Sunday Caps Clips: Like Sherman Through Atlanta
by J.P. on Jan 10, 2010 9:37 AM EST
in Caps Clips
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PrintYour savory breakfast links:
- Recaps and other assorted musings on last night's thrashing of Atlanta from us, Vogs, DCEx, Joe B., Ed Frankovic, Peerless, FFOD, RMNB, RTR, Cap Centre, Ice Man (Thrashers) and Tarik (blog, gamer)
- Maybe the Caps should fly in on game day more often. [CI]
- "They want to make it happen," in which "they" are the Caps and "it" is trading for Ilya Kovalchuk (Winter Classic note, too). [Ottawa Sun]
- Peerless hands out mid-season awards. [Peerless]
- A look at the Caps' AHL prospects at the season's midpoint. [Hockey's Future]
- Make it a team-record dozen wins in a row for the Bears, who managed to overcome a relatively poor game from Braden Holtby (he got shelled for two goals against on just 35 shots) en route to a 3-2 victory. [Patriot-News, HBH]
- Local pond hockey is a beautiful thing. [OFB]
- Finally, happy 20th birthday to American Hero John Carlson, and happy 30th to Rastislav Stana.
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Can “Malkin to the Kings” be trusted? Caps/Wild just doesn’t sound exciting at all. Besides, can NBC actually handle a game with two Backstroms and two Schultzes who wear the same number?
And really, while offensively a team with Ovechkin and Kovalchuk could be scarier than it already is, why would we make that deal? Offense isn’t exactly a problem here.
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
Besides, can NBC actually handle a game with two Backstroms and two Schultzes who wear the same number?
Probably not, but it’d be damn funny to watch them try.
Agreed on Kovalchuk. What do we need Kovalchuk for?
No Alex, no ratings. Know Alex, know ratings.
My question to both of you is…
When is adding Ilya Kovalchuk ever bad, whether you need him or not? So he plays on the second line, every other team in the league would be crapping their pants at the idea of having to face a lineup like that.
And if he were a rental? So what? Do you think Kovy wouldn’t be drooling over the idea of a legit cup run? Might be the only chance he ever has, period.
Agreed on Kovalchuk. What do we need Kovalchuk for?
Everyone in the NHL needs Kovalchuk, and only a select few are going to be able to actually make a run at getting him.
That being said, I take that whole article with big grain of salt, considering the source.
When is adding Ilya Kovalchuk ever bad, whether you need him or not?
When it costs what it will cost.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jan 10, 2010 10:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I can imagine maybe one of Varly/Neuvy/Holtby, Alzner/Carlson, and our 1st.
I also like jumping out of tall buildings.
http://twitter.com/sasanmousavi <-- My two cents.
by Steck It Out on Jan 10, 2010 10:12 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think GMGM would balk at the Alznerson part. (And so would I). Throw Semin in and you’ve got a deal.
That’s what I was thinking, maybe he could be Semin’s replacement that doesn’t leave the trail of inconsistent crap behind him.
Revenge is a dish best served cold.
Kovalchuk can be inconsistent, and trading Semin in the division = a lot of games against an inconsistent guy who’s going to be consistent against us.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Jan 10, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
Kovalchuk’s pretty consistent. He’s had one three game stretch with no points and one two game stretch this season.
I thought there was a knack on him, but maybe that was just earlier in his career.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Jan 10, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
No, yeah, that stat kind of turns me on him, and if I knew we could get him just for Semin/Fehr, I’d have a hard time saying no.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Jan 10, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Semin’s much better defensively. At this point in their careers, I’m not sure Kovy is much of an upgrade over Semin. His points and goals are higher, but he’s got a ridiculous shooting percentage right now, while comparatively, Semin’s is a little on the low side.
Moreover, Semin’s younger, cheaper, locked into a contract next year, and he’s a point per game player in the playoffs thus far.
Why exactly would you trade this guy for Kovalchuk?
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
I agree. To me, Kovalchuk only makes sense if the team keeps Semin because a first line with Ovechkin and Backstrom and a second line Kovalchuk and Semin would be impossible to defend against by giving the Caps two elite scoring lines. You move Semin for Kovalchuk and you get a bit better this year, but hurt yourself next year.
At the same time I don’t see Atlanta wanting Semin back for Kovalchuk. I would imagine they’d want depth, and younger, cheaper players.
by David Getz on Jan 10, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The issue I have with picking up Kovy is the whole “diminishing marginal benefit” aspect. There is only so much ice time to go around, particularly on the power play. For any given PP opportunity, the Caps have 3-4 guys who skate at least a minute, and two guys who skate more like 1:45-2:00. Since you’ve got to have at least one guy who can set up in front of the net (Knuble, Laich or Fehr), and you’ve got to have one guy to take the faceoff (Backis, Laich, or perhaps Flash), where does that leave Kovy?
It’s a nice problem to have, but I think a Kovalchuk acquisition would simply be gilding the wrong part of the lily.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
I agree – I’m not in favor of adding Kovalchuk in any practical or logistical sense, because I just don’t see how that could work out as being the best course of action for the team. That said, I think it’s hard to argue the team wouldn’t benefit from having a guy like him (going full Nylander back to sparkly’s “What do we need Kovalchuk for?” comment.
Well, that’s kind of like asking a family of four with a Ferrari F430 why they bought a Porsche 911 GT2 instead of a minivan.
The answer of course is, “Because it’s awesome.”
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
No, it’s like asking a family of four who is racing against other families of four for the family-of-four-racing-championship-of-the-world why they bought a Porsche instead of a minivan.
by sixsevenfiftysix on Jan 10, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
If you want to get technical, it’s really more like adding a supercharger to your Mustang when your brakes are shot and your tires are bald. You’d be better off spending that $2k elsewhere.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
Great game out in your ’hood last night. Good comeback. Michalek has really become quite the defenseman – or so it appears.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
Hell of a comeback. I’m convinced Bryz would have saved a couple of those shoot out goals had he been in net.
Appearances do not deceive on Michalek. He’s been my favorite Yote for several years now. Z has always played much older/smarter than his chronological age. He does a lot that many times go unnoticed by the casual fan. Very rarely out of position.
A man gotta have a code
I remember someone said he’s basically just Milan Jurcina…
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
I’m not sure Waddell trades him within the SE but…
If the Caps offer up Semin/1st Rnd pick/Osala for Kovy- does waddel bite? Is it worth it ?
Obviously semins future with us is questionable and we would be giving having him for next year to have a spring run with kovy.
" 60 percent of the time...it works everytime"
by shwedy on Jan 10, 2010 10:25 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
from the thrashers’ perspective, semin seems to pose a lot of the same problems as kovy longterm (flighty winger, UFA after next season, KHL flight risk). i’m not opposed to making a move for kovalchuk—and i think atlanta will have a hard time getting top value for him—but the pieces the caps can send (also including goalies) don’t seem to fit with the thrashers’ needs.
by Natty Bumppo on Jan 10, 2010 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
i’m don’t think any of our keepers are better prospects than pavelec.
by Natty Bumppo on Jan 10, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
and you’re so certain that fellow prospects neuvy/varly are superior, you’d trade kovalchuk for one of them? no thanks if i’m waddell.
by Natty Bumppo on Jan 10, 2010 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
They’ve both fared better in the NHL than Pavelec. FTR, I don’t think he’d want a goalie either, and Pavelec is a great prospect, I’m just throwin out ideas here.
okay. and i’m just saying that both of the assets you’re offering (semin, goalie prospect) aren’t in line with the thrashers’ top needs (top skater prospects on O and D, or established players without semin’s baggage and 2011 asking price). i’d love to see the caps make a push for kovy with a goalie, a fehr/flash and some picks…but i don’t think that gets it done either. if i’m waddell on the phone with GMGM i want nothing short of carlson/alzner plus multiple picks.
by Natty Bumppo on Jan 10, 2010 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
I think at the deadline Waddell will be looking for someone to replace Kovy and his offense. I think we could get a deal done without touching our goalies or our dmen( Carlson/Alzner).
I don’t really buy into trade rumors especially when the Caps are involved BUT…
There’s no team looking to move at the deadline that can offer more then the Caps or that has the cap room. If we offered a player like Semin- could any team counter with a better offer?
There aren’t really any teams that could offer a player like Semin without jeopardizing their ability to win….but we could.
To me the goalies are untouchable ( see varly’s injuriy history) and so far the two d-men.
Would Waddell take a combo of Semin/Osala or Semin/Fehr with a pick-how about we throw in #26 lol?
" 60 percent of the time...it works everytime"
There’s no team looking to move at the deadline that can offer more then the Caps or that has the cap room. If we offered a player like Semin- could any team counter with a better offer?
yes, if you believe chicago is willing to send a combination of barker, byfuglien and/or versteeg.
by Natty Bumppo on Jan 10, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
And then permanently fuck themselves in regards to the Salary cap which they are already over for next year? Then again, the way things are, they might be thinking Stanley Cup or bust.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Jan 10, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
If you look past the numbers, Pavelec has been tremendous in several games this season for Atlanta. It’s sort of a similar situation with Neuvirth – he may allow five goals some games, but he tries to keep his team in it the best he can.
I also like jumping out of tall buildings.
http://twitter.com/sasanmousavi <-- My two cents.
by Steck It Out on Jan 10, 2010 10:49 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
reasons why the thrashers won’t be moving any time soon. their arena and ownership deals, in such a wealthy city, make it very unlikely (ala the caps in 2007).
by Natty Bumppo on Jan 10, 2010 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
What’s sad is that outside of Kovalchuk, goalie is their strongest position. They need everything, because what they have is all just a bunch of average.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Jan 10, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
I disagree. I think Atlanta’s defense is pretty solid, and I’d rank it ahead of goaltending now that Pavlec’s fallen off.
by David Getz on Jan 10, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I more mean with a healthy Lehtonen. The team isn’t mediocre, but they’re definitely average across the board, and I don’t think they need one position more than any other.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Jan 10, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
from the thrashers’ perspective, semin seems to pose a lot of the same problems as kovy longterm (flighty winger, UFA after next season, KHL flight risk)
Kovalchuk’s not flighty and the KHL isn’t a threat at this point for him.
by flighty i really meant effort inconsistent. as a player, kovalchuk is a difficult big money investment for some of the same reasons we gripe about semin as a big money investment (maybe with fewer headaches but more dollar signs?).
and can you say confidently that the KHL isn’t on kovalchuk’s radar heading into UFA? if he really wants the pay day that’s been discussed—and i don’t discount the difference of a few million dollars—the KHL is at least on the table.
by Natty Bumppo on Jan 10, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
I think the KHL is a back up option for him. He’s been here for a while, he’s been one of the best forwards in the league while he’s been here. What point is it for him to go to the KHL and light up those Russian defenders for even bigger numbers?
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Jan 10, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
i sort of agree, but again i can’t discount what the difference in ~$2 million/year means to a professional. it’s got to be far more likely that he hits $10 mil in russia than in the US, right?
by Natty Bumppo on Jan 10, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
And that’s completely discounting the tax issue.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Jan 10, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
it’s got to be far more likely that he hits $10 mil in russia than in the US, right?
I don’t know, I believe the highest KHL payroll is about $22-25M USD. Even given the different tax structures, I think it’s far from a sure thing.
But I also think Kovalchuk’s far more interested in playing the best league in the world than milk his UFA status for every dollar it’s worth.
I have faith in Kovalchuk bringing it when the chips are down. He’s pretty obviously been beaten down by a crappy situation in Atlanta, but I have complete faith he’d bring the effort in the playoffs. Now, I could see that leading to “gripping the stick too tight” and less production that he’s capable of, but I’m not concerned about the effort level.
Would I commit 100 mil to Kovalchuk? No chance, if I’m the Caps. But for the Cup run, I’d love him.
and can you say confidently that the KHL isn’t on kovalchuk’s radar heading into UFA?
I would be absolutely shocked if Kovalchuk’s seriously considering the KHL between the league’s financial issues and his interest in the NHL. He’s like Ovechkin in the sense that he wants to play in the best league in the world.
I mean, never say never, and all that, but I’d be shocked.
Would I commit 100 mil to Kovalchuk? No chance, if I’m the Caps. But for the Cup run, I’d love him.
well there we absolutely agree (and you’ve seen far more of him in atlanta than i have!). it gets back to a question of whether they want what we’re offering and vice versa, which i have a hard time envisioning.
by Natty Bumppo on Jan 10, 2010 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
The problem with your theory is that, when given the opportunity, Kovy bombed terribly in the playoffs. Yes, he’s been worn down by playing in the ATL but. . .
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
I don’t think he bombed, I think his team wasn’t very good and was awfully coached, and it was four games three years ago. Not exactly impressive on his part, but not something that would scare me off either.
This may all be true, but when you’re talking about a guy like Kovy, and you’re batting around names like Semin and Carlzner in return, you’re discussing a guy who ought to be able to push his team to winning at least one game.
Semin almost singlehandedly won us a few games in the playoffs the last couple of years. I’m not sure I want to give that, plus some additional pieces, for a rental of uncertain playoff provenance.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
Kovalchuk has been a stud for Russia in international play. Maybe you’d say that he tries harder for his country than his NHL team but I see a guy that has the ability to pick up his game in big moments… when his team isn’t a sham. That ATL team had been limping for months and had to make some desperate moves just to sneak into the playoffs. You can’t put their loss all on Kovy; that was the easiest first round upset to pick in ages.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Agreed on Kovalchuk. What do we need Kovalchuk for?
There once was a team called the “Yankees” of “New York.” They had one of the better shortstops in baseball. But then they acquired the best shortstop in baseball. They didn’t need two shortstops, but the two players were so good they found a way to fit them both into their lineup.
And then they were never heard from again.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 10, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
Fun analogy, but different business models. Yankees buy their teams in free agency with no salary cap; we’re talking a trade of the future here.
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
Salary Cap Free League.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Jan 10, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
That wasn’t the question. The question isn’t “what would Kovalchuk cost?” The question is “what do the Caps need him for?” In other words, “what would he bring?”
Ain’t a team in hockey that could thumb their nose at what Kovalchuk could bring — that could say “Kovalchuk doesn’t improve this team.” Not one.
Sure, he may come too dear. The cost could be too high. But can anyone really say that he wouldn’t improve the roster? That’s he wouldn’t cause the Caps to score a lot more goals?
8-6 wins count just the same as 3-2 wins.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 10, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And let’s not forget that by getting the best shortstop in baseball, they not only got him for themselves, but kept him away from a team that could be their biggest rival for a World Series. We’re looking at the same thing with Kovalchuk.
by sixsevenfiftysix on Jan 10, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
But that team that was their biggest rival then went on to win 2 world series before the Yankees won with that shortstop, despite not having won a world series for 86 prior to that.
Obviously, but it’s equally obvious that getting Rodriguez and keeping him from the Red Sox didn’t make the Yankees worse compared to them.
It’s about the mentality.
by sixsevenfiftysix on Jan 10, 2010 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
It’s already been said that the players on the Caps we have are more than capable of making the playoffs. Now, it’s to find out who can help us win there, and can Kovalchuk do that? I don’t know, because he’s only been there what, once?
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Jan 10, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
If you get swept, you get swept as a team. I don’t know how Kovalchuk would react in this system in the playoffs. Maybe that makes him worth the risk of trying him as a rental before you handcuff yourself to him in a longterm deal in free agency (just thinking out loud, not really trying to suggest it).
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Jan 10, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
What do we need Kovalchuk for?
So no one else gets him.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jan 10, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Well, there is that. How much is that worth? As a comparable to the Pronger deal last year, Caps didn’t feel the price was worth it.
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
I don’t think it’s worth a ton, but it’s a consideration. This ain’t Yanks/Sox, but if another Eastern contender was close to getting him, you pay attention.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jan 10, 2010 12:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I was just thinking the same thing. Do any of the other Eastern Conference contenders have the cap room/assets? The Devils or Rangers with a goal-scorer like Kovalchuk would be a big threat on the playoffs.
My question exactly. I’m thinking about the Guerin situation last year, when it killed that the Pengiuns got him and went on to win.
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
This team doesn’t need more offense, it needs more blueline help. Kovy is a stud, but giving up a ton for a rental offensive player makes no sense to me.
A man gotta have a code
by Carl Putnam on Jan 10, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Finally, someone speaks some sense.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
I dunno. There are some people in this thread who are discussing it like it’s a good idea.
It’s a great fantasy hockey trade. . . Otherwise, not so much.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
I’m still reading this whole thread but I can’t believe nobody has mentioned the really tantalizing trade asset mentioned in that article… Steve Staios.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
I don’t know enough to know if you’re being legit or snarkful. Although I do seem to recall some discussion during the Edmonton game, so I’m guessing serious. Was he the guy who did all the shot blocking in that game?
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
Staios is a steady defensive-defenseman. He would help our penalty kill, and would be a huge upgrade over Erskine.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
The rumour mill has been hinting at Souray would be the deal GMGM makes, but who knows how much credibility is in that. Especially when Souray stated this week he wouldn’t be opposed to management asking him for a trade. Probably has to name teams he would be interested in going to.
Promote the game, it's the NHL, not SCHL
but who knows how much credibility is in that.
that rumor has a 3.1% chance of being correct…in other words, slightly less than picking a team for souray out of a hat.
by Natty Bumppo on Jan 10, 2010 8:30 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Remember all those rumors that the Caps wanted Chimera, and were willing to trade away Chris Clark?
Yeah, me neither.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 10, 2010 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
No snark. He’d be a big upgrade for our D corps. And he’s affordable.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
I was wondering if anyone else caught that. Staios is the name that really caught my eye. I would love if the Caps could pick him up.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Jan 10, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
I agree (hence the original question way back when). Just following JP’s point about keeping someone from the opposition. I don’t really expect the Caps to end up with him.
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
This team doesn’t need more offense
Can’t agree with that half of the sentiment. There’s no such thing as too many goals scored.
It’s about goal differential. At this point, the Caps would probably have to add one of the 20 best forwards in hockey* to significantly improve their offense. Of course, Kovalchuk is one of those players, so that would work just fine. On the other hand, there are probably 50 or 60 defensemen who would significantly improve the team’s D*, and they would cost less to acquire.
So sure, it’s easier and cheaper to significantly upgrade the defense. But that doesn’t mean the team shouldn’t upgrade the offense if the opportunity presents.
* most of these players are not available for trade.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 10, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
I hate the idea of the Wild just because they are the defensive team that’s not too non-traditional-hockey-fan friendly. Can’t argue with the location though. The Golden Gopher stadium would be far better than these baseball stadiums (which I don’t like).
Revenge is a dish best served cold.
The Wild are really the only team that doesn’t need to find a jersey to look nostalgic on the pond, though, as all of their sweaters are awesome like that. I get that some people don’t like trap hockey, but really, I’m all for any hockey. Trap hockey doesn’t bug me if you have the right players in the system. It’s not super easy to execute, and you have to have faster players capable of either a sustained forecheck or a quick odd-man-rush to score in it. Even if you play the trap, you STILL HAVE TO SCORE to win, and trap teams know that.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Jan 10, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
I get that some people don’t like trap hockey, but really, I’m all for any hockey
There’s no brand of hockey that would turn people like you or me off. It’s the casual and non-fans that these big networks are trying to attract. Come new years, a trap wouldn’t force someone like you or me to turn the channel to a bowl game, but it would however, turn others away. I just don’t want to see the ratings go down, and it would be nice to see the Caps play a team that would compliment their style.
Revenge is a dish best served cold.
by bigmac1124 on Jan 10, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Might not be entirely comparable, but at the time, I couldn’t wrap my mind around having Jagr and Bonzai on the same team either.
Revenge is a dish best served cold.
Might not be entirely comparable, but at the time, I couldn’t wrap my mind around having past his prime Jagr and Bonzai on the same team either.
there you go …
"Bobby. Can you fly, Bobby?" -Clarence
"Clarence, no!" - Bobby
by Christoph J on Jan 10, 2010 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
Jagr wasn’t past his prime in DC. He was pretty productive his first year even playing hurt a lot of the time and he showed what he still had left when he went to New York.
i know … it’s still a situation I’m so resentful of. how about I substitute ‘lost his mullet power’ instead of ‘past his prime’
"Bobby. Can you fly, Bobby?" -Clarence
"Clarence, no!" - Bobby
by Christoph J on Jan 10, 2010 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
Nothing for the rest of this season. Just put us a lot closer to the top. We have plenty of room for ‘deadline deals’.
so under your semin proposition, you’d be okay losing semin next year even if the caps couldn’t lock up kovy to a multi-year extension (which would be really tight)?
by Natty Bumppo on Jan 10, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
How on Earth do you know that at this point?
by mechanicsville on Jan 10, 2010 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
Nice
Was jealously reading that OFB article on the local action going on J.P. Nostalgia hit me hard. I am envious of those folks playing out their on the C&O Canal. Who doesn’t get excited about that???
Anyone want to lace their skates up for some friendly pond hockey? Check This …
"Bobby. Can you fly, Bobby?" -Clarence
"Clarence, no!" - Bobby
I’ve been so impressed with the overall play by Ovechkin and the way he has been back checking.
Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.
That, on the other hand, makes me cringe even though I admire it.
Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.
by zephyr on Jan 10, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
For real, weren’t we already up a bunch when he did that? Love the effort Ovie, but channel your inner Laing in a more important situation!
by BradleyFightingVehicle on Jan 10, 2010 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
This
"Bobby. Can you fly, Bobby?" -Clarence
"Clarence, no!" - Bobby
by Christoph J on Jan 10, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
The caps are not going to trade a top prospect fir a kovi rental. Nor are the going to trade semin within the division. Just not going to happen. Put me in the camp of thinking we dint need kovi to win the cup. Let’s hold our powder for a dman or defensive forward.
If we were to move Semin and Fehr/Flash/an offensive forward, I think it’s not worth it, because it would cripple having three solid threat lines.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Jan 10, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
The only reason to get Kovy is to have a literally unstoppable offense. Moving Semin completely undercuts that; it makes our O only slightly more powerful than it already is. No point giving up Semin for Kovy.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Which is kind of what I was saying. I was trying to come up with lines without Semin and someone else, which I’d seen suggested, and even with Kovalchuk, our offense looked too top heavy and two lines would be mediocre at best (In terms of scoring).
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
I can see the Caps moving anyone but Carlson and Alzner to get a player of Kovalchuk’s caliber.
Put me in the camp of thinking we dint need kovi to win the cup.
The Caps don’t. But his addition makes it more likely.
Let’s hold our powder for a dman or defensive forward.
That assumes one’s going to be available. The last thing you want to do is hold off on Trade A because you’re waiting on Trade B, and then have Trade B never materialize.
I disagree getting Kovy makes it more likely. He’s not bringing a skill set this team is lacking. In addition, the top 2 lines on any team in the playoffs are more likely to get bottled up in the later rounds. That is why the Chimera deal has me excited.
GMGM is stealth. The more I hear the Caps name mentioned the more I highly doubt a Kovy to DC deal will happen. My only concern with GMGM is he’s been much better at acquiring good offensive talent than doing so on the blueline.
A man gotta have a code
I disagree getting Kovy makes it more likely. He’s not bringing a skill set this team is lacking. In addition, the top 2 lines on any team in the playoffs are more likely to get bottled up in the later rounds.
He’s a phenomenally talented player; arguably the best scorer in the world outside of Ovechkin. There’s no way his presence doesn’t make the Capitals a better team (assuming health, lack of slump, etc). I agree that Caps have more pressing needs that upgrading their offense, but that doesn’t mean that upgrading their offense doesn’t make them a better team than they are now, all else being equal. Offenses are more likely to be shut down in the playoffs, but a top six that sports Kovalchuk in addition to Ovechkin, Semin, and Backstrom is less likely to get shut down than one that doesn’t.
He’s a phenomenally talented player; arguably the best scorer in the world outside of Ovechkin.
I don’t disagree with you. I love Kovy. If anything I think his two-way play is underrated. It is a pity his talent has been wasted playing for that franchise. However, I don’t see it as some huge upgrade on this specific team. There is only one puck to go around.
The issue for me is cost versus benefit. I see way too much cost and not enough benefit in such a deal unless Waddell flat loses his mind. Well I guess that last part is possible given his past history.
If Semin isn’t part of that deal then the price in young talent is going to be ridiculous. I’m even less interested then in some ways.
A man gotta have a code
Kovy's two-way play of late
Maybe he’s been beaten down, but the Thrashers were in the thick of the playoff hunt until their recent collapse. What’s the excuse for this sort of play?
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
Every time prior to last season I watched he didn’t look like a cherry picker a la Mario. I’m not sure where his head has been at since Anderson arrived last year. Bird Watcher folks know better than I do though.
If you are correct, then it just adds fuel to our argument against the trade.
A man gotta have a code
I don’t watch him enough, but I’m guessing they do, and those two clips are really bad. Neither clip is an “honest mistake;” they’re both lack-of-effort plays. Maybe he steps up that effort if he’s more motivated playing here in DC. However, if he wasn’t motivated by having the “C” on his sweater and playing for a team in the thick of the playoff hunt, I’m not sure what he needs.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
I think he’s probably dealing with a lot mentally right now. Has to decide whether to stay playing for the Thrash. I’ve seen same thing when co-workers are deciding to stay or go from a workplace in the near future. Once the decision is made, doesn’t matter what the final decision is, their performance improves.
Thick of the playoff hunt is not what it is. It’s staying in contention for the 8th spot if a lot of things fall your way, followed by a quick exit. He knows that roster ain’t winning squat. And that is exactly why he hasn’t signed an extension yet.
A man gotta have a code
the Bears, [who] managed to overcome a relatively poor game from Braden Holtby (he got shelled for two goals against on just 35 shots) en route to a 3-2 victory.
If giving up 2 goals on 35 shots is getting shelled — that sounds like a pretty high standard to me.
Swing and a miss on the high inside sarcasm.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
by D'ohboy on Jan 10, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Shelled on 2 goals?
the Bears, [who] managed to overcome a relatively poor game from Braden Holtby (he got shelled for two goals against on just 35 shots) en route to a 3-2 victory.
If giving up 2 goals on 35 shots is getting shelled — that sounds like a pretty high standard to me.
figured I should repost with a subject heading since it’s not on previous topic
I believe someone’s tongue was in their cheek when that was being written.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 10, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
I believe someone’s head was in their ass when THIS was being written.
by sixsevenfiftysix on Jan 10, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Random but fun observation....
Last night’s game was #666 in the NHL this season.
No Alex, no ratings. Know Alex, know ratings.
What’s the Bruin’s cap situation look like this year? They’ve got two first round picks to trade for Kovy, including one that will no doubt be high up (thanks, Toronto), plus they’re not lacking in D. Offense is what they need now to stay high in the playoff race.
Savard needs to stay healthy first.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
Ding, ding, ding. I feel bad for the guy.
"The Caps fan doesn't say, 'is the glass half full' or 'is the glass half empty'. He wonders when the glass is going to spill."
I don’t. But then again, I’m a Habs fan :P
And if they get Kovy…ugh. That’s my only (completely illogical) argument for picking up Kovalchuk – so the Bruins don’t.
I'm a bit of a leafs fan, so I'm only joking :)
But really, the habs? Ick.
I am easily satisfied with the very best
I do actually like White (although he needs to not grow facial hair :P) – but hey, if I liked an entire team because of one player, I’d like the Penguins too ;)
Plus I like the Habs! Makes it hard. FWIW, I hate the Bruins more than the Leafs…for now…
Nah, the hatred for the Leafs is still there, trust me. I just go with whomever presents the biggest threat to the Habs at the moment ;)
Ouch.
I don’t know if you’ve heard it, but this video from Bloge Salming is hilarious
I am easily satisfied with the very best
The Leafs are the easiest team to hate in the entire NHL. They’re all of the sense of entitlement of the Yankees or Dallas Cowboys, without any of the success.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
Yeah, I find it a lot easier to hate teams WITH success than without. Which is why the Leafs are probably my least-hated team in the Eastern Conference outside of Washington.
by sixsevenfiftysix on Jan 10, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
I find it easiest to hate teams that behave as though they’re successful, when they’re actually not.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
Yeah but...
Doug Gilmour.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Leafs ain’t the Yankees — they’re the Cubs.
Leafs ain’t the Cowboys — they’re the Jets.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 10, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
But neither the Cubs nor the Jets have the same sense of entitlement. Despite sucking with a tight seal for some time now, the Leafs organization and their fans still believe that they’re entitled to be good/get media coverage/etc.
Cubs and Jets fans have both, to some degree, accepted their lot in life as second-class citizens. They’re not clinging to faded glory that is now over four decades old. Moreover, neither of those two teams are on national TV every single week, regardless of their record. I don’t know if you ever watch HNIC, but the first half of it is almost always Leaf-centric, and the second half usually involves a fair amount of “what went wrong for the Leafs tonight.”
In terms of entitlement and media coverage, the Leafs are still most similar to the Yankees and Cowboys – even down to their self-appointed status as “Canada’s Team.” In my opinion, the thing that makes the Leafs obnoxious is the fact that their self-esteem so far outstrips their actual performance.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
Ah, so we’ve settled on it:
Toronto Maple Leafs = Notre Dame Fighting Irish
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 10, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
(at least the Leafs are consistently one of the 30 best teams in their league…)
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 10, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hahahaha! True.
The only way this doesn’t work is that the Leafs used to be as stridently Protestant as the Fighting Irish were Catholic.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
Hell, it works down to the grammatical failure of the name. “Leafs” ain’t the plural of leaf, and “Irish” ain’t even a noun.
If only we could use this theory to make “Kelts” out of the “Sel – tiks”
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 10, 2010 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
Not to be contrary for the sake of being contrary, but Irish can be used as a noun
by sixsevenfiftysix on Jan 10, 2010 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
I think it’s pretty awesome that in a game with eight goals, Ovechkin only had one assist. That says a lot about the Caps’ depth.
Dallas Stars 4 Life: Stars Blogging From Hockeyville, Iowa
by Brad_Richards_Rocks on Jan 10, 2010 1:45 PM EST reply actions
This.
CSN showed a graphic last night listing all the Caps 10+ goal scorers, very impressive. Bradley’s not too far off with 7. Chimera has 9, but the first 8 came with CBJ.
by BradleyFightingVehicle on Jan 10, 2010 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
They’ve already got as many double digit goal scorers this year as they did all of last year (9).
"I must be hallucinating. What's a good thing for a hangover?"
"Drinking heavily the night before."
by Bald Pollack on Jan 10, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
We do not need Kovalchuk!!!
We scored 8 goals without AO last night - if he had gotten in on the action, we would have had 9 or 10……
Why do we need offense? I prefer to find someone on defense, if anything at all.
Rock the Red! Rock the White! Rock the Blue! Rock the Pens!
by RedskinFan4Life on Jan 10, 2010 2:17 PM EST reply actions
I’d tend to think GMGM agrees with you – just think about his philosophy in the draft. You take the best player available. Technically we didn’t “need” Huet but we got him anyway. IF the right offer came along to acquire someone like Kovalchuk, I think he’d go for it.
That being said, I have a feeling Waddell would want too much for Kovalchuk to make it worthwhile. If GMGM didn’t give up the farm for Pronger, someone who would have filled a more pressing need at the time, he’s certainly not going to do so for Kovalchuk.
How would getting Kovy make the team better — both NOW and in YEARS TO COME?
Rock the Red! Rock the White! Rock the Blue! Rock the Pens!
by RedskinFan4Life on Jan 10, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Kovy undoubtedly would make the Caps better, just not as much better as acquiring a defenseman.
It’s all about marginal cost versus marginal benefit. The marginal cost of Kovy is likely to be high, whereas his marginal benefit to the Caps is likely to be low. The marginal cost of a guy like Steve Staios is likely to be low, whereas his marginal benefit to the Caps (by essentially replacing Erskine in the lineup), is likely to be high. Moreover, picking up a guy like Staios allows the Caps to make at least one more significant move (Jere Lehtinen anyone?)
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
by D'ohboy on Jan 10, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’d actually be a little more excited about Lehtinen, but both of them would be pretty sweet.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
Step 1: Pick up Lehtinen.
Step 2: Stick him in a hyperbaric chamber until April.
Step 3: Unleash the PK.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
A man, a plan, a canal, Panama.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
One of the major failings of the English language is that the word “palindrome” isn’t one.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 10, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
I also like Lehtinen because of the Stanley Cup/Playoff experience. It’s an area the Caps really lack right now.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
The thing about Lehts and his injuries is that he makes sure he’s 100 percent before coming back, so he usually takes awhile.
Plus I don’t think he’d leave the Stars. That’s the type of guy he is. And I don’t want him to leave the Stars. If he did I’d probably cry.
Dallas Stars 4 Life: Stars Blogging From Hockeyville, Iowa
by Brad_Richards_Rocks on Jan 10, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
I thought Lethtinen’s game had significantly fallen off and he has been injury prone, but I haven’t been paying close attention to most of DAL.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
He’s currently sporting a 8.95 4v5 Behindthenet rating, which would place him first (by a ways) on the Caps amongst players with more than a handful of games played.
I’d see him as primarily a PK specialist/defensive shutdown guy.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
He’s played in 28/44 games. I’m not confident he’ll even be there when we really need him so it’s tough for me to accept giving up very much for him.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
That’s why the Stars gave him such a small contract. One year, 1.3 million.
Dallas Stars 4 Life: Stars Blogging From Hockeyville, Iowa
by Brad_Richards_Rocks on Jan 10, 2010 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
Totally valid point of view – I just think the upside is pretty big. Also, we really don’t need him until April. I’m sure we could get Al Gore to put him in a locked box until then.
Also, I think his injuries will make him relatively affordable.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
He's not what he used to be,
but he’s still effective. Dallas would be much worse than they are, without Lehts in the lineup.
Dallas Stars 4 Life: Stars Blogging From Hockeyville, Iowa
by Brad_Richards_Rocks on Jan 10, 2010 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
Brrrraaaaaaaaaiiiiiiinnnnsssssss
Even if his legs are gone, I want him for his brains. His sweet, sweet delicious brains.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
Exactly.
An entire team of Jere Lehtinen clones would win the Stanley Cup. He’s got an amazing brain for hockey.
Dallas Stars 4 Life: Stars Blogging From Hockeyville, Iowa
by Brad_Richards_Rocks on Jan 10, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
The Caps could really use the experience and savvy – sort of like what Fedorov brought to our skilled Russians, except for the checkers/penalty-killers.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
by essentially replacing Erskine in the lineup
This is my case here….thanks.
I’d like to see a tougher and faster defense. Anyone would be better than Erksy.
Rock the Red! Rock the White! Rock the Blue! Rock the Pens!
by RedskinFan4Life on Jan 10, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
Kovy undoubtedly would make the Caps better, just not as much better as acquiring a defenseman.
Rec’d.
I think the odds of the Capitals pursuing and landing Kovalchuk as the best course of action are very, very small and that it’d probably not be a good idea for the team. That said, I don’t see how anyone could say that having a talent like Kovalchuk on the roster wouldn’t help the Capitals or that the team doesn’t “need” him.
it seems to me that you are focusing on a single player only. I’m looking as a whole organization……
no doubt Kovy is a excellent individual player. but the Caps would have to give up a lot to get him. that’s the part i’m not down with. i’d prefer to continue to have a steady stream of depth quality players so we can be perennial contenders for years to come….not just a good team for 5 years or so then have to rebuild because we spent all our money/picks on one player.
Rock the Red! Rock the White! Rock the Blue! Rock the Pens!
by RedskinFan4Life on Jan 10, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
new link: ovie reports from verizon photo/video shoot. pretty funny stuff in there.
already put it up as a fanshot.
Official Ambassador for Nucks Misconduct.
"If Chuck Norris was up against 7 Rangers, he'd call Ryan Kesler."
GO CANUCKS GO!
She’s all the way ooot in BC. It’s like a 2-day time difference. :)
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
by D'ohboy on Jan 10, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
We need a defenseman……kovy would be good, but we have a bigger need (defense) in order to win the east/beat the penguins. while more offense is nice, giving up multiple fantastic prospects for more of what you already have is a waste (especially if it’s for only one year, keeping carlson and alzner will be worth it in a year)
Reason #1,000,000,000,000...I prefer hockey to football
Willis McGahee just scored a touchdown and when his teammates came to celebrate with him he shoved them away so he could do his dance. Not the first time I’ve seen a football player do that either. Would you ever see something like that in hockey? Even with his “hot stick” celebration Ovie was trying to get Green and others to join him.
by BradleyFightingVehicle on Jan 10, 2010 3:38 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Just say no to Kovy ---
Not what the Caps need to advance. Yes, it would be fun to watch Kovy, Ovy & Semin but this is a “one-year rental” and isn’t a good return on investment.
Looks like Chimera got a little bit of Jizz on his face.
by Bonzai on Jan 10, 2010 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It’s hockey bukkake.
You're the future of this team's defense Karl. . . Now get your ass to Manitoba!
by D'ohboy on Jan 10, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
another reason to love Sasha
he is invested in this team. I can’t believe we’re still talking about trading him! He may not be all-around better than Kovy, but they’re in the same sentence.
by DonnieKnutts on Jan 10, 2010 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
Example
Ilya Kovalchuk is hands down a better hockey player than Alex Semin.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
by Rob Parker on Jan 10, 2010 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
, but the distance is not great,
and trading Semin as part of a package for Kovy would be a giant mistake.
by DonnieKnutts on Jan 11, 2010 4:47 AM EST up reply actions
Steve Kolbe had this stat from last night:
Every single Washington forward (all twelve of them) had at least a point on the game last night. Ditto for four of six defensemen. Only Ersky and Shamo did not get a piece of the action.
IS KEPTIN NOW
I had a dream that John Carlson and Dwayne Roloson were killed together in a freak roller coaster accident… the entire Caps team was at the amusement park and figured it would be fun to take the little carts you sit in on the highway. Somehow they had engines.
I was relieved when I woke up. Happy birthday.
Frightening...
…but at least there’s no particular reason to think John Carlson will be going to an amusement park anytime soon…
Oh, no! Stay away John, stay away!
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 10, 2010 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
buh. It’s cached so I see it. Here’s the link. It woulda been funny if it worked.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 10, 2010 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
I might be coming late to this party but why is Bruce “Larry Brooks of the Great White North” Garrioch being taken seriously here?
If you've read this far...seek help.
Because any excuse to Rosterbate about Kovy is a good excuse.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
by Rob Parker on Jan 10, 2010 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec’d.
Familiar Rapports: Bald Pollack, F&B, Gould Old Days.
Lobbies: Osala, Perreault, Erskine, Pothier, Neuvirth, Flash.
Fan of: Mean Lars Backstrom, Line Mashing, Cake.
by Whiter Mage on Jan 10, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Ahh what the hell rec, rec, and uhhhh rec.
Поклон перед вашим капитаном!
by Knubles and Bits on Jan 11, 2010 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
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