Monday Caps Clips: Another Week Begins
by J.P. on Oct 18, 2010 6:40 AM EDT
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PrintYour savory breakfast links:
- Breaking down Saturday night's game-winner. [On The Forecheck]
- Catching up with Brooks Laich. [Red Light District]
- Due to the fact that he's one of the only Caps pivots that can win faceoffs in the early going, Nicklas Backstrom is starting a lot of his shifts in the defensive zone. Here's part of what that means. [Insider2]
- The Caps have been rather "meh" in Fenwick so far. [RLS]
- The week in scoring chances... [RMNB]
- ... and a look at the week ahead. [CK]
- CrowdWave - yay or nay? [Puck Daddy]
- A couple of cold Caps prospects over in Mother Russia. [Russian Prospects]
- Per the HHoF, on this date back in 1983, the Caps traded Ken Houston and Brian Engblom to Los Angeles for Larry Murphy. Five years to the day earlier, the Caps traded a previously acquired number one pick (used to select Tom McCarthy) to Minnesota for Dennis Maruk. Good trade vibes today, eh?
- A few notes and pics from Hershey. [LDN, LDN, Caps In Pictures]
- On an administrative note, if you like this site, how about "liking" the site on Facebook? Go here and click "like." Gracias.
- Oh, and don't forget about our viewing party Thursday night.
- Finally, happy 31st birthday to Alex Henry.
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Yeah, too bad they put up a picture of Voukon (who came in 3rd) though, not Neuvy.
"Because the game is not just about fighting no more. " D.J. King
From that Laich interview:
Most new guys say ‘Holy man, did you see that?’ I’ve seen it for six years and you just get used to seeing such a wonderful talent. Pretty lucky to have a front row seat to see that every night… it’s pretty neat.
Holy man? I don’t think so . . .
"This guy is an android. He's not human....Oh my goodness."
Maybe he’s a Blind Melon fan.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 18, 2010 7:57 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Didn’t even have to click the link, so I’m blind rec’in.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Oct 18, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Another tidbit from BL; talking about who’s personalities will stand out in the 24/7 series, he said “Mike Knuble is edgy and different.” ?? Didn’t expect that. Another reason to pay for HBO for December.
"HISTORY DOESN’T MATTER!!! .... Who cares if it’s never been done? We aren’t those teams who failed before. We are in control of our own destiny, and we will make it happen our own way.." - A Gordon, June 2010
Woe if someone calls him Grandpa Slippers while the cameras are rolling.
(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)
You know, I always wonder how much these guys know about what we call them/how we talk about them…
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I definitely get the impression that people associated with the team follow the discussion here.
"It's always good to have vikings."
If Bradley lets Brooksies’ secret team name slip in an interview, then we’ll know.
(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)
by oldemystix on Oct 18, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
They do, for sure – not sure how deeply they delve into the insane asylum comments section, but they at least check in. I’m wondering about the players, though. For example, Nate told Bradley about that 5-year anniversary post I wrote for him, so Brads knew about it but I doubt he actually read it.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I would guess that the players have better things to do with their time than to read the comments. I know that some college football players and their family members read message boards. No clue about pro athletes though.
I wouldn’t put it past some of the younger guys, especially the ones tweeting for furniture advice.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Actually they both have girls so I would think besides setting up apartments, they are either spending time with the girls here or on the phone with them, too, or just hanging out together over reading our strange musings about them. They might get told about some post by Nate someday and look at it if they are especially bored. I would guess the younger players would be more likely to check out message boards. We have so many foreign, non-native English speaking players and I doubt any of them or their families would read message boards here. But who knows, maybe someone like Knuble’s brother that was at Caps con and seemed to follow his career closely gets on message boards occasionally
I have an idea, why doesn’t someone ask Carlson/Alzner on twitter if they ever read message boards.
It was a bit tongue in cheek.
You know, I haven’t seen anyone report on the families panel from Caps Con. I didn’t go to it either, and would love to hear about it.
"It's always good to have vikings."
I went to that one and loved it – really great stuff from the families. No mention of that kind of thing, but I was especially interested in what Rachel Fehr had to say. The others had interesting perspectives, too, but she was the only one who lives with the NHL day-to-day stuff.
For example, she talked about how she won’t schedule work for a week after deadline day, because if Eric gets traded she needs to be able to pack and go. And she discussed the summer of ’09 when she basically had to be at Eric’s side constantly or get a "babysitter" if she wanted to go anywhere because for awhile he couldn’t do anything.
Also, Knuble’s brother is basically his clone, they look exactly alike. Plus it sounded like he was his brother’s biggest fan – I think he was super excited to be at CapsCon.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Thanks. I forget which panel was opposite it, maybe the rookie one? Whatever, I was at the other one.
"It's always good to have vikings."
It was the fighting one w/ King and Chimmer. Y’all were noisy :P But it was great. Carlson’s mom was good, too, she said that he used to be a really intense, emotional, competitive kid – but now he’s kind of mellowed, although the competitive streak is alive and well.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I got to the panel late.
The discussions of injuries was interesting. Knuble’s brother talked about what the family went through in the emotional moments after he broke his face. Knuble’s wife was the last to know because she was at an event and the others were trying to figure out how they would break the news to her. He also discussed the shock the family felt the first time Knuble was traded. It seemed to be more traumatic for the family instead of Knuble.
Steckel’s dad touched on the college years.
Some young female had to ask Carlson’s mom if he was single. ~eye roll ~
I would have loved to have heard more about the day-to-day life from Rachel Fehr. namely: end of season closing up the home for the summer, how much she maintains her own schedule/career, and how does she handle the hockey sleep schedule (naps, returning in the wee hours of the morning after away games.
(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)
Some young female had to ask Carlson’s mom if he was single. ~eye roll ~
Could have been the same one who asked the rookies about being homecoming dates. Ugh.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Neither of the two girls who asked about homecoming were the one who asked Carly’s mom if he was single.
At the Coming to America panel, yet another girl asked who are hotter: American girls or the girls from their home countries. Long, awkward silence. Then she stamped her foot and whined, “C’mon.” Finally, Flash ended the standoff by saying something like: Czech girls, because they’re his own (countrywomen). I felt it was a good compromise.
Too many hormonal teenaged girls were embarassing themselves.
(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)
Related to this, an actor friend of mine doesn’t pay attention to online comments, but his circle of friends and family scans things on occasion and bring certain things – especially the amusing comments – to his attention. I would think the players are in a similar situation. Also, the younger ones tend to care/be online more often and as they get older or the novelty wears off, then other things occupy their time.
(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)
Andrew Gordon (my favorite Hershey blogger) addressed the question in a Q&A on RMNB. This is only part of his quote
Meghan H. of The Hockey Chronicles asks, "Gordo, now that you’ve written for a blog, I feel we should ask if you (as some Caps prospects, e.g. Dmitry Kugryshev, have been known to in the past) read blogs and other internet news sources about yourself? Or do you prefer, like many people, to keep away from them (and their often negative) opinions?
Hi Meghan! I personally will read something here and there, but pretty much only if I stumble across it. I will never go buy a newspaper to see what somebody said about me. In all honesty though, I find it’s better to leave the media to the fans and worry about what’s going on inside the dressing room. No matter what you read, I feel it can do you no good as a player.
My assumption is that the players probably don’t read much press coverage, but their friends and families, and the team PR department, might. So I’ve assumed I can comment here as part of an ongoing conversation with other fans, but that my rantings and ravings don’t get back to the players directly :)
Don’t make fun of my obsession over ketchup dispensers ever again! ;) Ted Leonsis
I liked the site on Facebook and Finger Tagged it on YouFace. Any others I’m missing?
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
I gave it a"HOT" on Hot or Not.
I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.
by Rather Bengt on Oct 18, 2010 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Remember when Newscorp blew $580 million on myspace back in 2005? HAH!
For any other company I’d yell… SUCKER!!! But it’s Newscorp so that’s probably a drop in the bucket for them
While interesting, this thread isn’t about hockey any longer, can we take this to OT?
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 9:13 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
RLS’s Fenwick numbers underscore an interesting paradox about this young season. Other than the point %, which is terrific, the team has looked like shit. Not sure I can really explain it, either.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Best explanation is that Neuvirth has played like a worldbeater and that special teams are bailing out the Caps. They’ve also gotten some good bounces, but make no mistake: if they continue to play like this, they’re going to start losing a lot of games.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 9:17 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I read f_d’s comment to be that he can’t explain why they’re playing like shit. Which I agree with. This is not the team I was expecting to see this season, we have yet to see a full 60 minute team effort.
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 18, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I tend to disagree. This is exactly the team I expected. The one that plays down to the level of it’s competition. The one that coasts through long stretchs before turning in the jets late on the game. While that makes watching Caps games exciting, it is frustrating that this team can’t seem to develop that machine like ability to put down the lesser teams and keep them down.
A danger to myself and others on the ice
by can't skate on Oct 18, 2010 9:35 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
they’re going to start losing a lot of games
I’m not sure I agree with that. They won’t win 4 out of 5 but I think that this team is proving that they can beat a lot of teams their best stuff. Like a pitcher in baseball, just grinding and keeping “it” close is an important skill to have. They need to be better but they continue to show that they can win even without every piston firing and I’m happy to see that.
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
The problem with that mindset is that when say, you’re up 3-1 and coming back to try and clinch on your home ice you don’t do it.
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
What a great memory to start the week with!
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 18, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey, if they won’t take the message on their t-shirt to heart, who will?
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately if you or I “Stay Angry” it won’t have much impact on whether the team brings home Cup this year.
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 18, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Right, which brings me to what I was grumbling about in the GDT (being this team’s lack of 60 minute performances), and how it’s not changed. So far, anyway.
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Missed the game, and therefore the GDT, for a wedding. But it sounds like I didn’t miss much, unfortunately.
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 18, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t love that we’re back to this stuff…but I’m trying not to let it bug me because it’s so early in the year and there’s a lot of stuff that can be ironed out.
They didn’t play down to their opponents last year as much as they did the year before (until the playoffs, but even then they waited 4 games to start) and I thought they got better last year, particularly as the year went on, at establishing dominance early and then clamping down.
Honestly as long as things are still rusty with the top line and the D is still banged up, I’m willing to give them a bit of a pass because the fact is we ARE only 5 games in, and just because they’ve done things like this before doesn’t mean they will again. They’re winning while playing less than great hockey and I fully expect them to find their groove and start winning while playing great hockey.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
They didn’t play down to their opponents last year as much as they did the year before (until the playoffs, but even then they waited 4 games to start) and I thought they got better last year, particularly as the year went on, at establishing dominance early and then clamping down.
For all we complained about the Caps in 2008-2009, they were really, really good. Their score tied Corsi% was in the whereabouts of 54%, which is Detroit-esque. Last season it was under 52%. While the Caps may have played down, on average in 2008-2009 they seemed to control the play better (and in 2007-2008 even better).
Last season the story all season long seemed to be poor efforts through 40 minutes, if not longer, followed by a frantic 3rd. The Caps were one of the best teams 1 goal down (and I think THE best 2 goals and 3 goals down), but they definitely seemed to play down with the score tied or when ahead. That says to me that the potential for greatness is there, but not the urgency or system. I’m open to other interpretations, though.
by red army line on Oct 18, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
A month or two ago I was watching a Bruins game from last year (…because I get bored during the summer, what?) and the NESN guys were commenting about the Caps first period prowess – both that they were the best team when trailing after one and that they so rarely WERE trailing after one.
It felt like the pattern with the Caps last year, as opposed to the year before – and I haven’t cobbled together numbers on this so I could be off, it’s just how it seemed – was that they’d come out guns blazing in the first, relax a little in the second and then turn it back on in the third; more so if their "relaxed" second period led to a lead being blown or at least reduced.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
That’s the way it seemed to me like the season started, but part way through I thought it flip-flopped, slow start, grind out the 2nd, score a bunch of goals in the 3rd to win
LET'S GO CAPS!!!
I almost feel like it flipped during that 14 game win streak. I remember at the beginning of that streak, and prior to it, the Caps would often come hot out of the gate and build a lead. Something changed during that streak, and it seemed that they would be zombies for the first half, flip the switch during the 2nd or at the start of the 3rd, come back and win.
Of course, I could be misremembering. But that seems like when it switched to me.
by BradleyFightingVehicle on Oct 18, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
It definitely did switch during the season. They were initially jumping all over teams in the 1st period, leading the league by a mile in goals in the 1st.
The streak was a direct result of very strong 3rd periods.
You had me at no problem.
Here’s my quick breakdown. The season is ~1200 games long, so I used Game ID 20600 as an arbitrary midpoint-ish game.
Caps first half: .506 Corsi, .492 Fenwick with score tied (ouch!); .509 Fenwick, .524 Corsi overall (could be worse)
Caps second half: .526 Fenwick, .533 Corsi with score tied (solid); .521 Fenwick, .531 Corsi overall (decent)
by red army line on Oct 18, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
No argument. They need to be better, but there are plenty of things to be happy about. The PK, Neuvy. After 5 games, I’m happy to see things that were question marks showing significant improvement.
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
If they didn’t have every piston firing and they were playing teams to a standstill in Evens chances or shooting, or even winning those measures, I’d be a lot more inclined to agree with you. Right now, though, they’re bringing their B game and Neuvy is bailing them out, along with some bounces. That they’re winning after a 3rd period comeback against NSH and an AO 5-hole shot against OTT is cold comfort. I don’t think getting lucky is a repeatable skill and make no mistake, close games have a large element of luck in them.
Besides, at what point were the Caps just hanging in there and grinding? They were getting nailed to the wall for long stretches of the last three games.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 9:51 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I take your point, at my core I’m concerned/frustrated about it. This team is good enough to be dictating the pace of play to everyone that they face.
If you can’t tell, I’m working hard on not being too fatalistic about this team. They are very good, and the fact that they have looked like garbage for long stretches of each game this year they still haven’t “broken” is a comfort, albeit a cold one. The PK, Neuvy, the PP all seem to be questions that are being answered so I’m happy with those bright spots.
And honestly, did you expect them to be completely dominant for 80 out of 100 games this year? I’m happy to let Carlzner and Mackan look a bit rough for games 1-40 and have everything come together from 41-100.
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
For me, it’s like watching a brilliant kid in college – someone who has blown the doors off of placement exams and turned in some brilliant essays. However, when the day-to-day going to class thing starts, they coast by, party at night, sleepwalk through class…then pull all nighter study sessions the night before midterms and finals and squeak by because they ARE that brilliant.
The problem is, the habits of laziness and expecting to be good enough to be ‘good enough’ get ingrained.
It’s frustrating as hell.
There's always more to learn about Hockey.
The other problem is that eventually that brilliant kid gets out of his Freshman year, the work gets harder, and being brilliant isn’t good enough any more. You gotta put the work in.
There comes a point when everyone is really good. It’s those who work hardest that will do best. In hockey that point is the playoffs.
by BradleyFightingVehicle on Oct 18, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, exactly. This is my primary concern with Ovechkin right now.
There's always more to learn about Hockey.
I hear you. I knew plenty of kids who partied all Frosh year, got their asses handed to them grade wise, got angry came back and killed it the next three years. Of course some just stayed on a 4 year bender (in a few cases even longer than that, specifically they ended up on an unanticipated 5 year plan).
You’d hope that Ovie getting it handed to him three times last year (Olympics, Playoffs, World Champs) would inspire him.
Time will tell.
by BradleyFightingVehicle on Oct 18, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Indeed. If anything would make someone buckle down, you’d think that would be it. He needs to learn, and learn it fast, that he’s aging and things take their toll more with each passing year. Especially because he’s had years of NHL hits that he didn’t have when he started.
Also, being called the best player on the planet before you are 25 and after only a year or two in the league can’t be good for a person.
There's always more to learn about Hockey.
I can’t relate to either of the above posts, er, at all. Nope. Not even a little.
Okay fine, that was me. Which makes this doubly frustrating; I know where that attitude and those habits lead. There’s enormous talent on this team, but it isn’t enough at the highest level – the playoffs. Once those roll around, that talent has to be married with hard work and relentless consistency to amount to anything of note. Not seeing the Caps build those traits when they have the chance is very, very troubling.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 10:37 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree, I feel like most us know where this leads. This has to be especially frustrating to someone like Knuble who has been around and seen it before too.
Have we identified which former player said the team still had some growing up to do? Because learning not to get by on talent and ability alone is a huge part of that growing process. Maybe they were on to something.
by BradleyFightingVehicle on Oct 18, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I really really miss Federov right now. Who in the locker room is respected and seasoned and old enough to get the kids to listen?
There's always more to learn about Hockey.
I must be chopped liver.
Signed,
M. Knuble
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Knuble’s cup was from when he was a young relatively minor player on Detroit, whereas Feds has been a major player/leader on a Cup/Final team on multiple occasions.
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 18, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
So you have to have a ring to be respected in a locker room? Yeah, not buying it.
Let’s stop riding this romance for another Russian to help the young Russians and realize there’s 20 other people in the room that might not identify with Feds, right or wrong.
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Agree. This team is AO’s and (to a lesser extent) Backstrom’s. They will set the tone and the pace for the rest of the team, period.
I don’t know what’s wrong with those two, but they haven’t looked themselves at all this year. I don’t know if AO is really out of shape, or injured, or just easing into the season. He’s getting his points, but he certainly hasn’t been the possession and territorial dominance machine that we’ve known in the past.
I similarly have zero idea what is up with Baxter. The zone starts don’t help, but they don’t explain everything either.
Specifically on Knuble, he’s been invisible for the most part, but his execution of his designated role assumes that his linemates carry the water in terms of possession and shots, which they haven’t.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
This team is AO’s
That’s what I was getting at. I don’t see Ovi going to Knubs for advice, but I could see him going to Feds.
All this aside though, I’d take Knubs over Feds right now any day of the week.
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 18, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s what I was getting at. I don’t see Ovi going to Knubs for advice, but I could see him going to Feds.
If the North American-Russian thing is close to legit, it’s something that’s got to be overcome. He’s got to kick the pants of the room or figure out how. And if he can’t then he should ask a graybeard/coach no matter who it is.
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I dunno.. maybe the team just needs healthy NHL defensemen.
FREE MP
by jordanDC on Oct 18, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Mitchell!!!1
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
One, AO is the Captain, and if he needs to go ask advice to figure out how to lead, they’re in trouble.
Two, AO is all grown up now, and I can’t see him asking advice from a team mate, even if he needed it.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I’m not sure what advice any of these guys would be asking for…
Ovi to Knuble: “So, how win Stanely Cup?”
Knuble to Ovi: “Hard work!??!”
It just doesn’t fit.
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
I’m sure Knuble hasn’t learned anything valuable in 14 seasons in the league.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Oct 18, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
If he’s all grown up then he needs to take accountability into his own hands, which he isn’t doing. His play was so defensively irresponsible in Nashville that it nearly cost the team two goals against, single-handedly.
I said this in the GDT but I’m pessimistic that Boudreau or anyone else is willing to get in his face about this.
Or old shoulder issues from the end of last season. Or “big hole in leg” issue from preseason.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
No not at all, and I don’t think Knubs isn’t “respected” in the locker room. Based on snippits it sounds like a lot of the younger guys really do look up to him. I just think Feds’ SCF experience helps, a lot. Especially for someone like Ovi.
"Do you see my fist? It was fists like these that built quaint Canadian cities out of the harsh Canadian wilderness, etc. etc."
Not in Seattle anymore.
by SeattleCapsFan on Oct 18, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I wasn’t thinking of Feds’ rings or his nationality. I was thinking of his character.
There's always more to learn about Hockey.
So if you’re thinking about character, why doesn’t Knuble fit that bill?
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I also think that Feds was an important piece of that puzzle, but Yzerman was the glue that held it together. Feds didn’t have to worry about being a leader because it was Steve’s team.
I didn’t think that Feds really provided that “leadership” intangible when he was here… but I do miss him as second line center.
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
On point. Always thought Feds’ leadership was a bit overrated while here, largely because there wasn’t any other experienced name player on the roster who fit the bill.
The ice will show everything.
by cuqui on Oct 18, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree. Feds even said that he didn’t want to actively lead/advise. The difference with Feds is that he was a legend to Ovie and Sasha. If he spoke, they woud listen. Also, he knew how to speak in that allegorical Russian manner that resonated with them.
Additionally, because of his legendary status, Sasha also said he learned just by watching Feds. I don’t see Sasha looking up to North Americans or other Europeans in the same way.
(Yes, I know about the avatar hounding - just pretend mine is invisible.)
Didn’t Laich tell Boudreau how much Feds affected the whole team, which is one reason they brought him back? I thought I read that somewhere, maybe Bruce’s book.
I remember reading about how Feds used some Russian analogy to calm Varly down before his very first game in Montreal.
Sorry, but I just have to laugh at this. There’s no team in the NHL that doesn’t want veteran, Stanley Cup Dynasty member, HOF lock players, and nominees for sainthood on it. But to say that the Caps don’t have anybody else that WILL be listened to because they aren’t those things is just plain insulting to everybody on the team.
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I really really miss Federov right now. Who in the locker room is respected and seasoned and old enough to get the kids to listen?
I can believe that you didn’t mean it that way, but it’s hard to see anything else reading the above quote.
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Dunny-on-the-World
I was looking at it from a personality perspective, but I see how I could’ve worded it differently.
There's always more to learn about Hockey.
There’s no team in the NHL that doesn’t want veteran, Stanley Cup Dynasty member, HOF lock players, and nominees for sainthood on it.
Then why did Detroit tell Sergei not to let the doorknob hit him on the ass on the way to Anaheim (then go on to keep dominating)? Why did Anaheim ship him off to Columbus (and then get better)? Why did Columbus trade him to us for a used puck-bag?
I’m sorry, but all this Sergei Fedorov-love around here smacks of rose-colored glasses and a lack of awareness about the guy’s history. The idea that Feds was some great locker-room leader is patently absurd.
His only “contribution” in that regard was likely his ability to connect to the Russian contingent, and we’ve all seen what a lasting positive effect he’s had on Ovie and Sasha.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Oct 18, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Well said. Pure skill is worth a lot and that I miss but let’s not remember Feds as a Messier/Yzerman type lockerroom presence that wills his team to victory.
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
Fedorov was here parts of two seasons, during which the Capitals relied less on the rush and shooting/saving luck than they did when Fedorov left last season.
I agree his locker-room-presence-ness is overdone sometimes, but at the end of the day we don’t know what happened. I could easily see that his presence somehow caused the team to, quite frankly, play better [Corsi hockey].
by red army line on Oct 18, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree his locker-room-presence-ness is overdone sometimes, but at the end of the day we don’t know what happened. I could easily see that his presence somehow caused the team to, quite frankly, play better [Corsi hockey].
His presence helped because he was good at key faceoffs and didn’t give the puck away unnecessarily. (Kozlov was also good at puck possession.) Another reason I think his Corsi stats looked good was because whenever he was beat, he just took a penalty. (Kidding. Sorta.)
The notion of Feds as some locker-room guru is just laughable. He didn’t improve Anaheim or Columbus, and he was often a divisive figure in Detroit. His talent helped the Caps – that’s it.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
There’s no team in the NHL that doesn’t want veteran, Stanley Cup Dynasty member, HOF lock players, and nominees for sainthood on it.
Then why did Detroit tell Sergei not to let the doorknob hit him on the ass on the way to Anaheim (then go on to keep dominating)?
Not arguing with your point, per se, but…the Wings could afford to part with a veteran Cup-winner because they had about eleventy billion. And Feds as he got older became a great leader, first to the Russian kids in Columbus and then to our guys – particularly Semin – while he was here.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Feds as he got older became a great leader, first to the Russian kids in Columbus and then to our guys – particularly Semin – while he was here.
To quote Sheila Broflovsky: What, what WHAT?!?!?!
Feds was a malcontent, and he “led” those Russian players so well that the two top Russians on the BJ’s. . . headed the eff back to Russia. Filatov and Zherdev are exactly how I hope our young Russians turn out. . .
Anaheim sure didn’t seem to miss his leadership at all after they shipped him out, either.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
All I know is what I heard from friends who are BJ fans – that he was actually pretty good with them. Doesn’t mean he changed them completely and made them capable to play in the NHL, nor is he the reason they both left…that’s a LOT of pressure and blame to place on a guy when the coach is Ken Hitchcock.
But really all I know is what I saw here, and he seemed to be a good influence on the Russians, while a lot of the non-Russians talked about his leadership and how much they admired him. None of us know what he was like in the locker room here or on any other team for that matter.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Yeah, but did his influence or leadership leave any lasting tangible change in either case? It seems to me that it didn’t. Maybe I’m putting too much pressure on him viz Zherdev and Filatov, but if you’re going to point out his leadership, I’m going to point out that the players he was mentoring didn’t adjust all that well to the NHL.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
All I really know, to be honest, is what I saw of him here, and he came across as a great leader. I think he had slowed down a lot on the ice and probably wouldn’t have been a great fit if he’d decided to stay rather than hightail it to Russia, but watching the other players on the team around him and watching them talk about him, there was a sense of…awe, is really all I can think of to describe it.
And I know we rag on Semin for taking penalties at bad times (and it’s a legit beef) but since Feds got here and even after he left, he’s at least taken fewer stupid penalties and seemed more focused during 91’s tenure.
And I’d never pretend that Feds was an all-knowing role model for the Russians in C-Bus…but Filatov, at least, has talked about Hitchcock being the reason for his departure.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
You’re right that Filatov and Hitch didn’t mesh, but you missed the obvious point.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I don’t think I did, actually, but please feel free to explain it.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Filatov and Fedorov were never Blue Jackets together. How could Fedorov be criticized for failing to mentor a player he never played with?
Fedorov joined the Caps in February 2008. Filatov was drafted in June 2008.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Oh, that. I had merely mentioned Feds w/ the Russian kids in general, not Filatov specifically – D’oh brought him up so I assumed he was there, as well, forgot he was drafted so recently.
But as I understand it, Feds and Zherdev were pretty close – that was my point, that what I’d heard was he was good with Zherdev and a lot of the non-Russian kids in Cbus, as well. His issue with the team was that the system was wrong for him, but he never seemed to be a malcontent while there.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
You can’t really bring Filatov into the conversation, so it’s really just Zherdev.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I don’t know if Filatov is or isn’t a headcase. He’s looked good so far this year and I could easily see him having a solid career. It may just be that Hitchcock was the absolute wrong coach for him.
And just for kicks, Fedorov spent almost as much time playing with Datsyuk as Zherdev.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Well, there’s a reason I didn’t write the word, “Federov” in my post. I was taking issue with the idea that in order to get respect from “kids” one HAS to be super human.
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Dunny-on-the-World
Oh. Ok. I thought you were implying that everyone would want Feds on their team.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
(Pet peeve from when he was here, Fedorov, not Federov.)
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I wasn’t thinking of Feds’ rings or his nationality. I was thinking of his character.
This statement kills me, because there are a lot of fans in Detroit, Anaheim and Columbus who would read this statement exactly the opposite way you intend it.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
The problem is, the habits of laziness and expecting to be good enough to be ‘good enough’ get ingrained.
I agree, and I do think it’s frustrating, but at the same time these guys don’t seem to be all that happy with their performance, either. If they were talking after games about how they stuck together and really pounded out a win…I’d be concerned. As it stands, a lot of the quotes I’m hearing are “we got outworked”, “Neuvy bailed us out”, etc. And yes, they’re just words, but there are so many things that are still rusty.
Hell, Toronto and Dallas are the only unbeaten teams right now. If nothing else says “it’s so damn early in the season”, that does.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
True that. I think I’m still sore from the playoff disappointment.
There's always more to learn about Hockey.
I think we all are, and that’s okay. We just need to not let that color how we approach these games – and I include myself in that, because I had to remind myself to breathe a few times Saturday night (and took great pleasure in bashing the forwards for their crappy play in the recap).
Some more perspective for all of us: the Caps played what was probably their best game of the year last year, a game that combined offensive skill, defensive responsibility, great goaltending and special teams success…in Game 1 of the season. And we saw what happened. I wouldn’t feel any less confident – or any more pessimistic, for that matter – if that’s the way they had started this season, because it’s a looooong season.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
were you stalking me through college? I wouldn’t call myself brilliant, but good portions of that sound familiar
LET'S GO CAPS!!!
heh. Depends, when were you in college and where did you go? ;-P
No, I don’t seriously expect you to answer that.
There's always more to learn about Hockey.
I pretty much coasted college, I’ll be honest. I did my homework and shit, but I didn’t agonize over anything.
by DrinkingPartner on Oct 18, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
This team is good enough to be dictating the pace of play to everyone that they face.
This is where I’m not sure I agree.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
They’d be closer with healthy Poti and healthy Green. I’m pretty sure this is more the reason the team has looked a little flat than some leadership abyss that we all like to speculate about so much here.
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by jordanDC on Oct 18, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Isolate that.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
How so?
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
We’re currently playing five regulars who are 22 or younger and have minimal NHL experience.
Our bottom defensive pairing currently consists of two guys who belong in the AHL.
Our second-line center is a candy-assed winger.
Our third-line center is 20.
Our best line on a consistent basis has been our third line, which only gets about 10-12 minutes of ES TOI/Game.
The Caps will improve and they shouldn’t be as bad as they’ve looked thus far. I anticipated some rough patches given all the youth in key positions and the Flash experiment. What really concerns me is that it’s not just the young guys screwing up. Our top line is getting dominated when they’re on the ice. That’s not a good sign, seeing as we’ve got over a third of our cap space tied up in that line.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Oct 18, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Boston game is going to be interesting, as the B’s are a step up in weight class from NYI, OTT, NSH and the depleted NJD. Boston has the guns to hurt the Caps if they get dominated territorially again.
We’ll see. At this point I’d like to see some baby steps. As I noted before, I can live with the occasional tepid effort, but I would like to see some improvement out of the top line sooner rather than later.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I’d argue that Alfredsson, Spezza, Kovalchuk and Parise are considerably more dangerous than anything the B’s forwards can throw at the Caps.
I’m nervous about this game for other reasons and I think Boston can be tough if we’re going in w/ a depleted lineup – but let’s not get carried away and say that Boston’s any more dangerous than the teams the Caps have played when it comes to territorial dominance.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
But the drop-off from those guys to their depth players is huge, whereas Boston’s deeper down the lineup.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Same could be said for Nashville (with a much better and more offensively-minded D to back them up) and to some extent the Isles. Again I think this game could be trouble, but I just don’t think Boston has the firepower up front – or the firepower in back – to sustain too much pressure.
I could definitely be wrong, though. It’s happened more often than I can count.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Boston was actually an excellent territorial team last season and shot very low percentages. They have the guys to hurt you, just no one that’s going to threaten forty regularly. Horton’s got the talent, but I see him as a 30-35 guy more than a 40.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Point taken, my statement was a bit broad.
That said, even with all of the issues that you highlight they are good enough to dominate for 60 minutes against anyone that they face up against. I’m going back to years past where even with great performances by the entire team they couldn’t go out and dictate play to everyone in the league. There were teams that just were that much better than everyone in a red(black) sweater.
Even though their rookies are rookies, and Flash isn’t a 2C… they can dictate play when it all comes together. Its a different question of whether they can/do because they are mailing it in.
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
by Sct112 on Oct 18, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Even though their rookies are rookies, and Flash isn’t a 2C… they can dictate play when it all comes together. Its a different question of whether they can/do because they are mailing it in.
This is exactly what I was trying to say below.
by red army line on Oct 18, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
even with all of the issues that you highlight they are good enough to dominate for 60 minutes against anyone that they face up against.
Without Green and Poti in the lineup, this team would have to play out of its freaking mind to dominate for 60 minutes against even a decent opponent.
Even with them in the lineup, this team as currently constructed is going to struggle for long stretches 5v5.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Sorry, this strikes me as a time to say Caps fans are a bit spoiled at the moment and your expectations are too high. For precisely the reasons you outlined, it’s okay not to be playing dominating hockey right now, especially since it’s been 5 games (as…BP?…reminded us so frequently the other day).
Everything I’ve seen suggests that the Capitals are as good as anyone when they’ve turned it on—I mentioned elsewhere that they were in Chicago’s stratosphere when down 2 or 3 goals, and I could try and (IMO) reasonably speculate why they were so far below Chicago when only down 1. It’s just they simply don’t play as well as they can, it seems to me. Whether that’s intensity, or system, or personnel…I’d put most of the blame on the 2nd, then 3rd, then 1st.
In other words, the Caps give us frequent glimpses that they’re really good—even last year, and this year they’re arguably icing a better team. It’s just that they can’t perform in all facets of the game as well as when trailing, for example. Why, we speculate all the time.
We’re currently playing five regulars who are 22 or younger and have minimal NHL experience.
I’ve been trying to think about why the experience argument (especially in light of Peerless’ posts over the summer) seems funny to me, and I think I got the answer.
I don’t buy the experience argument. You’re either good enough or you’re not. Veterans tend to be better, especially on the blueline, than very young players, but that doesn’t mean that you should avoid dressing Carlznerson, Varlavirth, and MarJo, because they’re all good players already. It’s the correlation/causation thing—success correlates to experience because both are correlated to flat out being a good hockey player or group of hockey players, I think.
I have a feeling swapping Fehr and Laich could make the 2nd line look a lot better. Fehr/Semin should be able to mask Flash, and BB will be forced to shelter MarJo (as he should, but hasn’t thus far).
by red army line on Oct 18, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, this strikes me as a time to say Caps fans are a bit spoiled at the moment and your expectations are too high.
What I said has absolutely nothing to do with expectations and, as a matter of fact, the expectations I had were that this team was going to struggle to start the season. I’m not spoiled, I’m just not delusional enough to think that a team with one decent center and four decent defensemen, two of whom are rookies, is going to be able to dominate for 60 minutes consistently.
It’s just they simply don’t play as well as they can, it seems to me. Whether that’s intensity, or system, or personnel…I’d put most of the blame on the 2nd, then 3rd, then 1st.
I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say here. If they’re not playing up to their potential, how can it be a matter of personnel/talent?
If I had to wager a guess, I’d say that the Caps’ problem stems in large part from their strength, which is just an overwhelming amount of talent. There are many players on the Caps who are used to “flipping the switch” and winning games. They get into that habit and it gets reinforce because they get away with it… because they’re so talented. The problem is, the enemy has a vote in this one, and if the Caps continue to get out-worked, they’ll eventually run into teams that are almost as talented, but much more focused, and they’ll lose.
this year they’re arguably icing a better team.
Maybe come April. Right now, this team is not as good as last year’s team post-Clark-Chimera trade.
I don’t buy the experience argument. You’re either good enough or you’re not. Veterans tend to be better, especially on the blueline, than very young players, but that doesn’t mean that you should avoid dressing Carlznerson, Varlavirth, and MarJo, because they’re all good players already. It’s the correlation/causation thing—success correlates to experience because both are correlated to flat out being a good hockey player or group of hockey players, I think.
Experience matters. There’s a reason players get better as they age (until their late 20s). Watch as Johansson gets repeatedly tooled in the faceoff dot by more experienced players and then tell me experience doesn’t matter.
The inexperience of Alzner, Carlson, and Johansson is going to cause us some headaches this year. However, you’ve inferred an argument that I never made, namely that we shouldn’t dress these players. I didn’t say that, and I’m not implying it. I’m happy to keep dressing these players in the knowledge that they’re acquiring experience that they’ll need later on. That doesn’t mean that the Caps won’t suffer for it in the short run, just as they’re going to suffer while trying to figure out whether Tomas Fleischmann can actually hack it as a #2C.
The larger point is that this team, as presently constructed, isn’t good enough to dominate consistently for 60 minutes. It just isn’t. The Caps are thin down the middle and have two guys getting regular defensive minutes who are just God-awful. If Flash plays 10+ minutes 5v5 a night, there are going to be about 9 minutes and 30 seconds at a minimum where the Caps aren’t dominating.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Oct 18, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Was this entire thing in context of the injuries the team already has? #!, I should have pressed up a few more times.
I’m just not delusional enough to think that a team with one decent center and four decent defensemen, two of whom are rookies, is going to be able to dominate for 60 minutes consistently.
One fantastic center, two stud wingers and several other solid wingers, and three solid defensemen minimum. Injuries only reduces the last one to one. It is a big difference thus far, but not something that can’t be worked around (see 2007-2008 Caps).
I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say here. If they’re not playing up to their potential, how can it be a matter of personnel/talent?
Single players not playing up to that level (e.g. Flash, Laich and Semin at times).
Maybe come April. Right now, this team is not as good as last year’s team post-Clark-Chimera trade.
I would say it is, on paper. Whether they play like they are on paper is a different matter. I can’t think of a reason why they wouldn’t other than what’s already been discussed—complacency, inconsistency, coaching, etc. I don’t think it’s lack of chemistry or anything.
Experience matters. There’s a reason players get better as they age (until their late 20s). Watch as Johansson gets repeatedly tooled in the faceoff dot by more experienced players and then tell me experience doesn’t matter.
See this:
You’re either good enough or you’re not.
Young players can be excellent on draws. Veterans can be poor. Maybe it’s semantics, but I’m certainly putting this under the “Marjo isn’t good enough” label.
The larger point is that this team, as presently constructed, isn’t good enough to dominate consistently for 60 minutes. It just isn’t. The Caps are thin down the middle and have two guys getting regular defensive minutes who are just God-awful.
Disagreed. This is exactly the case in 2007-2008 post-Hanlon and pre-deadline as far as I can remember. Knee high has already outlined why ShaMo is actually a pretty bad defenseman, and Erskine, Jurcina, and Eminger were getting a sweater fairly regularly. You could make cases that since then everyone in the lineup has gotten better.
It’s not that they can’t dominate because they don’t have the talent, speed, depth, whatever. It’s that they just…don’t.
by red army line on Oct 18, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
One fantastic center, two stud wingers and several other solid wingers, and three solid defensemen minimum.
When your main problem is lack of puck possession and an inability to clear your defensive zone, the blame falls disproportionately on the centers and the defensemen. The Caps are, to a certain degree, built in the “wrong” way – our strength is down the sides, not up the middle. The 07-08 Caps had Nylander and Fedorov at center, who were miles better than Flash/MarJo.
Single players not playing up to that level (e.g. Flash, Laich and Semin at times).
At what point does it stop being potential and just start being who that player is? Do we still think Alex Kovalev has “potential” because he’s ludicrously talented, or do we simply accept that he’s a headcase and that he’s never going to fully exploit his talent on a consistent basis?
I would say it is, on paper.
This is where we disagree. Last year’s team had Flash the winger who was better than Flash the center. BMo the C + Flash the W was better than Flash the C and MarJo the C. MarJo may improve as the season wears on, but right now, we’re worse up front. The only improvement we’ve made is the addition of Hendricks, but that’s so marginal as to be pretty meaningless.
On defense, we’re undoubtedly worse. ShaMo blew, you’ll get no disagreement here. But ShaMo, Juice and Pothier were all NHL-caliber defensemen. Erskine and Sloan most clearly are not. Not by the eyes nor by the stats. Last year, when we took injuries on the backline, we had NHL-caliber players to fill in, and NHL-caliber call-ups available from Hershey. Talent-wise, Alzner and Carlson are clearly better than the guys they replaced, but they’re 22 and 21, respectively. They are going to have stretches of inconsistent play and, given how much the Caps are depending upon them, that’s going to affect the Caps’ consistency as a whole. ’
You’re either good enough or you’re not. Young players can be excellent on draws. Veterans can be poor.
Take two centers of equal skill and put them on opposite sides of a faceoff dot. The one with more experience taking faceoffs will win 60% of his draws. There are things you learn about different opponents, different linesmen, etc.
The idea that experience doesn’t matter just doesn’t hold water. The talent differential in the NHL isn’t as big as you might imagine, and the talent proportion of some skill (such as faceoffs) is pretty small.
ShaMo is actually a pretty bad defenseman, and Erskine, Jurcina, and Eminger were getting a sweater fairly regularly.
First, Eminger last received a regular Caps sweater in 06-07. He was a healthy scratch for most of 07-08. That out of the way, every guy you list with the exception of Erskine is a legit NHL defenseman. They may not be world-beaters, but they’re decent. Add Pothier to that list and suddenly, the Caps were 8 deep – add Alzner and Carlson in Hershey and the Caps were 10-deep.
Now take away Jurcina, ShaMo and Pothier. We’re left with two talented rookies and two guys who don’t belong in the NHL. There are going to be nights where we look like crap. Hopefully, with time the rookies will come around, and GMGM will turn up an NHL-caliber defenseman to play instead of Erskine at some point.
None of this takes away from the fact that this Caps team, on paper, has some ginormous holes, and those holes are getting exposed right now.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Oct 18, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Experience most certainly helps make a player better, but I think the point is that you can have no experience and still be a better player than experienced players just on talent. Would you take Duchy or BMo? Obviously that’s an extreme, but I’m just trying to illustrate the point quickly. Duchy with experience will be better than Duchy with no experience, but right now, with limited experience, Duchy is better than a whole shitload of NHL Cs with much more experience. I think that’s what RAL meant when he said you’re either good enough or you aren’t.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
The 07-08 Caps had Nylander and Fedorov at center, who were miles better than Flash/MarJo.
I had written above post-Nylander and pre-deadline (pre-Fedorov). Granted, that’s only around 2 months (if that), but a pretty good two months for the Capitals. That team was even weaker down the middle and arguably played excellent hockey nonetheless—my quick math is getting a 56.2 Fenwick% from these numbers (last game of Dec 2007 to game before the 4-0 whitewashing of NJ, Huet/Feds’ Caps debuts).
At what point does it stop being potential and just start being who that player is? Do we still think Alex Kovalev has "potential" because he’s ludicrously talented, or do we simply accept that he’s a headcase and that he’s never going to fully exploit his talent on a consistent basis?
At a team level, for two years the Caps played great, we-don’t-need-no-luck hockey. At an individual level, players were all over the place. I’m not sure if I ever connected potential with individual players; sorry if I did. Potential—>team. Individual players…the issues are well documented.
This is where we disagree. Last year’s team had Flash the winger who was better than Flash the center. BMo the C + Flash the W was better than Flash the C and MarJo the C. MarJo may improve as the season wears on, but right now, we’re worse up front. The only improvement we’ve made is the addition of Hendricks, but that’s so marginal as to be pretty meaningless.
BMo wasn’t even 2C by February, or possibly even January. It was Flash or Laich, I think, and Perreault at times. At worst the Caps downgraded at one center spot, while their top center, who plays much more, got better (we can be pretty sure). I can’t see this as anything much less than a wash. Then factor in that Fehr, Chimera, and Flash should be better, among others, and the balance starts to swing the other way.
Last year, when we took injuries on the backline, we had NHL-caliber players to fill in, and NHL-caliber call-ups available from Hershey.
In 2008-2009, the Caps took a ton of injuries, and didn’t seem any the worse for wear, even when 4 blueliners a game were Hershey call-ups. Many of the same players are still there. It should be something that BB can work around short-term. It is something that BB has worked around short-term.
Take two centers of equal skill and put them on opposite sides of a faceoff dot. The one with more experience taking faceoffs will win 60% of his draws. There are things you learn about different opponents, different linesmen, etc.
F&B is correct, above. Experience makes you better, but you can better or worse in the first place. Take Jonathan Toews (ahead of his years) or Evgeni Malkin/Andrew Cogliano (behind their years, as young as they are) or even someone like Viktor Kozlov who at times played lots of center.
Point is, games played in the NHL totals and related information to me does not make a player more attractive or less attractive as an asset. I can buy playoff games played (given good results in those games), but that’s it.
First, Eminger last received a regular Caps sweater in 06-07. He was a healthy scratch for most of 07-08.
He played 20 games, plus the playoffs, especially between Feds and Nyls.
add Alzner and Carlson in Hershey and the Caps were 10-deep.
I was talking about 07-08 there.
My point is that similar issues have come up before. The BB and GMGM-led Caps have handled them before without missing a beat. I’d not confident they’ll do so again, but I also don’t think it’s ludicrous to think that it’s very possible that they get everything fixed very quickly without any acquisitions, even if the injury situation stays the same.
by red army line on Oct 18, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
especially since it’s been 5 games (as…BP?…reminded us so frequently the other day).
If it’s my comment from the GDT, that was in reference to Game 5 of the ECF. Had a bit of drink that day, so apologies for vagueness.
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I read it as that initially, but it fit in pretty well with “this is just the fifth game, ya know” type of sentiment that seemed to be present as well.
by red army line on Oct 18, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Besides, at what point were the Caps just hanging in there and grinding? They were getting nailed to the wall for long stretches of the last three games.
They’re doing a fair bit of grinding it out, I’d say. Not enough, but that’s not really this team. If they do it at all I consider it an improvement. Take for example the Nashville game – it was awful to start but started to even out in the 2nd, and then by the third they were outshooting and outchancing the Predators. They definitely spent more time in the Nashville end in the final 30 minutes, or at least they seemed to in my eyes (b/c I have a feeling you’ll find some obscure stat somewhere to prove me wrong :P).
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No, they were definitely in the black after about the 35 minute mark, but there was really no grinding. Only outstanding play by the goalie stopped that game from being 3 or 4 nothing at the end of the second. Even up to that point though, I saw a lot of lazy neutral zone and defensive zone play.
It’d be one thing if we were seeing effort and battles on the boards, but its been lazy stickwaving and HHT penalties during those bad stretches. That’s not hanging in there, that’s just poor play and relying on the goalie. Neuvy’s been the best Cap this season beyond any doubt and Schultz is probably next in line.
The forwards need to get their shit in gear and the whole team, other than 55 and 52, needs to get its play figured out in their own end. They’re getting killed trying to break out of the zone and they’re blowing a lot of coverages. Count how many times the Islanders dig the puck out of the corner and put a pass into the low slot to an uncovered stick. It happens 4 times in the first 5 minutes, culminating the the Nino goal. AO got worked by Shea Weber coming down from the point. There looks like a lot of chasing behind the net and leaving the slot open from both D and a couple of non-blond centers.
It’s all fixable stuff and the player talent is there, but is the coaching staff up to fixing it?
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 10:31 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
I totally agree that they’re getting pinned into their own zone more than I’d like, and the culpability for that lies with everyone from the top line to the bottom D pair. I do think they’ll adjust, though, and they’re aware of it – Erskine was on WFED’s postgame show on Wednesday (?) and talked a lot about that. Whether they fix it and the coaching staff enforces it…who knows.
Just think they need to settle in, and waiting for the forwards to settle in while having big injuries on the blue line right away hasn’t helped.
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FWIW, Corey is reporting that all 23 players on the Caps’ roster are on the ice together for the first time this season. Guess this practice was rather un-optional.
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but is the coaching staff up to fixing it?
Great question. I was watching something on NHLN about Yzerman and he credits Bowman for shifting his mentality from a dangling offense first player to a guy that scored by playing great defense. That defense is what got him all of those Cups. I honestly don’t know if Bruce has that shutdown gene in his body. Guess we’ll have to wait and see.
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I don’t think they do (or at least won’t for a little while). The team continues to give up more SOG with each year under his system, and the only time they haven’t given up more than 30 so far was to an Islanders team missing a bunch of forward talent. I hope they lock it down, but I think the system + rookie greenness won’t lend itself to consistent complete efforts, barring locker room epiphany.
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the system + rookie greenness won’t lend itself to consistent complete efforts
I’m still holding out hope (in memory of 2007-2008 and 2008-2009), but I tend to agree with you. Unfortunately, inconsistent efforts are almost certainly a recipe for disaster.
by red army line on Oct 18, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
While my heart doesn’t want too, my head agrees with you. I’m hanging my hat on the greenness of the defense/mackan and flash being the 2nd center being a largest contributor to any struggles so far. The team will continue to struggle to break a solid forecheck while Erskine/Alzner/Mackan/Carlson/Flash/(insert Sub from Hershey) are starting the break out.
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I don’t think Flash is bad a quarterbacking the offense, but rather at getting the puck in the first place. In more than just a couple of instances I’ve thought “man, Flash looks really good out there, passing through the neutral zone.”
by red army line on Oct 18, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Now THIS I can agree with! He plays much, much better with the puck than away from it. This is not a good attribute for a center, particularly not a 2C on a team with Cup aspirations. However, when the puck is on his stick, #14 has been making more good decisions with each game.
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I honestly don’t know if Bruce has that shutdown gene in his body.
Yup — I’ll start to believe that Boudreau has some idea about how to coach defense the day he overhauls the penalty kill and it starts to have some success…
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 19, 2010 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Brent Johnston is going pretty well in Pburg so far. Oh the guilt of having a reason to cheer for Pittsburg
Easily remedied by not cheering for Pittsburgh.
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by Hang a Laingtern on Your Problems on Oct 18, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
The numbers pulled in the Insider-squared post were pretty interesting. It’s too bad we can’t see what’s driving what between the two, though.
I don’t think you can while looking at separate players, but you might be able to glean information by looking at the same player year over year.
I’ve seen it batted around that a faceoff in a goal-end worth about 1/4 of a Corsi event – that’s a lot of Corsi events if we’re talking about 800 F/Os a season. We know how particular players affect shooting percentage while they’re on the ice and how often they figure into scoring while they’re on the ice. QualComp probably rises even in the exogenous sense, so they probably take a hit there, too.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 9:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don’t think you can while looking at separate players, but you might be able to glean information by looking at the same player year over year.
That was my initial reaction, but I wonder if you’d ever be able to control for other factors to the point you could make the determination as to how big a difference zone start makes. Between players changing teams, ability changing with age, injuries, etc, it seems like it’d be awfully hard to get a usable data set.
I guess that depends on your threshold for usable, heh. With the tools we have available being so limited, I’d settle for points in the right direction and gives a ballpark in degree of difference.
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by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 9:54 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I was watching the post game show to CAL-EDM on HNIC Saturday Night and on After Hours they had Alex Tanguay as a guest. He seems like a personable chap. And I don’t know why, but I was kinda floored Tanguay is only 31 years old. For some reason, he seems to have been in the league forever.
Although he is inconsistent, he played nicely on Saturday. (Not to be read as an endorsement for I want him on the Caps)
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CGY EDM
The folks over in the Oilogosphere think Jarome Iginla had a dominating game, getting matched up against the Penner/Gagne/Hemsky line and destroying it. All three of those guys are pretty damn legit players, especially Ales Hemsky. If Iggy is back to eating competition like that, then look for a bounceback year from 12, especially when Bourque and Moss return.
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by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 9:43 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Jarome had a very good game. They were lining him up with Tanguay and Jokinen and all three looked good Sat night. Iggy and Tanguay were in synch all night.
On a former Caps note: B-Mo was playing with Niklas Hagman and looked alright out there.
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by Rather Bengt on Oct 18, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Got himself a goal, no less. Way to go, B-Mo!
That was a fun (and slightly strange) game to watch – doesn’t seem to matter how crappy each team is, the Battle of Alberta almost always brings it.
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Definitely. I love watching the late game on HNIC even if Hughson is stuck doing the Leafs games more now.
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by Rather Bengt on Oct 18, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
On CrowdWave, I say nay. It’s cute, but so unnecessary. Also, when I was paying attention to it, the crowd got the questions wrong. If they’re doing anything with it during the intermissions, I haven’t noticed. Either I’m in the concourse, or chatting with someone.
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At the Islanders game on Wednesday, they had the trivia question “which Capital blocked the most shots last year?” Half the audience chose Mike Green. The correct answer (which the guy behind me shouted at everyone in earshot, and then proceeded to inform us all that “he still sucks!”) was Jeff Schultz.
There is something to be said for the wisdom of crowds. I’m not sure there’s much to be said for the wisdom of the Verizon Center crowd.
You must sit in the 420 area, I hear him yelling about Schultz all the time.
The Crowdwave thing is just awkward, you look silly doing it. I don’t see it catching on.
by Capsknewbie on Oct 18, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I detest “polls” about facts which should be accessible to anyone with an Internet connection. And since Ted’s had fixing Internet connectivity at VC an his list of Things To Do, I think we’d be better served with scoreboard instructions on how to look such things up on the Caps website.
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Many thanks for the link, JP.
Unrelated: did anyone see the Backstrom hit on Goc? I missed the hit and can’t find a reply, and I normally wouldn’t care because I don’t know of an unsportsmanlike bone in Nick’s body and doubt there was ill intent, but Trotz was adamant in postgame that he should’ve been ejected. I trust you guys to be pretty even handed, so what happened?
Maybe this helps?
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah
…okay, not really sure what Backstrom was thinking. That essentially had nothing to do with the play.
Hard to tell, really, from that video, but my initial reaction is a major w/ no suspension.
by Chris Burton on Oct 18, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
That is exactly what I thought when I saw the play live. He fell awkwardly and the contact looked unneccessary.
It strikes me as an example of a hit that happens multiple times a game and this one was highlighted by Goc’s fall and injury.
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
All I remember thinking afterward – and commented as such in the recap – was that it was so uncharacteristic for Backstrom, just another weird part of a weird game for him. He doesn’t shy away from big hits, of course, but they’re usually at open ice or more of a normal check along the boards.
Definitely worth a penalty, but I’m torn as to whether it deserved a major…not suspension-worthy, though, if you ask me.
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I replayed it again. It was a dumb penalty by Backs. I thought more interference than anything. Goc was near the puck but didn’t have possetion. Not sure wha Nick was thinking other than perhaps anticipating that Goc would get possesion.
Dont thnk it rose to the level of a suspendable offense in any way. Nick was not going at top speed or out of control at the time. I couldn’t tell from the replay exactly where Goc hurt himself, whether on the boards or the ice or his own guy. It looked like he hit the ice first and may have slid into the boards. Had Goc been a bit closer to the boards it may have warranted a double minor.
Just trying to capture the spirit of the thing...
by dcsportsfan1 on Oct 18, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I was just typing that after finally seeing it last night I thought it was interference as well. So did Koken and Locker, right? Definitely a penalty.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Koken and Locker thought interference; it could have gone either way, but it was definitely a penalty of some sort. He definitely pushed Goc, and Goc went down as a result of the push. Knowing the way the Wheel of Justice spins, I can hope the NHL doesn’t decide it warrants a suspension… but no idea if they will or not.
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It’s sad that the wheel of NHL justice travels such a convoluted path.
A danger to myself and others on the ice
by can't skate on Oct 18, 2010 9:43 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Trotz adamant? You don’t say. I thought he was apoplectic towards the end of the game.
A danger to myself and others on the ice
by can't skate on Oct 18, 2010 9:39 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He always has had that apoplectic look, even when he was coaching the Caps farm hands in Portland back in the 1990s… even when they won the Calder Cup.
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by MikeL-Pivonka on Oct 18, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
He was so angry his neck disappeared.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Naah, he just left it in his other suit.
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I saw it… it was definitely a boarding call… I don’t know if it merits more than they penalty he got. It was pretty rough but considering Nick’s style of play (clean) and his disciplinary history (none) I suspect little, if anything else will come from it.
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by MikeL-Pivonka on Oct 18, 2010 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I could see a game or two if the push had happened closer to the boards. Definitely a borderline play.
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Great work on that breakdown, Chris. I hadn’t seen the play from that angle, but it shows that Backs had basically the entire left half of the ice to himself. Suter and Weber may have recovered there, but two third pair guys like Cube and SOB? Almost a guaranteed chance at that point.
How much of that do you think was mental breakdown and how much do you think was tired legs from 3 games in 4 nights? I know after Goc went out that y’all were basically down to 10 forwards (let’s be real, Wade Belak doesn’t count. He bleeds shots and chances even against shitty opponents and in great situations), so Smithson has something of an excuse, but what about the D? Suter and Weber have skated about 25 a night and Klein/Franson have been the second pair, right? So SOB and Cube should have been comparatively fresh.
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by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 10:22 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Thanks! New feature, so I’m still working the kinks out.
For starters, Suter was in the box – he’s normally a mainstay on the PK. I’m sure the next PK pair would’ve been Klein and Weber, but we didn’t get that far. Klein and Bouillon have actually been the 2nd pair, SOB/Franson the 3rd.
Don’t get me started on Belak. Get well, Marty.
There’s a very good chance Smithson was tired, because he’s the best FO guy on the team and typically outstanding defensively. I’m not sure what tired would’ve had to do with leaving Ovechkin alone, though, that was brutal.
I wasn’t really too upset at Cube, Smithson left him between a rock and a hard place there. O’Brien, on the other hand, is just not a very good hockey player (though better than Parent). I have no idea why Backstrom got so much room.
Under other circumstances, the guys against PP1 in OT for WSH would’ve been Goc, Suter, and Klein. I’d like to believe that chance never gets that far with those personnel. Goc is (and you can tell by looking at advanced numbers) a remarkably good hockey player for his salary, and Suter is Suter.
by Chris Burton on Oct 18, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
It was a good breakdown. I said thanks over there, and will do it here as well.
The goal struck me as a bit of indicision on all the Pred’s parts. The original pass to Backstrom was from Ovi coming up the other side of the ice. That might have contributed to the original spacing breakdown. After all, he’s as likely to carry that puck from end to end as pass it. The other point that I noticed was the decision to attempt to block the point shot. If I were a Preds fan I would rather have seen Laich get tied up, boxed out and Ovi’s shot beat Anders clean than the way the play actually went down.
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
I’ve seen some bag skates (no pucks, just skating and skating and skating) in my day, but as I wrote on Twitter, I’ve never covered anything like I did this morning, and certainly not four games into a brand new season.
Richards opened up the practice by gathering the troops and laying into them for last night, in particular the lack of winning battles. And in a profanity-laced screamfest, he told the team that they’d battle in today’s practice until they “get it.”
I immediately wrote on Twitter to get ready for a nasty practice, and boy, did I swing for the fences and connect with that hanging curveball.
Players nearly came to blows a half-dozen times. Cal Clutterbuck and Justin Falk. Cal Clutterbuck and Guillaume Latendresse. Cam Barker and Kyle Brodziak, who nearly got into it during Wednesday’s practice. The one today, Richards had to break up himself. Greg Zanon and Brad Staubitz, and the loudest of them all, Nick Schultz just lit into Staubitz verbally and for a very long time after one nasty exchange.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 11:01 AM EDT reply actions
I bet Bruce Cassidy could tell him a thing or two about how well the red-faced screaming thing works.
/whistle
“Again”
/whistle
“Again”
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Was Cassidy a screamer? Didn’t know that. He was a horrible coach.
Speaking of rookie coaches, Guy Boucher has had Tampa looking pretty good. I expected his kind-of-weird system to be a flop, but so far I have been wrong, the torching at the hands of FLA notwithstanding.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
They have a good team there in Tampa. A little thin on the back end, but they also have 11 million in cap space.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
The Capitals were outshot by the Devils 41-9 in a 3-0 loss, the first shutout of the season against the Capitals, who have the second-worst record in the NHL. During his postgame remarks, according to sources, Cassidy brought up his players’ families, saying that he did not care if the players had pregnant wives or sick children on their minds and that such issues were no excuse for the way they were playing.
“There was no reason to bring our families into this,” one player said. “That’s crossing the line. It really [upset] a lot of the guys. I can’t believe he said it.”
Many of the Capitals have young families — defenseman Jason Doig’s wife recently gave birth, for example — and some have endured medical hardships recently. Olaf Kolzig’s son, Carson, is autistic. Defenseman Brendan Witt’s wife, Salima, nearly died of sepsis last season after giving birth.
Cassidy’s communication skills have created problems before. He has had heated exchanges with both Witt and Jaromir Jagr during games this season — equipment manager Doug Shearer stepped between Witt and Cassidy to separate them, according to sources. Early last season Cassidy had a spirited argument with forward Dainius Zubrus, and his profanity-laced excoriation of rookie backup goalie Sebastien Charpentier in front of his teammates moments after a loss in Buffalo last Dec. 7 threatened to divide the team. One since-departed veteran planned to verbally challenge Cassidy at the following practice if he did not apologize to Charpentier in front of the entire team, which the coach ended up doing.
He’s not going to be around too much longer.
Think twice before you speak, and then you may be able to say something more insulting than if you spoke right out at once.
Was listening to Power Play on XM last week and they were talking about Richards – they really want to change the dynamic there in Minnesota but Loughlin seemed to think they don’t have the personnel to do it, which could cost Richards his job. I’m betting he feels the heat already. Sad.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I would hope they keep shitting the bed. Andrew Brunette has an expiring contract and would look good here (rich man’s Mike Knuble)
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
He’d make Knuble look fast…but yeah, Brunette’s become quite a player, very underrated.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
He dropped 25/36/61 on a team that scored the third fewest goals in the Western Conference last year.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
We could get Nick Schultz and have two Schultzes, whereupon OFB’s collective head would explode.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
without a doubt, the screaming and the fighting are the most interesting things to happen in the history of Minnesota Wild hockey.
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Either something funky is going on at Caps practice, or we’re in even more trouble:
cmasisak22 Matt Bradley and Mike Green left practice early for the #Caps. Tom Poti is still out there 30 minutes in.
cmasisak22 John Carlson has also left practice early and Brooks Laich is going through drills as a defeseman for the #Caps.
"It's always good to have vikings."
I can’t think of a scenario where this can be considered “good.” I can picture “not disastrous.” But that’s about the best.
by BradleyFightingVehicle on Oct 18, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Was watching the replay of the NSH game last night and late in the third they noted that JC74 blocked a shot, “nobbled” to the bench, then kept playing.
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nob·ble (nbl)
tr.v. nob·bled, nob·bling, nob·bles Chiefly British
1. To disable (a racehorse), especially by drugging.
I did not make that up.
by S h a g g y on Oct 18, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I really, really, really, really, really hope this is just a precaution so he’s ready to go for tomorrow…as much as I love Brooks, I don’t want him back there on D. Feds was good at it, but Laich is no Feds.
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Nahhh we don’t need Brooks patrolling the blue line, when we have your favourite veteran NHL D-Man of 650 games wearing a Bears uniform Becca ;) hehe.
I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.
by Rather Bengt on Oct 18, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Your All-star goalie stat of the day...
Luongo, Fleury, Brodeur, Miller, and Vokoun are a combined 5-14-3.
Yeesh.
Vokoun at least has playing for the Panthers as an excuse. As for the others…..
by BradleyFightingVehicle on Oct 18, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, he sure does. He is putting up sick numbers. He’s got a .952 save percentage through 4 games.
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by Carl Putnam on Oct 18, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Pretty nice for my fantasy team, I must say
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by twistedlogic on Oct 18, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Best goaltender in the world right now.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Vokoun is sick. He really deserves to play for a contender.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Oct 18, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
And his contract is expiring.
/swoons
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
His successor frustrated the Hershey Bears pretty bad on Saturday. Jacob Markstrom saved a whole lotta shots for the Amerks. Panthers may decide they don’t need big bux Voukoun too much longer.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
At deadline time, the cap hit won’t be as high.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
At deadline time, I pray that Neuvy/Varly is good enough for GMGM to be able to focus on our pitiful current defensive situation.
You had me at no problem.
by Ninjak on Oct 18, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes. At this point there seems to be larger holes than the netminders.
2C, 3/4/5D
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
On March 2, 2011 (trade deadline), Vokoun’s cap hit will only be 1.195.
I heart Capgeek.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
They have popups? I have adblock and flashblock on.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, Capgeek = awesome.
But I still don’t care to hear anyone buying into the “Caps need a goalie to go all the way” nonsense. Save the assets for something more impactful. Yes, I know JP was on the Vokoun bandwagon last season. No, I do not agree this season.
You had me at no problem.
Cheap cap hit, but most likely very expensive from a trade perspective, would be my guess.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
I’d be willing to pay that price. But Florida has no leverage. They’re not going to re-sign him, so what would be the point?
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
The other teams bidding for him would be the leverage.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Yah, plenty of teams(*cough*PHILLY*cough*) need a great goalie very badly.
You had me at no problem.
He has an NMC.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
You suggesting he’d move to DC, but not Philly? He might appreciate the defense in front of him more in PHI.
You had me at no problem.
Better team in DC.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
IF, and it’s a big if, but IF Neuvy and Varly show themselves to be legit frontline ’tenders…they would represent the most liquid of NHL assets. Especially if they can extend Varly at the same rate Neuvy has.
A young, cheap #1 goalie would fetch a very nice return, hopefully one that could include an impact piece and a backup netminder, say?
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Agree with this. Who are the early contenders for available D at the deadline? A quick troll of Capgeek shows some of the upcoming UFAs who are on teams that might be out of it:
Pitkanen
Wisniewski
Ian White
Sopel
Hejda
Pitkanen
Wisniewski
Ian White
Sopel
Hejda
LULZ.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
When he’s not taking 60 foot runs at guys, he’s a half decent D and moves the puck well enough to break out of the zone. I wouldn’t turn him down.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
You laugh about Wisniewski while the Caps are dressing Fahey, Sloan and Erskine…
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 18, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Based on his um, “activities”, there is absolutely no chance of him coming (hey-o!) here
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Why’s that? He can’t be the first player to make an inappropriate reference on the ice. Have GMGM or Ted come out and said they won’t bring a player like that in at some point in the past? Or is there another incident I’m forgetting?
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Have GMGM or Ted come out and said they won’t bring a player like that in at some point in the past?
From what I’ve read/heard in the past, the organization doesn’t like to go after “non-character” guys. As I recall JP saying, some of Stefan Della Rovere’s off-ice activities were part of the reason he was shipped out of town.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Right…but they also brought in Corvo. They like character guys but I doubt off-ice has much to do with it (within limits, of course) as long as the on-ice stuff doesn’t suffer. My take on Delly was that the off-ice crap didn’t help the fact that his on-ice performance was less than stellar.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Bruce had also worked with Corvo before in Manchester. There was a familiarity there.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
That can mean all sorts of things, though, like acting like a pro off the ice, being liked by your teammates. I don’t know that taunting Avery on the ice touches on those issues.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody on the Caps has ever been suspended for an ill-advised illegal hit…
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 18, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Not one that was that blatantly dangerous and with intent.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I get that it was a dangerous hit. But 1) it was a direct response to a headshot delivered by Seabrook to Perry, which is something frankly I wish the Caps did more of; and 2) even if you don’t subscribe to vigilante justice, I doubt many people on the Ducks considered that a bad-character act at the time. Quite the opposite, I’m sure.
Seabrook hit looks clean to me. Perry had his head down, Seabrook hit him with his shoulder and didn’t leave his feet.
Best part of that video is the Anaheim color analyst accusing Seabrook of “selling it” when he’s clearly knocked out on his feet.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Isles fans would like to have a word with you.
Also: Mike Green.
Release the Mackan!
by Killer_Carlson on Oct 18, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
God. It’s so hard to say I don’t want certain guys here when we’re dressing Erskine and Sloan so consistently…….but I’d say no to all but Hannan and Daley.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I’d be pretty wary of Jovo. I haven’t seen him play much the last couple years, but the reports have been…not good.
I guess it depends what we’re looking for. He’s not going to be the cornerstone of our D, but he doesn’t have to be. His PK numbers from last year are decent and he still has the experience that we’re going to be sorely lacking this postseason.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
At the end of the day, if it’s Jovo or nothing, I take Jovo. But I’d want to be really, really sure there weren’t any other options.
5 years ago? No. Today? Yes, in a heartbeat. As someone else said, you’d have to ask CP but my read on it is that ‘Yotes fans don’t love him, he’s slowed waaaaaay down and was the beneficiary of some ass-covering by Michalek. No thanks.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Especially if it were 1997! I keeed. I didn’t include him just because Phoenix might be good enough to not be unloading contracts at the deadline. You never know, though.
Maybe CP will chime in here, but my impression is that Jovo is living more off reputation at this point, as opposed to actual performance?
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I get the very strong impression that this is the case based on the BtN stats. Michalek saved him last year.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, there you go.
I do think it’s interesting that Jovo is dressing while Lepisto is not. Not sure what to make of that, actually.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Just say no to JovoCop. Michalek dragged the player-formerly-known-as-Ed-Jovanoski around the ice last season and rescued his stats. He’s awful at this point in his career.
I’d love having Hamrlik at the deadline, he bouyed the Habs when Markov was out last season, according to the stats I can find. If he’s got anything left in the tank, he’s a guy I really think the Caps should investigate.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus we’d be spared having to hear Locker call him “JovoCop” over the next 80-100 games…
Ah, Hamrlik. He’s an enigma wrapped in a mystery tied with a big bow of occasional sucking. He’s benefited a bit from being paired w/ Gorges and Spacek, if you ask me.
If only we could pry Josh Gorges away from Montreal. HE’S the one I want. Was watching a bit of the Habs-Sens game Saturday and he’s just…good. Calm and consistent and good. And can take a slapshot to the head like no one’s business.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Love Markov, and would love him here, but we really need to fill a more defensive-minded void rather than add another slick puck-moving D. Plus Gorges is a lot cheaper and will be an RFA this summer, and Markov’s had bad injury luck.
I know, throwing logic in with daydreaming fantasy is a bit much…but that’s how I roll :P
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I don’t know about you, but each time there’s no slick puck-moving D on the ice it seems to be the Caps—even with Ovechkin’s line on ice—are hemmed in the defensive zone.
Markov, yes, but prying him away from MTL should be next to impossible.
by red army line on Oct 18, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually that was just a poor choice of words on my part. By slick puck-moving D I mean more of an offensive-minded guy – Gorges is a great puck-handler, just as more of a stay-at-home(ish) guy who is excellent at making the simple but smart play.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Obscure stat-drop incoming, give me a little bit to write it up.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Andrei Markov is a badass and if he’s available, it shouldn’t matter that he’s not totally defensive minded. He’s simply a very effective player at both evens and on the PP and if anyone could cut down on AO and Green playing the full 2:00 on the points, it’s Markov.
It’s total rosterbatory fantasy, because Markov isn’t going anywhere and the Caps would have to give up a huge set of assets to get him, but he’d be far and away the best option I’ve heard of to add to the blueline.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s pretty defensive minded, I didn’t mean it to sound like he wasn’t – and I love Markov, I do. Just thinking Gorges would be a cheaper option who is almost as good, if maybe a little less offensive-minded (and as an RFA, might actually be available if Montreal can’t get something done, like Halak was……..)
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Ha! Never. But they wouldn’t be willing to move Markov, either ;)
Btw, speaking of Montreal’s D, I hadn’t realized that they really only have Spacek and Subban locked up for next year. Markov, Hamrlik and Gill will all be UFAs, Gorges and O’Byrne will be RFAs. Crazy.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
You’re not helping my rosterbation fantasys, here.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, like I was trying to help :D Rosterbate away, good sir…just don’t go blind.
I think I’ll start my campaign for GMGM to pillage the Montreal blue line now. I really had no idea so many D were coming up for new deals this summer.
So tempting….here, Gorges, Gorges, Gorges…we have cookies…….Mike Green promises not to try and decapitate you again if you play for us…
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Why Hamrlik is awesome, obscure stat edition.
Time on Ice: Let’s start with this – he ate more time at evens than any other MTL blueliner, including his partner, Spacek. The Caps could damn sure use a guy capable of playing almost 18 minutes a night at even strength, he’d push a lot of folks down the depth chart into more comfortable positions.
Zone Starts: Hamrlik is in a group with Gill, Gorges, and Spacek who are within a few percentage points of each other down at the bottom of the roster. He’s starting about 45% of the time in offensive zone, versus 55% of the time in the defensive zone. That tells us that Martin used him mostly in the defensive stopper role and gave the offensive starts to Markov, Bergeron, and Pyatt.
Expected Zone Finish: Hamrlik leads this one by a mile. The only guys for the Habs who have positive expected zone finishes are Hamrlik at +2.78% (which is edging towards elite) and his partner, Jaro Spacek, at +1.34% (solid, but not exceptional, especially considering how much time the two spent together) Gorges is the best of the rest at -.85% and the worst are Paul Mara and MAB, at -4.4 and -4.8, respectively. Those are putrid numbers.
Competition:
Plus-Minus-based-Qualcomp Hamrlik is second behind Markov.
Corsi-Rel-Qualcomp: Hamrlik is second behind Spacek
Corsi-Qualcomp: Hamrlik is third, behind Spacek and Pyatt.
The trend is pretty clear; Hamrlik gets tough assignments with poor zonestarts and moves the puck up the ice effectively.
Teammates:
It should be noted that Hamrlik and Spacek started with the best teammates out of any D on the team.
Corsi: So in relative Corsi, you have a guy that gets shielded a whole lot, MAB, and three guys who face pretty tough competition: Hamrlik, Spacek, and Markov. The worst out of that group is Jaro Spacek at +2.9. Hamrlik is a +3.7. After that, there’s a huuuuge drop to the next player, Josh Gorges, who plays against easier competition, at -4.9.
So in the two non-context categories, Expected Zone Finish and Corsi Relative to team, Hamrlik blows away Gorges while playing against tougher competition, with teammates who are about as much better as the competition is tougher, while losing the penalty differential (about 1 extra minor every five games, which is admittedly significant over an 82 game season). Gorges is certainly better than Paul Mara or Hall Gill and I’d certainly take him over nothing if Hamrlik weren’t available, but if the choice is between the two for a run at the Cup this season? Hamrlik all the way. I’d love to have that guy.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 15 recs
Great job KHTAD. I couldn’t reply earlier but I am glad you said statistically which I was gonna say: Why all the Hamrlik hate? I would take him on the Caps gladly.
I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.
by Rather Bengt on Oct 18, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, hey, hey, no one said hate (at least I didn’t :P)
I hate to be this person because I know it doesn’t usually fly, but…whenever I watch him he messes up. Badly. That’s all I know, but I don’t hate the guy and think he would be a decent addition (at the right price) to this blue line. Just saying I’d take other guys off the Mtl blue line long before I touch Hammer.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I’d take Markov, then Hamrlik, in that order, ceteris parabus. Which basically what I’m trying to say with the stats.
I’d pay a significant premium to get Hamrlik over Gorges, actually, so it’s not even ceteris parabus. There’s an ameliorating factor in that Gorges is RFA still, but even so, I’ll still take Hamrlik by a wide margin. The old bastard is still a really good hockey player.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
My apologies for putting the “H” word in your mouth Becca. I too would take Markov over Hamrlik . As for Gorges, yes likely because of the age differential but it would be close. I have seen Hamrlik play some good games. But Hamrlik, I would gladly take on our blue line. I even remember Spacek having a great game against last year during the regular season…not that I would want Spacek.
I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.
by Rather Bengt on Oct 18, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
That was to read “Spacek having a great game against us”
I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.
by Rather Bengt on Oct 18, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Spacek’s been a decent pickup for the Habs, actually. Not sure I’d want him either but the D as a whole has been better than I’d expected.
If I could take any of them, it’d be Markov first, then Gorges, then maybe Hamrlik and then the rest. I don’t think Gorges gets enough credit – or is getting enough credit in this thread – for what he’s capable of. Very underrated player if you ask me, and I’d take him before I even looked at Hamrlik.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one. By my lights, Markov is pretty clearly the best player on that blueline (and almost certainly on that team), followed by Hamrlik, then Spacek, then Gorges. The only thing about Spacek is his contract; almost 4 mil through next year on a 35+ contract isn’t all that palatable, but right now I think he’s a better player than Josh Gorges is. Especially if you’re looking for that D-first guy.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
To echo Becca, I think this is one thing that gets lost in these larger aggregate statistics – egregious mistakes that lead to great scoring chances/goals.
Corsi/Fenwick treat all events as the same, but we all know that they’re not. You can call this the “Tom Poti” effect if you will, but it’s the notion that not all errors have the same impact and that some players seem to have a knack for making ERRORS, while other players just make errors.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I don’t really know what to do when we’re in agreement, but yes – this is exactly the case. I’m obviously not saying I’m an expert on the guy just because I’ve watched him a lot, but I think you only get part of the picture if you’re ONLY looking at numbers. That’s all.
And Gorges rules all.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
You’d expect that to show up in shooting percentages against though, would you not? With the exception of last season, Hamrlik has been getting ~.920 save percentages behind him at even strength, or slightly better than the league average. In Poti’s case, it showed up as far lower than league average until last season, when it shot up to .936 (although the whole team had an absurdly high percentage last season).
Admittedly, I don’t watch Hamrlik as much as Becca does, because I’m not a dirty Habs fan, but I did get an eyeful of him last season during the playoffs and I thought he acquitted himself pretty damn well.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I think egregious mistakes may be rare enough that they don’t move the needle on the save percentage but bad enough to cost teams standings points.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Olivier Bouchard compiles Habs scoring chances. That seems to be exactly what we’re looking for, and maybe someone more adept in French or Google Translate can find if Olivier compiled season-long data. I sent him an email asking him to help us out.
Also, Fenwick% correlates highly with scoring chance%, at least on a team level, according to research on Irreverent Oilers Fans.
by red army line on Oct 18, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Jiminy!
That’s a pretty impressive threads you guys have going on here :). So, two charts (hopefully you guys can see those, otherwise the links are below)
link to the first chart
link to the second chart
Now, how to read these?
- The first chart is for scoring chances; for each cross-section of players, you have two numbers, one on the column “N” is the total of even strength scoring chances that happened while those two players were on the ice, and +/- % is the % of chances that were for the habs. So Spacek was on the ice with Hamrlik for 602 even strength scoring chances, 49% of those being for the habs.
- The second chart gives you 4 numbers for each cross-section: “N” and “+/-” you know about. The two lines are “TVF”, which is the french name I gave to Corsi (that is goals+shots on goal+missed shots+blocked shots) and “MenJ” which is the french version of “Zone Start”, that is the amount of offensive zone and defensive zone faceoffs.
So, on the second chart, we see that Spacek was on the ice with Hamrlik for 2008 *even strength shot attempts", 49,6% of which were by the habs. They were on the ice together for 554 even strength faceoffs, 43,9% of which were in the offensive zone.
One last thing: the colour codes. The “N” columns are coded from white to dark blue, the bluer means a higher percentage of on ice events seen by one player were with another player. The dark blue for the 554 and 2008 numbers means Hamr and Spacek spent most of their time together. The +/- is even simpler: Red means it’s one of the lowest numbers in the table, yellow is average, green is high.
That means Hamrlik and Spacek had the toughest territorial assignments and yet had one of the best shot (and scoring chances differential) on the team’s defense.
Markov doesn’t look completely good with these; it’s mostly due to the fact that he always played against the opposition’s best and spent most of his time with either Gorges (who is pretty good) or O’Byrne (who is useless). Oh, Markov never fully recovered from his early season leg injury either.
So, who would be the best on defense after Markov (who, yes, is our best player)? Probably Hamrlik. Spacek is a bit flakier and really is an even-strength & PP player. Martin is using him on the PK this year and old man Jaro can’t keep up. Hamrlik isn’t fast anymore, neither is he an offensive force, but he is steady and far more physical than credited for. Those who sign him for 2 millions next summer will be pleasantly surprised. I sure hope it’s the habs.
But Spacek and Hamrlik are joined at the hip and they have been Martin’s go to guys ever since early november last year. That’s why deciding who is #2 and #3 between those two isn’t relevant. They aren’t going anywhere unless Martin and Gauthier are both fired because of a massive meltdown.
Gorges is much better than the numbers tell. He doesn’t look that good because he has to look after Hal Gill, who seems to be a very nice locker room presence but also is a pylon. Except in the playoffs, when the refs stops calling interference, then Gill becomes pretty effective.
This is all academic, of course: none of these guys are to be traded this year, especially not Hamrlik and Spacek (our tough minute pair) and Gorges (probably the next captain…). Subban is Markov’s heir and Gill is a “leader” so… The habs will squeak into the playoffs on the back of their defense and special teams. If they make a trade, it will be some depth players (O’Byrne certainly is a candidate) and some forwards.
But still, this is a very interesting discussion. You guys churn out an impressive amount of quality arguments!
by Olivier on Oct 18, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 11 recs
Gorges is much better than the numbers tell. He doesn’t look that good because he has to look after Hal Gill, who seems to be a very nice locker room presence but also is a pylon.
And just like that, you’re my new favorite :)
I suppose between your numbers and Knee High’s further up I can give Hamrlik the benefit of the doubt. I just get the sense that, as you said, he’s better w/ Spacek and that he’s getting older and slower. For this kind of team I can’t see that being a bonus.
…but yes, ‘tis all fantasy. I’d agree that it’s unlikely Montreal trades any of these guys right now – I just love Gorges and think he’s been great; I was reminded of that watching him on Saturday, he just does little things right and we could use that on our blue line.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Awesome, thank you for the post, Olivier.
I’m sad to hear that Hamrlik isn’t going to be available, Becca got my hopes up with that expiring contract list.
Love your site, that’s amazing work – how long did it take you to write the scripts that compiled those charts? RAL and I are recording chances for the Caps this season, but it’s no where near this sophisticated.
Again, thanks for taking the time to write this out and I’ll keep Gorges in mind as a potential stud player.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
It's a hobby.
Really couldn’t tell. Especially since I have no programming background whatsoever.
But the process is some python script that generate csv files, shoved into an excel spreadsheet, mashed into pivot tables.
Anyone with minimal programming experience, a simple grasp of the python language and the beautiful soup module can do that pretty quickly I think.
Yup. I saw Markstrom at the WJC’s a few years ago and he was unbelievable.
Also inspired one of my all-time favorite Youtube videos
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I always hate to say that though. Good players have to play for bad teams sometimes. Florida won’t get any better without good players like Vokoun.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Oct 18, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
And a future all star (Neuvirth, Michal F’in) is 4-1-0.
by red army line on Oct 18, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Miller also has an excuse. His last 3 games he let up 3 goals on 63 shots or something like that. And won none of them. That can’t be put on him.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 18, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Oops: Goc just placed on IR.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Would not be surprised to see Nick get an interview with Colie out of that one. Irresponsible hit + bad result = trip to league offices, at least in a lot of cases.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
The league announced a hearing with Shane Doan just now. No word on Bax yet.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Doan’s hit was one of the blindside/head shot things, right? Haven’t seen a replay, though.
Baxter’s at least wasn’t one of those.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Links guy at Five For Howling.
by Carl Putnam on Oct 18, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep, Doan will probably get the book thrown at him by the league, to avoid having the blindside hit rule enforcement go to hell in a handbasket before the season is 10 games old.
Or perhaps no suspension. These days, you can’t be sure about any kind of disciplinary measures. With the exception of pulling a Wisniewski.
You had me at no problem.
If you have to talk to Campbell, doesn’t that imply you’re getting at least a game?
"It's always good to have vikings."
I’m pretty sure Ovechkin had to talk to Campbell after the Kaleta ejection, but was warned and fined.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
ESPN reposted a link to this Ovechkin gem this morning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp1DMQ-x33k\
Classic.
You had me at no problem.
Ovi’s answering questions today: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/842/have-a-question-for-alex-ovechkin-send-em-to-us
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
wish I had video, but Ryan Miller has a Comcast xfinity commerical. With Shaq. Which makes Miller lot even skinner than usual.
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Apparently. What a waste of a draft pick.
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"Victory is sweetest when you've known defeat"
by Ovechwin on Oct 18, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oy. I guess we can officially label him a bust now.
"Now wait a minute. This is just purely a social call. You know, just two adults getting a stew on, man."
by The Ghost of Bebop on Oct 18, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
waste of a draft pick, yeah, but I feel for the kid. People don’t usually come to a decision like that impulsively. I wonder how long he’s been pushing through because it what he was “supposed” to do?
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I’d rather… just……sing!
"Because the game is not just about fighting no more. " D.J. King
by bigeugene on Oct 18, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I kind of wondered if hockey wasn’t so much fun for him a while ago. He lost so much time to injury that psychologically, being so far behind in development had to hurt.
"It's always good to have vikings."
I wonder if he’d have felt any better about the whole thing if he’d fallen to the 3rd round or so (even though it sounds like he wouldn’t have).
by DrinkingPartner on Oct 18, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The expectations might have been lower, but the injuries were still there.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Right, but would he have felt so put upon? Granted, we don’t know if he did in the first place, but being a high draft pick and the son of a beloved player had to be hard.
by DrinkingPartner on Oct 18, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I looked it up because I was bored, and want to know how many post-lockout draft picks have played more than 100 games for the Caps? One (Backstrom). Compare that to the Pens (Crosby, Letang, Staal) and Hawks (Kanes, Toews, Hjarlmarsson), who’ve got 3.
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but you could consider Ovie – slam-dunk that he was – to be a post-lockout pick, it’s not like he played much before the lockout. That brings it up to 2. And we’ve got other picks (most notably in net) that will hit that mark eventually.
Speaking of Pittsburgh and goalies…everyone see that Johnson’s starting again tonight? Third straight, including back-to-back games against the Isles and Flyers this weekend.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
if you’re counting Ovie, you should also count the wingar and Mr. Nasty
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The ’04 Caps (AO, Green, Schultz) and Pens draft s(Malkin, Goligoski and Kennedy) cancel each other out at that bar.
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
So does my use of the space bar, yeesh.
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
put down the flavored vodka and step away from the keyboard
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Fair enough. But then you also have to keep in mind that the Caps drafted a bunch of goalies post-lockout, 2 of whom are NHLers, and they take considerably longer to hit that 100-game mark.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
And 2-3 years from now I’ll be more than willing to eat crow over it (or any other sub-1st round pick that may crack the roster), but in between that and the other explanation people keep saying (he didn’t have the resources he has now), you’ll forgive me if I reserve judgment?
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I suppose so. I’m just pointing out that it’s not the easiest metric to use when judging teams because there are so many reasons for why it worked out that way. And having 2 goalies taken post-lockout automatically puts you at a “disadvantage”, such as it were, when using games played as a measuring stick – but if you look at quality of player, Neuvirth and Varlamov are up there (or will be) with some of the guys you’ve listed w/ 100+ games.
Consider that Chicago has drafted four goalies since the lockout, none of them earlier than the 4th round and none of them appearing in any NHL games. And Pittsburgh has drafted 3, none of them earlier than the 4th round, and their combined NHL experience is summed up in exactly 36 minutes of action when Pechursky had to come in last year.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
It’s the best I can find for recent draft success, with the widest being 300 (or 200 for most of the guys up now) for a FanPost I did that I’m too lazy/feel guilty to link to.
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Suspend[ed]… contract
Does that mean that it no longer counts towards the 50?
by DrinkingPartner on Oct 18, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe so.
I have a twitter.
Not another Capitals blog!
"Victory is sweetest when you've known defeat"
two draft picks, actually—don’t forget Patrice Cormier…
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by bilspacecadet on Oct 18, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder if his name had been “Anton Jones” or “Anton McElroy” or something else besides “Gustafsson” they would have even drafted him.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also, would it be safe to say he’s the first opening round bust of the 2008 draft?
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he’s a bust, yet, still. If he goes back to Sweden, collects himself, and plays in the SEL proper next year or the year after, he’s got a chance. He’ll only be 21-22, after all.
by DrinkingPartner on Oct 18, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
If he quits entirely, though, then yes.
by DrinkingPartner on Oct 18, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
We could have had Jordan Eberle :(
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"Victory is sweetest when you've known defeat"
Or Tedenby or Ellis.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 18, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Shit, I meant Ennis*.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 18, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Certainly not where he was drafted.
I have a twitter.
Not another Capitals blog!
"Victory is sweetest when you've known defeat"
If he is indeed done with hockey, that’s two of the Caps first three picks from that draft who have quit from lack of passion. Which is just…awful.
Mestery was the 3rd pick that year?
by DrinkingPartner on Oct 18, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep. Gus at 21, Carlson at 27, Mestery at 57. And then there’s Kugryshev at 58.
So the Caps had two firsts and two seconds and drafted one guy who looks like a blue-chipper, two guys who have quit professional hockey (apparently) and a guy whose condition has been…suspect.
Thank God for Carlson.
by David Getz on Oct 18, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Kuger might just be terrible at suicides is all, too. He could still develop into a 2 or 3W.
by DrinkingPartner on Oct 18, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
If his aerobic capacity is significantly below that of other pro hockey players, that’s going to be a problem.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Actually, aerobic doesn’t worry me as much as if he’s just got an abnormally low lactate-threshold an an inability to sustain anaerobic efforts.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Not necessarily. VO2 Max is pretty much genetic. You can make tiny little marginal improvements.
Lactate threshold, though, can definitely be worked on.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Just to help a brother out, VO2 Max is your aerobic capacity, i.e. your ability to get oxygen from your lungs to the muscles that need them?
What is lactatate threshold, and how does it impact anaerobic efforts?
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I’ll probably dick this up, but VO2 is max aerobic, whereas lactate threshold is how long you can sustain anaerobic effort. The latter is more important to hockey than the former, and is trainable.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
There is a large impact of genetics on your body’s cardio ability; however, you can make some pretty large strides to teach your body to transport oxygen more effectively.
All people do hit a point where they really cant get in better shape and at that point they make tiny little improvements. That being said, guys like Lance Armstrong and Dean Karnazes are at that point. Not a teenager in the NHL, to say the least
Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!
The research I’ve seen for cycling says that you really can’t change your VO2 Max. It is what it is.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Hmm, I looked around and i think you and i are both partially right. In endurance sports, most atheletes hit their VO2 Max because they are just in the best shape they can possibley be. . .at that point, they really cant go anywhere but down.
With the genetic side of it, Kuger may be at a genetic disadvantage. But, he is most definitely not at his VO2 Max. Whether he puts in the effort to improve. ..well. . .time will tell
Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!
That’s terrible scouting.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Oct 18, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don’t know how you can predict who’s going to lose the passion. Stuff happens. And any kid in their interview is going to tell you how they can’t wait to get to the NHL.
"It's always good to have vikings."
by gfcaps fan on Oct 18, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You should go read Bourne’s piece on hating to lose vs. loving to win.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I did, but when you’re being interviewed for a job, don’t you try to tell the interviewer what he wants to hear?
"It's always good to have vikings."
honesty is a good way to not get a job, in fact.
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I disagree. I think it can make it very clear that a person doesn’t deserve a job. But I’ve never lied, obfuscated, or sucked up to anybody in an interview. I haven’t gotten every job I’ve applied for, but I’ve never left an interview without being complimented. An in many cases when I didn’t get the job, I got a lead on another one.
Country Gentlemen's Pig Fertilizer Gazette
Dunny-on-the-World
That’s why a clever interviewer has ways of asking you questions that force you to divulge things you’d rather hide.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Oct 18, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
His point seemed very astute to me.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Oct 18, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think it was: it’s a subtle difference, but a very important one.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
It seems completely made up. Unless you’re suggesting there’s data backing up the conclusion that the answers can tell you anything at all.
In other words, the question and the conclusion that people are drawing from it seem about as valid as a Myers Briggs test, which is to say, complete bullshit.
Sorry, just because someone doesn’t have a rigorous data set at hand doesn’t mean you can dismiss it outright. It’s a factor in any athletic event.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t have to be rigorous. Any data will do. It just smacks of pseudo-scientific personality tests.
There are lots of non-quantifiable factors on a sports team. It’s hard to get data for personality traits, but they most definitely matter. How do you measure leadership? Does that make it less real?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Who’s denying that leadership is real, or that personality traits matter?
The point is, that one silly question probably isn’t going to give you anything useful in those departments. In fact, it’s quite likely that the same person would answer that question differently depending on how it is asked, who asks, and what day it is.
I thought you were saying that the idea of some people loving to win and some hating to lose is absurd. Am I reading this thread wrong?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Yes. I’m sure most people will tell you they have a preference of the two, maybe even a strong preference. I’m saying you can’t tell anything of note from their stated preference. Then I added to that point that their stated preference is likely to vary, which just makes any conclusion drawn from their answer even less useful.
Not a big deal. I’m sure that not a whole lot of stock is put in the answers. Personality tests are just something I find interesting.
It’s not something you ask the players. You can tell by watching people play most of the time.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I was referring to the Bourne post in which he discussed a question that scouts loved to ask of prospects. I’d much rather draw the conclusion from their play than their answer…as it sounds like you would too.
Also, there were a bunch of pundits at the time who criticized the Caps for going so “off the board” with that pick.
It was GMGM and his stupid “bloodlines” obsession.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Oct 18, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Different point, and I have no argument with that. We were discussing the quitting, not the talent (or lack thereof).
"It's always good to have vikings."
by gfcaps fan on Oct 18, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I actually think it’s easier to determine the mentality of a kid than how they will physically progress. Not realizing that 2 guys didn’t even love hockey is a pretty brutal oversight.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
We don’t know if they don’t love hockey, they just don’t seem to love hockey enough to put in the work it requires to get paid lots of money to play.
I agree that it does seem like a question that should be asked in one of pre-draft interviews.
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a 17 or 18 year old kid can think he does want to put in all that work and is willing to push through the grinding injuries and moments of self doubt. He can tell scouts with all the confidence in the world that he is 100% committed to his NHL dream.
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I would hope and expect the question(s) would be more probing than “Are you willing to put in hard hours to play in the NHL?”
Maybe that is the problem, the Caps just assumed that everyone with talent has the desire and will to put in the time.
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
They thought AnGus was a better choice than Eberle and Carlson, both, too. I don’t think there’s any question about that.
by DrinkingPartner on Oct 18, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Do they not interview these kids? That’s horrible.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
he’s been injured for most of the last 4 years and admitted coming to rookie camp lacking in any self confidence. I wouldn’t have a whole lot of passion for the game at this point, either.
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Quick and dirty:
I have a twitter.
Not another Capitals blog!
"Victory is sweetest when you've known defeat"
been a while since we’ve had a blingee
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He has majestic hair. I never realized.
I have a twitter.
Not another Capitals blog!
"Victory is sweetest when you've known defeat"
In other injury news, Volchenkov (with a “broken nose”) is still not ready to play. He’s doubtful even for Thursday’s game.
Goc out 2-4 weeks w/ separated shoulder.
Mean Lars is 2 for 2.
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Heh. I think.
Volchenkov’s got to have an issue beyond the broken nose. Most of the time the player would be back in the next game, no?
"It's always good to have vikings."
Via fire&Ice: MacLean on Volchenkov’s status: “Right now it’s status quo. Really it’s part of getting the shot in face there and maybe his neck (had) had a little whiplash or something. I don’t know. It’s stiff.”
You perhaps knew me better as "Your Nation's Capital." Same great commentary, now with 100% more transparency!
Or in the same game, scoring four goals.
by Ginga on Oct 18, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
JapersRink Post-season form already… RT @cmasisak22 Poti on his injury: “They don’t really want me to say. I’m not at liberty to speak about that.”
"It's always good to have vikings."
Give him your ticket to the game so he can watch from the stands like the rest of us.
by Stormblue on Oct 18, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 11 recs
Give GMGM a lobotomy so he trades for him.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
by Becca H on Oct 18, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
um, oooookay. Poti had a lower body injury, a long history of groin issues (particularly early in the season), but it needs to be kept under wraps?
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Soooo glad he’s extended beyond this year. Genius signing, that.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Greenie’s got a history of shoulder issues and is out with a shoulder injury…that one look bad, too?
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Green’s also a lot younger and groin issues (assuming that’s what’s going on) are a bigger deal for a hockey player.
by David Getz on Oct 18, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, yeah. I was (mostly) being snarky, because I don’t feel like getting into the whole “it was a HORRIBLE signing” discussion again. Fact is, extension or no, he’d be playing with this injury under the current contract. And if everyone was afraid to sign a guy in his 30s with a history of injuries – particularly ones that are fairly common to all players – a good chunk of the League wouldn’t have jobs.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
And lots of the guys with injury history are on one year deals. Mitchell was able to leverage a weak D pool and lots of suitors into 2 years.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I don’t know how you compare a guy with occasional groin issues who has proven he can play after coming back – and be one of the team’s best D in the playoffs, no less – to a guy who hadn’t played a single game since missing half of last season with a concussion.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I’m saying Mitchell is the only injury risk that got a multi-year deal, and his was a unique situation with the amount of suitors, etc.
Blah blah blah, several groin injuries, recurring, huge threat to continue, blah blah blah.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Perhaps it’s not groinal this time (and that’s totally a word).
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
perhaps. and it’s probably best if it isn’t another groin injury.
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oh, Becca, I think I should track down Poti and say “I hope your injury isn’t groinal this time” at STH party tonight. Just because I imagine the look on his face (and everyone else) would be priceless.
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…if you do, will you please have someone take a picture of it for me? I need a new desktop picture :D
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
whatever it is, Poti thinks he’ll play tomorrow. From CI:
“I’m hoping I’ll be ready. I’ll have to reassess it in the morning but hopefully when I wake up in the morning I still feel good,” Poti said.
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Anaheim wavied Mikkelson. Admittedly, I know almost nothing about him and haven’t seen much. And while it’s not a good sign he’s being waived, he can’t be worse than Sloan/Erskine/Fahey, can he?
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 18, 2010 2:10 PM EDT reply actions
Anaheim can afford to waive a d-man right now?
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Impressive.
Signed,
O. Hedman
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for the contribution?
A very misguided piece on Huffington Post recently called 30 Rock the most racist show on television thanks to Tracy Morgan’s wild, manic, madcap performance. Tonight illustrated why whoever wrote that piece is full of shit and should be punched in the face until he has a more nuanced grasp on comedy.
by Bald Pollack on Oct 18, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
More than the Caps can. With the waiving of Mikkelson they’ll be dressing Visnovsky, Lydman, Fowler, Mara, Brookbank and Lilja. (Assuming Fowler doesn’t miss time). By no means a great group, but nobody that really stands out as not belonging in the NHL. And then they’ll have Sutton returning at some point (I don’t remember how long he’s out for).
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 18, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought they had a few more injuries on the blue line. guess I was mistaken.
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They also sent Sbisa to Syracuse.
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
OOF. Not a good sign for that guy. Did the Flyers fuck up his development or realize he wasn’t that good? Hard to figure out what is going on there.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Sbisa was drafted in 2008. He’s the same age as John Carlson. Hard to know the impact of his bouncing around Leagues and via trade, but it’s reasonable for a 20yo dman prospect to spend time in the AHL. Also, with Anaheim’s struggles, it makes sense.
It’s just weird that he already played in the NHL, played in the Olympics, and got passed by Cam Fowler. I understand ANA has problems, but it cuts both ways. They need D that can play, and they clearly aren’t afraid of playing a kid, so sending him to the AHL says more “you aren’t good enough” than “we want to take it slow and let you develop more” in my eyes.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
He played in the NHL during seasons when it was NHL or back to juniors, AHL was not an option as he was drafted in 2008 out of the WHL.
He played in the Olympics because he plays for Switzerland. It’s different than a player playing in the Olympics as a dman for Canada, USA, etc., at that age.
Obviously being on Switzerland is the only reason he made the Olympics, but he still convinced them he could play with men and he held his own. That team also surpassed expectations.
I know he couldn’t go to the NHL in ‘08. But it’s odd that one NHL team thought he was ready enough for the NHL to play half a season and then two years later he hadn’t progressed enough to actually be in the NHL.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Too early to tell I think. Dude is only 20, and it’s his first “real” professional season.
It takes a special kind of man to be a Scuttlin' Crab Man
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by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Same here. He went in the Pronger deal, then he was in the last two WJCs and the Olympics last year. He’s had a lot of international experience.
It takes a special kind of man to be a Scuttlin' Crab Man
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Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 18, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Pronunciation of Wisniewski vs Visnovsky? Trivial, I know, but I’m trying to figure out which one is which when I hear them referenced without a team to provide context…
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
James Wisniewski, D
New York Islanders
Pronounced Wiss-new-ski
Lubomire Visnovsky, D
Anaheim Ducks
Pronounced Loo-bow-meer Vij-nov-ski
Soon the Championship with be ours, all ours!
At least it’s the pronunciation in our country (on Wisniewski).
In his “old” country (Poland), it is pronounced “Vishnevsky”, similar to former NHLer Vitaly Vishnevsky, or we could say that Vishnevsky is the Russian equivalent of Wisniewski.
Rocking the Red since 1975
That was my initial thought when I saw the news. And he’s only 23. Maybe he’s only a bottom pairing player, but that will mean that the Caps are dressing fewer players that aren’t even at that level.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 18, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t imagine he wouldn’t be an upgrade over Sloan, but even if he wasn’t, he’s a decent first-guy-from-the-AHL player.
With the way waivers work, I don’t understand why people think the Caps could claim a player and simply stick them in the AHL, it doesn’t work that way.
As to an upgrade, given Anaheim’s D troubles this year and injuries and recently sending Sbisa down, it is an interesting move with Fowler leaving the game last night, too.
Also, isn’t he a Left side dman? I don’t understand people jumping at the idea of claiming him if he is and not sure I’d agree even if he was a right side dman. He hasn’t established himself as a full-time NHLr at this point from the little I have seen, but I admit I haven’t seen a lot of him the last couple of seasons.
He’s gotta be better than Sloan. End of story, as far as I’m concerned.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
by Rob Parker on Oct 18, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He just got waived by a pretty crappy team whose defense isn’t exactly spectacular, I’m not sure I’d make that assumption.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I’m making that assumption, and feel comfortable doing it. He’s also 23 so he might get better. I’d trade Sloan for a steaming turd platter, so why not take a chance on a depth guy when it costs nothing?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
by Rob Parker on Oct 18, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Brookbank is the only guy that might not crack the Caps roster, but I’d take him over what we have.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Let’s be fair, here – Sloan’s the only guy on the roster who is not a legit NHLer. Erskine may not be beloved around here, and for good reason, but he’s better than an AHL D and has a pretty long career in the NHL for someone who should be in the A.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Ok, but my ire has mostly been directed at Sloan. I’ve acknowledged that Erskine is an NHL player, even if he shouldn’t get a sweater every day. The guy I want forced off the Caps in the biggest way is Sloan. I’ll take a Brookbank/Erskine 6/7 tandem over Sloskine.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Right. That’s fine, I was speaking more to D’s implication that Anaheim’s got 6 legit NHLers on the blue line and we don’t.
Not sure I’d take Brookbank, either – in my admittedly limited viewings he looks like a younger Erskine.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
I think Erskine’s a legit NHLer. I wasn’t suggesting the Ducks have six NHL defensemen and the Caps don’t; rather than the Ducks have seven and the Caps don’t.
Well, that’s saying a whole hell of a lot.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
by Becca H on Oct 18, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If we waived Erskine tomorrow, I think he’d pass through waivers.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
…he probably would, but that’s not what I’m saying. Plenty of NHL-caliber D-men and players in general pass through waivers unclaimed all the time.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
Yeah, but Erskine’s contract isn’t totally ridiculous like Tom Preissing or Sheldon Souray.
$1.25m is about right for a good 5/6 defenseman (who’s not on an ELC). The problem is that Erskine just isn’t a good 5/6 defenseman, and he’s even less suited to be one in Boudreau’s system.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
He just got waived by a pretty crappy team whose defense isn’t exactly spectacular, I’m not sure I’d make that assumption.
Did you watch the Islanders game? Because if you did, you saw a much worse team with an even more unspectacular defense, and you witnessed their bottom-pairing defenseman massively outperform ours.
Erskine and Sloan DO. NOT. BELONG. IN. THE. N. H. L.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Jesus – STOP. YELLING.
Their forwards massively outperformed ours, too, does that make our team below NHL-caliber? I’m not the world’s biggest Erskine fan by any stretch, but come on – when Erskine isn’t asked to do too much he’s perfectly capable of playing in the NHL. He’s not a top-4 D but he can hit, sometimes makes a decent play and rarely looks lost.
Sloan looks lost, and that’s how I define someone who isn’t NHL-caliber.
If anyone needs me, I'll be at Kettler.
by Becca H on Oct 18, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
I think when Erskine tries to hit is when he looks lost. He gets too hung up on the “I have to be a physical force!” thing and he takes himself out of position. Same thing I bitch about Brooks Orpik, except Orpik has loads more skill than Erskine.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I’ll keep yelling as long as I keep having to watch Erskine play. It’s fucking painful. ;)
I used to think the way you do, but I don’t anymore. Erskine has bouts of decent play for a couple weeks at a time, but then he returns to what he’s always been – a big guy who can barely skate and can’t handle the puck to save his life. He really is terrible. Contract aside, I don’t think he’d make almost any other roster in the NHL. He really is terrible.
Every time he’s in the D-zone, it’s only a matter of time until he loses his stick, or he turns the puck over or takes a penalty.
I seriously, honestly cannot for the life of me identify an NHL team on which John Erskine would crack the top-6.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Oct 18, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I seriously, honestly cannot for the life of me identify an NHL team on which John Erskine would crack the top-6.
The Washington Capitals!
by David Getz on Oct 18, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’m not assuming they can simply stick him in the AHL, I’m saying that if they try him out and he doesn’t offer them what they’re looking for long-term, he could still have value as a guy who is primarily an AHL player but gets called up when the team needs someone.
So you are saying try him out short-term and then place him on waivers if they don’t like him at the NHL level. Still I am not sure I agree with this player. When reading your first comment I thought you were also noting they could put him in the AHL if they didn’t like him at the NHL level. True they can waive him and hope to assign him to the AHL, and if no other team, including Anaheim, claimed him they could assign him, but I’d expect in a case like this Anaheim would reclaim the player. Unless Anaheim really wants to be done with him, he gets claimed by Anaheim (if not by another team) and heads to their AHL affiliate if that’s what they want to do. (Like Bourque last year Caps-Pens-Caps-Bears.)
The Caps must be pretty high in the waiver order, I’m guessing. If the Caps are able to claim the guy, why would other teams claim him soon thereafter when he’s passing through waivers again, when they hadn’t before?
by red army line on Oct 18, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
How many teams have to pass before the Caps get a crack to claim off the wire? pardon my ignorance on this matter.
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
…and after that, how does it work?
I assume if the Caps were interested, they’d make a deal with the Islanders or somebody and have them make the claim.
after Nov. 1, I believe they base the waiver order on league standings on Nov. 1.
Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground
It’s league standings for the current season based on percentage of points earned (lowest percent highest in the claim order,) starting on November 1.
Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground
Faceoffs in the defensive zone are extremely important; losing one causes the shots-against rate to be equivalent to the opposing team having a 10-15 second power play.
I call bullshit. Maybe Knee or another stat person can put this in better context, but it just shows poor understanding of the game, in my opinion. “Shots against rate” is not the salient factor on a PP/PK situation. It’s that one team has fewer men on the ice. Losing a D zone draw sucks, but it does not equate to losing a man.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
It’s worth about 1/4 of a Corsi event either way, so it adds up over the course of a season, but it’s not a huge deal. The real killer on the PK is both shot rate against and pucks go in a lot more because the chances are better in general.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s his source.
It’s hard to downplay what happens here. After you lose a faceoff in the neutral zone, you have time to set up defensively and you don’t give up a particularly large number of good scoring opportunities. However, when you lose a faceoff in your own end, opponent shots on goal go up so quickly that it’s as though you gave the other team a 10-15 second power-play. For several seconds, the rate of shots allowed is as high as it is on a 5-on-3. The prospect of this level of defensive disadvantage, particularly late in a one-goal game, must give coaches nightmares.
That’s fine, but shot rate isn’t the most relevant factor, certainly not enough to say losing a FO is akin to a 10-15 second PK. You still have 5 defenders don’t you? The shots are largely point shots, which can be dangerous but are not the same as the quality shots you get in a good PP. Every single team has D zone systems in place in the event of a lost D zone draw. I don’t mean every single NHL team, I mean every single team. Pee Wees have the systems. So it’s not like a lost D zone draw results in chaos. It’s common sense that if you lose the draw, they have the puck and can get a shot. But to look at the shot rate and then take the massive leap to “it’s like a PK!” makes me bristle because it just looks like stat people are identifying two similar numbers and then drawing a ludicrous conclusion. It doesn’t pass the smell or logic test.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
by Rob Parker on Oct 18, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m surprised that it is as significant as 10-15 seconds, but it is akin to terrible defense where your wingers have completely abandon the points that they are supposed to be guarding. If the center wins the draw cleanly there are at least two unguarded players with lots of traffic in front and possibly, depending on the offensive teams setup, a winger available for what is equivalent to a PP one timer in the slot.
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
I understand that a FO win can be a scoring chance immediately. If the draw goes right to Semin or AO or a huge shot at the point. But that’s relatively rare, and even then you have immediate pressure because it’s 5 v. 5 so you have to make your shot immediately. PPs aren’t about shot rate, they are about quality shots. You work the puck around to find an open shot that will be difficult to stop, or you bomb from the point and use your numbers advantage down low to get to a rebound. This is especially true on a 5 on 3, where shot rate may drop drastically but shot quality increases drastically. Some teams, like the Caps, play a 5 on 3 for the perfect shot; a shot the goalie has no chance of saving. To imply that PPs are dangerous because of shot rate misses the entire point.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I agree with you last statement, but the types of shots that come from a lost defensive draw and a setup PP are similar, if not entirely equivalent. When a team loses a defensive zone draw they have essentially placed themselves in a short handed position because there are defenders that aren’t defending anyone. Those guys are out of position and in many situations providing screens for the offense.
Beards are the zenith of manliness. First, they are scratchy and unpleasant to womenfolk. Second, they look awesome. Third, if you have something tasty for lunch, you can enjoy the smell all the way until dinnertime. - RMNB
Agree completely. A 10-15 sec PP is an overstatement.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
What that actually means is that the number of shots directed at net is that high for 10-15 seconds (depending on how fast it trails off and the flow of play reasserts itself), rather than the quality of the shots, which aren’t as high as they are on a power-play.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s fine, but without the quality qualifier that statement is hugely misleading.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Agreed, it was poorly phrased and I think that Neil is overreaching with some of his work recently.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it comes off like “look what I can do with stats!” instead of just trying to use them in more subtle ways that would help fans understand. It’s like he wants to make a splash with the stats, which sometimes comes off like he thinks he’s smarter than his audience (insert obligatory CI shot here). You know how I feel about people trying to do too much with stats, so it shouldn’t be a shock that I haven’t been a huge fan of his early stuff.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
What that actually means is that the number of shots directed at net is that high for 10-15 seconds
Then why not just say this? This statement is inoffensive and obvious. Stating that “it’s like a power play for 10-15 seconds” is hyperbole.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
by D'ohboy on Oct 18, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
30 Thoughts! Only one Caps-related, and not that interesting. Some interesting stuff on Wade Redden, though.
Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground
by RedBirdie on Oct 18, 2010 4:20 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
That comment made me think more about the Varlamov vs. Neuvirth debates in which people have commented that Neuvirth has only succeeded against lower competition. That goes for his support and systems as well. It’s an interesting point to think about.
The guy is Peter Schumpmaker. Lord knows what a schump is, but you can bet your bippy his ancestors made them. What he's doing is far worse than crafting fine schumps.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 18, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
30. If you injected Colin Campbell with truth serum and asked him which player annoys him the most, I’d say there’s a good chance he answers Patrick Kaleta. The New York Post’s Larry Brooks reported Kaleta became the first NHL player to be fined twice for actions in the same game (that was last week against New Jersey).
Love it.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
For the twitter-less, I linked all of Nate’s tweeted photo’s of today’s trip to ESPN in this fanpost.
Pledge Drive 2010-2011: SO KIDS CAN!! Help build a playground
Wow. Doan gets 3 games for his head shot. Pretty stiff punishment. I guess the NHL is serious about getting guys to avoid head shots.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Another data point in the “to burn an ELC year, or not to burn an ECL year” debate. From Lighthouse Hockey:
Perhaps as significant in those Gordon quotes is how he described the decision to keep Bailey two winters ago, which might hint at how they approach the Nino decision: “…We knew that if [Bailey] stayed here, we could get a lot of the bad things out of his game and make the process quicker for him. If we had sent him back to Junior, he would have gotten a bunch of points, probably would’ve won the Memorial Cup with the team that won it. (He) Would’ve gone to World Juniors, but at the end of the day, right now, he could be the player we saw last year instead of being the player he is now..”
(Just imagine it’s block quoted. SBN isn’t letting me do it right now for some reason.)
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
From 30 Thoughts:
Milan Michalek said brother Zbynek really wanted to join him in Ottawa, but the Senators targeted Sergei Gonchar instead. GM Bryan Murray said his four main interests were Gonchar, Michalek, Anton Volchenkov and Paul Martin. He called Gonchar first and was asked to make an immediate choice.
(Again, pretend it’s block quoted.)
If that’s true, and I have no reason to think it isn’t, that’s a brutal indictment of Bryan Murray. An absolutely terrible decision when you consider all the factors.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
"Has the Window to Win Closed on Flames?"
Elliot, 2005-6 is calling, it want its revelation back.
Otherwise, bang-up stuff as always.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Yeah, it sure seems like it. I think in 05-06 they had a chance of doing something to be good for years, but Sutter has gutted them. I think now it’s closed tight, and it sucks for Iggy.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I think he’ll waive his NTC to go to a contender eventually. But yeah, it sucks.
Yet more proof that you don’t want your cornerstone player to be a winger.
Gulp.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Well Iggy never had a cornerstone C to play with, and their D was never what the Caps have the potential to ice. We’ll see.
The problem for Iggy is that even if he waives his NTC, his contract is a contract for an elite player in the prime, which he isn’t. It would probably only work as a rental in his UFA year.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Should Backstrom be suspended?
As you can tell by what I’ve already written over there, I’m not in the “everyone’s against Nashville” crowd. That said, in watching that hit again, I’m not sure why these other hits (never mind the whole Wiz biz) are getting looked at, where a boarding call that saw a player relatively seriously injured hasn’t seen a second glance.
Suspending him would be doing it simply because there was an injury. It wasn’t a good hit, and it got penalized. End of story. Sucks for Goc but that wasn’t brutal or malicious. That stuff happens pretty frequently but Goc was off balance and didn’t absorb it as (I presume) Nicky expected. I don’t think it’s that similar to the Hossa hit. The speed was lower and the force was lower. I have no way of proving it, but I strongly suspect that Backstrom was really just trying to initiate contact to start fighting for body position. Sometimes you’re going to the boards with a guy and you just try to “steer” him where you want him to go so you have the better position. Maybe I’m a homer, but I don’t think it was that vicious or even that dirty so I’d let it go with the in-game penalty.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
by Rob Parker on Oct 18, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Nobody’s saying its brutal or malicious, I even allowed that I don’t think Backstrom has a malicious bone in his body. The problem is not with the intent – its with the decision to send someone towards the board at that angle and that speed that needs to be eliminated.
All I’m saying is (and I said this with Hossa/Hamhuis and Ovi/Campbell), suspension or not, the league needs to make a statement that pushing players from behind into the boards is unacceptable. Broken collarbones and separated shoulders are bad, but one of these days something like this will result in an injury much more serious.
by Chris Burton on Oct 18, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand. I just think players make contact like Nick made several times a game and normally you both just go to the boards. I don’t even think Nick was going in there to “hit” Goc. If the league wants to slap his wrist to tell him to be more careful, that’s fine. But talking about a suspension or anything like that is just an emotional reaction because a guy was hurt. I’m sure if you watch closely you’ll see that play pretty regularly, just without the injury.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Right, I agree. I’m just saying that Goc was injured on a boarding call, and thus, to my understanding, should’ve been ejected. That would’ve resulted in a hearing, which is all I wanted.
A suspension to a first offender who didn’t use much force at all would be a bit of a farce, IMO.
by Chris Burton on Oct 18, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
*
Backstrom should’ve been ejected, rather.
by Chris Burton on Oct 18, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
No. I know Goc got injured, and it sucks, but that’s hockey. Backstrom pushed him from behind, but not terribly hard from what I saw. The call on the ice was correct.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
I still have the game DVR’d and I’ve watched the the hit a bunch. I’m not just going off my initial impression, FWIW.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Yeah. I’ve only seen it once, but it didn’t look that bad to me. The outcome looked bad, but that’s the kind of thing that happens a lot and 99% of the time doesn’t result in injury if the guy doesn’t fall funny.
Obviously, if this were say, Matt Cooke, instead of Nick Backstrom, I wouldn’t be giving him the benefit of the doubt.
'Cause the end of what it was is what it is right now...
Reposting here:
If you’re applying injury, then Weber made a player’s brain bleed during commission of a five minute major penalty. The player didn’t return to the NHL for over a year. Weber should have faced a ten-game suspension at least, by that reasoning.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Which incident was that?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Where he was fighting with Lilja. It was a fight, but fighting is a penalty. It’s an absurd example for an absurd standard; application of injury when considering a suspension.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but fighting is clearly a different kind of foul.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Carcillo got suspended for fighting Bradley because Bradley didn’t fight. Fighting is generally consensual, boarding is not. So when a guy jumps another guy and punches him in the face, that’s fine to suspend. But when guys agree to square off (and I think Lilja was the guy that really wanted that fight), you can’t suspend when he gets his lunch fed to him, unless you want to totally take fighting out of the game.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
In the general sense, I agree with you, especially if Lilja started the fight.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Throwing the punch after he went down was a dick move.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Weber has several instances that have made me cringe
:)
by Chris Burton on Oct 18, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Three punches and it’s not like he pulled them, either.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand that fighting is not the same as boarding, I promise. But the point is what Weber was doing is illegal and caused an injury. If you’re going to apply the injury standard to penalties, then strictly speaking, the commission of that penalty caused a very severe, potentially life-threatening injury. It’s mostly to illuminate one way in which the injury standard is ridiculous.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
More to the point, some players are more fragile than others. If Mike Green was injured on a penalty play, but Alex Ovechkin was the recipient of the same play and skated away, why should one player be punished more because Mike Green has a lower injury threshold? That doesn’t even begin to address the potential gamesmanship aspect.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s my problem with punishing injury. It has no incentive value and is punishing based on luck. I don’t think Backstrom had the requisite mental culpability to get suspended for that “hit.” I’m sure Preds fans disagree, but that’s the nature of fandom. Contact gets initiated before the puck battle starts all the time. NHL players expect the other guy to be braced and ready for it. When they aren’t, it can be unfortunate.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
by Rob Parker on Oct 18, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not a smart move by Lilja. I can’t reply to comments at your site right now, so I’m just going to have to engage over here.
I agree that fighting is different. I still think Shea Weber has done some things that easily could have caused far more harm than what Backstrom did, so just distinguishing it on an injury is shortsighted for Preds fans.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Oh, agreed, certainly. Weber has several instances that have made me cringe, though mostly from a couple years ago. Tootoo still does things I wish he wouldn’t. The difference is Weber hasn’t injured anyone on a non-fighting play in a long time, whereas Backstrom now has. Kind of a silly argument, though.
At any rate, I still have no idea what Lilja was thinking. Wow.
by Chris Burton on Oct 18, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
A brutally silly argument, and I’d expect much better from you, and Dirk. Who cares who has injured people, it’s who puts people at risk. Nick did something that happens all the time. Unless you want to crack down and suspend people by the bushel, you have to just accept the bad luck or else you are into the murky territory of suspending based on luck. Weber’s lucky nobody has been seriously hurt, and he’s not the only guy that plays that way, but you can’t let that be enough to absolve the behavior.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I may not be articulating my point very clearly, but I’m not advocating Backstrom be suspended (and I did advocate Hossa suspended w/ no injury to Hamhuis) based on Goc’s injury. In fact, I don’t think he should be suspended at all:
I’m just saying that Goc was injured on a boarding call, and thus, to my understanding, should’ve been ejected. That would’ve resulted in a hearing, which is all I wanted.
A suspension to a first offender who didn’t use much force at all would be a bit of a farce, IMO.
by Chris Burton on Oct 18, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the automatic suspension is only if it’s a head injury. That’s why the little cut Kaleta got was enough to get AO booted, but maybe i have the rule wrong.
There are plenty of comments at OTF that say this is worse than the Hossa hit. I can’t possibly see how someone could reach that conclusion.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Including one of yours. How do you advocate to suspend Hossa, but not Backstrom, when the Backstrom hit is worse?
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
Can’t be on record, Hossa’s was absolutely clean before that point, as far as I know.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box
by Knee high to a duck on Oct 18, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I’m to the point of confusing even myself, but at least the puck was in play with the Hossa hit. Laich and Bouillon are dealing with the puck in this instance, Backstrom just pushes Goc somewhat away from the play.
by Chris Burton on Oct 18, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is a major reason I think Nick was just starting to fight for body position. He was coasting, didn’t really follow through, and certainly didn’t launch the guy face first into the boards.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
I’m not a fan of an increased suspension culture and I think perhaps suspensions should only be doled out the intent of the act is clearly obvious.
Dangerous actions that result from high speed hockey plays should still be punished though, I’d just prefer they stay within that game. Give Backstrom a double major, 5 min, or even a game ejection, but keep it contained to the game it occured in if the intent isn’t clear.
I thought the hit looked bad when I saw it, deserved a penalty, and I wouldn’t have been enraged if it was harsher. I know if that same play happened to one of the capitals, the tone of this discussion would be very different.
It definitely deserved a penalty, but I don’t think he should have gotten tossed. That’s where it gets tricky. If there was a 4 minute boarding PIM that’s what I would suggest, but I don’t think it exists. So you are looking at a 2 or a 5. I could live with 5, as long as it doesn’t come with an automatic game misconduct.
Lockout talk makes me want to go out and choke an old lady - Elliotte Friedman
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