The Ones That Got Away
by J.P. on Aug 24, 2009 11:00 AM EDT
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As we noted in this morning's Clips, today is Andrew Brunette's birthday. The Caps' second seventh round pick in 1993 (after Daniel Hendrickson) has had a heck of an NHL career for a guy who was left unprotected (and was subesquently taken) in the 1998 NHL Expansion Draft - his next point will be his 600th, and, barring a major injury, he'll play his 900th NHL game some time this upcoming season.
All of this got us wondering - which Caps' draft pick has scored the most points for a team other than the Caps? We're more curious as to who have been "the ones that got away" than which players gave the Caps a number of great years before moving on, so you won't see guys like Mike Gartner (546 points for other teams), Scott Stevens (479), or Ryan Walter (369) on this list. Here, then, is a list of the top ten non-Cap point totals for Caps draftees, with a minimum of 80% of the player's career games played being for someone other than the Caps:
So Brunette's your big winner. A few other notes:
- Ranking by point totals undervalues guys like Evason and Taylor (grinders who never put up huge point totals) and defensemen, generally - 700+ NHL games played is nothing to sneeze at. But these guys are fairly easily replaced, and the two at the top are easily the most gifted, offensively.
- The next guy to make it on this list will probably be Johnny Oduya, whose 233 games played and 66 points have all come for the Devils.
- The other guys that would have made this list without the "80%" criterion are Bobby Carpenter (333 non-Cap points), Dmitri Khristich (296), Robert Picard (267), Kevin Hatcher (251), Richard Zednik (245), Sergei Gonchar (218), Gaetan Duchesne (208), Stephen Leach (186), Jan Bulis (157) and Keith Jones (131).
- The goalie version of this list would only feature Byron Dafoe (405 of his 415 NHL games being played for teams other than the Caps) and Peter Sidorkiewicz (246-for-246).
There's your spilled milk list - not much to cry over, is there?
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I have to say, Johnny Oduya was an eye-opener for me because I didn’t even know he was a Caps draftee until earlier this summer. The one that actually hurts me is Gonchar. Growing up watching this guy for a solid eight years only for him to end up winning a cup with Pitt was tough to watch.
Yeah, but Gonchar turned into Morrisonn and the picks used on Schultz and Yunkov – at least they got real value for him at a time when he wouldn’t have been worth the cost of keeping him.
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What I don’t like about Gonchar is he wanted out to play with a winning team to promptly sign with league-worst PIT. Granted, that move worked out, but not for several more seasons.
by red army line on Aug 24, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Witt went to a playoff team and brought us the pick that got Varlamov. I’m not mad at him.
A man must have a code.
Witt was traded to Nashville because he said he wanted out so he could play for a contender, and GMGM accommodated him. But at the end of that year he signed with the Islanders, and then re-signed with him, which is what the other poster is referring to about Witt complaining about the Caps rebuild then signing with a bottom feeder.
by Killer_Carlson on Aug 24, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
He wanted to be out at the start of the season, and he hung around and was a good teammate until the deadline. He got to go to the playoffs then he was a UFA. The Pisles overpaid for him and he couldn’t get comparable money from a contender so he took it. In retrospect there is no way he deserved the K he got, and no way we deserved the First Round pick we got. I’m cool with how it played out.
A man must have a code.
His (Gonchar’s) giveaway to Straka is what soured me on him. The rest of it was all just icing on the crap cake.
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by J.P. on Aug 24, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah oduya hurts…
the jason allison thing doesnt though…he was given some pretty ample opportunity to do something and it was sitll a good trade even as good as he was
didnt paul cavallini come back as part of that dino-for-reekie string? ( i think it was dino-kevin-cava-reekie?)
and as far as gonchar is concerned…you cant look at players like a part of an engine, they are individuals and the fact is…for us…he was so horrible defensively, it was time to move him on
I’m not sure I agree that Allison got a fair chance here (though I do agree that the trade was still worth making). Sure, he got games, but the minutes he got in those games weren’t the kind that develop scorers, imo.
And Cavallini came back to Washington for Kevin Miller, who had been acquired for Ciccarelli a few months prior.
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and then i think he left one-for-one for reekie right???
i remember cause i was so pissed about dino-for-mill trade but i remember thinking “well at least we got reekie out of it”
and jason allison.. do you really think if jason allison had stayed in washington he would have gotten 95 points in 82 games??
by luketheriault on Aug 24, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Nope, but there is a Reekie tie-in not too far removed – Cavallini left one-for-one for Enrico Ciccone. Later, Reekie, was “traded to Washington by Tampa Bay for Enrico Ciccone, Washington’s 3rd round choice (later traded to Anaheim – Anaheim selected Craig Reichert) in 1994 Entry Draft and the return of conditional draft choice transferred in the Pat Elynuik trade (October 22, 1993), March 21, 1994.”
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Trades have a way of yielding dividends down the road… sometimes wa-a-a-a-ay down the road
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Aug 24, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
So basically you’re saying that trades, like drafting, involves crystal-ball-gazing and is therefore something of a crapshoot.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
No, just that the trade in front of you might not be where the benefit lies, or at least in an obvious sense. From the one I cited, the original trade yielded the immediate benefit of Rod Langway, which saved the franchise, but several generations removed also yielded Joe Juneau (taking one fork) and Jor Reekie (taking another), both vital cogs in some successful Caps teams.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Aug 24, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d be curious to see how the Caps list compares to some other teams. I’ve got a feeling Andrew Brunette would look like a blip on the radar when compared to other team’s blunders. For example,the name Mike Knuble comes to mind.
DET won a Cup with him barely playing then won 3 Cups and lost a 4th in game 7 since he left. They also came up with Holmstrom to clean the garbage up. I don’t think they are kicking themselves that much over that one.
A man must have a code.
Knuble has “only” scored 415 points since moving on from Detroit (and, to further soften the blow somewhat, the Wings used the pick they got in the Knuble trade to NYR to take Tomas Kopecky).
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So you’re saying they regret trading for Lang more than they regret trading away Knuble?
A man must have a code.
I’m saying that with the Cups they’ve won, they probably don’t regret much at all.
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to further soften the blow somewhat, the Wings used the pick they got in the Knuble trade to NYR to take Tomas Kopecky
I can’t tell if you’re joking about Kopecky or not, though based on his stats I assume you are. Detroit used a second round draft choice on him and only got 12 goals and 20 points in three seasons and now they’ve let him go as a free agent to Chicago. As to whether winning three cups lessens the blow of losing Knuble for basically nothing, I’m sure it helps. However, if you make your living evaluating talent, it always stings to give up on a guy too early. That’s probably why GMs will hang on to a player with “promise” for too many years.
All good points, and I wasn’t really being sarcastic – any time you draft an NHL-capable player after the lottery, you’ve done a decent job.
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Markus Naslund scored 802 points for teams other than the one by which he was drafted.
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Philly trading away Forsberg for Lindros? Over their careers, I mean.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 24, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Gotta suck for ATL to see how well Braydon Coburn’s doing in PHI
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 24, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Though it can’t possibly come as a surprise to anyone. At all.
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And, since the blog just did the crossover thing with LA, its gotta suck for them as well to see David Steckel doing great over here
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 24, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they regret letting Chara go a whole lot more. (If memory serves and it was them who let Chara go to Boston.)
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
….And Luongo, and Redden and Berard and Bertuzzi and Eric Brewer and…
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 24, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
… the pick used on Jason Spezza (2nd overall), and…
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How in the hell did Milbury get a job doing NHL TV with a resume like that? Don’t you think he’d be rejected on pure incompetence?
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 24, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
….Tim Connolly and Darius Kasparitus and ruining Tommy Salo’s life and…
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 24, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Those who can’t do…
…work in the studio.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Aug 24, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Come on. Their plan has worked out perfectly. All of that was so that they could get Okposo and Tavares.
I am excited for the early season Islander’s games against the Caps. I’m interested to actually see Tavares play.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 24, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I knew Bill Houlder stuck around for awhile, but I had no idea it was 850 games awhile.
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Houlder was a good player… he had a hard time breaking into a defense with three Hall-of-Fame players (Langway, Stevens, Murphy) and a perennial All-Star (Hatcher)… it would have been tough for just about anyone to break into the line up.
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 24, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
He also often sported one hell of a moustache:
Agreed that he was solid, but if you’d set the over/under at 800 career NHL games, I’d have taken the under – like BP, I hadn’t thought he’d been around that long (or played that much).
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Great ’stache… alas, he was in the NHL at the same time as Lanny McDonald, or he would have gotten more recognition for it.
I always liked Houlder when he was here in DC. His instincts were good, he made smart passes out of the defensive zone, had some speed (he was faster than most of the Caps D at the time, certainly faster than Hatcher, Langway or Stevens) and he had a knack for scoring timely goals (he scored one game tying goal in the 1989-90 season vs. Calgary with like 6 seconds left in regulation…)
And by the uniform he’s wearing the photo, looks like he was playing for the Preds when the photo was taken…
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 24, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I bet you were hoping for a Houlder comment just as an excuse to use the photo, too… ;)
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 24, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I never need an excuse to post pics of awesome facial hair, but will rarely pass one up.
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by J.P. on Aug 24, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lessons to take away from a pretty mediocre list:
1: The Caps have been pretty good at assessing their own talent;
OR
2: The Caps have never drafted well enough to pick many players who did very well, even for other teams.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 24, 2009 11:50 AM EDT reply actions
The second point rings truer to me (whenever I’ve looked at the Caps’ draft record overall, it’s somewhat underwhelming), but I’m sure the first one has some validity.
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really random question..does anyone remember who the players were on the “A-B-C” line in the 90’s…i know brunette was on it but i can’t remember the other two
Could’ve been Allison and Carter at times, though none of them were playing regularly enough back then to have lines named after them, so that’s probably not it. I don’t recall an ABC line, frankly, but my memory ain’t what it used to be.
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Those were the two names that came to mind, and I think it was them, because they were kids (Jackson 5, after all). i’m still boggled that they let Allison go when they did – he barely had a chance.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 24, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
That trade brought back a pretty good yield – Oates (who eventually turned into Semin), a Finals appearance, etc., but the best part? Sinden had given Poile the choice of which Caps’ G to include in the deal and Poile chose to move Jim Carey and hold on to Olie Kolzig.
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Poile is a good GM, all considered. Nashville before the financial mess was well built.
by DrinkingPartner on Aug 24, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Even through the financial mess the last couple years they’ve remained competitive. I give a ton of credit to Poile and Trotz.
A man must have a code.
Does this just show that the Caps draft bad players that don’t even go on to succeed with other clubs?
The franchise made the playoffs for a bazillion consecutive years. At that point, you’re not in a position where you’re not necessarily drafting the best talent in the draft every year.
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 24, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
That should be “youre in a position” – the “not”
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 24, 2009 12:33 PM EDT reply actions
I’m certainly not losing any sleep over that list from losing guys standpoint.
Late last year a friend of mine went back and looked at Caps draft history. Explains a lot about the list. Caps franchise overall has not had a great history draft wise. We seem to have more than fair share of early round busts and far too few late round gems.
So, on that thread, who are the diamonds in the rough that Washington has drafted?
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Bondra was an 8th round pick. Current potential late round gems are Holtby and Osala (4th), Perreault (6th), SDR (7th). We’ll see how those guys turn out.
A man must have a code.
The face of the franchise was an eighth rounder? How about that! Learn something new every day. =)
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I think Bondra may have been drafted under the old rules. Some complicated thing that all but forced teams to take slightly older European players in the later rounds. One of our lovely experts can either tell me I’m dead wrong, or explain it better.
When Bondra was drafted, he would have needed to defect from Czechoslovakia to play in the NHL. By the time he got to DC, there was a transfer agreement in place between the NHL and the Czechoslovak hockey authority.
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 24, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d add Brunette (7th round), Khristich (6th), Duchesne (8th), Klee (9th), Zednik (10th)…
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This might be worth a look for you, too.
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Kristich & Bondra were the two I was thinking of. In 30+ years you need a few more than that. :-)
by Carl Putnam on Aug 24, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
The goalie version of this list would only feature Byron Dafoe (405 of his 415 NHL games being played for teams other than the Caps) and Peter Sidorkiewicz (246-for-246).
You know it’s August when you see Peter Sidorkiewicz’ name more than once in any given week.
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Larry Murphy?
booed out town, and goes on to win 4 cups on his way to the HOF
Your favorite meme is dead
One would think there’s a lesson to be learned there among the Schultz-haters ….
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
To reinforce the lesson, Gonchar – similarly offensively-gifted but accident-prone D who went on to round out his game and win what we’re still wandering the desert looking for.
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Murphy also pooped the bed during his time in Toronto, so he’s not above criticism for inconsistent play.
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 24, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
And the last year or two in DC…
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 24, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
i thought I heard on XM one day that in the Caps trade to get Dale Hunter from Quebec we gave them the pick which became Joe Sakic. Not sure how to validate that though.
Not sure if that counts in this list though.
Promote the game, it's the NHL, not SCHL
Definitely true (Hunter, Malarchuk and the pick for Duchesne and Haworth), and it doesn’t count on this list b/c the Caps never drafted him.
And since it was the 15th pick overall, we shouldn’t beat ourselves up over it – plenty of teams passed on Burnaby Joe, and the Caps might have too.
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kewl, just a random factoid stuck in my head that popped out while reading this.
Thanks for clarifying
Promote the game, it's the NHL, not SCHL
No prob. And for future reference, players’ HockeyReference.com pages have info on the trades in which they were involved. For example, here’s Hunter’s page and you’ll see the trade we’re talking about at the bottom.
And here’s another (related) factoid for you – the Caps drafted Joe Sakic’s little brother in the 1990 draft.
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Biggest bargain of that draft...
Just for the heck of it, Theoren Fleury went in the 8th round, 166th overall, 4 picks after the Capitals picked the immortal Thomas Sjogren
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Aug 24, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
When you trade a draft pick and don't get one in return...
…you can think of the player you got as the pick. Getting Hunter 15th in this draft would have been good. In looking at the players picked ahead of Sakic, there were some great ones: Pierre Turgeon (also linked to Dale Hunter…), Brendan Shanahan, Glen Wesley. A few effective, solid players too: Luke Richardson, Stephane Quintal. I’m sure LA would have liked to have that McBean pick back at #4.
Eventually the Caps got the #17 pick in this draft on their roster (Andrew Cassels) at the tail end of his career. Also Rick Tabbaracci (#26) played for the Caps for awhile. And if you go down to #33, there’s John LeClair. And at #166…is Theo Fleury.
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Aug 25, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
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