The Southeast Division's Top Ten Forwards
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 1:00 PM EDT
162 comments
Earlier this week we took a somewhat broad look at the how this summer's transactions might impact the pecking order in the Southeast Division. Today we're sticking in the Southeast, although we're going to be looking at players; specifically the division's top ten forwards.
10. Steven Stamkos (Center, Tampa Bay Lightning)
Admittedly Stamkos' 2008-09 numbers weren't all that impressive, and the 2008 first overall draft pick struggled at times. But there's no denying Stamkos' all around offensive talent and although his numbers last season weren't quite as good, Stamkos edges out Atlanta's Bryan Little for tenth on our list - just as he should edge out Little in terms of production in 2009-10.
9. Nathan Horton (Center, Florida Panthers)
It was somewhat of a down year for Florida's Horton, partially due to injury. But he's still the 6'2'', 229 pound force who's averaged 29 goals per 82 games since the lockout, despite playing on mediocre and defensively-oriented Panthers teams.
8. David Booth (Right Wing, Florida Panthers)
Watching Booth play for the Panthers is endlessly frustrating in the sense that you can't help but wonder what someone with his speed, size, and tenacity could do on a team that lets its players play offense doesn't have quite as conservative a style of play. Although he's become a fan- and media-favorite Booth still flies somewhat under the radar by virtue of the fact that he plays in south Florida. If you haven't noticed him before, flip on a Panthers game next season and keep an eye on number ten. Odds are you won't be disappointed.
7. Martin St. Louis (Right Wing, Tampa Bay Lightning)
St. Louis might not be the player he was when he won the MVP in 2004 or when he notched 104 points in 2006-07, but his combination of speed and skill still creates havoc for opponents.
6. Alexander Semin (Left Wing/Right Wing, Washington Capitals)
The fact that Semin's sixth on this list probably says more about the quality of depth among forwards in the Southeast than it does about Washington's "other" Alex. There's no denying his talent, his production is starting to catch up, and in 2008-09, Semin proved he's a valuable penalty killer as well. Yet questions about his durability and discipline still exist.
5. Eric Staal (Center, Carolina Hurricanes)
We tend to think Staal isn't quite as good as he gets credit for - but we also recognize that the only center who's scored more goals than Staal over the last two seasons is Evgeni Malkin. Staal's numbers might be even more impressive with another elite offensive talent to work with.
4. Nicklas Backstrom (Center, Washington Capitals)
Too often dismissed as the product of being fortunate enough to play with Ovechkin, Backstrom, the youngest of the league's top ten scorers, is a great player in his own right. The second-year center can skate, pass, shoot, and play defense; the only thing missing is faceoff acumen.
3. Vincent Lecavalier (Center, Tampa Bay Lightning)
No matter how you look at it, Lecavalier is a true franchise player, able to produce on the ice, lead by example, and serve as an ambassador to the community. He had a down year in 2008, partially due to chronic injuries, but that doesn't diminish his talent or what he's already accomplished.
2. Ilya Kovalchuk (Left Wing, Atlanta Thrashers)
You can easily make the case Kovlachuk is the single player who deserves more than the hand he's been dealt in the NHL (and indeed that case was made last summer). Still only 25, Kovalchuk's individual achievements - including 297 goals, 557 points, and two fifty-goal seasons - are in direct contrast to what he's had to handle from an Atlanta organization that's provided the Thrashers with inept personnel management, poor decisions, an ownership squabble, a mere four playoff games, and some of the ugliest uniforms known to mankind. It boggles the mind to think what Kovalchuk might be capable of on a good team and although Alex Ovechkin is clearly the best forward in this division, the gap isn't as big as a lot of people think it is.
1. Alex Ovechkin (Left Wing, Washington Capitals)
He's won back-to-back MVPs and is both the best and most exciting player in the world. This one's a no-brainer.
While Ovechkin's pretty much a lock at number one, the rest of the list has some pretty significant room for debate. Is Vinny better than Kovy? Does Stamkos deserve top ten consideration yet? Does Semin's incredible talent offset his weaknesses enough that he ought to be ranked higher?
In short, who would you put among the Southeast's elite forwards?
1 recs |
162 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
Mike Green didn’t make the list?
I jest. I jest.
by Laich on Jul 29, 2009 1:08 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Damn, I knew I forgot something!
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know if he’d crack the top 10, but Laich is up there as well.
"My face is my mask."
by jakeshapiro on Jul 29, 2009 1:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not in my opinion – I think he’s basically a third liner who can produce on the powerplay and pretty clearly behind Brind’Amour, Little, Kozlov, Knuble, Weiss, and Antropov.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do not accept all of those players as “pretty clearly” ahead of Laich.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, perhaps ‘pretty clearly’ was a bit strong on some of them – but I still think there are several guys who warrant more top ten (or top fifteen, as the case may be) discussion than Laich.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough, though I think Laich as a Top 15 F in the division is not a terribly tough case to make.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I look at this list and I see pure skill players, which isn’t really Laich’s “thing” (note: he’s not far off from it, and has definitely shown he’s got some himself).
I think if you take into account all the durability, leadership, shot blocking/PK work, ability to adjust to situations, etc, he is definitely a top 10.
by Laich on Jul 29, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who do you take out of the top ten to get him there?
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tough call, because I don’t know Horton/Booth well, nor what they bring to the table. What I do know is Stamkos had an abysmal first half of the season. How much you judge him based on that is debatable.
by Laich on Jul 29, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think its too early to put Stamkos at #10 at this point. He’s got great potential, which he didn’t live up to last year unfortunately for TB, but I think he needs to perform before he can make this yet. Granted I don’t have a better suggestion readily available…
And Kovalchuk really is amazing, its too bad he’s on Atlanta.
by DarkHorseCards on Jul 29, 2009 1:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Stamkos had 17 goals and 27 points in his last 32 games. That’s enough for me to put him in the Top 10.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a bad finish sure, but that also means 6 goals and 19 points in his first 47 games
by DarkHorseCards on Jul 30, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Melrose really did a number on him. Once they started giving him the coaching he needed his improvement was dramatic (with a little lag time).
by brs03 on Jul 30, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know that it’s really fair to blame Melrose. We don’t know what was going on. It’s just as possible that he really wasn’t ready for the NHL when he was brought up (as Melrose claimed), he wouldn’t be the first 18 year old that wasn’t fully prepared for the NHL when the TBL brought him up after drafting him No. 1 overall.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 30, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When I first looked at that entry, I thought the same thing… But then, I’m not sure who I’d put there over him, and his numbers look pretty solid. ’Specially considering he played in the three-ring circus formally known as Tampa Bay.
by Murshawursha on Jul 29, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think at this point Little deserves to be ahead of him. It could change pretty quickly of course.
by brs03 on Jul 29, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Flash: “Usually played a top 6 role and was a fixture on the PP and PK on the second best team in the EC. Wields talent deserving of the talent ‘the Alex Ovechkin of the AHL.’” But in all honesty, I wouldn’t swap anyone on this list, I might change the order a little (drop Staal, raise Semin).
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 1:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
D’oh.
Wields talent deserving of the talent moniker ‘the Alex Ovechkin of the AHL.’
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dear God. Bad day.
Wields talent deserving of thetalentmoniker ‘the Alex Ovechkin of the AHL.’
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes to flipping Vinny and Kovy I think because of the PK time Vinny sees (even if that team’s PK is bad), part of me wants to put Staal ahead of Backstrom so as to not look like much of a homer.
But overall I’m fine with those 10.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 29, 2009 1:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m a Vinny guy – I’d have had him 2nd, Kovy 3rd. And I agree with BP – right now, Staal is ahead of Backstrom ever-so-slightly. Or not. Tough call.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 1:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think maybe in terms of leadership. I could be wrong, but I see Staal as more of a team leader than NickyB. He wears the “A” for Carolina (I know, Backstrom has before, but not consistently), and is more vocal on the ice. These are my impressions of him from the limited amount of games that we see vs. the Canes, though. Please correct me if I am wrong….
by amkcaps on Jul 29, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also has a nice shiny ring that helps as a tie-breaker.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another reason to go with Vinny, I might add.
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 29, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aye
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Irrelevant. Lots of guys have rings in the division, none of the Caps do. Winning a Cup is a team effort, and having a ring does not have any objective implications on a player’s talent (other than they were obviously good enough to play in the NHL). Staal is way to streaky for my taste. He can be hot and near unstoppable, or cold and invisible. Backstrom is far more consistent than Staal is and I think he’s a more talented player as well.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being the top center on a Cup winner is hardly irrelevant.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it depends what you’re looking at. If you’re looking at overall career accomplishments or who’s been better on the whole of their career, sure, but I was thinking of this in large part as a “who do I expect to be the best players in 2009-10” exercise.
I will say I think that in this case I don’t see it as a major factor. Kovalchuk would be a top line wing on any team in the NHL, except the Capitals. The fact he was drafted by (and has spent his career with) one of the worst-run franchises in professional sports doesn’t change that.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To a point, I’d agree. However, doesn’t one have to take into consideration the age of the player, when the cup was won, and also, how has he played lately? Isn’t that the point of this list. (Yes, I realize that the players in question aren’t that old, just making a counter argument. Those cup wins weren’t last year.)
by gfcaps fan on Jul 29, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is when you don’t come close to replicating that performance later on.
(Close being a relative term obviously)
by brs03 on Jul 29, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Scott Gomez > Joe Thornton.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
C’mon. You’re better than simply putting words in my mouth, especially when I wrote “He also has a nice shiny ring that helps as a tie-breaker,” as in “all else equal…” Gomez and Thornton aren’t even close, so no, Gomez’s rings don’t put him ahead of Jumbo Joe.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just don’t see how something Staal was a part of, in a team effort, when Backstrom wasn’t even in the league, has any relevance regarding who is the better player. Staal was to a huge degree lucky to get that Cup. CAR’s D and G came together at the right time and they played well as a team. Since Backstrom has gotten into the league he has equaled Staal’s regular season scoring and outscored Staal in the playoffs. This despite Staal’s two extra years of experience and Cup ring. This despite Backstrom playing wing and being trusted with zero offensive responsibility in the first 1/4 of his rookie year. Backstrom is on a better development curve, and better right now. And if I had Peerless’ handy “by the tens” I’d bet that Backstrom’s by the tens look a whole lot better than Staal’s. I feel much more confident knowing what I’m getting when Backstrom hits the ice than when Staal does.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And there you go – a cogent argument as to why all else isn’t equal between Staal and Backstrom.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Gomez v. Thornton is a straw man. But I didn’t want to have to lay out a full argument as to why Backstrom is better than Staal unequivocally; my point was that I fundamentally dispute doling out individual credit for a team award. Except for the occasional goalie there isn’t really anyway to give players credit for winning a Cup because you need so many guys to contribute to do that.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So no bonus for a Conn Smythe-winning skater? That doesn’t demonstrate leadership, clutch play, etc.?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, first, Staal didn’t win the Conn Smythe. Second, he wasn’t even close to a leader on that team (Wesley and Brindy were, among others). And third, no I don’t think the Conn Smythe has that much weight. You can say PIT wouldn’t have won the Cup without Malkin, but they also wouldn’t have won the Cup without Crosby and probably a few other players as well. Malkin may have been the best Pen, but he wasn’t “the reason” they won. It was a team effort, everyone stepped up when they had the chance. That is fine and speaks well to them. But Backstrom was the second best Cap the entire playoffs, yet he’s being punished in this mental exercise because the rest of the team essentially let him down. Everything he has had in his control he has done extremely well, and that’s all that matters. Giving Staal credit for being on a Cup winning team is about as relevant in this discussion as Backstrom winnning the SEL rookie of the year, IMO.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Malkin’s the prime example of how the Conn Smythe isn’t a total indicator. If the Pens had been relying on Malkin all the way they’d have been out in the first round, maybe second. He didn’t pick up his play until the conference finals (which was great, he filled in when Crosby slowed down and then some).
by brs03 on Jul 29, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
08 Conn Smythe: Zetterberg; without Datsyuk and Lidstrom (and Osgood) DET doesn’t raise the Cup and Hank doesn’t win that award.
07 Conn Smythe: Scott Niedermayer; without Pronger, Getzlaf, Andy McDonald and Sammy Pahlsson he probably doesn’t win that award.
06: Cam Ward: Carried his team and now E. Staal gets credit for winning a Cup.
04: Brad Richards; had a huge playoffs but arguably was only the 5th best player on his team (Lecavalier, St. Louis, Khabibulin, Boyle).
Conn Smythe trophy goes to the best-performing player on the best team (usually) but the guy that wins it still relies heavily on his teammates just to get there. Is it a better feather in the cap than just winning a Cup? Yes. Is it in any way dispositive? No.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
06: Cam Ward: Carried his team and now E. Staal gets credit for winning a Cup.
Your arguments are much more effective when they’re least distortive.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha. That’s usually the case. I don’t mean in the grand “everyone says Staal won them the Cup” sense. I mean in this context. Staal could have played EXACTLY the same way in that playoffs and lost if Cam Ward hadn’t stood on his head. How would that have made him a better player? How does Ward standing on his head make Staal a better player?
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, to the extent that Ward standing on his head allowed Staal to gain the experience of 20+ playoff games and seeing what it takes to win the Cup, it makes him a better player. But I don’t disagree with your underlying argument.
As I said before, as a tie-breaker, winning a Cup is nice in that it’s evidence that a player has that experience under his belt (and I think we’d both agree that playoff experience matters). Nothing more, nothing less.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough. Can we be friends again?
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hells yeah – friends can debate intelligently.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
F&B, if you didn’t take on these types of challenges, i’d enjoy this blog moderately less.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 29, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you very much. That’s one of the best compliments you could give. I come for the content, I stay for the discussion.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like Norm and Cliff?
"The passion of our supporters cannot be contained by clothing."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 29, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s a little strong to say the rest of the team let him down… I don’t believe for one second there was a guy on that ice who wasn’t playing his heart out.
I do see your point though.
by Murshawursha on Jul 29, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let him down in execution, not effort.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Staal didn’t win the Conn Smythe. Second, he wasn’t even close to a leader on that team
I didn’t say he was – you said, “Except for the occasional goalie there isn’t really anyway to give players credit for winning a Cup” and I was commenting on that.
And third, no I don’t think the Conn Smythe has that much weight.
Well, to each his own, I suppose. But given that reputations are created in the playoffs, I think the performances not only are meaningful, but important.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not saying it’s not important, I’d obviously love to have a Conn Smythe winner on our team, but it still is highly dependent on other things. See above.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No question.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Further, You agree that AO was the best player in the Pens series, but the Caps lost. The best player’s team doesn’t always win; the best team does.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure (though I think there’s room for a caveat there regarding other-worldly goalie performances, unless by definition the team that wins is “the better team” in this argument).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, that’s why I put the comment about the “occasional goalie” in my comments above.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel much more confident knowing what I’m getting when Backstrom hits the ice than when Staal does.
Really? Staal’s averaged 38 goals / 44 assists since the lockout and been a pretty consistent point producer year in and year out. Backstrom has 36 goals in his NHL career.
I bet in a year or two I’ll like Backstrom more, he’s definitely got youth and a higher upside and is improving every month. At this point I think E. Staal is a dangerous player every time he touches the ice, and while Backstrom is highly skilled I don’t see him as much as a threat..
Further, I give Staal credit for being the best offensive player (far and away) on his team. Doesn’t knock Backstrom for having Ovechkin, Semin and Green but those are nice luxuries that Staal doesn’t have and he still creates offense.
So I got: Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Lecavalier, Staal and Backstrom as my top 5. I might even think of ranking Semin over Nick, just on pure skill.
Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*
*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night
by Hooks Orpik on Jul 29, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When CAR slumped last year Staal was nowhere to be found. When they were hot down the stretch, so was he. That’s why I say you don’t know what you’re getting from him. Even in the playoffs he was streaky. He had games where he was invisible, and games where he dominated. Backstrom may not dominate, but he was also never invisible. I recognize that Staal is THE offensive weapon on his team, but I don’t know how you can punish Backstrom for that. Backstrom, by virtue of playing with AO, still sees every team’s top D pairs and lines, yet he still scores consistently. Staal may be averaging good numbers post-lockout, but he hasn’t even come close to replicating the SC year that built his reputation. I wish someone had the “by the tens” numbers on Staal so we could put them up against Backstrom’s.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. Staal looks to me like someone who when on his game is top-3 on this list, but he’s consistently not on his game. Backstrom is.
by red army line on Jul 29, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I think on pure skill you could probably put Semin over everyone on the list. Unfortunately for him there is more to hockey than just pure skill.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
none of the Caps do.
Mike Knuble begs to differ.
by TJA on Jul 29, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Knuble still has that New Car smell or something that makes us forget he’s actually our guy now.
by war_capitals on Jul 29, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They haven’t washed the Flyer off of him yet.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
by gotsparkly on Jul 29, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ritual ceremony on the first day of training camp?
Wouldn’t you like to be a fly on the wall if that were to actually happen! :-)
by gfcaps fan on Jul 29, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how long it would take him to regrow skin…I don’t think I want to see that.
"You will remember the night you were struck by the sight of [18] thousand fists in the air" -Disturbed
by snowburnt on Jul 30, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
E. Staal is also a bit older than Nicky. I believe Nick, who is rather quiet by nature, was the youngest regular player on the roster last season (I’m excluding the baby goalies because they were up and down, same with Alzner)
by RedBirdie on Jul 29, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kovalchuk
It blows my mind at how young he actually is. He’s buried in Atlanta, I wonder what his future holds
by gnuf on Jul 29, 2009 1:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We should sign Kovy!!!!!
*Just felt like being rediculous
by WolfPackof1 on Jul 29, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It might not be that ridiculous…if the CAPS let Semin walk and sign Kovy as a UFA after next season. He’ll be a more expensive than 28, but that has to at least be a consideration. He’s also one of Ovie’s russian “brothers”.
by Direction 87 on Jul 29, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the odds of that turning the Capitals cap situation into anything other than a disaster are….low, to say the least.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you are thinking about resigning Semin at what ,7.5 to 8 mil a year for 5-7 years (just guessing), you have to look at what it would take to sign Kovy, maybe 8-9 mil per year for 7-9 years. I think you can make the case that Kovy may be the better long term investment and that if the difference is less than 2 million a year between he and Semin, that might not break the cap.
by Direction 87 on Jul 29, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If either of those guys wants 7.5 million or more, the Capitals should look elsewhere. The team would have to take drastic measures (i.e. moving Backstrom and at least one other solid player) to make that work cap-wise.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Semin would play 1 lw on most teams in the nhl and someone may decide to pay him like that. Im not looking at numbers,as I type but Semin probably gets a Hosa like deal from someone, or an offer.
by Direction 87 on Jul 29, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s going to be a restricted free agent next offseason, so if he gets an offer like that, the Capitals will take their four first draft picks and let someone else have the bad contract. But if the cap goes down like it’s expected to, I wouldn’t bet on anyone throwing money like that at Semin or anyone else for that matter. There are only nine guys in the NHL whose cap hits are 7.5M or higher and only four whose cap hits are 8M or higher. I don’t think anyone’s going to pay Semin that kind of money right now.
But even if someone did, the Caps would still be wise to let him go because if they want to keep the core of Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Green together they’re not going to be able to afford to pay Semin anywhere near 7.5M.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think next season will be big for Semin, both for a future contract and for the Capitals manning up, going to the paint. If he stays healthy I could see him at 50 g-100p or more, which would significantly up his value, maybe too much. If he gets banged up again, then he may not even get a raise from his current deal (I’m guessing in that case the deal is short).
by red army line on Jul 29, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So where do you think both he and Kovy fall salary wise after next season?.My real point in this whole discussion is if you are going to invest in Semin, you have to look at the difference between him and Kovy in salary and that Kovy may be the better value depending on what you can sign each for.
by Direction 87 on Jul 29, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Semin will be at about 5-5.5 and Kovalchuk anywhere from 6.5-8, assuming the salary cap does drop to ~$51M next year. if it stay where it is, I’d say 5.5 and 7-8.
But the biggest difference might be that Kovalchuk will be able to command a seven year contract; Semin will not.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right now it looks like next year will be defining for both. Kovy got hot after getting the C, but was that a fluke (ATL as a team got better too)? Can Semin stay healthy (especially in the playoffs)?
by red army line on Jul 29, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kovy got hot after getting the C, but was that a fluke (ATL as a team got better too)?
I wouldn’t call that a fluke. The guy’s been putting up numbers his whole career
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Kovy takes a discount to play with his buddy Ovie…
by Direction 87 on Jul 29, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But who is to say Semin wouldn’t also?
I think Semin is more likely to take a discount to stay with Ovie then Kovy would…
by JustJeff on Jul 29, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but he wasn’t producing as much before that. I expected 50 goals and 2nd in the Richard race
by red army line on Jul 30, 2009 4:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that case I think a solid center like Savard, but maybe younger, is better. Pens won with two solid centers. Detroit won with three solid centers. Anaheim, with 2. Same with Carolina. Depth at wing is good, but not necessarily at the expense of center.
by red army line on Jul 29, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think there is any chance Semin gets locked up at 7.5 to 8. If that’s what he asks for GMGM probably gives him 1-2 years or trades him. You can’t give that much money to your 2LW.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would take an MVP level season for Semin to warrant those kinds of numbers.
Wait and see what Backstrom gets paid, then figure Semin’s not likely getting a penny more (unless Backstrom takes a huge hometown discount).
If that’s what it really takes to get him, trade him for help on D.
by brs03 on Jul 29, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does Backstrom get? He’s a top 10, 21 year old, NHL center who gets better every week?
by Direction 87 on Jul 29, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I were the Capitals and looking to sign him to a long term deal, I’d offer 6.5M per or so. If he wants higher than that, I bring him back at a lower salary for a year or two and make his prove he deserves it.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I hope the deals don’t work out so he and 8 are up at the same time
by red army line on Jul 29, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d be ecstatic with basically anything less than 6 mil with decent term, but I’m thinking he gets a bit more than that. Tough to say though.
by brs03 on Jul 29, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know! one can only hope that he escapes to a better team that will surround him with good players and really unleashed his talent. (one in the Western Conference, please, so he doesn’t kick the Caps collective ass on a regular basis)
by RedBirdie on Jul 29, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe we could trade Nylander for Kovalchuk…straight up.
What? I’m serious!
by PaintDrinkingPete on Jul 29, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think Atlanta’s management is quite as stupid as Tampa Bay’s.
by RedBirdie on Jul 29, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the other hand…
February 24, 2007 — [Braydon Coburn] traded by the Atlanta Thrashers to the Philadelphia Flyers for Alexei Zhitnik
On February 25, 2007, Tkachuk was traded to the Atlanta Thrashers for Glen Metropolit, a 1st round pick in 2007, a 3rd round pick in 2007 and a 2nd round pick in 2008.
On June 26 of the same year, St. Louis reacquired Tkachuk along with a conditional 4th round draft pick for a conditional first round pick in 2008. If Tkachuk had resigned with the Thrashers, the Blues would have Atlanta’s 1st round pick in 2008.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, they’re stupid, but not quite the Len Barrie/Oren Koules regime stupid.
by RedBirdie on Jul 29, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, am I interpreting that right? Atlanta traded Tkachuk and a 4th back to St. Louis for St. Louis’ 1st rounder in ‘08, with the stipulation that if Tkachuk signed with Atlanta, St. Louis would get Atlanta’s first?
That… I think my brain just exploded.
by Murshawursha on Jul 29, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For all the grief the SE takes, you’d be hard pressed to find another division with as much top end talent at forward.
by b.orr4 on Jul 29, 2009 1:47 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
no coincidence that four of the top ten were 1st overall draft picks.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 29, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Atlantic isn’t exactly suffering.
Crosby
Malkin
Carter
Parise
Richards
Gaborik
Gagne
Not to mention younger “stars to be” like Giroux and Tavares
by brs03 on Jul 29, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That list is probably more impressive because as a division the SE can’t play defense, while the Atlantic clearly can.
by red army line on Jul 29, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like Jason Spezza is getting reprimanded in the background of that photo!
"My face is my mask."
by jakeshapiro on Jul 29, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice job E. I can’t quibble with any of the names or the order.
by CP2Devil on Jul 29, 2009 2:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My Top 10
1) Alex Ovechkin – No brainer
2) Ilya Kovalchuk – Imagine if Atlanta still had him and Heatley toghether…
3) Nick Backstrom – Sure playing with Ovechkin gets him a lot of points, but part of why Ovechkin gets a lot of points is playing with Nick
4) Eric Staal – The most complete player in the division not skating in a Caps uniform
5) Martin St. Louis – The most consistent of Tampa’s forwards, always tough to defend.
6) Aleander Semin – Possibly the most talented player in the division, if not the NHL. Yes, that includes Ovechkin.
7) Vinny Lecavalier – For the moment, he’s in the Southeast. Great offensive skills, is occaisonally prone to slumps.
8) Ray Whitney – A magician with the puck… possibly the best passer in the division, although Backstrom is close
9) Mike Knuble – Toughness counts, and he is as tough as they come. Possibly the toughest forward in the division other than Eric Staal
10) David Booth – Scoring 30+ goals for a team like Florida merits attention
I am convinced that next year Stamkos will be on the list… and perhaps Brooks Laich.
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Caps on Jul 29, 2009 3:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
good call on Knuble—he’ll easily get to the 70 pt plateau if he skates 70+ games with Ovechkin and I’ll take his game at RW over the super talented St. Louis
from the house that Red Jesus built
by bigonetimer on Jul 29, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would you take Knuble over St. Louis?
While I love Knuble’s game, and I’m sure that he will benefit mightily from playing with Ovie and Backis, it’s tough to say that Knuble is a “better” player than Marty.
by Sct112 on Jul 29, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, he’s simply not.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on what role he plays. Knuble is better at what he does—crash the net, win battles in the corner—and St. Louis is better at what he does—pretty much all else. That’s why they do what they do.
by red army line on Jul 29, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um, yeah. And the “pretty much all else” is a hell of a lot more broad, ergo he is a better hockey player.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could simply say “MVP” and save yourself the trouble I think. It’s not even close between the two, and that’s no knock on Knuble.
by brs03 on Jul 29, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
who said ‘better’? I said I would take his power forward game over the relative finesse game of St. Louis. Just a style preference on the wing.
from the house that Red Jesus built
by bigonetimer on Jul 30, 2009 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is a list about the best players in the SE. The way I read it, if you would take a Knuble over St. Louis you are saying Knuble is “better.”
by Sct112 on Jul 30, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Marty. He is a class act, too. If the question was ‘who is better’ in the first place, there is no doubt about the answer.
Let me try putting it this way: For the same reasons I like 21, I like 22 and if I’m putting together a top line, I want size and nasty on the wing rather than 5’8", if I had the choice. And I would be happy to revisit this discussion when we recap ‘who was the best RW in the division in 2009-10’ at the the end of next year.
from the house that Red Jesus built
by bigonetimer on Jul 30, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Marty.
I can’t stand him. I watch him play and just want to scream “somebody hit him!”
Which is why I’d want him on my team.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 31, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’d rather have St. Louis ahead of Knuble, but they’re both in the top 10 this year. We’ll see about next year as I expect Stamkos will blast his way onto this list…
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Caps on Jul 29, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
9) Mike Knuble – Toughness counts, and he is as tough as they come. Possibly the toughest forward in the division other than Eric Staal
That’s a joke, right? I mean, calling Eric Staal tough? I can’t think of a bigger diver in the game – yes, including you-know-who – and he was credited less than one hit per game last season.
What am I missing?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don’t you remember that game where Eric Staal broke his nose and had a tooth knocked out and still scored 4 goals. That’s pretty tough, IMO.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Oh man, I remember that…. didnt the Caps Canes win that game in OT? Pretty exciting if you ask me
by amkcaps on Jul 29, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do not remember that, but I do remember the time he had his palate bone crushed and finished his shift.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What am I missing?
He doesn’t wear a shield, so he must be tough. Or something.
I agree – Staal reputation for embellishment is part of the reason I gave Backstrom the nod over him in the original post.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Along those lines, Staal was 8th in hits and 7th in blocked shots among Carolina forwards this past season.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t forget, he’s Canadian.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That too.
To me, the Staal description (and rank) sounds like Lecavalier and vice versa.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Staal’s plenty tough. Sure he dives a lot but he also hits hard, goes to the front of the net, and buries his chances. Don’t get me wrong, AO’s plenty tough, but Staal… if you watch his complete game is one of the toughest guys out there.
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Caps on Jul 29, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Staal’s had 237 hits over the last three seasons combined. Ovechkin had 243 hits this season, dislodged a pane of glass in his first NHL shift, and was voted one of the hardest hitters in the NHL by other players. It’s not even close.
Sure, Staal uses his giant frame to go to the net because it’s what his skill set is but he’s not even the toughest forward on his own team (Cole, Brind-Amour, and Ruutu are all ahead of him), let alone the Southeast division.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ovechkin had 243 hits this season, dislodged a pane of glass in his first NHL shift, and was voted one of the hardest hitters in the NHL by other players. It’s not even close.
A little check down memory lane.
Have a skate day!
by Your Nation's Capital on Jul 29, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Eric Staal is tougher than Alex Ovechkin.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Staal probably would fall under “Power Forward”. While Ovechkin can too, I bet a lot of people say he’s a “Sniper” (IMO he’s a PF with great hands and shot). PF = tough sort of by definition of what they do. I suppose a slight parallel can be drawn to Detroit—plenty tough, but I don’t think they have PIMs or hits to show for it. But he’s unafraid when inspired.
by red army line on Jul 29, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Staal probably would fall under "Power Forward". While Ovechkin can too, I bet a lot of people say he’s a "Sniper"
Maybe, but those are just labels that don’t mean that much in and of themselves outside of NHL 09 – Dion Phaneuf is an offensive defenseman but he was voted the hardest hitter in the league by the players a couple years ago; Staal uses his big frame to make plays, but so did Viktor Kozlov.
Personally I think of Ovechkin’s game as more power based: his shot isn’t that accurate, he’s not a great stickhandler, and he generates most of his success by barreling through everyone with superior athleticism.
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec-a-roni, the San Francisco treat
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your take on Ovie. He acts like a power forward a lot of the time, but he has an unusually great shot (and legendary ability to get them off) for a power forward. But if you filter out that considerable aspect of his game, I think most of what is left looks and acts a whole lot like a power forward.
I personally can’t imagine ever calling Eric Staal “tough” on the hockey player scale. The dude dives constantly and plays smaller than his size. He’s tough like Viktor Kozlov, if Kozlov dove every time someone breathed on him.
by grapejoos on Jul 29, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A few months ago, a teacher at my school told me he thought that Backstrom was the best center in the SE. This teacher is also a Pens fan. Jus’ sayin’
ZING! ZANG! ZUNG!
by crabchowdah on Jul 29, 2009 3:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, it was more like a couple of months ago. It was near the end of the school year, and probably after we lost.
ZING! ZANG! ZUNG!
by crabchowdah on Jul 29, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I know why a Pens fan might like Backstrom.
Ugh. Do yourself a favor and don’t click on that.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least you have given us fair warning. The thought of it makes me cringe.
by Sct112 on Jul 29, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worst. Weekend. Ever.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 29, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don’t remind me. Nicky made his little mistake, and then my mom called to tell me my grandfather passed away as the Penguins were celebrating. Sucktacular.
by RedBirdie on Jul 29, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was a miserable weekend… but while it could have cost the Caps, in the end it really didn’t.
They learned from it and moved on.
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Caps on Jul 29, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I waved the cursor over the link and saw it was YouTube and knew I didn’t need to click on it.
by gfcaps fan on Jul 29, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s pretend Caps win that game. The epic run to the playoffs isn’t nearly as epic!
The bright side? After that game, the Caps went 11-1.
by Laich on Jul 29, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the very least the Caps proved they can skate with the top team in the East. I think had Fedorov had his stick on the ice (not to blame him, but he could have had another GWG) the Caps won G7 vs PHI, they could’ve maybe upset PIT in a shocker (though I would’ve thought Pens in 7). And people picked Tampa to win the division in 08-09. Ha.
by red army line on Jul 29, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And people picked Tampa to win the division in 08-09. Ha.
Only the Lightning’s owners…
by David M. Getz on Jul 29, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As PuckDaddy said, they were drinking the Koules-Aid
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Caps on Jul 30, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After the home opener, a Ducks fan on the Metro told me the Lightning would win the division, and that the Caps would finish 8th in the conference behind them and Atlanta.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
by Whiter Mage on Aug 8, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually don’t think the teacher had that in mind.
ZING! ZANG! ZUNG!
by crabchowdah on Jul 29, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was at that game surrounded by Penguins fans, who thought that Crosby had shot the puck. I about vomitted walking down the stairs hearing how great Crosby was at scoring GWGs.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
by Whiter Mage on Aug 8, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW Backstrom v. Staal by the Tens
Just to bolster my point about Backstrom’s consistency compared to Staal’s:
Staal: (4-3-7) (4-2-6) (3-4-7) (7-3-10) (3-3-6) (6-4-10) (5-11-16) (8-7-15, 12 games) 75 points total.
Backstrom: (0-4-4) (4-11-15) (5-6-11) (2-12-14) (1-5-6) (3-11-14) (4-6-10) (3-12-15, 12 games) 88 points total.
Backstrom had 2 ten game segments where he averaged less than a point a game, Staal had 4 (half the season). Staal had two huge segments late in the year where he was between 1.25 and 1.5 points per game. Backstrom had 4 such segments.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 29, 2009 5:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good research doing the digging. I know Backstrom’s game isn’t all about goal scoring but Staal scored more than 3 goals in 6 of the 8 a reasonably solid and consistent pace. Backstrom had only four 10 game stretches of 3+ goals.
Honestly it’s probably just personal preference at this point, both are heck of players. Backstrom is clearly a better playmaker and has the vision. Staal has been better at manufacturing points by himself (i.e goals and scoring with less talented offensive players around him).
Backstrom, is a 25g, 70a guy in my book next year, maybe 30-75 in his prime that he safely should grow into.
Staal, realistically off his past performance is a 45g, 45a guy in a good year, maybe approaching 100 points if the bounces go his way throughout the year.
And from the Crosby v. Ovechkin v. Malkin debate I thought Caps fans were inclined to favor the goals :)
But I see your point about Backstrom’s more consistent play and better upside. I wouldn’t say ranking him higher is the wrong answer, but I’ve personally got it the other way around…For the near future at least
Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*
*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night
by Hooks Orpik on Jul 29, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no surprise you’ve bought into the ‘brand’…overrated.
from the house that Red Jesus built
by bigonetimer on Jul 31, 2009 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been drinking, but. . .
Any list that puts David Booth or Nathan Horton (intriguing, but young) ahead of Ray Whitney is wrong. Yes, “the Wizard” is old, but he’s also put up numbers that would make Booth or Horton soil themselves with glee if they could one day achieve the same standard. Soon they will likely surpass Whitney, but right now I would take him first if given the option.
by D'ohboy on Jul 30, 2009 12:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
23 goals and 53 assists is going to make guys who’ve topped 30 goals and 60 points on teams that are worse and play a very defensive style “soil themselves with glee”? I doubt that.
by David M. Getz on Jul 30, 2009 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. Career-wise the Wizard takes it, but right not it’s no contest: Booth is unquestionably the superior player, as is Horton most likely.
by brs03 on Jul 30, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was referring to career numbers, but I should have made that clearer. For all of their potential (and they have a lot) none of Stamkos, Horton or Booth has equaled Whitney’s best seasons – even when Whitney was the one playing on crappy teams with defensive orientations. The guy had 71 points for the 99-00 Panthers and 76 for the 02-03 Blue Jackets.
When judging the “best” players, I think that longevity, durability and consistency ought to play some sort of role – it’s all too easy to underestimate just how difficult it is to put up the kind of stats that Whitney has for the length of time that he has. If you want to argue potential, then I’d say that Stamkos belongs much, much further up the list.
by D'ohboy on Jul 30, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right – I’m really just referring to right now, as in the 09-10 season. Right now I think Boorth and Horton are better.
by David M. Getz on Jul 30, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
right now I would take [Whitney] first if given the option.
Past numbers don’t help you right now, even if Whitney has had a good career. He’s a one dimensional player that adds very little to a team aside from the PP. Right now Booth and Horton are better and more well rounded.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 30, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Past numbers may not help right now, but neither does potential. Whitney outscored Horton by 32 pts last year, and put up 17 more than Booth. Playing for some God-Awful teams primarily during the dead-puck era, Whitney put up 8 years of 60 points or better. Between them, Horton and Booth have done that three times. Wanna take a friendly wager on which of the three (Whitney, Booth or Horton) puts up more G/A/Pts next year?
Neither Horton nor Booth has Whitney’s ice vision or passing ability. They may be able to score a few more goals than him, but he’ll probably always best them in assists and total points. Because of his size, the knock on Whitney has always been that he’s one-dimensional, but frankly, I don’t care. He puts up the numbers, even if that means he puts them up on the PP. They all count the same at the end of the game. It’s like critiquing Andrew Brunette for his lack of skating – it hasn’t stopped him from being a productive NHL forward.
I’m not disagreeing with your assertion that Booth and Horton have upside (although if that’s the argument, then I’d personally shuffle the rankings and put Stamkos ahead of Booth, then Horton). Neither of them is a bad player – they’re simply not as good today as Whitney.
How about I put this another way: imagine yourself watching a Caps game and the puck winds up on the stick of either Stamkos, Horton, Booth or Whitney – which one makes you worry that something bad is about to happen?
by D'ohboy on Jul 30, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Past numbers may not help right now, but neither does potential.
But that potential has turned in to performance – both Booth and Horton have proven they can be thirty-goal, sixty-point guys.
Whitney outscored Horton by 32 pts last year, and put up 17 more than Booth.
He also played ten more games than Booth and fifteen more than Horton, who also spent a lot of the year hurt.
Playing for some God-Awful teams primarily during the dead-puck era, Whitney put up 8 years of 60 points or better. Between them, Horton and Booth have done that three times.
Yes, but those players have played many fewer seasons and many fewer seasons during their prime. It’s not apples to apples. Besides, what Whitney did when Horton and Booth were 14 isn’t really relevant to who the better play is today. Besides there are a lot of other aspects of the game – physical play, defense, etc – that factor in to how good a player someone is.
How about I put this another way: imagine yourself watching a Caps game and the puck winds up on the stick of either Stamkos, Horton, Booth or Whitney – which one makes you worry that something bad is about to happen?
That really depends on a lot of different aspects of the situation – intercepting a pass at your own blue line is different from picking the puck up in the corner in the offensive zone. But as a general rule I’d rank them Booth, Stamkos, Whitney, Horton.
by David M. Getz on Jul 30, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Injuries/Games Played
The ability to stay healthy and in the lineup is one facet of player evaluation. If Marian Gaborik could stay healthy, he’d be one of the best forwards in the league, and if I had wheels, I’d be a wagon. Neither is going to happen.
Yes, the career stats are a bit of apples vs. oranges, but the point is that Whitney isn’t a fluke – he’s a genuinely talented offensive player. Booth has had ONE good year, and I think by this point, Horton has established that he’s a 25G/60 point type of player which, while valuable, isn’t as good as a 25G/75 point player, unless his defense is Jere Lehtinen-good (which it isn’t).
In some ways, I feel like we’re having a bizarro-world discussion of Jeff Schultz. Like Schultz, Whitney doesn’t exactly fit the mold of a traditional winger. He’s small and he doesn’t hit much, nor is he a corner-puck-digger. He’s almost a centerman playing wing, but his defense isn’t spectacular. My point is, for as much as people rip on Schultz for not hitting people and having the offensive capability of a lamppost, he’s highly effective at his job. which is helping his team keep pucks out of the net. Likewise, Whitney isn’t a great two-way forward, and he’s never going to rack up the PIMs. All he does is help his team put the puck in the net which, I would argue, is his job.
For all the discussion of Carolina as an “offensive” team, if you look at their team statistics through the years, you’ll note that they were actually a rather defensive team until after the lockout, which just so happened to coincide with the arrival of Whitney. Now, I understand there were other factors at play (Laviolette and the emergence of Staal are two), but Whitney’s presence played a role as well.
by D'ohboy on Jul 30, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Booth and Horton missing 10-15 games last year isn’t the same as Gaborik having a time-share on the LTIR. If it becomes a recurring thing then maybe you worry but it’s way too soon to consider them injury-prone enough to take away from their evaluation. Whitney isn’t good enough offensively that you can overlook his defensive play. He was Even the year they won the Cup; he was +2 this year. That’s just unacceptable. He also plays the prototypical “regular season” kind of game: all cutesy bullshit perimeter play, no ability to fight through a tough defense (See also: Joe Thornton). Surprise, surprise, Whitney is a .8 point-per-game player in the regular season (811 pts/992 games), and he’s less than .5 points-per-game in the playoffs (32/65).
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 30, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about I put this another way: imagine yourself watching a Caps game and the puck winds up on the stick of either Stamkos, Horton, Booth or Whitney
Honestly, it’s Booth. That guy’s speed is scary and he just makes things happen. That may change with Stamkos this year but at the close of 08-09 it was Booth.
I don’t knock Whitney’s size, I knock his ability to play the game once he leaves the offensive zone. Despite the offensive numbers you outlined, Whitney has only been a +10 or better twice in his career, the last time being 99-00.
Booth and Horton both missed more games than Whitney last year, and they played for the “protect the Castle at all costs” Jacques Martin. Whitney has been with the run and gun ’Canes for years now and is still only a PP specialist.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 30, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pete DeBoer was the coach of the Cats last year, not Martin.
As for the player you should worry about the most vs. the Caps:
Horton: 4 games, 1G, 0A, Even
Booth: 5 games, 2G, 3A, Even
Whitney: 6 games, 3G, 5A, +6
by D'ohboy on Jul 30, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cats were still a pretty defensive team, and Martin’s defensive fingerprints were still all over it. Whitney should have more points considering the team he plays for. I stand by my belief that Booth is scarier than Whitney.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jul 30, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recent FanShots
Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Washington
|
22 | 13 | 5 | 4 | 30 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
19 | 8 | 4 | 7 | 23 |
|
Atlanta
|
18 | 10 | 6 | 2 | 22 |
|
Florida
|
20 | 9 | 9 | 2 | 20 |
|
Carolina
|
21 | 4 | 12 | 5 | 13 |
(updated 11.21.2009 at 8:36 AM EST)
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
