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Is Bruce Boudreau Hiding Mike Green?

Earlier this week The Globe and Mail's Eric Duhatschek did something that may be a first for a Canadian journalist: he wrote an article about Mike Green which praised the two-time Norris Trophy finalist's defense.

Unsurprisingly, both jokes and legtimate counterpoints were made in response (particularly to the assertion that "Bruce Boudreau is using Green and Jeff Schultz as his shutdown defensive pair"), the latter of which tend to focus primarly on the premise that Green is playing "easy" minutes, sheltered by his coach from facing high-quality competition.

If one can get past the absurdity of the notion that a player who has averaged nearly 28 minutes per night over the seven games for which he has been healthy can be "hidden," there are some valid underlying points. Green's five-on-five QualComp (which essentially measures the quality of the players against whom an individual has played) is lowest among all Caps blueliners and ranks near the bottom among big-minute rearguards League-wide. And he does start a lot of his shifts in the offensive zone (as you would expect from someone with his offensive prowess on a team where that skill-set at that position is decidedly lacking).

But is Mike Green really being protected?

Let's begin with the premise that a coach can "hide" a player (or play him in a match up of his choosing) at home by matching lines, but can't do so on the road nearly as easily, due to the fact that visiting squads have to put their lines out first at every whistle. Bruce Boudreau - who notoriously doesn't match lines, even at home - is going to play his guys when he wants to on the road (and the other team is going to react if they so choose), but could try to get away from or into certain match ups if he wanted to at home. So we're not going to look at road games here. Also, this issue is primarily concerned with five-on-five hockey, as the concept of "hiding" a guy is largely inapplicable to special teams (though it should be noted that Green is getting big penalty kill minutes, which one wouldn't expect from someone whose defensive shortcomings are being buried). Finally, when examining the opponents against whom Green is skating, we're only concerned with the forwards (though the QualComp metric includes blueliners), since coaches don't ordinarily send out defensemen to shut down opposing defensemen. With that in mind, here's a game-by-game look (remember, home games only) at how Bruce Boudreau has used Mike Green:

Star-divide

Game 2, NJD - Green played the most against Zach Parise, Travis Zajac and Ilya Kovalchuk

Game 3, OTT - Green played the most against Jason Spezza, Milan Michalek and Daniel Alfredsson

Game 4, NYI - Green played the most against Blake Comeau, Matt Moulson and Trent Hunter (with John Tavares out of the Isles' lineup)

Game 6, BOS - Green did not play

Game 8, ATL - Green did not play at even strength

Game 9, TOR - Green played the most against Phil Kessel, Kris Versteeg and Mikhail Grabovski

So what do we see? First and foremost, Green is playing more of his minutes against opponents' top forwards than against anyone else. Granted, he may not be sent out to shut opposing top lines down (in some of those games he was the top Cap against these trios, in others he was not, lending credence to the suggestion that Boudreau is in fact not using him as a "shutdown" defender), but he's certainly not being protected from playing against opposition's best offensive threats.

You'll also notice that this (tiny) sample is four games against teams that rank (as of this writing) 30th, 21st, 20th and 26th in the League in goals per game, respectively, and 24th, 20th, 30th and 12th in goals against. Teams with those rankings aren't likely going to have too many players who are going to boost opponents' QualComp (missing those two Boston games and the Nashville tilt certainly hurt Green here). And, of course, the sample size itself at this point of the season also contributes to some silly results... unless you think Bruce Boudreau has been using Brian Fahey as his shutdown guy.

Green's QualComp, generally, also takes a hit from the fact that when he's on the ice, it's usually with one of the Caps' top two lines, which often means that opposing coaches put out their checkers... which tends to mean inherently lower QualComp, precisely because those checkers tend to face an abundance of high-scoring competition and not score much at all. (On the flip side of that coin, see Fahey, against whom opposing coaches have poured their skill guys over the boards in order to try to maximize an advantage.)

The bottom line here is that you can chalk up Green's low QualComp mostly to the teams the Caps have faced, the number of games he's played so far, and the players opposing coaches put on the ice to stop the Caps' Young Guns, but saying that he's being intentionally "hidden" from top competition? That's a much harder sell.

And the next time someone tells you that Mike Green plays easy minutes, tell him he's right - Mike Green does play easy minutes. And hard minutes. And everything in between. As the commercial says, he's been on the ice the whole time.

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Comments

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52 has looked pretty sharp this year for the majority of the time, and hasn’t been a liability. The tough part is that if you don’t like a player you can always find something to complain about, be it opposing fans, media, or caps fans themselves. Maybe the new/old sticks have something to do with it?

Refs allow play to continue....

by Truculence on Nov 5, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, give the dude some credit, he’s lost weight.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Nov 5, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Wow. That’s awesome.

I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck

by twistedlogic on Nov 5, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

You simply can’t play 28 minutes a night and be ‘hidden’ – it’s as simple as that. Bookmarking this one in case the argument (err WHEN the argument) comes up.

by TFG on Nov 5, 2010 1:11 PM EDT reply actions  

And, of course, the sample size itself at this point of the season also contributes to some silly results

In the Caps-Leafs preview at PPP, the quote in the article about Green being a shutdown blueliner came up. Knee high had this great post:

The Caps haven’t played a load of tough teams yet. ATL twice, the Devils, MIN, CAR, CGY, BOS is about the only good squad out of the lot. Since QComp is unadjusted (and generally not as good as Corsi-computed measures) to the team competition and the sample size is tiny, I’m not sure why you’re putting too much stock in that result.

If you sort by Corsi Rel Comp, he’s like 5 names under a guy who plays for Detroit. A guy with a Swedish last name. A guy with six Norris trophies and three second-place finishes. He’s ahead of Andrei Markov (speaking of small samples) and he’s ahead of Chris Pronger by a mile. Those measurements don’t mean anything yet.

I really hope the Norris voters stop thinking that if you’re not being put on the ice to shut down the other top line, you’re being hidden. There’s a whole range of intermediate situations which seem to get overlooked.

My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL.

by red army line on Nov 5, 2010 1:13 PM EDT reply actions  

I think two facts explain everything: 1) he missed (at ES) the games against the best teams in the analysis (Boston and Atlanta) and 2) other teams tend to put their checkers out against him.

Good enough for me.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Nov 5, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

He also missed Nashville – another supersolid team. (And, to clarify, he missed Boston twice and Atlanta, essentially once out of the two times.)

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 5, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pretty much.

You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!

by EmilyB on Nov 5, 2010 1:13 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

It was easy to imply that the Canadian Media disliked Ovechkin and always painted him in an unflattering light, now it seems that they’re giving Green the same treatment.
Guilt by association perhaps?

by j3rockstar on Nov 5, 2010 1:17 PM EDT reply actions  

nothing new, although not limited to just the traditional Canadian hockey media.I think there’s enough material out there to write a dissertation on why Mike Green’s fauxhawk is a clear indication that he’s not sufficiently committed to playing defense. And of course, every time he scores, some guy up in Philly starts twitching and screaming “He’s the worst defenseman EVER!!!!!!!!”

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Nov 5, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I happened to peruse the ESPN hockey night chat last night. Said Philly writer is still on the campaign.

"It's always good to have vikings."

by gfcaps fan on Nov 5, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

did you commit some horrible sin and your punishment was to peruse the ESPN hockey chat? You’re a braver woman than I!

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Nov 5, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eh, it took about five minutes while I was watching the game on CSN, and you never know when LeBrun or even Burnside might say something interesting. I had no idea the Philly press would be participating. They should be paying attention in the press box.

"It's always good to have vikings."

by gfcaps fan on Nov 5, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps this is why Laich got rid of his fauxhawk…..to gain respect! Now he’s up for SI’s Sportsman of The Year!
Pre fauxhawk = no nomination.
Fauxhawk free = nomination.
Excellent theory Red!!!

by j3rockstar on Nov 5, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess that should be..
Fauxhawk = no nomination.

by j3rockstar on Nov 5, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Know faux, no No(mination);
No faux, know No(mination).

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Nov 5, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly!!!
Thank you!

by j3rockstar on Nov 5, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Game 2, NJD – Green played the most against Zach Parise, Travis Zajac and Ilya Kovalchuk

Game 3, OTT – Green played the most against Jason Spezza, Milan Michalek and Daniel Alfredsson

Game 4, NYI – Green played the most against Blake Comeau, Matt Moulson and Trent Hunter (with John Tavares out of the Isles’ lineup)

Game 6, BOS – Green did not play

Game 8, ATL – Green did not play at even strength

Game 9, TOR – Green played the most against Phil Kessel, Kris Versteeg and Mikhail Grabovski

What about games 1, 5, and 7? Is JP hiding Mike Green?

You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!

by EmilyB on Nov 5, 2010 1:18 PM EDT reply actions  

So we’re not going to look at road games here.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 5, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uh, yeah. Post, read, think.

You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!

by EmilyB on Nov 5, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

that’s the spirit!

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Nov 5, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

And since half the games he’s played have been on the road the opposing coaches have as much say as BB does in his competition scores. I hate those stats in general, but right now they are utterly meaningless. Todd Richards put Koivu out every chance he could get against Fahey. He was purposely avoiding Green. Fahey had the tougher competition in that game, but what is really the logical conclusion?

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Nov 5, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Green should never win the Norris or be on the Canadian Olympic Team.

/PPP’d

Patron saint of quality footwear.

by fat_daddyo on Nov 5, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Green is an overrated winger!

Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground

by RedBirdie on Nov 5, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right (and exactly the point I made in the post re: Fahey).

QualComp has every bit as much to do with how other coaches play a player as how his coach does.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 5, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was just fleshing it out with one game that was a stark example. I remember clearly watching Koivu feast on Fahey that entire evening. I just wonder why people, even presumably smart people like PPP, continue to ignore the obvious problems with QComp scores. Is it because people want so desperately to have a quantifiable number that allows them to sound authoritative in conversation?

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Nov 5, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can’t speak for others, but I think it’s like any other metric – a tool to be used in evaluation which is only of real value if you are aware of its limitations.

For example, John Erskine had a great +/-ON last year (at 5v5). His teammates had a lot to do with that. So did the fact that he had a very low QualComp. Was Erskine’s QualComp low because opponents were keeping their scorers away from him? I doubt. Was it because he was, in fact, protected? Much more likely. And obviously a 50-game sample means a lot more than a 7-gamer.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 5, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree, I’ve argued the “full context” side of it enough that everyone here knows that. I was just disappointed with how Chemmy was using the QComp stats as some sort of definitive marker without acknowledging all this stuff.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Nov 5, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, and happy birthday, brother.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 5, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Thank you sir.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Nov 5, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is some of the best work on this site in some time. Kudos.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Nov 5, 2010 1:20 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Agreed. I really like this one.

Eat, drink, and be merry! And then drink some more.

by SmallZ827 on Nov 5, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Minor nitpick:

With that in mind, here’s a game-by-game look (remember, road games only) at how Bruce Boudreau has used Mike Green:

You mean home games only, right?

Great analysis, loved the post.

by Joran on Nov 5, 2010 1:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Shit. Yes – it wasn’t in the original and I added it when Emily missed it (see comments above). Le sigh.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 5, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Chemmy, rebuttal?

"DON'T SAY THAT! Please! That is the worst, most stupid thing anyone could say! Cause it quite clearly isn't "only a game." I mean if it was do you honestly think I'd care this much?"

by Bald Pollack on Nov 5, 2010 1:51 PM EDT reply actions  

I think Chemmy is right to question the statement regarding Bruce using MG52 as a shutdown D (and I acknowledge as much in the post).

But I think Bruce also uses his defensemen differently than some other coaches might, likely do to the respective abilities of the guys he has to work with. Whereas one coach might try to put his “top pair” on the ice for every shift the opponent’s top line skates, that’s not Bruce (though maybe it could it be if he had a Mitchell or Pronger or whomever). If you want to know who Bruce’s shutdown guys are, check out who’s out there at the end of the game with a 1- or 2-goal lead.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 5, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you want to know who Bruce’s shutdown guys are, check out who’s out there at the end of the game with a 1- or 2-goal lead.

This reasoning is why I’m not really miffed about the style points of the games so far (because Calznerson have been seeing those situations while Green and Poti have been tweaked), but that’s another discussion.

"DON'T SAY THAT! Please! That is the worst, most stupid thing anyone could say! Cause it quite clearly isn't "only a game." I mean if it was do you honestly think I'd care this much?"

by Bald Pollack on Nov 5, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Further to this point, I think the marginal utility of using Mike Green primarily to shut down an opposing forward (versus using Carlson, Alzner, Erskine, Schultz or Poti) is far less than the marginal utility of using Mike Green primarily to generate offense (versus using those guys), hence all the O-zone starts. So the coach who wants to maximize what he gets out of his lineup is going to play Mike Green when he wants to, not in reaction to the other coach’s line changes.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 5, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right. Coaching effects are huge and are completely hidden in these stats.

Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman

by Rob Parker on Nov 5, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve noted that BB likes to get Green out there with the top lines as much as possible. I wish I had something more to back this up, but Dobberhockey won’t tell me what forwards he plays with at even strength.

And I hear you talk the talk, but I don't see you walk the walk and I still don't believe a thing you say.

by D'ohboy on Nov 5, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

:: shakes fist at Dobberhockey ::

You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!

by EmilyB on Nov 5, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

He does, I was looking at it last night – easiest (or “easiest”) way to do that is to look at the shift charts at Time On Ice for a certain game. For example, here‘s the shift chart for the Toronto game. If you move the red vertical line around to line it up you can see where Mike Green’s time matches up with 8-19-28.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Nov 5, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

There’s a guy named Mike at U New Brunswick who tracks those kinds of things for the Canadiens:

http://www.cs.unb.ca/~mwf/habs/2010-11/preseason/index.html

He lists his email if you want to ask him questions.

You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!

by EmilyB on Nov 5, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Having said that, sounds like they’re trying to get away from it a bit – from the Duhatschek piece:

"Our job is to shut down top lines now and we take pride in that," Green says. And how, you may ask, is that different than before? Green averaged 25 1/2 minutes of ice time a game last season so he would have had to go out against top lines then, too.

"At times, yes," answered Green, "but I think we were worried more about who I was on the ice with on our team and creating chances. Now, it’s about stepping up and playing a complete game. So my role has had to change a little this year and that’s fine."

Obviously with Green playing 25-28 minutes a night and Ovie playing 23-25 minutes a night, and both playing the entire power play, they’ll be out together quite a bit regardless. But I thought that was interesting for Green to mention, that before his role was mostly about creating offense and now it’s more well-rounded.

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Nov 5, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think he meant for the season. You can easily see which D Green’s been paired with the most, but not which forwards.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 5, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I figured, but I thought I’d at least provide a way someone could look game by game. If it happens in 3 or 4 games in a row you’ve probably got yourself enough evidence to back that up.

…or you could just read Green’s quote I just posted where he says BB has been doing exactly that :D

If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.

by Becca H on Nov 5, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like this. I, too, fail to see how someone who plays half the game can be effectively hidden without an inordinate amount of work going into it, and HCBB, as you said, doesn’t seem to be inclined to do that sort of thing anyway.

This might speak to the increasing trend highlighted at Hockey Prospectus that teams are matching power versus power rather than putting grinders out against the other team’s scorers.

by JustinM on Nov 5, 2010 1:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks. I’ve definitely thought about the power vs. power and whether teams try to send out their scorers or checkers against the Caps. An analysis for another day, I think…

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 5, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Green is playing against lower quality of competition on the road, I’d say that speaks favorably about Mike Green’s ability and reputation. It suggests that other teams, who have the last change, are keeping their best players away from him.

You had me at no problem.

by Ninjak on Nov 5, 2010 2:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, they’re not necessarily keeping their best players away from him, but their players most likely to have a good rating that will bump up his QualComp, meaning that the guys they are sending out against him are the guys with low ratings. And how do they get low ratings? Lots of D-zone starts and lots of time against opposing scoring lines (i.e. your Steckels of the world). These guys may be the best defensive players opposing teams have, but those abilities don’t necessarily translate well in these specific metrics.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 5, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I look at this as a massive “do loop”. You’re so good that they won’t put their best players out against you, so therefore your stats are bad because you’re not playing against the “best” opposition.

Can I just say this gives me a headache?

"It's always good to have vikings."

by gfcaps fan on Nov 5, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, I saw the Twitter fight you had with @FelixPotvin yesterday on the subject, and it got me thinking: Isn’t there also a little bit of circular cause and effect happening? In other words:

Player A is an exactly average forward, but goes up against Stud Defenseman for 82 games.

Player A doesn’t score, not even once, so his “Quality of Competition” rating is the worst in the league.

By extension, the quality of Stud Defenseman’s opponents looks like the softest in the league. And then Stud’s “being hidden” by his coach.

I understand their ratings come from all their games, but when we’re 10 or 12 games into the season, one bad game against a good defensive defenseman (if that’s what Green, in fact, is) reduces their rating by a big jump. In other words, he’s been penalized by @FelixPotvin for doing his job: keeping opponents off the score sheet.

Does that make sense?

We're Hüsker Dü and we're on MTV. Who are you, and what are you on?

by bilspacecadet on Nov 5, 2010 2:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, the fact that guys aren’t going up against just one guy all the time removes a lot of the circularity from it, but it does, to a very minor degree, “punish” players for doing their job similar to how the BCS does with respect to strength of schedule (beat a team and a portion of your strength of schedule computation goes down because that opponent’s record is worse; note: I could be wrong about that).

One note, though:

Player A doesn’t score, not even once, so his "Quality of Competition" rating is the worst in the league.

If Player A doesn’t score, his QualComp is uneffected – it’s Stud Defenseman’s QualComp that takes a hit (which is what you were saying).

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 5, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, I meant Player A’s contribution to the QualComp rating—you understood.

And than you for the BCS reference—I think it’s very analogous: A team that wins every game is, on average, going to have a lower strength of schedule rating than a team that loses every game.

We're Hüsker Dü and we're on MTV. Who are you, and what are you on?

by bilspacecadet on Nov 5, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice work.

Thoughtful bit of analysis. I am fascinated by the new metrics, but I think they are relied upon a bit too much yet in some corners of the blogosphere. Nice work.

jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog

"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator) CERTIFIED GRABBO LOVER

by jrwendelman on Nov 5, 2010 6:21 PM EDT reply actions  

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