#2 Center Slot
by Marshall Pirate on Jul 7, 2009 1:35 PM EDT
46 comments
This was a comment on the Koivu vs Morrison post, but I decided to give it its own fan post.
I just look at who’s available via trade and/or free agency. Saku Koivu and Brendan Morrison seemed like true upgrades over what we have now. Jason Williams might be a good fit, but I don’t see him as significantly better than Brooks Laich. I think he’d be fine here, but why do that?
Other players available via trade include Patrick Marleau ($6.5 cap hit) and Jason Arnott ($4.5) and they’re too expensive. Other free agent centers include Mike Comrie, who’s coming off a sub-par year and is a me-first person. Mike Sillinger is 38. Lang would be good, and I like him, but again, he’s 38, and like Sillinger, is coming off a major injury last season. And at what cost do we get them? The other guys on that list don’t even fit with what we need.
The other interesting guy available via trade? Jeff Halpern. With one year and $2 million left on his contract, we could ship salary eater Morrisonn down there (and whatever other ancillaries like picks and prospects, I don’t really care) since Tampa loves former Caps and needs defenseman. Halpern is a fan favorite, brings grit and such, but he’s really a high #3/low #2 center at his peak. Again, I don’t see him as an upgrade over Laich, who had 53 points and was the #35 highest scoring center in the NHL last season, which, if I’m not mistaken, would put him in #2 center scoring territory, ahead of guys like Brendan Morrison, Todd Marchant, Keith Tkachuk, Jason Williams, Mike Modano, Michael Nylander, and higher than guys who had injuries, like Robert Lang, Saku Koivu, Andy McDonald, Tim Connolly, Brad Richards, Sergei Fedorov, and Doug Weight, and, of course, Mats Sundin. He was also within 5 points of such vaunted centers as Jason Arnott (57), Olli Jokinen (57), Chris Drury (56), and Scott Gomez (58). I think Koivu and Morrison are true upgrades that have potential to work, I think Jason Williams is maybe a slight upgrade (with skill being the priority). Morrison and Williams could be had for less than $3 million, making them affordable. I don’t see Koivu taking less than $4 million.
I think Laich is the logical choice. If Nylander can be the Nylander from 2007-08 (healthy and producing), I don’t have a problem keeping him, but what are the odds of that after last season? We already know Nylander-Semin is a breakaway against waiting to happen. Anton Gustafsson and Marcus Johansson aren’t ready yet. Keith Aucoin might not be bad, but is he really a #2 NHL centerman? Is Mathieu Perreault, another midget like Aucoin, ready to be a #2 NHL center? I don’t see anyone else being a capable #2 center on the roster.
Honestly, if we can get Morrison at $2-2.5 for one year, we shuold grab him. If we can get Williams at 1 year for $2 mil or under, I’d be okay with it. As for Koivu, it would be up to GMGM to decide whether he wants someone of that stature on the roster, because he won’t be cheap, but he’d be a hell of a guy to have on the team.
Barring those moves, Laich should be the man to beat for #2 center. If Nylander’s still here at training camp, I think he has to earn it by beating Laich out for the spot. I also say give Perreault a shot in camp to see what he could do. He had a very solid rookie campaign in the AHL. I think he’s better off with another year in the AHL, but hey, you never know.
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This was a comment on the Koivu vs Morrison post, but I decided to give it its own fan post.
Why?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 7, 2009 1:42 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Told you it wasn’t hard with this group.
by gfcaps fan on Jul 7, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey J.P., what do you think is the right solution for second line center?
[ducks]
by Gould Old Days on Jul 7, 2009 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did you hear, Obama mentioned Ovie today!
by Bald Pollack on Jul 7, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was long enough and detailed enough to warrant its own post, and I thought it deviated enough from the topic of the post I commented on, as it becomes as much about Brooks Laich as it does about free agency and trades. I also think it would garner more attention this way and potentially create more discussion.
I write about what I see and think we ought to do, but I don’t have time to think of everything. I encourage people to tell me I’m right or wrong, but I ask you to tell me why. I’m very happy for the level of support this team has now and I’d love to see what people think about how to make it better. I don’t think Laich is the ideal #2 center, but I think we could make do with him at least as well as we could with many other players. He’s trained as a center, he’s decently skilled, he can take faceoffs, he would be a foil for Semin in that he’s tough and gritty vs silky and skilled, and he can play defense and all special teams. He’d be that net presence on the second line.
The true test of a good #2 center is if he can step in and be a #1 center (Think Ron Francis 1992, Sergei Fedorov 1994, Evgeni Malkin 2008, and the Flyers centers filling in for Daniel Briere this year). I think Nylander (in 07-08) and Fedorov met this criterion, and I think Koivu and Morrison would meet it next year. I’m not so sure Laich meets it, and I’m in the same boat about Jason Williams. I’m certainly doubtful about Keith Aucoin or Mathieu Perreault until I see it.
Of what we have, Nylander has done it before, but I am unsure of where he stands. Laich is the next best available option.
by Marshall Pirate on Jul 7, 2009 2:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Laich is better suited in this offense on the wing
I don’t see Laich at 53 points at 2C next year…He just is not enough of a playmaker. While I concur that the mark of a good #2 is the ability to be a solid #1 when asked, I think another key hallmark of a 2C is versatility: can play in all situations, is a threat to score as much as dish, and controls tempo (another area where Laich really isn’t well suited for center imo).
from the house that Red Jesus built
by bigonetimer on Jul 7, 2009 5:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting ....
Not sure how this would relate to us, but it could leave a trade opening for us with the caveat that we’d have to take on some salary, something I’m not entirely sure we can do a lot of.
That said, I only see two names that pique my interest at all out of their roster that might fit what they’re looking to do, and I doubt they’ll be trading Toews anytime soon, and Dave Bolland at 3.4 is a little pricey for us but might fit a second-line center position. Another young guy – he’s 23 and posted 19/28/47/+19 in the regular season last year, 4/8/12/-1 in the playoffs. I know only what the numbers say, though – can those of you who’ve watched him comment on whether this makes any sense at all?
(Don’t jump me, I’m just floating an idea. Go easy.)
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
by gotsparkly on Jul 8, 2009 11:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know too much about Bolland, but he just got signed for five years. What I do know about his is that he was an exceptional player for Dale Hunter in London and he has put up some good numbers as a pro. I certainly wouldn’t be averse to a player of his caliber playing here, as he appears on the surface, but I personally think we need a guy to play for 1-2 years to be a stopgap while we wait for Johansson and/or Gustafsson (and/or Perreault) to be our #2.
The money wouldn’t be the issue in getting him, it would be his term. Any place he goes if he got traded, he want to be there for the duration of the contract. Anyone else on Chicago you like?
by Marshall Pirate on Jul 8, 2009 12:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone know anything about Kyle Wellwood?
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8469581&view=stats
Apparently the Canucks are looking for a defender to replace Ohlund. Wellwood looks like he has the skill to be a #2 center, he’s a restricted free agent, and only made $1 mil last year, meaning he’d be relatively affordable. We like doing business with Vancouver, too, McPhee’s old stomping grounds.
He’s filled in for Sundin, it appears, as a rookie and did well. He also looks like a spare part in Vancouver. Think he’s worth a shot?
by Marshall Pirate on Jul 8, 2009 12:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I know there are lots of Kyle Wellwood is fat jokes that get made a lot. He showed up out of shape last year. He also got pegged as an underachiever by the Leafs
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jul 8, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
doesn’t look like he’s underachieving in the punani department.
Russian Machine Never Breaks
by macvechkin on Jul 8, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pension Plan Puppets has plenty of good “fat Wellwood” jokes up today.
Rockin' the Red in Section 412
by boutros23 on Jul 10, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to wonder, if Koivu returns to the Habs (sounds like he wants to) will they be shopping Plekanec? I imagine he’ll make less than 3 mil after the year he had, so if we could clear up that space (Pothier/Clark, Mo, etc.) he might be a target if the team actually has an interest in a #2 C.
by brs03 on Jul 8, 2009 1:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Source?
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
by gotsparkly on Jul 8, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Sorry, work got crazy and I didn’t get to look at anything.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
by gotsparkly on Jul 8, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s kind of an odd choice for him, other than a selanne thing
Russian Machine Never Breaks
by macvechkin on Jul 8, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What other choices were there? The only other connection he’d really maybe have is Minny with his brother, but it sounds like any deal there had already fallen through and from earlier comments it sounded like playing with his brother in the NHL wasn’t a huge motivation for him to choose where he might sign.
Playing one last season in the NHL with Selanne is probably the most logical thing for him if his chance in Montreal was through.
by brs03 on Jul 8, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i would have thought minnesota would have nabbed him, otherwise how about taking a one year deal and winning the Cup, HERE. :-)
Russian Machine Never Breaks
by macvechkin on Jul 8, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So much for getting Joe Sakic.
I didn’t really think we’d get Saku Koivu, I just thought he’d be a good option. I think he took a discount to get a chance to play with Teemu Selanne. I’d have taken him at 1 year and $3.25 mil, but would he have taken us at that?
I think perhaps Mats Sundin could be a one year stop-gap, but I have no idea how much money we’d pay him. I don’t think it’s in our best interests to pay over $3 million for a one year sub right now, and Sundin doesn’t seem to be the most committed player right now, and at his age, he’s in the same boat as Robert Lang and Mike Sillinger for me. I like Robert Lang, but he’s 38 and coming off an injury. He played very well for us when we had him, but is he worth a shot? At what cost? And how do we get rid of Nylander.
I think Brendan Morrison is now the best fit for us (max $2.5 mil per year). Next up would be Jason Williams (max of $2 mil per). Obviously the best thing to happen would be for Nylander to wake up and play hockey again, but I think we have to assume he won’t.
I agree about the comment on Brooks Laich, that he’s better suited as a winger in our offense and that he’s not really capable of controlling the tempo of a game, or at least he hasn’t proven he can. I do think he’s a capable fill-in at #2 center and could do it for a year if we needed him to. I do not think he’s a capable fill-in at #1 center, hence why I would like us to sign someone or trade for someone. I think if we want to have legitimate aspirations of making the conference final, we need another center.
I think Jason Williams is a slight upgrade over Laich in this department. I think in a pinch he could play the #1 center spot and we’d survive. I don’t think we’d want him to do it for any length of time, though, but he’d be insurance. I think we had insurance that Laich could fill in at #2 center if someone else went down, but what happens if the #1 isn’t available? We’re in trouble.
Brendan Morrison is the best guy I see available to fill our need for a veteran #2 center who can play as a #1 if necessary. He’s played in Vancouver (a McPhee plus), played 4 years at Michigan and got his Econ degree (another McPhee plus), played 2 years there with Knuble and another with Knuble in Sweden during the lockout, when Knuble led the SEL in goals. He’s also played in the Czech Republic and on three World Championship teams. He’s worldly, and I’ve heard nothing but good things about his character. I think he’d fit right in. I also think his term doesn’t go any longer than Knuble’s, and for less money, unless we can move some big contracts (Jose Theodore, Michael Nylander, Shaone Morrisonn, or, and I hate to say it, Chris Clark).
I think we’d have to be pretty sure we’re in trouble to go with Williams. I don’t know who else is out there we’d really want or would be able to afford.
by Marshall Pirate on Jul 8, 2009 4:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
For the reasons you mentioned, I have to think the team is going to go into the season with what they’ve got if no interesting trades happen. Nylander will get a very brief chance to show he’s not worthless, if that fails Laich (or Aucoin) will plug the hole until a trade/deadline pickup can be made.
Although I would be willing to take a one-year flier on Morrison given the Knuble connection, I just don’t think he has much left to give and I think the Caps want to see what they’ve got in Laich.
by grapejoos on Jul 8, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of possible trades, rumor has it that Chicago needs to dump salary and Byfuglien is a guy they may move. Signed for $3m/year through 2011. His contract is pretty large for the numbers he’s put up but I must admit I’m intrigued. Seems like a lot of possible trades could happen with Chicago, not limited to just him. I could see them being interested in Flash or Mo, for example.
by grapejoos on Jul 8, 2009 9:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You said it yourself, they’re dumping salary. That means we’re not trading with them most likely.
by brs03 on Jul 8, 2009 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pretty much. We’re not a good place to dump salary, really – we don’t have a lot of room of our own.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
by gotsparkly on Jul 8, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CHI really needs to dump salary by the end of this year, when Kane and Toews are up. This is where trading Theo and Semin comes into play…against both unless someone pays a king’s ransom for Semin.
by red army line on Jul 9, 2009 3:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theodore’s contract is up at the end of the season.
by David M. Getz on Jul 9, 2009 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, McPhee isn’t one to want to just take on salary. It’s not as if the Caps operate in the black, they don’t get the revenue from those luxury boxes, that’s all Pollin’s dough. I don’t see us taking on significant salary, especially for more than one year at this point.
Losing Theo after this season will give us the room to increase Semin’s salary (how much more than $5 mil is he going to get?), but really it’s going to be getting rid of Nylander that will help us lock up Backstrom. I don’t know what we do with Pothier, but I would think Carlson is his permanent replacement after this season. That’ll knock 1.7 mil off our cap # (2.5 mil vs 850K). Theo knocks off 3.7 (assuming we don’t pay more than 850K for a backup goalie). Nylander and Clark are each signed for two more years, making that a bit stickier. If Clark returns to anything close to form, I’d want to keep him. Nylander, though, gums up the works. I’d have to say we have to let him play #2 center and try to bump up his value to trade him, because I could stomach him for 20 games or so and we can either win in spite of him or make up ground later, but we can’t afford his salary and the roster spot right now. But If he actually produces like he’s supposed to, I’m all for that.
Don’t forget we’re eventually going to have to give raises to everyone on the roster of some sort, so I think we’ll get that room when Clark’s contract is up. Erskine’s also making a bit more than I’d have paid him, and he’s got it for another 2 years.
I think Backstrom gets a deal similar to the Sedins, I think he’s on par with them in terms of proven production, unless he has a huge year.
I think Semin probably won’t get much more than the $5 million he’s making now unless he puts up a monster season, which he’s certainly capable of.
by Marshall Pirate on Jul 9, 2009 9:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Theo knocks off 3.7 (assuming we don’t pay more than 850K for a backup goalie). Nylander and Clark are each signed for two more years, making that a bit stickier. If Clark returns to anything close to form, I’d want to keep him.
- Theo’s cap hit is 4.5 mil.
- Nyls will be bought out next summer for a $1M cap hit in 2010-11 and 2011-12.
I think Backstrom gets a deal similar to the Sedins, I think he’s on par with them in terms of proven production, unless he has a huge year.
The difference is age. After this season Backstrom will probably have about 245 NHL games played and as many points at age 22. When Henrik Sedin was that age he’d played 242 games and had 104 points (and zero twenty goal seasons).
by David M. Getz on Jul 9, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Assuming Nyls will be bought out is jumping to conclusions at this point. There are plenty of reasons why they might not do that. Also, it’s not a $1 mil hit both years, it’s actually higher the first year due to the way buyout cap hits are calculated.
The cap is going down and every little bit helps.
His NMC is gone so we could waive him if the desire were there and if the cap space were needed.
His salary would be lower than his cap hit, giving him added value to a team that would hover close to the cap floor due to budget constraints.
Nylander’s value next summer will be higher than it is this summer, and the buyout is almost as prohibitive then as it would be now for the ‘10/’11 cap situation.
by brs03 on Jul 9, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re right; I should have been more specific. The “buyout” hit is $1M, the total hit is more in the first year. I had also forgotten his NMC expires (shot version: I am out of it this morning, geez).
I would still imagine moving him to another team, even one close to the salary cap floor is unlikely and I don’t see the Caps demoting him to save space against the cap, although you’re right that it’d be a mistake to rule it out.
by David M. Getz on Jul 9, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MICHAEL NYLANDER BUYOUT FROM CAPGEEK.COM
2010-2011: $2,875,000
2011-2012: $1,000,000
So you could buy him out, pay him $1 Million in 10/11 and $1 Million in 11/12, and have the cap hits listed above. Or you could demote him, pay him $3 Million in 11/12, and have a $ 0 cap hit either year.
I think freeing up almost $3 Million in 10/11 and $1 Million in 11/12 is worth an extra $1 Million of real money paid, but then again I don’t have to pay the bills…
by Gould Old Days on Jul 9, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But keep in mind, lower cap = lower spending otherwise, when in reality the Capitals’ revenue probably won’t be dropping the same way the league average will.
We can afford to spend 3 mil on a minor leaguer, if the cap space is needed, because we’ll almost certainly be spending less on the NHL roster due to a lower cap. So it should even out.
by brs03 on Jul 9, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The other difference is status – Backy’s an RFA, they were UFAs.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 9, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good call on realizing Nylander’s NMC expires after this season. We will dump him after this season if he doesn’t perform again and if we can’t move him now.
As for Theo leaving saving us $3.7 million:
Theodore = $4.5 million
Neuvirth or Johnson = $850,000 or so
4.5 million – 850,000= roughly 3.7 million
I was calculating the difference to see how much more room we’d have. Just because Theo’s gone doesn’t mean we don’t need a backup.
Anyone have an idea what we’d pay Backstrom then, if we’re not using the Sedins as a reference? I figured around $6 mil per would be fair, and the Sedins produced similar numbers to Backstrom, and I’m sure Backstrom wouldn’t mind using them as an example.
D. Sedin__ H. Sedin___ N. Backstrom
07-08__29-45-74__15-61-76___14-55-69
08-09__31-51-82__22-60-82___22-66-88
by Marshall Pirate on Jul 9, 2009 11:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If he wanted to he could force us to go to the 6.5 area, given the contracts Stastny and Kopitar were given (although both of them are depended on as “franchise-lite” players where as Backstrom is firmly behind Ovechkin in that category).
I’m hoping and guessing that he doesn’t take that much, and that favorable term make the contract end up better than either of those were (not to mention the reality of the future economic climate limiting the Caps’ flexibility in that respect).
by brs03 on Jul 9, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quote from the Washington Post Blog:
“Update from Tarik: I’m told that Marcus Johansson wanted to attend the camp, but prior commitments to Farjestad prevented him from being able to come over.
I’m also told that Anton Gustafsson could play in North America this upcoming season (AHL or NHL). It’s his option. He can also return to Sweden if he doesn’t make the Caps."
This could solve our #2 center problem.
by Marshall Pirate on Jul 9, 2009 5:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’d like to see Gustafsson play through an entire NHL training camp and then head back to Sweden for a year. I believe he needs a full length professional season in either the SEL or AHL before he’s ready for the NHL. Playing Brooks Laich in the wrong position wouldn’t be as bad as rushing a prospect and wrecking his development.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 9, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I had to choose between the two, I’d rather he play in the AHL first. Aren’t there some differences between the SEL and North American rules? Certainly there is in style of play, particularly in faceoffs, which as a center will matter to Baby Gus. Without having seen him play, he probably will need another year in the minors, but North American is probably better for his development.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
by gotsparkly on Jul 10, 2009 7:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mentioned this in another thread, but I’m sure the Caps would prefer to have him in the AHL and I bet Gus would prefer to play in the SEL. It’s ultimately up to Gus, I suppose.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 10, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
AG will be fortunate to play 2C in Hershey, methinks…
from the house that Red Jesus built
by bigonetimer on Jul 9, 2009 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah baby gus wont be our 2C. he probably wont even be on the team, unless he has a great camp, then he could get some call ups.
but yeah a year in hershey would be best for him, then he can take a shot at the big club.
by hockeyman33 on Jul 9, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, it’s definitely wishful thinking to think Gustafsson will be our #2, but I can dream.
And you’re right, I think a year in the AHL will do him good.
by Marshall Pirate on Jul 10, 2009 9:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if we can get Morrison at $2-2.5 for one year, we shuold grab him
wow GMGM is great
How do i end the blue box???
by hockeyman33 on Jul 11, 2009 11:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How do i end the blue box???
with the “/” and then blockquote
by twistedlogic on Jul 14, 2009 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Washington
|
22 | 13 | 5 | 4 | 30 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
19 | 8 | 4 | 7 | 23 |
|
Atlanta
|
18 | 10 | 6 | 2 | 22 |
|
Florida
|
20 | 9 | 9 | 2 | 20 |
|
Carolina
|
21 | 4 | 12 | 5 | 13 |
(updated 11.21.2009 at 8:36 AM EST)
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