2008-09 Rink Wrap: Mike Green
by J.P. on Jun 1, 2009 7:00 AM EDT
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PrintFrom Alzner to Varlamov, we're taking a look at and grading the 2008-09 season for every player who laced 'em up for the Caps for a significant number of games during the campaign, with an eye towards 2009-10. Next up, Mike Green.
Mike Green
#52 / Defenseman / Washington Capitals
6-2
208
Oct 12, 1985
4
$5,250,000 cap hit in 2009-10; RFA after 2011-12
8.98 rating
Key Stats: Green led all defensemen in goals (by eight) and points (by nine), despite missing 14 games and while still managing to post the fifth-best plus-minus among NHL rearguards.
Interesting Stat: Green was tenth in the League in points-per-game (minimum 18 games played), and the only defenseman in the top 59.
The Good: Forget for a moment that Green is a Norris Trophy finalist as the League's best all-around defenseman - a strong argument can be made that he was the NHL's most valuable player in 2008-09. Besides the points and plus-minus mentioned above, the Caps were 20-4-2 in games in which Green lit the lamp and 33-5-4 in games in which he had a point (10-12-4 when he played and was pointless, 7-7-0 with Green out of the lineup entirely).
But it was his goal-scoring prowess that really made Green's campaign stand out, as he became just the seventh defenseman to ever score 30 goals in a season, the first to do it since 1992-93 (Kevin Hatcher), the youngest to do it since 1983-84 (Paul Coffey), and if you were to adjust his 31-tally total to account for the era in which he scored 'em, Green's season was one of the greatest goal-scoring campaigns by a blueliner in NHL history (and that doesn't even consider the record he set for consecutive games with a goal by a defenseman). Green led all NHL defensemen in both shots-per-game and shooting percentage (as a ridiculous point of comparison, if Alex Ovechkin had the League's best shooting percentage to go with his top shots-per-game rate, he'd have scored 110 goals this past season) and scored more goals than the entire New York Rangers blueline.
And he missed 14 games.
Green quarterbacked the Caps' to the League's second-best power play, the best in franchise history (though, interestingly, the PP was 25.18% efficient with Green in the lineup and 25.45% effective without him), was seventh in the League in average ice time per game and first among blueliners in even strength points (and second to Andrei Markov in power-play points). He was second on the Caps in blocked shots (Milan Jurcina), first in takeaways among the D, and had the best five-on-five +/-ON/60 of any defenseman in the League (minimum forty games played).
Finally, while Bruce Boudreau didn't use him as often as others on the penalty kill (and he when he was used, it was against weaker opposition), Green had the best GAON/60 of any skater on the team four-on-five (minimum one minute of penalty killing time per game), and the best GAON/60 of any skater in the entire League who killed at least 2.3 minutes of penalties per game.
The Bad: Rather than all the stats and info packed into "The Good" above, we could have just as easily typed three words: "the regular season." By the same token, we could fill this section out with "the playoffs" and be done with it. Whether it was injuries (shoulder? ribs? mono?), equipment issues or the weight of the expectations he's created, Green was a different player entirely in the post-season, culminating with a minus-three rating and a third-period benching in Game 7 of the Penguins series. He's still at the top of the list for playoff giveaways (though we should take that with a shaker of salt) and is unlikely to be caught, which segues into a regular season "bad," that being that he was second among NHL blueliners and fourth among all skaters in giveaways, and would have finished first had he played a full season. Then again, adjust the numbers to account for arena-specific scoring bias in this highly subjective statistic and Green doesn't look quite so bad. And speaking of looking bad, that playoff mohawk has to fall under "the bad," no?
The Vote: Rate Green below on a scale of 1-10 (10 being the best) based on his performance relative to his potential and your expectations for the season - if he had the best year you could have imagined him having, give him a 10; if he more or less played as you expected he would, give him a 5 or a 6; if he had the worst year you could have imagined him having, give him a 1.
The Discussion: What would you like to see Green improve on in 2009-10? What will it take for him to earn a 10 rating next year?
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111th of 114 defensemen in plus-minus in the playoffs, the only Cap who played more than one game who was on the minus-side of the ledger.
Please tell me he had some weird jungle disease that the CDC had no vaccine for…
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Jun 1, 2009 7:21 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, but he was minus-3 in that last game, so that killed his overall +/-.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind Green was injured heading into the playoffs. Boudreau mentioned an injured AC joint which is basically medicalese for shoulder separation. That would explain why he kept shying away from big hits against the boards and the lack of power on his shot. I also read something about a mild case of mono which would also explain his general lack of zip on the ice. I’m not buying for a second the argument that he wilted under the pressure. Given all that, I’m discounting his playoff performance. I gave him a nine because he so far exceeded what I had envisioned for him this season. Also, giving him a 10 leaves no room for when we get to the Os.
Also, giving him a 10 leaves no room for when we get to the Os.
Who gets the 10? Markakis? Roberts? Luke Scott?
Sorry. The lameness of summer has set in…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Talk about lameness, it took me two minutes before I realized Markakis wasn’t some Russian winger playing for the Stingrays. Just 105 days to training camp.
Lame? I knew he was talking about baseball players, but I forgot Baltimore has a team.
Zing!
And before anyone responds, Washington doesn’t either.
You can say that again. The Nats record after 39 games is the worst in the last 40 years. Aren’t we all glad baseball is back in DC?
O's
for those that care about Balt. Baseball… the O’s are putting together a team that slightly resembles the Caps resurgence of the last few years. I was a huge baseball fan 10-15 years ago, but kinda fell off the bandwagon (with 35,000 others) as the O’s began to tank after 1999-2000.
Anyway… my point… (completely not hockey related, and I apologize) but I have started watching a bit this year as they’re not “terrible” and they’re bringing up some young guys that are playing baseball that’s fun to watch (which was one of the main draws for the Caps… hockey that is fun to watch)
Markakis, Adam Jones, Nolan Reimold, Luke Scott, Jeremy Guthrie, and now Matt Wieters to go along with some of the kids they’re calling up to pitch (Bergensen, Berken, Hernandez) it’s sort of a similar path they’re following as to how the Caps did a few years back.
They’re only 5 games uner .500… and If nothing else… they’re “fun to watch” (until they open the bullpen) ha!
they’ve got a ton of talent pitching wise as well. Tillman, Matusz, Arrieta and a few others.
Speaking of that, if you want to see some decent games, most of the prospects at Frederick and Bowie are very good as well.
I'm with you Scofield
I’m still boycotting Angelos for ruining one of the best franchises in baseball, but their recent youth movement bodes really well for the future.
I was never happier than when I moved to St. Louis in 2002 and found out what a real 21st century baseball town looks like; and even happier to retain my allegiance to the Caps.
I gave Green a 9 because his regular season clearly deserved a 10, but I can’t forget what happened in the playoffs.
You can say that again. The Nats record after 39 games is the worst in the last 40 years. Aren’t we all glad baseball is back in DC?
I see the National as analogous to the Capitals or Rays – they’re going to get ripped apart until they’re suddenly a legit playoff contender, and they’re reason they’re going to be good is the exact same reason people are ripping them now.
have there been any greek hockey players?
by Gould Old Days on Jun 1, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Niko Dimitrakos comes to mind.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
(None born in Greece, though, as far as I know)
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Not born in Greece but, hello, Nick Kypreos! :)
by Stephen Pepper on Jun 1, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
An Amazing season that was tarnished by the playoffs. I said 9 because of the playoffs but thought about deducting more from him for that. I just hope that the season is his norm and we can translate that to the post-season.
A 08-09 regular season Mike Green in the playoffs and I really think we’d be talking about our line matchups against Detroit right now. But thats why they play the game…
Gave him the 10. He was just too good during the regular season not to get it. He proved that last years breakout success wasn’t just a fluke, and that even with teams knowing he is coming, he can still get it done. And more importantly, he showed that after he got the big contract, he was still willing to play and give it his all.
Perhaps the real reason he got a 10 from me is that he didn’t just rest on his offensive ability. He could have looked at his success last year and decided that he just needed to just do more of the same. Well, he did that too. But he also worked on his defensive game. He hit more, and was more physical. If he follows the usual development of a d-man, he is gonna be scary good in his late 20’s.
It’s hard for me to give him a bad score for his post season. We all saw the tangle up with Stamkos at the end of the season, and we all said a collective “oh shit”. When the reports came back that he was fine and wouldn’t miss any time, we were all collectively somewhere between “oh shit” and “bullshit”. Would we have made it out of the first round without Green? Who knows, but I think we might have made it out of the 2nd with a healthy one. We have the talent in the minors, as proven throughout the regular season and proven again in the AHL playoffs. BB needed to sit him and get healthy, and let the kids from the Bears help out. We may not be Detroit, but our talent in the minors is probably just as strong. When their guys get injured, they sit, and the team wins with the replacements. We needed to try that and let our banged up stars heal so that they could be more effective.
On the bright side, with all that adjusting to a new stick BS, Green probably got sent enough sticks from fans to make it through next year.
After the last two years, I don’t know that Green could earn a 10 next year. The only way would be to score 30 again, top 70 points again, and win the Norris with the only talk about him being ability to shut down a team defensively.
Then again, ramming the puck down a teams throat consistantly on offense isn’t really that bad a defense.
by HateOffSeason on Jun 1, 2009 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions
We have the talent in the minors, as proven throughout the regular season and proven again in the AHL playoffs.
Not disagreeing with your overall point, but show me where in the Caps’ minors where we have a Darren Helm or Abdelkaker.
Oops, meant to put quote this vice entry above.
We may not be Detroit, but our talent in the minors is probably just as strong.
We don’t have the muckers at NHL talent levels in the minor’s, which is why we aren’t Detroit. We don’t have them at the NHL level either. However, we aren’t talking about replacing a mucker from the Bears, we mostly had skill players and defense injured. To rest Green, you grab a Sloan, Alzer (injured), Collins, Lepisto, just as filler until Green is healed up a bit.
You can’t replace Ovechkin, but he was good even with his injuries. Semin isn’t gonna heal in just a couple days with damaged ligiments in the thumb, and you can’t replace that talent. But you can probably replace what he provided after his injury quite easily.
by HateOffSeason on Jun 1, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
And I love Abdelkader, just for his name if nothing else. We need a cool name like that in our lineup.
by HateOffSeason on Jun 1, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Great name. I was reading Puck Daddy’s live blog last night and they kept devising new nicknames for him, Apple Grater, etc. I still can’t read that without laughing.
Before I get called out for wandering off-topic, I love Mike Green too. In a moment of haste, I gave him an 8 because of the playoffs but he deserves a 9. An amazing season in many respects.
Whatever his name is, he seems to have a knack. It was his goal with 18.9 seconds left in the NCAA final that made a winner out of Michigan State over Boston College in 2007.
If you've read this far...seek help.
Is that NHL ’94? Because I loved that game.
Forcing a Pavel Bure trade to the Caps was a lot of fun, haha.
by Knee high to a duck on Jun 1, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
A 10
1) That 33-5-4 in games in which Green had a point really sticks out. Its unfortunate that his post season is what many will recall most. He was absolutely dominant during the regular season. Its scary to think what he could have done in 82 games. How could one give him anything but a 10? Anyone else think he was going to be a Norris finalist?
2) Hard to imagine he could reproduce this past season again, but to get another 10 he would have to have similar numbers (If he plays 80 or so games its possible.
I find sometimes it's easy to be myself
sometimes I find it's better to be somebody else
NINE
I gave him a nine. Including the playoffs.
Chimaera, if Boudreau had benched Green, forcing him to get some real rest, would you have been more understanding and given him a higher rating? Just wondering.
I don’t know. Probably a point or two.
I think there’s blame on both sides (Bruce and Mikes) for his playoff situation. Yeah, he didn’t get a ton of help, but when Erskine/Jurcina probably were your best defensemen in the playoffs, and you’re making 5+, on the ballot for the Norris and are a stud in the regular season, yet you don’t provide any offense and make bonehead defensive plays, I think you deserve some knock. Look, I buy that he was hurt or whatever, but I have a hard time wondering whether or not it wasn’t his brain that was hurt as well when he was consistently passing to the wrong guy or leaving guys wide open. I can live with him not having mustard on his shot or being nervous about taking it if he had a bum shoulder or whatever. But to see glaringly bad turnovers in his own zone was what made me nervous.
Here is where I need someone who actually plays hockey to chime in, I never have. How much does having a bum shoulder affect your play? You give him credit for not being able to shoot well with the shoulder, but don’t give him credit for poor passing? If your shoulder can’t make the proper motions, with the stresses involved, does it affect more than your shot?
I think the same argument could be made for all the criticism of Poti at the end of the regular season. Yeah he had the groin problem, but damn, he couldn’t even clear the puck. Well, if your groin doesn’t let you set your feet, how the hell can you transfer power to the puck?
I could be way off base here, but I tend to think structural problems with your body will change many aspects of your game.
by HateOffSeason on Jun 1, 2009 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
if we establish the fact that he’s at least well enough to skate a little bit, and at least pass the puck from his end boards to the blueline without it stopping, then he doesn’t have a ton of excuse for some of the bad clears he made.
I imagine his injury limited his ability at times, but to the extent to cover the many bad plays he made? I don’t think so.
I’ve played hockey for a long time and been fortunate to never have a serious injury. But even minor injuries can ruin seemingly every aspect of your game.
When I screwed up my hip it ruined everything. You try to take shortcuts and get rid of the puck faster because you know you can’t outskate anyone. So you make the pass too early, before the play has even been set up. You can’t transfer your weight from side to side as well so your positioning is off. You can’t transfer your weight from front to back as well so your shot is off. It hurts whenever you get into the corners and have to battle for a puck. You don’t want to block shots, take a hit, give a hit.
Even a minor injury can be pretty devastating for someone who can’t DEAL with a lot of pain very well.
He was what we thought he was — until the playoffs.
Also, I think that the Caps would like to see his 5-on-5 play improve, in both the offensive and defensive zones. Green moves well off the puck 5-on-4, he’s still learning how to do that in the offensive zone 5-on-5.
His +/- and the fact that he led all D’s in ES points are pretty impressive, but there’s always room for improvement, I suppose.
I’d like to see him work on conditioning (assuming that the rumors and innuendo on this point are more or less accurate).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
I also have to go with a 9. My heart wants to give him a 10 — we knew he’d be good, but this good? I guess the minus 1 is for playing sick/injured in the playoffs. Like some comments above, I kept thinking how much worse off could the team be if Green sat out and they called someone up from Hershey? Maybe resting the shoulder early could have helped out later on and we’d still be playing. Maybe not; it’s not like he was the only one playing who shouldn’t have been.
Why I gave him a 7
Would have been a 9 for the regular season, 1 (maybe 0) for the Playoffs. If these rankings are just regular season, then I apologize for skewing the chart.
We hear a lot of vets near the end of the regular season (and early in the playoffs) talk about how they “save” themselves for the playoffs, and that it is this time of year that really matters. It’s when guys set themselves up for many millions of dollars down the line (Helm). Fedorov talked about it leading up to the playoffs. Osgood said it in a few less words last night (“I can turn it on when I have to…”).
This team is stacked (unless the cap screws us) for a few years to come, and we need to get in that mindset as fans. For all he did in the regular season, 2-3 more tallys in the post season and we’d be on the receiving end of Detroit’s beat down right now.
Even for the regular season I can’t bring myself to give him a 10. He’s a Norris finalist, but I honestly do not expect him to come home with it. For all his great offensive talents, the guy needs to shore up his defensive game, and if there’s any reason he won’t win the Norris, it will be related to this:
Green: Self-Generated /- (35), Overall /-: 24. Net: -11
Chara: SG/- (22), Overall: +23. Net: +1
Lidstrom: SG/- (+26), Overall +/-: 31. Net: +5
For Green to get a 10 from me next year, I’ll take slightly less point production, move the above stat closer to even or +, AND not disappear while trying to get us to the Cup finals.
And to answer the question posed by localhead above to Chimera (since I ranked him the same…). I still feel BB should have utilized the Bears more in the playoffs. I understand we have a limited number of call-ups, but we knew something wasn’t right with 52 at the end of the regular season going into the playoffs. I’m not sure how much real rest would have been required to let Green heal. Keep in mind, the guy did all his offensive damage WITH the bum shoulder (unless we believe that his Pronger-incident completely healed, and it was the takedown vs. ATL that was bothering him in the playoffs. I don’t.) If not for the playoffs, I’d probably have given him an 8.
I’m not sure the “self-generated” plus/minus means anything. Who cares who “generated” the plus? How do you measure who “generated” a minus? The point is to get more +s than -s. Green did that with the best of them. How can you punish him for having points on so many of his +s but not realize that the converse to that argument is that Lidstrom and Chara were the benefit of many +s simply on the strength of their teammates? Plus/Minus is a mushy stat but you can’t try to manipulate it even more to try to take away from Green’s accomplishments.
It’s a stat I started looking at when I was tossing around the idea of what would be the perfect season for a defenseman. As a Defenseman, it’s your job from keeping the other team from scoring. Period. How you do it can vary. The style of play can weigh heavily on the outcome. Some choose to rush up the ice and keep the puck away from their defensive zone, while others choose to stay in their zone, destroy whoever has the puck and get it out of the zone to the team’s other playmakers.
Sure, it’s wonky, but to me, it’s no more wonky than true +/-.
So if a defender had a perfect season, one could argue that defender would have allowed 0 5v5 goals. Therefore, could never be – in this stat.
Maybe Green’s style of play will never put him near even in this stat. What I’m looking for from him is an increased ability to understand who he’s on the ice with. Maybe rushing up the ice and getting caught behind the other goal when our first or 2nd lines are on the ice isn’t such a great idea. As this team matures, and as our other forwards get better, we’ll start to see other players doing what Laich Steckel and Gordon did so often this year (and Backstrom late in the year). Upon seeing Green blow by them with the puck in the offensive zone, they turned and hightailed to the vacant point. To an extent, it’s the only thing I’ll be glad to not see with Kozlov gone. Many a time when Kozzie was closest to the point vacated by a pressing D-man, he’d be the closest to cover and would just stand there watching the puck and opponent blow by him.
I gave him a 9. I honestly would have a hard time envisioning a better regular season out of him (realistically, at least), so he’s as close to a 10 as I’d give there. Bump him down for his playoffs (though I think Boudreau deserves some of the culpability here for continuing to play him when he was obviously ineffective), but I can’t go lower than an 8, and the sheer dominance of his regular season deserves a big number.
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by J.P. on Jun 1, 2009 9:01 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
When his birthday comes around again in October, he’ll turn 24. Twenty-four! Defensemen are supposed to take longer than forwards to develop. He deserves an 11 or 12 for where he is compared to where we can reasonably expect him to be.
And I think people are being unfair in rating him on the playoffs. He led the team in TOI with 24:59 — the next D-man down the list is Tom Poti with 21:36 in the playoffs. And he did that all with only one good wing. He proved to me that he has the grit, determination and heart to succeed in the playoffs. Now we just need to get him there with two healthy arms.
My concern about Green has always been that he might be just a little soft when the games are most important. I’m not worried about that anymore. Just for what it took to get out there every game, and the fact that he was still pretty effective (though other teams learned to take advantage of him) he gets a good score from me for his playoffs performance.
When his birthday comes around again in October, he’ll turn 24. Twenty-four!
That’s probably the most important number here. There are two others…
174. He had that many games — about two full season’s worth — coming into this year. He didn’t (and doesn’t still, for that matter) have a lot of experience.
20. That’s how many seconds of ice time he got on average in 2007-2008 on PK. Only Sami Lepisto averaged less. This past year, he got 2:28, fourth on the team among defensemen playing at least 50 games.
Green is very much a work in progress on defense.
If you've read this far...seek help.
Gave him a 9
Just on the general principle that a 10 should be damn near impossible to get.
In order to get a 10, he’d have to put up another 35+/75+ season, and be a beast in the defensive zone, organize breakouts routinely and well, and end up in the +20’s or so. He could do it, too, which is the good thing.
The playoffs, well, I give him a pass this year, due to the injury we all know he had.
9.
We all knew he was playing hurt in the Playoffs even before they came out and told us. Let’s just hope that everything gets fixed in the offseason.
by PaintDrinkingPete on Jun 1, 2009 9:48 AM EDT reply actions
Green gets a 9.
Purely from the ‘potential’ standpoint – no one expected a 30 goal season out of the kid.
He had a record breaking season, played through injuries, top 3 in Norris voting (we’ll see where he ends up – honestly I’m guessing he wins it since the media loves the sensational story).
How does he get a 10? Better playoffs? No – while he didn’t have the best playoffs, he was hurt (excuses) but it was WAY over exaggerated. He was tied for first in defensemen points through most of the penguins series, no?
He gets a 10 by becoming solid in his own zone. I guarantee you he wouldn’t win the Norris if he has an identical season next year in terms of play & points, and I would give him more around the 7 or 8 rating. He’s shown his potential, now’s the time for a complete game.
Game 2
I have a question on last night. Shouldn’t both players get a one game suspension for not having their jerseys tied down ( I am talking about the late game fight)..I believe Semin got a suspension earlier this year when his jersey came off.
Jersey Tie Downs...
There’s no rule for a suspension if the jersey isn’t tied down, only a Game misconduct. From NHL Rule 47.13
A player or goalkeeper who engages in a fightand whose jersey is not properly "tied-down" (jersey properly fastened to pants), and who loses his jersey (completely off his torso) in that altercation, shall receive a game misconduct penalty. If the player or goalkeeper loses his jersey despite the tie down remaining in tact and attached to the pants, the game misconduct is not applicable, however this must be reported to the League office so that the jersey and the tie down can be examined.).
Zetterberg does not get penalized at all for not having his jersey tied down, as the next paragraph says that a the Game Misconduct penalty will not be assessed if a player loses his jersey when the opponent is identified as the instigator.
A player or goalkeeper who is involved in an altercation, when the opponent has been identified as an instigator, shall not be assessed a game misconduct penalty if his jersey should be removed by an opponent or an official in the discharge of his duties, regardless as to whether or not he was properly "tied-down" (jersey properly fastened to pants).
Malkin should have been suspended due to getting an instigator penalty with less than 5 minutes in regulation (as per rule 47.22):
A player or goalkeeper who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation in the final five (5) minutes of regulation time or at anytime in overtime, shall automatically be suspended for one game. The Director of Hockey Operations will review every such incident and may rescind the suspension based on a number of criteria. The criteria for the review shall include, but not limited to, the score, previous incidents, etc. The length of suspension will double for each subsequent offense. This suspension shall be served in addition to any other automatic suspensions a player may incur for an accumulation of three or more instigator penalties.
When the one-game suspension is imposed, the Coach shall be fined $10,000 – a fine that will double for each subsequent incident.
No team appeals will be permitted either verbally or in writing regarding the assessment of this automatic suspension.
(Emphasis mine…)
They put in an out for a situation like this one so they can rescind the Malkin suspension…
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jun 1, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Wasn't the first time...
This playoff season that a player had a suspension reversed. See BOS-CAR series. I believe the Scott Walker thing would have been a suspension for Walker but Campbell reversed it.
As to, why have it if not to enforce it, the rule is in place to eliminate message sending. Coaches putting guys out there just to beat on a team at the end of a game.
This altercation started cause someone poked Opie in his gut after the play, Zetts hit the guy, then malkin came around and gave someone a stick to the face.
What bothers me though is the hit by Orpik in the…1st or early 2nd on Zetterberg. Similar scenario to Brash’s suspended hit, yet I doubt we’ll hear anything about it.
Exactly what I am saying….Why have it…the same could be said for ….why give refs whistles if they aren’t going to use them…apparently they wore them out in our series with the pens! I never liked the idea of “swallowing the whistle” it turns off the casual fan and also the hard core fans. I understand the no calls but I never liked it.
with you, 100%...
I’ve been keeping a strict eye on infractions this series. What I want to know now, more than anything, is if the NHL mandates to the commentators what they can and can not say, or if NBC just hired a bunch of morons.
Part of me wonders if the NHL has the pull. Example.. The Pens CAR series on VS, Joe B was paired with the Pitt homer the whole time. You would think you would try to be fair and give CAR their homer announcer for 1/2 the games. Last nights call of the game (more importantly, the color, not the call) was horrible.
The complaints by McGuire and Milbury about the non-calls surrounding the first and second DET goal can not be made while ignoring the non calls from game 1 that DET overcame, and the ones in the first and second period. The PP to which just after DET got their 2nd goal, should have been a 5 on 3. There was the hook by Malkin, but as Hossa was gaining the zone, he too was taken down illegally. Malkin’s break away last night was another prime example.
If it creates or denies a scoring chance, it has to be called.
Go to any pens site and what you will read is….cry cry cry….In fact they are crying so much there has been a flood warning for Pittsburgh just issued. I remember the same fans telling us to stop crying about “no calls” …..
The hysterical part is that when we were screaming about the non-call on Orpik when he interfered with Gordon on the play that eventually led to the OT winner in Game FIve, we were called whiners and losers. Now, all they can talk about is the non-call on Hossa when he knocked the stick out of Dupuis’ hands that led to Detroit’s second goal. That’s called karma, baby.
Karma
Love it. I have many Pen friends sad to say, but I will truly enjoy the day when the wings win the series again….and poor Cid is crying….
Is it October yet….can we just start over already!
How could anyone call that a penalty on Hossa? His stick is on the puck! Now it’s a penalty when I slash your stick and MY stick breaks?
by Gould Old Days on Jun 1, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
when I slash yourstickskate and MY stick breaks
mostly because pierre mcguire and eddie olczyk were loud and adament about the “non-call” on the air. maybe wait for the replay evidence next time, boys? and i’m assuming NBC never showed this CBC angle at all.
Can I see a frame-by-frame MSPaint breakdown of the Orpik hit please?
by Scott in Shaw on Jun 1, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A Ten...
If his injury issues in the playoffs had happened in the regular season, he wouldn’t have been in the line-up. Sure he wants to play, and gives whatever he has every night, but if he’s hurt to the point of being ineffective, then it’s up to the coaches and training staff of the team to tell him that he has to take a break to heal up. A player will always want to go, and I can’t blame Green struggling in the playoffs with all the medical issues he had.
That said, his regular season ranks among the top 5 offensively for defensemen in NHL history. Green has amazing skills and hasn’t reached peak age yet. Is he as good offensively as Orr or Coffey yet? Probably not. Can he get there? Possibly. Coffey was very good for a very long time and his defense, while good, was never great. If Green keeps going on offense like he has been, and at the same time improves his defense, he will be a Norris candidate for a very long time. I doubt he’ll reach the heights of Bobby Orr, because while Orr was either the best or second best offensive defenseman ever (Coffey being the other), Orr was also, in his prime, the best defensive defenseman in the league (He was Paul Coffey and Rod Langway rolled into one…albeit with two really bad knees… by the time he was 32, he was finished as a player.)
To get to a 10 again… that’s tough. He led the league in goals and points from the backline despite missing 14 games…that speaks volumes. I honestly don’t know if he will ever have a better season in the coming years….he might, but he might also settle in to being a 20 goal 45 assist guy for the rest of his career, which is also valuable. If he gets his defensive game from where it is (above average) to where it could be (excellent), then the sky’s the limit.
Let's go Caps!
The biggest focus for Green going into next year I think should be simply staying healthy, keeping himself in better condition during the season.
by Stephen Pepper on Jun 1, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
True, but then most of his injury time was due to his being…well…Prongered in Anaheim. That’s not necessarily an avoidable injury. Ditto for Mono… that’s no fun.
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Jun 1, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
9.5
Our boy Mikey had a spectacular year and richly deserves the Norris, IMO. I was forced to take .5 off for a heartbreaking playoffs. I agree with whomever said that the point deduction really ought to go to Boudreau for playing him in that “condition”, whatever it was. I wonder if we’ll ever get the full story. He was really awful.
What would you like to see Green improve on in 2009-10? Strength, balance, better body positioning vis-a-vis forecheckers, conditioning for the long haul, health, eating right, good roughage, staying away from people who have the flu and mono, washing hands regularly, not changing the nature of his attack game if he’s hurt or aching, keep on attacking and making those delightful full ice rushes where he can weave through about eighty defenders without even looking down at the puck on his stick. (See: Fedorov, Nike commercial) I love that stuff! Worth the price of admission, no question.
What will it take for him to earn a 10 rating next year? Another regular season to match this past one AND a post season to match that. Oh, and Mikey: keep that coiffure all year. Bangarang!
9 - and Gabby said it was nerves!
10 for the regular season. Playoffs were about as close to 1 as I could imagine, so a 9 feels a bit generous, but that regular season was really one for the ages.
I’d like to imagine that his awful playoffs resulted from injuries, but Gabby for one seemed to think it was nerves. Check out the 10 minute mark:
http://capitals.nhl.tv/team/console.jsp?catid=809&id=42126
Whatever the cause, I come here to praise Mike Green not bury him. He’s a beautiful puckhandler, a good passer, a great shooter, a fine hitter. The guys is mentioned in the same sentence as Paul Coffey. Paul freakin’ Coffey! Here’s hoping my kids get to spend the next 12+ years rooting for Green in a Caps jersey.
Yeah, but the Caps never talk about injuries. Nerves…sure. They also blamed it on the new sticks he had to use.
by HateOffSeason on Jun 1, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Mike had a great season and then disappeared with his bum shoulder, which was bitterly disappointing. I felt his pancake hit of Sjostrom (?) on the sidewall in game 1 of the Rags series was where he really reaggravated the shoulder that nagged him in the reg. season. Whatever—I have grown weary of the injury excuse for the Caps.
And please. no more Norris talk for 52, for now. Despite his gaudy +/-, his work in the defensive zone needs to improve to get in the same breath as Lidstrom and Chara. The kid is 23 and it’ll come, but he’s not there yet.
from the house that Red Jesus built
And please. no more Norris talk for 52, for now.
The Norris is for the best “all-around” defenseman. It’s fair to argue that Green’s offense so overwhelms everyone else’s so as to compensate for his relative shortcomings in the defensive zone. I don’t know why this concept is so hard for people to grasp. Let the Norris talk continue, says I.
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by J.P. on Jun 1, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps more interesting would be the effect it might have on his career arc whether or not he wins it? Could it turn him into an egocentric locker room cancer if he does take it this year? Could not winning it disappoint him so badly that he doesn’t try any harder, knowing that Lidstrom and Chara will always be bigger names that get the award? My hunch is that he won’t win it this season and that he has a slightly less-stellar season next year (but still a vital cog in the werks). Two years from now, he takes the Norris (perhaps Chara and Lidstrom both go down with 4 month+ unjuries?) and we win the Big One…
by war_capitals on Jun 1, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
The problem with that argument for many people:
Goals scored are so much more recognizable than goals disallowed from defensive players. So how are the dmen that are really awesome in their own zone measured up comparatively to a stat like goals?
My favorite coach always said that every goal you prevent is two less you have to score. So if Green stopped a sure goal in all 30+ games we won where he got scored would the Caps have been just as good or better?
Probably not, since they like to play come from behind so much, but still something interesting to think of.
I am still a proponent of Green winning the Norris though and I agree with you.
Every goal Green scored was two more the opposition had to score. So every goal is actually worth two goals.
by Gould Old Days on Jun 1, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t that how you would look at it for a defensive forward? I mean I get your point but I’m talking about Green being more defensive and less offensive.
Oh, I was just being a smartass. I don’t think a goal prevented is worth more than a goal scored, or vice versa. Varly’s save on Crosby was worth one goal prevented — no more. If Crosby scores there and Green scores a goal immediately after, then you’re in the same position you started in.
by Gould Old Days on Jun 1, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
The Norris is for the best "all-around" defenseman. It’s fair to argue that Green’s offense so overwhelms everyone else’s so as to compensate for his relative shortcomings in the defensive zone. I don’t know why this concept is so hard for people to grasp. Let the Norris talk continue, says I.
It seems that there are too many Caps fans that think that if you don’t play like Langway or Stevens you aren’t worthy of even being called a defenseman. These are these same type of people that complain about Norris voters ignoring one half of being an all around Dman (defense) while they themselves completely discount the other half (offense). The Caps score more often when Green is on the ice, and the other team scores far less often. Isn’t that the point of defense? Anyone who thinks offense can’t help team defense clearly has never watched either team currently in the finals, nor noticed how atrocious the Caps’ breakout was when Green was out of the lineup.
While I’m on a roll, I never understood the ridiculous claims that “the Norris is now just a trophy for the best offensive Dman”. Leetch and Coffey are always trotted out for this argument, but it’s been over a decade since either of them have won. So who are the all offense-no defense Dmen that are continuing to make a joke of the Norris Trophy? Lidstrom? Niedermayer? Anyone who wants to keep up with this absurd argument needs to get some new blood in there.
Sorry for the rant, just one of my pet peeves when it comes to talking about Green.
I gave him a 9: incredible regular season, -1 for the equally terrible postseason (yes, I know he was injured, had the wrong stick and his dog died).
by Killer_Carlson on Jun 1, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
And please. no more Norris talk for 52, for now. Despite his gaudy +/-, his work in the defensive zone needs to improve to get in the same breath as Lidstrom and Chara.
Then you probably won’t want to watch the NHL Awards ceremony. I’ve got a sneaking suspicion he’s going to win the Norris. At the very least there’s going to be a lot of “talk” about him possibly winning it. And not to be picky, but are we the only fan base that doesn’t want one of our guys to win a major award?
Who doesn’t want Green to win? I sure as hell do.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
It's all about the expectation
I never once said I don’t want the kid to win the hardware. And I’ll be totally psyched. But I’ll go on record here to say that if he does win it, then the Norris’s of the the Rod Langway era must be for that other dude, Chuck Norris.
from the house that Red Jesus built
I share your sneaking suspicion, b
“The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position.”
Best player in the NHL with a “D” next to his name? Mike Green
his work in the defensive zone needs to improve to get in the same breath as Lidstrom and Chara.
And by the same token Chara will never have the offensive prowess that Green has.
true
so, who ya got for better all around D right now: Chara or MG?
from the house that Red Jesus built
I think evaluating them right now, only thinking about one season, it’s about a wash. In post-lockout NHL I think the tie goes to the skater. If we are looking big picture, then Green has way more upside, Chara is essentially maxed out and won’t improve his skating much at this age. There is no reason Green can’t be as good as Scott Niedermayer in his own end, and he is clearly better with the puck than Niedermayer, and a much much better scorer (scary thought). I’ve also never seen Chara in our lineup and I have seen how much we lose when Green is too injured to be effective.
I have Chara as the better all around Dman right now and this year's Norris winner, but
he plays with a super-underrated D. Wideman, who doubtlessly improves his game (and stats). I agree that in the long term, MG has a higher upside. And just think if a Mike Komisarek was next to him for the next 4-5 years.
from the house that Red Jesus built
Lidstrom should win the Norris. I think Green will win. If you are winning by a goal late in the game, you put on Chara. If you are losing by a goal late, you put on Green. Regardless, Lidstrom is the other guy. I think it’s pretty clear that you’ll get no argument from me against having Komisarek next to him but I think more likely Alzner is going to be that guy for as long as Green is here.
prolly so on Alzner….Kom is the epitome of what we need; reality will dictate something less.
Lids seems to always makes the right play in the defensive zone: mechanical excellence. He’s a superb PP QB. I think Chara had a big enough season to interrupt the run, though. Interesting Stat: since Bourque’s back to back 20 years ago, only two guys under 30 have won it (Pronger and Leetch). Should be a fun night-I am contemplating a sin city run, as I am close by.
from the house that Red Jesus built
I was thinking about going to Vegas but unless I can swing free tix I’m not going to bother trying to plan around the NHL awards show. I don’t think Chara’s year was all that dominant this year, he’s getting the “lifetime achievement” love and Lidstrom is suffering from being held up to his own standard. Lidstrom may not have been as good as he has in the last decade but he was still dominant. Chara is physical but I think his skating can be exposed and aside from his booming shot I don’t think he’s a threat to do much with the puck. I know it’s a small sample size but I think Lidstrom plays much better against AO than Chara does (I also think a case can be made that Timmonen plays AO better than any other Eastern Conference D).
You gotta love the 5 geniuses who gave Green a 4 but what about the MORON who gave him a 1? Obviously a Pens fan. I don’t believe for a second that Green was a head case in the playoffs. He obviously couldn’t skate, pass or shoot like his normal self. He toughed it out but was ineffective. Maybe an 8 at worst for me (10 on the regular season).
I think like others, that with a relatively healthy Mike Green we’d be in the finals right now. I think he would’ve been the difference against the Pens. Can’t wait for next year.
Caps fan since the '70's.
the whole “wilted under the pressure” claims don’t hold any weight. He scored 7 points in 7 games against the Flyers (but was also -2) last season, and nearly gave Thorsensen a slap shot vasectomy, though I don’t know if that would fall under “the good” or “the bad”.
Green was clearly hurt, the question is would we have been better off resting him than playing him?
http://www.wiseadvertising.com/home.htm
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
4. Man did he suck.
Ok, really a 9 and very close to a 10, even with the playoffs. I don’t think you can overstate how good he was during the season and while I hope that’s his new baseline, I’m not sure we see a PPG pace from him again.
To get a 10 next year – 30/50/80, +25, reduce giveaways.
To get a 5 – 15/45/60, +15 and otherwise approximate this (regular) season.
-d
Btw, I think I might have set a new record for links in a single post. Jesus.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
We are lucky to have Green, and his offensive numbers for the season overall are certainly far beyond what anyone could realistically expect of any defenseman in any season.
But I also have to account for a number of goals against that started with a puck traveling right past Green and the only part of him moving in reaction was his eyes. The guy who usually got blamed for those goals was either the other Caps player who didn’t prevent the actual shot, or the goalie who didn’t make the save. I tend to let him off in that defensive reflex reaction may be one of his weaker gifts but I’d still like to see less of these incidents next season.
I can’t imagine what the people who voted 4 and below expected of Green this year. perhaps that he find a cure for cancer?
Eh, there’ll always be outliers b/c anonymity gives people the excuse/right/impetus to be idiots. Luckily we have enough people who take these things seriously enough that the results are pretty good and pretty useful.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
And you have people who are perfectly willing to not be anonymous when they're an idiot ;)
I’m surprised that most of the time I’ve voted what everyone else has. I think Japers’ has raised my hockey IQ. It’s still terrible, but it’s getting there.
I'm way late to the party...
Missing a day of work will do that to me, as I don’t spend every waking moment on the computer at home :-), but I gave Green a 9 simply because I did factor the playoffs.
As difficult as it is, and as much as I’ll likely get burned for doing so, I’m going to give him a pass on this year’s playoffs (obviously, not for voting purposes) and see what happens next year. We all saw Green have a good playoffs last year, so I don’t think it has anything to do with expectations.
But we’ll see. Green gets a 9. Excellent year. I expect a Norris in a few weeks. I hope he expects it, too. He earned it.
You can't hold Green's subpar playoff performance against him
There is little doubt Green suffered several physical problems. I’ve been watching him since his Hershey days, and Green is a superb, fluid skater. He didn’t skate well in the playoffs at all. Watching try to stick handle and his movements (or lack thereof), seemed to indicate he was favoring his shoulder. Boudreau recently gave indications there was thought Green had mono, which explained the marginal skating.
Green was money during most of the regular season, but marginal in the playoffs. I give him a “9” — he can still improve in his own zone, so he doesn’t merit a 10.
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Florida
|
55 | 27 | 17 | 11 | 65 |
|
Washington
|
55 | 28 | 22 | 5 | 61 |
|
Winnipeg
|
57 | 26 | 25 | 6 | 58 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
55 | 24 | 25 | 6 | 54 |
|
Carolina
|
56 | 20 | 25 | 11 | 51 |
(updated 2.12.2012 at 10:06 PM EST)
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