Pick 'Em: Norris or Hart?
by Stephen Pepper on Apr 3, 2009 1:45 PM EDT
in Pick 'Ems
84 comments
Sometimes you can have your apple pie with ice cream. (Uh, you know, the way the French do it.) And sometimes your favorite local bar serves, as mine does, a "recession special" featuring a heavy-handed pour of mystery whiskey with a can of PBR as its sidekick. But often in life, we can't have it all. We have to choose one or the other. Which leads me to today's Pick 'Em.
Two weeks ago, we asked you to choose which of Mike Green or Alex Ovechkin should be considered to be the Capitals 2008-09 MVP. This one's a little different. While you're sitting back on the couch on the evening of June 18th, watching the Awards Show in Vegas (or, perhaps, partying hard in Sin City), which of the two players would you more want to witness hoist an individual award of such incalculable distinction? Green, winning the James Norris Memorial, or Ovechkin, repeating as the Hart Memorial recipient?
Which speech would be more poignant? Hilarious?
Mike Green broke an NHL record this season by scoring in eight consecutive games, reached a goal-scoring proficiency on Wednesday night not seen in over fifteen years in the big league, and leads the league in points by backliners with 70, six more than second-place Andrei Markov (who has played in 14 more contests). And he's also not half-bad in his own end either.
Green winning the Norris, in a sense, could bridge the gap between the Capitals teams of the early 1980s, who were lauded for their defensive prowess, and today's team chock-full of high-end offensive firepower. The last time a Caps defenseman won the Norris was in 1983-84, when Rod Langway won the award for the second consecutive season.
It would also be quite a beautiful feather in GM George McPhee's cap. A first round draft pick (2004) was Green, but the 29th pick overall. Could anyone have envisioned that level of success from a single first round draft year (which also brought into the fold, of course, Ovechkin and Jeff Schultz)? Anyone could have drafted Alex first overall. But a Norris Trophy candidate, to be potentially won just five years later, with the #29 selection?
With Green earning the Norris, the Caps would then boast, in the last two seasons, winners of the Hart, the Lester B. Pearson Award, the Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy, the Art Ross Trophy, the Jack Adams Award, and a Calder Memorial Trophy finalist. Not to mention having a former Frank J. Selke Trophy winner and former Vezina Trophy winner on the current roster. Whew.
And just imagine how Greenie and Big Dave would celebrate in Vegas. It's a wonderful image.
By the way, I don't need to remind you that Green was left on the 2009 All-Star roster cutting room floor, and that the Caps were not amused. The last time in which the Norris Trophy winner was not on the All-Star Game roster of that same season was in 1998, when Rob Blake won the hardware, about ten years ago. Before that? Chris Chelios, in 1989, nearly ten years before that year. Interesting.
Ovechkin's Hart credentials for this season, like last campaign, are simply unassailable. He's tallied 12 more goals than his nearest competitor (Zach Parise) to date, and scores the most "meaningful goals" in the clutch. His team is on the verge of winning a second-straight division title and bettering its point total from last season by ten points or more.
Acknowledging the definition of a Hart winner ("given to the player judged to be the most valuable to his team") the Hart is popularly considered to be the award granted to the best player in the game today. It's a tremendous source of pride for the organization and the community of fans, knowing that "our guy" has his name (and the team's name) inscribed on that most breathtaking of individual NHL awards. So a repeat commendation places an even more impressive stamp of the Washington Capitals on that trophy.
And this year, the race for the Hart is as charged as ever with raw emotion, with our arch-rival's star center Evgeni Malkin considered the most formidable challenger to wrest the trophy from Alex the Great's deserving hands. Few topics of debate in hockey right now get fans and media alike more charged than Ovechkin vs. Malkin for MVP.
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May have voted differently if Green had won the Norris and AO didn’t win the Hart last year.
by Fauxrumors on Apr 3, 2009 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So who’d you vote for?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Apr 3, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll assume you voted for Green… so did I.
And I’ll agree with what I assume was your logic. To me, there is nobody that can hold a candle to Green and the year he is having. Ovie, yeah, he’s been awesome, as expected. But he was better last year, more important to the Caps last year, and there was nobody in the league that could really be argued as a better candidate, last year.
Green has to be rewarded for the year he is having.
If I have to choose one, its got to be Green.
by Sct112 on Apr 3, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I choose Green, too, just because Ovie already has a Hart.
But, I personally think that’s part of the problem of this question. Let’s say Alex had his ‘08-’09 season last year. He’s not leading in points, is leading in goals (by a mile), is leading in 3rd period goals, 18 power play goals (so far)… are you telling me that he wouldn’t still get chants of M-V-P from the Verizon faithful? If the expectations weren’t raised so dramatically for this year (as they, maybe not necessarily lowered after his ‘06-’07 season, certainly weren’t raised that much), I say there’s less debate about the MVP-caliber season he’s having (again).
Green didn’t have Norris expectations going into the season with him, the way Ovie did. If Ovie’s ‘08-’09 season doesn’t net him another Hart, just because it wasn’t as spectacular (mostly points-wise) as last season, I’ll honestly probably be more upset about that than about Green getting robbed.
That said, I think they both get their dues :-).
by DrinkingPartner on Apr 3, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really tough question.
On one hand, it’d be nice for Green to be immortalized with the Norris.
On the other, if AO wins the Hart, he joins a ridiculously sweet group of repeat Hart winners:
Hasek
Gretzky
Lafleur
Clarke
Orr
Mikita
Bo. Hull
Howe
Shore
Morenz
No Mario. No Messier. Back-to-back Hart wins is full-on hockey deification.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Apr 3, 2009 2:02 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Rec’d. That’s why I voted for AO. The repeat Hart winner thing is tough to do and Green has plenty of time to win the Norris. Whether or not he wins it this year GMGM looks like a stud for that draft.
by Fehr and Balanced on Apr 3, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn you.
I rather quickly, and impulsively, voted for Green because Ovie already has the Hart trophy… but that list definitely makes me think twice. That is one impressive ass list.
by superjuan on Apr 3, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t make me post an impressive ass list…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Apr 3, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Save it for the GDT. That list is worth at least one goal for.
by Fehr and Balanced on Apr 3, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you also just reminded me that Green wasn’t an all-star… so it definitely should be Ovie for the Hart. I mean, no way a non-all star wins the Norris right?
by superjuan on Apr 3, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way, I don’t need to remind you that Green was left on the 2009 All-Star roster cutting room floor, and that the Caps were not amused. The last time in which the Norris Trophy winner was not on the All-Star Game roster of that same season was in 1998, when Rob Blake won the hardware, about ten years ago. Before that? Chris Chelios, in 1989, nearly ten years before that year. Interesting.
by David M. Getz on Apr 3, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said, I quickly (i.e. before reading the post) voted and commented.
by superjuan on Apr 3, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let this be a lesson to all of you who comment/vote first, read second!
Just kidding.
Sorta, but not really.
:)
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Apr 3, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I did read up to the “Which speech would be more poignant?” part…. then I figured the rest was rehashing stuff I already knew (but obviously didn’t remember immediately). Plus, some Greenie-love posts (for instance) had already swayed me.
But point taken… I’ll at least ready half the post next time.
by superjuan on Apr 3, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I voted Green… then convinced myself the other way with my comment above. I need to think longer before pulling the lever myself.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Apr 3, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is why I haven’t voted yet.
by David M. Getz on Apr 3, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Delayed gratification has never been my strong suit. But what I lack in patience, I more than make up for in my other-worldly ability to parallel park.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Apr 3, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wound up voting for Ovechkin. I’d love to see him in the kind of elite company consecutive Harts would put him in.
Also, I’ve never parallel parked when there only one car length of space. Never.
by David M. Getz on Apr 3, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re just waiting to see who’s the clear winner…
You’re too fair-weather for me DMG… blaze your own trail :)
by Sct112 on Apr 3, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love how, in my head, these polls are as important as off year elections.
by superjuan on Apr 3, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, don’t, I’m still at work.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Delores Ibarruri
by gotsparkly on Apr 3, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of impressive rearguards?
by Stephen Pepper on Apr 3, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scouting report: Greatest assets evident in back end play.
by James Mirtle on Apr 3, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
deification… almost like a defensemen scoring 30 goals…
by Sct112 on Apr 3, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not exactly.
Gordie Howe = hockey god
Kevin Hatcher = not so much
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Apr 3, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was kidding…
the Great One’s ownership of the Hart during the 80s has to be the most impressive run/record in all of sports.
by Sct112 on Apr 3, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could anyone have envisioned that level of success from a single first round draft year (which also brought into the fold, of course, Ovechkin and Jeff Schultz)?
On a semi-related note, in THN’s recent article on Green, they threw out the statement that drafting him and Ovechkin in ’04 might be historically akin to the Habs drafting LaFleur and Robinson in the ’71 class.
Back to the topic at hand, I’d go for Green, but settle for Ovechkin.
"Thank God there is a sport for middle-sized white boys.."
by Bald Pollack on Apr 3, 2009 2:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I voted for Ovie but have an agenda. I think I’d enjoy thinking about what kind of 09-10 season Greenie might have if he’s playing with a “Norris Snub” chip on his shoulder…just being contrary, I suppose.
by mechanicsville on Apr 3, 2009 2:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The “All-Star Snub” chip has worked out pretty nicely, eh? 28 games, 18 goals, 19 assists, +7, 3 GWG.
For what it’s worth (a lot), that’s a 52 goals, 55 assist pace over 82 games.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Apr 3, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If only he could play defense! :)
by mechanicsville on Apr 3, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Green. My reasoning? The marginal difference between Green and the next-best alternatives is a pretty steep drop. 30/40/70 while putting up the same +/- as Chara? More points than Eric Staal while playing in 15 fewer games? Sick, just plain sick.
The only guys in the conversation with Green are Rafalski/Lidstrom, Weber and Wideman/Chara. None of those guys put up the same combination of scoring, puck rushing and defense. Plus, I personally like the fact that Green doesn’t just bomb away from the point – the guy’s a sniper from the backline.
Ovie’s great, and his season has been amazing, but I think that Malkin can make a good argument for the Hart. I’m not saying he should get it, but a “Malkin for Hart” argument gets more traction with me than a “Chara/Weber/Lidstrom for Norris” argument.
by D'ohboy on Apr 3, 2009 2:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why do you guys all hate Ovechkin? :)
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by J.P. on Apr 3, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Because he acts like those goofy soccer guys.
by superjuan on Apr 3, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When he said he could see Alaska from his house was what did it for me.
"Thank God there is a sport for middle-sized white boys.."
by Bald Pollack on Apr 3, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because I know that Ovie probably doesn’t need this one to still end up on that back-to-back Harts list (furiously knocking on wood).
I voted for Green just because I am less sure he will have another chance at it, and the all-star snub factor is also there. Ovie is going to be the Hart mix on a regular basis, I would have to think. Green may ultimately be too, but I’m not as sure.
Spoiler alert, they’re going to win both anyway.
by grapejoos on Apr 3, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Id like to see Ovie win the Hart again, if only to cause a massive apoplexy in Pittsburgh.
At this point, sticking it to the Penguins means more than Greener winning the Norris.
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Apr 3, 2009 2:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They have two Stanley Cup Champions banners hanging in their rafters. I doubt that one of their players losing out on an individual award is gonna hurt much.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Apr 3, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did they have 2 banners when AO won the Calder? Did that make a bit of difference?
by Fehr and Balanced on Apr 3, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough, I suppose, though I’m sure a large number of Pens fans countered that loss with, “That’s nice. Guess what we’ve got that you don’t?”
Guess I just don’t agree that “sticking it” to another fan base should be more meaningful than one of “our own” being honored.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Apr 3, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All that stuff’s patently obvious, but as obsessed as they are with Ovechkin, it would make me happier if he won the Hart
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Apr 3, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the end of that sentence should read “it would make me happier if he won the Hart than if Green won the Norris”
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Apr 3, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only way to stick it to the Penquins is to beat them in the playoffs or win the SC.
by Moonage Daydream on Apr 3, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Conn Smythe for either
but for the purposes of the poll……Green for the Norris.
I think they both have time to repeat
never let the truth get in the way of a good story
by toymechanic on Apr 3, 2009 3:02 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree with up above, though, that Back-to-Back Harts is more impressive than a 1st for Green. Repeat and back-to-back are different beasts.
by DrinkingPartner on Apr 3, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Repeat and back-to-back are different beasts.
Um… did you just blow my mind or mistype?
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by J.P. on Apr 3, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess he meant consecutive years vs. winning it in 2008 and again in, say, 2012?
by Stephen Pepper on Apr 3, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotcha. Makes perfect sense. I’m dumb. My bad.
JP needs happy hour, stat.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Apr 3, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I blew your mind. clasps hands together
by DrinkingPartner on Apr 3, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if Threepeat = back-to-back-to-back it seems like Repeat = back-to-back sometimes
In probability theory, events E1, E2, …, En are said to be mutually exclusive if the occurrence of any one of them automatically implies the non-occurrence of the remaining n − 1 events. Therefore, two mutually exclusive events cannot both occur. Mutually exclusive events have the property: Pr(A ∩ B) = 0. For example, the result “1” and “2” from the roll of a die are mutually exclusive, because it cannot be a 1 and a 2. Similarly, “heads” and “tails” from the toss of a coin are mutually exclusive as they cannot happen at the same time. When A and B are mutually exclusive, P(A or B) = P(A) + P(B).
In short, mutual exclusivity implies that at most one of the events may occur. Compare this to the concept of being collectively exhaustive, which means that at least one of the events must occur. Two events are mutually exclusive if they cannot both occur simultaneously.
(Source: The Analysis of Biological Data, Michael C. Whitlock and Dolph Schluter).
by Icebat on Apr 3, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, hey, now. Minds have already been blown here, let’s simmer it down, now.
by DrinkingPartner on Apr 3, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is really a matter of semantics rather than probability or logic.
by David M. Getz on Apr 3, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn’t serious about the probability quote.
I could go into how semantics implies a truth and there is a probability of a correct or incorrect inference.
But I won’t, It was just a joke
by Icebat on Apr 3, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that sentence could’ve been written a little tighter, but it’s all there sorta
:)
Moving right along….
by Icebat on Apr 3, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
I think that’s delving too far. Repeat can both mean back-to-back and once now, once later, and you can add as many to that as you want. Gretzky was a repeat winner. He also had back-to-back wins at least once in that span (didn’t he go 7-in-a-row or something?). Logic isn’t necessary to explain that.
by DrinkingPartner on Apr 3, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also had back-to-back wins at least once in that span (didn’t he go 7-in-a-row or something?).
Eight in a row, in fact. Talk about something we’ll never see again.
by David M. Getz on Apr 3, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My sentiments exactly==on the Conn Smythe
by OldPhil on Apr 3, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Crosby joins Malkin ahead of Ovi in points does that make Ovi less or more likely to get the Hart?
Two weeks ago it was a “no-brainer” that Ovi would have more goals than the Isles would have points by the end of the season.
by Icebat on Apr 3, 2009 3:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the spread vs. Malkin is the key question. Crosby pulling ahead of Ovie really could go either way for Malkin, but I think it would probably hurt Ovie more than Malkin.
by grapejoos on Apr 3, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, then he looks more like an also-ran with good PR. Nevermind that he has the same # of GWG as the other top 3 guys combined.
Datsyuk’s existence up there by himself with no other Red Wings as far as the eye can see really shows what a solid team they have which would hurt his case further
by Icebat on Apr 3, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I gotta disagree here. If two guys are one-two in the league in scoring and pretty close overall, there’s going to be that “well how much is Player A and how much is Player B?” question to it, which hurts the MVP chances for both of those guys.
by David M. Getz on Apr 3, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s the Pro Hockey Writers voting and not Don Cherry’s Canadian retirement community so perhaps PR does count in Ovi’s favor
I mean, what are they going to write about Geno to describe the year he had leading up to winning compared to Ovi’s year?
I hope I don’t have to root for Crosby to pass Ovi to improve his chances
:)
by Icebat on Apr 3, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely possible, especially for the voters that use the “what if you took him away from the team” type of MVP analysis. Though it would be really sweet if Malkin and Crosby finished 1-2 and Ovie won the Hart with more 1st place votes than the two of them combined (and I’m going to call that a distinct possibility here).
by grapejoos on Apr 3, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and to think..
..we almost lost both of them in a horrific utility cart accident.
i voted for AO, mostly on the strength of SP’s closing paragraph. in my mind, the hart is king. it’s the headliner. in comparison, the norris is the best supporting actor academy award. and i’d rather greenie lose out to a chara or a lidstrom than AO lose out to malkin.
by Natty Bumppo on Apr 3, 2009 3:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Would it all be a wash for you if Ovie wins the Pearson and not the Hart?
The Hart is king only because the media is the one that gives it away. To me the Pearson is a more valuable award.
by Sct112 on Apr 3, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i can see the logic to holding the pearson in higher regard than the hart. i mean, we all want to be respected by our coworkers, and when i played organized sports i wanted to be respected by teammates and opponents.
but as a fan, i care how my favorite players are evaluated by the media and presented to other fans. hart takes top billing at the awards show itself, and will take top billing in the headlines the next morning. all professional sports have media-voted MVPs (and media-voted HOFs). the hart is the NHL’s equivalent to any other league MVP. it’s the reason lebron james wants to shake AO’s hand.
by Natty Bumppo on Apr 3, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Hart’s also been around about fifty years longer.
by David M. Getz on Apr 3, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure that age matters very much to me. The Hart always goes to a worthy guy and it would be nice to win for sure. But given the choice, if I’m a player, I’d rather than a player in Vancouver think I’m the MVP than a media guy in Vancouver think I’m the MVP.
by Sct112 on Apr 3, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I refuse to vote. I want my ice cream and pie. or an ice cream pie. or a stanley cup and neither of the above.
by sincitycapsfan on Apr 3, 2009 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Would not surprise me to see them both win… but you know they both want to win something before the trip to Vegas….
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Caps on Apr 3, 2009 4:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That’s what makes the MVP that much more impressive, though. The players see you and respect you for being the best, but being the best SO HARD that other local media guys have to wake up and smell the roses? I’d say that’s much more difficult a task. You have to persuade them not to vote for their own guys.
And Ovie is downright persuasive.
by DrinkingPartner on Apr 3, 2009 4:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts
First… the “More Goals in Clutch” link is from 2008. I was looking at it and going, “wow, that is kinda impressive…” then saw Gaborik way up the list. At first glance I said, “holy cow, Gabby’s like 6th when he’s only played like 15 games…” then I saw the date. Anyway, just thought I’d put it out there that it applies more to last year. It’s refreshing to see that the same stats this year have a similar outcome. Only, Ovie’s up on #2 by a few points. #2? None other than our #28 with the hockey sense of a rabbit!
http://thehockeynews.com/articles/24882-Campbellnomics-March-31.html
Now, as to how I voted. I picked Ovie. However, I’m gonna caveat it a few ways. First, I think the Pearson is a more valuable award than the Hart. To be voted MVP by your peers is far more important than to be voted MVP by some hockey writers.
Second. I think back-to-back winning of an award as prestigious as MVP is an amazing acomplishment.
Lastly, getting to watch Green night in and night out, I get to enjoy his offensive abilities. But Wed’s game vs NYI was a shining example of why I would have trouble voting for him for Norris. He had a HORRIBLE night in our defensive end, but redeemed himself offensively. The Norris is supposed to be for a guy who demonstrates the greatest all-around ability. To me, that player is clearly Chara or Lidstrom.
For all skaters, there’s Points, Goals, MVP, Player’s MVP… Why do we have just one defensive award. How about we make two awards. Keep Norris for those guys who are the best all-around defenders… and give the Paul Coffey award to guys like Greener and Gunch.
by FFSEnough on Apr 3, 2009 5:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure I agree that Green hasn’t been the best all-around defenseman despite sometimes shaky defensive play. As you say, it’s an all-around award. Well, Green’s offensive contributions have been enormous and more than make up for any defensive shortcomings he may have, IMO. That kind of weighing of offensive and defensive skill is the crux of the Norris deliberations and why I think it’ll be an interesting choice this year. To be sure, if Green were not blowing away the field with his scoring to the degree that he is, he’d probably be a nominee at best. It’s the size of the gap that makes it hard to justify voting for anyone else – Lidstrom has always been at or near the top of the defensive scoring leaders when he has won the Norris.
If you split the award, I think the only way to do it would be to have a best offensive performance and best defensive performance category, because otherwise don’t you just look at which defenseman had the most points for the offensive one? Given that the Selke tends to go to an offensively gifted player most of the time, I’d suggest that the voters just can’t wrap their minds around the defensive voting component and that it just wouldn’t work that well. I think the voters can average things for themselves.
by grapejoos on Apr 3, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's no defensive stats
Which is why I think Green will win it. People will look at his high +/- and tons of goals and say, “Wow, that guy’s good in both ends…” But there’s no real stat that shows you how well the guy plays defensively.
My issue with Green is not his one-on-one capabilities. The guy has great hands and can poke-check like a demon. He’s also got the best hip-check in the league. It’s when his offensive decisions impact the team negatively on defense. Look at the Park goal vs NYI. Even Fehr was asking Mike what the hell he was doing on that play as the puck laid in the net.
Green’s been a monster for us this year. He could end with 35 goals this year. Prorated to a 40+ goal season if he had played the whole campaign. Dude can score. But it’s his offensive ability that allows us to look past the defensive lapses in judgement/effort. Could it be the team not working as hard as they could all year? Especially down the stretch, he hasn’t looked too hot in our end… Maybe the focus isn’t there. Maybe he was still sick. Maybe his elbow is hurt more than he’ll let us know. To me, a Norris trophy winner doesn’t have the lapses in judgement/effort he has at times.
Do I feel comfortable giving Green a defensive award because of his offensive capabilities? I think what I’m trying to get at is this:
Chara’s got 17 goals, 9 PP. 24. He has been good enough defensively for the rest of his team to pad his +/- to the tune of +16. (/- – ES goals).
Green’s got 30 Goals, 18PP, +24. His +/- – ES goals is +12.
Green has contributed a higher % to his own +/- than Chara.
This is a tough one this year. I tend to feel like the Norris should go to someone who’s better at his #1 responsibility. Then again, as NHLNetwork’s loveable Bruce Boudreau-act-alike says, we’ll use our offense as a defense. Then they’ll be totally defenseless.
I will close my argument with this. If green were not hands and feet above everyone else offensively, we wouldn’t even be talking about him as a Norris candidate.
by FFSEnough on Apr 3, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that we would not be talking about Green if not for his offensive dominance. But the Norris is for the best all-around defenseman, and a defenseman has offensive responsibilities as well, even a guy like Chara (as his 47 points attest).
I will confess I do not understand the +/- – ES goals numbers you are using. Because PP goals for/against don’t count for +/- other than the guy in the box, I’m not sure what it is. It seems like this adjusts for how much a player has contributed to their own +/-, but perhaps that is a different stat, but you also mentioned it. You’re right that stats don’t really capture defensive performance – we have numbers like blocked shots, hits, and +/-, but they don’t tell the whole story. My point in terms of defensive stats is that all of Green’s defensive stat indicators are still very good. His +/- is the same as Chara’s, regardless of how the points were accumulated (and I’m not sure I give a guy less credit as a defenseman for being on the ice for goals they didn’t collecte a point on – I think it probably goes the other way in my book, though I see your point). He’s also played 14 fewer games than Chara, and while +/- can go either way, I imagine it’d be even higher with an equal number of GP. Chara has more hits. Green has almost as many blocked shots and would have more if you equalized GP. To the extent the stats matter, I think the point is that they both have good defensive stat indicators. But I agree that none of them really capture defensive performance. +/- is the best we can do there. And speaking of +/-, I think it’s interesting (but not necessarily indicative of anything) that Green is 2nd on his team, 1st among D in +/- and Chara is 5th on his team, 2nd among D.
I think we’d both agree based on what our eyes tell us that Chara is better in his own end at certain things than Green is. He’s more physical and is better at shutting down opposing players. He’s worse at breakouts, whether passing or skating, and he also appears to be worse at blocking shots (according to the stats), to the extent that it matters. All of those things are responsibilities of NHL defensemen, and I’m not sure why one should matter more than the other when the question is who is better all around.
Even if Chara has an edge based on the play in his own end, the fact is that Green has 13 more goals and 23 more points (at ES, 4 more G and 7 A) despite playing in 14 fewer games. That is why he’s going to win the Norris, and I don’t see any problem with that.
by grapejoos on Apr 3, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this point, it looks like they’re both going to win. To me anyway.
by James Mirtle on Apr 3, 2009 5:28 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
As I am preparing to visit our fine Sin City for the first two nights of the NHL playoffs, I am eager to get a sense of what the NHL Awards in the big V would be like. With another roster of potential posteseason award winners, I would entertain another roadie in June…thoughts?
from the house that Red Jesus built
by bigonetimer on Apr 3, 2009 6:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Ovechkin has a much better shot. He’s just far and away the best in the league, and the voters may want to spread their votes between some different teams.
If the Norris was an offensive defenseman award like the Selke is a defensive offenseman award, it would be a slam dunk for Green. I would tap Chara to win it at this point, but both are certainly pretty deserving.
Swing by The Flyer Frequent. You have nothing better to do.
by Ben Rothenberg on Apr 4, 2009 7:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Washington
|
68 | 45 | 14 | 9 | 99 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
67 | 28 | 27 | 12 | 68 |
|
Atlanta
|
67 | 28 | 29 | 10 | 66 |
|
Florida
|
67 | 28 | 29 | 10 | 66 |
|
Carolina
|
68 | 28 | 32 | 8 | 64 |
(updated 3.14.2010 at 9:01 AM EDT)
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