The Southeast Division's Top Ten Defensemen
by J.P. on Jul 30, 2009 6:45 AM EDT
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Keeping with this week's Southeast theme at The Rink (and with nary a mention of Tim Tebow... oops), today we're going to take a look at the division's top ten defensemen. It's a list that was a heck of a lot more impressive thirteen months ago, when Dan Boyle and Jay Bouwmeester were still on Sunshine State rosters, and one that should come into its own again in a couple of years when prospects Victor Hedman, Karl Alzner, John Carlson join some of the youngsters who made the list below. But for now, it's a list that makes you realize that the impressive list of forwards we counted down yesterday haven't necessarily been facing top-notch intra-divisional opponents. Let's dive right in and you'll see what we mean.
Just missing the cut (I'd call this "Honorable Mention," but there's not much honor in not being able to crack this Top Ten): Joe Corvo, Tom Poti, Andrej Meszaros, Ron Hainsey, Tim Gleason, Aaron Ward.
10. Anton Babchuk (Carolina Hurricanes)
The 6'5", 25-year-old Babchuk had a breakout season in 2008-09, scoring 16 goals (tied for fifth in the League), posting the best plus-minus on the Division's best defensive team and taking just eight minor penalties in 72 games. He might be higher on this list if he got more ice time, though more responsibility may not necessarily agree with Babs.
9. Jeff Schultz (Washington Capitals)
Eat it, haters. Last time we checked, the point of hockey was to score more goals than your opponent does, and Sarge has the best plus-minus of any defenseman in the division since he entered the League in 2006-07.
8. Bryan McCabe (Florida Panthers)
McCabe pumped in another 15 goals in 2008-09, and scored 'em at the sixth-best rate among NHL defensemen. He created goals at the eleventh-highest rate among the League's blueliners and while he's never going to wow anyone with his defense... well, let's just leave it at that.
7. Mattias Ohlund (Tampa Bay Lightning)
The miles seem to be catching up with Ohlund a bit (2008-09 was the worst offensive campaign of his career), but he is still a solid rearguard. At least that's what the Bolts are hoping.
6. Pavel Kubina (Atlanta Thrashers)
Kubina's atrocious minus-15 rating jumps off the screen at you, but he was plus-12 over the previous two seasons. Then again, he is minus-102 over his eleven-year NHL career. Seriously, $5 million for this guy?
5. Tobias Enstrom (Atlanta Thrashers)
Enstrom's sophomore campaign started out a little rocky, but ended strong, as he posted 21 points and a plus-14 rating in his final 25 games of the season (a 62-point/plus-45 pace). Enstrom got monster special teams minutes - 3:23 per game shorthanded and 3:18 on the power play - and hasn't yet missed a game in his two-year NHL career.
4. Zach Bogosian (Atlanta Thrashers)
Can Zach Bogosian be this high on the list already, just 47 games into his NHL career? Yep. From January on, the rookie had nine goals, ten assists and a plus-14 rating (for the Thrashers, mind you) in 38 games played. Pro rate those numbers and you're looking at a 19-goal/21-assist/plus-30 rookie campaign. He played against the toughest competition of all Atlanta defensemen at five-on-five and had 67 hits and 50 blocked shots in those 47 games... and he just turned nineteen.
3. Joni Pitkanen (Carolina Hurricanes)
Pitkanen led the Division's best defensive team in ice time and posted the second-best plus-minus among the team's blueliners. He had a bit of an up-and-down season in 2008-09 - 21 points and a minus-three rating before the All-Star game and just 12 points but a plus-14 rating from that point on. If he puts it all together, look out.
2. Keith Ballard (Florida Panthers)
Ballard played every game in 2008-09 and posted the best plus-minus on the Florida blueline, while leading the group in hits and blocked shots. And despite modest offensive totals, Ballard was tied for sixth among NHL defensemen in even strength points. Solid, solid rearguard.
1. Mike Green (Washington Capitals)
Biggest no-brainer in the history of earth. Norris finalist, NHL First-Team All-Star, and so on and so forth. Honestly, picking Alex Ovechkin as the top forward in the division yesterday was probably a tougher call. All hail Greenie.
So there you have it - the top ten Southeast Division defensemen. Alright, now tell us where we're wrong.
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But Schultz skates with Mike Green all the time (CI’d).
I was going to ask why not Corvo, then I remembered he was kind of shabby on ES.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
Honestly, lists aren’t supposed to be this hard to put together. I struggled like mad with this post. First, how do you rank “defensemen” like McCabe or Corvo against stay-at-home guys? I guess I went with a combination of gut feel and “who would I want out there in the last minute of a tie game?” though that doesn’t really work because it too heavily favors guys who don’t make mistakes but have little chance of contributing anything offensively.
Then there’s the whole “these guys, after Green, kinda blow” factor – I could swap out the entire back-end of this list for the guys that just missed.
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I actually agree with Jeff Schultz making #9, but the fact that Schultz can make this list is a testament to the weakness of SE’s defensemen.
"My face is my mask."
by Jake Shapiro on Jul 30, 2009 7:48 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Then there’s the whole "these guys, after Green, kinda blow" factor – I could swap out the entire back-end of this list for the guys that just missed.
Nah, it’s pretty solid. The only other guy I would have thought of is Hainsey, but I wasn’t thinking of him as much as I was Corvo. Solid job.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 7:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks.
Hainsey was close, but he was a team-worst -16 last year on a squad that had two D’s in double-digit plusses (playing against tougher competition than Hainsey did) and his offensive numbers were nothing special. Besides, I couldn’t put four Thrashers in the Top 10.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Along the BTN lines, here’s another reason to exclude Corvo. In related news, I wonder if they trot out Brind’Amour for 19 minutes a game again this year.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions
The amazing thing that I learned from this post is that Atlanta is STACKED at D.
3 of their top 4 in the top 10?! LIKE, TOTALLY, OMG, guys.
/snark
by DrinkingPartner on Jul 30, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Seriously though...
Imagine if Atlanta hadn’t been dumb enough to trade away Braydon Coburn for Alexei Zhitnik – they would have had a very solid top 3/4.
While im not a Schultz hater by any means, Im not comfortable with labeling him the second best defensemen on the Caps. All stats aside (im too lazy to go find them), and solely based on my subjective familiarity with the team as a fan, Poti makes me more comfortable when on the ice. You did however say that those left out could easily be swapped with the bottom of the list, so im not sure what im trying to convince you of. I think the fact that Schultz hasnt contibuted anything, or even dressed for most of the last two years of playoffs makes me question how much we missed him (maybe the answer is a lot, I dont know)
What is it about the phrases “all stats aside,” “i’m [sic] too lazy to go find them”) and “subjective familiarity” that stops my eyes from continuing on?
For the record, your use of [sic] was incorrect.
by Murshawursha on Jul 30, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I dont really care if you read the whole thing or not, I was responding to JP. The point is, I dont need stats to tell me that Poti is better than Schultz. I know based on watching a lot of caps games, not looking at the back of a trading card. With players on other teams, whom Im not as familiar with, stats prove more beneficial. Maybe if you HAD read on you wouldnt have needed to waste your time responding, which takes away from you real responsibilities here: Japers Rink Cyber Hall Monitor
by ovechrist on Jul 30, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
The point is, I dont need stats to tell me that Poti is better than Schultz. I know based on watching a lot of caps games, not looking at the back of a trading card.
Yes, but the relevant stats aren’t on the back of trading cards, which is part of the problem.
I know it’s not the crux of your point (and fwiw, I think Poti is better than Schultz too) but the reality is that in the vast majority of situations statistics trump the ‘I know what my eyes tell me’ gut instinct because they’re (1) complete records and (2) unbiased.
The problem with unbiased stats is that they decline to mention Schultz’s awkward-ass skating or lack of physical presence in front of the net (or anywhere else, unfortunately). That’s where “observational stats” come in and, IMO, they can be just as important.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Schultz, but I will defend to the pain the eye-witness accounts. And to most of our eyes, Poti comes across as a much better player, most of the time.
by DrinkingPartner on Jul 30, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
“To the pain? I’m not sure I’m familiar with that one…”
- Prince Humperdink
by war_capitals on Jul 30, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
What is it about the phrases "all stats aside," "i’m [sic] too lazy to go find them") and "subjective familiarity" that stops my eyes from continuing on?
Why is it when your eyes stop continuing on, you decide nevertheless to post about it?
Seriously, there are multiple ways to enjoy and relate to sports. We all know that you prefer stats because you’ve told us over and over again. And that’s fine, please continue contributing to the stats-based comments.
But I’m honestly very tired of hearing how other approaches to the game are deficient. They aren’t. “Idea: Instead of merely asserting, make a case…” was flat-out rude, and so is the quoted comment. The quoted comment is particularly inapplicable because the whole point is that there is no data — Schultz was out due to injury.
On the day that everything in hockey can be perfectly measured in an objective way, then (1) you can go ahead and bust people’s balls for making subjective judgments, and (2) I’m going to quit watching because the human element is what makes it entertaining. In the meantime, please quit hammering everyone for reporting what their eyes tell them.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 30, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 13 recs
There is nothing new or useful about someone posting for the 2,248th time that he thinks Schultz sucks because his eyes tell him so. If someone has something fresh to bring to the conversation, something illuminating, bring it.
Yes: There is plenty of room for observation-based conversation on Schultz and on all other players. However there wasn’t anything in that comment that we haven’t all read before.
OK, so you’ve painted the comment you responded to as someone writing “that he thinks Schultz sucks because his eyes tell him so.” Let’s see if that’s fair.
While im not a Schultz hater by any means
So far, the opposite of Schultz hatred
While im not a Schultz hater by any means, Im not comfortable with labeling him the second best defensemen on the Caps. All stats aside (im too lazy to go find them), and solely based on my subjective familiarity with the team as a fan, Poti makes me more comfortable when on the ice.
Not really a knock on Schultz to say that Poti is a better player right now. And Boudreau feels the same way about Poti, putting him on the ice for more time overall, more PK time, and a lot more PP time. I guess you’d say Poti has a better “comfortability” factor.
You did however say that those left out could easily be swapped with the bottom of the list, so im not sure what im trying to convince you of. I think the fact that Schultz hasnt contibuted anything, or even dressed for most of the last two years of playoffs makes me question how much we missed him (maybe the answer is a lot, I dont know)
A lot of uncertainty here, and not too much Schultz hatred to my eye. Heck, the possibility is even raised that Schultz might have really made a difference in the playoffs. Above all, it raises a question, and I think it’s a fair question to raise. How much does it matter that Schultz has seen very little playoff action? Unfortunately, it’s a question that data cannot answer because there’s no data to go by.
The bottom line is that characterizing this post as “someone posting for the 2,248th time that he thinks Schultz sucks because his eyes tell him so” isn’t well justified at all. I think it’s fair for someone to say that, after watching them play, Poti makes one feel more comfortable when he’s on the ice. (I wholeheartedly agree) And I think the question of how much it matters that Schultz hasn’t played in the playoffs is an interesting one. That’s two fresh and illuminating things that I hadn’t read in this particular way before.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 30, 2009 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
No it’s not interesting. The guy tries to play with broken rib(s) — the very definition of gutsy — and he gets hit for not playing in the playoffs? Please.
Where was he hit for not playing in the playoffs? The point was that we haven’t seen him play much healthy in the playoffs, so it’s tough to evaluate.
brs03 has it exactly right. You’re clearly not even reading the words that are there at this point. You’ve invented a strawman that bears no relation to the original comment.
I’m going to stop now, because we’re just talking about different things. There’s just no point.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 31, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Come on Tyler ---
You’ve made two points repeatedly over months -
1) You like Schultz and thats based on “data”
2) You think any subjective opinions aren’t worth having and really aren’t worth talking about.
Well here’s some data – there’s at least 3 people who post regularly here who think you’re wrong.
There’s also at least 4 who think the way you posted on this thread and this line of thought is rude and the more you try to justify your tone, etc. the more you make yourself sound like a tool.
Can’t we move on to some other line of discussion?
by markbona-capsfan99 on Jul 31, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t really get how Ohlund makes the list but Poti doesn’t (unless you don’t want to try to separate “injured Poti” from “not injured Poti”), and there’s no way Babchuck should be considered better than Poti, Gleason, Corvo probably, or Mez probably. Difficult to compare across teams, injuries, and styles though and he did have an impressive season but still…
Also, Boynton’s out of the division and Babchuck will be as well before the season starts (almost certainly).
Babchuk was CAR’s #5 at ES, behind Seidenberg, Corvo, Pitkanen, Gleason. Yet top 10 in the division? His +/- is bolstered by easier competition and good offense.
He’s a bit of a PP specialist. He wasn’t relied on in a huge role.
Poti, on the other hand, played against tougher competition (toughest on the team, rather than 6th toughest for Babchuck) and played the PK, in front of worse goaltending and on a team that relied more on PP than on ES scoring (not as helpful for +/-).
Gleason had the toughest competition on the Canes and less offense to support his +/-.
Corvo may be a stretch, he had tougher competition but that may not help him.
Mez is tough to say since he was injured. He certainly plays a bigger role on his team but maybe that’s not enough.
But overall I think the biggest issue is that his time as a Cane is over. If Kubina’s eligible, Babcuck probably shouldn’t be.
by brs03 on Jul 30, 2009 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Data rocks.
One of the difficult things about ranking a top 10 D is the impact of a system on individual play. For example: With one notable diving, complaining sod-farmer, CAR’s forwards were more committed to D than were WSH’s. Which helps their D…
“Data Rocks” – because we all know that’s 110% of the basis for every NHL coach and GM’s every decision… ROFLMAO…
Let’s return to the obscure atats of the rebuild years like when Caps down 7-1 after a Semin goal we’d see messages on jumbotron or we’d hear annoucements like how “Score by #28, the fifth goal by Semin during full moons this season – the 23 year old is leading the league in that catagory”…
by markbona-capsfan99 on Jul 31, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I didn’t feel good about the Babchuk inclusion, but his numbers were nice.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Numbers are a tough way to put a D list together just because a guy like Gleason is never going to have the same numbers as a guy like Babchuk although Gleason is a much better player (IMO).
Agreed. But Gleason’s other numbers (BtN and so forth) weren’t as impressive as I’d hoped in order to land him on the list.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I feel like Poti deserves a spot on this list too. He’s steady, he plays a smart game, and he doesn’t take many penalties. If I had to rank Caps defensemen, he’d be second behind Green.
by Murshawursha on Jul 30, 2009 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s funny — is the question how good were they last year or how good do you expect them to be this year. Last year, I’d have put Poti ahead of Schultz. But this year, they’re both a year older, and that favors Schultz. If Bogosian and Enstrom are so high, then I think expectations are the rule and I can see Schultz being expected to outplay Poti this year.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 30, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just as you could make an argument that the list of forwards is among the tops of all the divisions, this list of defensemen brings up the rear of the divisional lists.
by Moonage Daydream on Jul 30, 2009 8:38 AM EDT reply actions
When you have Tampas defense in your division it kind of drags you down. Maybe the worst defense in the league(all 82 different versions of it) in 08-09.
Where would Bouwmeester have fallen?
There’s a ton of things I don’t like about Green’s game for sure, but I guess he’s tough to argue.
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If J-Bo were still in the division, he would have been #2, and there would have been some competition for #1. Admittedly, Green is probably better, but he’s not head and shoulders better than the rest of the division like he is now.
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jul 30, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
There are different considerations is J-Bo is still in FLA, but I still don’t think it’s anywhere close. Green was still 15,000 times more effective than J-Bo has ever been.
by DrinkingPartner on Jul 30, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Tim Gleason and Ron Hainsey were both invited to Team USA’s Olympic camp this summer, Keith Ballard wasn’t. I still wonder what exactly Brian Burke was thinking putting that list together.
Babchuk is the only guy on the list I disagree with. I think Tim Gleason is better than Babchuk, and Tom Poti probably is as well. Other than that I don’t think there’s much to argue with on the list.
Babchuk’s also apparently on the outs in Carolina, so his inclusion is more or less an epic fail. Whatever.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Ward just missed the cut, but didn’t play a ton of minutes and played for a very, very good team last year, which inflated some of his numbers. He’s not a young man, but is still solid. I’d rather have him on the ice in the last minute of a tied game than Babchuk (assuming I’m not on the PP), so he’s right there.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Yeah, I’d have liked to see Ward come to the Caps, to push the kids and provide a veteran presence. Of course, I’d prefer to see an even better defenseman come to the Caps. Let’s see what the trade winds blow.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 30, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s a tangent, but I was very surprised when Ballard’s name was not on the invitee list for the US camp.
Agree that Babchuk shouldn’t be on the list, too hot and cold, including being a healthy scratch in the playoff series against NJ. As noted, a very difficult list to put together.
For all the jokes about the TB defense, etc., I will be very interested to see how a healthy Paul Ranger plays this season. He’s battled injuries plus the mess that was the TB blueline the last couple of seasons, but is a good, young dman, IMO.
I had thought about Ranger, too, but too many injuries and not enough of a proven commodity before them. But he could easily be in that “just missed” group.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
So – after Mike Green it is tough and the point about the SE Division d-men now that J-Bo is in Calgary is valid.
The thing about the overstatement of Green’s defensive weaknesses is apparent after you look at his /- (24 rating) and subtract his powerplay goals from his 31 goals scored is also totally valid.
Finally, JP isn’t a homer for putting Jeff “Sarge” Schultz at #9 on the list, he’s just misguided – Tom Poti should have been there for two reasons: 1) his value and importance to the Caps as well as his average TOI and special teams play and the Caps record when he’s not in the line-up. and maybe even more importantly 2) Because then we’d really see the haters come up – the Ranger fans who really, really “dislike” Poti…and those would be comments that are great fun to read.
by markbona-capsfan99 on Jul 30, 2009 8:53 AM EDT reply actions
I agree on Poti being better than Schultz, but I put 55 on the list to cheese off the haters.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Also considering Ovechkin was +8 and Backstrom +16, Green must’ve been good for +24.
by red army line on Jul 30, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Last time we checked, the point of hockey was to score more goals than your opponent does, and Sarge has the best plus-minus of any defenseman in the division since he entered the League in 2006-07.
Wow, even I didn’t know that.
Flagged for not covering your bases.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Apropos of nothing, I’m finding it amusing that Barbra Streisand and Anton Babchuk share a nickname.
bleeding heart?
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Would ‘Mrs. James Brolin’ have been accepted?
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Question
I can absolutely understand that many here feel that Schultz is unfairly derided by Caps fans in spite of his statistical success. But do any of you REALLY think that Jeff Schultz is a top 10 guy in the division? REALLY?
Salary aside, would any of you really rather have Jeff Schultz than Tim Gleason? Or even Tom Poti, who the Caps already have (a higher price point, but still)?
Schultz’s inclusion here strikes me as simply trying to be uber-contrary in the interests of stoking the flames of an Internet flame war (something that I wholeheartedly support, by the way – keep up the good work!).
Yes, Schultz’s inclusion was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but he’s not far from the 9th best D in the division.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I don’t like Tom Poti. But I don’t think I can be convinced that Jeff Schultz is better than Tom Poti right now. I don’t even think you can convince me Schultz is better than Erskine or Jurcina, right now. You certainly couldn’t convince the Capitals when they were offering him 1 year for 700K-ish.
Russian Machine Never Breaks
At Schultz’s age/years-in-the-league, salary is not a product of quality, it’s a product of the CBA.
And wasn’t Mike Green in the same draft year? I don’t see any correlation at all. They Caps are paying Schultz 700k because there is very little market for him.
Russian Machine Never Breaks
Which has nothing to do with his ability. There’s very little market for stay at homes that aren’t vets.
Green and Backstrom have leverage because of their offensive production. Schultz doesn’t have that leverage. He’s very possibly worth more to the team right now than Jurcina or Morrisonn, but no arbitration rights = not going to get paid like it.
In an economy where everyone appears to be bracing for the cap drop or going for broke this year, the Caps are paying Schultz 700k because a) they have his rights and b) have the option of offering a QO.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
And Schultz is taking it because he has no other viable offers. Which should paint a pretty clear picture about the league wide perception of his ability. You can talk about RFA, no arb all day, if he was worth it, there are teams that will submit an offer sheet, even moreso when it’s in the 1-2M range rather than something like Green/Kessel did/will get.
Russian Machine Never Breaks
No there aren’t. Why would anyone make an offer that the Caps would clearly match, for a guy that’s 2nd pairing with no offense?
The caveat from all this “worth” stuff: you can say Schultz is worth what he’s getting, but then you have to contend that guys like Mo, Juice, or any arb. eligible S@H types (without offense) are getting overpaid in arbitration due to inflated comparables or whatever.
Or you can go the other way and say that the arbitration values are the “worth” values and that guys without those rights are underpaid.
Offer sheets aren’t a viable option in all but the most extreme cases, especially not when the signing value would be so low anyways, the team would match easily, it’s not worth the trouble. Nobody’s going to bother giving Schultz an offer sheet even if he’s worth more than his QO, not without some offense to pique their interests.
I guess I missed the memo that said the Caps would ‘clearly’ match any offer made to Jeff Schultz.
Russian Machine Never Breaks
That’s not what he said. He said that no one’s going to make an offer the Capitals are going to match, i.e. it’d only make sense to make an offer the Capitals weren’t going to match.
although there are benefits to having the caps pay more for schultz than they otherwise would have. at one point, didn’t GMGM talk openly about his unwillingness to make offers to RFAs? that he would say it so openly bothered me.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 30, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
although there are benefits to having the caps pay more for schultz than they otherwise would have.
Do you mean from the Capitals standpoint or from a competitor’s standpoint?
from the other team’s standpoint. why not make an offer for mike green that you think is fair price but above washington’s offer sheet…since GMGM had made it clear that the team would match anything, you’re forcing the caps to go over their budget.
so maybe you make an offer that you expect the caps to match, knowing you’d be happy to have the player even if the caps don’t match. i don’t see why an RFA offer sheet has to be an astronomical overpayment for it to be worthwhile to the offering club.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 30, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
my orginal comment was kind of two intersecting thoughts colliding.
1) i don’t see why RFA offer sheets from other teams should have to be unmatchable by the caps for them to make sense. i.e. i think we all consider mike green’s contract to be something of a steal, and if the atlanta thrashers had valued him as a perennial all-star (say $0.75M more per season than the caps were offering), then why not make that offer if i’m the thrashers GM? best-case scenario: i get green for a value i think is fair. worst-case (and more likely) scenario: the caps go over budget to accomodate/match the thrashers’ offer. in this way, RFA contracts should be close to market value, since outside teams basically are paying what they think is fair + a draft pick or two.
2) i think there is also a “code” among GMs at play here…exemplified by GMGM…that “we won’t sign your guys if you don’t sign our guys.” if so, GMs would be able to keep RFA contracts artificially low.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 30, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
You should go check out Dean Lombardi’s comments on the topic. I can’t find the link now but it’s worth it if you can find it. Love the candor.
RFA contracts should be close to market value, since outside teams basically are paying what they think is fair + a draft pick or two.
The “plus a pick or two” means they are overpaying; that’s why they won’t do it. A team may have been willing to pay Mike Green 6 mill per, but would they be willing to pay him 6 mill per and give up 3 first round draft picks? Total compensation is the key, not just salary. The NFL used to have ridiculous compensation rules to keep players from moving and it was pretty successful.
by Rob Parker on Jul 30, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
say we switch this conversation to schultz…so the ~1M to 1.25M range, which only equals the addition of one 3rd-round pick. if a team that needs a stay at home Dman decides schultz is worth $1.25M to them (possible, since that’s where we valued erskine), why not send over an offer sheet for $1.1M and force the caps to match it?
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 30, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Certainly makes more sense in that hypothetical but the difference is a matter of degree, not principle. The compensation going the other way is a factor the same as the dollar figure. Teams will be willing to give up more for Green than Schultz so the same thought process still applies: “Do we want to sign X player at the high end of what he’s worth, and give away picks.” The team that only has to pay the dollars is at a significant advantage over the team giving up picks.
i’m with you. and i understand the basic elements at play that prevent teams from making offers. i still don’t understand why it’s absolutely necessary to make an offer that the original team would never match, since you’re handicapping them presumably at a value that you are willing to accept as the offering team. DMG’s original statement was that “no one’s going to make an offer the Capitals are going to match,” RFA offer sheets shouldn’t be bad for business in every case, and having another team match your offer could still be a competitive advantage.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 30, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that probably gets more into the unwritten rules between GMs. It’s one thing to try to sign a guy away. It’s another thing to sign a guy to an offer sheet that you know will be matched just to drive up the price. That’s poor form and not a good idea when you’re going to have to deal with that guy at some point for a trade, league vote, etc. I think GMs get furious about offer sheets in large part because it inflates the cost of keeping their own players, moreso than the risk of losing them for draft pick compensation.
The better course of action is to just call up and offer to trade the pick (or even a lower one) for his rights.
i agree! you just put the two ideas together better than i could.
but the ultimate conclusion from this is that RFA offers (schultz as an example) are even further from market value than just the leverage created by compensatory draft picks. this doesn’t mean backstrom can be signed for pennies on the dollar, but it does mean that teams are able low-ball somewhat.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 30, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re going to measure an RFA’s worth by what offers other teams tossed to him? Good luck with that.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Only 5 players have been signed to RFA offer sheets since the current CBA was entered and only one was not matched (Penner’s). At least two of the five are now overpaid as a result (Penner and Vanek – go Edmonton!).
There was a good article about this recently by Fluto Shinzawa of boston.com: http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/articles/2009/07/26/thanks_to_cap_offer_sheet_becoming_paper_tiger/?page=full
I think it’s impossible not to acknowledge that market activity around RFAs cannot be viewed as a reliable indicator of market value. That said, it’s obvious that Schultz took his QO because he didn’t expect to get a big offer sheet. He’s a young guy that doesn’t put up offensive numbers. Teams don’t pay out for those kinds of guys – they wait for their teams to develop them fully first.
I think it’s impossible not to acknowledge that market activity around RFAs cannot be viewed as a reliable indicator of market value.
Is that a a triple negative? Epic.
But yeah, the GMs seem to have a gentlemen’s agreement to keep their paws off of eachother’s RFAs… Remember the snipefest between Burke and Lowe after the Penner incident?
And every team needs the cheap RFAs in the salary cap era. I mean, we don’t have the space to pay Schultz any more than what he’s getting now.
by Murshawursha on Jul 30, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
So we let the guys play out their entry-levels and let them walk as RFAs? I feel like roster turnover would increase exponentially.
by Murshawursha on Jul 30, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Not everyone…keep the best and move on, or sign the rest to cheap QOs.
by red army line on Jul 30, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean, we don’t have the space to pay Schultz any more than what he’s getting now.
Long-term I might disagree with you, but when it comes to multi-year re-ups, he’s admittedly lower on the priority list.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I’m not thinking too much past this season at this point… Who knows what the cap’ll look like next year?
by Murshawursha on Jul 30, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The Shadow?
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Another problem with offer sheets is that it’s not just the money, it’s the compensation. In order for a team to make an offer the Caps wouldn’t match they’d have to probably overpay for Schultz and be willing to give up a package of draft picks. He won’t draw a first round pick but he would draw a 2 or 3 and so Schultz at 1 million is really Schultz at 1 million plus essentially trading away picks.
And Schultz is taking it because he has no other viable offers. Which should paint a pretty clear picture about the league wide perception of his ability.
If we’re going to extend that logic the way you extended Tyler’s when talking about Backstrom’s expiring contract it would mean that people sign QOs because they have no viable options which would means that post-lockout only five players who reached restricted free agency have been NHL caliber players, and that’s simply not true.
Salary <> skill, or even the amount a team values something. The Caps don’t have to pay Schultz more than 700K, so they won’t. If there were any other bidders the Caps would have to pay more than 700K and would. I own hockey skates. I would have paid $350 for the skates (i.e. I value the skates at $350) but the price tag said $275. I paid $275.
by Rob Parker on Jul 30, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Whoops, sorry for restating above you.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. Theoretically the team could go, ‘hey buddy, we know we only have to pay you 700k to keep you here but we like you so darn much here’s 1.2 million’, just like you could have insisted on paying $350 for your skates, but why would they/you? That’s just poor cap management.
I know the counterargument being made is that the Capitals paid Schultz the minimum because he wasn’t going to get a QO anywhere else but the problem with that is that it assumes the restricted free agent market is open and competitive, which it’s clearly not (not to mention the additional compensation issues you brought up before).
Wow…pretty weak group. Had never really thought about this too much until this post, but once you get past the top 3, I doubt anyone makes any other division top 10.
Which is why you should make the goalies a collaborative effort. I wouldn’t wish that punishment on just one person.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Can you have a top 5-10 group without defining the top five first? Seems like that would be where the SE goalies fit in.
I’d think anything after the top 3 or 4 is shaky and potential-based guesswork, but I’m not writing the article. Don’t want to get into that discussion until tomorrow, of course. :)
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d say both of Florida’s goalies are better than anyone in Tampa. The same is probably true about both of Washington’s.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 30, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Hasn’t Smith been a backup most of his career, or did he start somewhere before he played in Dallas?
by Murshawursha on Jul 30, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought Turco was injured and Smith started for part of a season.
by red army line on Jul 30, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough… I still think I’d take Theo over him… He’s more of a proven commodity at this point.
Though it could be argued his ‘proven commodity’ is inconsistency.
by Murshawursha on Jul 30, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
All the talent in the world, but I don’t trust him given his injury history. Theo at least can get you through an entire season. To me, Mike Smith is Semyon Varlamov without last year’s playoff run.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 30, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Clemmensen’s as good as his time in NJ suggests (he got hot, like Conklin in PIT, but I don’t think that can be equal to the greatness it might look like) and I don’t see how he surpasses Smith, much less Nitty (both of them can far surpass Clemmer when they get hot I’d say).
I think it’s more that I don’t expect to see Clemmensen have the same performance outside of NJ and their system.
by DrinkingPartner on Jul 30, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
So to that point and the one you made in the opening, are the stats of SE forwards (IE Ovie) inflated because of the low quality of the defenseless men in the division?
by Direction 87 on Jul 30, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe a little, but if you look at the scoring rates of the bigger guns, they’re equal opportunity studs – they’re not just getting fat on their division foes.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I thought is was pretty well debunked that Ovie “feasted” on the “weak SE teams” to inflate his stats? Not just Ovie scores against everyone, but more like Ovie actually scores more PPG against the Atlantic and NE than he does against his own division. Or am I delusional?
No, I think you’re right (it somewhat applies to the Caps as well).
The last big analysis I recall (from Mirtle most likely) showed that the only “big gun” that really feasted on the SE was Lecavalier, but that’s probably a season or two old.
Yup. I think L vs SE = L vs ATL + L vs NE
by red army line on Jul 30, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Ovechkin last year:
Vs. SED – 24 games, 42 points
Vs. everyone else – 55 games, 68 points
So yeah, he scored at a better clip within the Division.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Definitely true last year. I wonder what the numbers are like for 07-08, but I’d guess they’re similar. I was wondering how much of this was due to Tampa, so I looked up how he did against each team. With 6 games vs. each, Ovie scored:
13 points against TB
11 points against CAR
9 points against FLA
9 points against ATL
If my math is right, he had 1.75 points per vs. the SE division, 1.5 points per vs. non-TB/CAR division opponents, and 1.23 points per overall.
thank you both for finding those stats. I guess I’d be curious, too, to see what the numbers are comparing playoff vs. non-playoff teams.
Here’s Ovie vs. playoff teams, regular season only:
In the East, 42 points in 30 games overall, 1.4 PPG (fattening up on NJ and CAR)
In the West, 11 points in 9 games overall, 1.22 PPG (4 points in 1 game vs. ANA, 0 points in 2 games vs. Steve Mason)
So, overall for playoff teams is 53 points in 39 games, or 1.36 PPG.
By process of subtraction, that should mean he had 57 points in 40 games vs. non-playoff teams, or 1.425 PPG. Seems about right to me.
To reply to myself once more, this means that Ovie’s points per game against playoff teams in the east is actually higher than his overall points per game average. But take NJ or Carolina out of the picture, whom he torched, and that would likely not be the case.
But 1.5 points-per game in the playoffs (21 in 14).
by red army line on Jul 30, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Bonus stats for the regular season, but something tells me JP or DMG have already done a post like this…
Ovie vs. the Atlantic Division: 1.55 PPG (same as non-TB SE division opponents)
NJ: 8 points in 4 games
PIT: 6 points in 4 games
PHI: 4 points in 4 games
NYR: 5 points in 4 games
NYI: 8 points in 4 games
Ovie vs. the Northeast Division: 1.16 PPG
BOS: 4 points in 4 games
MTL: 4 points in 4 games
BUF: 4 points in 3 games
OTT: 5 points in 4 games
TOR: 4 points in 3 games
Ovie vs. the Western Conference: 0.94 PPG
16 points in 17 games
I seem to remember that in previous years, he was more balanced.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
What’s telling is that none of the top 10 were in Tampa last year. You have to figure that there would be about 2 from each team, but the Bolts had 0. The only Bolt up there now is a free agent import from Vancouver. If Ohlund is your top defenseman, there is an issue there.
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jul 30, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Mez and Ranger both could have warranted a spot if they had been healthy all season. No way Ohlund is better than either of them when they’re healthy.
No way Ohlund is better than either of them when they’re healthy.
Just curious, but based on what? Certainly not upon these stats.
Ranger and Mezaros, each 23, are young and still learning. And yes, they played in front of a weak crew between the pipes and along the blueline, while Ohlund had Luongo and better partners, but it’s hard to support that Ohlund plays second fiddle to either of those guys (or anyone not named Hedman) in TB this season, or next, or the next one after that.
from the house that Red Jesus built
I don’t think Ohlund’s got anything left to play in a top-3 role, and I think either of Ranger or Mez are going to be firmly in that role now.
Look at last season even. Their goals against numbers were close, despite Ohlund being on a significantly better team. Competition levels were pretty close. Ohlund’s +/- relative to team was lower, if that means anything. The biggest indicator I think, though, is the PIMs. Ohlund takes way, way too many especially when you figure he wasn’t facing the toughest competition. Mez wasn’t close prorating his numbers, Ranger was close but still not as bad. All of this while on a vastly superior team in Vancouver.
For Ohlund his game is on the decline, and its happening pretty quickly. I don’t see how he could all of the sudden improve enough to surpass Mez or Ranger (although maybe it’s not a big gap for Ranger) when both of them should be reasonably expected to improve.
OK, I’ll buy the PIM’s issue (does he fight or are they all minors?). But he is definitely a top 4 guy (top pair on a reworked TB blueline) and a lock to make Sweden’s Olympic team. And at 33 this fall, I’m not sure about how steep a decline is evident—when healthy, he is a minutes eater in all three phases of the game.
from the house that Red Jesus built
I seriously doubt he’s top pair even on TB, unless they try to shoehorn Hedman in there right away and put him there to babysit. He’s slowed down significantly (hence the PIMs).
I think he’s a fine #4 for now, although TB will grow to regret that contract before too long.
I guess we’ll see soon enough. Hedman is going to get looks with everyone to see where he fits best, and so will Ohlund—it’s far from certain they will skate significant minutes together, but TB will be improved defensively, with no doubt.
from the house that Red Jesus built
I wouldn’t say that Öhlund is a lock for the national team. He has a good shot to make it home to Vancover again but the competition is pretty steep. He has never been that successful playing for Sweden anyhow, taken bad penalty’s at crucial times in games.
Can you name 5 Swedes after Nick Lidstrom who make it instead of him?
Me neither.
from the house that Red Jesus built
by bigonetimer on Jul 30, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Enstrom, Oduya and Ericsson instead of Ohlund? I don’t think so.
from the house that Red Jesus built
by bigonetimer on Jul 31, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Johnsson, Edler, Stralman (if for no other reason he has the only R shot), Kronwall, and…Hedman, for the experience. Havelid perhaps?
from the house that Red Jesus built
by bigonetimer on Jul 31, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
The fact is there will probably be at least one guy that you’ve never heard of because he still plays for Frolunda (etc.). The SEL is not the NHL, but there are a bunch of very good players that play over there.
And because the Swedish olympic team will institute a good, solid system that everyone buys into, they’re my favorite to win every time. In olympic hockey, Teamwork > Talent.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 31, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions
swedes are great. there was a swedish guy on top chef masters a few weeks ago, and i kept thinking: he is approaching this challenge exactly like lidstrom, bjorn borg, stefan edberg would have approached it…cool, precise, methodical.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 31, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
After Kenny Jönssons retirement I can’t see any SEL dman making the squad. Looking at forwards: It’s along shot but maybe Magnus Svensson Pääjärvi or Mattias Tedenby with killer start to the season will make it. On second thought that would probably requirer lots of injuries and a small miracle.
Is it “Ar du Svensk?” or “Du ar Svensk?” One is an accusation, the other is a question right? I can never remember.
Formidable
NHL.com takes a look at Team Sweden:
The Swedish Ice Hockey Association will amass the initial roster candidates on Thursday and Friday at a press conference at a golf club in the city of Molndal, a suburb of Gothenburg.
All 34 players nominated have NHL ties and range from All-Stars (Nicklas Lidstrom, Henrik Lundqvist) to prospects (Carl Gunnarsson, Tom Wandell). Conveniently, the candidates are all in Sweden for the press conference and Swedish officials can collect paperwork and signatures and provide anti-doping information from the Swedish Olympic Committee that marks the beginning of their consideration. Notable names missing from the list are Daniel and Henrik Sedin, Nicklas Backstrom, Johan Franzen, Patrik Berglund, and Mikael Samuelsson, suggesting they are not currently living or vacationing in their homeland.
Coach Bengt-Ake Gustafsson told the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet, “All could not be there, simply.” Explaining the inclusion of several longshots such as Gunnarsson (Toronto), Wandell (Dallas) and goaltending prospects Daniel Larsson (Detroit) and Jhonas Enroth (Buffalo), Gustafsson said, “There is no upper limit. We can nominate how many we want. Sometime in September, we shall submit the entire list.”
The final 23-man roster does not have to be submitted to the International Ice Hockey Federation until Dec. 31. Currently, there is no plan for the Swedes to hold an on-ice training camp.
Backstrom and the Sedin twins are no-brainers to play in Vancouver. They were the top three Swedish born and trained scorers in the NHL last season and totaled 75 goals and 177 assists.
The 34 players include 10 from the 2006 gold medal-winning squad at the Torino Games — Daniel Alfredsson, P.J. Axelsson, Tomas Holmstrom, Niklas Kronwall, Lidstrom, Lundqvist, Fredrik Modin, Mattias Ohlund, Samuel Pahlsson and Henrik Zetterberg.
Four of the players — Kronwall, Lidstrom, Modin and Zetterberg — are members of the 22-man Triple Gold Club, winners of the Stanley Cup, the IIHF World Championship and Olympic gold. Samuelsson is also an active member.
IS PAЯTY NOW
At work, no time to click links. Gustafsson and Johansson on there?
by Gould Old Days on Jul 31, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Biggest no-brainer in the history of earth. Norris finalist, NHL First-Team All-Star, and so on and so forth. Honestly, picking Alex Ovechkin as the top forward in the division yesterday was probably a tougher call. All hail Greenie.
Thanks for making me laugh on quite the shitty day (although no one has stolen my stapler yet, so the building is not a fire today!) Interesting list.
And if I may dive into the apparently epic Schultz vs. Poti debate, and I get why you put Sarge on there, but Poti’s got to get some style points for his impression of a frog having seizures on the ice during the 5-on-3 during game 6 against the Pens.
your powers to beat me at linking CI posts are almost as awesome as your powers to change sex on the interwebs :)
There’s another one, this one about Potsy. Apparently he and his wife are expecting their third little one soon.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
When I found out Washington was interested, right away I told my agent, ’Let’s work as hard as we can to get something done there. That’s where I want to be.
I love reading that.
by Murshawursha on Jul 30, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
1 year-olds go to school?
to go house hunting and enroll two of their four children (ages 7,5,4 and 1) in school.
by red army line on Jul 30, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Only thing I wonder about is where you enroll them if you haven’t decided where you’re living yet. (Yes, I understand private school is an option, but that requires an application process.)
My Top 10...
I pretty much have the same players with one exception. The order is similar but some subtle differences. Needless to say, the 30 regular D-men in the Southeast are not worldbeaters:
1) Mike Green – Norris finalist gets the nod
2) Zach Bogosian – This kid is the real deal, and he is going to get better.
3) Keith Ballard – Managed to be +14 for a not-so-good Florida team. Will get more deserved attention with J-Bo out of the picture
4) Joni Pitkanen – Definitely a quality player on a deep blue line
5) Bryan McCabe – Great shot from the point
6) Matthias Ohlund – A quality player, will add some stability to Tampa’s backline, although they’re still going to be awful
7) Pavel Kubina – Dunno if he can keep it up at his age, but was effective last year
8) Tobias Enstrom – Solid player, if you can get a double figure positive playing for Atlanta, you’ve accomplished something
9) Karl Alzner – Anyone who can improve Milan Jurcina by partnering with him has got to be good.
10) Anton Babchuk – Had a nice breakout year last year… we’ll see if he can do it again. I wouldn’t bet against him.
Let's go Caps!
Can you include a guy that looked average in a large portion of the 30 NHL games he’s played? I think that Alzner can make it onto this list, but I don’t think he can be included yet.
I also would have Enstrom up higher for the same reason that you have Bogosian at #2. He’s a baby, and he’s very good.
Alzner was better overall than his last 5 games in a Caps’ sweater. And he did markedly improve Jurcina when they were matched up. But I agree, I wouldn’t have included him, yet. I, personally, would have included Poti.
by DrinkingPartner on Jul 30, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, I think Alzner’s a tough sell at a top ten defenseman at this point given that the Capitals, in their last week of the season, thought he was no better than eighth in their organization.
Part of the reason Alzner can be up there is because this division has a rather sorry lot of defensemen. After Green and Bogosian, I’d be looking for young d-men who can improve, and few defensmen in this division have as much upside as Alzner.
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jul 30, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
30 games is enough to show me what he can do, and what he needs to work on. Alzner will be on the roster next season and will be logging 20-22 minutes a night. He’s gonna be the player you don’t notice at all during the game, but when you look at the box score, it’ll show him with 21:43 in ice time and +2.
And anyone who can make Juice look like a top 4 defender… well, that makes an impression.
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jul 30, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I still think Juice has top-4 potential… He’s certainly played like it at times. I’m just not sure what it would take to get him to stay at that level.
Still, if we keep him and he comes out next year playing like he played in the playoffs… I’ll be a happy camper. Oh, and he needs to shoot more.
by Murshawursha on Jul 30, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Personally, I wouldn’t take Juice over Green, Poti, Schultz, or Morrisonn. Pothier gets the slightest edge, and Erskine I think offers about the same as Juice. Top-4? Absolutely not.
And we’ll have to wait and see what comes from Training Camp: Alzner? Carlson?
Hell, I think Juice is lucky if he’s still a Cap come October 1.
by DrinkingPartner on Jul 30, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s gonna be the player you don’t notice at all during the game, but when you look at the box score, it’ll show him with 21:43 in ice time and +2.
He’s gonna out-Schultz Schultz?
But Alzner won’t get skewered for not hitting because he’s only 6’2". I do anticipate some Alzner hating because of the lack of flash in his game, though.
Alzner for Norris?
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I seem to remember Alzner would lay a check if the opportunity arose… Not a particularly heavy one, and he wouldn’t go after them, but he’d take it if it was there.
Schultz used to look like he would actively avoid physical contact… He’s since gotten better about that.
by Murshawursha on Jul 30, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t have a problem with what you are saying, though I’m not sure he is going to be a 20-22 minute guy until Feb at the earliest.
What I do question you on is calling him a top 10 guy already. He’s a top 10 in promise guy, but he’s got to have the box score that says 21:43 +2 before you can add him to the list.
And Carlson is better than Alzner
{ducks}
by Gould Old Days on Jul 30, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t that kind of a Crosby/Ovechkin question? Their respective styles are WAY too different.
by DrinkingPartner on Jul 30, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Their styles are different. And Ovechkin is better than Crosby. {grin}
by Gould Old Days on Jul 30, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Ted has a take
Just read this article on Japers’ Rink. The Caps have two D men on the list. I tend to agree with this listing. What do you think? Also, check out the top forwards list too. It is an interesting analysis. Debate away but be nice and be thoughtful in responses.
Have a skate day!
Japer’s Legitimacy with hockey insiders… check! (as if there were any doubt in the first place)
by war_capitals on Jul 30, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Is anyone else surprised that Jurcina’s results haven’t come out, yet?
by DrinkingPartner on Jul 30, 2009 3:24 PM EDT reply actions
Only in that I expected his agent to tweet it by now [rimshot].
by brs03 on Jul 30, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Damn you for making me look.
For everyone asking, no word yet on the Jurcina arbitration result. It should be coming down soon.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Did he hire Jeff Schultz’s agent or something?
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
I really don’t post on this site often, but I read every day and I’m tired of your shit TylerG. You trash people all day for not posting stats then throw in an unnecessary comment like this for someone that may not have seen that already and was posting that in the comments of something unrelated, you’ve started making me enjoy the comments section much less.
by i12swim on Jul 30, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wellwood decision in: “It is a one-year deal worth $1.2 million, a slight raise from the $1 million Wellwood earned with the Canucks last season.”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
That barely covers the poutine budget.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 30, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Much like the movie Brüno, this picture must be filed under “Things You Cannot Un-See”.
But I can un-rec it.
Ye gods.
Have a skate day!
Why would you un-Rec a mountain of delicious like that?
by DrinkingPartner on Jul 30, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, I won’t un-rec because I found out I actually can’t, which frankly takes all the fun out of it.
But, srsly. That’s a mountain of something, to be sure. My arteries are cringeing as I type.
Have a skate day!
Sure, it’s death on a plate. Tasty, tasty death. I am glad I don’t know of any local poutine purveyors.
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Florida
|
50 | 24 | 15 | 11 | 59 |
|
Washington
|
51 | 27 | 20 | 4 | 58 |
|
Winnipeg
|
53 | 24 | 23 | 6 | 54 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
50 | 22 | 23 | 5 | 49 |
|
Carolina
|
53 | 19 | 25 | 9 | 47 |
(updated 2.4.2012 at 6:07 PM EST)
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