Friday Caps Clips: Tamed by the Wild
by J.P. on Oct 29, 2010 6:45 AM EDT
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PrintYour savory breakfast links:
- Recaps and other assorted musings on last night's loss from us, Vogs, Carrera (blog, gamer), Caps365 video (Boudreau, players), Beninati, Frankovic, Peerless, OFB, RMNB, Puckhead's Thoughts, LIR, and Russo's Rants.
- Japers' Rink Radio hits the Interwebz tomorrow morning with special guest Vicki Hall of the Calgary Herald to preview tomorrow night's tilt with the Flames.
- A look at how to build a winner. Spoiler alert: having a decent second-line center is a little bit important. [Box Seats]
- The world found out yesterday what the Caps' January 1 dance partners will be wearing to the ball. [Peerless, Puck Daddy, Bangin Panger]
- Caps OT with Matt Hendricks. [CSN Washington (video)]
- Three-for-three for games seven through nine. [RtR]
- Finally, happy 32nd birthday to Chris Corrinet, happy 66th to Stan Gilbertson, and a very happy 51st to Hall of Famer Mike Gartner.
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From Russo's column...
The Wild held the offensive juggernaut to four shots through one, 11 through two and 22 in the game. Sadly, Niklas Backstrom, who deserved the goose egg, had his shutout big spoiled with 1:36 left by Ovi! As Bruce Boudreau said this morning, Ovechkin can “do nothing for 40 minutes, and then, ‘Boom.’”
Ovechkin…“Boom,” huh? Maybe that explains it.
If you've read this far...seek help.
Related?
When spotting attractive women on the street in Russia, he identifies them by hollering “BOOM.”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Ovechkin can "do nothing for 40 minutes, and then, ‘Boom.’"
That’s what she said?
I wish the forwards could be fit with shock collars which go off everytime they make a drop pass just inside the offensive blue line. Particularly against a team like the Wild. Maddening….
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Oct 29, 2010 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Today also happens to be Eric Staal’s 26th birthday…
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
Rumor has it that he was going to get into a better position to blow the candles out, but Michal Neuvirth still beat him to it.
"DON'T SAY THAT! Please! That is the worst, most stupid thing anyone could say! Cause it quite clearly isn't "only a game." I mean if it was do you honestly think I'd care this much?"
by Bald Pollack on Oct 29, 2010 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
He’s just gotta be faster.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Oct 29, 2010 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Eric Staal blows? F&B was right all along!
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 29, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Zing!
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
by Steck It Out on Oct 29, 2010 9:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
We can keep these jokes coming until the earth ends as far as I’m concerned.
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
To tie this together as the ultimate rink continuity joke, we need a photoshop in the theme of “Great Taste! Less Filling!” with the Red Rocker chicks scantily-clad, jiggling, and debating “Great Save! Less Choking!”, in stop motion with MSPaint arrows.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 29, 2010 10:37 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And a small Nylander Blingee in the corner wearing a gold-chain neck brace.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
While skating in circles?
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 29, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
My Question is...
If they know that they come out flat EVERY GAME, wouldn’t they try to fight it? It seems tt me that this team is so devastated by last year, that they just don’t really care. I thought they would be angry, not apathetic. Sad.
You can’t afford to Staal in that situation.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Oct 29, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Look at that fan confidence poll on the main page.
I think we hold judgment on this game in abeyance, see how they do in CAL. If they sleepwalk through another 3 periods, then we can dance up and down. But this one had a lot going against it from the get go.
They got some chances. AO scored. There’s a decent chance that’s the chip in the dam that opens the floodgates, you know? Maybe?
Patron saint of quality footwear.
From Russo's column
Big team effort tonight by the Wild
Washington was out of sync early. That was obvious when they were whistled for offsides about 122 times in the first period. But the Wild smothered them, playing what Brent Burns called a smart, cautious game — one necessary when you’re matching up against the Ovechkins, Semins, Backstroms, Greens of the world.
you can overcome speed issues if you work as a team and are all on the same page, using speed to go to the puck together and supporting each other. Richards said that’s exactly what the Wild did tonight
Richards said it was easy to coach this group tonight because everybody was going, but now he wants to see the same effort and precision Saturday against the defending Stanley Cup champion Blackhawks
Basically, the Caps got the Wild’s A+ effort tonight. There’s no way any team can sustain that level for 82 games, but when a “special” occasion arises, you can give it. The Caps obviously gave their C-level effort, and with the travel, back end of a back to back, and after a conference game, I can understand it. I don’t love it, but I get why it happens.
The Caps are going to get more of it this year. They have to learn how to give their own back on a more consistent basis.
The other thing I note is that the Wild tried the sleeper hold technique. The Caps have been vulnerable to it in the past. If they can’t get up and down, and the game is boring, they get out of sorts. It worked tonight.
Patron saint of quality footwear.
I really don’t buy the travel angle as a reason here. I could see it if it was the middle of January, when 40 or so games have settled in, and it’s just another road trip across God knows what time zones. But this is the first road trip of consequence of the season. We’re not ten games in. The novelty of the new season and the first road trip should not have worn the guys out to the extent it looked last night.
If you've read this far...seek help.
Agreed and that was only the second game in five days. And traveling from Carolina to Minnesota isn’t exactly Boston to Vancouver. The back to back excuse is just that, an excuse. If anything, the game against Calgary will be tougher because that’s the third in four nights and that always seems to take a bigger toll on player’s legs than back-to-backs.
I can see your point. And I agree to an extent. Which is why I’m saying we don’t just forget about this one, but wait to see if they rebound against CAL.
Patron saint of quality footwear.
There also is a stigma for a place you can't win
Chalk it up to the ghost Of old Don Beaupre from the Stars days, I guess.
The Caps have too many places that fit that description, including Shark Tank in San Jose. (Plus, I can’t remember the last time they ever beat the Kings — anywhere,)
Rocking the Red since 1975
My first Caps game was against Gretzky
It was pretty awesome We won 4-3. Little did I know then that that was not even close to the norm! I live in LA now and went to the game last year. How embarrassing! They just don’t show up. I was even called a bandwagoner! Caps Bandwagon, I love it!!!There were a ton of Caps there. Staples is a great place for a game. True LA fans. I don’t see why we don’t play them every year, they were in the same division! Oh well I can go to crappy Anaheim!
To use a mixed metaphor, when the reigning President Cup winer comes into town, it’s going to be the home team’s Superbowl. And until the Caps figure out that they’re going to be getting the other team’s A+ game, they’re going to struggle which goes back to the whole issue of learning to play with urgency each and every time they hit the ice. I’m not worried yet, but I am concerned that this team really hasn’t learned much from that Montreal series.
More than injuries, more than abduction by aliens of Alex Ovechkin and Nicklas Backstrom, I fear that this team lacks a “maturity” gene. I don’t think that is necessarily something one can lay at the feet of Bruce Boudreau (although he might be too much of a “players’ coach” to every see that gene expressed). I just don’t see — on a consistent basis — the effort or even the body language that suggests a mature, “taking care of business” approach. I see too often a group that is hellbent on putting on a “show,” and retreating into a shell of indifference or frustration when the opponent doesn’t accommodate them. More than anything, that will kill them in the spring, as it seemed to do LAST spring.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Oct 29, 2010 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think the problem is personnel and not necessarily coaching. The centers for the top three lines are 22-22-and 26 years old (and that’s with the 20-year old out injured). With Poti out, the top 4 D are 25-24-22 and 20 years old. If they seem immature, it’s because they are.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 29, 2010 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Without checking, my guess is you’d be hard pressed to find a Stanley Cup champ or even a finalist with that kind of youth at such key positions.
Well, the Pens won it with a center trio of 22, 21, and 20, and a goaltender who was 24. They had older defensemen, though.
Yeah, I do wonder about their collective composure level. Part of that I would at least lay part of at the feet of Boudreau in terms of how the offense attacks structurally and their overall hockey IQ but from a personnel perspective they still seem a little one-dimensional up front. (That’s more apparent when the PP is a work in progress…) There seems to be a lot of willing shooters but not enough players that either a.) stir the drink or b.) are excellent physical forecheckers. It makes them somewhat predictable, though when they’re fully engaged they’re still a tough team to contain.
the Wild played, well, Wild hockey. smothering defense. I’ll admit, I gave in to boredom, sleep deprivation, and general sickness with about 13 minutes left in the 3rd.
I support the Wild, every season I hope they do well. I got swept up in the “OMG! Pro hockey is BACK in Minnesota!” madness and remained a supporter through those boring Lemaire years. But they’re not a fun team to watch. Trying to catch glimpses of Theo on the bench was the highlight last night.
Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground
Through the first 10 games, here are the goals against:
4-2-2-1-2-3-4-3-0-2. That’s 23 goals.
Neuvirth has obviously been the story of the season for the Caps, but this wouldn’t be possible without the rest of the team playing some decent defense most of the time (and that with a defensive corps that is currently held together with shoelaces and gum). To compare, last year the Caps gave up 31 goals in the first 10 game — that’s almost a full goal more per game.
If you’re a believer in the “the offense will come” theory, then this goaltending and defensive stinginess under adverse conditions is fairly promising. And they’ve needed to be this stingy, because the Caps are scoring a full goal per game less than at this point last year. After 10 last year, they had 37 goals. This year they have 27. Three times this year they’ve scored only one goal — they never scored less than two during the first 10 last year. You can’t expect to win if you only score one goal in a night…
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 29, 2010 8:52 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I’ve always been of the mind that defense is more will than skill. Offense is one thing, you have the hands to be a goal scorer, or you don’t. You have the vision to be a playmaker, or you don’t. But anyone can play passable defense. Schemes help with that — if you do your job, pay attention to assignments, a scheme will help you. But sometimes it is just digging a little harder in the corner, staying a little stronger on your skates in front, putting abody on a guy or angling him off. You have to want to do that, and if you do, you can play defense. Pavel Datsyuk isn’t the biggest, brawniest guy on the ice outside of a pee-wee game, but he’s won Selke’s with both talent and desire.
I see more of that from the Caps this year, but it is a work in progress. Both goals scored by the Wild last night were direct by-products of things the Caps didn’t do (Carlson lifting Kobasew’s stick on the first goal) or did wrong (all four Caps on defense with their backs to the play, looking at Neuvirth, as the puck came out to the high slot to Koivu for the game-winner).
Baby steps.
If you've read this far...seek help.
My apologies for stealing your “tens” thunder… < grin >
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 29, 2010 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions
The GA angle is the happiest development of the season so far, I will agree.
I want to wait another 30 games before I buy into it. The team SV% is .921, which could simply be flukishly high at this point.
Patron saint of quality footwear.
The other reason to hold judgement is the rookie phenom angle. In baseball, when a rookie pitcher comes in and blows people away, they always say “Let’s see how he does the second time through the league”. The thinking being scouts will then have time to figure out his weaknesses and tendencies and how to exploit them. The same applies to goalies. There’s really little video on Neuvirth so far. That will change by the time we hit 20 games. If he’s still playing at this level by game 30, then I’ll feel pretty confident about the Caps goaltending situation.
by b.orr4 on Oct 29, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Some more perspective:
Goal differential – GF – GA – Team
9 – 20 – 11- BOS
5 – 30 – 25 – PIT
4 – 25 – 21 – MON
4 – 27 – 23 – WAS
2 – 23 – 21 – TOR
2 – 32 – 30 – TBL
1 – 21 – 20 – FLA
1 – 25 – 24 – PHI
1 – 29 – 28 – NYI
0 – 26 – 26 – NYR
-3 – 27 – 30 – BUF
-3 – 21 – 34 – CAR
-4 – 29 – 33 – ATL
-5 – 26 – 31 – OTT
-18 – 17 – 35 – NJD (yes, negative 18)
No matter how they’re getting there, the Caps are in pretty good shape. Of the teams at the top, Boston is playing out of their mind, and it’s hard to imagine Toronto sustaining this pace. Meanwhile, the Caps are tied for #3 on this list, and we all think they could get better.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 29, 2010 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
NJDs? Um, ouch.
Also, it makes our 7-2 win look a tad bit less impressive :(
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 29, 2010 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Rec’d for the optimism espoused in the first half of your comment.
"Hockey is my life, wine is my passion." -- Igor Larionov
by Scott in Shaw on Oct 29, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Greg Zanon
To expand on a pont last night, if MIN drops out of contention, I wouldn’t mind getting D-Man Greg Zanon off them. He reminds me of ex-Cap Bob Rouse. Steady, smart defense-first D-man who can be physical when needed. His salary is reasonable $1.93 for this year and next. 31 years old and could mentor Alzner or Carlson. Could be anywhere from a 4D to 6D.
I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.
Stan Gilbertson
After he was traded by the Caps to the Pens he was in a car accident and lost a portion of one of his legs. I remember that very clearly, because as a kid you remember those sorts of tragic events. He was only 32 when that happened. Very sad story.
I found his recollection here:
“I was driving a teammates jeep. Coming around a sharp curve, I came on a car coming at me in my lane. Swerving to the right, I ran off the road, rolled over, and wound up upside down, half over a narrow railroad bridge, hanging half out of the car, head down. It was later measured at 13 feet to the ground and if the car had toppled down on top of me I would have been crushed. I freed myself and fell to the ground, but I knew I was badly hurt. My leg hurt bad and I was a bloody mess. But I don’t think they knew knew how bad I was hurt. After they got to me,they took me to this little hospital. When I asked to be transferred to a bigger hospital in Pittsburgh,i t took 45 minutes to take me there before they even put me on an operating table. They found the nerves in the leg were ruined and they had to amputate. As an anesthetic they chilled my body. It’s called hypothermia. But my body heated up to 104 degrees during surgery and I darn near died. They told me that two out of three in that situation do. At first they took off my leg below the knee, but the stump didn’t heal right and they had to take off more at the knee. That was bad because an artificial leg works better with the use of the knee. But I was lucky to have any left leg at all.”
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
by STLSpidey on Oct 29, 2010 9:55 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Good stuff Spidey. Always enjoy the history lessons on the Caps players from the past. Here’s a card of Stan from his playing days with the Caps:
I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.
by Rather Bengt on Oct 29, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s not him. That’s a card fuck-up.
Gilbertson did wear #15, but that’s Denis Dupere, who also wore #15.
In fact, they both wore #15 in 1974-1975.
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
Not surprising. The URL: http://onestophockeycards.com/Error_75-76_OPC_-_Gilbertson_B.jpg
"Semin had two goals this year, Perreault comes in and he gets three."
I just noticed that lol….Thanks for the pick up.
Here is Stan a couple years earlier with the Seals. Love the bad-ass beard
I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.
by Rather Bengt on Oct 29, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
The first one wasn’t too bad, but I have to boo you for the lack of subject line on this one.
Booo!
"Semin had two goals this year, Perreault comes in and he gets three."
Oops my mistake
I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.
by Rather Bengt on Oct 29, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
One of my first Caps memories is of Stan Gilbertson scoring 4 goals for the Caps in the final game of that dreadful 74-75 season to beat the Pens. Got them over the 20 point mark!
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Oct 29, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I wonder how GMGM would view El-Alaily's analysis.
Seems that unfortunately for the Caps, a majority of the team’s talent is on the wings.
Also, Mike Green is clearly an “elite D”, but El-Alaily’s analysis would have told us more if he differentiated between offensive, defensive, and ‘balanced’ defensemen.
Green is far from a liability on defense, but nobody’s going to confuse him with a shut-down D man any time soon.
All in all, it seems obvious this team will be limited by the lack of 2C. I’d love to know what GMGM’s plan is, if anything.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
His analysis would be better were it factually correct. To wit: Hasek was not the Wings’ goalie in 2008.
It’s an interesting notion, and one that we’ve discussed to death over here. I think reasonable people can disagree about the relative merits of strong defensemen vs. centers vs. goalies. Personally, I think the current trend toward the “goalie of the month” winning the Stanley Cup might be a bit of an aberration, but then, I grew up during an era when Roy, Brodeur and Hasek dominated the league. It’s also entirely possible that the Dead Puck era of elite goalie dominance was equally an aberration.
What is clear, however, is that elite wingers are clearly the least important piece to winning the Stanley Cup. The Caps have two elite wingers and the team is built around one of them. NHL history tells us that this doesn’t bode well. Bure, Iginla, Jagr (sans Mario), Shanahan (pre-Detroit), Hull (pre-Dallas): they were all phenomenal players but none of them could carry a team to a Cup. In the case of both Shanny and Hull, they had to become secondary players on teams with great centers and defensemen to finally win the Cup.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
elite wingers are clearly the least important piece to winning the Stanley Cup
This is that much more depressing when you see it in writing. But I agree, and I don’t think this team is going anywhere until they full acknowledge this fact.
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 29, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
and on that note, I don’t think having a lot of talent necessarily devoted to the wings precludes a team from winning the cup. You just can’t hope that it will mask a lack of center depth.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
It wouldn’t be an issue were it not for the salary cap. In a cap era, however, every dollar spent on Ovechkin and Semin is a dollar not spent on center depth and defensemen (provided you’re at the cap ceiling).
Opportunity costs are real.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Not at all. But the last 2-3 years have been focused on and around Ovi, as D’ohboy mentioned. He’s here, and he ain’t going anywhere. The Cup won’t come if we can step back and shift focus to the more important positions.
I wouldn’t be surprised if that involves letting Semin walk.
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 29, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d hope we’d at least get something for him.
"Semin had two goals this year, Perreault comes in and he gets three."
Well of course, to me that goes without saying.
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 29, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
unfortunately what also goes without saying is that we’re in “win now” mode. not the same situation as the thrashers with kovalchuk last season and not even the same situation as the panthers with bouwmeester the season before last. as is being discussed below, since semin’s a true rental, and since true rentals don’t usually bring back “win now” pieces, it seems extremely likely GMGM waits until the offseason and we either sign him or let him walk for nothing.
by Natty Bumppo on Oct 29, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I know, unfortunately. Doesn’t stop a girl from hoping though.
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 29, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait. You’re a GIRL???
Now I’ve seen everything.
;)
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Hmmm….last time I checked…
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 29, 2010 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see how the Caps have legitimate center depth and keep Semin. I’ve said before (as have many others) that I see this as Semin’s last year in a Caps jersey (barring a HUGE paycut). The team is better served by using that 6MM to upgrade D and C depth.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 29, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see it for this year and even maybe next year unless Perreault or Johansson really step up more than we can really expect from rookies. But it really gets interesting once Kuznetzov, Galiev, and Eakin become professionals. Those are a lot of cost-controlled options that could let the team splurge at wing — especially if the cap goes up the way folks think it might.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 29, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade Semin to LA for Handzus, who would then resign for less than Semin would make, use extra money to trade Flash+stuff for a scoring 2C. Everyone wins!
"Semin had two goals this year, Perreault comes in and he gets three."
In all seriousness, I’d want a hell of a lot more for Semin than Handzus :-P.
by DrinkingPartner on Oct 29, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
How about a young defender too, since we lack those all of the sudden?
Zus rules, btw.
"Semin had two goals this year, Perreault comes in and he gets three."
I’d like Hands as a 3C, certainly. Think we could get Hickey in that deal?
by DrinkingPartner on Oct 29, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Don’t know how highly they rate him these days, so I couldn’t speculate. They also have Martinez, Muzzin, and Voynov, though.
"Semin had two goals this year, Perreault comes in and he gets three."
I’d be happy with either, though it’s true we don’t need another O specialist.
by DrinkingPartner on Oct 29, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. Handzus is on the wrong end of 30, and hasn’t scored more than 50 points in a season since 03-04.
The problem with Semin is that he’s clearly a rental for whomever picks him up. Which limits his appeal to teams that are one piece away (or think they are) from Cup contention. This hypothetical team would need the cap space to keep Semin, as well as the assets in return that the Caps would want, presumably a #2C and possibly a depth defenseman.
I’ve been wracking my brain for months and I just can’t come up with the team or scenario that leads to Sasha getting traded.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Not likely, but Dallas and Richards. Dallas wants to make the playoffs for the fans/cash but also needs younger, cheaper assets. So Semin gives them an elite offensive talent for a run this year and then you give them assets for the future (Orlov?, a 1st? both?). Maybe a pending UFA like Trevor Daley could be part of it too. Dreaming, I know but some semblance of a reasonable theory.
The problem is that your scenario is fanciful. If Dallas wants to save money, why would they bring back Semin? If they want prospects in return for Richards, same question? If they’re contending, why would they get rid of their #1C?
It makes no sense.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
It makes sense in that, if they want to play both sides of the coin, they get an All Star in Semin and quality assets for the future. Of course if playoffs is what they value most, they keep Richards. If future assets, then trade Richards for a better package of picks/prospects/young roster player.
It’s not like Dallas has slouches on the wings who can’t finish, though. Their top-line left wing is James Neal, with Loui Eriksson on the right side; they’ve also got Brenden Morrow and Jamie Benn on the second line. Even though they’ve got a passable 1C playing 2C right now (Ribeiro), there’s no way that they make that trade.
I’ve been wracking my brain for months and I just can’t come up with the team or scenario that leads to Sasha getting traded.
:(
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Honestly, the only scenario I see for Semin coming back is something roughly akin to the Mueller/Wolski trade. A young, blue-chip center has faltering production and requests a trade, and the Caps, frustrated with Semin’s injury-prone nature and occasionally disinterested play, ship him out in a trade to a team that could use some extra scoring depth.
But who’s that team going to be? I could envision teams like Phoenix, St. Louis, NYI, or even Colorado ending up in that position, but none of them really have the money to pay Semin – even for a quarter of the year and the playoffs.
on a related note, if he hits the open market, what teams would be interested in Semin?
non-contenders who need to bolster fan excitement perhaps?
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
It think it’s more likely, as Wheeler says, to be teams that feel he (warts and all) could put them closer to a championship. It has to be someone that is guaranteed to be in the playoffs.
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
LA wants a scoring winger real bad.
"Semin had two goals this year, Perreault comes in and he gets three."
Yup. Alex Semin is Ilya Kovalchuk-lite (depending on your perspective, perhaps “very lite”). The teams that were interested in Kovalchuk could be interested in Semin — except of course for the one that screwed themselves over in obtaining Kovalchuk.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 29, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Kovalchuk-lite
Ilya Kovalchuk does exactly two things as well or better than Alex Semin; he stays healthy and he puts the puck into spots goalies can’t reach. He’s unequivocally the best shooter in the NHL, it’s not even close.
Every other aspect of the game? Semin in a landslide. Defense? Semin and it’s a cakewalk. Playmaking? Again, easily Semin. Penalty-killing? You take 28 far, far before 17. They’re both elite power-play guys in their own ways, but Semin is a threat to create or put the puck in himself. That wrister is formidable.
Kovy has gaudy boxcars, but you know what? He’s a blackhole defensively. He’s the equivalent of a good AHL forward in his own end. Almost all of value is derived from his shooting abilty, which is admittedly formidable.
If I wanted to win a hockey game, I’d take Alex Semin before Ilya Kovalchuk. You can call that homerism, but I think most of you know me better than that. Semin might be somebody-lite, but it ain’t Ilya Kovalchuk.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 29, 2010 2:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 4 recs
Here is your Friday Fun Fact…
Over their last 171 respective games, Ilya Kovalchuk has 89 goals, Alexander Semin has 95.
Discuss
If you've read this far...seek help.
Even if we normalized their salaries, I’m not sure I’d trade Semin straight up for Kovalchuk.
The one thing that would cause me to hesitate would be the injuries, but those can be rather unpredictable.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
OT
i’ve got two other trades in the works. should i move on from our liles dealings, or are you still interested?
by Natty Bumppo on Oct 29, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
When you think of exciting players that are going to put fans in the seats, I don’t know if Semin is that guy. There aren’t many of them in the NHL.
I wonder if he’d take a one- or two-year deal with the Red Wings.
If he’s going to do a one or two year pay-cut deal, which is what it would have to be in DET, why wouldn’t he do it here?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Because he knows he could play with a top-notch center. Here, he’s not going to be pushing Ovechkin off of Backstrom’s line. In Detroit, he could play with either Zetterberg or Datsyuk.
If you think that’s what is important to him.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Honestly, I have no clue what’s important to him. He’s an enigma wrapped in a mystery, surrounded by really hot chicks.
Do you think he’s the kind of player Detroit would pursue?
"Semin had two goals this year, Perreault comes in and he gets three."
Who knows. But Semin is looking for money and championships (probably in that order), and I’m not sure if there’s a team out there that couldn’t offer him as much.
How much could DET even offer?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
It all depends on whether Lidstrom retires or not, and if he doesn’t, how much is he going to want in salary. (He’s at $6.5M now — would he take a pay cut?) They have several forwards that aren’t signed for next year (Modano and Draper are the two biggies), and Detroit may opt to buy out Holmstrom’s last year (it’s $1.85).
But they could do it.
I have the feeling both Modano and Draper will retire at the end of this year. They’re much too old and much too decrepit to keep on playing.
Lidstrom, on the other hand, will keep playing until his skills deteriorate so far that he’s worthless. Which means he’ll be 70.
No doubt. Lidstrom through 8 games this year—1G, 8A, +3. Looks like he’s averaging about 24 mins TOI (eyeballing it).
"Because the game is not just about fighting no more. " D.J. King
The guy could play forever if there was any reason for him to. There’s really no award he’s eligible for that he hasn’t already won.
Greatest defenseman ever, for my money. Others have been more talented but no one has been playing at an elite level for nearly 2 decades now.
Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death.
Salaries have to work and the Devils are even thinner at C than the Caps are. Lou is the last GM that can afford to take on a 6m winger, both in terms of wing depth and cap-hit.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 29, 2010 11:09 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
But next time we are in FLA GMGM should plant a guy to talk real loud and laugh about how small Weiss is. Then in about 3 hours GMGM should call Tallon and ask what the price for Weiss is. 2C solved.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
by Rob Parker on Oct 29, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“WEISS A 2C? HAHAHA, MAYBE IF THE C STANDS FOR CRAPPY!!”
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Oct 29, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey Tallon, are you assembling a South Beach Habs or a hockey team? You need a big center, a bruiser. We’ve got a guy for you.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
He’s about 6’5, he’s great in the dot, and a bargain at $1 million/year!
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Oct 29, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
To continue on his analysis, I think a lot of his premise depends on not calling Chris Osgood or Mike Vernon elite goaltenders. (And I think it’s too early to write the book on Ward and Fleury.) Personally, I’d call Osgood elite. He wasn’t in the same league as Roy, Hasek or Brodeur, but he certainly wasn’t chopped liver. If we’re calling Khabibulin “elite,” then Ozzie definitely fits in that category.
On the bit about Carolina, he’s ignoring just how deep that team was up front. 2006 Carolina had better forward depth than Chicago last year, and that’s saying something. The team had Staal, Brindamour, Cullen, Weight and Adams as Cs, and Williams, Whitney, Recchi, Cole and Stillman at the wings.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Osgood’s save percentage has been lower than .900 in five of his last 8 seasons. That’s not elite in my eyes.
The guy has also won the Stanley Cup twice, has a playoff save percentage and GAA of .916 and 2.09, respectively.
For reference’s sake, Brodeur has .919 and 2.01, and Roy has a GAA of 2.3.
How is that not elite?
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Roy played a lot of his playoff games in the 80s and early 90s, when goal scoring was at its highest, so you have to take him out of the mix. Osgood won one cup by playing 21 minutes, and two others where he stood on his head for a month.
He’s a very good goalie, but he’s not elite.
I think this argument boils down to how broad your definition of “elite” is, and nothing more.
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 29, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
RCheli has a point though. Osgood is great and possibly elite, but its really hard to classify him as elite based on the statistics D’ohboy provided.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Oct 29, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
If you’re basing “elite” status on statistics, and his statistics are the same as guys who are generally conceded to be “elite,” then how can he not be considered elite?
If you’re basing it on Cups – he gets in. If you’re basing it on wins, he gets in. The only thing the guy doesn’t really have are gaudy regular season stats.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
And you could always discount him based on that ridiculous team he always had in front of him.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
But you could do that with any of the “elite” goalies from that era save Hasek, and Hasek notably never won a Cup until he played for Detroit.
Roy was seemingly the only outlier in that regard, as neither the 86 nor the 93 Habs were that great (although my memories of the 86 team are fuzzy at best).
Brodeur and Belfour both played behind defense-first systems with great defensemen and defensively committed forwards. Ozzie never once played behind a trapping team in Detroit. Sure, they’d use the lock, but that was a hell of a long way from the trap.
For example, Colorado started playing the trap under Hartley, and they played it a ton in 2001. Roy’s save percentage in 01 was basically the same as 96, but his GAA was a half a goal a game lower.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Hasek was the only guy to play for a flat out bad team.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Osgood is the Claude Lemeuix of goalies. Does squat in the regular season and then makes key plays in the postseason. The issue is what is the criteria. If its just postseason I could see an argument for Ozzie being elite. I still might not buy it, but I might. If the regular season is included then I don’t see it. The guys has a lifetime .905 save percentage playing on mainly above average teams.
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Links guy at Five For Howling.
by Carl Putnam on Oct 29, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s the winningest goalie on an O6 franchise.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
He means that Osgood is the winningest goalie in one O6 team’s (Detroit) history. Plante and Espo obviously didn’t play for Detroit, and Sawchuk played for other teams so he has fewer wins for Detroit than Osgood.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Oct 29, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Ohhh… I thought he meant that he had the most wins for any player for an O6 franchise. (And those numbers I put out were for wins for that specific franchise. So Sawchuck has 351 wins for Detroit — 447 for his career.)
Oh. Well F&B is a probably feeding you bad info because he loves Osgood so much.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Oct 29, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe it was playoff wins then. I remember people making a big deal out of it a couple years ago when he passed whoever was second.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Osgood has 46 wins, and Sawchuck has 67 in the playoffs.
I love hockey-reference.com.
But I get what you’re saying. He’s had a long and successful career, where he’s played many important games and proven himself to be a winner.
Of course, he has a terrible haircut and a goofy mask.
You got that backwards, Osgood has 67 playoff wins with DET and Sawchuk has 46. Sawchuk only has 54 total playoff wins in his career.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Oct 29, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Part of my quibble with it, however, was based on the author’s contention about who he defined as elite (Elias, Khabibulin, Ozolinsh), not necessarily any desire to build up the career of Ozzie.
If you’re doing an analysis of how to build a franchise, though, and that analysis is predicated on defining who is or is not elite, then you include Khabby in the elite group while excluding Ozzie, the final product is going to be wrong.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Detroit may not have played the trap, but by controlling the puck all the time they gave up very few shots and chances. So the effect on the goalie was similar to playing behind a trapping team.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Oct 29, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Not saying you’re wrong, but I have a hard time believing that Belfour and Brodeur saw the same volume of shots. If I had time, I’d look it up.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Osgood saw less shots on average than the other two in the playoffs.
Ozzie = 24.69
Marty = 25.5
Eagle = 27.8
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Links guy at Five For Howling.
by Carl Putnam on Oct 29, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Where’d you find that?
I’d be curious to see what Belfour’s stats were like in Dallas vs. Chicago.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I did it the old school way. I looked up their totals and did the math. Didn’t take long at all.
As for your curiosity about Belfour’s numbers, I ran those for you as well.
Chicago = 27.75
Dallas = 26.62
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Links guy at Five For Howling.
by Carl Putnam on Oct 29, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
What about Marty’s numbers in the Cup years? I feel like we should distinguish between pre- and post-03 Marty.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Through 2003 the average is 24.4, post-03 the number is 29.48.
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Links guy at Five For Howling.
Just looking at the stats on NHL.com Detroit allowed the fewest shots per game in the regular season and playoffs (by over 2 shots per game) in 2007-08, and were regularly towards the top of the league in SA/G, although the Devils were usually better in that regard throughout the late 90s early 00s.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Oct 29, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Or you can just go with CP’s superior comparison.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Oct 29, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Detroit may not have played the trap, but by controlling the puck all the time they gave up very few shots and chances. So the effect on the goalie was similar to playing behind a trapping team.
agreed. There are some nights that I feel like they cycle the puck for 50 of the 60 minutes. It’s impressive as hell to watch.
Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground
They didn’t last night.
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Links guy at Five For Howling.
by Carl Putnam on Oct 29, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
it’s because I didn’t watch :) because I thought Caps-Wild would be soooo much better. talk about bad life choice.
Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground
I chose the opposite and was rewarded. Because the games started half and hour apart I actually got to watch about half of the Caps game.
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Links guy at Five For Howling.
Maybe that’s an argument to not rely on statistics. If you honestly think it’s credible to put Osgood in the same breath as Roy/Brodeur/Hasek, then you don’t really know what you’re watching.
All three of those guys have stolen several series. When did Osgood?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I’ve made it fairly clear throughout the thread that I don’t put Osgood in the same category as those three. To me, from that era, it’s the top three plus Belfour, then Ozzie.
Still, I’m quibbling with the definition put forth in the “Box Seats” piece.
I’d have to think about the “stealing a series” bit. The best instance I can think of recently is the Chicago series from 08-09. He put up: .938, .949, .852, .947 and .968.
He was also instrumental in keeping that year’s Cup finals vs. the Pens close. That year’s edition of the Wings was atrocious defensively.
Like I said, he’s not at the level of Roy or Brodeur, but he’s a far bit better than Khabibulin and, I’d argue, the second tier guys like CuJo.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Osgood is definitely not the 5th best goalie of that era. I’d put him behind Cujo, and maybe a few other goalies in the Vanbiesbrouck/Kolzig/Richter range. He played for a ridiculously stacked team, so I discount his numbers a lot. I consider what Beezer did in the 96 playoffs or Kolzig in the 98 playoffs or Giguere in the 03 playoffs to be far and away more impressive than any postseason performance by Osgood, Cup or no Cup.
I disagree that he stole that CHI series, and that “atrocious defensively” comment is a hefty dose of hyperbole. The Wings allowed the second fewest shots against per game in the regular season and playoffs that year (behind SJ both times).
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Oct 29, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Atrocious might be a overstatement, but my point remains – that wasn’t the dominant Detroit team of years past, and it certainly wasn’t as tight defensively as their Cup team. They may have out-shot their opponents, but they also gave up goals in bunches all year long. Ozzie may have been partly responsible for that, but he also stepped up his play in the playoffs, as his stats would suggest.
Your other point is a bit of of a chicken-and-egg scenario – if Osgood plays for good teams that are supposed to win, he can almost never “steal” a series. The guys you listed all played for mediocre teams and carried those teams to upset victories. With the exception of Richter, though, none of them won Cups. We could play the counter-factual game ad nauseum, but the fact remains that Ozzie won two Cups and put up stats that are comparable to guys who are clearly “elite.”
Like I’ve been saying throughout the thread though, I don’t put him in the same boat as Roy, Hasek and Brodeur (or Belfour). I do think that in the context of the article I’m citing, however, that he ought to be listed as “elite” based on the other players that the article considers elite.
The larger point, one on which we disagree apparently, is where Ozzie belongs among his peers. I think he’s a horribly underrated goalie and deserves a spot somewhere behind the Roy, Hasek, Brodeur triumvirate and Eddie the Eagle. I know this is heresy, but I don’t think Kolzig displayed the career longevity/consistency, and I think that Beezer, despite some phenomenal years, was far too inconsistent. The jury’s still out on Giguere. He looked monstrous for a few years, but then he regressed badly. If he can put up respectable numbers in Toronto, I’d change my mind.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Well, Richter did play for a Presidents’ Trophy winner, that team was pretty stacked. It’s more about the fact that I can never remember seeing Osgood and thinking “this guy is just not going to be beaten right now,” whereas you could say that about a lot of other goalies.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Osgood never struck fear into me as an Avs fan in the same way that Belfour did, but yet, the Wings still managed to win consistently with him in net. I look back at the failed CuJo and Legace experiments as evidence of the fact that Ozzie wasn’t just some replaceable cog.
Put simply, if I had to pick from among any of the other goalies of the era outside Roy, Hasek, Belfour and Brodeur to put on the Wings, I’m not sure any of them would do appreciably better than Ozzie. Beezer had one great year. CuJo had a few great series. Giguere and Kolzig had a couple great years.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Roman Turek trumps them all.
Just kidding—but his 1999-2000 stats are pretty damn impressive. It must have been a close vote between him and Olie for the Vezina that year
67 games 42-15-9 7 shutouts 1.95 GAA .912%
I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.
by Rather Bengt on Oct 29, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Except for Felix Potvin. If Detroit had Felix the Cat, I guarantee a minimum of 5 Cups.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Leafs fans would have been happy with just one.
I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.
by Rather Bengt on Oct 29, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Beezer had one great playoff run, but he had a hell of a lot more than one great year. He single handedly dragged an expansion team to respectability in their first several years, and this was after he had already won a Vezina. Osgood has had several steady years (as have Beezer, Richter, and Kolzig), but how many great years did he have?
I know you are placing much more emphasis on winning Cups, but when we are talking about the best goalies it doesn’t make sense to me to ignore the regular season and place so much weight on team accomplishment. Ignoring the numbers, was there ever a season when you thought Osgood was one of the best goalies in the league? Was there ever a playoff season when Osgood put the team on his back and carried them to victory for even a series? Detroit lost early in some playoffs and Osgood also played for STL and the Isles. When did Osgood ever bail them out when the rest of the team played a subpar series? In three playoffs without a stacked team in front of him those numbers don’t look quite so hot: 2.52 GAA and .905 SV% (putting him in Turek, Biron, Emery, Esche numbers territory, instead of Roy, Hasek and Brodeur).
Osgood isn’t mediocre, but he isn’t elite either. He’s a steady goalie with enough composure to (usually) make the saves he needs to make sure a stacked team can win in the playoffs. That has value for sure, but that’s not what I think of when I think of top goalies. I think of a goalie who can routinely make big saves to help his team overachieve, not one that just keeps his team from underachieving.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Oct 29, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Osgood was certainly not elite. He was a mediocre goalie who could turn it on in the playoffs. During the regular season, he was below .900 7 times, and his highest save % was .917. During the playoffs, he was quite a bit better, but still not elite.
There is no problem a hammer cannot either fix or make irrelevant.
See stats above. His playoff performance, and if we’re talking Stanley Cup, we’re talking playoffs, was certainly elite.
And I say this as a Colorado Avalanche fan who used to hate the guy’s guts. Regular season stats notwithstanding, Osgood is every bit the elite goaltender that Khabibulin is, and then some.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
He was very good in the playoffs, but not in the regular season. His success came from being on a good team. He was solid, but far from elite.
There is no problem a hammer cannot either fix or make irrelevant.
He put up stats that are equal to Roy and Brodeur in the playoffs. They are both adjudged to be “elite.” They both played on great teams as well. If we’re talking Stanley Cup playoffs (which is the point), then he’s elite.
Moreover, I’d also change his table to include Claude Lemieux as an elite winger, given his playoff performances.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
His regular season performance puts him far below Roy and Brodeur.
There is no problem a hammer cannot either fix or make irrelevant.
I just looked up Roy’s stats on hockey-reference. His last full season in juniors (84-85), Roy’s GAA was 5.58! Did anyone play defense in the QMJHL in the 80s?
Are we talking about the regular season?
How did the Caps’ regular season stats do for them in the playoffs? How about the Sharks’?
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
It has to be included in here. It’s part of hockey.
There is no problem a hammer cannot either fix or make irrelevant.
The discussion was: how do you build a Stanley Cup winning team?
If you ask me, who would you rather have: Dany Heatley or Claude Lemieux in his prime, I’d probably say Lemieux. If you ask me, who would you rather have: Toews or Staal, I’d say Toews.
And so on. Regular season can’t be ignored entirely, but as long as you’re good enough to get to the playoffs, that’s all that matters. From there, it’s a different game, and Osgood did pretty damn well at it.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Which is to say neither of them are actually elite.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 29, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Elite (presuming no argument):
Roy: .918/2.30
Brodeur: .919/2.01
Hasek: .925/2.02
Others:
Belfour: .920/2.17
CuJo: .917/2.42
Khabby: .917/2.40
Beezer: .915/2.68
Osgood: .916/2.09
I’ll point out that, out of all those players, Ozzie was the one who never played for a “trapping” team. Even Colorado played the trap under Bob Hartley.
Osgood’s regular season performances often weren’t great, but the guy’s post-season resume puts him in the “elite” status in my book.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
You have to look at when these guys played most of their careers, though. While they crossed over, Osgood had the most time in the low-scoring late-90s/early-00s.
What is their GAA+? (Is there something like that, like with baseball’s ERA+ or OPS+ that takes era out of consideration.)
Ozzie’s career basically overlapped precisely with Brodeur’s.
The other guys are dinged somewhat by their time playing during the 80s. It’s tough to make cross-era comparisons, but I think they all spent enough time in the same era to make the comparison valid.
I’m not saying Ozzie is exactly the equal of Hasek and Roy and Brodeur, I’m just saying if you’re differentiating out the “elite” guys from the decent and the also-rans, Ozzie belongs more to the former than the latter.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I don’t see it. Brodeur had 7 playoffs with his GAA was under 2, and his numbers are only comparable with Osgood because his last 4 playoffs really pulled his numbers up. Overwork + Age = Brodeur in the playoffs post lockout.
Brodeur also played behind the trap-happy Devils and Niedermayer/Stevens/Daneyko.
Like I said, I’m not taking Ozzie over Hasek, Roy, Belfour or Brodeur, but I think that writing him off as a mediocre goalie who was the product of his team isn’t fair, either. His post-season stats and accomplishments match up well with those guys, and beat almost anyone else from his era. When your stats can even be compared to four sure-fire HOFers, and they best almost everyone else from that era, I have a hard time not calling the guy elite, particularly given the author of the original piece’s description of “elite.”
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Nobody called him “mediocre.” We’re just debating the difference between “great” and “elite.”
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Oct 29, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok, but my premise was based more around the author’s original point, and on the spreadsheet in his Box Seats piece. Essentially, if you include some of the players in his table as “elite” players, then you have to include Ozzie as elite, and if you do, you change the fundamental nature of the findings, since his sample size is so relatively small.
To sum up: if Elias, Khabibulin, Giguere, Ozolinsh, Dan Boyle, Seabrook et. al are “elite,” then Ozzie definitely deserves to be listed in his table. If you do that, it fundamentally alters the findings.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Ahh…see, I didn’t see the spreadsheet. If those guys (Elias, Giggy, etc) are elite, then Osgood definitely is. Comparing him to Marty and Roy, he just doesn’t seem (IMO of course) to be on the same level.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Oct 29, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
When I wrote this peice up, my biggest concern was that it would boil down to a very subjective “who’s elite and who’s not” argument. Granted, Elias, Giguere and Boyle were border-line elite players during that time-frame and their entry on the list is certainly subject to argument. You can feel free to mentally remove them from the spreadsheet along with Hasek and Andreychuk (who didn’t play for the Devils in 94-95 – my mistake). You can add Osgood back if you so desire (although I wouldn’t). Either way, it won’t change the big picture conclusions: 1) having a franchise, cornerstone goalie isn’t as important as centers and defensemen; 2) no SC winners built their team around wingers; and 3) we need a 2C really bad if we want to compete this year.
The "Other" Box Seats Blogger
The reason I’m pointing it out is that it pretty heavily changes the results, particularly if you throw Mike Vernon in there (2-time Cup winner, although I wouldn’t include him). Because then you can argue that basically every team had an “elite” goalie.
I agree with points 2 and 3, but I’d disagree with point 1 as a categorical statement.
In the end, I think I agree with most of your points, I just slightly disagree with how you got there.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Not buying CAR’s depth over CHI. Didn’t have the same top end talent, though you could say they had more secondary scorers. But CHI’s secondary scorers were no slouches. I’ll take the CHI crew every time.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I know you hate the Canes, but Carolina had Dougie Weight as their #3C, back when Dougie Weight didn’t suck. Stillman, Recchi, Cole…
Their D was unimpressive, but their forwards were most definitely not. I don’t think they had the elite talents of Kane or Hossa, but their depth, along with stellar play from Ward, carried them to the Cup.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Weight also had one shoulder and was still old. Kane, Toews, Hossa. All as good or better than Staal, the best Cane. Then Sharp, Bolland, Kopecky, Versteeg, Buff.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I know you hate Staal, but his worst post-lockout season is 70 points, which is still better than Toews’ best season. He’ll likely never be the 45G/55A player he was in 05-06, but he’s better than you’re giving him credit for.
Kane, Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Bolland, Kopecky, Versteeg, Buff, Brouwer (top-9 in scoring order)
Staal, Stillman, Brind’amour, Williams, Cullen, Recchi, Weight, Whitney, Ladd
Not the same top-end talent, but I’d take 2006 Recks, Weight, Whitney and Cullen over 2010 Bolland, Kopecky, Versteeg and Brouwer.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Toews does a lot of other things Staal doesn’t do. He’s better on the dot, and in his own zone. If you ask every team in the league if they’d rather have Staal or Toews I’d bet at least 28 take Toews.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Cole is incredibly overrated and also only played 2 games in the 06 playoffs because of that Orpik hit.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Oct 29, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Stillman, Williams, Cullen. . .
The team absorbed the loss of both Cole and Weight and still won.
Are they going to go down in history as one of the all-time great teams? Obviously not. But treating them as some ridiculous fluke is a disservice to how deep that team was.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Oct 29, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That’s not what anyone said, though. The question is who had more depth, CHI or CAR. It’s CHI.
CHI also didn’t have the incredible luck that CAR had, both in terms of the Conn Smythe white hot goalie and facing a team in the Conference Finals that was so injured they had to dress Jeff Jillson and Doug Janik.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
That’s not what anyone said, though.
You’ve gotta read the whole thread, man. I’m responding to something written in the “Box Seats” blog on WaPo in which the author essentially said that the Canes were a massive fluke. My response was that the team was ridiculously deep up front.
As a matter of fact, if you look at the playoff stats of those two teams (10 Chi and 06 Car), they mirror each other to a remarkable degree in terms of depth. Both teams had two guys out ahead of everyone (Toews (29) and Kane (28) and Staal (28) and Stillman (26)), then a bunch of guys in double digits, with Chicago having 9 players in double-digits and Carolina having 10.
The difference, to me, is that Carolina’s top scorers were mostly forwards (Kaberle and Hedican were 9 and 10, respectively), whereas Chicago got a big contribution from Keith.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I can’t say it any clearer, I would take the CHI crew of forwards over the CAR crew of forwards every single time.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
That’s not the apples-to-apples comparison I’m making here, if I read you correctly.
If you were to give offer me both groups and say “build a team around one,” I’d probably take Chicago, but that has more to do with how young some of those players are.
If you were to say: “one playoffs for all the marbles,” I think that’s a much, much harder question. Staal, Recchi, Stillman, Weight, Whitney, Cullen, Brindamour vs. Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Versteeg, Bolland and Byfuglien? Call me nuts, but I think I might take the former group.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
You’re nuts.
2006 Carolina had better forward depth than Chicago last year, and that’s saying something.
That’s the line I’ve been arguing with the whole time. I’m not sure where I read that one sentence wrong, but feel free to clarify.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Ok. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
While I think that Kane, Toews and Hossa are remarkable players, I think you’re discounting how good Recchi, Stillman, Weight, Whitney, Cullen and Brindamour were in 06. I know they’ve all declined since then, but that’s a damn scary group. I also think that Versteeg and Byfuglien are slightly overrated, and Hossa simply did not have a great playoffs last year.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
And I think you didn’t mention Sharp. You’re also ignoring the injuries in the CAR group (although you did finally drop Cole).
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
And as “not great” as Hossa was he still gave essentially the same production as Weight and is actually really good in his own end. Watching Hossa last year, his stats weren’t as good as his play.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Fair enough, but I’d give the overall nod to Weight on account of him being a center and the defensive responsibilities therein. And you know that’s tough for me to say, what with my massive Marian Hossa man-crush.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Weight has more D responsibilities, no doubt, but he’s not as good at them. It’s a tough trade off to consider, for sure. I also have a difficulty with exactly when you are talking about these lineups. Both had injuries at various points so if you are talking about the SCF, then Weight didn’t even contribute. If you’re talking about the playoff run, when you weren’t impressed with Hossa, can you really ignore that it wasn’t a true representation of how good he was? How much credit does Brindy get for just being hot for a couple of rounds (not even the whole playoffs)?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Yeah, therein is part of the rub with comparing two different teams in two different situations. In this case, I’d probably fall back on the entirety of their career and how they were performing at the time, in which case, I’d give the nod to Hossa over Weight. But that’s kind of a no-brainer. The real question in terms of depth is how do you compare the Hawks’ secondary guys to the Canes’? Personally, I don’t think some of Versteeg, Byfuglien, Bolland and Ladd are going to turn out to be as good as their performances last year might indicate.
This huge digression aside, I think the point I really wanted to make originally is just that Carolina wasn’t a huge fluke. Their team didn’t “look” like a traditional SC team, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t good or deserving. They got lucky, but every team that wins the Cup usually has some luck on their side.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I agree CAR was good, and luck happens to everyone. I just like that CHI crew a whole lot. I’d say Buff and Versteeg are the guys that may fall off. Bolland wasn’t even that great, and his contract is brutal, but he’s a pretty decent 3C. I think Ladd has a ton of upside. He’s never gotten quality ice and he seems to do well. I think this year he’ll get that ice in ATL and it will be interesting to see how he uses it.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Ladd was on the CAR team during the cup run in 2006 as well. If you are going for either team, I would have to opt for CHI based solely on their average age — CAR’s was something like 29/30. (And quite a few of them were from the 2002 team and already in their 30s at that point.)
This huge digression aside, I think the point I really wanted to make originally is just that Carolina wasn’t a huge fluke. Their team didn’t "look" like a traditional SC team, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t good or deserving. They got lucky, but every team that wins the Cup usually has some luck on their side.
The dismissive tone of the article towards CAR was off-putting. No, they weren’t God’s gift, etc., but they were a pretty damn competent team. (Who got hella lucky.)
Got my user name back from the dingo...
I think you’re underselling Bolland.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 29, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s the one that I think has some potential to be more than a role player. I see Versteeg and Buff as role players. Bolland could potentially be a top-6 two way centerman (if he’s not already).
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
That’s funny. Here I’m using him as a reason CHI had better forwards, and I’m the guy underselling him. Maybe I’m just holding his contract against him, but I haven’t seen him live up to the potential that got him that deal. IIRC he got absolutely smoked by the top lines he faced in the playoffs last year. I think the HTML line dominated him and would have made him look a lot worse if Niemi didn’t have a few great games in there.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Yep, Bolland was a huge negative in Corsi and in scoring chances too, I think, yet came out in the black in 5-on-5 scoring.
by red army line on Oct 29, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
and if I remember right, his special teams play was really great.
I wonder if those Corsi numbers are adjusted for zone starts and such. I get the sense he played a lot of very tough minutes with pretty good results. My impression is that his line maybe didn’t get all that many shots when they were out there, but the other team didn’t get very many goals.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 29, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
He got good results, for sure. But surrendering plenty of chances to the other top lines is no formula for success no matter which way you cut it. He wasn’t as bad as the Corsi has it, but still not great—and that’s with Keith behind him.
by red army line on Oct 30, 2010 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The HTML line destroyed him and so did the Richards line.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 29, 2010 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I would say it’s more that he’s underachieved since that brutal injury. He still has his step, but hasn’t really gotten the scoring touch back.
"If you want money go to the bank, if you want bread go to the bakery if you want goals go to the net." - #21
by snakegriffin on Oct 29, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
The year of his injury he had 30 goals and 59 points in 60 games. The year after, he had 29 goals and 61 points in 71 games. A difference, yes, but don’t blame that hit.
He was lucky those two years, I think. His shooting percentage of 18% and 17% those years are 5% higher than his career average.
Interesting, I’d thought he’d tapered off immediately after that injury. Canes Country talks about his “upper body injury” last year as nearly ending his career. Wonder what has really caused his decline, I’m not entirely sure it’s luck.
"If you want money go to the bank, if you want bread go to the bakery if you want goals go to the net." - #21
by snakegriffin on Oct 29, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve raised this possibility before, but it might be that GM’s plan is to wait until next year, when the young D and MJ90 will have more experience, he’ll have a better idea of what he’s got in Varly and Neuvy, and he’s had a chance to ship out Steckel and Flash. In other words, this year might be the equivalent of a “waiting move” in chess.
If that’s the case, he’s realized that the team as currently composed has a very low likelihood of winning a Cup, and he’s conserving his salary cap space for this year. We’ll see what he does with regard to the C position and the D depth. If he bolsters those, then they’re trying to win this year. If he doesn’t then I expect him to trade Flash and Steckel, if for no other reason than to open roster spots. Then if MJ90 is a legit 3C, and you have a top 5 of Schultz, Green, Poti, Alzner and Carlson, you can add two D and one C, and you’ve got a lineup.
We’ll see.
Patron saint of quality footwear.
I think that’s a very solid theory. It also fits with the “we want to have a very good team for a long time” mantra, which means not trading top prospects and 1st round picks. And if you’re not willing to trade those assets, you’re probably not getting an impact C (eg Richards) or top pairing shut down defenseman. So GMGM will gauge the market and if he can get lucky and get the right pieces without giving up a ton, then he’ll do it. Otherwise, he’ll make moves around the margin a-la last season and hope the team gets really hot at the right time.
If GMGM is approaching this season thinking this team has a very low likelihood of winning a Cup, he’s going to be out of a job. He needs to be thinking about making sure this team is in the mix for the Cup now and act accordingly. He can only kick the can down the road so much. He’s got cap space and assets now. Not that he should push all his chips to the center ala the Hawks, but he shouldn’t be thinking “next year” either when his defacto second line guys are all UFA’s at year’s end.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Oct 29, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree. The “looking to the future” era is long over.
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 29, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m reposting part of what I put up a couple weeks ago about our 2C problem, which pertains to timeliness. I expect plenty of causation/correlation comments from you all:
The biggest issue I have with the 2C/Top 4D problems is that there likely is no silver bullet here. Let’s just look at the 1C/2C Cup winning tandems included in this post:
In 2004 Tampa Bay had Vincent Lecavalier (1998) and Brad Richards (2000)
In 2006 Carolina had Eric Staal (2003) and Rod Brind’Amour (1999)
In 2007 Anaheim had Ryan Getzlaf (2005) and Andy McDonald (2001)
In 2008 Detroit had Pavel Datsyuk (2001) and Henrik Zetterberg (2002)
In 2009 Pittsburgh had Sidney Crosby (2005) and Evgeni Malkin (2006) and Jordan Staal (2006)
In 2010 Chicago had Jonathan Toews (2007), Patrick Sharp (2006) and Dave Bolland (2007)
The year in parentheses after the player is the year they started playing for that franchise. The shortest amount of time any of those centers had w/ a team is 2 seasons. Simply put, they knew the team, its system, and had continuity. I wouldn’t doubt if there was a similar trend w/ top D pairings on Cup winners.
So now the Caps are going to bring in a 2C at the trade deadline, have them learn the system in a month, then guide us through the playoffs in the harshest conditions possible?
Not saying it can’t be done, but the odds of the Caps shipping in a magic bullet 2C (and also a top four D) at the trade deadline doesn’t leave me encouraged when we have even larger depth problems at those positions this year.
So the sooner they attempt to fix the 2C/D problem, let that guy(s) mesh with the team and system, the better in my view.
*F&B pointed out the DET added Brad Stuart at D at the deadline in ’08.
"Because the game is not just about fighting no more. " D.J. King
by bigeugene on Oct 29, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
One small fly in the ointment is Pittsburgh; there was player continuity, but the system they won the Cup with was about as different as it could have be from Therrien’s strategy.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 29, 2010 1:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
True, there is that. Could be an outlier, or perhaps it’s not system related, but more related to players’ tenure together. I realize that the 1C/2C dynamic is just one of many ingredients that make up the amorphous recipe for “What it Takes to Win the Cup” stew (along with you aren’t likely to win if you aren’t above .500 ten games into the season, etc., etc.).
"Because the game is not just about fighting no more. " D.J. King
Interesting theory, but I disagree. The Caps have too many FAs after this year – if anything, they’ll take a step back next year, barring some interesting moves.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
But Brooks will resign and other than Sasha, who is really that critical? Maybe the bet is use the Sasha cash for the 2C and D upgrade, the young guys get older, and the team is more Cup competitive next year.
Yeah, but we thought they’d use the available cash on a C and D this year, too.
"Semin had two goals this year, Perreault comes in and he gets three."
fair point but we didn’t have that much cash and the options weren’t great (though as I recall, the options aren’t terrific next off season either unless Richards doesn’t resign with Dallas)
The C options aren’t great this year, either. Brad Richards (who we won’t sign) and Tim Connolly (who is way too injury prone) are probably the best centers on the market.
I’m beginning to think that teams can’t build at the center position through free agency anymore, because it’s getting to be CW among league GMs that the center position is so critical that you lock up good 1Cs or 2Cs for an extended period of time, if possible. Conceivably, one could argue that this Caps team developed too early by making the late-season push in 2007-2008 and missing out on another lottery pick.
Anyone see this from last night? Thoughts?
I know I’m a homer, so take it with salt, but I’m wondering what the ref was smoking. Sure, Tootoo has a justified reputation, but he didn’t leave his feet till after contact and it was shoulder-to-shoulder. Charging? Maybe. Ejection? No. Way.
I’ve watched it several times, and the principal point of contact is at the shoulders. Right foot is still on the ice at contact. Looks awful at full speed, but the game misconduct was totally unwarranted. I don’t mind 2 for charging there, but you could argue that Strachan could’ve gone for roughing and even Boyes for cross-checking, too.
At any rate, Blues fans see it one way, Preds fans another – objective observers, gimme your opinion.
This was similar to the Kris Letang hit that got him thrown out of the game against the Islanders. The hit looked bad, and referees have to react to what they think they see. The ref down at the goal line didn’t call it, however, so it’s a little surprising that the guy with the best view of it saw it for what it was — a big, clean hit.
I’m sure they’ll rescind the game misconduct.
Right, but I was at the game, and there was no whistle or arm raised until Strachan started punching Tootoo – a good 3 or 4 second delay. Basically, there was no initial call for charging until they saw that Cola was not getting up.
by Chris Burton on Oct 29, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
That was a textbook Colby Armstrong Special.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 29, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He left his feet and it looked as though his shoulder hit Coliacovo in the head with it. It’s not as bad as the Cooke-Savard hit by any means, but if they’re serious about protecting players’ heads, this play needs to be penalized.
Whether it’s deserving of a suspension is another story.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
_______
I’m not saying he shouldn’t have been penalized, but the ejection was pretty harsh. Here’s the initial contact, as best I could get it. Looks shoulder-y to me:
by Chris Burton on Oct 29, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
That angle looks mighty inconclusive, in favor of either case, to me.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 29, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Real question is: Where’s his elbow making contact?
"Semin had two goals this year, Perreault comes in and he gets three."
Somewhere in the chest, I think. Note his glove right above the word “medicine” on the boards. At least, I think that’s his glove.
by Chris Burton on Oct 29, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I definitely wouldn’t call that an elbow. I think there was contact with the head, though maybe not initial.
I would call it a blindside hit considering where Colaiacovo was behind the net and where Tootoo came from, though i can see where the argument against that would be. As I said before, this is a Colby Armstrong Special, and even if they aren’t (always) hits to the head, they are blindside hits to players in vulnerable positions simply for the sake of trucking someone. And I think that kind of hit should be taken out of the game.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 29, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Shoulder cap into head, feet are off the ice. I watched it and stopped it about a millisecond before or after this frame and the shoulder was pretty cleanly hitting Cola in the earhole.
That looks pretty bad to me. It looks like Tootoo may be the “victim” of the NHL’s new rule interpretation. I don’t want to see the “wussification” of hockey, but the NHL has to find a way to protect guys’ heads.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
this is in the head?
That is the very first time the players make contact. Blurry, but you can still see.
I’m not condoning the hit by any means. He didn’t go for the puck, and Cola wasn’t looking. Bad play, definitely a penalty. But 5 and a game, and probably a suspension? Nah.
by Chris Burton on Oct 29, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Like I said, it’s not Cooke-Savard, but come on.
Tootoo is 5’9" if we’re being generous. If he want to hit Cola in the shoulder, he doesn’t need to extend like he is. He’s clearly headhunting.
I think you’re discounting the third dimension in this image. If you look where Cola’s shoulder and head are versus Tootoo’s shoulder and then you extrapolate the 6 inches forward (to account for the fact that Tootoo’s shoulder has depth), you basically end up with Tootoo catching Cola in the head.
Like I said, it’s not nearly Cooke-Savard or Richards-Booth, but if the NHL is serious about protecting their players, they have to do something about these hits. Moreover, this is Jordan Tootoo. If this were Stevie Sullivan, I’d give him the benefit of the doubt, but Tootoo is a headhunter.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Fair enough. Disagree, but I can see what you’re getting at.
Like I said at first, it was probably largely a reputation call. Justified reputation? Probably. Jordin’s pretty reckless, but to call him a headhunter is to only go on a few isolated incidents.
At any rate, we’ll see. I don’t want these hits in the game any more than you, but further discipline on this would be iffy.
by Chris Burton on Oct 29, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Tootoo probably caught a glancing blow on the shoulder, but most of the force still went to the head. In order to really crack down on the head hunting hits I have no problem with the refs and the NHL punishing hits like this and the Brown one where it is a borderline head/shoulder hit. Both guys may have caught a piece of the shoulder, but the effect on the head is basically the same. Players have to learn to be more careful with these blindside hits and only go for the kill shot if they can clearly get all shoulder.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Oct 29, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I shaded Tootoo
Looks like he’s hitting the head to me.
"Semin had two goals this year, Perreault comes in and he gets three."
by jordanDC on Oct 29, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Definitely charging…borderline whether or not it should be a major. Personally, I don’t have any problem with a player getting a major when they are head hunting. Did he make contact with the head in this instance? I don’t think so. However, was he looking to wreck a guy in a vulnerable position? Definitely. There was absolutely no effort to play the puck…none whatsoever. It is an aspect of the game that has filtered down through almost all levels of hockey. I remember GMGM talking about his kid playing travel and that a number of his teamates were out with concussions. He attributed it partly to kids no longer playing the puck and instead just looking for the hit. Young players today don’t seem to understand that the point of checking is to separate the opposing player from the puck so that your team can gain possession. Hitting for hitting sake is pointless and likely to leave one out of position.
Worse than the Backstrom on Goc hit. I don’t expect the same outrage at OtF though. It was predatory, IMO. He saw a vulnerable guy and he went for the kill shot. Whether or not he left his feet before or after contact, he was launching upwards when he could have buried his shoulder in Coli’s ribcage. The league needs to end the “skate on the ice” distinction and punish the launching hits, IMO.
Strachan also took it easy on him. He should have just started throwing and prettied up that face until Tootoo defended himself. The Ol’ Robidas. And I don’t even hate Tootoo.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
My opinion, good call on the ice. He was defintely leaving his feet to make the check and it appears that the head was the first point of contact. Remember, the refs see it once at full speed and I totally understand why they made that call. Once they make the call, the game misconduct is automatic.
To me, the issue with these and similar hit is that Tootoo could have made sure it was a clean shoulder hit (charging penalty notwithstanding) but ended up going high and leaving his feet. Too many times guys could have made clean hard shoulder checks but for some reason they end up going high.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Oct 29, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Chris Corrinet
As a long time fan of the Caps, I can honestly admit I have absolutely no recollection of Chris Corrinet’s 8 games here in 2001-2002. But according to his Internet Hockey Database page, he pulled a Quintin Laing and played his last year in 2004-2005 with the Victoria Salmon Kings.
I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.
sweet graphic design.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Not a long trip from “Up and Comer” to “Down and Outer” is there? At least he wasn’t touted as “Calder Candidate”.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Oct 29, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Kerry Fraser's Autobiography
Worth reading a blog post from Down Goes Brown on this, if you haven’t already. It was cited in the New York Times Slapshot blog this morning.
Enjoy.
Life With Spidey -- a blog about sports, travel, work, family and fun.
Representing Caps fandom in the Gateway to the West.
Not quite sure what to make of this note from Tim Leone’s article today:
With the Washington Capitals on the road, injured goalie Semyon Varlamov visited Giant Center and took Dmitry Kugryshev to lunch.
On the one hand, it seems like a long way to drive for a burger. And on the other, if he’s got an injured groin is sitting in a car for 4-5 hours roundtrip really that good of an idea?
I don’t know how you’re doing it, but it doesn’t strain my groin much when I drive.
"Semin had two goals this year, Perreault comes in and he gets three."
Maybe he just knows what it’s like to be a lonely Russian in Hershey.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Perhaps he was availing himself of the Bears training staff while the Caps are on the road.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Oct 29, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Someone take the shovels away from Darryl Sutter. Per Pierre Lebrun:
I’m told Giordano’s new extension is worth $4.02 M x 5 years
Oh Darryl Sutter. Your team is in salary cap hell. Why are you spending like that?
Is that per year? No way it’s .8 mill per so I assume it is. Insanity. He’s going to have to move a D. I’d buy for sure.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I’d love Ian White, I’m just afraid of who he’d want back. Probably Fehr, from our available list.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
At the deadline, I’d think you could probably get White for a good offensive prospect.
My guess is that Sutter would ask for Eakin.
I’d probably do that. I’d rather pick up White sooner than the deadline though.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I kind of doubt that they’re even sellers at the deadline. They’re probably going to be in the playoff hunt, and they don’t exactly seem primed to kick off a rebuild, especially if they’re giving out contracts like this.
In the West?
I have 4 teams from the Central making it: STL has been great so far, Chicago, Nashville, and Detroit are all teams that should make it as well.
LA and SJS are basically locks out of the Pacific, as well as Vancouver in the NW. That leaves one spot between the rest of the west and I think that Phoenix is better. Maybe CGY sneaks in at 8th, but I don’t see them as any better than that and they may finish behind some of the other teams. They’re even worse at C than the Caps are and basically a Kiprusoff-poor-season from the lottery.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 29, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I read it as “4.02 times five years” so, yeah, that’s per year.
Incidentally, that’s the exact same cap hit as Robyn Regehr’s last contract, which was also 4.02 million x 5 years.
We talked about concussion testing and the possibility of players purposely tanking their baseline a few weeks back, and a couple people though I was more or less crazy for suggesting it. Well, I’m not the only one who has caught on to the idea. It sucks if it turns out like that, because that ends up ruining the point of the test, but it was a foreseeable outcome from the very start.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
To give you an idea of what these tests look like, go here and take a look.
A couple of things stick out to me.
One: it’s pretty easy to detect sandbagging on a test that measures your reaction time. The conscious processes that one would have to go through in order to slow down one’s reaction time would throw the results off so significantly that they’d be treated as a statistical outlier. We’re not talking about tenths-of-seconds-worth of difference, but hundredths-of-seconds. Likewise, consider the test-taking population: they’re professional hockey players, who rely on having fast reaction times and condition themselves such that their reaction times are faster. Anyone who sandbags to the point where they could come back quickly from a concussion would look like such a statistical outlier from the general population that the results would immediately get tossed.
That being said, a lot of the things tested here could be confounded by things like a bad night’s sleep or a hangover. That, however, could be solved easily enough by doing baseline testing multiple times, randomly, and without warning, in order to develop a true baseline.
Second, regarding Ruff’s concerns:
Ruff joins Pominville’s concern that the winger may have done so well the first time that it could be a difficult struggle to match the score no matter how healthy he feels.
“We talked about that,” Ruff said. “That is a real possibility. Maybe it’s one of those tests you got 100 percent, and you’re an 80 percent student.”
Again, you could have taken your latter test on a bad day (e.g. when you hadn’t slept well, or you had a bad hangover, whatever). But, statistically, these are the sorts of things that should wash out with repeated administrations of the test.
Chances are that Pominville is still suffering from some lingering concussion symptoms, even if they’re not necessarily physically manifesting themselves. And if that’s the case, and the test is keeping him from playing (and thus significantly lowering his risk for a concussion) it’s doing its job.
by Wheeler on Oct 29, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good stuff. If that’s the case, then the 100%/80% analogy isn’t even really that accurate. It’s not the same as just getting luck and acing a test. I think the NHL really should do multiple baselines if a bad night of sleep, or a hangover, could really have a significant impact on the results. Hopefully they’d think about that and adjust accordingly, but it’s the NHL. Would purposely getting wasted or staying up late be a way to sandbag the test without being too obvious (if the NHL does a single test baseline)?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
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