Solving That Second Line Center Problem
by Gould Old Days on Jun 26, 2009 11:32 AM EDT
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PrintI've been giving a lot of thought to the second line center position, which I think is the team's most glaring need this offseason. Here are some players who I think could be reasonably available that could fit the bill.
#1 Patrick Marleau
See my previous post on this.
#2 Marc Savard
Why I like him
Just a fantastic year last year. He really put it all together after a few good years before that. He's an all-around player now.
Why it makes cap sense
The Broons are hard up against the cap this year, and Savard's 5 M for 09-10 may be the easiest salary to move. He's only signed for one more year, so he's a great fit for the Caps. But with the Caps and the Bruins battling for 1 and 2 all year this past year, I doubt they'd trade Savard to Washington. It could really come back to bite them.
Why I like him
I've been a Richards fan for years. Richards is 29, right in the middle of his peak. But his numbers have dropped off a bit, mostly due to injury and the poor play of the Stars. He knows the Southeast and has a Cup. On the Caps, I think he's good for 25 goals and 50 assists easy.
Why it makes cap sense
Richards is signed to a massive contract -- 7.8 Million per year for the next two years. That makes him a very tight fit. The team would probably have to offload Nylander and Theodore to make this work. And the move would tighten the budget for 2010-11, when Backstrom and Semin need to get paid. On the other hand, he's a true star and may be worth it.
I think Dallas may be down on Richards because of his injury and because his numbers have been down. And Ribeiro had a great year, so Richards may be expendable. But Dallas would certainly demand a lot from the Caps for Richards. This is one of the boldest moves the Caps could make.
#4 Jason Arnott
Why I like him
Big body who plays big, defensively sound, scores lots of goals. He's a finisher and exactly the veteran presence the Caps need.
Why he makes cap sense
Signed for 4.5 Million for each of the next two years. That makes 10-11 a challenge, but not a huge one. I'd snap Arnott up in an instant. Nashville's nowhere near the cap, but they may have other money concerns, so this might be possible, but I doubt they'd move him. It would probably be easier to get Legwand, but Legwand is signed for a much longer deal and is not as good a player.
McPhee says he ain't going after UFAs, and I believe him, but for completeness here they are
#5 Henrik Sedin
Why I like him
Simply put, the best center available as a UFA. A creative playmaker who gives a steady point per game.
How he could make cap sense
He probably doesn't, unless the market really falls apart. He's just going to be too expensive. But hey, anything's possible.
#6 Saku Koivu
Why I like him
Very creative playmaker who is also solid defensively. Very good veteran leadership. But he seems to be nearing the end of his career. There's not much tread left on those tires. Could end up being Sergei Fedorov lite -- with less of everything Sergei brought.
How he could make cap sense
Koivu is a UFA. At 3 Million or under, he'd probably be a good deal.
#7 Olli Jokinen
Why I like him (kind of)
Great scoring numbers. Jokinen paired with Semin could be really beautiful hockey. But he's untested in real pressure situations, although 5 points in 6 playoff games this past year ain't bad (it ain't great, either).
How he could make cap sense
Jokinen at age 30 will make more than Koivu at this point. He'll probably demand and get about 5 Million. Which is probably too rich for the Caps. The Caps should be willing to move mountains to find the budget for Savard or Marleau or Richards or Arnott. Jokinen, not so much. But if the market truly falls apart and Jokinen is available for 3.5 Million or so, that's a fair price and he could help this team.
#8 Mats Sundin
See the blurb on Saku Koivu. Will demand more money than Koivu. And I'd rather have Koivu right now. Sundin will give you better numbers, but Koivu would be better in the room. Backstrom's the number 1 center. Koivu would respect that; Sundin is a prima donna.
If this FanPost is written by someone other than one of the blog's editors, the opinions expressed in it do not necessarily reflect those of this blog or SB Nation.
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I’m definitely with you on the top 4 of your list. I also have been a big Richards fan although it looks too tough with the cap. Savard would be great and further the Crosby haterade with the Caps. The Marleau post was awesome and I’d love to see him here. But the Arnott call was something I hadn’t thought of. Arnott’s crazy, he hunts during the season and is a great grizzled vet.
The last four though, I’m not really excited about. The last four would either make too much or could bring cancer into the locker room (I’m here all night folks).
The easiest way to clear room for Richards would obviously be to dump both Theo and Nylander somehow. But if that happens, there’s more than enough room (big if). Even if you dump just one of them and also lose Clark or Pothier it could be done.
by Gould Old Days on Jun 26, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Savard has a NTC, says the Boston Globe. And the Globe hinted he’d only waive it for teams in Ontario.
Haven’t read the article but simple logic suggests that probably isn’t the entire picture. Savard played for the top team in the East last season, both ONT teams are picking in the top 10 tonight. Savard is in a contract year and playing on the Caps he would have a legitimate shot at 100 points. Not a bad feather for a UFA C to have going into negotiations.
Jokinen at 3.5 would be a massive paycut (based on assumed value). I don’t see that happening.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 26, 2009 12:01 PM EDT reply actions
Didn’t realize he’d signed an extension. My free agent list is out of date (I almost put Tim Connolly on too before I realized he’s signed an extension)
I’m not saying that’s a reasonable price for OlliJo — I’m saying that’s what he’d be worth to the Caps. Thus “if the market truly falls apart.” Mainly, I was pointing out how poor the center options are. And with OlliJo actually off the market, it’s even worse.
by Gould Old Days on Jun 26, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The UFA C’s this year are really top heavy; however, there are some really great possibilities at C who are RFA’s, (who would only be in play in a trade, not on offer sheet)
ultimately…I see the George visiting UFA’s on the wing or defense this year, not in the pivot.
from the house that Red Jesus built
Tomas Plekanec (mon) and Dave Bolland (chi) come to mind immediately. Again, these would be in trades only, as McPhee is already on record for his distate for offer sheeting RFA’s.
from the house that Red Jesus built
hmm, Dubinsky…is he ready for 2C? that IS intriguing, though of the rags’ RFA’s, Callahan is the one that I would want the most.
from the house that Red Jesus built
I’d take either of those guys. Unfortunately Naslund really helped the Rags out a lot. Yes, I do think Dubinsky is ready for 2C. He won’t need to score a ton he just needs to play both ends of the ice and pass the puck to Semin. He can do both of those things and he can PK, a significant upgrade on the offense threat of most of our PKers.
indeed. His game 1 GW on Schultz is pretty well burned into my head…
from the house that Red Jesus built
Just my opinion
- Patrick Marleau- Too soft. Semin is a better fighter.
- Marc Savard- Not available. Helped lead Boston into the playoffs, $5 for his skill set is a deal.
- Brad Richards- huge contract. nope.
- Jason Arnott- is in the twilight. Has had injury issues. Overrated.
- Henrik Sedin- The Caps are soft enough.
- Saku Koivu- His best years are behind him.
- Olli Jokinen- pass. (also not available)
- Mats Sundin – that would be throwing money away.
Anyone you think might be available who would be a better option?
by Gould Old Days on Jun 26, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you have any alternative solutions? We’re talking about squeezing in a second line center on a team with limited cap room, so the guy’s going to have some flaws.
Ok, here’s one guy. This guy fits the mold i think the second center needs. I’m taking expense into account as well. There are a few guys that would work. I’d like to see Richards out of Dallas, but He makes way more than I’d be willing to spend. So here’s my trade thought:
Nathan Horton
I’d love him, but I don’t think he’s reasonably available. He’s 24 and on a long term contract. He’s not going anywhere. It’d be like the Caps trading Backstrom.
For trade options, I think the guys who could move are veterans near the end of big deals or guys who are going to be RFAs within the next couple of offseasons.
by Gould Old Days on Jun 26, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree. A couple of prospects and a 1st round pick would bring him in. His having a long term contract works to the Caps benefit as he’s only 24. Florida needs more than what they’ve got, and if they could get 2 guys and another pick in the 1st round tonight, they might want to take that deal. If you want quality, you have to pay. I think the Caps should be playing with all the chips they’ve accumulated the last couple of years.
Florida’s done being speculative for the time being; they’re not going to trade away a young player with a good contract at an important position without getting roster players in return.
Yeah, I didn’t think so. So who out there fits the same bill as Horton?
How about Nylander, Flash, Fehr, a prospect and our 1st round pick? And a Lincoln Navigator.
And remember, I’m saying he fits the mold. WOuld you agree, then, that there is a cetain type of player that would benefit the Caps the most? I don’t see Horton and Marleau occupying the same spot interchangeably. I guess that’s what I mean.
I can make a very long list of players that would benefit the Caps a lot, but who aren’t reasonably available. Horton’s on that list. The more interesting question to me is who is actually available for trade that would fit the Caps. It has to be someone that there’s some reason their own team would move them. There’s just no reason Florida would want to move Horton.
by Gould Old Days on Jun 26, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I think everyone entertains all offers, except for the exceptional cornerstones. Horton didn’t have as good a year as he did the one before. And he’s not on the same list as Ovechkin, Malkin and Kane are. It makes no sense to trade for marginal talent when above average talent is what you need. The Caps have put themselves into a position to play at the high stakes table. That s where they have to play, I’m afraid. Theo was settling and look where that got us. The waiver wire isn’t going to do it. The time to pony up is now. Well, this off season.
I also like Brain Little. I’d like to see your list. Who else is on it?
With Waddell, there is no way you can say that Little is untouchable.
Coburn should have been untouchable…. (I know circumstances were different, no need to explain)
by Moonage Daydream on Jun 26, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
My list is above, in the fanpost. As far as RFA centers, here’s a list. I don’t see any of them as being particularly available. I could see Jiri Hudler being traded because Detroit needs cap relief, but I’m not sure he’s a good option at 2nd line center. But I definitely don’t see Atlanta trading Little unless someone absolutely knocks their socks off. And that goes for most of the RFAs.
This is why the fanpost has the section “why it makes cap sense?” Why would the player’s current team be willing to get rid of him? It’s harder than it looks.
by Gould Old Days on Jun 26, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
One reason is future signability and accompanying dollars. If Phil Kessel, say, is on the block, it may be because Boston, stacked at Center right now, doesn’t foresee signing him to the long, high dollar extension he is eventually going to get somewhere else.
from the house that Red Jesus built
Boston is apparently after Kaberle. Kessel is the high price they’re willing to pay, apparently. I’m more excited about Kessel than Kaberle.
I think they want that 7th pick more than Kaberle, but Kessel apparently has balked at overtures made by Boston to date
from the house that Red Jesus built
It IS harder than it looks, especially when its just speculation and we’re not privy to any information that the teams discuss. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Nylander as the 2nd line center, and more emphasis put on the right wings. Nylanders contract and performance make him virtually unmovable, and the 3rd and 4th lines have Gordon and Steckel.
Off you’re list, I’d pick Richards. But I see a guy like Horcoff, and a trade with Edmonton, as more likely than taking over Richards contract.
Horcoff? He’s going to be 31 next season and he’s signed to a huge contract for the next 5 years. He’d be way harder to fit under the cap than Brad Richards. No thanks.
by Gould Old Days on Jun 26, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Horcoff is signed for 7 million next year, 6.5 million the year after.
Marleau is signed for 6.3 million next year, 0 for the year after (he’s a UFA).
So no, I don’t think Marleau is going to get more next year than Horcoff. I don’t much care what he wants. I don’t see Marleau coming back to the Caps after next year. If they trade for him, he’s a rental.
by Gould Old Days on Jun 26, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, i didn’t realize you only wanted Marleau for a year. I think they need a second line center for more than a year.
We do need a 2C long term but everyone is hoping that one of Perreault/Angus/someone else in the organization can step into that roll in a couple years.
Plus Backstrom and Semin need new contracts and the cap is expected to drop in 2010-11. A quality player with one year left on his deal is a plus right now.
only if he’s the kind of guy you want to try to resign and bring back. Otherwise, you’re in the same boat in a year. I’m just not much of a Marleau fan. The Sharks had a number of good chances to reach the cup. Marleau didn’t help them do it. He’s not a physical force, and doesn’t excel in the playoffs. The Caps are looking to go deep. I’d be surprised if they thought Marleau was the guy to help them do it.
I think you’re wrong about just about everything you say here. Worst knock on Marleau is that he’s inconsistent. But if you think he’s just bad, back it up.
by Gould Old Days on Jun 26, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
(when I say here, I mean in this one post, not the whole thread. I guess I mean to say, Marleau’s a star. Caps would be lucky to get him)
by Gould Old Days on Jun 26, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I’m not saying he’s bad. I’m saying he’s a great regular season player, but not much more than that. He doesn’t solve any of the Caps problems, other than filling a spot and putting up very good regular season numbers. I think the Caps, minus a player or two, are too soft right now, and Marleau doesn’t play physically. The team needs to get tougher and 2nd line center is a great place to start.
I understood you, I just think this is incorrect. Why do you say it?
I live in northern California. I watch the Sharks regularly. Marleau ain’t perfect, but these aren’t the things that I’d say are the problems with him. Almost the opposite.
by Gould Old Days on Jun 26, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you watch SJS v. CGY last year? Maybe Marleau didn’t beat anybody up but he took two of the hardest hits I’ve ever seen and got back up… and was the best SJS player in both of those games. I don’t think you watch enough SJS. Your opinion on Marleau is seriously misinformed.
Speaking of which…Marleau took this hit in Game Three (I think). The next game he led all players on either team in shots had an assist. The game after that he had a goal and an assist.
No, I’m not saying he’s bad. I’m saying he’s a great regular season player, but not much more than that. He doesn’t solve any of the Caps problems, other than filling a spot and putting up very good regular season numbers.
Marleau’s regular season point per game for his career is .70; in the playoffs it’s .67. His goals per game in the regular season is .32; in the playoffs it’s .40.
Some postseason’s he has been better than during that regular; some he has been worse, but that’s always going to be the case with a small sample size.
The Sharks haven’t won the Cup but that isn’t Marleau’s fault. Except for Ron Wilson’s last season Marleau has been pretty consistent. He has been the best Shark in the playoffs most years. He is one of the best skaters in the league, plays D very well, and can play C or W. I don’t see what’s not to like about him. So he doesn’t fight, big deal. That’s not his job. I’m not looking for a fighter to fill our 2C spot, I want a guy who can skate, play both ends, and play with top caliber players. Marleau does all that and brings leadership to boot.
by Rob Parker on Jun 26, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree. His leadership has always been a question. And its not about fighting, its about not being a cream puff.
I think the Caps should be looking to someone who can change the dynamic of the team slightly, who can add to what they have offensively while upping the physical quality of the team. In the top six all you have is Ovechkin. No one else plays physically, goes into traffic, or can play the corners well.
He’s a quiet guy but everyone on SJS has always said he is their leader and its his team. I’ve never heard a single guy who has been in the locker room with him say that he isn’t a good leader. Joe Thornton has been lobbying hard for him to get on Team Canada ever since he joined SJS. The cream puff comment is just baseless.
Interestingly, there aren’t a lot of centers like this right now, guys who are capable of going into the corners and doing the dirty work effectively. Finding the size and willingness to get involved physically coupled with good offensive output is tough. That’s why drafting those guys is and building from within is so important. Looking at the Caps prospects, though, I don’t see anyone like Horton. Also, with Brashear gone, the Caps are going to have to start sticking up for themselves and winning the fights. Other teams are going to start going after people, I think we all realize that. I don’t project Horton as a replacement for Brashear, I mean only that he can hold is own.
I agree with most of this but I dispute that Sundin isn’t good in the room or is a prima donna. He was by far the best player in TOR for years and he was nothing but a great leader for them. The way things ended led to a lot of bad press for him but I don’t blame it all on him. The TOR management was a freaking mess when that all went down. I don’t think he’s ever done anything to be labeled a prima donna. He still doesn’t fit our budget but he’s a good guy to have on a team.
I’d be quick to admit that his Brett Favre impression has really soured me on him, possibly unfairly. But if he wanted to take a pay cut and come here, the Caps could be a really good fit. I don’t see that happening, but hey, anything’s possible. Who knows — maybe Forsberg will unretire.
by Gould Old Days on Jun 26, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
How about Cammarelli from Calgary? Is he going to demand to much $$$$.
The difference between ORDINARY and extraORDINARY is that little "extra"
I probably should have included him for completeness. I don’t think he’d be a bad fit, just too expensive.
by Gould Old Days on Jun 27, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
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| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Florida
|
55 | 27 | 17 | 11 | 65 |
|
Washington
|
55 | 28 | 22 | 5 | 61 |
|
Winnipeg
|
57 | 26 | 25 | 6 | 58 |
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Tampa Bay
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55 | 24 | 25 | 6 | 54 |
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Carolina
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56 | 20 | 25 | 11 | 51 |
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