Ranking the Capitals: #45
by J.P. on Sep 16, 2009 9:36 PM EDT
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PrintIn an effort to beat the summer doldrums, we're undertaking to rank - with your help - the Washington Capitals, from Ovechkin to, well, we'll see (only players under contract will be considered). The criteria is simple: who at this moment is the most valuable player in the organization who hasn't already been ranked? Put another way, if you could only keep one of the remaining players - because of what he brings on the ice or off it, his upside, what he could fetch in trade, and so on - who would it be? Consider age, potential, contract status, organizational depth, etc. - it's your call. And after you vote and defend your selection in the comments, help us out and suggest a name to add to the next poll. [Note: previous "Ranking the Capitals" posts can be found here."]
Welcome Jake Hauswirth to the list...
- Alex Ovechkin
- Nicklas Backstrom
- Mike Green
- Alexander Semin
- Semyon Varlamov
- Brooks Laich
- Karl Alzner
- Mike Knuble
- Tom Poti
- David Steckel
- John Carlson
- Jeff Schultz
- Brendan Morrison
- Tomas Fleischmann
- Michal Neuvirth
- Eric Fehr
- Boyd Gordon
- Jose Theodore
- Oskar Osala
- Shaone Morrisonn
- Brian Pothier
- Matt Bradley
- Anton Gustafsson
- Milan Jurcina
- Chris Bourque
- John Erskine
- Chris Clark
- Mathieu Perreault
- Braden Holtby
- Stefan Della Rovere
- Tyler Sloan
- Keith Aucoin
- Francois Bouchard
- Quintin Laing
- Jay Beagle
- Alexandre Giroux
- Andrew Gordon
- Sean Collins
- Josh Godfrey
- Joe Finley
- Trevor Bruess
- Kyle Wilson
- Steven Pinizzotto
- Jake Hauswirth
If this FanPost is written by someone other than one of the blog's editors, the opinions expressed in it do not necessarily reflect those of this blog or SB Nation.
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What’s the password this time, Natty? Mach Ziskovic?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Like I said, dude could have value teaching Juice how to get a point shot off.
A man must have a code.
I like Kane for next time. He may teach a thing or two to some prospects who have a decent chance of making the Caps some day (Beagle, Gordon, etc.)
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 17, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
And like my argument for Giroux he can make sure there will be a steady scoring presence and take some pressure off of the young guys on the team. I think the rookie line (or, 2/3 of it) is ready to take the next step and be important contributors on the team with lots of PP time but I don’t know that they are ready to be “the guys” for an AHL team with repeat Calder Cup Championship aspirations.
A man must have a code.
The password is “Viktor Dovgan,” but keep this between you and me.
by Moonage Daydream on Sep 17, 2009 7:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Remember kids, negative value is less than a small positive value. It’s even less than zero!
A kick in the head is worse than nothing at all.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 17, 2009 12:13 AM EDT reply actions
There’s no value in a guy never making the NHL. There is value in a guy with a minute chance.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
by Whiter Mage on Sep 17, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I have no value. =(
Winterion Game Studios
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by winterion on Sep 17, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yo Whiter Mage, I’m happy for you and I’mma let you finish, but Michael Nylander’s got one of the worst contracts of all time. Of all time.
A man must have a code.
by Rob Parker on Sep 17, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
So? This is you guys colluding on prospects with no value to vote for against Nylander. Don’t like Nylander? That’s fine. But bad contract or not, I’ll take an NHLer over a career ECHLer.
Also, Chris Pronger says hi.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
by Whiter Mage on Sep 17, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Serially? Chris Pronger is going to have a beast of a season for this year and probably two more. His contract isn’t great but he’s going to play big minutes and be a huge part of that team. Nyls is not going to play, when he does he won’t be a huge part of our success, and ultimately he PREVENTS the team from getting better. I don’t care what numbers he puts up this year; pick the most optimistic forecast you have for him and I guarantee you I can name a player that beats that production for cheaper.
With no Nyls GMGM has a shot at making a big time deadline deal move. With Nyls GMGM is going to spend the whole season trying to stay just under the cap, but won’t bank any cap space so to bring an impact player in requires shipping out a roster player (who is presumably helping the team). Just because Nyls is going to get an NHL paycheck and wear an NHL jersey next season does not make that valuable to the Caps.
Losing any of the other guys doesn’t help or hurt the team. Losing Nyls helps the team. How do you justify keeping a guy that makes your team worse? Because if he played he’d get a handful of points? If he was gone we’d have a guy that would get two handfuls of points, and still have some scratch left over. We could have resigned Fedorov without making him take a pay-cut, and we’d still be saving money on Nyls. I’m not in love with what Fedorov was giving us last year, but it sure as shit was more than what we got for Nyls. Fedorov was overpaid, more productive than Nyls, and cheaper than Nyls. Chew on that.
And you missed my awesome topical reference.
A man must have a code.
I don’t care what numbers he puts up this year; pick the most optimistic forecast you have for him and I guarantee you I can name a player that beats that production for cheaper.
And I won’t even cheat by using ELCs.
A man must have a code.
And they aren’t on this team. Thus, are not more valuable to his team.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
by Whiter Mage on Sep 17, 2009 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s assuming having Nylander on the team provides the Caps with positive value.
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 17, 2009 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
He provides more potential than any of these prospects, for this season and beyond.
I’m not disputing the fact you guys don’t like him. I’m not disputing the fact that our cap situation would be better without him. I am disputing the collusion, and I’m disputing the fact that none of those guys has an NHL career in them, and you guys know it. There’s an extreme off chance Nylander plays this season. If he does, he likely gets 20-40 points. Regardless of contract, that’s some value, in my eyes.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
by Whiter Mage on Sep 17, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I get what you’re saying. I just don’t see anyone who may produce as a negative.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
So a guy on a max salary that stayed healthy all year (so no cap relief or excuse) and had a stat line of 0-1-1 (and a secondary assist no less!) would have positive value for you. You’re just not considering opportunity cost.
A man must have a code.
No, I’m just not seeing any value in players who 1) aren’t worth squat on a trade market, 2) aren’t going to make the NHL.
A body is worth more than a scrap.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
you deem these players as “not worth squat,” but nylander has even less trade value…literally he’s untradeable.
the whole point of this exercise (from my point of view) has always been: would you trade player X for player Y.
sure…miskovic isn’t worth hardly anything on the trade market. but i could imagine a scenario. (college prospect throw-in? the caps just signed him 5 months ago, clearly they wanted him around.)
literally no team in the NHL would target nylander in a trade at his current contract. none. the caps would pay to give him away. bringing up trade value only strengthen’s the case of the anti-nylander mafia, IMO.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 17, 2009 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions
We have different opinions on how to judge value. I seem to with everyone. But it looks like 11 people agree with my view point. Jump on me all you want, but I don’t see what’s wrong with finding differences in why I think a guy is more valuable than you do.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
right, but i’m not jumping on you. you brought up “the trade market” in support of nylander, and the caps would not be (have not been) able to find a willing partner in a nylander trade.
by Natty Bumppo on Sep 17, 2009 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions
It wasn’t to support Nylander. I was saying that the prospects and Nyls have no trade value, and the second point was my point to prove (that they won’t make the NHL).
Right now, any of those guys is a throwaway in a deal. They’d say no to him, but he might be able to play. I prefer the on-ice value, in this case, to his off-ice.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
by Whiter Mage on Sep 17, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
BWF
So reading that link, getting to the various interpretations, and this reminded me of a quote:
Well there’s this passage I got memorized. Ezekiel 25:17. “The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.” I been sayin’ that shit for years. And if you ever heard it, it meant your ass. I never gave much thought what it meant. I just thought it was some cold-blooded shit to say to a motherfucker before I popped a cap in his ass. I saw some shit this mornin’ made me think twice. See now I’m thinkin’, maybe it means you’re the evil man. And I’m the righteous man. And Mr. 9 Milimeter here, he’s the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness. Or it could mean you’re the righteous man and I’m the shepherd and it’s the world that’s evil and selfish. Now I’d like that. But that shit ain’t the truth. The truth is you’re the weak. And I’m the tyranny of evil men. But I’m tryin’, Ringo. I’m tryin’ real hard to be a shepherd.
So my question is, who is the little boy? Nylander?
I think this website is the glazier, we are the shopkeeper, F&B and a few others are the little boy paid to break the window, and Nylander is the window.
Nylander is the replacement window, the other uses of the cap space and players we could have are the things we don’t see because we bought the replacement window. I can’t really take the analogy much further because the truth is nobody on this site is a player in the story. GMGM broke the window, ordered the new window, and is the shopkeeper, glazier, etc.
A man must have a code.
Actually Nyls is the glazier and the replacement window because he is the thing that is seen and the only person that profits from the broken window.
A man must have a code.
In terms of the team:
Nylander was the replacement window (like you said) for one previously broken (by GMGM like you said)
Ted is the shopkeeper, (and we are the shoppers)
The free-agent market is the glazier (what produced the window)
After the window was installed the shop was remodeled and now the window doesn’t close, making it worse than useless.
I actually like Nylander quite a bit. Just not his negative value to the Capitals organization.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I actually like him too. I got his autograph at Kettler last year. Seems like a good guy. It’s a shame this whole situation came about, but there’s no denying his contract hurts.
by Laich It Or Lump It on Sep 17, 2009 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I understand the contract, i just don’t see him (or anyone) as negative value. I have too much optimism, I guess.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
by Whiter Mage on Sep 17, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
George Bush doesn’t care about Michael Nylander
by Laich It Or Lump It on Sep 17, 2009 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions
There’s no value in a guy never making the NHL. There is value in a guy with a minute chance.
You are offered two houses, and you must take one.
House A is a tiny shack in the woods in Northern Alberta. It has no water, no electricity, and no access by road. The only way to get there is by helicopter followed by a day and a half hike. Oh, and due to recent changes in the Canadian national parks system, you are no longer allowed to go there at all.
House B is a beautiful house in a fabulous location. Its market value is 1.5 Million. You must take it subject to the mortgage, on which 5.5 Million is due this year and 3 Million next year. If you choose House B, you immediately incur all of that debt.
Which house sounds better?
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 17, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see how that’s relevant. But, House B, because i could live there.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
by Whiter Mage on Sep 17, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see how that’s relevant.
It’s the issue if something that has no value versus something that costs more than it returns in value, even if that value is positive.
I think a better example is this: someone offers me either a pair of basketball shoes free of charge or a $150 hockey stick for $500. The basketball shoes have absolutely no value to me because I don’t play basketball or wear basketball shoes casually and they can’t be re-sold. On the other hand, the hockey stick has value because I play hockey and I’d use it. But I’d still rather take the basketball shoes in that situation because (a) money is tight and I don’t have $500 to spend on a hockey stick and (2) if I were going to spend $500 on hockey sticks/equipment, I could do a lot better than getting one stick that’s worth $150. Ergo in this situation I’d rather have the shoes (no use) over the stick (some use) because of both the financial burden I incur if I take the stick and the fact that I could spend the money more efficiently elsewhere.
This is why I’d rather have any of the other players listed than Nylander, even if none of them ever play an NHL game.
I get that. I just disagree with the mindset. Maybe it’s easier for me to make the call because it’s not my money, and outside looking in, that’s what I’d rather have.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
by Whiter Mage on Sep 17, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
The “it’s not my money” argument doesn’t work as well in a salary cap era. The salary Nyles makes is no longer only Ted’s problem, it severely restricts the team’s ability to improve. The Cap space Nylander takes up is more valuable than his contribution to the team, hence his negative value.
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 17, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Why would you take a house that is hugely underwater and could only be sold for 1th of what you will owe on it right away? It will bankrupt you.
UNLESS you have the cash to pick up a mortgage that large and in that case you would still take house “A” and then buy any house anywhere else to live in.
Comment first, think second, read third.
I value on ice production at this point more than fiscal value. Consider all factors. You guys consider contract. That’s fine. You think that his contract outweighs everything. I get that. I don’t. I think the factors of potential (Yeah, he has more NHL potential than all of those guys) and the organizational depth at his position (Center – if Morrison or Backstrom get hurt, we have no depth).
With that money, could we have better? Yeah. But I’m going to look at the other factors more.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
by Whiter Mage on Sep 17, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m actually questioning your decision on picking house B. It seems most illogical.
As far as Nylander, I totally get your side of the argument and support that you’ve been voting for him all this time. I’m on the other side of the fence though and consider him to be worse than worthless to the Caps as trade bait or as far as the team goes. Even at depth I’d rather have someone else step in and wing it.
With that said, I hope he comes out and plays the most fantastic hockey he’s ever played in his life this season.
Comment first, think second, read third.
I think the major factor behind taking House B is because I’m sick and tired of living with my parents, and any amount of debt is worth getting out of this hellhole.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
But if you don’t have $9 Million, you don’t get to keep the house!
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 17, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
This is why I’ve been voting Nylander for a week.
by Scott in Shaw on Sep 18, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Do I already own 20 livable properties?
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Does it matter? If you take house A, your net worth neither increases nor decreases. If you take house B, your net worth decreases by more than 6 million dollars.
Let’s say you have $10 million in the bank. If you take house A, you still have $10 million in the bank. You could spend $1.5 Million to buy a nice house and still have 8.5 Million sitting there. But if you take house B, you spend $9 million to acquire an asset worth 1.5 million. So you’re left with 1 million in the bank (because you spent 9 of your 10) and you have a 1.5 million dollar house. Isn’t it better to have a 1.5 million dollar house and have 8.5 million in the bank rather than having a 1.5 million dollar house and only 1 million in the bank?
For those of us without $10 million, if you take house A, you’ve gained virtually nothing. If you take House B, you get to live in a 1.5 million dollar house exactly as long as it takes them to fill out foreclosure paperwork. Then they take everything you have (including the house) and you’re bankrupt. So would you rather be exactly where you are today, or bankrupt with nothing?
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 17, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
It matters if I plan on entering a four-round tournament where my 20 homes are compared against 20 homes from, say, a shady western Pennsylvania realtor. If I’ve only got 19 homes to show off because the northern Alberta place is inaccessible, and I’m down a home, I’m at an inherent disadvantage.
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But if you can stash that crappy house in the minors and bring up another house, or buy another house, then you’re at an advantage.
A man must have a code.
One of my larger, more imposing homes has a lawnmover tossed on the driveway. Will this be a net benefit going forward?
Winterion Game Studios
Visit us online at : http://winterion.com
One of my newer, flashier homes has a habit of being penalized frequently by judges. Admittedly, the architecture is creative, but a little reckless at times. The problem is, the home is also one of my highest scoring properties.
There was a really big, expensive property out west I was looking at before, but a nearby neighbor overpaid on the initial offer and got the house before I could.
Should I be upset?
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If it would have cost you what the nearby neighbor paid, count your blessings. Sure, he’s happy now, but in a couple of years when it starts to break down and its age shows, he’ll be sad…
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 17, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve got a nice new place.. it’s actually built by the same family I got an older home from years and years back. There’s sentimental value, but the entire place recently got a repaint, and I’m worried about the wall-to-wall red look.
Do you think the judges will take points off for such a gaudy display, or will they call the home creative and new-era?
Winterion Game Studios
Visit us online at : http://winterion.com
One of my homes keeps accessorizing. It’s added a pull-down projection screen, porch hot-tub… I’m worried that the home is starting to be too much about the amenities and not enough about the structural foundation. Sure, it’s flashy and scores well, but do you think the judges might take it out of the Most Valuable Home running because of its less traditional feel?
Winterion Game Studios
Visit us online at : http://winterion.com
I’m generally comfortable with my home lineup going into the preliminary rounds of the Mega Tour of Homes, but I can’t help but shake the feeling that my lineup of properties is missing something. Maybe it’s an inferiority complex, or maybe it’s the lack of a steady brick colonial in the second property group, I’m not sure. My four home groups aren’t quite set in stone yet, forgive the pun.
If I could pick between a classic colonial brick place, not too small, but still a little showy, a versatile home that would fit nicely in the second grouping, or something big, maybe cumbersome, but with a heavy foundation and a no-nonsense architecture that would work well in my vanguard of homes, to try and keep the overall scoring by my opposing homeowners lower? Could I afford both? And, if I could, what should I be willing to part with, property-wise?
Winterion Game Studios
Visit us online at : http://winterion.com
I’ve got three homes in the cul-de-sac category, but I’m only allowed to have two at the start of the Mega Tour of Homes. One is an older place, a bit shaky, but a former Most Valuable Home. It’s had a place in my cul-de-sac category for a little while now, and I’m generally comfortable with it.
But, I’ve got two great new places.. both are new-era, but each has its own charm.. one’s won a lot of minor league circuit acclaim, while the other seems dynamic and provides very showy architecture. Both seem like winners going forward. One’s got a European feel to it, the other reminds me of a lot of some of my finest properties in the originating theme.
Which two homes do I commit to?
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Visit us online at : http://winterion.com
Put another way, if you marry a nice looking, sweet girl and, two years in, she balloons into a 400 pound pain-in-the-ass but you can’t divorce her and can’t cheat on her because you believe in the sanctity of marriage, are you better off in that situation on the off chance that she might slim down and be a good shag again, or if she suddenly got hit by a bus?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I think you’re better off in the situation, because you believe in the sanctity of marriage and you’re not an asshole, that in two years, the marriage contract expires.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
So you’ve never been with a girl that ballooned into a giant pain in the ass? (Thank God I wasn’t married)
A man must have a code.
Nope.
Also, don’t get me wrong, I seriously get your guys’ argument, I’m saying I don’t think it outweighs the fact that he could produce and the other guys can’t, and his contract doesn’t perturb me as much because he’s gone in two years no matter what. I’ve said before, I think he’s a good player, but he’s in the wrong system. It’s a damn shame. I don’t see, though, who we could add with that money without sacrificing someone else. There’s no real free agents on the market who seem like improvements(I don’t think Lang is an improvement in anything but salary) and really, having cap just to have cap is bullshit if you’re not going to make a move. Yeah, I’l even admit he’s probably handcuffing GMGM to make a move, but in all likelihood, he’s only on the books for another year.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
Having cap space on hand in the absence of specific move is not useless though. I’d rather have the chance that spare cap space allows the Caps to make a deadline deal to fix a weakness going into the playoffs than have the chance that Nylander somehow becomes a productive player again.
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 17, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s situational at best.
having cap just to have cap is bullshit if you’re not going to make a move.
It’s fine you disagree with me. I’m used to that at this blog. :D
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
But who says they aren’t going to make a move if they have the space? If the Caps have the space they may or may not make a move, but even if they eventually don’t make a move it’s still better than having Nylander on the roster.
If the Caps get rid of Nylander and don’t use the Cap space, what is the negative that hurts the team? No Nylander on the ice? I don’t think that’s a big hit to the team.
If the Caps don’t get rid of Nylander and he doesn’t produce, then negatives are that they have no flexibility to adjust their roster and Nylander takes up a roster/contract space that could be used by some other promising prospect in the system.
The way I see it is that if the choice is between A) no Nylander and extra cap space vs. B) Nylander and no cap space, the choice isn’t even close. Choice A has a smaller potential risk and a higher potential reward.
by Killer_Carlson on Sep 17, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I wasn’t really trying to take it back to the Nyls argument; I was just commenting on how much it sucks to have a GF blow up into a bitchy whale.
As far as the Nyls argument, I’m not going to persuade you or anyone else that has voted for Nyls 15-20 times already. I’ll think of 3 more clever ways to make the anti-Nyls case and then that’ll be that (stay tuned!).
Lang is a gigantic improvement over Nyls. For starters, he played PK, which Nyls can’t. Second, he had more points in 20 fewer games. Lang is better at ES, PP, and PK. Plus, the contract thing is obviously huge for me so even if the production was equal, I’d rather have the guy at 1/2 salary.
Nyls may only be on the books for 2 years, but these are two prime years for us to compete for the Cup. Him being the obstacle that keeps us from getting the final piece is really important.
A man must have a code.
As far as the PK is concerned, I can think of four players on the current roster I’d rather have over both Lang AND Nyls. And the goals argument? Fair, but Lang got more consistent minutes with more consistent linemates.
Also, I’ve only voted for Nyls twice.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
Well voting for Nyls twice is the least defensible position, IMO.
Lang got more ice BECAUSE HE PRODUCED. Nyls had plenty of talent around him to produce, but couldn’t. I can think of 4 guys I’d rather have PK than Lang as well, but we both know more than 4 guys are going to have to be used (and that one of the top 4 is a guy that is pretty often going to be in the box). Lang increases our depth at PK, PP, ES. Nyls doesn’t.
A man must have a code.
Fair, but he’s not on the team now.
Anyway, tying up both of my points, because I have stuff to get to today, yeah. I get your points. I just can’t justify voting for someone who won’t play in the NHL over someone who will. I’m not saying that the salary is an issue, per se. But we can say that the roster limit in numbers is a problem too, if you’re going to argue cap space, and I’ll argue that made a difference at the deadline too.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
Fair, but he’s not on the team now.
Is Nylander? Don’t be too quick to answer that…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Don’t infer anything more than my implication that he’s not really a part of the team in that I don’t believe he’ll be used at all.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Ok. So by “not part of the team” you mean “won’t dress” not “won’t be on the Caps’ roster.”
A man must have a code.
Right – I mean it in the “leper” sense, not the “dead guy” sense.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Between opportunity cost, broken window fallacy, and now the endowment effect, this is a colossal economics fail.
Do you know why we had a roster pinch and no cap space at the deadline last year? It comes down to one guy…
None of the last several guys voted in are going to make the NHL so just starting to vote for Nyls now makes no sense.
A man must have a code.
by Rob Parker on Sep 17, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Do you know why we had a roster pinch and no cap space at the deadline last year? It comes down to one guy…
The GM.
from the house that Red Jesus built
OK. So, now that the anointment is pretty well fleshed out, isn’t the more compelling question this: How does Bruce move forward? Is it really as simple as the parade to the press box?
from the house that Red Jesus built
I think it starts the way you’d expect it to without the drama – the coach picks the 19 people to start that he feels gives him the best chance of winning the hockey game, pairs ’em up in the best manner he can, and sends ’em out there.
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I hope it’s that easy, but rationally, I’m thinking it won’t be.
from the house that Red Jesus built
I have no idea how it plays out. Normally teams don’t send such high priced players to the press box, but normally such high priced players aren’t so terribly ineffective as Nyls. I can’t see Ted putting pressure on GMGM/BB to play Nyls just because of his paycheck but it is hard to imagine Nyls sitting 82 games. Even using him as an absolute last resort injury replacement seems unlikely but I honestly don’t know how they play the guy if they are trying to really win a Cup.
A man must have a code.
I think it’s fair to saddle the blame on McPhee because of the NMC. But that doesn’t change that Nylander’s the one guy you can point at and say ‘the team is better off without him’.
Arguably ShaMo and Juice aren’t earning their salaries. The team might be better off with more than 3 extra million to play with and a defense corps of Green, Poti, Schultz, Pothier, Alzner, Carlson, and Erskine, with Sloan and Collins as emergency call-ups.
Theo is a serious question mark at his price.
I personally think Chris Clark and Brian Pothier will be worth their salaries this year, but they belong in the conversation too.
(And that’s not even counting the people who have very negative opinions of Poti and Green and Semin and Schultz, which in my opinion are unfounded)
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 17, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
You can try to make the arguments with Juice and ShaMo, and I definitely did make the case with Theo, but I don’t think any of them are as clear cut as Nyls.
A man must have a code.
Truth. Nylander is the only guy who, by all accounts, has essentially zero chance of living up to what he’s being paid, though whatever combination of his own fault and the fault of others you wish to attribute to the situation.
Other people meet this criteria in far lesser degrees. G.O.D, I personally would come down on the ‘yes’ for Shaone, and ‘on the fence’ for Milan. They’re both 26, but Juice gets paid 2/3rd the salary, could have a great point shot if he’d learn to aim, and perhaps telegraph it a little less. He also became a hit machine late last year, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I have to keep one of those guys, I’m conflicted. (I think many people would have a much easier time staying with ShaMo and parting with Juice. Such is subjective review!)
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I disagree about JT60- I think it is fairly clear cut that most every sentient that has been written about Nyls could be applied with equal force to JT60 and JT60 came in at No. 18.
JT’’s cap hit is almost the same, Brent Johnson was had for about 500K and how much better or worse with the Caps be if Johnny was splitting time with Varly or Neuvy and there was $4 Million in cap space to play with? The only decent center out there that makes any sense is Lang and he would cost what- $2M a year? That makes it at least arguable that JT60’s negative value is greater than Nyls’.
The Caps are extremely thin at center and are one Backstrom clavicle break away from just fighting to make playoffs. Correct me if I’m wrong but In BB’s first year, Nyls did well in his system and only faltered after he was injured. I have no special insight but I think Nyls was injured last year as well and just didn’t tell anybody. I am drawing this conclusion in part because at Camp he was moving so much more smoothly and with so much more quickness that I’m at a loss for an alternative explanation. He looks to be a different player.
I also think JP knows more than he is letting on and that the word has come down from on high that Nyls is not to play and that, regardless of his camp performance, he is destined for the press box. If I’m right, that’s a bunch of crap. If I’m not, Nyls should get his shot.
I don’t really want to get into the Theo argument because it’s over, and he’s on the list, but that was the position I took then. I think we could replace Theo relatively easily, for cheaper. I said Nyls was LVC and Theo was 2nd.
Why is Theo just a tad more valuable? First, he at least gives us average production for his position, which Nyls doesn’t. Second, he has one year left, instead of 2. Third, he doesn’t have a NMC so GMGM could bury him in Hershey or trade him to any willing team, were there one.
I don’t know if J.P. has inside knowledge, but I assume he has more contact with the organization than I do. If BB has already made up his mind that he wants to stick Nyls in the pressbox, I’m not sure why that is crap. It sucks for Nyls, but it’s BB’s prerogative.
A man must have a code.
Johnny gave the Caps average production; Nyls, when healthy, gave the Caps average to good production- and I contend that he was not healthy last year; and Nyls’ NMC expires this year so he can be just as gone as JT60.
It’s crap because the best players should play- and Nyls’ offensive skills were at least as good as Stecks’ defensive skills this Camp. If BB has prejudged- or is taking orders from GMGM- that is not only stupid in this instance- how can you move a guy who is not playing- but it’s stupid in general for all the obvious reasons.
33 points in 72 games is not average or good production from an offensive player. You’d expect him to put up about 60 points over 82 games, adjust down to 50 for age and he’s still a disappointment. You can speculate that he’s healthy, but that’s the kind of information that usually is out by this point. We know about all these other injuries, but not Nyls’? If he had an excuse for being so terrible I think everyone involved would jump on it.
Steckel’s defensive skill versus Nyls’ offensive skill? How is that relevant? It’s not apples to apples. Steckel is going to be expected to shut down opposing top lines, and be a mainstay on the PK. Nyls is at best the 3rd best offensive C. We need what Steckel brings far more than we need the 33 points, countless off-sides, and regular invisible shifts we’d get from Nyls. I don’t disagree that the best players should play, but BB knows what Nyls has to offer at this point. I don’t expect him to be a dramatically better player now than he was 4 months ago. Nyls wasn’t one of the best players then, and he isn’t now.
A man must have a code.
In 2007-2008, BB’s first season, Nyls was 11- 26-37 in 40 games.. I don’t know if there is an exact definition of “average to good” production but almost a point a game fits my description as well as yours.
As for injuries- I think the NHL is the worst for knowing about injuries. Are you convinced Green was healthy? That it was just the Flu? I’m not. And it would only be public knowledge of Nyls disclosed it. The reality is that I don’t know if he was injured- I only know I attended 20 home games last year, watched almost all of them on the Tube and went to all 3 scrimmages- and Nyls looks and moves like a completely different and dramatically better player.
Stecks vs Nyls is relevant because they are both the likely 3Cs. They are different types of players likely slotted for the same position- a scenario which often involves comparing apples to non-apples.
I really am not being a Nyls apologist. Just give the man a chance.
More than half the 07-08 games were under Hanlon. Nobody denied he produced for Hanlon. Hanlon also refused to let Backstrom play C, so Nyls didn’t have any competition to play with AO.
The NHL isn’t great about injuries, but no contact sport league is. Green has acknowledged being injured, so what’s your point? Everyone knows his shoulder was banged up and he was fat. I watched every game last year as well, though I haven’t seen Nyls in camp. But camp is camp speed, not NHL speed. The competition isn’t what Nyls is going to have to face during the season.
Stecks vs Nyls is not relevant because you aren’t comparing the same part of their game (and there is NO way BB takes Steckel out of the 3C if you want to be realistic). Which skill set do we need more at 3C? I’d say Steckel’s, you can say Nyls’. Maybe if we had another C that was a legitimate offensive threat I’d consider pushing Steckel to 4C, but Nyls ain’t that guy.
You are being the definition of a Nyls apologist, and whether he gets a chance isn’t up to me. It’s up to him and BB and I’m just giving you my best interpretation of the situation based on what I know about Nyls, the Caps, and BB.
A man must have a code.
More than half the games in 2007-2008 were not under Hanlon Hanlon was replaced on Nov 22, 2007 right before the Philly game meaning that slightly more than a quarter of the games were under Hanlon and slighly less than 75% were under BB.
There is no doubt that Camp speed is not NHL speed- but it is the only barometer available at this point and Nyls has performed well.
But even putting that aside, how can you trade/loan/whatever a guy that you don’t play and let other teams evaluate? And where else can play but 3C?
Again, I’d like to see the man get a chance and so should all the haters, if only to increase the chances that he gets moved.
More than half the games Nyls played. Nyls went out in Jan. and never returned.
Camp is not the only barometer. The last season was also a barometer. He’s in his mid-late 30s. He’s not getting any better.
You can’t trade him whether or not he plays because he can’t play up to a level that justifies 4.5 mill on the cap anymore.
And where else can play but 3C?
The KHL.
A man must have a code.
Last season was a barometer only if he is the same player he was last year. My point is that I don’t think that he is the same player- much like we all hope BMo is not the same player- and, at the very least, he should be given an opportunity to show that he is not.
And why not at least play him in the preseason? How that can that possibly do any harm? That is in fact what would be happening if the fix weren’t already in.
KHL? I probably should have seen that coming.
BMo has documented injury history; and his kind of injury is pretty well known to take 2 years to recover. If he holds to that he’ll be better. Again, until there is some evidence that Nyls was injured I’m not giving him that benefit of the doubt. I wouldn’t be totally opposed to him playing in the pre-season but there are a limited number of roster spots and I’m sure BB wants to make sure the horses get enough time to be ready for the regular season (2-3 games each) and he probably wants to take a look at several guys that he hasn’t already seen get a bunch of regular season NHL action. Could Nyls dress a game or two? No doubt. Would it tell BB anything he didn’t already know (or think he knew) about Nyls? Probably not. You definitely walked into that KHL crack.
A man must have a code.
I submit that there is no more pressing question for the Caps than whether Nyls’ play last year was a fluke or not. That has got to be worth a preseason game or 2. Angus getting 5 or so minutes, on the other hand, is not altogether helpful or revealing.
If there was a reason to think last season was a fluke I think the organization would have a completely different attitude. Look at how patient they’ve been with Clark and Fehr. They know better than us if a guy is injured or has a reason to be playing below level. When Nyls had that crappy plus/minus in 07-08 BB went to bat for him and said it was because his shoulder was keeping him from being able to battle, even though Nyls has never been much more than an average defender.
Angus playing 5 minutes does tell me something. I doubt they were going in there saying he was only going to play 5 minutes; they wanted to see what people can do. Angus showed them he couldn’t play more than 5 minutes, and that tells me he’s gonna have a hard time cracking Hershey.
A man must have a code.
I don’t know if J.P. has inside knowledge
He’s already said he doesn’t. It doesn’t take a genius to read the quotes from the powers that be, to watch Boudreau’s reactions during practice, and then to come to the conclusions J.P. has stated.
They signed Brendan Morrison. I’m not sure what else anyone needs.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 17, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, just because I say I don’t doesn’t mean I don’t. Duh duh DUH!
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Given the last several years, I am thoroughly not sold on BMo. I am optimistic- he looked good with 28- but not sold.
Thoroughly not sold on BMo, but going to the mat for Nyls. If you take the respective players in their primes BMo’s game fits BB’s system better than Nyls’ style does; and BMo is much closer to his prime than Nyls is.
A man must have a code.
BMo is 34 and Nyls is 37 (as of Oct 3) so BMo’s not that much closer to his prime.
And I hope you are right about BMo because the Caps have no margin for error at center.
Looks like we’ve found your goat. What would a Caps season be without one?
Can’t wait to see who the next one is.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
This isn’t about “the goat,” because I’m not sure anyone here is blaming the player for anything – he’s a talented and accomplished veteran who was signed to play in a different system than the one the Caps currently play and, through no fault of his own, is impossible to move. He’s no goat – he’s just not valuable and is, in fact, a hindrance to the team as presently constructed.
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Nyles won’t be the goat because he won’t play. I predict the goat will be a defenseman under the age of 25.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Sep 17, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
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