Ranking the Capitals: #9
by J.P. on Aug 6, 2009 8:34 PM EDT
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PrintIn an effort to beat the summer doldrums, we're undertaking to rank - with your help - the Washington Capitals, from Ovechkin to, well, we'll see. The criteria is simple: who at this moment is the most valuable player in the organization who hasn't already been ranked? Put another way, if you could only keep one of the remaining players - because of what he brings on the ice or off it, his upside, what he could fetch in trade, and so on - who would it be? Consider age, potential, contract status, organizational depth, etc. - it's your call. And after you vote and defend your selection in the comments, help us out and suggest a name to add to the next poll. [Note: previous "Ranking the Capitals" posts can be found here."]
Welcome Mike Knuble to the list, and Brendan Morrison to the poll...
If this FanPost is written by someone other than one of the blog's editors, the opinions expressed in it do not necessarily reflect those of this blog or SB Nation.
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I voted for Carlson, actually. I’ve changed my criteria from ’who’s going to be the most valuable next year’ to ‘if another team’s GM called up McPhee and offered all his draft picks for the next ten years for one player, who’d be the last player on the list you’d offer him’?
Ditto.
Add Bradley to the poll for his shoot-out prowess and overall awesomeness.
by Scott in Shaw on Aug 7, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Meh, Poti I guess. Now all that’s left is the inevitable F&B/Dohboy rematch. This time, it’s personal.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
After we’re done with this, we’re going to rank you Rink Rats – “Who is the next most valuable commentor?”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Aug 6, 2009 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
*needs to remove post.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Aug 7, 2009 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Exactly – that’s some serious value there.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
A little Theo60 background for us noobs? Is this something I could still find on my own (i.e. the account name is still searchable?)
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
- Ferris Bueller
by war_capitals on Aug 7, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Theo60 put up a fanshot in defense of Theodore after the NYR benching. Many people commented on it and explained to him why they thought he was wrong (including people that run other SBN blogs, at least PPP and Mile High IIRC). The fanshot generated over 100 comments including many well-thought out arguments as to why Theodore could not be trusted to lead the Caps in the playoffs. When Theo60 was unable to get people to agree with his conclusion he deleted the post, along with all the effort many people put into developing a good discussion.
Thanks F&B, although I was around for that and should’ve remembered that happening. A perfect example of why everyone should read the Rules of the Rink that you guys have posted?
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
- Ferris Bueller
by war_capitals on Aug 7, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I think nobody likes it but i went for gut this time, and went for Poti.
Rockin' the Red in Section 412
Theodore
Following the criteria (or trying to at least) I went with Theodore. I figure with the size of his salary, that he might still be our starting goalie, and the fact that another team would probably pick him up as their starting goalie that that makes him the most valuable member. Its tough though, as a fan I have a hard time voting for him.
If I was voting only for what that specific player’s skills meant to the team I definitely would’ve gone Poti.
I think a lot of us could make a case for all of these guys. I mean, we love them all. I don’t write off Theo.
Rockin' the Red in Section 412
But I support both of your sentiments. Theo is pretty valuable for a team with otherwise entirely unproven goalies. We’ve seen a lot from Semyon and Neuvy (and Holtby) to give us a lot of optimism, but they are all still very, very young.
by Gould Old Days on Aug 6, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
okay…but are there rules to this game or aren’t there? because i thought JP had established we need to consider age, salary, length of contract, etc. in which case, how does anyone value theodore (who the caps will almost certainly let walk after this season) over carlson or schultz? wouldn’t any one here trade theo right now for another carlson-type prospect or 23-year-old, top-4 defenseman? theo’s 2009-2010 season is going to be worth that much to the caps? not to mention the ways GMGM could use theo’s recouped salary.
by Natty Bumppo on Aug 6, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
“[G.O.D.], this is not ’Nam. This is [Ranking the Capitals]. There are rules.”
by Rob Parker on Aug 6, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
mark it schultz or you’re entering a world of pain. a world of pain.
by Natty Bumppo on Aug 7, 2009 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions
IMO Theo brings a lot to the table per JP’s rules…
1) He’s proven – He led the team to one of the best regular seasons in the history of the franchise. Could he have played better…no question…But the fact remains that he did enough to win, especially after the beginning of the New Year.
2) Trade value – He’s in a contract year and if he plays well during the regular season he could fetch something somewhat substantial in return at the deadline.
3) There are no other proven keepers in the system – Yes…Varly had a great playoff run, but let’s be real, his game against the NYR and his game against the Guins were two entirely different games. Was he tired, or was his magic against the Rags simply him showing what he can do against a bottom tier offense?
4) Durability – Can Varly make it through the vigors of the regular season? He definitely suffered from injury and fatigue last year. Both during the regular season and the playoffs.
I haven’t voted for a keeper yet…I probably would have if it was a keeper tandem of Varly and Theo. Most of us weren’t happy with Varly’s play last year…especially after game 1. But the fact remains he played well enough for the team to have the second best record in the Eastern Conference. Who knows how Varly will hold up in this system for an entire season. Let’s be realistic, BB’s system is not the NJ Trap. Whoever the keeper is on the Caps is going to have to put up with a lot of shots and a lot of odd man breaks. None of us know how Varly is going to hold up over the long term in this system…
That’s why Theo was, and continues to be, important. Along those same lines…looking down the road past next season…I’m not opposed to seeing some sort of Varly/Neurvith tandem.
/flame on
Proven isn’t good when the only thing you’ve proven lately (4 years) is that you can’t be trusted. He won behind an extremely talented team with the Hart winner and Norris runner up. He posted average numbers. The Caps would have been fine with any goalie that could give them average NHL goaltending.
His trade value isn’t going to be that high. The only team that is going to trade for him is a rebuilding team that just needs an average NHL goalie so they don’t get embarrassed or a team that wants him to be backup. Neither type of team will give up much for him. The best thing the Caps are going to get for him is his cap room. Until they have a purpose for that cap room (i.e. they have a player in mind), there is no reason to move him; on that I agree. He can play backup for our rookies all year and make sure we know we are going to get average goaltending in the regular season. That’s worth something. But not as much as other guys on the list.
No, the rookies aren’t proven. But it’s pretty hard to be young and proven. You need a chance. What both have proven is that they have a lot of talent. Varly tired out, but Neuvirth flat out locked it down. Easier competition, yes, but the AHL is still the second best league in the world and it was his first year out of juniors. The guy has handled a ton of mental stuff in the last 2 yrs (trades, injuries, nowhere to play, Europe, ECHL, AHL, NHL, AHL) and at the end of the day he played well everywhere he got a chance and he walked away with the MVP of the Calder Cup playoffs. I’m impressed. I want to see more.
If we lose Theo, I’m not afraid to play the rookies until they both force us not to. If GMGM needs a back up because one can’t hack it, then he can get one. Otherwise let them both get NHL experience and then pick up a backup for the playoffs at the trade deadline. Let them decide which one gets to go into the playoffs with the Caps and send the other back to Hershey. I’m OK with that scenario.
As you note, the Caps give up some tough chances for a goalie. When I was discussing Nabokov with J.P. I said that the most important things in a goalie were: not letting in soft goals, and making the save when the team needs it. I don’t trust Theo to make the save when the team needs it. Being an awesome goalie is mental. There are countless examples of ridiculously talented head cases. I think both rookies have shown a better head than Theo has since the lockout.
Varlamov went into a ridiculously stressful situation and played great (several times). No doubt his game dropped off, but I don’t hold it against him too much considering the rest of the team around him. Neuvirth went through all the distractions and dominated when it mattered. Maybe he just got hot at the right time, but he also got white hot when he took Plymouth to the Memorial Cup. His playoff numbers at every level are very impressive. He may not have the sheer athleticism of Varlamov, but I’m sold on his dome.
If you don’t trust Theo (which I don’t), then you have to be resigned to playing one of the rookies in the playoffs again (which I am). If you don’t trust either rookie then you can convince yourself that Theo’s experience is gonna bring back 2002 this year, but I don’t think that’s likely; or you want GMGM out looking for a different No. 1, which isn’t happening. You gotta play the kids eventually and they haven’t failed yet. How long you gonna sit on those eggs? That makes Theo not the most valuable guy on that list.
/D’ohboy’d
Manny Fernandez is floating out there, without a job. Other quality goalies as well. Which makes Theo less valuable, because he could be easily replaced.
by Gould Old Days on Aug 7, 2009 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m tired, buzzed and not looking forward to work in 6.5 hours. What does that mean? Well this is going to be short, sweet and probably incoherent.
He won behind an extremely talented team with the Hart winner and Norris runner up. He posted average numbers.
No doubt he posted average numbers, but that’s all it will take to win the majority of the games with this team. If you’re expecting Varly or Neurvith to put up huge numbers in this system I think you’re going to end up being disappointed.
Don’t get me wrong, I was incredibly impressed with Varly’s performance in the playoffs…but he also benefited from some extremely lucky bounces. Truth be told, I have taken a ton of heat from friends because I honestly believe that Neurvith is the franchise goalie of the future for the Caps not Varly.
The Caps would have been fine with any goalie that could give them average NHL goaltending.
Exactly my point. None of us really know what the team has in either Varly or Neurvith. Do they have what it takes to be an average NHL goaltender? We’ve seen what both of them can do…albeit in extremely small sample sizes. Remember Jim Carrey? Theo’s importance isn’t in the fact that he’s going to win the Vezina next year…it’s that we know what we’re getting…someone that will do just enough to win the gross majority of the games.
His trade value isn’t going to be that high. The only team that is going to trade for him is a rebuilding team that just needs an average NHL goalie
What do you define as not that high? If he comes out of camp looking strong and gets into a good number of games between now and the deadline, he’ll bring back something significant. He’s in a contract year, and there will be some teams fighting for the playoffs that are looking to give their starter a kick in the shorts. Will he bring back an elite talent? Nope. But, assuming Varly plays at the same level that he showed in the playoffs, Theo will bring back a gritty player with a low draft pick.
He can play backup for our rookies all year and make sure we know we are going to get average goaltending in the regular season.
I’ll say it again. All this team needs is average goal tending. This team isn’t built behind the the NJ trap. I’m all for him playing back up next year…but he is an insurance policy. Varly didn’t make it through a full year of the AHL last year, and there is absolutely no debating the point that he was fatigued during the Pittsburgh series. Or, atleast I hope, there is no debate..because if there is reason for debate we’re in worse shape than I thought. Neurvith, while he had an amazing run in Chocolatetown has proven nothing in the Show as of yet (I stand by my comment that he is the goalie of the future). His numbers, in an admitted small sample size, were mediocre at best. Theo’s worth is that we know the Caps can win with him in the net.
The reason I noted that I would have voted earlier for a tandem of Varly/Theo is because I don’t see Varly getting more than 47-50 starts this year…that leaves 32-35 starts for Theo. Granted, I hope I’m wrong, but with the way he got hurt last year, I just don’t see it happening anyother way as the team (BB/GMGM) will already be looking ahead to the playoffs.
I don’t trust Theo to make the save when the team needs it.
I don’t trust Theo to make the save either, but I’ll say it again, Theo won the majority of the games he played in. This team does not need an awesome goalie to be successful in the regular season. I’ll grant the point that Varly proved they need one in the post season, but how much is his play going to drop off playing 60-70 games this year? He only played 33 games in North America last year (27 in Hershey and 6 in DC)…and the year before that he only played….you guessed it…33 games in Russia. Personally I am worried about his stamina due to his performance last year in Hershey and during the playoffs in DC.
I think both rookies have shown a better head than Theo has since the lockout.
No argument here. But I stand by all of the comments above.
No doubt his game dropped off, but I don’t hold it against him too much considering the rest of the team around him.
I agree with you in principal but you and I both know that’s a bit of a cop out. Varly was fatigued and playing against a mucn much much more talented offensive team in the Penguins. Yes, the teams defensive play dipped also…for whatever reason (fatigue, injury, illness, incompetence), but as you stated above one of the keeper’s most important job’s is <blockquote>making the save when the team needs it.
If you don’t trust Theo (which I don’t), then you have to be resigned to playing one of the rookies in the playoffs again (which I am).
I agree here in principal. But I’m also comfortable with Theo sharing the load (read ~half of the games) in getting the Caps into the playoffs….atleast until the deadline. Why? If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a million times. The team wins with him in net. Let him start 35-50% of the games…and see what’s out there at the deadline. At that point there are options.
You gotta play the kids eventually and they haven’t failed yet. How long you gonna sit on those eggs? That makes Theo not the most valuable guy on that list.
Again, I agree 100% that you have to play the kids…not eventually but now. I know I sound/have sounded negative on Varly in this post and that’s not the point. The point is that Theo’s value to this team is not that of an every day starter…but is that of someone who gracefully took the back seat during the playoffs and of someone that has proven he can win the majority of the games in net for this team. Say what you will about his stats…and I’ll grant you they are bottom of the league…but a keeper on this team is never…never…going to have great stats as long as BB is here. His winning percentage was comparable to BJ’s (almost to the tenth of a point)…and while Varly’s and Neurvith’s sample size are too small., if you combine their games with BJ’s it’s almost identical to Theo’s.
In closing to what was supposed to be a short, drunken response, I don’t think Theo should be the Caps starter next year. But I do think that his value to the team is almost equal to that of Varly’s as Varly has never played more than 33 games in a season. Again, that’s why I haven’t voted for a keeper yet because I truly believe that their value to this team is almost equal right now. Yes, Varly has more potential, has a cheaper contract and would bring more in return for a trade….but he’s also, IMO, not ready to assume the duties as a full time starter. Theo’s value is it allows the team to truly see what they have in Varly and Neurvith while knowing they have someone on the pine that they know can play well enough to win.
/flame on.
by Yoshietree on Aug 7, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
this is going to be short
Whoa…
by Gould Old Days on Aug 7, 2009 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Whoa…
Alcohol is a powerful drug. Not so hung over today, but my face sure is red now that I’ve finished that ummmm..novel.
Hey, that was a far, far better decision than driving anywhere…
by Gould Old Days on Aug 7, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Touche….touche. The sad thing is that one would think that in a post that long I would have atleast managed to get my point across…but that didn’t happen.
On that note, I’m ready to move on to #10…start fresh or something.
an exercise in “yoshietree taken unfairly out of context” (apologies in advance):
No doubt he posted average numbers, but that’s all it will take to win the majority of the games with this team.
Will he bring back an elite talent? Nope.
Theo will bring back a gritty player with a low draft pick.
I’m also comfortable with Theo sharing the load (read ~half of the games) in getting the Caps into the playoffs….at least until the deadline.
This team does not need an awesome goalie to be successful in the regular season.
The point is that Theo’s value to this team is not that of an every day starter…but is that of someone who gracefully took the back seat during the playoffs.
I don’t think Theo should be the Caps starter next year.
Yes, Varly has more potential, has a cheaper contract and would bring more in return for a trade….
i know you’re angling at a completely different point, but if theo is average and it takes nothing more than an average goalie to win games for the caps (your premise as i understand it), then i don’t see how theo is more valuable than any of the regulars in our poll. if he won’t return an elite prospect, why would the caps choose him over an elite prospect like varlamov, an elite prospect like neuvirth, an elite prospect like carlson, or proven commodities like poti, steckel, schultz? if a thoroughly average theo is capable of winning games, then the caps should be the team sending a part-time, mid-to-low-range prospect at the deadline for goalie help (if it’s needed), since there will be plenty of thoroughly average goalies available. there’s no reason to give up a key cog for an insurance policy, especially when it will take much less than a key cog to replace the insurance policy on the open market….which you admit, only in reverse. likewise, only 8 players in, i’m not of the mind to shortchange the foundation—giving up on young and established players—in order to secure a goalie that might play half of one season before being sent packing.
This. I’ll add that Varlamov played 44 games in his last RSL season, and 16 in the playoffs that year (including, IIRC, at least one stretch of 4 games in 5 nights and several back to backs).
Yoshie, you just keep going back to the “they aren’t proven” argument, in one iteration or another. Well, they can’t have been proven because they’ve seen limited NHL action. Are you the guy that sees a 4.0 from George Washington University and says “well it isn’t Harvard?” There’s something to be said for doing the best you can with the opportunities you are presented. I actually don’t disagree with you at all that Neuvirth could be the goalie of the future. I just disagree that we need to wait another year before we start trying to determine the Varlamov/Neuvirth question. That rookie tandem can keep us in the playoffs/contention through the trade deadline, at which point we can pick up an average NHL backup for much less than Theo makes.
Bottom line: the backup goalie cannot possibly be more important than Poti or Schultz (top 4 D) or Carlson or Neuvirth (highly promising prospects that give us great depth at key positions).
Easy on the GW degrees there, buddy :)
by Scott in Shaw on Aug 7, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hey, it wasn’t a knock on GW. GW is obviously a great school. There are far more great schools than there are Ivy league schools. The shot was at the snobs that think it doesn’t mean something if you went to an Ivy. The example was based on an actual conversation relayed to me by my father who is on the admissions board of one of the better Med. Schools in the country. One of the other Docs on the board questioned whether a 4.0 was good enough because it wasn’t from an “elite” school.
The shot was at the snobs that think a 4.0 doesn’t mean something if you didn’t go to an Ivy.
That’s how it should read. I apologize if I offended any GW grads, that wasn’t the point.
We’re just joking. Scott, Pepper and I are all GW law alums.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Well I figured Scott was. I randomly picked GW because I figured everyone knew it was a good school. I didn’t think I offended anyone but just wanted to clear up any interweb confusion.
I knew what you meant, but couldn’t let it pass without comment, hence the little smiley thing at the end that the kids today use.
by Scott in Shaw on Aug 9, 2009 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, Varly has more potential, has a cheaper contract and would bring more in return for a trade….but he’s also, IMO, not ready to assume the duties as a full time starter. Theo’s value is it allows the team to truly see what they have in Varly and Neurvith while knowing they have someone on the pine that they know can play well enough to win.
This, particularly when it comes to viewing goaltending out of this exercise.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Aug 7, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the Caps could pretty easily find another goalie that can give them a .900 – .910 sv% and let in goals at awful times. There is no reason we have to rely on Theo to be the mediocre goalie to give us stability all season.
by Rob Parker on Aug 7, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And adding another contract (Johnson) was? Not saying that you led that charge, I don’t know if you were, but an “awful” Theo won 30+ games en route to a decent regular season for the club. Postseason aside, any apprehension toward Varlamov immediately taking over this year and starting 50 games is the exact reason why Theo only has a 2 year deal.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Aug 7, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t say Theo was awful, I said he let in goals at awful times. I don’t think that’s an unfair statement. He gave us average goaltending which was enough to let the skaters dominate the SE. I think the 2 year deal was because GMGM wasn’t sure the rookies would be ready in 1 year and wanted to make sure we had an NHL goalie until they were ready. He took the cautious approach, which was warranted. I’m not saying we need to get rid of Theo, just that we don’t need to keep him. The apprehension regarding Varlamov taking over as a starter was apprehension in the 2008 off-season. I don’t think GMGM has that same apprehension now. I’m not sure what you meant by the BJ comment to start your post.
Sorry, I was agreeing to Yosh’s position as it translated to non-rankings discussion. Sounds like we’re closer in opinion than we think.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
I want a season of not cringing on each opponent’s first shot. Is that so much to ask?
from the house that Red Jesus built
Good Lord
You’re giving me flashbacks to those first 10 games or so of last season. I remember watching the opener in Atlanta and thinking, “Oh shit.”
Theo's real value
Comes from:
A) The fact that having him means we can keep Varly/Neuvy fresh for the playoffs
B) We can put one of Varly/Neuvy down in Hershey where they can get the starting experience they need
C) He’ll be in a contract year, so he might actually play pretty well
I don’t buy the whole, “the Caps don’t need great goaltending” argument. Sure, we can win without great goaltending, but we WON’T win a cup without great goaltending. And that’s all I really care about. Screw the SE division banners, I want sterling silver paraded down Pennsylvania Ave in a big-ass ’63 Lincoln Continental convertible.
Let’s not forget that, before he got injured, Johnson significantly outplayed Theo to the point where he was our de-facto #1. If given the option right now, I’d trade Theo straight up for Johnny in a heartbeat. Sigh.
I agree with most of that. I’d just ask you what you think Neuvirth has left to prove in the AHL? Obviously I’d rather have him playing but I think as far as their game both rookies can handle the NHL right now.
As far as great goaltending, it would be nice but it’s not necessary. Many teams have won the Cup without great goaltending, the last two champs included. Maybe your definition of great is different than mine, but I’d put Osgood and MAF’s performances above good but below great.
I’d just ask you what you think Neuvirth has left to prove in the AHL?
He was born on March 23, 1988, and he still looks like this:
I don’t think a year in the A is going to do him any harm…
by Gould Old Days on Aug 7, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing left to prove
But if the choice is down between him only getting 20-25 games in the NHL and getting 55-60 in the AHL, I’d prefer the latter to the former. It’s about experience for him, rather than skills development.
Agreed. I wouldn’t mind a 30/30 with him and Varlamov up to the trade deadline then send one guy back to Hershey and pick up a veteran back up for the playoffs though.
Yeah, that’s the “perfect world” scenario, but I think that scenario will require us off-loading either Nyls’ or Theo’s (or both’s) contract, because I think we’ll likely want to make a couple of moves at the deadline: 1) experience backup goalie, 2) gritty veteran with cup experience who can keep the young ’uns calm.
First, I think having both rookies in DC presupposes Theo is moved or stashed in Hershey, in which case his cap hit isn’t hurting us. Second, after 3 game 7’s in two years (two of which they even showed up for!) how much do you think the “young ’uns” need keeping calm? They’ve all been through some serious tests, and the North American boys have gone on at least one, most of them two, long playoff runs in Hershey. They’ve played big games. I’m not sure I’m scared of their nerves anymore.
IMO they only showed up for the PHI one. NYR was horrible and Varly saved them. PIT was the same, except Varly couldn’t do it all again
by red army line on Aug 8, 2009 7:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I can see a lot of people taking that comment out of context and getting the wrong idea. Not that I particularly care which idea people have of me. . .
I’d actually like to see someone take that the wrong way. If the combinations of the words “bisexual” “socialist” “verb” (with “verb” used as a noun) don’t tip people off to the fact that it’s an inside joke then their opinion is probably not responding to. I think most of the people around here will pick up the reference (though I am legitimately shocked that we weren’t the only two people to follow that battle royale the other day).
Totally
When I saw people chiming in the next day I couldn’t believe it. It was a pleasant surprise, but a surprise nevertheless. I guess it’s another example in my ongoing education about the power of the intertubes.
Yeah. I kinda chuckled to myself thinking about people getting up in the morning and getting excited because there were 25 new comments on that poll… then checking and being like “WTF, it’s all these two clowns? On the same topic?? Talking past each other????” Never say the Rink Rats aren’t resilient.
Well, to be honest, I read the first two-thirds or so of the exchange, but then I started hoping that each response would start getting shorter and shorter which they didn’t :)
Also, the energy required to read vertically since everything pegged to the right was more than I could take, so I skipped to the end and threw out the Keynes/Friedman comment.
Epic late night battle though.
wouldn’t any one here trade theo right now for another carlson-type prospect or 23-year-old, top-4 defenseman?
I think you said it right there… or at least why I voted for Theodore. I feel like at this point we could get a carlson-type prospect or a more veteran D for theodore. And going by the criteria that means to me that Theodore is as valuable as either of those. Add in the amount of his contract and the fact that he’s a goalie and he got my vote this round.
by DarkHorseCards on Aug 7, 2009 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions
There is no team in the league that would give us a John Carlson-type prospect for Theo straight up. There are probably no teams that would give us a veteran D that would actually be an upgrade on the D we already have. If you want to trade a G for some help, you’re looking at one of the rookies.
I agree.
Carlson’s a mid-late first round draft pick who’s exceeding expectations – that’s a very valuable asset. Every team in the NHL either has a goalie who is either (1) better than Theodore or (2) about the same as Theodore, but cheaper. There’s not a lot of demand or value there.
Honestly at this point I don’t know if Theodore gets claimed if he’s put on waivers.
Probably not. He’s slightly better then Legacy and Fernandez (only because of Manny’s knees), but presuably no one is looking at goaltenders right now.
BUT if someone goes down to injury before the season starts, we might have a suitor. I don’t know who else Chicago has in thier system besides Alec Ricahrds GO MUSTANGS, but if Huet went down they might over pay for a vet.
He’d get claimed on re-entry.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Agreed – but if someone was looking at a 4.5 million cap hit & salary for him I don’t know who picks that up.
I feel like at this point we could get a carlson-type prospect or a more veteran D for theodore.
no chance.
by Natty Bumppo on Aug 7, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I am pretty sure the Caps wouldn’t be able to trade Theodore for a bag of pucks right now. He has a big salary and nobody needs a goalie – that’s why all of the remaining FAs are signing in the KHL. If the Caps could have gotten any significant value for Theo, they would have and signed Johnson.
How about phrasing it this way:
If the Caps had BJ under contract for this year, and Theo was the UFA, would anyone here say we need to move BJ in order to make room for Theo? Would anyone be significantly more uncomfortable with BJ as the backup than Theo?
I’d be a little more uncomfortable just because Theo is historically more durable, but not significantly.
And just to be clear, Theo can still play a useful role for the Caps – he’ll probably get 40+ starts and put up a good number of wins. I’m happy with him as the veteran workhorse to keep Varly from burning out, but his salary hurts real bad when the Caps could likely have gotten equivalent value from BJ, a guy who wanted to stay and was a good guy in the room and with fans, for over $3m less.
Exactly. I specifically used the word “significantly” because I can understand a little bit more confidence in Theo, but not much. I don’t consider 40-50 starts a “workhorse” and I don’t think that’s what we need from him anyway. I’d like to see over half our starts go to a one of the rookies. Ideally Theo would get 30-35 starts, IMO.
I always thought a bird in the hand was worth two in the bush. But around these parts, one bird in the AHL is apparently worth more than Big Bird who’s played on our blueline for 150 games and still has lots of room to get better.
Wake me up when we’ve finished voting Della Rovere and Orlov ahead of Schultz.
by Tromni on Aug 7, 2009 9:37 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I hear your frustration but the guys that have been voted on from the AHL aren’t just any AHL players, they are the stud prospects in our organization. SDR and Orlov aren’t in the AHL yet so they still don’t fit your criteria, though I know it was tongue in cheek.
I completely understand why folks are so excited by the potential of guys like Carlson and Alzner. I’m excited about them too, believe me.
And I don’t feel like i’m being curmudgeonly and insisting that “veterans” like ShaMo and Erskine should be blocking them because of some kind of “get off my lawn you darn kids” mentality.
But if we got Carlson or Alzner up here for 150 games, we might start to doubt our projections about them too, because we’d be able to see every bad outlet pass, passive shift, and giveaway they make. When they make those mistakes in Hershey or London instead of on our TV set, we can ignore them and focus on all the good things we hear about their future.
Carlson and Alzner make mistakes, I don’t think anyone doubts that. They are young D and that is to be expected. But both of them are seriously ahead of the curve for young D, in a way that no other Caps D prospect was at 19-21 years old. I’m not discounting the veterans you named, but those guys are just not in the same skill class as Alzner/Carlson. I’m not pushing veterans down the pecking order for guys that won’t contribute for 4-5 years. I’m pushing them down for guys that will be contributors within the next 2 seasons.
It's the criteria
As long as the criteria for this is based on “trade value,” potential franchise d-men (which at this point Karlznerson is) will be more valuable to a steady #2/#3 defenseman who has long since maxed out his potential.
The hypothetical question we’re trying to answer is: a GM calls you tomorrow and offers you Poti for Karlznerson, do you take that deal? I think most of us would answer: “Hell no.”
However, if I were a coach and someone asked me this year which player is more difficult to replace in the lineup, I’d take Poti.
by D'ohboy on Aug 7, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But hypotheticall, if you were GMGM, and you had a lot of young talent, and you really, really needed a veteran D…
I see where this is headed...
Ok, so what if, God Forbid, Green goes down late in the season and we can snag . . . Sergei Zubov? Or Anaheim makes Niedermayer available as a rental?
Poti is more valuable to the teams success this seasonb, Carlson is more valuable in the long term. Hard to pick one or the other but I went with Poti just because I think the Caps have a legit shot at the cup, and those chances would be greatly hindered if we lost Poti
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
That’s my line of thinking as well. Carlson and Schultz are more valuable long term, but sometimes you have to turn you focus to the present and do what it takes to win THIS YEAR, even if it means giving up an asset that may help you in the long term. it’s the very nature of deadline deals, really. I’m just applying that philosophy to this ranking of caps players…hate to value Poti above those other defensemen, but he’s a vital part of a 2010 cup run and they are not IMO.
Erskine would kick Bradley’s ass 10 out of 10 times. He’s just less willing due to concussion history.
I love me some Brads, but Boyd > Bradley in my opinion…
by Gould Old Days on Aug 7, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, but as we waste away these boring summer days, we all fondly remember Game 5 against eh Rangers going “Bradley?! Brads has the puck…..oh my god, he scores!!!!” Repeat. It was teh awesome. (almost as awesome, same game: “Brads is out on the PP? Really? BRADLEY????”)
Besides, Brads will beat you up if you don’t recycle.
Just don’t let Jordin Tootoo near him.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Aug 7, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Mayhaps, but erskine doesn’t drop em…bradley does. I know bradley always loses when he fights, but he’s at least willing.
Does winning fights deter someone from taking off AO’s head? There is one thing, and one thing only, that deters people from taking off AO’s head (not counting the actual difficulty of catching, and lining up AO): AO is a freaking bull. Hitter beware, he’s coming back with plenty of his own force. The last game v. PHI last season convinced me that Brash had no deterrent effect. I had suspected as much but you can’t prove a negative, once he was out of the lineup against the dirtiest team in the division and nothing went down I was convinced.
by Rob Parker on Aug 7, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
so alex semin is just shit out of luck? i can see the argument that enforcers are dying off (and i’m all for going enforcer-less during the playoffs), but brash wasn’t a deterrent because brash wasn’t doing his job, not because he wasn’t winning fights.
I’m definitely one of those guys that thinks fighting has absolutely no impact on stuff like this, because a fight is really not a threat. If you choose to fight, you’re not hurting the other team. Best-case scenario, you have offsetting majors there, between guys who fight routinely and are probably looking to fight to justify their paychecks. The kind of player that might run Ovie and try to hurt him probably isn’t going to be an enforcer, who’s unlikely to be on the ice at the same time.
To the extent enforcers have a deterrent effect, I think it’s for the reminder that they can hurt your guys too. But that’s true of pretty much any player willing to get his hands dirty, and since enforcers tend to be slow footed with limited ice time they have fewer opportunities to hurt guys than more skilled players. If someone ran a Cap in a game tomorrow, other guys would jump to his defense. Guys will have Semin’s back, but he has to keep his head up whether the Caps employ an enforcer or not.
If our PP is at 25% again this year
That’s our deterrent right there. Not a lot of people take stupid runs at players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Why? Because if you’re some marginal goon and you get called for your cheap shot, there’s a better than 1/4 chance that the Wings will put the puck in the net and you’ll find yourself riding the pine or on a bus back to Johnstown faster than you can blink. Moreover, with two refs, it’s much less easy to get away with stuff than it used to be.
If the Caps can maintain our PP excellence (and we should with the additions of Knuble and BMo), there’s no reason to worry excessively about cheap shots.
seriously. AO will eff you up if you try and take his head off. He’ll also score 3 goals just to embarrass the goalie for making such a poor life choice in playing for the team that employs the idiot who decided going after AO sounded like a good idea. You couldn’t pay me enough to try and rough him up on the ice (even if he didn’t have quite a bit of height and weight on me, and I haven’t been on skates since I had my knee reconstructed)
by RedBirdie on Aug 7, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
word. that Montreal game, where he got his nose busted and popped in 4 goals—including the game winner in OT, I still think was his finest performance as a Cap.
Maybe even the finest performance ever by any Cap in the regular season.
from the house that Red Jesus built
Maybe even the finest performance ever by any Cap in the regular season.
I’m just glad we have something to compete with Jagr’s seven point game….
I am catagorically opposed to recognizing Jagr as owning the record for best anything on the Caps ever. The only possibly exception is “Best lack of professionalism and commitment to quitting.” He probably wins that, though he may have withdrawn because too many defensemen were involved and he heard the podium was in his own zone.
My curiosity is finally getting the best of me
But first, my thanks for an absolutely riveting conversation, starting with “Ranking the Caps #2”. I am still a hockey neophyte but feel at least slightly more educated about the game and might even know what to start looking for when the days start getting shorter and it becomes time to actually strap on some skates.
My question is this…what’s with Chris Clark? He wears the captain’s “C” but he is never discussed here at the Rink. Every other player is hotly debated, torn apart, stitched back together, mocked, defended, and now ranked. Chris’ name is hardly even mentioned. And he’s not even been mentioned in these Ranking posts. Does he even have a role on the team?
Please educate me further…
PS Maybe this should be a FanPost? I don’t want to derail the Ranking
IS PAЯTY NOW
it's a damn shame about Clark
CC, if he ever gets his groin back to 100%, will be a very valuable contributor. Until then, he’s 3rd line, max. I saw some promise from him in the playoffs, just missing on two or three efforts.
from the house that Red Jesus built
Clark’s game, when he is healthy enough to be on the ice, has not been very good the last two years. Nobody knows how much the injuries have affected him and lots of people still feel affection for him for captaining the team through the rebuild, giving the upper plate of his mouth, his ear, many stitches and teeth for the team. I think people don’t really want to rip him because we don’t know how much of his decline is related to injuries incurred for the team, but his play has clearly not been up to snuff so nobody is too excited about his return to the lineup.
giving the upper plate of his mouth, his ear, many stitches and teeth for the team
Yikes. Salute.
his play has clearly not been up to snuff so nobody is too excited about his return to the lineup
Yah, I could tell. He’s never even mentioned.
IS PAЯTY NOW
It’s as if there’s an understood “Incomplete” grade to his last two years with the Capitals due to the abundance of injuries.
Give ‘em hell in ’09-’10, Cap’n!!!
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
- Ferris Bueller
by war_capitals on Aug 7, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
When healthy, Clark is like the player in my avatar. He scores goals that need to be scored and fights fights that need to be fought. He’s the kind of guy who really helps you win a cup because he does the dirty work. If he ever returns to that form, he’d be one hell of an asset.
He’s not getting any mentions here because we’ve all moved on. After two years of ineffective play, nobody really expects him to come back and be that same player again. Kind of like why Brian Pothier is going to come in fairly low on this list. But both of them have the potential to be seriously great contributors. And they’re both such great guys, we all would love to see it.
by Gould Old Days on Aug 7, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Can you imagine?
Just how good this team could be if Clark came back and was even 75-85% of his 2005-2007 capacity? Heck, if we got Calgary Flames-era Clarkie I’d be stoked: 10 goals, 15 assists with gritty play, forechecking and leadership? On the 4th line? Sign me up.
Agreed. I thought he was real good when CGY got to the SCF. Under the radar but solid the whole playoffs.
Oddly, I think signing Knuble makes this more likely. Last year, I think Clark was pressing to come back and the team was pressing to have him back in part because the need was so obvious. Hopefully he can take his time and pick his spots this year.
by Gould Old Days on Aug 7, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m going to go record as a little disturbed Jose Theodore has as many votes as Eric Fehr, Michal Neuvirth, and Shaone Morrisonn combined (five) at this point.
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Florida
|
54 | 26 | 17 | 11 | 63 |
|
Washington
|
54 | 28 | 21 | 5 | 61 |
|
Winnipeg
|
57 | 26 | 25 | 6 | 58 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
54 | 24 | 24 | 6 | 54 |
|
Carolina
|
56 | 20 | 25 | 11 | 51 |
(updated 2.12.2012 at 8:46 AM EST)
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