.

I, Personally, don’t see anything stupid about what was said. When you call something stupid, either absolutely or apparently, you cross the line from objective disagreement to personal attack. You can disagree just as strongly with other words………

Did you read this fanpost from yesterday…… “Resurfacing the Rink: Bringing Respect Back”

by CAPS-Fansince74 on Dec 15, 2010 5:32 AM EST up reply actions  

The question of whether someone else could have this team playing at as high a level does touch on replacement, which is a key issue so often overlooked in professional sports, whether you’re talking about players, coaches, or guys in the front office. If the Capitals did decide to dismiss Boudreau, who would you like to see replace him (note: this can be either a specific person or a coach with certain attributes), and what do you think the likelihood is the Caps would be able to find someone who could do a better job?

This, to me, is the key point. I view Boudreau as a very good coach who might be the wrong person to be coaching this team right now. The question is, who would you put in who would be better? It either has to be someone who’s as good (I think there are few of those out there) or someone who’s a perfect match for the team’s needs.

Making a change for the sake of making a change would be the worst decision they could make right now.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Dec 14, 2010 3:09 PM EST reply actions  

Looking at this issue from GMGM’s perspective also contributes to the argument that Boudreau will not be fired.
IF GMGM sticks with Boudreau for the remainder of this season, and we lose in the play-offs, GMGM will get a bit of heat for not changing coaches during the season. However, I feel most would look past this because Boudreau would be fired during the off-season and most people would be occupied with vetting all possible candidates. I feel like most would also understand that GMGM didn’t feel comfortable with making such a drastic decision in the face of past regular season success. (Even though he would be afforded no such solace or mercy at the Rink)

IF GMGM sticks Boudreau for the remainder of this season, and we win the Stanley Cup (knock on wood), he will be lauded for having such confidence in Boudreau during these times. He will become the celebrated architect behind Washington’s Cup (knock on wood)

IF GMGM fires Bruce, and the coach we pick up leads this team to an even worse season? GMGM would be criticized to no end. He fired the guy we went .687 under! Sure we didn’t win play-off series; but, atleast we had hope!

If GMGM fires Bruce, and the coach we pick up leads this team to a Stanley Cup (knock on wood), he would be lauded, again, as the architect behind their run.

Although his coach likes to play a high risk, high reward type of system, i dont think that’s GMGM’s modus operandi. Firing Boudreau is certainly a high risk, high reward move.

Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!

by kingzman264 on Dec 14, 2010 6:19 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I’m sure you saw Boudreau’s eruption on the bench following his timeout, when the Caps found themselves down 3-0, still early in the game last night at the Garden.

I believe BB was asked about this on yesterday’s Kirk and Mike appearance. Per BB, he was telling the players not to get down on themselves and to keep fighting. If we are talking about the same incident, then Keenan’s assumption that he was lashing into his players was incorrect, although it is understandable why he would think that (he should know).

If, in fact, BB was trying to encourage them and not chew them out, that suggests this was not a risky last ditch effort to light a fire but a coach trying to provide some much needed motivation to keep fighting. Something that probably should come first and foremost from the guys on the bench, not behind it.

Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...

by dcsportsfan1 on Dec 14, 2010 3:12 PM EST reply actions  

I’ll admit to being wrong on that if that’s truly what it was, but it certainly didn’t look to me like encouraging words were spoken.

by Stephen Pepper on Dec 14, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

And I could be wrong about the exact rant that was being discussed. Pretty sure the question was posed about what he was saying to the team after he called that timeout. And of course BB could have been thinking of a different break and/or could have been misremembering exactly what happened.

I agree with the premise that, as with kids, you can only yell so much until the players tune you out. It should be of concern. My opinion is that it’s one thing to be emotional during the heat of the game and another to break things in the locker room and berate players constantly. I don’t get the sense that BB does a lot of the latter.

Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...

by dcsportsfan1 on Dec 14, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Sounds like you’re correct in your assumption:

Among other choice moments, HBO got every word of Boudreau’s give-’em-hell timeout speech during the recent blowout loss in Madison Square Garden.

Steinberg’s latest Bog entry.

"I would feed them lefts until I was pretty much tired of doing it." - Alan May, JRR, 10.16.2010

by bagace on Dec 14, 2010 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Nonetheless, great, very insightful opinions all around. Pepper – I had no idea how much we think alike until this article. I’m voting you for Boudreau’s replacement if Mike French gets into some sort of catestrophic accident (heaven forbid) on his drive down from Hershey.

"Baseball was my first love... hockey is a sultry temptress and stole my heart." - Corey Masisak

by Scoops on Dec 14, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks, but I think my current gig affords far greater job security!

by Stephen Pepper on Dec 15, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

then Keenan’s assumption that he was lashing into his players

Of course Keenan would assume that.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I was watching the Rags broadcast and their man between the benches said that most of the motivational speech was not fit to air on TV. So I don’t think it was just an assumption by Keenan.

Release the Mackan!

by Killer_Carlson on Dec 14, 2010 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I just like taking opportunities to take the piss out of Keenan.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure enough. And my comment was not just to you, but to clear up the issue in general. It seemed like a lot of people though Keenan was guessing or weren’t sure what BB was saying, and your comment just seemed like a good place to throw that piece of info out there.

Release the Mackan!

by Killer_Carlson on Dec 14, 2010 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m almost certain I saw him say “It’s still a fuckin’ game!”, which is pretty low on the Patton Scale of Motivational Lashing.

by redlineblue on Dec 14, 2010 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Now, don’t get down on yourselves YOU MISERABLE SLOBS. Because if there is a higher deity, and miracles are possible, then even a bunch of WORTHLESS TWERPS like yourselves might stand a chance at winning a game!

Er, maybe it didn’t got that way.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Dec 14, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

How do people feel about Bruce’s emotional reponses – his angry and elated moments – on and off the bench?

I feel his emotional swings keeps him from being a fully effective coach. There is no subtlty and very little focused calm. Last season and this season he has had to backtrack on some things he has said in the heat of the moment. This can send mixed signals to players and cause emotional sensitivity ( like a kid tuning out another parental rant because they are tired of hearing it and it isn’t helping matters).

Also, with an emotional captain, is it good to have an equally/more emotional coach?

(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)

by oldemystix on Dec 14, 2010 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t mind. Watching him celebrate a win like a small child or ripping into an official for a missed call is endearing. As long as his emotions don’t affect his judgment, his emotional swings don’t really matter.

I’m sure we can find both mild-mannered coaches (Tony Dungy) and fire-breathing coaches (Earl Weaver) who were wildly successful.

I think it’s Boudreau’s perceived lack of adjustments that people are criticizing, not his in-game demeanor. The players seem to love Boudreau to pieces.

by Joran on Dec 14, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

some of those players would run through brick walls for Bruce. “Love” doesn’t begin to describe it.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay. Hope they start soon.

The ice will show everything.

by cuqui on Dec 14, 2010 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

It’d be nice for them to prove it on Wednesday. Man, that game cannot come soon enough.

by Joran on Dec 14, 2010 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s who Bruce is. Surely that was known to GMGM when he brought him up from Hershey. I don’t mind. It makes for some entertaining attempts at lip-reading.

I was very much the same way while coaching, minus the f-bombs. So, I guess I identify with it.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

If that motivation – be it December or April – isn’t enough to get things back on track, it’s time for a change to be made. These next three games need to be better.

3 games to shape up or ship out?

You had me at no problem.

by Ninjak on Dec 14, 2010 3:18 PM EST reply actions  

3 games is too short a fuse. The team needs to play better immediately, and if improvement (but not necessarly 3 wins) is sufficient, then Bruce might be in better shape. My guess is that he has until the Winter Classic to get the ship turned around. Bruce has won at lower levels, and with some of these same guys. He knows how to win. Bruce’s greatest challenge may well be that he needs to get Ovie, Backstrom and Semin to make some changes, to adjust to the new tactics being used against them. Green already has made some adjustments. If Bruce still has the guys in the room listening to him, they need to buy into his adjustments NOW. Forget about Ken Hitchcock or Mike Keenan coming in. Hitchcock won’t have the tools to build his defensive system right away and Keenan comes with a running clock as soon as he starts. If he doesn’t win in 1.5 years, he wears out his welcome. Hartley might be an answer mid-season, or you might promote one of the assistants for the rest of the season and then see if Dale Hunter or someone else might be a better fit with a fresh start next season.

by NHL Observer on Dec 14, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Don’t discount the games already played. They haven’y looked good for a good while now and have looked piss-poor the last 2 weeks.

"Quint?"........"No."

by NJNJ on Dec 14, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

The fortunes of this team, right now, may rest on the younger shoulders.

I think it is premature to fire Boudreau, but I think he’s got about two weeks to get this thing stablized. It is unfair, but the truth is, his future and the team’s season lies on the shoulders of one of the two kid goalies getting hot and inspiring the rest of the team. Bruce said it after the Ranger game, “we need some saves”. That’s hard on the youngsters, but a team gets an emotional lift from big saves. They play better in their own end and that energy is contagious. It makes the other team second guess their own ability and it drives your team to work harder. The Caps need one of the kids to step up and steal a game in spectatular fashion, to get the psychological monkey off the team’s back. This will break the cycle of doubt among the players about when the next puck is going in the back of their net. Once they stop worrying about every shot on their own goal, the Caps will start to loosen up and play the way they are capable of playing.

by NHL Observer on Dec 14, 2010 3:25 PM EST reply actions  

One of Bruce’s weaknesses is how he handles goalies. If one, or both, steps up it will be in spite of Boudreau.

(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)

by oldemystix on Dec 14, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

How so? From my seat, BB seems to me to treat all his hockey players pretty much the same: play good and you’re in, play less good and you’ve got nachos on your tie. Whatever special handling artists and pitchers goalies need, he presumably staffs out to goalie coaches. I know 37 lamented that BB ‘doesnt understand G’, but a) he was feeling widely misunderpreciated at the time and 2) who but G really understand G?
Does BB do something wrong by (or besides) treating goalies like hockey players?

by redlineblue on Dec 14, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

My only complaint is that he tends to run them into the ground. He’ll play the hot hand, including back to backs, when he may preserve them a little better health-wise if he split time a little better.

Likewise, he won’t rest players if they’re fighting off niggling injuries, even if the game doesn’t matter.

by Joran on Dec 14, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I know Stretch was lamenting Bruce alternating goalies until one wins. He didn’t particularly think it was fair to a goalie who may have played well, but the team in front of him failed and he still got to ride the bench.

by DonCaps819 on Dec 14, 2010 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

But that ‘alternating’ arguably serves two purposes: keeps anyone from getting stale unless they’re Cold. Hews to the plan that was announced o’er the summer, wherein the two children would platoon for about 50 games, giving each an even chance to claim the top spot. Obviously the injuries have kept the team from fully executing that plan, but don’t blame BB for that or quite understand how it amounts to poor management of the goalies Caps have.

by redlineblue on Dec 14, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I can see some sense in that argument. But I also see where it could take an affect on a goalie, where he might clinch his sphincter too tight (man if I screw up and we lose, I’m riding the bench) and make some mental errors, especially with young guys. He knows this players better than I do though and presumably Stretch does so I will defer, but since they’ve both gotten relatively healthy, I haven’t seen Neuvy play as well as he had when he knew he was starting and the same with Varly since they’ve been rotating.

My point is, I’m not sure what the solution is to the goaltending situation is, cause even though they havent been awful, neither have been spectacular as Neuvy had been earlier in the year. Is the solution to make a decision on one and trade the other and sign a backup? Or let it sort itself out, and handle them differently? I’m not sure.

by DonCaps819 on Dec 14, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

While I like the rhetorical flourish of “tired of December” I think it misses the point that this team is actually playing considerably worse than last year, and worse in a way almost guaranteed to produce an early exit in the playoffs.

We score first only 41% of the time. That is 25th “best” in the NHL, and close to last (38%) than we are even to 23rd place (45%). We are only saved so far this season b/c we are 3rd best in the league at winning when trailing first, but once you get into the playoffs and face (1) better teams and (2) teams willing to buckle down after getting a lead, I wouldn’t count on that great ability to come back.

I was in favor of keeping Bruce after the playoffs last year, but now I wouldn’t object if McPhee pulled the trigger. I’m not yet at the point of wanting BB gone, but I’m open to it.

by CarlosLA on Dec 14, 2010 3:25 PM EST reply actions  

yeah that’s where I am

now I wouldn’t object if McPhee pulled the trigger. I’m not yet at the point of wanting BB gone, but I’m open to it.

if they keep playing like this, or get upset in the playoffs again, or blow a series lead again, I wouldn’t hesitate.

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I loathe this discussion taking place already but understand the wagons rallying because, let’s be honest, a lot of people have been waiting for this chance since the end of last season.

One thing that seems to be lost in this discussion is the Caps determination to play more defensive minded “playoff” hockey. I think people expected that this would just happen overnight and that the team would continue dominating like they did last year. If they’re playing better defense they’re probably not stretching the ice as much as last year so scoring will be down from that alone. Making an overhaul to the style of play is not an easy adjustment and the Caps woes seem, to me, to be a manifestation of that change.

The question is whether that move in general is a good one for this team. The previous style wasn’t working when it mattered so the obvious answer seems to be yes. Can the current roster make this new style work? They’re struggling to right now but it’s tough to provide a definitive answer in the midst of so many other issues (Green/Schultz injuries, the flu, hot opposing goalies, bad Caps goaltending, poor shooting).

Tomorrow night’s game will be a very intriguing one. The team should have Green back, will have had a couple days to rest and think about their future, and are playing a team that has been solid recently but is certainly beatable. Caps could be eager to show that they’re behind BB and put forth the proper effort on the ice. Or, it could be another example of playing against a shot blocking team with a good goalie leading to the Caps’ destruction. Either way, there should be fireworks.

by M Root on Dec 14, 2010 3:35 PM EST reply actions  

Tomorrow night’s game will be a very intriguing one…. will have had a couple days to rest and think about their future


I seem to be thinking this all to often lately. When do they actually take this kind of sentiment to heart and do something about it?

"Quint?"........"No."

by NJNJ on Dec 14, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

sorry – I screwed that block quote up!

"Quint?"........"No."

by NJNJ on Dec 14, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Stare Closely

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yes, master….

It’s all wrong, but it’s all right.

by OldPhil on Dec 14, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t want to say that it’s stupid for you to think that, but until you can explain why, it sure looks stupid.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions   4 recs

What you don’t realize is that there is actually a “blame singularity” inside the ring of my doughnut head.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I think I see a turtle…a green turtle

"Quint?"........"No."

by NJNJ on Dec 14, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Making an overhaul to the style of play is not an easy adjustment and the Caps woes seem, to me, to be a manifestation of that change.

I’m not sure we can assume they’ve really made this massive change in philosophy this year.

players seem a little more responsible, D seems a little more consistent. But i wouldn’t call it a full scale overhaul. More like, “something that should have happened 12 months ago”

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

For whatever it’s worth, I’ve heard from some long-time hockey guys who hang out with McPhee (around his son’s games, for example), that the Caps organization has thought from the beginning that Boudreau was always the best choice to coach these young guns as they developed, but they always knew that he would not be the one to take this team to the next level. The conventional wisdom is that he is a good guy, a player’s coach, etc., but just does not have the hockey smarts to adapt and will almost always get out-coached in the playoffs by more experienced and talented bench bosses.

"Hockey is my life, wine is my passion." -- Igor Larionov

by Scott in Shaw on Dec 14, 2010 3:38 PM EST reply actions  

If this is the way McPhee really feels, then wouldn’t it have made sense by now (with three playoff exits in tow) for McPhee to follow his convictions and dump BB?

Everything sounds smarter in Tikkanesse....

by Bonzai!!! on Dec 14, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t know what the official answer to that would be, but my take is that no one expected the playoffs in 07-08, 08-09 was an improvement of sorts (losing to the eventual Cup champs), and 09-10 was a fluke (the company line is still “hot goalie,” as much as I and others here might not agree with that assessment), so BB gets one more chance (at least).

"Hockey is my life, wine is my passion." -- Igor Larionov

by Scott in Shaw on Dec 14, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess I’m trying to find the “grain of salt” to take this scuttlebutt with. Your point is well taken.

Everything sounds smarter in Tikkanesse....

by Bonzai!!! on Dec 14, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

from a completely ignorant viewpoint, this is my complete assumption

The conventional wisdom is that he is a good guy, a player’s coach, etc., but just does not have the hockey smarts to adapt and will almost always get out-coached in the playoffs by more experienced and talented bench bosses.

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Hopefully it isn’t too far out there to compare the current situation in Washington to what San Diego dealt with (in the NFL) a few years ago — 2004 and 2006 Marty Schottenheimer goes 12-4 and 14-2 respectively, and loses in the first round of the playoffs each year. He was fired after the 2006 season. Did a coaching change in San Diego change their propensity for regular season success to be followed by playoff failures? No. I honestly don’t get why people think the same wouldn’t be true if GMGM fired Boudreau.

by cajuncook on Dec 14, 2010 3:40 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah but that outcome in San Diego was as much a product of who they hired (Norval) as it was firing Shotty in the first place.

A lesson which is apt to us right now.

If not BB, then who?

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Hartley.

Patron saint of quality footwear.

by fat_daddyo on Dec 14, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

At least he’s the best available retread. It’s probably a good sign that he could be a fit for the Caps if Alexei Kovalev has a great opinion of him, given that some of our guys have been compared to him. So, he’s a guy who could at least get our guys to play for him.

Rocking the Red for teams on the banks of the Potomac and at the Gateway Arch and Singing the Blues about Hockey.

by CapsFan75 on Dec 14, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Alexei Kovalev

Ilya Kovalchuk.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I could have sworn I read something this week where Alexei Kovalev said that Hartley was one of his favorite coaches and was unhappy when he was fired. (I’ll try to look for a link to the story for proof.)

Rocking the Red for teams on the banks of the Potomac and at the Gateway Arch and Singing the Blues about Hockey.

by CapsFan75 on Dec 14, 2010 7:29 PM EST up reply actions  

No, it was me that you’re thinking of and it was Kovalchuk, not Kovalev. Kovalev never played for Hartley.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Guess I’m getting my Kovy’s confused. Still, it’s not a bad sign for a guy to coach the Caps if Ilya K. has a good opinion of him

Rocking the Red for teams on the banks of the Potomac and at the Gateway Arch and Singing the Blues about Hockey.

by CapsFan75 on Dec 14, 2010 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, Norv Turner is a freaking disaster as a coach. Terrible replacement for Schotty, even if Schotty couldn’t win the big one. San Diego also had a lot of personnel issues since their 14-2 season. Tomlinson aged in a hurry, Merriman went downhill, Vincent Jackson drama, etc.

Release the Mackan!

by Killer_Carlson on Dec 14, 2010 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

A significant difference

Between the Chargers then and the Capitals now is that A.J. Smith (GM of the Chargers) and Marty Schottenheimer were at odds with each other and not working together. The whole quarterback controversy between Drew Brees (who had just started to show his full potential) and Philip Rivers (who was still a 2nd year clipboard holder) drove a bigger wedge between the coach and the GM.

Gabby and GMGM are not involved in a power struggle and the players aren’t divided in their support of one over the other. There is no excess drama, and I think the way A.J. Smith has handled his players has been a large cause of drama. GMGM is smarter than that.

Of course, Marty Schottenheimer’s legacy will always be “Good enough to break your heart” as (I believe) every team he has coached has performed well, gotten into the playoffs, and then lost when it mattered. Norv Turner, on the other hand … is a very good offensive coordinator.

Gabby at least has a track record of winning in the Calder Cup in Hershey.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

by skyywise on Dec 15, 2010 9:06 AM EST up reply actions  

At least the Presidents Trophy is getting out of reach

I don’t want that thing and its bad mojo back in the District…

by Parks Smith on Dec 14, 2010 3:42 PM EST reply actions  

Really?

I would strongly prefer that the Caps win every game they play, no matter what month it is.

by cajuncook on Dec 14, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Not to mention horribly off-topic, yadda yadda.

by cajuncook on Dec 14, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I like watching hockey.

It’s more fun when they win.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Dec 14, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

Me too! I know the reserve most people around here have towards regular season success; but I, for one, just love watching the Capitals play their game to the best of their abilities. It’s just fun as hell to watch!

I hate to digress; but, I firmly believe that if the Capitals could play their game to the best of their ability, they would blow out every team in the league. They played their best in the first few games against MTL, and it was awesome. Then, once MTL figured out how to knock the Caps off center, it was over.

Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!

by kingzman264 on Dec 14, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Too many variables

As much as I’m unsure whether BB can be the guy to lead this team on a long playoff run, I think that there are too many variables coming into play, and too much season left, to replace him right now, despite the uneven play of the last 13 games or so. Between injuries and sickness as well as 2C experimentation, the Caps haven’t been able to ice a consistent lineup with everyone settling in to well-defined roles. It seems to me that between injuries/sickness along with the line shuffling, uneven play and packed schedule, it’s not entirely unexpected that the Caps have hit a rough spot. I don’t think there is reason to panic yet.

On the other hand, if this lackluster play continues through the end of the year, then I think things start to become more psychological, and the team won’t have the luxury of waiting around a lot longer before doing something to shake things up, and usually the easiest way to shake things up is to bring in a new coach.

by cainoo7x on Dec 14, 2010 3:55 PM EST reply actions  

You know who would light a fire under this team’s collective ass? Tortorella.

You had me at no problem.

by Ninjak on Dec 14, 2010 3:56 PM EST reply actions  

You know who likes to light the fire in Tortorella’s ass? Sean Avery.

Everything sounds smarter in Tikkanesse....

by Bonzai!!! on Dec 14, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

that was such a high point for me in a very happy series.

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Dec 15, 2010 9:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Stupid is as stupid does

Relax, the team is losing because I haven’t watched a single game this season (as opposed to the last many years).

Don’t worry, I will order the NHL Network season package before the Pens game.

by FredMilbury on Dec 14, 2010 4:17 PM EST reply actions  

This one is stupid, and I don't mind if anyone says so ...

I’m hoping the team as is with BB turns things around. Period. But if things do continue to go south, BB loses the team and thereby necessitating a coaching change … then I nominate ALAN MAY! Dude is awesome. Bet he would relate to the players real well.

by Lars Rover on Dec 14, 2010 4:33 PM EST reply actions  

See, I would agree with you and say that Alan May would be an incredible assitant coach, IMO; but, your “stupid” comment just turned me against you. Please follow decorum and contribute

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by kingzman264 on Dec 14, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

And that last point, I think, is key – if you had confidence in Boudreau after the Montreal series, you have confidence in him now, and there hasn’t been nearly enough to change your mind, precisely because so much lately has looked like that Montreal series. On the other hand, if you threw your hands up last April and said, “Enough with this guy,” you’re probably still there. Obviously, GMGM is in that first camp.

Over time, though, isn’t there a cumulative effect wherein the resemblances become more problematic and harder to shrug away? Whether it’s execution or strategy, it has to be concerning for their to appear to be something of a blueprint in how to be beaten.

This is BB’s opportunity to show his chops as an offensive coach and line juggling comes across as fairly idle tinkering. I kind of hope this isn’t just some easy and self-correcting offensive drought because they need to learn to become a more determined and refined team overall. Hopefully this leads to that progression. If not then something will have to give.

by Langway on Dec 14, 2010 4:43 PM EST reply actions  

If he survives the season, then the playoffs will be do or die (in more ways than one).

not to be fickle or obnoxious, but this team basically has to make the conf finals or SCF* and he has do some good coaching/strategy/adjustments along the way for me to not fire BB after June.

*barring catastrophic injury or some opponent clearly turning into the best team in history

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2010 5:35 PM EST reply actions  

I’d be down with this. This team is ready to hit the next level, talent-wise, and another first round exit isn’t acceptable.

Now, unless the wheels completely fall off this season and we’re at risk of missing the playoffs, I’d object to firing Boudreau before the playoffs. He’s been wildly successful as coach of the Capitals and I think deserves another shot.

by Joran on Dec 14, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

This quote from Poti is huge IMO:

We like Bruce and we want him to be here. We’re the guys who have to get us out of this. He can’t get out there and play defense or score a goal for us. He can only lead us in the right direction and tell us what to do. When we follow his lead, we win. When we don’t follow his lead and don’t do what he says, we lose. He’s got our back 100 percent and we’ve got his back 100 percent. There’s no one here we want to get out of this funk more for than him.

From Masisak’s latest article

by M Root on Dec 14, 2010 5:39 PM EST reply actions  

I hope Poti is right but sometimes it’s hard for me to believe they have the coach’s back when they get outworked the way they have in quite a few of the losses during this streak, or when the coach keeps preaching the same things over and over again, but no one seems to take it to heart and do those things in the game.

by cainoo7x on Dec 14, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Sounds a lot like the quote from Brooks. Great. This team excels at saying the right things and giving great quotes. I have yet to see that translate to what they do on the ice when it counts.

by Gin and Tonic on Dec 14, 2010 6:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   3 recs

I think Poti would agree with that last sentence which is part of what he was saying.

Point being though, is that questions were raised in this discussion (and elsewhere) about whether or not BB still has the team behind him. This is a pretty clear indication that’s the case. Poti doesn’t have to say anything and if he or others wanted BB out we’d be hearing silence.

by M Root on Dec 14, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

To play devil’s advocate for a moment… suppose the players like Poti want him to stay because he’s a player’s coach and doesn’t work them too hard or hold them accountable the way another coach might.

by cainoo7x on Dec 14, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

For players, I’d assume that winning is the major motivation. Players like Knuble and Poti don’t have many years left and want to win.

A soft coach that doesn’t win will still lose the room. I think the players, judging by that quote, still think Boudreau is the right person to guide them back to winning.

by Joran on Dec 14, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Players will get mad when other players make mistakes and aren’t held accountable for it. All these guys want to win and if it means they have to get chewed out a few times then I bet they’d want to take that route.

by hockeyman33 on Dec 14, 2010 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I think only players who care about more other things than winning, such as Albert Haynesworth, are going to want to keep a coach that doesn’t work them hard, hold them accountable, or help them win.

by vtcapsfan99 on Dec 14, 2010 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

a coach that doesn’t work them hard, hold them accountable, or help them win

Is the implication here and in cainoo7x’s post that BB is none of the above?

by Yoshietree on Dec 14, 2010 9:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Honestly, I read that article a little bit as “you’re doing a heckuva job, Brucie.”

by Wheeler on Dec 14, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

ha

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Dec 15, 2010 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Good on Poti. I also think that canning Boudreau is as far from GMGM’s mind as it can possibly be. Is it Boudreau’s fault that
Ovechkin, Semin, Backis, Laich, Fehr, Green,et al, forgot how to score? That Varly and Neuvy are missing routine saves, after some stellar stretches of tending? That the players suddenly forgot his system? That these young kids sometimes collapse under the weight of massive expectations?

It aint easy, and memories are short. I echo JP’s sentiments that a coach who has won nearly 7 out of every 10 games is doing something right.

by S h a g g y on Dec 14, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

He can’t get out there and play defense

And he never could!

The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.

by Steckel Me Elmo on Dec 14, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

There’s no one here we want to get out of this funk more for than him.

That worries me. I would hope everyone would be contending for that title.

Think twice before you speak, and then you may be able to say something more insulting than if you spoke right out at once.

by zephyr on Dec 14, 2010 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

These quotes don’t carry much weight for me.

A journalist asks a player “what do you think of your head coach?”

The response is always going to be positive. Always.

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by Kolzilla on Dec 14, 2010 11:30 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

agree

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Dec 15, 2010 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Probably OT, but I’d love to see one of these roundtables on Ovi’s leadership and tenure as captain.

If BB is not responsible for the poor play, then it’s the players. If it’s the players I think the responsibility is on Ovi’s shoulders not those of either goalie.

by Gin and Tonic on Dec 14, 2010 6:04 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Can you judge his captainship after 12 months, of which only 7 or 8 were on the ice?

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by STLSpidey on Dec 14, 2010 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

And can anyone REALLY argue with his leadership. His play has been consistently off the charts for his entire career (pretty much) except for an ugly month here in December. I don’t think pointing at Ovechkin is right, or warranted by any means. While I do think this rests on the players shoulders, it rests on ALL of their shoulders, not just one guy.

by aaw6848 on Dec 14, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Is it on the coach when his goalies are letting in soft goals, his forwards are flipping 40-foot wristers, or his blueliners are making critical mistakes in coverage?

Absolutely it is. Each one of those is perfect examples of terrible coaching. What’s most saddening about this is that we have to even ask the question because it seems intuitively obvious.

When we’re regularly outshooting our opponents 11.5 shots per game and still coming up on the wrong end of the stick, you have to know in your gut there’s something wrong with our entire gameplan. It’s Boudreau’s job to tell idiots not to take 40-foot wristers and to stop taking the easily blocked shots from the perimiter. It’s Bob Woods’ job to go over coverage areas with his defense and explain the concept of plus minus with anyone other than Jeff Shultz. It’s Artus Irbe’s job to work on a quicker glove hand (Varly), more sound positioning, or playing with a less aggressive style (Holtby).

I agree that maybe, just maybe it’s a bit premature to get rid of a 48% post-season winning Head Coach until he proves again this Spring that he’s incapable of chaning his gameplan mid-stride… but it certainly is way overdue for some of the superfluous assistant coaches to go, as they’ve proved that they, more often than not, make themselves expendable.

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by Scoops on Dec 14, 2010 6:11 PM EST reply actions  

As much as I would like to agree with this, and allow blame to rest on BB – It doesn’t.

A coach can teach the system and bark out corrections to players, and as far as I can tell from watching the games on TV – he is doing that. Players making bonehead plays and fucking up because they can’t stop losing and are squeezing their buttcheeks too tight while they play, is a job for the Captain and the players to fix.

Even the stat you gave, us outshooting other teams by a good margin – this is evidence of a system that is working and getting shots on net. The PP, I won’t discuss, because it goes counter to my argument.

by aaw6848 on Dec 14, 2010 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I whole-heatedly disagree. A high shot total do not equate a pedigree Team. If you need proof, look no further than the 2009-2010 Toronto Maple Leafts. Despite leading the league the vast majority of the season in shot totals and perhaps ending there, they were in the bottom of the basement the entire time. Shots do not equate goals. Grit, hard work, and determination do, and right now only 2-3 individuals on the Team are exhibiting that. The habits they’ve formed remind me of a very immature collegiat hockey Team that thinks the more clear shots you get from the perimiter and blue line, which are the easiest ones to stop for any goaltender, the more games you’re going to win. That’s a fundamental misunderstanding of how to score a goal at the NHL level and is a coaching issue.

Bottom line: either Boudrea’s not preaching the right sermon (which he may very well be), or the guys just aren’t listening to the preacher anymore, which is a significantly greater issue. Both do not speak well to Boudrea’s ability to coach this Team right now.

"Baseball was my first love... hockey is a sultry temptress and stole my heart." - Corey Masisak

by Scoops on Dec 15, 2010 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

The Leafs had high shot totals in large part because they spent the entire season trailing. Such is the life with Vesa Toskala.

Shots do not equate goals.

I’d disagree. It’s not all that there is to making goals, but looking at the differences between goalies, it’s max what, 3%. Not much. The best teams since the lockout—Pittsburgh under Bylsma, the Red Wings of 0708 and 0809, the 0910 Hawks, and some others—have been clinical at both getting shots on goal and preventing shots at the other end.

That being said, grit, hard work, etc etc are what go towards increasing shot quantity. Being +11 shots a game recently though can’t really be a bad thing.

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by red army line on Dec 15, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t want to take the discussion away from Bruce Boudreau as a coach; but, what about a change in assistant coaching? What if GMGM were to hire someone as an assistant coach and have him there to complement Bruce Boudreau?

Making a move at assitant coach would obviously allow Boudreau to still be with the team, but would get a fresh face behind the bench. I don’t know how much GMGM could do to extend this new assistant coach’s powers; but, I’m sure something could be done to give the assistant coach more involvement with the team.

Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!

by kingzman264 on Dec 14, 2010 6:39 PM EST reply actions  

I love this idea in the abstract. I just can’t see a way that it could work practically without causing the current coaching staff to feel even more threatened than they probably do right now. (Because despite what Bruce said to the media, he certainly seems to be worried for the team, and maybe for himself.) It’s too much like the arrival of consultants in your office — you just know there’s a layoff coming eventually.

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by CapitalCentre on Dec 14, 2010 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

The funny thing is...

I would bet a good chunk of my paycheck that exactly a month from now we have forgotten about all of this and are enjoying a nice little win streak, and a steady journey back to the top of the league standings…never really giving thought to this subject again (at least for a while)

by aaw6848 on Dec 14, 2010 6:57 PM EST reply actions  

If you’re betting that the Caps finish on top of the standings, then I’ll take you up on that. I can’t afford much downside exposure, but I’d do a $5 charity bet, or a beer, or whatever.

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by Knee high to a duck on Dec 14, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

How about a charity beer?

I talked about Fight Club

by Steck It Out on Dec 14, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d be willing to bet a beer/charity bet that the Caps finish first in the Southeast Division… I doubt we’ll finish with the President’s Trophy though.

by Joran on Dec 14, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

haha. I never said where they’d end up at the end of the season..but if you take a look at the current standings, even a short win-streak would put us back where we want to be. That’s all I’m saying.

But I don’t think it would be absurd to say we could still take the President’s trophy again. We have the ability to win a ton of games. Mind you, this is a bad slump – but its only 6 games.

by aaw6848 on Dec 14, 2010 7:02 PM EST up reply actions  

charity for So Kids Can? :)

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by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 10:00 PM EST up reply actions  

The coach the Caps really need is Mike Tomlin. Unfortunately, he’s taken and I don’t see him becoming available any time soon.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 6:58 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

Too early to overreact.

We’re still 2 months into the regular season; losing spells happen.

Remember when we made the Chimera trade last year? Caps went into a pretty big funk around that time, and everything turned out hunky-dory.

I talked about Fight Club

by Steck It Out on Dec 14, 2010 6:58 PM EST reply actions  

in the regular season, yes.

On the whole, I agree with you. I want the team to come back and be healthy. Get some time together to re-gel, and then if we keep playing like this, worry. But right now, there are just too many “reasons” for why this could be happening for me to really, REALLY, get worked up over it.

by aaw6848 on Dec 14, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Too many distractions.

Injuries, flu bug, Winter Classic.

Once everything passes over, things are sure to be back to normal.

I talked about Fight Club

by Steck It Out on Dec 14, 2010 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

in the regular season, yes.

ding ding ding

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Dec 15, 2010 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Isn’t it always too early to overreact, by definition?

Release the Mackan!

by Killer_Carlson on Dec 14, 2010 9:01 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I didn’t have to read past the subject line to know I loved this post.

The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.

by Steckel Me Elmo on Dec 14, 2010 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Eloquently stated. I just happen to be on the more optimistic side of your argument. Maybe Boudreau gets it together and this is the year.

If he has another first round flameout, then I’m all for finding another coach.

by Joran on Dec 14, 2010 7:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Not an invalid opinion at all. My only fear with that is that the Caps are likely going to go through a major overhaul this offseason due to pending free agents. This means that this post-season is the last chance for this group of players. The team will probably be much younger next year, as guys like Johansson and possibly Kuznetsov join the team. It remains to be seen how that development will unfold. Personally, I’m of the opinion that the Caps had a window that started two years ago and is going to close after this year, and that it will hopefully re-open in a couple years when Johansson, Kuznetsov and Galiev develop into NHL players.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I also think the team will be reluctant to replace him because his failings are largely due to his system – which is used by every coach in the organization – and his inability to modify it. If one of the assistants were really that good at making tactical adjustments (such that they’d be an improvement over Boudreau as head coach), we’d likely see some evidence of it on the ice, and yet we have not.

Sort of disagree. First, we don’t really know what’s happening in Hershey or what Woods would do if he had it his way. We know that the systems are similar, but I’d bet cash (which I have precious little of) that Woods and French wouldn’t do things exactly the same as BB. You see disciples promoted in sports all the time, and frequently you see small changes in the systems or approaches yielding big results. Sometimes that’s the coaches coaching differently, sometimes it’s just the players deciding to play. A quick example would be the Cowboys, I guess. They just promoted the same OC, but for whatever reason now the offense is lighting it up with the back up QB. Same guy, same basic system, but with more freedom and control the results have been better. I agree that a promotion from within is probably not the best route right now, but I don’t foreclose the possibility just because I don’t really know enough about Woods and French. They may have subtle ideas that would improve the performance/execution of the team.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, we probably agree more than you think.

With regard to adjustments, I think French has shown that he could make adjustments as needed. I was a little less impressed with Woods.

I think my larger point was that, if the Caps make an internal move this year, we won’t see the contrast in styles that we did when Boudreau took over for Hanlon. At most, we’ll see an evolution. Maybe that would be enough under a guy like French.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree it won’t be a total style change, but I don’t think it has to be. I think this team needs to be an offensive power just because of the lineup; it doesn’t need a complete overhaul like it did after Hanlon.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 14, 2010 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

agree on all, for better or worse (deep pathological fear of choking in the playoffs again)

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Dec 15, 2010 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I apologize for having to hide a long thread, but the signal to noise got too high. It’s a shame, because there was some good content in there mixed in with the rest.

Please keep further comments on topic.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Dec 14, 2010 7:28 PM EST reply actions  

I wholeheartedly agree about trying to stay on topic.

But I went ahead and pulled rank on Gouldie and un-hid the comments for the sake of transparency. Carry on.

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by J.P. on Dec 14, 2010 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

/Wiki-Leak’d/

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m like Julian Assange, minus the “ange.”

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by J.P. on Dec 14, 2010 7:50 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Have we really said J.P that many times?

Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!

by kingzman264 on Dec 14, 2010 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

nope

we haven’t said JP that many times. his is the Wordle from above the line.

here is the Wordle from below the line (it’s a rocket ship!). i was just playing the “find BOUDREAU” game and struggling mightily.

by Natty Bumppo on Dec 14, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

I was wondering why “stupid” didn’t show up in the one JP posted…

The ice will show everything.

by cuqui on Dec 14, 2010 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Very few mentions of the Caps coach, but it’s good to see that Caps fans still BBbelieve!

Release the Mackan!

by Killer_Carlson on Dec 14, 2010 10:43 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

lots of thinking going on

that’s good – I think

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Dec 15, 2010 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

The color scheme is an added touch. Nicely done. A potential SBNation meme, to boot.
(I imagine PPP’s would just be a giant medium blue TRUCULENCE?)

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by winterion on Dec 14, 2010 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I would say that Boudreau should remain coach — at least through the Winter Classic. But it may be time for the management (Leonsis and GMGM) to think about how long a leash he should get if the losing ways continue. The management would probably let him go if they lost every game from now through the WC. Granted, the chances of that happening are very slim. IMHO. Or if the team falls into 9th place or lower between now and late February.

More likely, the Caps will turn it around and make it into the playoffs. And then we see what happens.

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by CapsFan75 on Dec 14, 2010 8:19 PM EST reply actions  

I myself was wondering what the impact the WC might have on all of this.

It’s hard to imagine them firing BB in the middle of what is likely to be the most national exposure the team is ever likely to get short of playing in the Stanley Cup Finals (and possibly even more than that). Even if they lost, say, three more in a row, that would leave the new coach little time to do anything and would probably end with a pretty ugly WC results. Not to mention having the entire incident being followed by HBO.

Just can’t see anything happening until after WC no matter how ugly it gets, losing every game until then included.

And while on the topic of WC…the Pens lost tonight, we can now officially go back to winning.

by M Root on Dec 14, 2010 10:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Possible Coaching replacements:

Hartley sounds like the best retread of the available ones. Hitchcock would be wrong for the Caps with his style. And while the Caps could probably use more discipline, Keenan would go overboard in that department.

Of the AHL’ers, probably Mark French of Hershey. A disciple of Boudreau but one who we know is good at adjustments in the playoffs. Sometimes a style is good but another person may be the one who perfects it.

Rocking the Red for teams on the banks of the Potomac and at the Gateway Arch and Singing the Blues about Hockey.

by CapsFan75 on Dec 14, 2010 8:23 PM EST reply actions  

Remember when...

..this team was never out of a game last year regardless of whether they were down 2, 3, or even 4 goals? Remember the win in (I think) Montreal when they came back from being down 5-1 and ended up winning 6-5?

Such a far cry from the current state the team now..

by the_SwampFox on Dec 14, 2010 8:29 PM EST reply actions  

or maybe it was Toronto..I just remember it being in Canada.

by the_SwampFox on Dec 14, 2010 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

That team sure had confidence. Can’t say exactly the same about this one, right now anyways.

by hockeyman33 on Dec 14, 2010 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

When you look at shot counts and such, Chicago was far and away the best team last year (they just got below-replacement-level goaltending), and the Caps were good-not-great. However, down 3 goals I think the Capitals were the best in the league (down 2 Chicago was still the best, but Washington was in the same stratosphere). It helped that Washington shot ~2% better than anyone else last season.

Can’t make those comebacks when your shooting luck is poor. I wouldn’t pin any of that on BB, though. From last year to this year I don’t think much has changed in coaching.

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by red army line on Dec 15, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

It certainly doesn’t leave you with much privacy. There are times when you want to say things to the players when you wish it were more private. But we’ve learned to live with it.

Of course, the Pens have been flying high under the same scrutiny of the camera eye

I think it’s a lot easier to be under the camera eye when you’re winning than when you’re losing. Lame excuse either way.

As far as BB’s job:
I agree with a lot of what all of you said and I know the Caps are still going to put together a successful regular season despite this “blip.”
Although, if these bad habits aren’t broken under the guidance of Boudreau or some divine intervention we’re going to be having this same discussion again in May. And honestly, I would rather be making a replacement decision within the next month or so.

With that said, I’m not sure who would take the job and if it would just be guaranteeing better success for the Caps next playoffs instead of now.

Think twice before you speak, and then you may be able to say something more insulting than if you spoke right out at once.

by zephyr on Dec 14, 2010 9:41 PM EST reply actions  

How would it Work?

Personally, I don’t think Bruce is going anywhere, but I’m curious about something. How would it work? Let’s say GMGM has a threshold in mind and it grows ever more near. Does he begin making discreet phone calls on a “just in case” basis? I’d think he’d have to, unless he brings up French from Hershey.

by mechanicsville on Dec 14, 2010 10:04 PM EST reply actions  

you are what your record says you are...

was that Belicheck or Parcells? Regardless, the Caps have played the sum total of one complete 60-minute game this season…the 6-0 beatdown of Tampa. Other than that, there have been good periods here and there…but these chickens (the bad habits that they’ve been able to overcome on talent alone) are coming home to roost. Ovechkin came back to DC in the worst shape he’s ever been in to start a season, and hasn’t display the high-level of energy that have marked the first five years of his career. Backstrom has had a sub-par season, and Green has been injured, or missing in action for the better part of the year. We’re 9 games away from the 1/2 way mark of the season…and Atlanta is within two points of the Caps with the game in hand…Neuvirth won them a good number of games early,,,if he hadn’t, I think Boudreau would already be gone.

…or maybe this is a rope-a-dope thing NHL-style?

by shotfromthepoint on Dec 14, 2010 10:08 PM EST reply actions  

It was Bill Parcells.

Our record says that we’re a top 4 team in the NHL, but it sure doesn’t feel like it. That said, the Caps are much closer to the top than the bottom, despite the poor play.

It could be worse… We could be New Jersey.

by Joran on Dec 14, 2010 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Just out of curiosity, but does anyone know how long Bruce is under contract for? I know terms of coaches contract are rather difficult to come by. All I recall is McPhee stating that no other team could have Bruce because “He’s ours for a long time” back in 2008.

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by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 10:19 PM EST reply actions  

How do we get to Red Wings tenacity

Watching “NHL On The Fly” and the Red Wings are awfully impressive! Using a football analogy, they’re the New England Patriots and we’re the San Diego Chargers! Lot’s of flash but no substance. Don’t get me wrong, I love my Caps, but I’d love to have a Mike Babcock running our show. Step up to the plate BB and make a believer out of me, PLEASE!

by Sealteam3 on Dec 14, 2010 11:01 PM EST reply actions  

in what ways do you mean? Is it the systems that the Wings run? Their workout fanaticism? The way Babcock seems to be a real hardass? (Babcock, btw, just signed a 3 year contract extension)

Keep in mind, even good teams have bad games. Wings just lost 5-0 to the Kings after putting up 51 SOG. And they too lost to the Thrashers recently.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ll retread a tad, too, and say that I really don’t think there’s much Bruce can do to improve the current situation. All of those hit posts? All of the softies through both of Neuvirth and Varlamov? Missing our 2 best D in the entire organization? An apparent devastating flu epidemic in the locker room? Honestly, I just can’t pin a lot of the blame on BB until he’s got a slightly better set of circumstances to play with.

by DrinkingPartner on Dec 14, 2010 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

But the Wings sure looked good the game before. I found myself wishing the Caps looked that good. The Wings were hitting on all 8 cylinders.

And as it’s my personal opinion, I’d appreciate not being told it’s stupid, thanks.

by hotdog88gt on Dec 14, 2010 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

It is the systems that they run, yes. The forwards backcheck, the defensemen start the rush efficiently and it seems they are a tightly efficient unit. I would not be surprised if they are right there at the SC Finals barring injury. Is Babcock are hardass? Didn’t know that but wouldn’t surprise me at all! Overall, they seem to be a more efficiently run organization. I just want the Caps to be the best that they can be and wonder if BB can bring that out in them?

by Sealteam3 on Dec 14, 2010 11:15 PM EST reply actions  

here is something I know about the Wings that I’m less sure about the Caps: the players all hold each other accountable, that they have extremely solid, unquestioned leadership in the room. Which is not to say that the Caps don’t have leaders, but it’s at a different level in Detroit.

Players here show flashes of leadership, and they certainly say the right things, but I don’t get that same feeling that I get from the stacked team of Cup winning veterans they have in Detroit. And I think that leadership, that ability collective internal accountability, that goes a long way to making them an extremely good team. Even when they struggled and were a playoff bubble team for much of last season, I never got a sense of panic from them.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 11:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I remember a quote from Babcock: “if every player were like Nicklas Lidstrom, we coaches would be out of a job” (or something close to that, referring to Lidstrom being an on-ice coach and leader)

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL and where we defend Mike Green, Alex Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin until the bitter end. That is to say, when someone tries to call BS on the Corsi numbers.
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
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by red army line on Dec 15, 2010 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Can I actually post here without an icon without being FLAMED? Is it possible that someone can comment here that isn’t the same bunch of about 40 people?

by pearlgirl on Dec 14, 2010 11:40 PM EST reply actions  

They don’t want to be thought of as “elite” even if that is exactly how they come across – here’s s fun one: disagree with one of the four and watch the swarm take over.

If you are driving in the left hand lane and you are not passing, you are a #$@&$

by alisterio on Dec 14, 2010 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahh! Thanks for the tip! I think I won’t fit in here, so I expect I’ll be beaten by the swarm, as well as the a++hole who fusses about the lack of an icon. Oh well.

by pearlgirl on Dec 14, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

what makes you think you won’t fit in here? And if you are so sure about that, why are you here? And, finally, why are you deliberately posting off topic stuff in a very on-topic thread?

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 11:58 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Thanks, D’ohby – good job. I’ll try to be cool.

by pearlgirl on Dec 15, 2010 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

We all want new folks to join. I understand that there are some serious barriers to entry but this is a cool place for chatting about hockey and we’re glad to have you.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 15, 2010 12:04 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Sort of seems like you’re trolling and trying deliberately to not “fit in.” Your post has nothing to do with the topic and you’re just calling people names.

How about we all start over?

Think twice before you speak, and then you may be able to say something more insulting than if you spoke right out at once.

by zephyr on Dec 15, 2010 12:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Not a troll, I can assure you. Huge Caps fan.

by pearlgirl on Dec 15, 2010 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

So, any thoughts on BB’s job security?

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 15, 2010 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Suspect he’ll be fine.

by pearlgirl on Dec 15, 2010 12:06 AM EST up reply actions  

trolls can be of any affiliation—caps pens or whalers. according to wikipedia, a troll is anyone “who posts inflammatory, extraneous or off-topic messages, with the primary intent of provoking community members into an emotional response or otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.” [link]

by Natty Bumppo on Dec 15, 2010 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

this seems as good a spot as any to add some helpful links, in case people haven’t seen them.

First up, Natty’s hilarious Japers’ Rink Glossary, Version 2.0</a I re-read it last night and was near tears. Helpfully explains some of the “in-jokes” like avatars, as well as the more interesting nicknames some players have acquired.

Community Guidelines. We’re all well served to review them every now and then.

The immensely helpful but probably underutilized FanPosts and FanShots: A User’s Guide.

if anyone feels I missed something, please feel free to add a link.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 15, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions  

ah, linkage fail. the tag formatting got screwed up, but the link works.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 15, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions  

OOPS – RULES sorry, don’t do well with them, sorry

by pearlgirl on Dec 15, 2010 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

thanks redbirdie! i think it might be time for another “introduce yourself” open thread…a kumbaya for all the newer commenters.

also i’d recommend d’ohboy’s lurker’s guide to jumping into the rink.

by Natty Bumppo on Dec 15, 2010 12:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Seriously? That absolutely diiscourages people from participating. You people are lovely, but you are an ecosystem that is unwilling to see new people. Oh, you have to have this and that to particpate.

by pearlgirl on Dec 15, 2010 12:35 AM EST up reply actions  

This isn’t on the topic of the post. Let’s not jack this thread any further that has already been done.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 15, 2010 12:40 AM EST up reply actions  

welcome, pearlgirl. you’re certainly welcome here. when were you flamed, it’s not showing in your history?

by Natty Bumppo on Dec 14, 2010 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh ya, I just went and found a picture btw – took about a minute and gave them one less thing to moan about.

Be original. This means don't do things like say "I love the smell of Irony early in the morning" or post a picture of a nerd and say, "Mom's basement" in an internet forum. You will NOT have been even the 1,000,000th person to have done it.

by alisterio on Dec 14, 2010 11:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Can I actually post here without an icon without being FLAMED?

Yes. The avatar harassment is mostly in jest, although it does help folks identify people, such as the same bunch of 40 who you’ve noted always post.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 11:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Well said! But we have we who have and the Red Wings weren’t always veteran leaders with SC pedigree to call each other on the carpet when needed. How do we mold this Romper Room of talent into hard nosed, “only good day was yesterday” kind of leaders like the Red Wings can count on when the chips are down?

by Sealteam3 on Dec 14, 2010 11:46 PM EST reply actions  

FYI, using the reply button will allow you to reply to specific comments.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 14, 2010 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

First, a helpful hint. You can continue the conversation thread by hitting the “reply” button in the post that you are replying too. That way, the discussion isn’t floating in different pieces through the thread.

Second, that exact issue of “who do we have” came up in the past few days. Specifically, among the forwards, there’s really only Knuble. Sure, there’s a couple other 30+ guys, but they’re 4th liners. For the d-men, there’s Poti, who I’ve seen a few times referred to as a “quiet leader,” which says to be he’s probably not the one calling guys out.

At the same time, I’m not sure it’s as easy as throwing a veteran guy in there and expecting instant chemistry and leadership and accountability. It could happen, it could be a disaster. Who knows.

Sorry, no easy answers here, just mostly more stuff to ponder and discuss.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 14, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

The fact that the players “like” Boudreau is so incredibly irrelevant to whether or not he is fit to be the head coach. A head coach is not there to be a player’s “friend”, he is there to lead the team to wins and that is all. As a matter of fact, I think that in the two sports where HCs are so important – NHL and NFL – the truly successful coaches are never considered to be “players’ coaches”. None that I can think of, at least.

You never really hear players talking about the SC winning coaches is such lovey-dovey terms as the article linked to Laich. Personally, I think it is CBBs fatal flaw; the players love him.

If you are driving in the left hand lane and you are not passing, you are a #$@&$

by alisterio on Dec 14, 2010 11:51 PM EST reply actions  

I think a lot of players loved Joe Gibbs. I get the same lovey dovey feeling from players about coaches like Tony Dungy or Bill Walsh.

It just depends on the team. For this team, a player’s coach may not be the best because of a lack of veteran leaders, so the discipline may have to come from the top.

As stated above a couple times, I think Boudreau’s earned the full year, assuming there isn’t a major collapse.

by Joran on Dec 15, 2010 2:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I think players do need to like their coach, or at the very least have a positive relationship. What that means for each player can be, and will be different, and one of the signs of a good coach is somebody who can juggle those different personalities and make a connection with them.

A coach cannot be disliked and be effective. A player can certainly dislike his coach at certain times, but if the players are against the coach, then they’ve tuned him out and we all know what happens with that situation.

A great coach, to me, is someone who the players respect and like, who can impose discipline without ruling with an iron fist, who cares about the people in his room, in addition to the abilities to make in-game adjustments, to effectively manage shifts and special teams, to win games.

Maybe Bruce is “just” a good but beloved coach. Maybe he can be great. I dearly hope he can be great.

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Dec 15, 2010 2:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I also think players like winning, so if they’re winning, they’ll even like people as eminently unlikable as Bill Parcells or Bobby Knight.

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Dec 15, 2010 9:39 AM EST up reply actions  

…given that coach Bruce Boudreau’s proverbial leash was almost certainly shortened given last spring’s early playoff exit…

I had to stop right there. Until GMGM or Ted suddenly morph together into George Steinbrenner I don’t believe losing in the playoffs for one second shortens a coach’s job security in professional sports. HOF coaches have worse win% in the playoffs then BB has currently, and most look painful when looking at their careers

Scotty Bowman .642, 9 SC in 28 playoffs (32%)
Glen Sather .651 Though he basically either lost in round 1 or went all the way. 13 playoffs, 4 cups, 6 first round losses, 4 times making it past round 1 but not winning it all and only 1 of those attempts made it to SCF
Jack Adams, numbers are harder to find specifically, but 3 Cups, 5 first round losses, 6 times losing in round 2 or finals.
Dick Irving Sr, 4 cups in 24 playoff attempts. 12 times lost in the finals, 7 first round losses (including 3 years of this back to back after making it to the finals for 3 straight).

Point being even HoF Coaches don’t win everything. If you look at their careers there would be plenty of times we would be rioting for if BB let happen. Like what I just mentioned of 3 SCF appearances followed by 3 first round exits. Jack Adams several times made it to the Finals or Won only to have next season either not make the playoffs or exit in round 1.

Playoffs are categorized by failure. Every year there are 15 losers and 1 winner. The mentality of “winning it all or else” is great for the players. It gives them an absolute goal. Its not a good mentality for fans to take, because as much as I’d love the Caps to win every game( or just tomorrow for starters) the reality is they will lose games and will lose in the playoffs. In evey league their champs talk about their “magic run” after winning because it really is something special to do.

Perspective

Now I will actually read the rest of this darn post.

Bruce Boudreau when asked about Brooks Laich's return to the lineup, he said: "He just adds another dimension to our team. If it was puzzle, he just fits that thing. He completes us."

Brooks Laich completing everything from teams to tires and everything in between.

by breaklance on Dec 14, 2010 11:58 PM EST reply actions  

Scotty Bowman won a Cup in his 2nd year as a head coach, then 4 in a row in his 5th through 8th years.

Glenn Sather made it to the Finals in his 2nd and 6th years before winning 4 Cups in 5 years.

It’s not that BB hasn’t won the Cup every year, expectations like that are absolutely absurd. But when it comes to evaluating coaches in the playoffs the how is arguably more important than the how much. And expecting BB to win more than 1 out of 4 series with the talent he’s had isn’t ridiculous. Especially when you consider that he’s had home ice advantage in all 4 series and has only once faced a team that was seeded higher than 6th. I imagine if BB had more than one playoff series victory under his belt we are not having this conversation.

Release the Mackan!

by Killer_Carlson on Dec 15, 2010 1:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly. There’s a world of difference between someone who has a proven track record going out early and a guy who heads up a team that went out like the Caps did last year and doesn’t have any real playoff success to speak of.

by David Getz on Dec 15, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Speaking for myself, my mentality is, “don’t get upset by inferior opponents in the playoffs- and maybe win a game 7 at home too”

The mentality of "winning it all or else" is great for the players.

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Dec 15, 2010 9:40 AM EST up reply actions  

When I think about it in this sense—there’s a ton of parity in the league, and the Caps are 1 Game win away from a 50-50 split which may be the most likely outcome considering they faced a superior opponent, two inferior ones, and one about the same level—then I find it hard to fault the team for losing Game 7s. Getting to Game 7 after being up 2-0 or 3-1, or falling behind 3-1, that’s something.

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL and where we defend Mike Green, Alex Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin until the bitter end. That is to say, when someone tries to call BS on the Corsi numbers.
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays

by red army line on Dec 15, 2010 10:30 AM EST up reply actions  

And thus concludes and another exciting episode of “Stupid Craig MacTavish Stole My Thread.” Stay tuned for “The Scotty Bowman Variety Show.”

by cbl on Dec 15, 2010 12:56 AM EST reply actions  

But the Caps could be 32-0-0 right now and there’d be no assurances that the bad habits were all gone. What could this team “prove” in December that would give you confidence come April?

I’ve seen you post this a few times, JP, and I don’t agree at all with the implication that continued bad habits don’t mean much because it is December. Just because it’s impossible to prove something is true doesn’t mean you can’t prove that it is false. The Caps can’t prove they shook their bad habits until the playoffs, but they sure can prove that they didn’t shake the bad habits by repeating them over the course of the regular season. Sorta like how you don’t prove a scientific theory true, you just fail to disprove it.

The Caps can’t completely calm the nerves of playoffs past in December (although better consistency and the breaking of bad habits would go a long way), but they sure as hell can destroy any confidence that they learned their lessons. It may not be fair, but that is the bed the Caps have made by repeating the same mistakes for the past couple years.

Release the Mackan!

by Killer_Carlson on Dec 15, 2010 1:36 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

The Bottom line

Here is the bottom line.We are having this discussion because,lets face it,the team hasn’t been very good this season.Even when we were winning ,there has been very few sixty minute efforts.The Caps have become a very predictable team.Our stars are not playing well,at all.All of them are playing sub-par,not just one or two.This has to fall on the coach.
    Ovi has become very stoppable.Just look over at Sid and the Pens.There is nothing anybody can do to stop or slow down Sid.This is what kills me.I am of the belief that Ovechkin is the more intimidating and offensively skilled player.But now I feel like a fool for thinking so.
 I don’t have the answer for wether or not now is the time to change course,but if this team doesn’t recapture its mojo in the next few games.I will then be firmly aboard the Fire Budreau wagon.
  I hope he can turn things around,but i fear his style and constant tinkering with lines has ruined any chemistry building which is the only way a team that plays so predictably could pull it off.

Just rememebr this whole topic is an indictment of our coach and its not just the six games its the whole season.I think we have only had 3 or 4 real 60 minute voctories all season and that in itself is grounds for this debate.

Ice Breakers>Goal Shakers....THE CAPS !!

by RedRocka on Dec 15, 2010 1:57 AM EST reply actions  

Hasn’t been very good…relative to our expectations and talent level on the team. But in reality, they’re at least 22 teams that would kill to be in the Caps’ position.

Also, the Pens got stoned last night (they were running a ton of unsustainable, due-for-regression luck, and Sid still is). The Wings lost 5-0 when they put up 50+ shots on LAK. Every team gets stopped. Every player gets stopped. The team has been playing differently in the latter part of this streak, I gather, so that’s a positive for BB, I would think.

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL and where we defend Mike Green, Alex Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin until the bitter end. That is to say, when someone tries to call BS on the Corsi numbers.
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays

by red army line on Dec 15, 2010 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Like I said ,four or five sixty minute efforts all season.I feel Ovechkin is being put in a position to fail playing two minutes at the point on the PP.I see a ton of predictability to our team play.There are huge problems.

Of course other teams would love to have what we have.I can’t deny that I think we have the most talented team in hockey.So the real question is- Why aren’t we winning like we all feel we should be??

I think BB is failing,I love BB so I really hope he turns it around soon.But I can assure you if we lose hals the gap have on #9 Ottowa,we will see a change at the top.Injuries are a fair argument etc. but at the end of the day it up to BB to turn it around.

Ice Breakers>Goal Shakers....THE CAPS !!

by RedRocka on Dec 15, 2010 10:56 AM EST reply actions  

Whenever MikeL makes a numbered list, I hit actions, rec automatically.

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL and where we defend Mike Green, Alex Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin until the bitter end. That is to say, when someone tries to call BS on the Corsi numbers.
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays

by red army line on Dec 15, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Huge disagreement on Keenan. No way is he the first on the list. He may know his shit, but is personality is such a turn off at this point that he may never get another coaching gig. Blasphemy to put him ahead of Bowman. Absolute blasphemy.

Also disagree on Hitchcock.

Interesting call on Andy Murray, but I agree it’s more of an off-season move.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 15, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah. Keenan is a fuckwad and I want him nowhere near this team.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Dec 15, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t want Keenan either, but he has to be considered. He is able to get teams to perform at or above their abilities for a brief period (2-3 years) of time. He took a team of underperformers (the Rangers) to the Stanley Cup and got to the finals with the Flyers and Blackhawks. The guy knows the game and the tactics.

In the end though you end up with a divided locker room with half the players worshiping him and half hating his guts, and that’s not good. If you want to win now Keenan is the guy. Long term, not a good choice.

Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy

by MikeL-Pivonka on Dec 15, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Those examples are all from more than 16 years ago. Since then he had a pretty disastrous tenure in Vancouver, and failed to do anything during a few seasons in Florida. Sure those teams weren’t great, but he didn’t exactly get them performing above their abilities.

In his only coaching gig since the lockout he got an underachieving Flames team to keep underachieving. I’m not sure Keenan is even a good short term option anymore, the game has changed a lot since the last time he had any sort of coaching success.

Release the Mackan!

by Killer_Carlson on Dec 15, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

One name I haven't heard thrown around...

I am certainly not a hockey genius, which is why I often defer to the opinions of the Japer’s Rink collective. I was hoping someone could remark on why or why not Dean Evason would be a potential replacement.

Here are some reasons why I like him:

-He has considerable hockey experience at multiple levels.

-He knows the organization well, having been drafted by the Caps, played for them, and now having coached under both Hanlon and Boudreau. I would imagine he has built quite a rapport with the players, knows their strengths, weaknesses, what motivates them, etc.

-In his NHL days, he played as a defensively-minded forward. I think this is particularly interesting, since many of the replacement coaches mentioned above were brought up because of an ability to shore up the blue line side of the game.

-He has displayed good leadership and presence on camera and in press articles. I confess to not knowing him very well, but from what I have seen and read, I have been impressed.

-In baseball (I know, completely different, but bear with me), it isn’t uncommon for an assistant manager to be promoted when the manager is canned (e.g., Riggleman after Acta).

I know he doesn’t have NHL or even AHL experience as a Head Coach, but, as I mentioned before, he has it at other levels. I wouldn’t be opposed if he were being considered in a hypothetical replacement discussion.

Thoughts?

"'It is bitter -- bitter,' he answered. 'But I like it, because it is bitter, and because it is my heart.'"

by HooLovesDC on Dec 15, 2010 12:32 PM EST reply actions  

If the Caps are going to change their head coach I think it needs to be to change the message and culture. In that case promoting from within the organization isn’t the best idea, they’d be better off with a new voice. I think that’s why there hasn’t been more serious discussion about French and Woods as well.

Release the Mackan!

by Killer_Carlson on Dec 15, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Not a huge fan of it. He’s been here through all the baggage and I’m not exactly sure how much of the faults of the team are on his shoulders. It also takes a different personality/mindset to be an assistant coach and the fact that he hasn’t been a head coach in the AHL or NHL really concerns me. This isn’t the time or the team to let him get his feet wet.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Dec 15, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Evason will get a chance to be a head coach one day. He’s got the smarts and he’s certainly learning how to do it. That said, his chance will come with another team. The only way he gets the Caps job is if Gabby retires….

Washington Capitals 2009-10 = Quebec Nordiques 1994-95
--- D'ohboy

by MikeL-Pivonka on Dec 15, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I think y’all are in the right church, but the wrong pew. The Caps and Hershey are joined at the hip in terms of philosophy and the development of prospects. But Hershey wins. Even Bruce won there. Mark French has won twice. Here? Still waiting.

Why?

I’d look at the rosters. The Caps are a gifted offensive team. But they are not particularly adept at adapting other parts of the game to the needs in any given game or playoff series. Hershey was able to do this on the fly last year against Texas. Why? Again, look at the rosters. For lack of a better term, Hershey had more guys who know how to play the game — vets who around the AHL and eventually found themselves put together with skill guys. Guys like Boyd Kane, Bryan Helmer, or Greg Amadio. None of those guys was on anyone’s short list for call-ups. They were journeymen who had been around the barn, if not the league, a few times. But they ensured that there was no soft underbelly to those teams. They were gritty guys who knew how to play the game and play their role

Who are those guys for the Caps? The guys who can be calm in the face of adversity, because they’ve seen it in other places? The anonymous guys who somehow manage to get their names engraved on a cup, even if you’ve never heard of them if you follow another team?

The Caps have skilled to burn — Ovechkin, Semin, Green, Backstrom. And they have “skill” guys coming through — Perreault, Johansson, Carlson. But where are the greybeards who can walk through a room and either calm things down or get in guys’ faces? The greybeards on this team are Tom Poti and Mike Knuble — talented players in each their own right. But neither seems to be the sort to raise hell in a locker room (I suspect they have the calming things down part down).

There is a soft underbelly on this team, and I think it was Elliotte Friedman who had it nailed when he said that this team is too “fragile.” Fragile, brittle, whatever. They just don’t handle adversity well. They talk about it well, but they don’t handle it well. And I wonder if that isn’t a product of the way this roster is constructed.

If you've read this far...seek help.

by ThePeerless on Dec 15, 2010 3:18 PM EST reply actions   3 recs

Agreed, and we definitely were close to expanding the focus of the Roundtable to include the architect of the team, but decided to save that for another day.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Dec 16, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

From Katie Carrera’s article on the losing streak —

Opponents "can look at individuals and say, ‘This is his tendency or that tendency and we can stop him,’ " Boudreau said Tuesday. But he said the real problem facing his team is one of bad luck. “Right now we are snakebit,” he said, citing the three goalposts hit by the Capitals on one shift during the Rangers game Sunday night.

Am I the only one who is confused by Boudreau’s quote here that the team is snakebit but some of his postgame comments that some people are feeling sorry for themselves?

Last night, I’d agree that several bounces did not go the Caps way. I was glad to see last night that the team played all 60 minutes. My take is that if the team continues to play team hockey, eventually some of the bounces would go the Caps way. But I think they’re more likely to get there if the message is “the bounces didn’t go our way last night, but we know what we need to do, and we intend to do it.” That’s a little different from letting the bad luck make them feel sorry for themselves. I don’t know what the balance needs to be between the coach and the players in arriving there….

Don’t make fun of my obsession over ketchup dispensers ever again! ;) Ted Leonsis

by miseenjeu on Dec 16, 2010 5:37 AM EST reply actions  

JoeB has to be tired of saying “long slapper”.

"And as it’s my personal opinion, I’d appreciate not being told it’s stupid, thanks." - BeccaH

by hotdog88gt on Dec 18, 2010 7:41 PM EST reply actions  

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