Tuesday Caps Clips: Arbitration Day for Jurcina
by J.P. on Jul 28, 2009 6:38 AM EDT
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Your savory breakfast links:
- It's arbitration day for Milan Jurcina, and his agent reminds us that it's "Bad business for teams to perform character assassination on one of it's assets" and that a "Hearing should be business like and professional. Team should argue stridently in advocating position but avoid low blows." [@walsha]
- Low blows? Guess he wouldn't be fond of my "to call Jurcina one-dimensional would mislead the reader by implying there is an area of his game that is particularly strong" line. [Our mock Jurcina arbitration]
- Place your bets as to Jurcina's award in the comments and win the adoration of your fellow Rink Rats when you nail it
(we'll know by August 6). - Waste away your day designing a third jersey for the Caps (and posting it in the comments). Or, for you real
sycophantscreative readers, a Rink jersey would be suh-weet. [Puck Daddy] - History lesson: Guy Charron, the Caps' first free agent acquisition. [Capitals.com]
- Might the Caps go with a tandem of Simeon Varlamov and Michal Neuvirth in 2010-11? Let's get through this season first, shall we? [The Hockey News]
- Alex Ovechkin and a sheep (that's enough of a tease to get you to click through). [Alex Ovetjkin]
- A couple of great shots (both pictures and commentary) from the Dave Fay Memorial game. [Tic Tac Toe Hockey]
- Team Canada is probably looking at six defensemen for three available spots: Mike Green, Dion Phaneuf, Duncan Keith, Brent Seabrook, Brent Burns and Dan Boyle. Gimme Green, Keith and Boyle. [Globe and Mail]
- If you're interested in the future of hockey journalism, there's a great roundtable read over at SB Nation's Stars blog. [Defending Big D]
- Finally, random
depressingstat time - here's a list of the top ten Caps skaters with the most games played for the team all-time with eight or fewer goals scored:Player Games Played Goals Shaone Morrisonn 309 8 Timo Blomqvist 223 4 Steve Eminger 212 6 Milan Jurcina 184 6 Jeff Schultz 174 6 Dmitri Mironov 155 8 Bryan Watson 155 4 Paul MacKinnon 147 5 John Erskine 132 3 Mike Lalor 132 6
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Juice arb bets
I’ll get us started – $1.325m
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 28, 2009 7:01 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I’d love to see the average salary of an NHL D who gets as little special teams time as Juice does.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Beats me. For the record, I pulled that number more or less out of thin air by thinking, “okay, what’s fair. Now what’s 1 1/3 that”; I’ve clearly been too influenced by last year’s ruling on Mo.
Yeah, but Mo had the urban legend that he somehow aided Mike Green’s emergence going for him. Juice has, what, that a rookie and a 38-year-old converted center made him play better?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Last year, there were two NHL defensemen who played in at least 40 games and averaged both less PP and SH time than Jurcina: Erik Reitz and Sheldon Brookbank.
They both made $500,000.
Don’t sleep on how little Juice does.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 28, 2009 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Rec’d for the work.
"Yes, It is a 'Beautiful Game.' It's because we see something meaningful that we hope to someday, somehow, see in ourselves."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 28, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
1.250 Million. I’m betting the Arbitrator does what he shouldn’t, and takes the economic environment into account.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 28, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions
$1.3m
if we were doing price is right rules, I would have said $1.326m
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jul 28, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s arbitration day for Milan Jurcina, and his agent reminds us that it’s “Bad business for teams to perform character assassination on one of it’s assets” and that a “Hearing should be business like and professional. Team should argue stridently in advocating position but avoid low blows.”
That’s a watershed moment… an agent getting all up in a blog’s face.
If you've read this far...seek help.
I’ll go $1.3m, while kinda being stunned that Allan Walsh has a Twitter page.
"Yes, It is a 'Beautiful Game.' It's because we see something meaningful that we hope to someday, somehow, see in ourselves."
I’m surprised more agents don’t – it’s a free PR platform on which your “opponent” (i.e. the teams) would never actively dispute you.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
drew rosenhaus has a ton of followers i noticed.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 28, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes. Here‘s an article on it. Relevant (to us) paragraph:
Six years ago, then Vancouver Canuck centre Brendan Morrison went to salary arbitration and had to listen while the team’s lawyer compared him to a mouse that was riding the back of an elephant (actually, two, named Markus Naslund and Todd Bertuzzi).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Oh, but didn’t the mouse help the elephant FLY in Dumbo?!
Rockin' the Red in Section 412
by boutros23 on Jul 28, 2009 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
That would have been an epic response for BMo’s agent to zing the ’Nucks with.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Morning, folks. I’ll go $1.39 million while waiting for the VPN to decide it wants to connect.
Related question: How high would the Rink Rats be willing to go before letting Juice go UFA, and how high do you think the Caps are willing to go?
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
The cutoff is over 1.5ish, so they have to let it go at least to that. Not sure how much higher would be worth it to the team though.
I don’t think the team walks from anything south of $1.75m. North of that, it starts to get dicey, but I still doubt they walk away (barring an obscene ruling). You can’t just lose assets for nothing.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
No, but I think he walks if he comes in higher than Alzner (including bonuses). I don’t think he will, but who knows in this economic climate.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
A bad ruling will mean they’ll sign him and try to trade him and someone else (remember, they can go over the cap a bit during the offseason). I can’t envision a ruling so bad they’d be willing to lose him for nothing.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Fair enough, but I don’t like going over the cap during the offseason – to me, that’s a good way to piss off a lot of people and leave yourself absolutely no room for callups or anything like that.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
What do you mean piss people off? Do you mean pissing off the players because they know someone has to be shipped out of town? If that’s what you mean, I’d suggest most of the Caps know that there are still some moves to be made, especially on D. Most of these guys were here the other year when we carried 8 D and heard GMGM and BB say they don’t like to carry 8 D. They should be expecting some movement.
I’m not sure I follow – I don’t see who would be upset about the team going over the cap in the offseason and using the offseason buffer doesn’t impact whether they can call anyone up during the regular season when the numbers start counting.
“Mr. McPhee, there’s a Mr. Crunch on the line. He’d like to discuss the cap situation…”
by Gould Old Days on Jul 28, 2009 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
New Caps mascot? I think so! Great business for the Quaker Oats Company, and a better mascot for us than Slapshot, AKA “Most Unimaginitive Mascot Possible.”
"My face is my mask."
by Jake Shapiro on Jul 28, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Except why would anyone trade for a guy that’s been overpaid?
If the award is bad but not outrageous, I can see them keeping him and trying to move him, but possibly settling for moving Mo instead if they’re set on clearing up the space. But if it’s too high there’s not going to be a market for him, so they might as well just walk if they don’t want to be handcuffed.
Things may be different at the deadline I suppose.
why would anyone trade for a guy that’s been overpaid?
Obviously this is a huge consideration, but for a team that’s nowhere near the cap and sees a guy like Jurcina – with his body, upside and age – there’s not much difference between $1m and $2m, and they may be willing to take a chance.
Bottom line running through the whole Jurcina debate is whether you pay for past performance or potential. The Caps didn’t want to pay for potential – which is why they’re in arbitration – but someone else might.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Juice does have some upside, and likely his deal will be short. Also could be used for the other squad to shed cap space
by red army line on Jul 28, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Just for fun, I’ll go lower and say $1.2 million. If it goes to $1.5 million, can the team afford to keep everyone? In this market, he’d better hope it doesn’t go so high they cut him loose, because I think he’d end up with less than his QO elsewhere. Not because he’s not worth more than that, just that the market is getting glutted. I’ll say at 1.6 they let him go.
As I noted in my “brief”:
Exelby’s role on the Thrashers was more similar to Jurcina’s (though Exelby was a top-four defenseman for the Division-winning Thrashers in both average ice time overall and shorthanded), but Exelby also provided a certain measure of protection to his teammates, having engaged in 11 fights at the NHL level through his platform year. Jurcina, on the other hand, has never received a fighting major in an NHL regular or post-season game. Exelby’s platform season and career to that point earned him a $1.39 million (average annual salary) contract, but given his role and the minutes played, he was (and remains) a more valuable player than Jurcina.Juice a) wasn’t a Top 4 guy, b) got no special teams time, and c) doesn’t fight.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Team Canada...
Agreed about those 3 defensemen…Phanuef is completely overrated. Doesn’t matter anyway though, because no one’s beating the Russians (except for possibly the Swedes).
As for Juice, I think he gets 1.5, and the team walks away from it
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Jul 28, 2009 8:46 AM EDT reply actions
They can’t walk away unless it’s above $1.57, and I can’t imagine they’d walk from anything that “low.”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
My guess that if Juice gets more than Alzner and his bonuses, they might let him go.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
I see the reasoning there, but I don’t think that’s going to be the cutoff point. If Jurcina’s contract is manageable for the time being, there’s no reason not to keep him and at least see if you can’t get something for him in a trade.
To point: They can be 10 percent over the cap until the end of September, so if need be: Why not be ten percent over the cap until the end of September?
I wouldn’t put money on being able to move Juice given the number of UFA’s still out there.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
See above – no way they walk away from an asset for nothing. That would be epic – EPIC – asset mismanagement.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 28, 2009 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Down, boy. I already said I agreed that you can’t let them walk for nothing unless he becomes nothing but a handicap. But, there’s a point where the award becomes so big that it hurts the Caps and he becomes untradeable. I’m trying to get a sense of where that point is – not saying he’ll hit it or even come close, just trying to get a sense of where it is.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
Down boy? Who are you talking to?
Take a look at the history of NHL arbitration rulings and those that teams walked away from, and see if any realistic Jurcina ruling is likely to fit in that small group.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 28, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn’t put money on being able to move Juice given the number of UFA’s still out there.
But which of those UFAs are both the type of player Jurcina is and offer the raw skill set he does?
Well, you’re the expert, you tell me. Here’s the list of D still out there. I see a relatively limited number, of whom I don’t know that much.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
The vast majority of the top guys there are over 30 and have no more upside. Juice still has upside. At the very least he could either be a) a throw in for a trade or b) traded for a mid-round pick or future considerations. There is always a need for depth NHL D that can give you reliable minutes. I find it hard to believe the arbitrator will give an award that is so grossly disproportionate with Juice’s play that nobody would want him.
When does Jurcina go UFA?
I also ran the numbers on capgeek, just for fun, with Alzner out and Jurcina with Alzner’s salary:
FORWARDS
Alexander Ovechkin ($9.538m) / Michael Nylander ($4.875m) / Alexander Semin ($4.600m)
Mike Knuble ($2.800m) / Chris Clark ($2.633m) / Nicklas Backstrom ($2.400m)
Brooks Laich ($2.067m) / Brendan Morrison ($1.500m) / Matt Bradley ($1.000m)
Eric Fehr ($0.772m) / Boyd Gordon ($0.761m) / Dave Steckel ($0.725m)
Tomas Fleischmann ($0.725m) / Keith Aucoin ($0.487m)
DEFENSEMEN
Mike Green ($5.250m) / Tom Poti ($3.500m)
Brian Pothier ($2.500m) / Shaone Morrisonn ($1.975m)
- Milan Jurcina ($1.675m) / John Erskine ($1.250m)
Jeff Schultz ($0.715m)
GOALTENDERS
Jose Theodore ($4.500m) / Simeon Varlamov ($0.822m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
ROSTER: 23; PAYROLL: $57.437m; CAP ROOM: $1.013m BONUSES: $1.650m
Ignoring the retardation that is the lines, I see what you mean, but with the cap dropping next year and Backstrom and Semin among others needing to be re-signed, I can’t imagine GMGM wanting to use the bonus cushion if he doesn’t have to. I also can’t help but think he wants to leave himself some room at the trade deadline.
Of course, if the Nylander-to-Omsk rumors actually happen, all bets are off :)
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
I think the odds the team opens the season with eight defensemen are very, very low. But I also think the team uses that buffer zone Tyler mentioned in order to keep Jurcina try and make a deal before the players start counting against the cap unless his award is so large it makes him untradeable.
unless his award is so large it makes him untradeable.
I see what you’re saying, but this is what I’m asking about. Given the number of UFA on the market (h/t capgeek.com) there’s a point at which he’s untradeable. (The link there is a list of all the D still still UFA and unsigned.)
I guess it depends on what a team is looking for.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
Player Games Played Goals
Shaone Morrisonn 309 8
Milan Jurcina 184 6
Jeff Schultz 174 6
John Erskine 132 3
I wish Boudreau would take the handcuffs off and let his defensemen try to score goals instead of playing purely defensive hockey all the time…
by Gould Old Days on Jul 28, 2009 9:01 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Nice.
"Yes, It is a 'Beautiful Game.' It's because we see something meaningful that we hope to someday, somehow, see in ourselves."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 28, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Downright Hanlon-esque is he.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Especially since the last 3 are such great skaters and the first is the offensive-minded D on his regular pair.
by red army line on Jul 28, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
1) Phaneuf will get a slot. The fact that he plays in a Canadien city helps his chances greatly. he, and his new team mate Bowmeester have to be two of the most over rated defenders i the NHL.
2) Jurcina will get a 1.75 mil award.
I find sometimes it's easy to be myself
sometimes I find it's better to be somebody else
Mark Stowe’s wife is also a crazy bidder.
"Yes, It is a 'Beautiful Game.' It's because we see something meaningful that we hope to someday, somehow, see in ourselves."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 28, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Holy Fanoley, that’s Steve Wozniak in the photo. I just checked the original link the photo came from, and sure enough its an article about the Woz showing up on Price is Right.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 28, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Not only is that true, but insanely bizarre.
"Yes, It is a 'Beautiful Game.' It's because we see something meaningful that we hope to someday, somehow, see in ourselves."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 28, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Dang, I always wanted to be on TPIR. Did Jeopardy, but that one doesn’t have the same parting gifts…
Rockin' the Red in Section 412
A microwave, the home version of the game and a moustache ride from Alex?
"Yes, It is a 'Beautiful Game.' It's because we see something meaningful that we hope to someday, somehow, see in ourselves."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 28, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Sadly, the moustache is no more… I think I got a pen, a photo, and a few thousand bucks to help defray the cost of the trip out to LA.
Rockin' the Red in Section 412
a buddy of mine went on the College Student wheel of fortune and won a pickup truck. He got the final puzzle a second before time expired and did a hilarious jump and twirl in celebration that he didn’t live down for the rest of his time at Maryland.
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jul 28, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m pretty sure I saw that episode.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Amen to that, though I’m thinking many in these parts are too young to remember it. Thank the good lord for syndication.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Rink Writers Resolutions:
- more Cheers
- more Natalie Portman
- less character assassination of Milan Jurcina
I don’t think Portman’s all that attractive either
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Jul 28, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I was bummed out when his character got killed in “A Bridge Too Far”
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Jul 28, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
She ought to do something about that hair…
by Gould Old Days on Jul 28, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
The top of the picture isn’t where I’m looking, at least.
by DrinkingPartner on Jul 28, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
she grew up with a friend of mine from college. They all went to the premier of the professional with Natalie. My friend was mildly weirded out when the Star Wars toys started showing up in stores. It must be strange seeing an “action figure” of a friend haha
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jul 28, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
joke
–noun
1. something said or done to provoke laughter or cause amusement, as a witticism, a short and amusing anecdote, or a prankish act: He tells very funny jokes. She played a joke on him.
2. something that is amusing or ridiculous, esp. because of being ludicrously inadequate or a sham; a thing, situation, or person laughed at rather than taken seriously; farce: Their pretense of generosity is a joke. An officer with no ability to command is a joke.
3. a matter that need not be taken very seriously; trifling matter: The loss was no joke.
4. something that does not present the expected challenge; something very easy: The test was a joke for the whole class.
by luketheriault on Jul 28, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
…Given that Battaglia scored at roughly the same rate during his time with the Capitals, I don’t think it was obvious it was a joke.
“I don’t think it was obvious it was a joke.”
duh:
–interjection (used to express annoyance at banality, obviousness, or stupidity.)
Origin:
1960–65, Americanism
by luketheriault on Jul 28, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Chill out, everyone, it’s only (calculating) too long before hockey season starts. At this rate, we’ll all be dead from infighting and asinine commentary. Let’s not turn into the boards, eh?
by DrinkingPartner on Jul 28, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Master Bates had four goals in 66 games as a Cap, which places him 3rd among all Caps forwards in games played with 4 our fewer goals. The list:
Kevin Kaminski – 132 games played, 3 goals
Doug Mohns – 75 games played, 2 goals
Bates Battaglia – 66 games played, 4 goals
Jakub Klepis – 66 games played, 4 goals
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Awarded $1.59m, at which the Caps accept and trade to Toronto for a 3rd Rounder next year.
by DrinkingPartner on Jul 28, 2009 10:16 AM EDT reply actions
I don’t know if he really fits their new “truculence” gimmick over there in LeafLand
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Jul 28, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Plus if you look at the Leafs blue line, they’ve got Komisarek, Beauchemin, Finger, Kaberle, Schenn, White, Van Ryn, and Exelby. Which of those guys does Jurcina replace?
Exactly. They’re so overloaded on the blueline there already they just traded Anton Stralman for Wayne Primeau’s rotting corpse
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Jul 28, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I was actually more making a joke at the expense of the Leafs and the ridiculous amount of off-season signings. Maybe I should have said Islanders…
by DrinkingPartner on Jul 28, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I say he gets 1.65 mil. That will force a trade, though I can only hope its Shultz who gets dealt. :-)
Just my shorthand for the whole Schultz debate. I think it’s ridiculous and laughable that anyone could think that Schultz is the least valuable D on the team, or the guy that should get moved. I just don’t have it in me to go through the whole debate anymore. Schultz for Norris!
Well, if he disappoints in the playoffs again and his salary gets too high, then we can re-discuss
by red army line on Jul 28, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t hold his playoff game against him. Clearly his injury was significant enough that he shouldn’t have been out there.
To be fair, if Theodore had even remotely resembled an NHL quality goalie on the “broken ankles” play, then I doubt people would be so hard on him for that game. He got faked out, perhaps aided by the broken rib, but his goalie was out of position and that’s why the play resulted in a goal.
LOL! Even with the smiley face (it was a joke) I knew all I had to do was put Schultz as the one getting dealt and F&B and DMG would come running to comment.
I’m starting to think of Schultz as Vincent Chase, DMG as E, and F&B as Turtle.
by Carl Putnam on Jul 28, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL! Even with the smiley face (it was a joke) I knew all I had to do was put Schultz as the one getting dealt and F&B and DMG would come running to comment.
Something like that.
I’m starting to think of Schultz as Vincent Chase, DMG as E, and F&B as Turtle.
And Schultz even has a muscle-headed and less-talented brother – albeit a younger one.
I Love Technology
He’s actually Tweeting from inside the hearing!
In Jurcina arb hearing now. We just finished our presentation, waiting for club to begin.
Hope he has a box of tissues handy…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Hope he can take a break from all his worries; sure would help a lot.
"Yes, It is a 'Beautiful Game.' It's because we see something meaningful that we hope to someday, somehow, see in ourselves."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 28, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“What’s shakin’, Mr. Jurcina?”
“My confidence after that hearing, Woodrow. Beer me.”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 28, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec’d. Unlike mine, there was some thought put into it.
"Yes, It is a 'Beautiful Game.' It's because we see something meaningful that we hope to someday, somehow, see in ourselves."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 28, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
has walsh’s comment
@JapersRink Completely off base. Facts are fine, PIM rate, Ice time all ok. Denigrating character of player has no place in any hearing.about 17 hours ago from web in reply to JapersRink
in response to your mock arb hearing?
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jul 28, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
heh. I thought all the euro’s got a pass.
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jul 28, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Here’s the exchange that set him off:
Him: “Bad business for teams to perform character assassination on one of it’s assets. Usually, hearing is business like and matter of fact.”
Me: "Pre-emptive PR from @walsha. What he’ll call “character assassination,” the other side calls “facts,” such as PIM rate, ice time, etc."
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 28, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you know, when agents are attacking a blog via their twitter feed……well, makes me think maybe someone has issues. Seriously, the best use of your time, as you prepare for a client’s arbitration hearing, is to call out some bloggers on twitter? really?
It depends. We all know the rules changing very rapidly, etc, and you consider larger blogs legitimate media outlets (which they may or may not be) and twitter a way to quickly communicate with a large number of people (it is) it’s not that outlandish. After all if he were “calling out some journalists on the radio”, no one would think twice.
Is this the same situation in terms of scope? No, but it’s probably closer than a lot of people realize.
No – this site provides much more meaningful information than anything you’ll hear on the radio :) It’s hard to know if any team personnel reads this or any other blog – clearly agents do – but I don’t think it’s too far fetched to wonder if the mock Jurcina arbitration and some of the facts presented in it, for example, might be influential.
In other news, Jurcina’s agent reads the Rink and finds it worth his time to respond. I think that’s very important.
Take note that while the Islanders just fired their radio team, the Panthers just hired a “Director of Social Networking”. That’s one indicator of what direction things are moving in these days.
but I don’t think right before an arbitration hearing is the time to be responding to blogs via twitter (or responding at all, actually). Its the timing (never mind the holier-than-thou tone) that I find quite questionable.
He responded and read a blog 16 hours before the hearing. Why do you care what the guy does on his own time?
During the hearing he has only updated on the process and what’s going on. I don’t know why anyone would look down on that. It’s informative, factual, and doesn’t include any details of what is being said.
I’m just giving my personal opinion that I think it reflects poorly upon him. I didn’t say you had to reach the same conclusion.
I will admit that I was directly caught up in a somewhat similar situation a couple years ago and it left a very bad taste in my mouth. It’s certainly led me to be very cynical of coaches/agents/managers of athletes in these sorts of situations.
Agents are assholes… See Boras, Scott.
by Murshawursha on Jul 28, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
He responded and read a blog 16 hours before the hearing. Why do you care what the guy does on his own time?
During the hearing he has only updated on the process and what’s going on. I don’t know why anyone would look down on that. It’s informative, factual, and doesn’t include any details of what is being said.
IMO, it is “his own time” only after the work of representing his client properly to the arbitration board is complete, which I would deem to be at the conclusion of this hearing when the briefcases are closed and the chairs pushed back.
It is fundamentally disrespectful to be fiddling with his BB while the Caps are making their case to the arbiter.
That being said, the Caps organization can read the Rink just as easily as the agent, and putting out his interpretation prior to the hearing may in fact aid his client. And the Kettler glass thing was hilarious. But not professional.
Maybe I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt that he is doing this during breaks, etc. since he’s had 3 updates in about 2 hours.
He hasn’t given interpretation he has defined the rules of arbitration for education.
The Kettler glass thing was a joke that someone fake tweeted.
Have any of you complaining about this actually read the tweets he is doing or you’re just guessing?
And no, you didn’t make up that word. It’s accurate.
by Scott in Shaw on Jul 28, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
He has to decide within 48 hours of the hearing, and then the Caps have 48 hours to decide whether to match.
Did they change the rule? As noted, in other comments, it used to be up to 48 hours to issue the award and then if the amount was over the walkaway threshold, the team had 48 hours more to decide whether or not to accept the award. I hadn’t seen any indication that they changed this rule. The only thing I saw was TEB post the August 6 date in a blog entry, but I assumed that was a mistake based on the arbitration hearing window being July 20 – August 4 and therefore if a hearing was held on August 4, the 48 hour window would be August 6.
Also, with the one player to make it to arbitration this year, Winnik with Phoenix, the award appeared to follow the timeline as outlined in the CBA (the version available.)
Yeah, I was basing my “August 6” on Tarik’s post. That’ll learn me.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jul 28, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Arbiter...
…is the correct term for the person making the decision. During the hearing, he or she is addressed as Mr. Arbitrator (in all cases, no matter the sex of the arbitrator).
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jul 28, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ve been in a non-sports arbitration and the person who is making the decision is Mr. Arbitrator (I was presenting an exhibit for the company I worked for at the time) An arbitration hearing is a brutal process, and you cannot make a mistake during the presentation. There are no do-overs. If you make a mistake in the presentation, then the other side can argue that your side doesn’t have the facts correct. It’s a very high-pressure argument with facts presented to support opinions…
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jul 28, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
he or she is addressed as Mr. Arbitrator (in all cases, no matter the sex of the arbitrator).
But you have to admit there would be a real style to “Madam Arbitratrix”
by Gould Old Days on Jul 28, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Style indeed. But if there is something that is 100% substance, 0%style it is an Arbitration hearing.
It’s kinda they exact opposite of (I still can’t believe this) Mike Knuble’s musical choce Lady Gaga who is 0% substance and 100% style (well… ok, it’s a stretch there too…)
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jul 28, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh
And I bet $1,368,750.00
(a 50% raise)
by Scott in Shaw on Jul 28, 2009 10:43 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Salary isn’t a measure of value per se – let’s not forget Nylander’s contract is for more than everyone other than Ovechkin this coming season.
The fact that Shultz isn’t eligible for arbitration is the biggest reason his salary in 09-10 will be what it is.
It is a measure of market value though. (Admittedly, it isn’t necessarily a great measuring stick). It seems tough for me to understand why Schultz accepts his QO and Juice goes on to artibration and is expected to get 2x as much.
Schultz’s contract really isn’t a measure of market value, though, since the salaries for non-arbitration guys are based on their previous salary and nothing else.
So why did Schultz accept his QO? If he hadn’t accepted it, nobody would have picked him up because he would have been too expensive?
He’s not arbitration-eligible… He didn’t really have a choice if he wanted to play next year.
by Murshawursha on Jul 28, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Because he had no bargaining power. If he doesn’t take the QO his options are (1) hope for an offer sheet that’s probably not coming (2) go play in another league or (3) keep fighting for a higher salary that’s unlikely to come since the team can actually now sign him for less than the QO.
Not really. Schultz could probably get a much better arb. award than Jurcina if he were eligible.
Non arb. eligible guys aren’t going to get fair market value so easily, depending on how you define the term. Either they get underpaid because they don’t have the leverage (not superstars), or they’re overpaid because of the threat of offer sheets or whatnot (the superstars).
Grrr J.P.
You knew we all had to click on the Ovechkin/Sheep thing!
As for Jurcina: He probably gets about $1.32M, and the Caps walk away from it. He goes on to join Nylander and Jagr in Omsk.
And a mention of Guy Charron, the hardest luck player in NHL history. He played the most career regular season games without having ever played in a Playoff Game. Olli Jokinen was coming close to beating him for that, but that changed last year when Calgary made it to the post-season.
Let's go Caps!
As for Jurcina: He probably gets about $1.32M, and the Caps walk away from it. He goes on to join Nylander and Jagr in Omsk.
I’d be very surprised to see the Caps would walk away from that, even if they could. But if Jurcina become a UFA, he’ll have NHL options.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see them walk if Jurcina gets more than Erskine. Jurcina is, at best a 5th or 6th defenseman on most teams, but on the Caps he’s behind Poti, Green, Pothier, Alzner, Erskine and arguably Schulz and Carlson. On a bad team, he might be defenseman 4 or 5, but on the Caps he’s no better than 6th, and paying over $1M for a sixth defenseman isn’t necessary, especially when they have that in Schultz for under $800K.
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jul 28, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
But why just give an asset away for nothing when you don’t have to? Why not hold him and trade him for something, even if it’s a fifth round draft pick?
What if no one wants him for a fifth? Not saying it’s likely, but possible. If there’s any chance no one will take him, is it worth taking the risk that you’ll be stuck with him.
Seriously, if it comes down to keeping him and trading him for a fifth or letting him walk, I’d probably let him go and save the hassle. Which is probably why I’m not a GM. I totally understand not letting him go for nothing, but when the asset in question is a low pick, I’m not sure it’s worth fighting over. It’d be a different story if it was a 1st or a 2nd, IMO.
All that said, I really do hope Jurcina is wearing a Caps jersey next season.
by Murshawursha on Jul 28, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
is it worth taking the risk that you’ll be stuck with him.
Yes. And there’s always waivers.
And why is a 5th round pick not worth the hassle? You never know who you’ll find there.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
What if no one wants him for a fifth? Not saying it’s likely, but possible. If there’s any chance no one will take him, is it worth taking the risk that you’ll be stuck with him.
If no one wants to give you anything for him and you’ve decided you’re better off without him, you can still waive him.
Seriously, if it comes down to keeping him and trading him for a fifth or letting him walk, I’d probably let him go and save the hassle. Which is probably why I’m not a GM. I totally understand not letting him go for nothing, but when the asset in question is a low pick, I’m not sure it’s worth fighting over.
But if you’re the GM, that’s your job. To give away an asset for nothing because you don’t feel like putting in the work means you’re not doing your job and the team should find someone else who will (that said, I duly note the ‘Which is probably why I’m not a GM’ caveat’).
Fair enough, I didn’t think about waivers.
I guess the only argument that could still be presented for walking would be that if he does end up in Hershey, Ted is still signing a $1.5mil+ check for an guy who’s been exiled to the minors. Thankfully, he doesn’t seem like the kind of owner that would penny-pinch like that.
by Murshawursha on Jul 28, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
penny pinch or million pinch?
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jul 28, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Juice would make it through waivers unless the owners of some of the bad teams are seriously “million pinching”. Juice is NHL caliber, certainly.
We’re still paying half his salary in that case, aren’t we?
by Murshawursha on Jul 28, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
If he gets too large a number, then you won’t get a 5th for him…
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jul 28, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
See above – there’s a minimum ($1.57m) that the arbiter has to rule for before the team can walk.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Ah, thanks… didn’t know.
A shame really. Maybe he can be part of a package with Nylander to Omsk anyway…
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jul 28, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
walsha…
In Jurcina arb hearing now. We just finished our presentation, waiting for club to begin.
walsha…
Sorry not updating, club just finished laughing
walsha…
Now arbitrator is laughing – not a good sign
walsha…
Club finished – said “all he said…bullsh*t”
walsha…
Why is arbitrator nodding?
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Jul 28, 2009 11:19 AM EDT reply actions 9 recs
walsha: uh oh, club brought in 26 panes of glass from kettler that jurcina broke…deduction city
Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*
*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night
by Hooks Orpik on Jul 28, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I wonder how many goals he could score in a season if he put 2,3 shots on net a night. He has such a wicked heavy shot.
Don’t know if he’d be that many, but his plus/minus and goals-created would go through the relative roof somewhere around Chara’s head
by red army line on Jul 28, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
If I were Jurcina...
…and I found out my agent was Twittering during an arbtiration hearing, I’d find a new agent after the hearing.
Walsh better be careful. While there’s no such thing as “Contempt of Arbitration”, arbitrators are human, and if there is an issue with leaks in the arbitration, it could affect the outcome. It probably shouldn’t, but arbitrators are human…
Let's go Caps!
no kidding. Agents twittering during hearings don’t seem to be real focused on the meat of the hearing to me.
Not to mention how insulted the arbitrator would be.
"You will remember the night you were struck by the sight of [18] thousand fists in the air" -Disturbed
maybe he’s twittering during 5 minute breaks? But still, I’d want my agent focused, using those 5 minutes to make sure everything is in order, not sending out tweets.
maybe he’s twittering during 5 minute breaks? But still, I’d want my agent focused, using those 5 minutes to make sure everything is in order, not sending out tweets.
I just don’t think that these tweets have anything to do with representing his client in this arbitration.
Unless…he’s advertizing his client’s services…elsewhere.
JP, next time you ask Walsh a question you should ask him why Jurcina isn’t listed as a client in the http://www.octagonhockey.com client list and why he isn’t included in his own list of clients “His clients include some of the top stars in the NHL today including Martin Havlat, Marc-Andre Fleury, Patrik Elias, Miroslav Satan, Scott Hartnell, Petr Sykora, Pierre-Marc Bouchard, Milan Michalek and top young players David Perron, Derick Brassard and Michael Frolik among others.”
by zephyr on Jul 28, 2009 11:48 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ouch!
Jurcina not listed but top talent like Miroslav Satan, Peter Sykora and Milan Michalek is… wow.
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jul 28, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Satan was sort of a big name back with the Isles, wasn’t he? And Sykora has a Stanley Cup ring (unless they mean this guy, in which case I kill myself if I’m Jurcina…).
Michalek I’ve never heard of though.
by Murshawursha on Jul 28, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
which shouldn’t factor in since Erskine was a pending UFA but who knows what ends up happening.
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jul 28, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Tampa Bay to buy out Propsal?
If the buyout goes through, then Tampa will have “a salary cap hit of $1.167 for the next six seasons,”
ouch!
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
That doesn’t make any sense. He makes 3.5 a year right now and it’s not like the team is blossoming with talent. Why would they want to pay 2 million less to just not have him around.
speculation is that they are looking at adding Tanguay
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jul 28, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Because Tampa Bay is a sad, sad shell of a franchise run by two idiots?
by Murshawursha on Jul 28, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Or, They need that $2 million for more defensemen… I bet we can dump Jurcina on them after his hearing.
by Murshawursha on Jul 28, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Toronto is paying Darcy Tucker a million a year for the next six years from his buyout
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Jul 28, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I want a job...
…where I get paid a million a year for six years to do nothing…
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jul 28, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Wanted to try to make some sense of this so I looked up the SBN tampa blog. Here is the link to the article on this: http://www.rawcharge.com/2009/7/28/966136/vaclav-prospals-tenure-with-tampa
It’s worth reading because it makes this seem even sillier (to me)
That thud you just heard...
was the arbiter’s jaw hitting the table when he saw the youtube feed of Jurcina’s hand pass/assist IN THE DEFENSIVE ZONE against the Pens.
Can the Caps get punitive damages for that?
The numbers so far
JP – $1.325m
DMG – I’ll say 1,687,000
kcfatts – $1.275
Gould Old Days – $1.250 Million.
Sombrero Guy – $1.3m
Yoshietree – $1,085,500
zephyr – $1.100m
The Peerless – $1.445 million.
Bald Pollack – $1.3m
boutros23 – $1.35m
gotsparkly – $1.39
gfcapsfan – $1.2 million
brs03 – $1.475.
Laich – $1.435
YvonLabresMoustache – $1.5, and the team walks away from it
jakeshapiro – $1.26 million.
meatball20 – $1,575
Fauxrumors – $1.75
DrinkingPartner – $1.59m
Fehr and Balanced – 1.65 mil.
Scott in Shaw – $1,368,750.00
MikeL-Caps – $1.32M, and the Caps walk away from it.
DC FURY – I’m guessing he gets in the area of 1.3 and only because of the Erskin deal.
bigonetimer – $1.4M
Apologies if I missed anyone.
by EmilyB on Jul 28, 2009 1:06 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Mine’s correct, but the Caps can’t walk from 1.32M… so instead it’s on to the waiver wire with him at that price…
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jul 28, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually Fehr & Balanced said 1.4. I’m the one who said 1.65, I’m hoping Yoshietree winds up being right.
Are we doing “closest wins” or “price is right rules”?
Because if it’s price is right rules, shapiro, you’re a jerk
by Gould Old Days on Jul 28, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Apparently, if you put something between angled brackets, SBNation eliminates it. So shapiro, please pretend that you saw the clever emoticon I added indicating that i was kidding.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 28, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
juice arb
Gimme 1.285M. GMGM will make sure the arbitrator knows that the salary cap is expected to plateau/drop in upcoming years, making reference salaries from 2005-2008 inflated as comparables. Further, they will be sure to emphasize that despite playing with players several years his junior, he remains a 3rd pairing D-man, indicating the unlikelihood of him moving up the pecking order.
by ProfessorShutOut on Jul 28, 2009 1:42 PM EDT reply actions
Gimme 1.285M. GMGM will make sure the arbitrator knows that the salary cap is expected to plateau/drop in upcoming years, making reference salaries from 2005-2008 inflated as comparables.
The following are specifically noted as inadmissible:
(I) The financial condition of the Club or the League;
(J) References to a Club’s Upper or Lower Limit, or to the
Players’ Share;
(K) Any salary arbitration award issued in 2005-2006;
But Arbitrators are human, and I think the state of the economy really is going to affect things whether it’s supposed to or not.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 28, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think that necessarily true – the arbitrator’s basically looking at comparable players and seeing what they’re making and deciding where Juice fits in and I don’t think it’s too hard to do that without considering the economy, especially when you’re talking about a short time frame.
In any event, the team won’t be mentioning it, though.
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