"It’s somewhat embarrassing that three of the last teams (in the 2009 playoffs) missed the playoffs six or seven years in a row; Washington, Chicago, and Pittsburgh. Now they’re good and the teams that try to win all the time get penalized. Our philosophy has never changed since 1967."
- Flyers Senior VP Bobby Clarke (h/t VFtCS)
over 2 years ago
J.P.
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Without even wading into the draft pick argument, let me just say, it is absolutely hilarious to hear someone who played for the Flyers in the mid-70s complaining about being penalized.
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by winterion on Jul 30, 2009 6:27 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Which philosophy does he mean? Don’t draft goalies? Trade away Peter Forsberg et. al. then alienate the franchise player you got in return? Rush players back from injuries too early? Or overpay for big name players that can’t live up to past performance?
It really is embarrassing that teams that didn’t do well drafted good players and now are competitive. I’m pretty sure that’s exactly the opposite of how the draft is supposed to work. When will the NHL learn? When will the teams that try to win every year, like DET, finally catch a break? If only we could do something to help out the Flyers… they really have been unfairly burdened by the salary cap and draft rules.
by Rob Parker on Jul 30, 2009 6:28 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Mr Clarke, please feel free to keep applying a 1967 NHL business model to the current incarnation of the Flyers.
Signed,
The Rest of the Eastern Conference
by war_capitals on Jul 30, 2009 6:29 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I miss Bobby being the Flyers GM. We used to get nuggets like this much more often. :-)
by Carl Putnam on Jul 30, 2009 6:46 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Hmm, guess Clarke selectively chooses not to remember the Flyers five non-playoff seasons in the early 90s since the team canned him after the ‘89-90 season when they missed the playoffs. He did have some success with the North Stars and Panthers during those bleak years for the Flyers, but facts are facts, they missed five years in a row. Anyone know if the draft picks the Flyers received for their poor finishes ended up aiding in Clarke’s rebuilding of the Flyers upon his return as GM in ‘94-’95? (Don’t have those draft results handy…)
1990: 4th overall pick Mike Ricci
1991: 6th overall pick Peter Forsberg
1992: 7th overall pick Ryan Sittler
by Gould Old Days on Jul 30, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for the info on those draft picks! I’ve heard that those Forsberg and Ricci guys were pretty good haha.
When the arbitrator ruled in favor of the Flyers’ offer for Eric Lindros, Clarke was able to make the most ridiculous trade in the history of the NHL – the above mentioned guys + Ron Hextall, Chris Simon, Kerry Huffman, Steve Duchesne, a 1st round selection (Jocelyn Thibault) in 1993, a 1st round selection (later traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs, later traded to the Washington Capitals – Nolan Baumgartner) in 1994, and $15,000,000 CASH!!! Who does that? (For the record, the Rangers offered Doug Weight, Tony Amonte, Alexei Kovalev, John Vanbiesbrouck and three first round draft picks (1993, 1994 & 1995) and $12 million!!! INSANE!!!)
Shawn Gates over at Hockey Buzz posted a blog a couple days back posing the question What if Quebec had Traded Lindros to the Rangers, not the Flyers? which generated some (occasionally) interesting speculation of how that event would have changed hockey history. My fave post (from user “ggunky”, a Flyers fan):
“…Easy answer, look at the 3 teams involved in the ruling:
Rangers – Won the CUP!
Nordes/Lanch – Won the CUP!
Flyers – Never won anything except a mettling father who never let his kid just play the game!
So what would have happened if Lindros went to NY instead:
Rangers – Never won anything except a mettling father who never let his kid just play the game!
Nordes/Lanch – Won the CUP!
Flyers – Won the CUP!"
It is intriguing to consider how pivotal that arbitrators ruling was. But, it doesn’t change the fact that Clarke was an idiot for offering up that much talent for ONE player! Considering how his relationship with Lindros turned out, it would seem that hockey karma came back and took a big bite out of his posterior haha.
by MetalCapsFan on Jul 31, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Clarke was able to make the most ridiculous trade in the history of the NHL…
Oops! Clarke was actually the Senior VP for the Flyers at the time of the trade for Lindros. Russ Farwell was the GM. That said, as a Senior VP, I’m sure that his input was given considering the magnitude of the decision and his years of prior experience as both a GM and player. So, while not directly his fault, some blame can possibly still be laid at his feet.
ah, i suppose none of the Flyers woes had anything to do with all the draft picks Clarke traded away. Adam Oates for a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and Maxime Oullette, wasn’t it? And thats just the tip of the iceberg. I agree that the Flyers did a good job of remaining competitive, but they were never quite good enough. Despite that amazing overtime game, they were still trying to win the cup with Boucher in net.
So people really don’t think there’s any validity in what he’s saying? Didn’t Pittsburgh have a top two pick like three drafts in a row?
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by Ben Rothenberg on Jul 30, 2009 10:03 PM EDT reply actions
I don’t think there’s anything embarrassing about the Caps, Pens and ‘Hawks being good after some lean years. No one tanked for years to get good draft picks, they re-built. A realization that what you’ve got going on isn’t working or, in the case of the Pens, isn’t financially feasible and then trying a different approach to winning isn’t embarrassing, it’s smart.
Sometimes you’ve gotta blow it up and start over. The real embarrassment is in the teams that don’t and are fine cruising along in mediocrity.
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But for the Flyers, who have fielded (iced?) a real competitive team for all but one year since 1995 to see the Penguins pick up Malkin and Crosby (and the underrated Fleury), the reward for having a team so terrible that it was on the verge of bankruptcy and moving seems hardly kosher.
Pittsburgh’s cup, in my mind, was completely built on past suckage. And it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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by Ben Rothenberg on Jul 30, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
The foundational players there were the result of past suckage and a sham lottery, for sure. But three high picks don’t get you anywhere in the NHL. They’re an incredibly well-built team without any Brieres or Nylanders or other dead-weight eating up tons of cap space, which is how you win in the salary cap era. Any team these days can ice three superstars – it’s what’s around them that is the difference between winning and losing, and what’s around those three in Pittsburgh has little to do with past suckage.
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I think it’s tough to say that the three high picks didn’t get them anywhere, when they’re the top two points guys in the league…
I agree there’s more to it than draft, for sure. But getting top draft picks is a huge boost, and the system rewards lack of success.
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by Ben Rothenberg on Jul 30, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not saying their three high picks didn’t get them anywhere, I’m saying simply having the picks doesn’t get you anywhere – it’s what you do with them (ask Atlanta, for example).
And yes, the system is designed to promote a competitive balance, as it is in the NFL, MLB and NBA. Gotta give fans of losing squads hope for the future, no?
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I’m all for parity and not having a team stuck in the basement forever, but as a fan of a team that has had SO many near misses in the last twenty years, its tough seeing a team like Pittsburgh get pulled out of the garbage and onto the podium so quickly, while the Flyers are stuck with first round picks in the ~20 range (that get traded often anyhow, but that’s another issue).
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by Ben Rothenberg on Jul 30, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, I hear you. I don’t think you’ll find too many folks around here who were at the Cup parade cheering.
But this is part of being a fan – you got years of exciting, competitive, hope-filled hockey while folks on the other side of the state were having their guts ripped out wondering if their beloved team was moving to Kansas City. If Detroit wins that Game 7 – one game – in June, I think you’d rather take your lot in fanhood over the past decade than trade places with a Pens fan.
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Past suckage leaving a bad taste in your mouth…that made me laugh.
One thing, please: don’t lump us entirely in with Pittsburgh. We didn’t have a rigged 2005 draft lottery since we weren’t threatening to leave town so Mario Lemiuex could get paid.
Russian Machine Never Breaks
We didn’t have a rigged 2005 draft lottery since we weren’t threatening to leave town so Mario Lemiuex could get paid.
If you’re going to throw out a claim of a vast conspiracy that insults the integrity of a number of people, you need to have some evidence to support it.
Think what you want, it was rigged. Without The Golden Boy they aren’t getting a new arena and that team is moving to Hamilton so Lemieux can get paid. If that insults anyone’s integrity, tough shit.
Russian Machine Never Breaks
The claim that the lottery was fixed to help the Penguins doesn’t hold any more water to me than the claims I’ve heard that the previous year’s lottery was fixed so the Capitals would land Ovechkin because Leonsis was one of Bettman’s supporters in the fight for a salary cap for the same reason: there’s simply not any evidence to support it other than “this is in some remote sense feasible and it’d make for a hell of a story”.
The structure of the draft itself was ridiculous, with the thirty team lottery and the way balls for selection were allocated, there’s no doubt about that, but that is a separate issue.
Ultimately I just don’t think it’s any more fair to come out and accuse Mario Lemieux or Gary Bettman of something like this without any evidence than it would be for someone here to insistent post claims that you or I cheated on my income taxes despite the fact that they had no evidence.
I don’t have the time or impetus to devote my life’s work to proving the lottery was rigged. There is enough motive (Lemieux getting paid without moving the team) to establish the need for rigging it. Also, factor in that Bettman learned from the best (Stern) at fixing draft lotteries.
I’m pretty sure it wasn’t long ago that people were complaining that NBA games were fixed and you were riding your high horse about how nobody had the evidence, blah, blah, blah. See what your eyes see.
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For the record, I don’t follow the NBA and I’ve never followed the NBA so I don’t/didn’t have any opinion on any aspect of how the NBA operates.
There is enough motive (Lemieux getting paid without moving the team) to establish the need for rigging it.
Motive isn’t enough. There’s motive for me to cheat on my taxes, steal money out of coworkers wallets when no one is looking, and take food from the snack table at work without contributing to the jar, but I do none of these things and I’d resent someone saying I do just because it would benefit me and/or without any evidence. I don’t think that puts me on a high horse, I think that makes me a reasonable person.
I’d be lying if I said I didn’t think it was possible the draft was fixed – in fact I’d be less the surprised if that turned out to be the case. I just think we owe them the respect of assuming their innocence in the public sphere unless we have hard evidence otherwise; that’s all.
I guess one could construe this to be a private capitals-fans-only sphere where that’s ok to talk about, but honestly, rigged or not, I think the way that draft was decided was a sham, and I know a bunch of people who agree with me.
The saddest part is I don’t think there was a way to truly make that draft fair. All I can say, conspiracy or not, the Penguins got a number 2 pick and a number 1 pick after one season, and after the same season, the Caps, with very close point numbers (too tired to look it up right now) got a 1 and a 14 or something. I don’t think that’s fair.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
No one tanked...
Matt Yeats would like to have a quiet word with you.
by bilspacecadet on Jul 31, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Really? Did the Red Wings draft a bunch of first and second picks the years leading up to all their Cups? And I am pretty sure that the Avalanche might have won all their Cups with the PLAYERS CLARKE GOT RID OF! So no, there is absolutely no validity to what he is saying.
by zambonirider on Jul 30, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Hhhhhhmmmmmm. You haven’t changed your philosophies since the 60s AND you haven’t won. Interesting. I can’t wait for another season of broad street suckage!
by marks4java on Jul 30, 2009 10:12 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I don’t mean to start fights at all, but the Caps and Flyers went out to the same team last year, and have won the same number of Cups since 1976 (though the Flyers have made four more finals).
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by Ben Rothenberg on Jul 30, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
We Caps fans shouldn’t cast stones regarding someone else’s Cup drought.
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by J.P. on Jul 30, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think alot of Caps fans are forgetting the fact that WE HAVENT WON ANYTHING YET!! We are good, but havent broken through yet…and thats not to say its even coming, I think we’ve got a long way to go so we shouldnt be gloating yet.
by DonCaps819 on Jul 30, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But on the other hand, it isn’t our GM that is complaining, and it isn’t our fans that are defending him.
Would be pretty ridiculous for the Caps GM to complain about teams benefiting from bad stretches…
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by Ben Rothenberg on Jul 31, 2009 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Would be pretty ridiculous for theCapsany GM to complain about teams benefiting from bad stretches…
You know, because that’s how the rules are actually meant to operate.
Don’t forget that the Caps had one of the longest runs of making the playoffs in consecutive years in the 1980s under Poile. Poile’s philosophy was exactly what Clarke is saying here in this article. Stay competitive every year and hope to punch through one of those years. It saved the Caps’ franchise, but it didn’t bring a Cup.
No, it took blowing up the team, getting young, and adjusting to a salary cap era before there even was a salary cap in place to get the Caps the talent they have now.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 31, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
add in finally tossing the old “defense first” mind set that has been a hallmark of the Caps forever (no offense to Hanlon, who was the right guy those first couple of years and did all he could with what little he had with an incredible amount of class and lack of crying) and turning into an offensive juggernaut that every team fears facing. Its a total 180 in the philosophy of what “Caps Hockey” is.
Yeah, that was great when Philly drafted Eric Lindros.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 31, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
As much as I complain about how filthy Philthy is, I hate the Penguins (and their mode of operation) a lot worse.
Penguin season: Spend most of the first half of the team s*cking. Be just out of the playoff hunt. Sign up (or trade) for rentals. Make playoffs. Win playoffs (unfortunately)
You can’t underestimate the effect of Gonchar’s return to the lineup or the team’s coaching change in the Penguins rebound, though.
by David Getz on Jul 31, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec’d, sir!
Also, isn’t it ironic that they get a guy like Bylsma to coach the team and they get dramatically better in no time? What percentage of that was just getting rid of Therrien and what percentage was it Bylsma imparting his approach to the game on his players?
Where’s Hooks when ya need him???
by war_capitals on Jul 31, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m still bitter about Pitt so obviously tanking the last game of the 2007-2008 season. What an effing embarrassment and an insult to the sport.
Don’t forget that last season the Penguins had to go out and get some wingers who could actually play, too. Even with Gonchar back, and promoting Bylsma, that is not a Cup-winning team without Guerin and Kunitz.
I’m still bitter about Pitt so obviously tanking the last game of the 2007-2008 season.
What made it “so obvious”?
I felt like, for a team who had the Eastern Conference regular season title within grasp with a win, there was absolutely zero fight, effort, or desire on display on the ice that day. NONE. Penguins win, they have to play those same Flyers, a team that got hot at the right time, in the first round. Penguins lose, they get the Senators, who brought who new meaning to “second-half slump.” While I don’t know if their was an articulated decision to blow the game so they didn’t have to face the Flyers in the first round, that’s sure what it looked like on the ice.
Well, you’ve got the motive, means, and opportunity, so there’s a pretty strong case there. Fair enough – though I think it was more of a ‘eh, we’re probably better off if we lose this game, so whatever’ than ‘hey, guys, do everything in your power to lose this’.
I’m not Hooks and I don’t write for Pensburgh, but my guess is that it was about 60% Bylsma, 40% removal of a coach who was, by a number of reports, disliked by a lot of the players on the team.
Taskmaster coaches are fine, but their decisions have to make a lot of sense or they’re going to have problems.
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The more I think of it, the more it kind of seems like the pot calling the kettle black.
Penguin season: Spend most of the first half of the team s*cking. Be out of the playoff hunt. Replae the old, defense-first coach whose message has worn thin with your AHL affiliate coach who brings new enthusiasm and a more open style of play. Sign up (or trade) for rentals. Make playoffs. Win playoffs (unfortunately)
Capitals 07-08 season: Spend most of the first half of the team s*cking. Be out of the playoff hunt. Replae the old, defense-first coach whose message has worn thin with your AHL affiliate coach who brings new enthusiasm and a more open style of play. Sign up (or trade) for rentals. Make playoffs. Win playoffs (unfortunately)
by David Getz on Jul 31, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Except the Caps were the worst team in the NHL not in 10th place in the Conference, and they weren’t a cup finals team the year before.
How many times did the Flyers make the playoffs in the first half of the 1990s…oh that’s right, they didn’t. They missed the playoffs 5 years in a row and ended up getting a bundle of draft picks that became good players (ya know, guys like Peter Forsberg…)
Ah well, it’s Bobby Clarke… so it really doesn’t matter.
Let's go Caps!
The shame of it all is that after sucking for 5 years and getting all those high draft picks, Philadelphia couldn’t win it all with Lindros, LeClair, etc.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 31, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
the real key to that team was the sensational trade clarke pulled off with montreal…bringing in leclair, desjardins and dionne, shipping out recchi and a 3rd-round pick. i’ll admit that leclair is maybe my favorite non-cap ever.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 31, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I absolutely despise him. Probably for the same reasons you like him. {grin}
by Gould Old Days on Jul 31, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Eeh, I’d take Cam Neely over John LeClair, personally (injury-prone and all), for a poor man’s Esposito. That said, there’s a lot to be said for power forwards. Cue the new guys?
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neely = poor man’s esposito
leclair = poor man’s neely
knuble = poor man’s leclair
clark = poor man’s knuble?
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 31, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Does that make Clark a homeless guy in a third-world country’s Esposito?
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This brings up an even more curious pet project – trying to list all the active “power forwards” in the league, top to bottom. Who tops that list presently? Getzlaf? Franzen? Iginla?
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Seconded.
I’d say it’s Ovie, Iginla, Nash. I don’t really think of Getzlaf as a power forward, but I just have a hard time considering any C a power forward. Then again, one could legitimately question the power forward label for any of the guys I mentioned.
I don’t think there is any doubt about AO or Iginla. Nash and Getzlaf I think are power forwards as well but I guess I could see people questioning it. The only reason people don’t consider AO a power forward is because he scores from further than 10 feet away from the net and does it with more flair and finesse than we are used to seeing from “power forwards.”
D had a great line on this yesterday (I think) about how these descriptions (“sniper,” “playmaker,” etc.) only really matter in video games. Elite NHL players aren’t so easily pigeonholed.
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Not even enforcers?
Oh, wait.. elite. Hmm. Nevermind..! :)
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Heh. Maybe elite enforcers can be pigeonholed.
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I’d like to see you try to pigeonhole one of them!
by Gould Old Days on Jul 31, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I think a lot of people around here would like to see me spend a few minutes in a dark alley with an NHL heavyweight…
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No, I know who’s at the top of the list, but I’ve got fans too. Oh well – can’t make pancakes without cracking a few eggs.
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Bobby Clarke = Public Choice Theory applied to hockey
You keep losing to a team with a goalie that is elite at playing the puck? Lobby to make it illegal for goalies to play the puck!
You keep losing to a team built around lottery draft picks? Lobby to change the way the draft is ordered!
Sounds like a sound business model to me :D.
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by Ben Rothenberg on Aug 1, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Washington
|
53 | 28 | 21 | 4 | 60 |
|
Florida
|
52 | 24 | 17 | 11 | 59 |
|
Winnipeg
|
55 | 25 | 24 | 6 | 56 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
52 | 23 | 24 | 5 | 51 |
|
Carolina
|
55 | 20 | 25 | 10 | 50 |
(updated 2.9.2012 at 9:25 AM EST)
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