Top 5 D

Lidstrom
Niedermayer
Pronger
Green
Chara

over 2 years ago Rob Parker 31 comments 0 recs |

Comments

Just as a clarification, this list, more than the others, is informed by a one-season outlook. Long term the list changes quite a bit because of how old the top of that list is. If we shift to the long term outlook Shea Webber is probably the first to get added to the list.

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 1, 2009 2:42 PM EDT reply actions

I think a lot depends on how engaged and interested Niedermayer is in playing out the whole season.

Where do you rate Duncan Keith long-term? I seem to remember reading some very complimentary comments on his Olympic camp and gushes coming from Chicago bloggers about his regular season.

Dan Boyle is pretty friggin’ good too; I can’t imagine he’s too far from cracking the list.

by Knee high to a duck on Sep 1, 2009 4:32 PM EDT reply actions

Duncan Keith is right up there with Shea Webber. Not sure why Webber came to mind first but I really like Keith as well. The one guy I’m not huge on (but everyone else seems to be) is J-Bo. He’s a solid player for sure, I’m just not sold that he’s all he’s cracked up to be (which may not be his fault).

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 1, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions

We may get a better idea of where he is as a player on a blueline with Robyn Regehr; there’ll be a direct comparison with one of the better pure defenders in the league. Although right now I agree with you in that I never saw what the fuss was about vis-a-vis being one of the elite D.

Weber is a bigger weapon on the PP, but that may be because Keith didn’t get a lot of first unit time with Campbell out there and it may be that Weber is simply better offensively.

by Knee high to a duck on Sep 1, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions

I think it is that Weber has a bigger shot than Keith. Keith is an amazing skater and can move the puck but he’s not going to T off from the blueline and Campbell plays the role of the puck-carrying/freelancing D on the PP (the role I want Green playing for the Caps).

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 1, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Forgot to address Boyle. I like him a lot but he doesn’t really do it for me. He skates well, works hard (by teammate accounts), is good with the puck, is good in the room. I don’t think he’s particularly bad in his own end (despite being an offensive Dman) so I don’t know what it is. I just wouldn’t take him over any of the guys on the list (or Webber or Keith).

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 1, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Agreed. People forget how good Pronger and Niedermayer are even in mid 30s.

by red army line on Sep 1, 2009 4:39 PM EDT reply actions

The way Special Nieds skates he’ll be able to play as long as he wants. I get such a pleasure watching him glide across the ice.

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 1, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

No love for the Bowmaster? I kid.

I wont quibble with the top 3 but Zdeno is in the prime of his career and really is a better and more complete defenseman than Mike right now, His underrated shot and overall offense is enough to support his superior defensive game over that of 52.

from the house that Red Jesus built

by bigonetimer on Sep 1, 2009 5:21 PM EDT reply actions

I don’t see how Chara’s shot is underrated, everyone knows he won the hardest shot competition. I actually thinks his shot is overrated because he rarely gets that howitzer off in live action but people assume he’s always shooting 100 MPH. I really would have had Chara 3rd in Norris voting last year, but he won on a lifetime achievement standard. Green blows him away in offense and is top 10 in Mirtle’s Rod Langway Award list so I’m not sure how much he needs to make up in the way of defense. Green is faster and better with the puck. Chara is a very good player, he’s just not as mobile as any of the guys above him and I think that’s where he loses out in my mind.

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 1, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions

so, in the same thread back in February when Mirtle was spinning this Langway Award, you had this comment (in another convo re: Chara) about Mike Green: “I think he takes too much heat from the Cap fan base but his defensive play is not Norris worthy yet.”
(February 7, 2009)

What’s changed your mind?

from the house that Red Jesus built

by bigonetimer on Sep 1, 2009 9:22 PM EDT reply actions

I still don’t think he should have gotten the Norris. I think Lidstrom should have. I think Green needs work on his defensive focus, decisionmaking, and to an extent reading the game and playing angles, but I don’t think he’s below average in the league and I don’t think it’s a glaring deficiency. It is clearly the area of his game that needs work, but I think the problem is way overstated.

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 1, 2009 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions

It is, but it is so because it makes for a compelling narrative. I have little doubt in my mind it’s a situation where it’s a “good reason” to dislike him.

You’d think someone whose style of play, on ice, looks like a modern-day Coffey would garner a little more sympathy, but I see nothing but engraved bullets when I read press on 52 – and I’m just sure that glitzy new website of his is going to do wonders for those ammo stockpiles.

My voting had it Green-Chara-Lidstrom, only because I think what Green did really did justify the vote, that Chara admirably led his team, and that a vote for Lidstrom felt a lot like choosing a Honda Accord – boring, conventional, and you’re only buying it because everyone you know did, too, every year for the past decade or so.

Winterion Game Studios
Visit us online at : http://winterion.com

by winterion on Sep 2, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions

That reason you stated for not liking Lidstrom is precisely the reason he lost. He’s still the best in the game at the position. He makes it look easier than anyone else, but because he didn’t put up the same numbers he usually did people judged him based on previous years, not based on this year against the other competitors.

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 2, 2009 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions

If the voting was done after the postseason ended everyone would’ve realized how good Lidstrom still is. I don’t doubt that he would then have won the Norris in a landslide (with Green 3rd just ahead of Keith IMO)

by red army line on Sep 2, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions

If Green’s post-season was part of the voting I could see him not even being a finalist.

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 2, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions

Yeah well, that’s where 31 goals comes in.

by red army line on Sep 2, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Slightly off-topic: Who else is in the running for second-best defenseman of the modern era? I pretty much concede 1st to Bobby Orr, but is there a viable challenger for second other than Lidstrom? I can’t think of one off the top of my head but my hockey history knowledge is admittedly limited.

by Knee high to a duck on Sep 1, 2009 11:27 PM EDT reply actions

Paul Coffey, Nick Lidstrom, Scott Stevens, Al McInnis, and Scott Niedermeyer all come to mind.

Winterion Game Studios
Visit us online at : http://winterion.com

by winterion on Sep 2, 2009 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions

Also Chris Pronger, Ray Bourque, and Brian Leetch.

by red army line on Sep 2, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions

Of all those guys I think Lidstrom is pretty clearly the front-runner. If you are trying to find the second to Bobby Orr you need to look pre-80’s because post 80’s Lidstrom owns.

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 2, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions

I was going to say, the only name that even gave me pause was Ray Bourque, but that’s probably because he was a 99 rated player in NHL 93 or 94 for the Genesis. I was less than 10 years old at the time, so I’ve always identified him as ’teh super D!11" since then.

Lidstrom’s positioning, both offensively and defensively is so good at just about all times – he really seems to have that 6th sense, knowing where he needs to be before the play can take shape.

by Knee high to a duck on Sep 2, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions

Yep. Borque is amazing, no doubt. But Lidstrom just makes it look so easy because of how smart he is. He’s two steps ahead of everyone else so he usually doesn’t have to make outstanding plays, he just has to keep making the smart play. Of course, he’s able to make outstanding plays in a pinch but he doesn’t rely on that stuff.

A man must have a code.

by Rob Parker on Sep 2, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions

Also he plays in an era which is, arguably, tougher for defensemen to rack up points.

by red army line on Sep 2, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions

I really don’t think there’s much arguing against that. It’s harder for everyone to rack up points than it was in the heyday of Coffey, Potvin and Bourque.

by Knee high to a duck on Sep 2, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions

I just think points aren’t valid in some cases to determine who’s best. They only tell you who was most dominant. If Ovie played in the 50s, he’d now be considered the greatest player ever, I think.

by red army line on Sep 3, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Ovie’s a fantastic player, but I really don’t think he’s in greatest-ever territory, either now or in the past. For one thing, he’s only played four seasons, for another, you’re putting his career past Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky, and Mario Lemieux, just to name some off the top of my head? I don’t see it.

Hall of Famer and one of the best players of this generation? No question.

by Knee high to a duck on Sep 3, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions

if he racks up 2+ Cups, he’ll be in the convo with those names you mentioned (plus Howe, Richard, etc.)

may it be so

from the house that Red Jesus built

by bigonetimer on Sep 3, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Well, if he played in the 50s, he’d already have retired after (hopefully) some 20 or more seasons.

by red army line on Sep 4, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Orr is a given...

Orr was Paul Coffey on offense, and Rod Langway on defense all in one package, unfortunately on fragile knees….

As for the #2, it’s tough in the post expansion era. You have the names mentioned above (Coffey, Lidstron, Stevens, MacInnis, Niedermeyer, Pronger, Bourque, Leetch) and let’s not forget about Larry Robinson, Denis Potvin (sure we want to forget, but…), and Rod Langway. Personally, I’d go with Robinson, only because of 6 Cup rings, 2 Norris Trophies and a Conn Smythe trophy as playoff MVP in 1978.

Let's go Caps!

by MikeL-Pivonka on Sep 2, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions

I think Bourque is the only guy other than Orr and Lidstrom who was top 5 for both offense and defense every year for an extended period of time.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Sep 3, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions

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