Pick 'Em: Feds Or Foppa?
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 12:30 PM EST
in Pick 'Ems
77 comments
With the Avs in town and word coming down recently that Peter Forsberg is likely ready to call it a career and because you guys seem to be half asleep today, I figured I'd throw a question out to the group: who has been the better player over the course of his career - Sergei Fedorov or Peter Forsberg? Is your answer different if the question is who would you have rather had in his prime?
Here are some of the vitals:
|
Fedorov |
Forsberg |
|
| Drafted |
74th, 1989 |
6th, 1991 |
|
Regular season games |
1,227 |
706 |
| Regular season goals |
477 |
249 |
| Regular season assists |
690 |
636 |
| Regular season points |
1,167 |
885 |
| Regular season points per game |
0.95 |
1.25 |
| Plus/minus |
268 |
242 |
| Game-winning goals |
91 |
43 |
| Playoff games |
169 |
151 |
| Playoff points |
168 |
171 |
| Playoff points per game |
0.99 |
1.13 |
| Stanley Cups |
3 |
2 |
| Individual Awards |
Hart, Selke (twice), Pearson |
Hart, Ross, Calder |
| All-Star Games |
6 |
5 |
| Olympic medals |
Silver, Bronze |
Gold (twice) |
| Off-ice accomplishments |
|
 |
1 recs |
77 comments
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In today’s political climate you have to go with the “loser”.
by hotdog88gt on Feb 20, 2009 12:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It was obviously Forsberg….until that last piece of evidence.
by Ginga on Feb 20, 2009 12:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You stole my answer! : )
"barf... BARF!" "always when I'm eating!"
by Leif on Feb 20, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The numbers
say Feds, easy. His durability has to be taken into account. But I voted for Foppa solely on the basis that he is my favorite non-Cap of all time.
by wittcap79 on Feb 20, 2009 12:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed that durability shouldn’t be undervalued here. Along those lines, Fedorov’s numbers (points per game, that is) have been dragged down in part because of his durability – Foppa was more or less done by the time he was the age that Feds was when Feds was exiled to Columbus.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fedorov easily. If he played the same number of games/same years of his life that Forsberg did, his per game numbers would be much more competitive. His durability is what puts him over the top, that and the fact that he might be the best two-way player in his time, and it shouldn’t be that close.
I will say a healthy Forsberg probably might have taken this (just like a healthy Lemieux might have taken a comparison to Gretzky) but he wasn’t healthy, so it’s moot.
by brs03 on Feb 20, 2009 12:39 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
While I’d hesitate to say there’s a “right” answer here, this is as close as you’ll get to one.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Forsberg
Still has a .15 advantage in points per game if you just take their primes into account. Federov’s time with the Wings he was at 1.15 points per game, Forsberg’s time with the Avs (not counting last "season") was 1.30.
Federov’s “Prime” also included the 90-94 seasons, which was, for all intensive purposes, before the trap dominated the game. Federov was able to benefit from that using those season and scoring 1.19 points per game. That’s a luxury Forsberg never had. During the "trap years (95-’03) Federov only had .98 points per game, while Forsberg still had a whopping 1.3.
The 2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Slumpbusters
by Jibblescribbits on Feb 20, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Comparing the points per game in seasons in which they both played:
Feds: .88
Foppa: 1.25
Comparing the seasons they both played and were between the ages of 22 and 34:
Feds: .96
Foppa: 1.25
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I rest my case.
The 2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Slumpbusters
by Jibblescribbits on Feb 20, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Colorado Avalanche: Gellin' and Propellin'!!!
by Mike @ MHH on Feb 20, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s hard to believe that someone who was drafted before I was born can still play (I mean really play, not just wander around on the ice).
And Forsberg’s career is not necessarily over. If it was, he would’ve probably said that during the press conference.
Как же так может быть?
by sleza on Feb 20, 2009 12:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Its not that amazing
I mean Chellios was playing before all of us were born.
by Sct112 on Feb 20, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
People who were born before the latest ice age are not count
Как же так может быть?
by sleza on Feb 20, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Beat me to it. I was going to go with “That’s what Jesus said about Chris Chelios.”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Chelios remembers when players could stick fight and get a moon pie for a nickel.
by CapitalsKremlin on Feb 20, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why wouldn’t he? He’d been in the league ten year at that point.
by David M. Getz on Feb 20, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Forsberg’s lady looks…uninterested…if you know what I mean. Feds wins.
by CapitalsKremlin on Feb 20, 2009 12:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
At least she looks… legal.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“that’s the great thing about high school girls, I keep getting older but they stay the same age” – Feds.
true story
by CapitalsKremlin on Feb 20, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta love a Friday afternoon “Dazed” quote.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think looking at career accomplishments I’d have to say Fedorov. The numbers look better for Forsberg but his career was basically over at 33, which is the age Fedorov left Detroit and the league got really, really defense oriented, so I think if Forsberg had been playing regularly over the last few years his points per game would be lower than it is, just like Fedorov’s has gone down.
Still, I might have taken Forsberg in his prime on a game-to-game basis.
by David M. Getz on Feb 20, 2009 12:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The numbers look better for Forsberg but his career was basically over at 33, which is the age Fedorov left Detroit and the league got really, really defense oriented
this makes no sense, at all. Forsberg played the Majority of his career in the “trap” years. He got nearly all his numbers when the league was defensive oriented. Federov was able to get some of his numbers (and thus increase his average) before the trap really took over (as I explain above).
The 2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Slumpbusters
by Jibblescribbits on Feb 20, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What I was getting at (and didn’t articulate particularly well) was that, by virtue of his age, Fedorov was hitting a point in his career where you’d expect his numbers to decline based on his age that correlated with the increase of the trap and thus the decrease in scoring throughout the league. I.e. you don’t expect a 34 year old Fedorov to put up the same numbers as a 24 year old Fedorov, but the decline in his numbers is exaggerated by the fact that when he was 24 the league’s goal per game was 6.40 and when he was 34 it was 5.02, which pulls his per game average down further.
On the other hand Forsberg didn’t play (much) in his mid-to-late thirties, let alone his mid to late thirties when the trap was en vogue so we don’t know what effect that would have had on his per game numbers.
by David M. Getz on Feb 20, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Makes more sense
But you’re still wrong :)
Federov was 25-26 to 32-33 during the tap years (95-03). Still well in his prime
The 2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Slumpbusters
by Jibblescribbits on Feb 20, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
trap*
The 2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Slumpbusters
by Jibblescribbits on Feb 20, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Coincidentally, ‘93-’97 were my tap years, so there is some overlap.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
I’ve been working on my Ethiopian Shim-Sham, and have Tap on the brain.
The 2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Slumpbusters
by Jibblescribbits on Feb 20, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair.
I was curious so I did a little bit of digging and in what I’d consider comparable years (trap vs. no trap and age were the considerations). Here’s what I got:
Fedorov: .41 G/GP, .56 A/GP, .97 Pt/GP
Forsberg: .37 G/GP, .92 A/GP, 1.28 Pt/GP
I will say that those numbers, plus your points, have put me from on the fence to in the Forsberg camp in terms of better player in their prime. However, I still think Fedorov’s longevity gives him the edge for better career.
by David M. Getz on Feb 20, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Was I asleep when durability ceased to be a desirable quality in a hockey player?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
It’s a legitimate point for Federov
The 2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Slumpbusters
by Jibblescribbits on Feb 20, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
more
quick on the reply button…
It’s a legitimate point for Federov, but if you use it (and his ability to adapt at an older age) you have to make fair statistical comparisons based on when they were actually playing.
i.e if you place counting career goals, assists, etc and also cite his durability then you’re essentially counting the same two qualities twice.
The 2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Slumpbusters
by Jibblescribbits on Feb 20, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but will say this -
If I had one game to win and had either player, 100% healthy, ready to go and in his prime, I give the sweater to Forsberg.
BUT, if I knew at the time what I know now about each players durability and had a 25-year-old Fedorov or a 25-year-old Forsberg to sign to a 10-year contract, I take Feds.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s why I think Fedorov has the clear edge in terms of career accomplishments. He has more than 550 more NHL games than Forsberg and played at a very high level for the vast majority of them. Still, if you’re talking one year or one playoff series with both players in their prime and healthy….that’s a different story.
by David M. Getz on Feb 20, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I imagine Gorilla Crouch would like a do-over after their assesment in Summer 2007. Fedorov’s resurgence has really been a godsend, and I agree that his durability makes him the pick over the course of their careers.
Signed,
Proud owner of a Feds t-shirt jersey.
by Natty Bumppo on Feb 20, 2009 1:03 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Nice link. Rec’d.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know it’s been sort of touched on, but lets not forget about how many potential points Fedorov “lost” by playing a significant amount of defense for Detroit.
by Toddra on Feb 20, 2009 1:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Along those same lines, I always thought Forsberg was viewed by many as the typical weak European for the first couple years of his career, then he improved on that too.
"Good crowd out there tonight, boys, let's really try to win this one."
by Bald Pollack on Feb 20, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll take either of them on my team… they’re both Hall of Fame players.
by MikeL-Caps on Feb 20, 2009 1:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Take injuries out?
For the sake of argument, is everyone still voting the same way if we choose to say Forsberg isn’t injuried 80% of the time?
by Sct112 on Feb 20, 2009 1:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Number of times Fedorov scored more than 30 goals in a season: 9
Number of times Forsberg scored more than 30 goals in a season: 0
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 1:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Number of times Joe Thornton has scored more than 30 goals in a season : 2
Forsberg was a passer, Federov a pure goal scorer. Not really a fair comparison there.
The 2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Slumpbusters
by Jibblescribbits on Feb 20, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, for every Ovechkin, there’s an equal and opposite Crosby. :)
And I wouldn’t say “pure goal scorer” -
Number of times Fedorov had more than 60 assists in a season: 2
Number of times Forsberg had more than 60 assists in a season: 5
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Calling Forsberg a Crosby is fightin’ words.. I’d watch what you say.
Still 4 of Federovs 30+ goal seasons came before the onset of the trap (’95). Again, forsberg never had that opportunity.
The 2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Slumpbusters
by Jibblescribbits on Feb 20, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll be wary of the left hook. :)
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Number of times Forsberg had 45 assists in a season: 7
Number of times Fedorov had 45 assists in a season: 6
by David M. Getz on Feb 20, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Again
4 of those seasons were before ’95 and the trap.
The 2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Slumpbusters
by Jibblescribbits on Feb 20, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Feds a pure goal scorer?
..also a pure passer, and pure defensive forward? Face it, Feds was incredibly well-rounded. You can’t just brush that aside.
by brs03 on Feb 20, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But he played for the Red Wings. You just can’t brush that aside. Plus he was cold-war-era Russian!! I’m a red-blooded, stereotypical-hating ’Merican and I prefer Swedes on postage stamps to commies who got in a poon-tang pissing contest with Valeri Bure!!
Colorado Avalanche: Gellin' and Propellin'!!!
by Mike @ MHH on Feb 20, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pavel. Please. Feds wanted nothing (that I know of) to do with the eldest daughter on Full House.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, got my Bures mixed up.
I wasn’t speaking of Full House sloppy seconds. Weren’t they both trying to hide the weasel with Miss Kornakova?
Colorado Avalanche: Gellin' and Propellin'!!!
by Mike @ MHH on Feb 20, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah – it was Feds (who was actually married to her, supposedly) and Pavel Bure.
Pavs’ brother Val married the eldest daughter on F/H (the one that turned out not to be a meth-head and didn’t kill Heath Ledger, but the one whose brother is the insane born again). That’s Pavel on the right and Val on the left here:
Awesome.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
How much street hockey did these two actually play? I have a card of Pavel with his rollerblades on, sitting on a railing.
Weird.
by Sct112 on Feb 20, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not like Forsberg wasn’t playing any defense, though. I mean, he was NEVER a minus player for any season of his career (and regardless of what you think of the validity of +/-, it says something). Frankly, I’m surprised he didn’t pick up a Selke along the way.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not brushing it aside, just saying they were different style players. Federov was more of a Goal Scorer, and Forsberg a set-up man.
And Federov was incredible defensively, but Forsberg wasn’t too shabby either. It’s not like the difference in their defensive abilities is a deciding factor here. It’s a minuscule difference.
But comparing their “# of X goal/assist seasons” is not a fair comparison for two reasons: Federov was able to rack up a significant amount of those seasons in the non-trap seasons, and they are different style of player who were asked to do different things for their teams.
Forsberg was on lines with Claude Lemieux, Valeri Kamensky and Adam Deadmash (for the most part). He was asked to set them up, and he did that to the tune of 1.25 points per game. Federov
The 2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Slumpbusters
by Jibblescribbits on Feb 20, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Forsberg is underrated defensively. I was going to throw out that “never had a minus season” stat just as JP posted it.
by David M. Getz on Feb 20, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's Feds
Forsberg was obviously a terrific hockey player, but it’s Fedorov at the end of the day.
You’ve collectively nailed most all the hockey-related reasons why. I might add that I do like Feds defensive contributions better than the gimpy one’s.
And Feds nailed Anna Kournikova.
’Nuff said.
by fat_daddyo on Feb 20, 2009 1:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Federov played for the Red Wings and THE MIGHTY DUCKS OF ANAHIEM.
Game, Set, Match – Forsberg.
Colorado Avalanche: Gellin' and Propellin'!!!
by Mike @ MHH on Feb 20, 2009 2:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Forsberg played for the Flyers.
Game, Set, Match – Fedorov.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nope
The Red Wings are Emperor Palpatine compared to the Flyers Jabba the Hut.
The 2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Slumpbusters
by Jibblescribbits on Feb 20, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jibbles,
There’s no need to bring the average weights of the fanbases into this discussion.
Colorado Avalanche: Gellin' and Propellin'!!!
by Mike @ MHH on Feb 20, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey
I’ve been to Michigan… they ain’t noPpalaptines in the physique department
The 2008-2009 Colorado Avalanche: Slumpbusters
by Jibblescribbits on Feb 20, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The skin condition maybe…
Colorado Avalanche: Gellin' and Propellin'!!!
by Mike @ MHH on Feb 20, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This just proves we all have hate in our heart. Whether it’s red and white or orange and blue, we can all agree that Detroit and Philly are cesspools of human excrement that have been visited on humanity due to our hubris to split the atom and undo what the Lord has wrought.
Colorado Avalanche: Gellin' and Propellin'!!!
by Mike @ MHH on Feb 20, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I meant orange and black. Damn you 5-Hour-Energy!!!!!!!!!!!!
Colorado Avalanche: Gellin' and Propellin'!!!
by Mike @ MHH on Feb 20, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rec’d (and it’s a good thing you quickly amended that – as a ’Cuse alum, I was about to take offense).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d take Foppa in his prime, Federov now. If it wasn’t for the years in Anaheim or Columbus, I’d probably change my mind.
How the HELL does Shaone Morrisonn keep getting a sweater?
by Whiter Mage on Feb 20, 2009 2:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
GDit, Fedorov.
How the HELL does Shaone Morrisonn keep getting a sweater?
by Whiter Mage on Feb 20, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
btw, JP, today you’re a “Rec”-in’ Machine! Oh God I hate myself.
How the HELL does Shaone Morrisonn keep getting a sweater?
by Whiter Mage on Feb 20, 2009 2:35 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I’m a “Rec”-ing ball.
Even worse.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 20, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm late to this discussion...
Both guys had the luxury of not having to be the #1 center on their teams (thanks to Stevie Y and Joe Sakic). Offensively, the guys are even. Defensively, slight edge to Feds. Intangibles: Forsberg, since he could play a physical game and was much more intimidating than Feds. Forsberg was built for the playoffs and would have been more likely to win me a Stanley Cup, so I’d go with him. (Although it’s not a bad decision to have to make!)
by topshelf_22304 on Feb 20, 2009 4:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I voted for Feds partially out of homerism, but the comments have convinced me that the prevailing opinion – Feds for a full career, Foppa in his prime or in a healthy fantasy world – is probably right answer.
by grapejoos on Feb 20, 2009 4:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Fedorov Breakdowns
As A wings fan, I did some retrospectives of Fedorov’s role in Soviet and Detroit hockey. Check it here.
http://redwingshardware.blogspot.com/2008/12/soviet-centers.html
or
http://redwingshardware.blogspot.com/2009/01/soviet-centers-statistical-breakdown.html
Cheers!
SA
by SA Angove on Feb 21, 2009 12:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, SA!
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Feb 21, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No brainer.
As a Wings fan, that was a no brainer. Sergei Fedorov all the way.
by Christy on Feb 22, 2009 2:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Washington
|
72 | 48 | 14 | 10 | 106 |
|
Atlanta
|
71 | 31 | 29 | 11 | 73 |
|
Carolina
|
71 | 30 | 33 | 8 | 68 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
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|
Florida
|
70 | 28 | 31 | 11 | 67 |
(updated 3.21.2010 at 8:42 AM EDT)
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