The Silver Lining to a Steel Cloud
by J.P. on Jun 16, 2009 12:00 PM EDT
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PrintThe Pittsburgh Penguins are Stanley Cup Champions and I couldn't be happier.
Seriously.
I mean, obviously there's one scenario that would have me a little more excited these days, but short of the Caps ending their season with a playoff win, the Pens winning it all is perhaps the best imaginable result (and if you're still waiting for a punchline, it ain't coming).
For Caps fans, the silver lining to the Pittsburgh victory is that it should focus their team in a way that another Red Wings win could not have. Had Detroit repeated as Champs, it would have been easy to be somewhat dismissive of the victory - "They've got the experience, players, coaches, etc., that it takes to win... they're the Wings; we're not the Wings."
But with Pittsburgh emerging victorious, there's no reason the feeling throughout the Caps organization should be anything but one of emboldened optimism - "They're a young, hardworking team with high-end talent and little more experience than we've got... they're the Pens; there's no reason we can't be the Pens."
In many ways, the Pens' win signals the death - or at least the suspension - of "Sid versus Alex," because, to be blunt, who cares at this point? Pitt fans shouldn't - they've got what they wanted. Caps fans shouldn't, either - they don't. As of Friday night, nothing matters except the Cup. Not Hart, Ross, Norris or Adams Trophies... nothing but the Cup. Had Detroit won, fans would still be pretending that personal achievements meant something at this point. Sid versus Alex? How about Geno - he's got the Conn Smythe, which is as close to meaningful as an individual award gets these days.
Should Alex Ovechkin win the Hart Trophy as League MVP on Thursday night, it will be nice recognition of another fantastic season. And, to be sure, if Mike Green wins the Norris Trophy as best all-around defenseman, it will be worthy of more than just a golf clap. But a win for either or both will ring at least a little hollow this time around, won't it? Even team achivements - like raising a Southeast Division banner to the rafters on Opening Night - seem a bit more awkward now, don't they (especially considering the culture in which many of these players cut their professional hockey teeth)? And if it feels that way to us as fans, how do you think it feels to the guys who played out the season with broken bones and otherwise battered bodies, only to come up a bit short?
From a slightly more detached perspective, this most recent Steel City championship serves as a lesson learned in terms of salary cap management, as the Pens were able to go out at the trade deadline and get Andy Wozniewski from the Blues Bill Guerin from the Islanders for peanuts while the Caps had to sit tight and hope that Brian Pothier and Chris Clark would be ready to contribute to a deep playoff run after lengthy layoffs. They weren't. (Then again, Detroit was a bounce or two away from a repeat and they did nothing at the deadline either.)
The bottom line here is that the Caps should be inspired and motivated by Pittsburgh's win (and perhaps for more than just the reasons mentioned above). Hell, they should blow up the picture at the top of this post and hang it in the locker room at Kettler so that every day the players see it and feel the good kind of pain - the kind that makes one work harder in December, knowing that it'll pay dividends in May.
Contrary to the proclamations of some, it is meaningful that the Penguins won the Cup, because the Caps should be able to see reflections of themselves in their closest rivals. Next year, that Cup could be theirs and that parade could be ours - there's no reason they can't be the Pens.
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Sure…the team I hate and the fans I loathe get to celebrate a title. There’s plenty of silver lining in that.
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Jun 16, 2009 12:13 PM EDT reply actions
Can you rec a post? I was thinking the same thing – If Detroit had won again it kind of gives the feeling the big dog always wins. Great, you made it through to the finals, but you’ll just get stomped by the West when you’re there. And maybe this quells the “western conference is so much better Anaheim could have taken any eastern team” meme I’ve seen in other places . . .
Now I know why you were so angry in the last thread, JP. I’d be angry, too, if I had to say, over and over, “we can to be like the Pens.” It’s enough to drive a man to the brink of insanity.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 12:17 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
oops. “we can be…” *
See, the Pens just make me nuts.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
But who'd want to be like the Pens?
I’d much rather be the Caps beating the Pens, thanks.
I think the salary cap thing is a little bit unfair given all the injuries in November and December and Pothier coming back unexpectedly. They did their best under the circumstances. It’s easy to sit back in hindsight and say “they messed up the salary cap management”, but Nylander happened a long time ago and there’s not much they can do about it now. Theodore – nobody knew if Varly would be ready or not.
Let’s face it, sometimes the bounces have to go your way too. There’s some element of luck – the Pens didn’t have any major injuries. Both Detroit and Washington did. Say what you want about excuses, that really does play a big role in what happened on the ice.
But I’ll take the sentiment as given, overall, even if the picture just ruined my lunch. We don’t need to imitate the Pens. Frankly, I’d rather imitate Detroit if you have to imitate somebody. They’re having just as much if not more success in the long term, and their stars are better people. :)
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
their stars are better people
….that is, except for Kronwall….
by RedskinFan4Life on Jun 16, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
gonchar had a partially torn MCL….
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the point is he played and was more than just another body.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
True, but that’s only one player, even if it was an important one. We haven’t really heard anything else, have we?
The Pens said they weren’t going to release details of their injuries, except they did mention Letang was playing through a serious injury (which I think may have been a shoulder injury that almost kept him out of Game 3 against Washington).
Everyone gets a little banged up over the course of 20+ playoff games, the Pens were a lucky….Even though I still believe Petr Sykora (a 300 goal scorer) was battling something
by Hooks Orpik on Jun 16, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the injures really are important to point out. When I read that list I was shocked, and more than a bit concerned especially considering the amazing number of injuries throughout regular season. Was it just bad luck? Are there ways to minimize this sort of thing next year? How much is our bad ice to blame for some of that (Ovie’s groin pull, possibly?)
There's always more to learn about Hockey.
Agree and disagree with the salary cap issue. Even without Pothier coming back, the team was pretty much at the cap. That was risky going into the season, but at the beginning of the season, I don’t think the general consensus was that the team would be a serious cup contender. Playoffs, yes, but the finals? It was only after they charged out in front of the division and so close behind the Bruins that people started thinking that maybe this could be the year.
I think the salary cap thing is a little bit unfair given all the injuries in November and December and Pothier coming back unexpectedly. They did their best under the circumstances. It’s easy to sit back in hindsight and say "they messed up the salary cap management", but Nylander happened a long time ago and there’s not much they can do about it now.
This is not 20/20 hindsight and it’s not “unfair” – when the team entered the season with Brian Pothier on LTIR, they knew there was a chance – however small – that he might at some point come off LTIR. They accepted that risk, and, frankly, lucked out with the injuries they got and when they got ’em. Had Clark and Pothier been healthy at the same time, the team would have had to shed salary, and that could have meant Jurcina or Bradley, for example.
They painted themselves in a corner and the result is something they knew could happen, and they’re lucky it wasn’t worse.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
And I didn’t say “imitate the Pens,” but feel free to read what you want to read.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
We can’t “imitate the Pens” at this point. Five straight terrible seasons resulting in Lotto picks followed by winning the Sidney Crosby Lottery can’t be replicated. The fact is we slowly built with good drafting and I think our organizational depth is far superior to the Pens’.
Five straight terrible seasons resulting in Lotto picks followed by winning the Sidney Crosby Lottery can’t be replicated
Throw out the Crosby draft and the Pens were slotted 5th, 3rd (traded up for Fleury), 2nd and 2nd in draft picks from 2002 – 2006. The Caps drafted 1st, 4th, 5th from 2004 – 2007 (again omitting the post-lockout draft).
Aside from one season (and one lucky bounce to get #1 in 2005) that’s not too much of a difference. I’m not pretending Pittsburgh didn’t benefit from being very poor for a long time….But come on, Washington did too.
The fact is we slowly built with good drafting and I think our organizational depth is far superior to the Pens’.
We’ll see if that’s true or not. The Pens just raised the Cup in large part to the contributions of young home-grown guys like Scuderi, Orpik, Talbot, Kennedy and Letang and have a lot waiting in the wings (Goligoski, Caputi, Tangradi, Jeffrey). The Caps doubtlessly have a great young system and are stocked, but we haven’t seen results yet at the NHL level like Pittsburgh has.
The Caps doubtlessly have a great young system and are stocked, but we haven’t seen results yet at the NHL level like Pittsburgh has.
Ultimately that is the bottom line. The Pens have a Cup, the Caps don’t. All the organizational depth in the world doesn’t matter until it yields a Cup. But you can’t just throw out the Crosby draft to say that our drafting luck was that similar. 5 straight top 5 picks is clearly superior to 3 out of 5.
But our drafting luck was similar. We didn’t merely get the #1 pick by rights of being the worst team — we got the #1 pick at the same time that a once-a-generation phenomenon was eligible. It was a great stroke of lucky timing for us to get Ovechkin, same as for Pittsburgh to get Crosby.
by CapitalCentre on Jun 16, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
No, the Caps were bad for not nearly as long. As you pointed out, the Pens were slotted in the top five for four years, plus won the Crosby sweepstakes, so that’s five to the Caps’ three, only one of which was in the top two. Pens had one bad year after the lockout. And I’m not complaining, because after all those picks, they SHOULD have gotten to the playoffs by 2007.
No, the Caps were bad for not nearly as long. As you pointed out, the Pens were slotted in the top five for four years, plus won the Crosby sweepstakes, so that’s five to the Caps’ three,
Four seasons of sucking compared to three seasons of sucking is pretty close.
I concede though that the 2005 lottery is the wildcard and a major factor. Throw the Pens Sasha Pokoluk and the Caps Sidney Crosby and the parade is probably down Constitution Avenue this week (Sid lifting the Cup for Washington, isn’t THAT an image we all want).
Me too. And that’s all I’m going to say, because otherwise JP will have to yell at me.
by gfcaps fan on Jun 16, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not to discount that first round completely, but the Pens also won the Kris Letang lottery that year as well.
by Bald Pollack on Jun 16, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I mentioned this in Poti’s wrap yesterday as a backfire, but until Joe Finley steps up, that will have been the most unproductive draft of GMGM’s career.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Is he a Stingray, now? Or is he back in Russia? Either way shrug
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
And the Caps have had 1 NHL game played total from all its draftees combined that year. That’s not Pittsburgh’s fault.
Pittsburgh Black And Gold -- So new, it still smells like paint!
It’s not, but it’s also criminal that the 3rd worst team going into that draft picked 14th. They should have had a Top 3 pick, and ended up with Ryan or Johnson or Kopitar.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Well said, JP.
Once I’d processed the results of R2 Game 7, and got over my dismay, I figured that if the Caps couldn’t get the Cup this year, it had better be the Pens. I wanted the Pens to truly deserve beating us like that and as the Stanley Cup winners this year, they deserve it thoroughly.
I think I might’ve agreed with you if Crosby/Malkin weren’t Pens. I really didn’t want them to get it first, but then again, Crosby got his Hart, Art Ross, and Pearson first, and now Ovie’s lining up for his 2nd in a row, so….
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
The Caps can be challengers – and would still be even if Detroit had won – without being like the Pens. I’ll keep being bitter, thank you. Don’t try to take that away from me.
My eyes!
Stop posting that photo! The Rink needs a “nightmare fuel” tag like Deadspin does.
by Scott in Shaw on Jun 16, 2009 12:28 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
i think the Cup being won by our rivals will help us drive harder. either that or it will make us harbor bitter resentment, which will spill over into poor play because we are driven by the madness inside us. Then we’d need counseling to get over it……
by RedskinFan4Life on Jun 16, 2009 12:31 PM EDT reply actions
The best part about the pens winning is it gave us this hilarious cup celebration photo
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my eyes!! my eyes!!
I don’t know whats worse - that or the Pens celebrating picture at the top of the post.
by RedskinFan4Life on Jun 16, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
that, my good sir, is a blessing. The rest of us have had our eyes so damaged that we can see nothing BUT this picture, perhaps forever.
Rockin' the Red in Section 412
haha my guess is J.P. edited that photo out. Guess I broke a rule?
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Not at all. My guess is that the pic is filtered at SiS’s workplace (as it is mine).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
it got filtered for me too, and I am working from home today. Weird.
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
God Help Us All
I guess this is how they do it in Pittsburgh…
I would rather have lost then Cup then have pictures of Ovie and Green doing this floating around the net.
No filter here, but I see it (unfortunately) below. I regret ever saying anything.
by Scott in Shaw on Jun 16, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
haha yes, be careful what you wish for
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Sean Leahy tweeted it, and a buddy of mine emailed it.
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh thank gawd I wasn’t drinking anything when I read that! rofl
There's always more to learn about Hockey.
Hey nipple pinch is indefensible….Weird things happen in when grown men are celebrating and drinking heavily and there are cameras to capture it, I suppose.
So in these two pics we’ve just replicated mutually assured self-destruction. Can we reach some sort of treaty to bury these photos forever?
Russian Machine Never Breaks
by macvechkin on Jun 16, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
They have matching sunglasses. Imagine that.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Question related to the general feeling I’m getting from some here -
Would you rather the Caps win the Cup next year and the Pens win the following six or neither team win a Cup in the foreseeable future?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
It shouldn’t be, but I get the feeling that some people get more pain from Pens wins than joy from Caps wins.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I get the feeling that some people irrationally get more pain from Pens wins than joy from Caps wins.
Fixed that for you.
by Bald Pollack on Jun 16, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Losing 7 of 8 playoff serieses to the same team, time and again in heartbreaking fashion, will make a fan crazy.
by Stephen Pepper on Jun 16, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I just want to see the Caps win a cup in my lifetime. After that I could die a happy man regardless of who won the next 10.
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Bingo. And that’s my point. To me, there are two ways an NHL season ends – with the Caps as Champs or with someone else winning. And as long as it’s the latter, might as well be the result that best enhances the possibility of the former.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Jun 16, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
(And further to that point, having won it might lessen Pitt’s chances and therefore increase the Caps’ chances next year, no? After all, it’s been a while since we’ve seen back-to-back Champs.)
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
yeah, the priorities of players can change. Once they win, they’re more likely to go with the money than sign for less for a chance to win. That increases turnover. The flipside is that other teams FA’s may sign for less for a chance to win, like Hossa tried to do this past seaosn.
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
They also have a bunch of guys to resign and at least a few of those guys are going to be looking for significant raises. Throw in that Malkin + Staal are getting about an $8 million raise next season and they are going to be facing some cap issues.
I personally wasn’t that impressed with Staal this year… is his current play/potential worthy of 8 million on that team? or any team for that matter…???
Staal’s weird, IMO. He is good, and he strikes me as a good player. Meaning, were I scouting him, I’d be like “holy shit, yo, that be some damn good canadian.” But then I watch him in games, and he doesn’t play like a skill C. Granted, when compared to Malkin and Crosby, it’s tough to stand out, but he doesn’t strike me as the type of player who could play with someone like Ovechkin as his center. He’s simply not playmaker-enough, I guess. But he’s not shooter-enough, either.
Does anyone know what I mean?
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
He reminds me of Boyd Gordon, honestly. He just doesn’t strike me as someone who will ever transcend 3rd Line Center.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s exactly what I’m thinking… sure, he’s a skilled player, but nothing to write home about… and there’s a lot of guys I’d rather have than Staal if I were spending 8 million dollars on a 3rd line center.
Probably overdone with the hype too, with brother Eric a great success.
by red army line on Jun 16, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
its’ 8 million raise total I believe. Staal goes from 2.2 cap hit (850K base plus 1.35 bonuses) to 4 million cap hit. Malkin goes from 3.834 cap hit (984K + 2.85 bonuses) to 9 million.
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Staal isn’t getting 8 mill. I’m saying that his extension and Malkin’s extension both kick in and between them the Pens are paying 8 million dollars more for the two players.
I’m with you, I think Staal is the worst of that crop of 5 players that he was drafted with but as a 3C I don’t think you’ll find anyone better.
Granted, that works out for Pittsburgh absolutely perfectly, but, if they didn’t have Malkin and Crosby, you’ve got to think they’d be pissed about their #3 pick being their #3 C.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t be thrilled to be paying the #2 pick $4 million a year to play third line center.
Although I think the bigger problem is Pittsburgh is, as talented as they are at drafting all these centers, when are they actually going to find consistent, stable wingers?
Like we probably will, they’re going to make a task of drafting them. I would be a little surprised if we didn’t go heavy on the C/RW in the draft this year. If it doesn’t yield results this year, it may in the next year or two.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
He was either #2 or #3 in the same draft, with backs at 4. I’m pretty sure he went 3, could be wrong.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
He went 2. E. Johnson, Staal, Toews, Backstrom, Kessel was the top 5 there. Backstrom is a better C than Staal is but he isn’t a good fit for the Pens. Other than that I’d take any of the other 5 over Staal for the Pens.
Depending on need, I might take Staal over Kessel. But, of course, we need a RW, so, that’s kinda moot :-).
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
especially when you consider the Caps drafted Backstrom 2 spots after Jordan Staal
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
glad to see others had the same thought while I went fact checking haha
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah pretty decent top 12 in that draft
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2006e.html
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
No Way
Sorry…but as a long time season ticket holder it really hurts to go to HOME games and get treated like crap and see fans from Philly and Pittsburgh in everyones face like they own the joint.
For anyone who rememebers the bus loads from PA pulling into Landover, they know what I mean. Im so glad our fan base is taking control, and I hope to see it continue. I dont go up there making a mess of the place, and I dont know any Caps fans that would have the desire too either.
I would rather see the Caps win the cup, but I pull for every other team like they are mine when they play those teams…
I dont like the fan base, and I dont have to like their teams…
I totally agree on your main point, SA (nice Bonzai pic BTW), but let’s not hurt ourselves patting one another on the back for keeping the enemy out of our building. If Teddy Online hadn’t instituted measures to prevent out-of-town fans from purchasing game tickets, we’d still be in that same mess. It’s not like DC fans suddenly have formed huge lines and buy the tix before the Pens/Flyers fans have a chance to, and I’d be hard-pressed to accept that argument from anyone other than the Sales Management. Even then, it would smell suspiciously like propoganda.
Even those tools on ESPN 980 have reverted to “hockey is an irrelevant sport”, I dearly wish the team had the clout to snub these idiots when they make statements like that. Either the town follows hockey or it doesn’t, having our own local sportscasters make statements like that almost proves to the rest of NHL Nation that we are, in fact, a bandwagon town (Present blog company excluded, by definition). Maybe after a couple more successful seasons, these Talking Heads won’t be able to ignore hockey anymore?
by war_capitals on Jun 16, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
After a few more successful seasons, these specific talking heads will no longer be here because neither of them know a thing about hockey. And if they can’t talk about it, they won’t be listened to.
And fired.
I like Czaban to a point, admittedly, but I can’t stand the other one.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
not neccesarily, it certainly helped with locking out out of towners, but the caps had already essentially sold out season tickets and consequently playoff tickets. My guess is something around 2,000 were available per game. Local caps fans kept Flyers fans out without any zip code or area code shenanigans.
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m still not convinced that this year’s result “enhances the possibility” that the Caps will win a Cup. I think external factors have very little to do with it. And I’m sure we could list dozens of “young, hardworking team[s] with high-end talent and little more experience” that never won a Cup. I believe that every NHL hockey player wants to win a championship more than anything else. They don’t need any extra motivation, certainly not of the “but we could be just like them” type.
by Scott in Shaw on Jun 16, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not “but we could be just like them” as much as it’s “we’re as good as they are,” a refocusing on an incredibly familiar measuring stick, rather than a much more distant opponent. It’s equal parts “yes we can” and “fuck these guys” in a way that a Wings victory wouldn’t be.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
OK, that’s better/closer. But I still say that’s only useful if you’re into armchair sports psychology, and it probably doesn’t increase the chances of a championship by any measurable amount.
by Scott in Shaw on Jun 16, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
My focus is the Caps so I want them to win the Cup next year, any year. I’ve said it before but all the other teams are dead to me so unless the Caps can learn something from them or be motivated by their victory, I don’t care what they do. That goes double for their city, fans, mascot, whatever. (It’s hard for me to understand why people focus on that aspect of a rivalry anyway, my attention is on the ice since that’s where the damage is being done.) I make jokes about despising some of our old Patrick Division rivals but none of that’s really meaningful, the Caps either progress as a team and get it done in the playoffs or they don’t, simple as that.
If looking at this whole situation objectively one can be happy about the Pens winning the Cup.
As I’ve said quite a few times: the Capitals have been a year behind the Penguins, in most regards, since the rebuild. I think this curve ended after the Pens\Caps game 7 and they are on even playing fields.
The Capitals proved that after this next year of hard work, better role playing, they can win the Cup come playoff time
Realistically, the Caps are more than one year behind. Others have previously pointed out that the Penguins have several top TWO picks in their lineup, the Caps have exactly one. The Penguins were bad for a few years prior to the lockout, the Caps got bad the year before the lockout. Penguins got the benefit of all the ping pong balls in 2005 because their number one pick was the result of trading up, not winning the lottery. Caps had the misfortune to lose the maximum number of balls because they were “good enough” to make the playoffs in 2003 and won the lottery in 2004. As far as we can tell so far, the 2005 draft seems to have not existed for the Caps. That didn’t help progress any. Still, there’s no reason the Caps have to lose in the finals before they win.
Even so, I’m not objective about this at all. And much as JP would like to think it’s so, the Sid/Alex comparisons aren’t going to go away in October. Not a chance.
as JP would like to think it’s so, the Sid/Alex comparisons aren’t going to go away in October.
I understand that they won’t go away because people like to debate this stuff, but the question should go away – there’s not much of a comparison, is there? One guy’s got a ring, one doesn’t. Who cares who has more individual regular season awards or with whom one would start a franchise or with whose style one is more enamored?
More to the point, everyone knows Alex is better.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
More to the point, everyone knows Alex is better
And that is the real truth of which we’ve all been reminded, today.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
or Thursday….
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
haha true..what happens today?
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by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
The Sid\Alex comparisons aren’t going to go away. I don’t think anyone thinks they will.
I still think that as a team the Caps have been a year behind the Pens. The draft picks and whatnot don’t really matter, the end result does.
When you look back on it a beat to hell Caps team got beaten by the Stanley Cup champions only twice in regulation all season\playoffs. That doesn’t make me think that the Caps are years behind the Pens.
You said you aren’t objective about it though so maybe I’m validating points for no reason?
The Caps also won twice in The Igloo, something the Wings couldn’t even really come close to doing.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
(That’s twice in the playoffs because, of course, the regular season means jack and squat.)
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Twice?
Once in Game 6, you mean? Or are you referring to something different?
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I meant once. Oops. Should’ve been twice.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
That doesn’t make me think that the Caps are years behind the Pens.
Maybe not developmentally, but in assembly. If the Caps are only a year behind, then they’ve done a better job rebuilding. On the other hand, if they were only a year behind, they should have lost in the finals this year. Yeah, I know that’s not what you were getting at.
I think the Caps could have lost in the final this year if they didn’t go up against the team that was going to win it. They were a few bounces away from beating the champs really.
In all honesty, when I learned how banged up the Caps were, I thought it was almost a good thing they were put out of their misery, because I wouldn’t have wanted to watch them lose a series in four, especially if it was going to be the Red Wings again, because the Wings looked really good in the first couple of games. Then again, now that we’re seeing how banged up the Wings were, maybe they could have beaten them. Lots of could have beens.
On the other hand, if they were only a year behind, they should have lost in the finals this year.
Or perhaps they would have been defeated in a tough series against the team that wins the cup. Food for thought.
Realistically, the Caps are more than one year behind. Others have previously pointed out that the Penguins have several top TWO picks in their lineup, the Caps have exactly one. The Penguins were bad for a few years prior to the lockout, the Caps got bad the year before the lockout.
The Caps are more than one year behind in one (and in my mind only one) important respect. Mac-Andre Fleury won his Cup in his fifth year with the Penguins. Semyon Varlamov has barely that many games of regular season experience. And if you don’t think Jose Theodore is going to be backstopping the Caps to a Cup, Varlamov is probably next in line as being the goalie with the shortest distance to the Cup.
If you've read this far...seek help.
yeah it shocks me when I see that Fleury is only 23
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
well then boo NHL numbers Age listings!
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jun 16, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I forced myself to watch the Cup celebration and ...
it helps me appreciate the satisfaction and immense sense of achievement the players feel, even the goddamn Penguins, who have more to say about the Caps NOT getting a crack at the Cup than any other team.
I’m glad they won, I can honestly say, mostly for the reasons JP articulately lists. I’ve made my separate peace with Pittsburgh, finally.
Until October, of course ;).
Well written post, JP. Thanks. I admit that I get special joy from the suffering of Pennsylvania teams not from the fine town of Hershey, but it is comforting to have evidence that we are not delusional homers. The Caps have legitimate Stanley Cup aspirations. Also, living in southern California, I can finally tell the 13 hockey fans here to go f themselves when they bemoan how weak the Eastern conference is. As Honed alluded to above, the gap between the conferences is closed, or at least diminutive.
Debunking the Bill Guerin Myth
People keep bringing up the fact that GMGM was too strapped to acquire some help at the deadline; and they frequently cite Bill Guerin. I was against picking up Bill Guerin at the time, and I still am. Prior to this year (14 points in 17 games) Guerin’s best playoff performances were 8 points in 12 games (‘98) and 11 points in 20 games (’95). He was old and slow and he benefited immensely from playing with Crosby. We don’t have Crosby. Maybe he would have been just as good on a line with Backstrom, but I doubt it. Crosby dominated the puck, singlehandedly gained the zone and started the cycle. IMO the bottom line is that no team except the Pens would have gotten anything from Guerin. Look at last year, Marian Hossa sheds his “playoff underachiever” tag playing with Crosby scoring 26 points in 20 games. This year he played on a stacked team and managed 15 pts in 22 games. To me Bill Guerin and Marian Hossa are points of evidence demonstrating how great Crosby is, not how great either of those guys are, or why we should have tried to fit Guerin under our salary cap. Bill Guerin wouldn’t have helped the team as much as a healthy Green, Semin, Poti or Schultz would have. Our loss was not tied to cap mismanagement.
Bill Guerin wouldn’t have helped the team as much as a healthy Green, Semin, Poti or Schultz would have. Our loss was not tied to cap mismanagement.
I agree that Guerin was in a position to help Pittsburgh more than he probably would have helped Washington. Look at Pittsburgh’s leadership; you got Crosby who’s quiet by nature, Malkin’s wearing an A and doesn’t speak English well and Gonchar is another quiet leader.
Guerin is very outgoing and willing to speakup and was just the leader and had the presence Pittsburgh needed. Not to say Guerin wouldn’t have fit in well in Washington, but he was a perfect fit for what the Pens needed in the room.
I don’t give him any credit for “leadership in the room.” How much has the “Sidney Crosby is a great leader” stuff been crammed down everyone’s throat? They didn’t pick up Guerin for leadership, and Guerin has never even proven himself to be an integral leader on a Cup team. He won as a young kid on the ‘95 Devils with tons of leadership and then again with these Pens. He’s been in leadership positions for many other teams and hasn’t done a thing. PIT needed a guy to finish Crosby’s set ups, and Guerin has always had that finishing ability. He can’t skate much to create his own chances anymore, but with Crosby he didn’t have to.
I don’t give him any credit for "leadership in the room." How much has the "Sidney Crosby is a great leader" stuff been crammed down everyone’s throat?
If you believe everything Versus or NBC says about Crosby he’d be up for canonization. Crosby is a good leader, but he’s still 21 years old and not a “talker”. Guerin is a talker.
Bill Guerin’s presence in the room was a contributing factor of the Pens winning the Stanley Cup. You don’t have to believe it, just take my word for it.
Your point that the Caps shouldn’t have been interested in Guerin, that he wouldn’t have helped is debatable. The fact that the Caps couldn’t really do anything at the deadline is not, and that’s my point, not that they needed Guerin.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I agree, but as you know one of the first names that is thrown out when people talk about GMGM’s cap inflexibility is Guerin. I’m saying that Guerin wouldn’t have helped us, and I can’t really think of another guy that was available at the deadline that would have been worth picking up, even if we had the cap room. I’m just saying I don’t think our playoff loss was in any way the result of cap management.
I think I agree with F&B….The Pens were up against the Cap when they got Guerin and monkeyed with it sending Satan down.
Where there’s a will there’s a way….The Caps could have kept Pothier off the books, they could have put Clark on the shelf for good, they could have waived and eaten Nylander’s salary (though excuse me if he was under no-movement clause this season).
Point being though the Caps were up against the cap, I think they could have found the flexibility to acquire someone at the deadline had they really wanted to. Wouldn’t blame it on the cap, maybe management’s decision not to part with any picks/prospects or let the current roster stay 100% in tact.
What’s your point? Unless “Guerin for Flash” was on the table I don’t think it matters. Would you rather have your day job or Alex Ovechkin’s?
I would want Alex Ovechkin’s day job only if I was Alex Ovechkin, because I’m not nearly as good as he is, and would be a disappointment, otherwise.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Guerin was available for the asking – the Isles just wanted to clear him off the books financially. the Pens got him for a 5th round draft pick, which is essentially nothing; almost a token offering. Had the Caps possessed the cap room, they could have had Guerin. Guerin, being a top-line right wing, would have likely taken the place of one of our other two top-line right wings (Kozlov and Flash). Given that Kozlov is slightly less useless than Flash, I’m guessing that Flash would have been demoted and Guerin would have taken his place.
Can you really say that you wouldn’t pull the trigger on that trade? Do you really think that replacing the complete and utter black hole that was Tomas Fleischmann for much of the playoffs with Bill Guerin wouldn’t have been a massive upgrade for almost zero cost? Yes, maybe Guerin would have been more valuable to the Pens than he would have been to the Caps, but that’s a red herring, since we’re not the Penguins. The question is, would he have been a valuable upgrade to our postseason roster, and I think the clear answer to that question is yes.
Following logically then, the lack of cap space that prevented us from acquiring Guerin was an obvious handicap. Maybe not as big of a handicap as the injuries, but a handicap nevertheless. Furthermore, the ability to acquire depth players like Guerin at the deadline (without giving up anyone off of the current NHL roster) is a great way to hedge against the possibility of injuries. For example, Guerin’s presence helped offset the injury to Sykora.
being at the 50 NHL contract limit also played a considerable role in not being able to get Guerin. So, it was either give up someone on the current roster, or give up a prospect, to fit Guerin into the exist contract limit.
That 50 contract limit could have been worked around, though, by cutting someone in the minors (say, McNeill or Pokulok, for example). It wasn’t much of an obstacle.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Maybe you’re right but I don’t think you can just terminate a contract in the middle of the season. I know you can’t buy them out in the middle of the season. You can do it in the NFL where the contracts aren’t binding, but there’s no way out of an NHL contract without a buyout.
Know what, I think you’re right. My bad. Forget what I wrote.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
And I thought you were the lawyer :-) But getting back to the main point, it really wasn’t the cap that blocked us getting Guerin, which could have been negotiated, but the contract numbe that is set in stone. For all the good things McPhee did last year, boxing himself into a corner like that really was a pretty big blunder.
Thankfully, GMGM has given me confidence in his ability to learn from his mistakes. i don’t think that will happen, again.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I don’t think Guerin would have contributed much more than Flash. Unless Guerin made it on the top line he wasn’t going to be playing with a C that was going to set him up. Guerin-Feds-Semin is just punishment for Semin. Neither of those other two can come close to skating with him.
You’re glossing over the Red Sox/Yankees angle – if Guerin was a Cap, he wouldn’t have been a Pen. That, in and of itself, would have bettered the Caps’ chances of advancing past the second round.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
That’s what I’ve been saying for months. When you’ve got two heated rivals like Pittsburgh and Washington, you make moves as much to weaken the other team as you do to strengthen yourself.
At the same time, back in mid-winter, the Flyers were considered the Caps’ top rival. These things are somewhat fluid.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Taking Guerin would have been the smart move in general, thereby weakening whatever teams he could have made better. Being the smart GM will always hurt your enemies.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Then what if the Pens use that cap space to find an even better player than Guerin? Maybe they push real hard and find a better replacement. Bottom line, the Pens beat the Caps as a team, I don’t think there was a single moment of that series where I felt like Guerin was the difference maker.
Satan’s the only reason the won the Cup.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
the red sox and yankess don’t have messy things like salary caps and limits on contracts to get in their way of world domination. Sigh.
Well, it more directly hurts the Orioles, since they play AL east and all. But it does hurt teams like the Nationals when you have a bidding war like with Mark Texeria.
But there’s a lot of things hurting the Nats right now that have nothing to do with the Yankees, Red Sox, or that turncoat Texeria.
Good call, stuff like this makes me thank the lord that there’s a cap in hockey because I saw a graph once online that displayed how all the richest frankchises are the ones that are winning and the poor ones sit towards the bottom.
when is the graph from? Because that’s not always the case recently. It generally holds true in both the AL and NL east, but the other 4 divisions are usually a bit more up for grabs.
The Rays definitely defied the odds on this one, but it does show a correlation between money and wins.
???
You really don’t think Guerin would have been an upgrade over Flash??? Seriously?
Flash playoff points/game: .29
Guerin playoff points/game: .63
Even if you halve Guerin’s production to account for not playing alongside Crosby, he still comes out ahead. Moreover, Guerin brings physicality and experience, both of which Flash utterly lacks.
I’m sorry, but it’s abundantly clear that Guerin>Flash, for either the Caps or the Pens, and it’s not even close.
Man… between a Schultz Wrap and this post, we’ve hit a commenting gold mine today.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
What else can you say? Schultz inspires us.
by DrinkingPartner on Jun 16, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Schultz for Tai Chi Master
The core training involves two primary features: the first being the solo form: .. movements which emphasize a straight spine, relaxed breathing and a natural range of motion; the second being … training “stickiness” and sensitivity in the reflexes through various motions… in order to learn leverage, timing, coordination and positioning when interacting with another.
Schultz may be the muse, but Poti is where the fights happen.
by Bald Pollack on Jun 16, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe you can post something about how Flyers fans are great fans. That, coupled with the Schultz and the “I’m happy Pittsburgh won the Cup” posts, would be the trifecta in rabblerousing posts.
by Moonage Daydream on Jun 16, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Flyers fans are great when I’m wandering around Nats Park in my Caps t-shirt and random hairy guys in Phillies gear yell out “Penguins suck!” (ok, and some other stuff, mostly having to do with questioning Crosby’s sexuality.) A strange bonding experience, I tell ya.
Very weird. One guy went on a 5 minute rant about the hat trick “incident.” I may have been the most popular girl at the park that night, and it had nothing to do with my boobs! Seems that the enemy of my enemy is my friend thing going on that night, because I had no idea the Caps and Ovie were so popular among the Philly crowd.
I understand the motivational sentiment of the Penguins victory on the Caps performance, and its a good point, but I don’t want Pittsburgh winning anything. To late. Now they have legitimate bragging rights and they will do just that, all season long. I agree with others that have said they just don’t like the fan base. Me either. And I don’t like Crosby, amazing skills and all. And I think the NHL gave them ridiculous opportunities to win this year. Rescinding automatic suspensions? Thats ridiculous. Sure, they still had to score and make saves to win, but if you constantly feel the breath of wind at your back…
I don’t mean to sound bitter, and I’m not. I see it quite objectively, actually. In the course of a 7 game series, Malkins 3 primary assists in game 3 kept the Wings from going up 3-0. Tough road back from, no? Should it have been a suspension? Well, i’m not much for a lot of rules, or conspiracy theories, (or Mel Gibson movies), but if you’re going to punish, you have to do it fairly and consistently. Even if it means diminishing the team you secretly want to win.
Besides, I hate Pens fans. I’ll take a Philly fan over the Pens fan.
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Florida
|
53 | 25 | 17 | 11 | 61 |
|
Washington
|
54 | 28 | 21 | 5 | 61 |
|
Winnipeg
|
56 | 26 | 24 | 6 | 58 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
53 | 23 | 24 | 6 | 52 |
|
Carolina
|
56 | 20 | 25 | 11 | 51 |
(updated 2.11.2012 at 8:02 AM EST)
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