"You look at some teams like Detroit, they don't have a big heavyweight," Erskine added. "They have guys that battle and everyone sticks up for their teammate. I don't think you need that one guy who that's a legit heavyweight. It's not going to kill us, I don't think."
over 2 years ago
Rob Parker
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Everyone’s spouting the company line, eh? Gordo, last week:
“The game has kind of changed in that regard with the way penalties are called. If you have a good power play … I mean, special teams is half the battle. So I guess if other teams want to take cheap shots, they are going to be in the box. So I guess that’s the way [management is] looking at things.”
And, of course, GMGM setting the tone:
“One thing that happened for sure with the tough guys is their salaries have gone down because people don’t want to spend as much on them because they need the money for more talent. The next step is, do we really need it at all, or should we take a page from Detroit’s book and just throw as much talent at this other team as we can. If people want to screw around, then you beat them up on your power play if you have a good power play.”
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by J.P. on Aug 26, 2009 2:27 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
And Brads, from the same CI post as the Ersky quote:
“It doesn’t matter to me if we have a tough guy or not; I play the same way no matter what,” Bradley said. "A lot of teams nowadays don’t have a tough guy and it works to their advantage. Look at Detroit. They don’t have any tough guys and they always seem to take advantage on the power play.
“So I’m not really worried about that,” he added.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
All of these quotes took the air out of my “Need an Enforcer” balloons. Zephyr summed it up pretty well below in one sentence, and it kind of captures how I feel, “Having one is better than not having one”.
And Hooks, if you stop by this thread, how would Pittsburgh fans feel without Godard, or someone like him, on the regular season roster? Understanding that playoffs are a different story and that many regular season matchups don’t require him being in the lineup. But the option to insert him has to be a little comforting, right?
And Hooks, if you stop by this thread, how would Pittsburgh fans feel without Godard, or someone like him, on the regular season roster? Understanding that playoffs are a different story and that many regular season matchups don’t require him being in the lineup. But the option to insert him has to be a little comforting, right?
Personally I like having a capable heavyweight in the lineup. I agree with your notion that having a legit tough guy, if only to be a deterrent is better than not having one.
Crosby and Malkin took a lot of post-whistle abuse pre March 2007 when the Penguins went and traded for Georges Laraque. As soon as Laraque hit the bench a lot of the chippy crap went out the door, almost immediately.
But then again, Godard played 0 playoff games and we all know how that ended up. To get past Philly (or anyone) you need team toughness. Like Kunitz running over Timonen or Talbot picking a fight or guys like Orpik and Cooke playing physical and throwing checks.
IMO you have to have players that play for the playoffs, but I definitely think there’s a place for the enforcer in regular season games and I’m glad my team has 2 fairly bonified heavyweights in the organization (counting Paul Bissonnette).
Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*
*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night
Gordo has his theories all messed up…..
Special teams is not half the battle….. KNOWING is half the battle….with another 25% being red lasers, and the other 25% blue lasers……DUH
by WolfPackof1 on Aug 27, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I think that enforcement is more effective when everyone’s involved than when you’ve got a single heavyweight. What’s more worrisome when you’ve just run the other team’s goalie, six guys with bad attitudes or one guy with a REALLY bad attitude?
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
Of course. And what message is really sent when you’re 800-pound gorilla dances with theirs?
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I don’t know. I’ve been on teams where there is one guy that no one wants to mess with because you know he could rip the head off of a bear.
So I’m going to say 1 800lb gorilla because you don’t usually see 6 guys teaming up on one guy.
With that said, I don’t think we need an enforcer but having one is better than not having one.
But if he’s never on the ice?
And you don’t? How about the collection in front of the goal that happens after play is stopped in a chippy game? That’s what I was thinking about.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
It’s easy to put him onto the ice.
And no, I haven’t ever seen a bunch of guys fighting one other player. Unless you’re talking about after whistle “play” which is just a bunch of guys pushing and shoving each other while saying stuff about their moms. Big whoop, it’s similar to a push fight on a playground. No one in the NHL is intimidated by that.
How many guys are good enough players to give you significant minutes, and good enough fighters to be legitimate heavyweight “deterrents.” Not many. Maybe Lucic, maybe a couple D. Problem is, do you want the guys that are that skilled fighting a lot? Most coaches don’t. Heavyweights only fight each other, so unless you are a heavyweight you aren’t going to be afraid of Brash; if you are a heavyweight, you aren’t afraid of anyone, so what’s the point? Sean Avery and Steve Ott know they aren’t gonna be fighting Brash or Godard or Laraque or Parros. Those guys fight Darcy Tucker or Matt Bradley or someone like that. Fear isn’t a factor in those fights. Yeah having a heavyweight can be a nice luxury, but would you give away a roster spot to a quality player just to get one on the ice? Would you sit Darren Helm just so you could give a thug 5-6 minutes, tops?
A man must have a code.
by Rob Parker on Aug 27, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Would you sit Darren Helm just so you could give a thug 5-6 minutes, tops?
No, but I’d sit a Nylander, Clark, or Slumping Forward Du Jour (Flash, Fehr) if I were going into a matchup against a team that likes the rough stuff. To me, it’s about having the option to put a heavyweight in the lineup, which the Caps currently don’t have. We’ve had a great one for the past three years. None of us know what it’s going to be like for the Young Guns without one. Clearly many people think it will be fine and dandy while others, like me, are slightly concerned.
We will soon find out.
Well Nyls and Clark sat most games anyway, and Fehr was injured early in the PIT series so they were all on the bench anyway. I’m not getting into Flash because I can’t even begin to figure out BB’s angle on him (but he still vastly out-produced any heavyweight in the league). How much money are you willing to give a heavyweight? What are you willing to give up off your roster to get a heavyweight on? If signing the heavyweight is the difference between being able to afford Borque or Alzner on the big club, do you still want the guy on the team?
A man must have a code.
Good questions. I don’t think what Brash had been given the last few years was unreasonable. But the per year dollars that the NYR gave him is too much, even if it was a one-year deal. For a top-notch guy, I’m cool with a million per. But NOT at the length Toronto gave Orr. That kind of surprised me, and I had secretly been hoping Orr was a guy the Caps went after. But if that’s what it took to get him, no thanks.
Your last question might be the very reason we don’t have one of these guys signed. I’m not 100% opposed to accepting the risk of going into the season without an Orr or Brashear, but I also have some moderate concern about our current projected roster meeting the “toughness” quotient, or at the very least, making it until Thanksgiving with their orbital bones intact. But to answer your last question: Alzner, no….Bourque and his 12 NHL GP and 1 point, yes. I don’t see Bourque’s 577K hit being the difference between picking up one of these guys or not, or for that matter, affecting any other transaction considerations.
To me, it comes down to this:
Caps with Brashear play the Wild and Derek Boogaard:
33% chance Brashear and Boogaard fight
- If they fight, 50% chance (17% net) that the Caps get an emotional lift
- If they fight, 50% chance (17% net) that the Wild get an emotional lift
67% chance that the two don’t fight
2% chance Brashear scores a goal
Caps without Brashear play the Wild and Derek Boogaard:
50% chance Boogaard is a healthy scratch
50% chance Boogaard gets a sweater, skates 5-10 minutes
- If Boogaard dresses, 2% chance (1% net) that he fights Clark or Erskine. If that happens, Caps probably get an emotional lift regardless of fight outcome
100% chance Brashear’s position as 4th line wing goes to a more skilled player than Brashear
8% chance the player who takes Brashear’s place scores a goal
Doesn’t look to me like Brashear’s contribution is worth 1.4 Million
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 27, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t look to me like Brashear’s contribution is worth 1.4 Million
I think we’d all agree on that, especially for two years on a 37 year old who already is a half step behind his 4th line teammates.
Not so sure I’d agree with your percentages of everything. For instance, you think the Rangers wouldn’t have liked to dress Colton Orr for that game where Brash dropped Betts with a shot to the head? Either to confront the Donald or take retribution? I bet they would have liked that back.
Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*
*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night
by Hooks Orpik on Aug 27, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
What exactly would dressing Orr have accomplished? A five minute major for the Caps to tee off on Hank? A little blood back the other way to make the fans feel better? Orr takes up one more roster spot and considering the Rags were already way in over there head when you considered talent v. talent how does that help? Orr playing in that game changes nothing.
A man must have a code.
This is how I feel about it. It’s a non sequitor for me that Colton Orr’s presence would have made anything about that situation better. I don’t get how that would make any difference at all.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 28, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ve said all of those same things before. It’s not like that’s news.
The thing is a lot of the chippy stuff ends when you have a so-called enforcer on your team.
The little guys may not be getting the crap beaten out of them but they sure don’t want their teammate having to go to bat for them either over small stuff.
My point still stands is that it’s better to have one than to not have one.
Do I care that Brashear is gone? No, not really. I think the money is much better suited going to B-Mo.
The thing is a lot of the chippy stuff ends when you have a so-called enforcer on your team.
I think this is what it all comes down to. I’m not sold that this is actually true anymore. It’s an empirical question (and a nightmare to collect the data) but I honestly haven’t been able to see any difference in the way teams play when the other team dresses and enforcer compared to when they don’t.
A man must have a code.
This is how I feel. Does the presence of an enforcer alter Avery’s play in the slightest? If not, what is the enforcer good for?
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 29, 2009 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions
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