Thursday Caps Clips: Fedorov Wanted to Stay, But...
by J.P. on Jul 23, 2009 7:00 AM EDT
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Your savory breakfast links:
- Sergei Fedorov: ""To be honest, I wanted to sign a new contract with Washington. But the management did not offer me anything certain." And by "certain," he means "close to what I could earn in Russia." [Examiner.com]
- Evgeni Malkin: "I don't know who the Capitals signed. But Fedorov and [Viktor] Kozlov are serious losses." I'll cut him some slack on not following the NHL transaction pages too closely, given what he has been otherwise occupied with. [Puck Daddy]
- Vogs gives Brent Johnson a fitting send off. [Dump n' Chase]
- George James Malik, however, doesn't ("the goaltender best known as 'Sid Abel's grandson' is a bit harsh for a guy who's 126th all-time in wins), but only because Johnny isn't a Wings fan. [Snapshots]
- Johnson wasn't the Pens' first choice to back up Marc-Andre Fleury. Martin Gerber was. Seriously. [PensBurgh]
- More from Mike Knuble's first trip to Kettler. [Capitals Insider]
- Here's a good look at what the Bears roster might look like this fall. [Hershey Bears Hockey]
- The Caps will remain on 1500 AM for the upcoming season. [D.C. Sports Bog]
- Joe Finley's partner-in-crime got smacked down by UND, who suspended him for a minimum of two games, reduced his scholarship money, and sent him to counseling. Oh, and apparently "alcohol was involved" in the incident. You don't say. [Grand Forks Herald, Star Tribune and Puck Daddy's take on the incident]
- In case you missed it, Dmitri Orlov will play in the KHL this season. [@dchesnokov]
- The Caps have renewed their affiliation with South Carolina of the ECHL for 2009-10. [Capitals.com]
- When the NHL selected the Flyers as the Bruins' New Year's Day opponent, they passed over at least three better choices, including the Caps. [New England Hockey Journal]
- On this date back in 1981 the Caps traded forward Mark Lofthouse to Detroit for Al Jensen. Jensen had a franchise-best .644 winning percentage and is third among Caps goalies in career wins with 94.
- Finally, Happy 40th Birthday to both Dmitri Khristich and Andrew Cassels.
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Of course Malkin would say that, because they’re his fellow Russians. We’ll see what he says after the first game. Until then, pffff.
I don’t begrudge Feds the move to Russia. The move is a pity, but it’s right for him and it’s right for the Caps, IMHO. I wish him all the best in Russia, and we move on.
Cool on the affiliation – I guess it’s just one year. Do we know anything about how stability of affiliations affects prospect development?
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
I would have love to have kept Feds, but the money freed up after he left allowed GMGM to sign both Knuble AND Morrison. Even in leaving, he helped the team.
If anyone was wondering why Feds is so concerned about making as much money as he can after a long a lucrative NHL career, here’s your answer.
Yeah, I felt bad about my snark when I saw that article soon thereafter.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I don’t know about stability per se, but it’s great to see the Caps now affiliated with two great organizations. It’s not all that long ago that the team didn’t take this kind of thing seriously enough and burned a lot of bridges. There has been some very solid relationship building these last few years.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 23, 2009 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know how much stability at the ECHL level helps but the continuity from the AHL to the NHL is a huge factor. Now it’s pretty common for teams to have the same systems in the AHL as the NHL so players are more prepared when they were called up, it hasn’t always been like that. I think DET and BUF were among the first teams to start doing that and they obviously had a lot of success with it so everyone followed.
It looks like Khristich stole Mike Foligno’s helmet
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Jul 23, 2009 7:19 AM EDT reply actions
I miss the Jofa Helmets…those things were badass. Seemed like every big superstar wore those
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Jul 23, 2009 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions
First two seasons (2004) I played I wore one of those… Only person I knew that had one.
by Murshawursha on Jul 23, 2009 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Say Buh-bye to CBo . . .
This from “GregM” at HersheyBearsHockey blog: “Bourque though will either make the Caps out of camp….unlikely in my opinion…or be traded or sent down. He, unlike Aucoin, will probably get picked up by someone if he is sent down. Sure he might slip through but I would be surprised if a team doesn’t take a chance on him.”
Why is that saying goodbye? Bourque would have to seriously disappoint in camp to not make the team. GMGM’s not going to lose him to waivers, especially not when he should have had a roster spot last season but GMGM didn’t give it to him because he wasn’t going to lose Fehr to waivers.
Bourque is either on the Caps as at worst the 13th forward, or traded. No chance he gets waived.
On this date back in 1981 the Caps traded forward Mark Lofthouse to Detroit for Al Jensen. Jensen had a franchise-best .644 winning percentage and is third among Caps goalies in career wins with 94.
Al Jensen and Pat Riggin were a pretty good tandem for a nice long while there, with both of them carrying a lot of the load. It’s a reminder that for all the gnashing of teeth, having both Varlamov and Theodore on this team may be a good thing.
In Olie Kolzig news (sort of)...
I remember he had the little dog on the back of his mask…RIP
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Jul 23, 2009 8:38 AM EDT reply actions
Good and bad with Orlov?
Its good that Dmitri Orlov will be playing in the KHL next season as it will give the kid some good competition to go against. Then again it also could be not so good if the kid is convinced to stay beyond this season (for the higher(tax free) salary, etc.
I find sometimes it's easy to be myself
sometimes I find it's better to be somebody else
Why is it good? Why is the competition he’s facing in the KHL better for his development than what he’d play against in, say, the OHL? (The OHL draft was in May.) Why are KHL coaches better for his development than Canadian juniors coaches? And what about the much-discussed… er, training and health-related issues in the KHL?
I don’t know that you’re wrong. But…
He wouldn’t have been drafted in May, he would have been drafted after the NHL draft in the CHL import draft, and he would have been taken by Quebec. He didn’t want to play there though.
The KHL is undeniably better than the CHL in terms of quality of competition. It may sound cliche, but he’s playing against men, not boys. The only impetus to come over is to learn the NHL-style rink (which is probably why he wants to play in the AHL) or if he’s clearly not getting playing time.
He wasn’t going to play in Quebec so that’s a moot point. If the Caps aren’t ready to burn a year and use a contract on yet another young Dman for the Bears, better to let Orlov keep playing at a higher level than to try to force him to take a step down and no pay in the Q.
I was just using the OHL as a fill-in, but I didn’t know that the import draft was after the NHL draft. Interesting.
And I agree that burning a year on his entry-level deal in the AHL when he’s 18 isn’t the way to go. But I’m not sure that the CHL doesn’t provide better facilities or coaching than the KHL. From what I’ve read it really depends on the specific KHL club: Some are pretty luxe, some are pretty spartan.
Yeah. The May draft is only for players in the OHL’s designated drawing areas in the US and Canada (the cut up the territory and each league gets a piece). Europeans are drafted later, and that’s really more of a “we’ll negotiate with them to make sure they come over, then draft them” in most cases. The Remparts had apparently been trying to get Orlov to commit but he wouldn’t.
How can he make that agreement with just one team? He wasn’t a top 5 pick so he really didn’t know where he was going. How could the Remparts say “we are looking at you later in the draft, will you play?” It just doesn’t make sense that way.
What doesn’t make sense? They probably figured he was slated to go somewhere where they might be able to pick him, so they talked to him and he agreed to join them. Another team could have taken him, but if they didn’t already talk to him and if he wasn’t receptive to joining them (if he really wanted to go to the Remparts, for example) then they would have wasted a pick because he would just stay in Russia. Much of the time you’re only drafting guys once you’ve already gotten it settled that they’re going to join your club. That’s true for most of the people picked ahead of him as well.
now if only someone had alerted the minnesota timberwolves this was a smart way to do business..
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 23, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
They did draft another point guard ;)
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Jul 23, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
If I am the GM of Chicoutimi and I know that Quebec has a talented Russian already lined up I draft that guy ahead of them. If I can’t convince him to sign, at least Quebec doesn’t have him. If the Caps knew Kugryshev was going to Quebec then you figure the rest of the North American hockey establishment, including the entire Q, knew as well. It doesn’t make sense under any application of game theory.
while i avoided game theory in college, i do play a lot of fantasy sports and i have stolen another team’s RB handcuff a few times.
the problem with your premise is that the GM of chicoutimi will need to see equivalent value in taking a player away from quebec as he does in adding a player to his own team. and i’d surmise that equivalent value comes later in the draft than kugryshev’s true value, if that makes sense.
moreover, i don’t see how it costs the remparts anything to put out those feelers. ask, if the player says “no,” then factor that into where you slot him on your draft board. if you play it close the vest you risk wasting your pick altogether.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 23, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
If I am the GM of Chicoutimi and I know that Quebec has a talented Russian already lined up I draft that guy ahead of them. If I can’t convince him to sign, at least Quebec doesn’t have him.
But that only helps you when it comes to playing against Quebec, whereas drafting a player for yourself helps you every game. Maybe you lose a point or two head-to-head against Quebec but you probably lose much more than that by failing to make your team stronger with the addition of another player.
To respond to you and Natty, there is usually only one import player per team, and if they play 2-3 years that means you aren’t even bringing in an import player every year. That means in each import draft you probably aren’t getting anything anyway. If you know that Kugryshev is going to Quebec you know that a) he’s willing to play in the Q, and b) they are fairly certain to get something out of this year’s draft. Unless you know that you have a guy locked up, why take a risk on some other random player. If you know you still have to do the hard part (convincing the player to come over) then you may as well do that with Kugryshev instead of taking a flyer on someone else. When Kugryshev was drafted it was officially reported that he was going to Quebec, not speculated that he might go, or was willing to go. I don’t see how that degree of certainty can be reported before the draft.
do you know if there is a limit of international players per team, as with the MLS? or the teams are just limited by the number of roster spots?
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 23, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
this sounds like a question for james mirtle.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 23, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
(the whole kugryshev situation i mean.)
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 23, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
By that logic, how is an import player worth enough for you to bother poaching them. If your reasoning is that the player is valuable enough to the other team, then it would follow that the draft pick is basically just as valuable to your own team to pursue a player with.
Might as well take the chance that a player is going to help your team than take a chance that losing a player is going to hurt another team, considering that poaching would breed some ill will and your team’s success is more important than another team’s lack of success.
By that logic, how is an import player worth enough for you to bother poaching them
Not a valid logical conclusion. 7th round picks have almost no chance of making the NHL but teams still make those picks. You may only have a 50% chance of finding a player in the CHL import draft but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth it. A guy that has already agreed to come over is more than 50% likely to come over, regardless of which team convinced him. The value is in knowing the guy is coming to the CHL, since most of the Europeans stay over there. Once you know a guy is committed to coming over-seas then it makes sense to poach, unless you also have a guy lined up to come over. It seems unlikely that every single Q team would have a guy lined up going into the draft, to say nothing of teams like Kitchener and London that looooooooove to poach. If one of those teams gets a hint that a guy wants to play in the CHL they may just poach him based on that.
Yes, it is a logical conclusion. If you have belief that the import pick is worth enough for you to bother poaching another team’s player, then it’s worth enough for you to make an effort to find a player yourself. If you don’t believe the import draft is worth taking seriously in terms of picking players, then why do you think it would matter enough to the other team’s well being for you to poach their players? Either way you’re assigning a value to an import draft pick, and no matter how you slice it the value of helping your team should be higher than the value of hurting one other team.
Why doesn’t it make sense that they would all have players lined up? Or, at least, most of them?
Moreover, why wouldn’t a team have more than one player lined up as maybes? If that’s the case poaching loses a great deal of its effectiveness, because then they just go with plan B.
I’m not saying there’s never a reason to poach, but obviously it doesn’t happen all that much. It’s clearly not worth it in a great number of situations. The only way poaching really makes great sense is for players that are very good AND willing to come over for basically any team, and those guys would be top picks anyways.
The CHL import draft doesn’t just pick on talent, like the NHL draft. Ovechkin and Malkin weren’t top CHL import draft picks, I don’t think either were even drafted. That is because the big question in the Import draft is whether they will come to North America. There are plenty of talented players to pick from, not that many that are willing to come over. If you know a guy is talented and willing to come over (Kugryshev) then why wouldn’t you pick him over a guy that is merely talented? It’s a free riding problem; if one team does the convincing and publicizes it, then they expose themselves to poaching.
Why doesn’t it make sense that they would all have players lined up? Or, at least, most of them?
Because every year most teams don’t come up with a player that ends up contributing to the team in the Import draft. If most teams had guys locked up you would think just about every team would get a player every year, or at least be carrying the 2 player maximum. They don’t, because not every team can lock the players in. There is a high degree of risk and knowing a guy has already agreed to play in the CHL decreases that risk.
Of course it isn’t based on talent. Teams mostly pick the players that they know are going to come play for them, and most of the time the order is known fairly well ahead of time.
There are plenty of players that are picked without solid assurances, just because their talent is high up there (mostly younger guys I guess). There are plenty of really good guys that were drafted high this year but declined to come over. But it probably depends on talent level as to whether you’re going to risk it (hence “most of them”).
That’s a waste of a draft pick, when you could be convincing a player to come play for your team.
If you really wanted to screw Quebec you’d be doing everything you could to steal their players away from them by convincing them to come over for your team.
That’s just how it goes.
If you really wanted to screw Quebec you’d be doing everything you could to steal their players away from them by convincing them to come over for your team.
That’s what I’m suggesting. I don’t see how you don’t get that. You can’t poach any Canadian or American kids because of the draft here so that leaves the import draft. If you know they already have a deal with a guy, but don’t have his rights yet, then why not draft him. They’ve already done the hard work (convince him to come to the CHL) and there is nothing Quebec can do if you draft him. If you are looking at drafting Kugryshev, who has demonstrated a willingness to come to the Q, or some other European who you’d have to start negotiating with from scratch, why not just draft Kugryshev? It keeps Quebec from getting him, and it gives you a player that is more likely to come over. Let’s say normally an import player has 50% chance of coming over, but guys with deals before the draft have an 80% chance of coming over. If you poach Kugryshev then you go from .5 to .8 probability of having a player help your team, and you certainly take a quality player off of Quebec. Why would Quebec, or any other team publicize their deals with players in this scenario? How could it be definitively reported that Kugryshev was with Quebec at the 2008 NHL draft if the CHL import draft hadn’t even happened yet. Until Quebec drafted him they didn’t have his rights, no matter the pre-existing understanding.
I mean you’re negotiating ahead of time to get him to agree to come over for you as well (or instead). You’re not taking him and praying he changes his mind.
If it gets to the point where there are solid reports that the player is going to come over for a specific team, chances are they’ve already either been wooed by other teams and made their decision (in which case taking him isn’t going to change that very likely) or there wasn’t much interest in him.
If the chances of him coming over before being wooed by teams is 50%, and he chooses Quebec, then the chances of him playing for you (not Quebec) would go down, not up, because they already turned you down. It may be 80, 90, 100% for Quebec, but for you it’s probably closer to 20,10, or 0%. All you’re doing is taking an asset away from another team without helping yourself at all, when you could be taking the time to find someone who will play for you.
I don’t doubt it happens in some cases, but it obviously didn’t happen with Kugryshev. It’s probably less prevalent since most picks are known ahead of time moreso. There’s really not much room, or reason, for last minute surprises in terms of poaching and whatnot.
Or, to wrap it all up, if poaching is such a good idea then why doesn’t it happen all the time? Clearly there are drawbacks to it that make it less than the desirable course of action, at least for most teams.
Most of the guys that come from Europe do so to acclimate to the smaller rinks. Maybe Quebec wooed them with their beautiful city, but if another team drafted them and it was their only choice then I think they’d probably take it anyway. I guess it depends on the player, and I agree you only do it if you think the guy may play for you and you don’t already have a guy wrapped up. I’m not suggesting teams do it just to hurt another team; but between hurting a rival and having a higher expectation that they are willing to come to North America it seems like it would be better than random selection.
I’m confused as to why the Remparts were having discussions with him. They picked 43rd and you’d have to think if Orlov were willing to go to the CHL he’d be picked higher than that in the import draft, right?
Not really, not if the player agrees to come specifically for a certain team. Sometimes they get picked anyways in hopes that they can be convinced to come over, but mostly the deals for getting them to come to a specific team are done before the draft. It’s a lot closer to free agency I’d venture to say, the draft is simply a way to limit how many players they can “sign.” Or how many players they can take risks on if the risk is worth it without an agreement in place.
Another KHL question
This applies to guys beyond Orlov… but what happens if/when the KHL has in-season bankruptcies or if/when clubs shut down? Are those players stuck on the sidelines for the rest of the season? Or can they go somewhere?
It’s probably not an issue with $65-70/barrel oil, but it probably is if oil goes to $50/.
My understanding is that players in the KHL are contracted to the individual teams rather than the league and thus that if the team were to go out of business they would become free agents, in the same way as if the company you or I worked for went out of business we would be unemployed.
My guess is the KHL would try and keep the better players in the league via a contraction draft, though.
Right, but… last year when (at least) one team didn’t make payroll — Ray Emery’s Mytishchi Atlant, I think — didn’t the league keep the team together, Coyotes-style (ha ha ha)?
And wasn’t there one team where guys refused to suit up because of payroll issues and the league forced them to even though the team was clearly underwater? Point being: Who cares if this happens to a 34 year-old, but I’d think the Caps/other NHL teams wouldn’t want it happening to ‘their’ 18-year-olds. The KHL is the most, er, uncertain league in the world…
I agree with the concern but I think Orlov is only going to be there for one year. If his team goes under this year the Caps will probably help Orlov find somewhere to play then bring him to Hershey next year. I think a lot of GMs probably do share your concern, just by looking at the number of Russians that have been (or haven’t been) drafted in the last few years. The lack of transfer agreement gets a lot of credit for that but I think these ancillary issues we have discussed the last couple days certainly factor in as well.
And most of the quality players, i.e. anyone the NHL would be considering, get traded before the team goes under. They have the largest contracts so the team that has financial trouble wants to move them; and they have star power and talent so other KHL teams want them. Plus the KHL wants to save face and now lose their best players to the NHL anymore than already happens.
It’s worth mentioning that these stories and worse could be stories of the NHL starting up 70 years or so ago…
by Gould Old Days on Jul 23, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Gould hits the nail on the head. When leagues in any sport start up they aren’t exactly top notch to start off with. KHL is a true professional league of men as compared to Canadian juniors which are certainly professionally run but its youngsters playing. Heck KHL in its short history is doing pretty well. Any young league will have finance issues. Heck older leagues have them. Orlov, in my opinion, will develop just as well playing in KHL for a year or so.
I think i’d rather have him playing against men than in Juniors, but there’s positives and negatives to both scenarios
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Jul 23, 2009 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Dovgan, Godfrey, Carlson, and Finley (if he ever moves back to D) are all going to be fighting for time in Hershey. Another rookie just makes that group too inexperienced, IMO. There is no reason to have him play in the CHL or ECHL because they are both lower competition than the KHL. I don’t know how different the coaching is, but at the very least being coached in Russian has to be an advantage over being coached in a foreign language, especially since he needed a translator in D camp.
I think the biggest factor is just that Orlov is 18. You can’t blame him or his family for wanting him to stay near home, especially since the KHL is a perfectly good option.
In fact, today is Orlov’s 18th Birthday.
by Gould Old Days on Jul 23, 2009 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Someone get that kid a Ferrari cake!
"Yes, It is a 'Beautiful Game.' It's because we see something meaningful that we hope to someday, somehow, see in ourselves."
by Bald Pollack on Jul 23, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
If we play the Rangers, the question is where will the game be?
It’d be surreal to see a winning Washington sports team at Nationals Park…
"My face is my mask."
Oops, meant to post that as a reply to “New York?”
"My face is my mask."
by Jake Shapiro on Jul 23, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Birthday boy...
Did you know that the team Khristich last played for is the team that Feds is playing for this coming season.
Also, the reason that there’s a way to put an “ear strap” in a helmet was because of Khristich. He had to put tape on the inside of his helmet to keep his ears inside it. Finally, CCM put in a couple of snaps that allowed a strap to go on there…
Let's go Caps!
Khristich without his helmet?
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Jul 23, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Happy Birthday Dima!
My younger brother’s first and favorite Capital. He thought he was cool for being from Russia. He tried to emulate Khristich’s style and his favorite play was a penalty shot where he just skated straight at goal, never touching the puck then casually whipping it under the bar from 40 feet out.
(My bro didn’t ask to be called Alfred E. Neuman like some on the team called Dima tho)
Shame he seemed to lose a little heart later in his NHL career. But the fact he’s one of the few Caps who left and was brought back says something about what he was to the organization in his prime.
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Florida
|
54 | 26 | 17 | 11 | 63 |
|
Washington
|
54 | 28 | 21 | 5 | 61 |
|
Winnipeg
|
57 | 26 | 25 | 6 | 58 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
54 | 24 | 24 | 6 | 54 |
|
Carolina
|
56 | 20 | 25 | 11 | 51 |
(updated 2.12.2012 at 3:50 AM EST)
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