Mt. Capsmore
ESPN's John Buccigross picks Peter Bondra, Dale Hunter, Olie Kolzig and Alex Ovechkin as his top four Caps of all-time, using "a combination of impact, love and production determined by using both sides of the brain, some research and some feel." Is he right, or does someone get bumped for Rod Langway, Mike Gartner, Calle Johansson...?
over 3 years ago
J.P.
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Replace Bondra with Langway and you have it nailed
1. Langway
2. Hunter
3. Ovechkin
4. Kolzig
I love bondra, but rod’s arrival saved this franchise. I doubt this franchise survives the “Save the Caps” campaign without the Minister of Defense back there. Hunts is 2nd on the list as he was the heart and soul of this team for 10 years. The guy gave it everything he had. Ovi is going to be #1 very shortly, but he needs to win a playoff series first. He’ll knock that out by April. Olie basically replaced Hunter as the heart and soul of this team in the late 90s and backstopped us to our only SC Final visit, which is why he gets the nod over bondra.
Honorable mention: Bondra, Stevens, K. Miller, D. Maruk, Calle J
Dishonorable mention: K. Hatcher, J. Jagr, S. Gonchar, L. Murphy, B. Clement
Just out of curiosity, is Gonchar dishonorable for any reason other than signing with the Pens? Not saying that’s not enough, just wondering. He was my favorite Cap before the fire sale, and I kinda stopped paying attention to him after he was traded.
Gonchar the Traitor
Yes, it is because he signed with the Pens. And it didn’t help that he gave the Pens their series clinching goal in the 2001 1st round playoff series.
He is, however, on Martin Straka’s personal Mt. Rushmore for that gift.
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Rounding out Marty Straka’s Mt. Rushmore: Jags, Robert Lang and Alexei Kovalev
by Hooks Orpik on Feb 10, 2009 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
+1 on that top 4.
On a related note, what’s an ESPN?
"Good crowd out there tonight, boys, let's really try to win this one."
by Bald Pollack on Feb 10, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that’s probably my top four, if only b/c Bondra (my favorite Cap for a looong time) is so utterly trumped by Ovechkin.
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Hunter would not make my top 4 (or even 5)…
I go in order, Ovechkin, Langway, Gartner, Kolzig (Bondra would be #5 on my list with Hunter #6)
by CapsFanSince1979 on Feb 10, 2009 9:02 PM EST reply actions
With all do respect to Mike Gartner (and I am a fan of Gartner – I was pretty sad the day they traded him to the North Stars. That day sucked) Dale Hunter did more for this organization then Gartner did. What Hunter lacked in skill, he made up for with heart. He was the blood sweat and tears of Caps from the late 80’s and the nineties. He was a leader in every sense of the word. You needed a goal, he’d give the ugliest goal you could imagine; you need to win a face off – he’d do it. You need some toughness – lord knows he’d drop’em.
Garter is great a HOF’er. Hunter should be too if it wasn’t for the fact Montreal media didn’t hate him for his days in Quebec and the NY media didn’t hate him for that slightly late hit against a NY crybaby in the playoffs.
My order would be:
Langway
Hunter
Ovie
Kolzig
(Bondzia and Gartner are next)
by vt caps fan on Feb 10, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
Slightly Late :)
That is the sort of grit/edge that all of us love about Hunter but that was a disgrace. As you mentioned, that is one of the reasons that he isn’t considered for the HOF. Its a shame when something so silly goes such a long way toward defining your career.
If only everyone just remembered his goal against Philly.
My Four:
Kip Miller
Craig Berubi
Pete Peters
Ovi
Langway is beyond an all-star. He is a prototype, a legend. We may never again see a player like him. He’s the no-doubt #1.
Ovechkin is likewise just a different type of player. Bondra, Maruk, Gartner — these have all been the kind of people who in their prime could lead the league in one or two stats in an ordinary year. Ovechkin’s on another planet. He puts guys like that in his dust. And he could displace Langway one day as the Caps’ all time best — something I never expected to be able to say because Langway was such a singular talent.
Langway and Ovechkin are the easy #s 1 and 2. The rest of the list is harder.
Hunter’s combination of toughness, leadership and scoring really was unique. And he was a Cap for a very long time, and for a really important period for the franchise. I think he’s got to be the #3.
Kolzig is an “ordinary” franchise goalie, notable for his particular longevity and by the fact that he is the only consistently excellent goalie in Caps’ history. But just about every franchise has had someone of his talent at some point. Most of them didn’t last as long as Kolzig, but Kolzig wasn’t Patrick Roy. His impact is heightened because apart from him, this franchise really hasn’t had great goaltending overall.
Bondra is also an “ordinary” great sniper. Like Kolzig, Bondra lasted with one team longer than most great snipers, but just about every franchise has had someone of his talent at some point. And he would not be the best winger in most teams’ histories.
Gartner was Hank Aaron — consistently excellent for an amazing length of time, but he never pushed it up to that “sublime” level. If he hadn’t been traded away, he’d be an easy #3, above Hunter.
Calle Jo and Kelly Miller each get a nod for longevity. Scott Stevens, Kevin Hatcher, Jim Carey, Adam Oates, Bobby Carpenter, Dennis Maruk, Bengt Gustaffson, Ryan Walter and Sergei Gonchar all get nods for excellence for a relatively short period of time. (Larry Murphy maybe belongs on that last list, but I can’t stand him) Bobby Gould, Mike Ridley, Lou Franceschetti, and Steve Konowalchuk get nods for heart.
My final list of 4 is:
Langway
Ovechkin
Hunter
Gartner
But that last one was very hard. And on the current team, as long as Greenie keeps up his Paul Coffey impression, he’s the most likely to make his way on this list. Backstrom to me is an “ordinary” franchise playmaking center — Adam Oates’s equal in talent; Semin an “ordinary” franchise goal scorer — Bondra’s equal. They’ll have to either ramp it up a lot or last a very long time to displace one of the guys on this list.
by Gould Old Days on Feb 10, 2009 10:59 PM EST reply actions
Despite the fact that I grew momentarily ill from you calling Bonzai “"ordinary,”" i agree with both your logic and your list
by Pivonka, Michael Ridley on Feb 11, 2009 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
Don’t understand Gartner over Bondra. Bondra scored more goals in a Caps sweater and played more seasons in a Caps sweater at roughly the same level of production. Plus Bondra did it in the playoffs, which was the (probably unjustified) knock on Gartner.
by bilspacecadet on Feb 11, 2009 1:00 AM EST up reply actions
And Bondra did it in a tougher goal scoring era with arguably worse teammates on average. You’re pushing me in that direction. Like I said, #4 was very hard…
by Gould Old Days on Feb 11, 2009 1:42 AM EST up reply actions
I’m not certain I can agree with your analysis of Kolzig. He won 300 games for the Caps, which is not something a lot of goalies have done (currently #21 all-time – comparatively speaking, Bondra is #38 on the all-time goals list; Gartner is #6, but “only” scored 397 for the Caps). He carried this team to the finals and probably should have won the Conn Smythe had the Caps not been swept in the Finals.
I can’t argue against Langway, because I know enough to know that he belongs without having seen him play. I guess I should say the same about Gartner, but I think it’s pretty hard to put him on that list over Bondra (who played in more games, had more goals, and is the all-time leader in goals and points for the franchise, for now).
One thing is for sure: someone on Mt. Capsmore should honorarily wear Yvon Labre’s ’stache.
I’m a fan of the past (as a Leafs fan, well, it’s understandable), but Langway has got to be on the list. Not only is he regarded as one of the best defensive defenseman in history, he’s easily Taiwan’s greatest hockey player ever. If you’re the nation’s best player, it’s an automatic.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
For me, it depends on what I’m trying to accomplish. If I’m going for a “well-rounded” Mt. Capsmore it’s easy: I just pick a goalie, a defenseman, a forward, and a general favorite. Which gives me:
Kolzig
Langway
Ovechkin
Hunter
It gets harder if “well-rounded”-ness doesn’t matter but here goes:
Ovechkin – Do I need to explain?
Langway – Growing up he WAS the Capitals to me.
Kolzig – He HAS to be on this list if only because I wouldn’t otherwise know what a Stanley Cup game is like. I understand the “he seems better because Caps fans haven’t seen better” but it’s my Hell, Mt. Rushmore has Teddy Roosevelt and my Mt. Capsmore is going to have Kolzig.
The last spot is a tough call between Bondra and Hunter… and there is no way I could pick one and be happy with it. However, I’m leaning towards Bondra because (and I know this wasn’t entirely his doing) but he and Kolzig gave me faith in the Capitals as an organization back in the 90s. And yes I realize Hunter was there in 90s too, but there was something about Bondra that gave me faith in the future of the Caps. Also, I think Ovechkin skews my memories of how good Bondra was. I guess if forced I’ld have to say Bondra is the fourth.
I love Gartner, but like I said Langway was the Caps to me in the 80s. And when he was traded, for some odd reason, I felt betrayed him as if didn’t want to be Cap. It didn’t help that I always thought he enjoyed being a Ranger more than a Cap… I know it’s crazy, but that’s my warped mind for you.
BTW, I would be remiss if I didn’t say one word: Pivonka. I haven’t seen him mentioned yet and although he doesn’t belong in the top 4, I just hate not seeing his name mentioned in this discussion.
Teddy Roosevelt...
greatest president who ever lived. Just sayin’ :-)
Speaking of Teddy Roosevelt, you might get a kick out of this
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No South Bowie Love?
What about Yvon Labre?
I can’t make a case that he’s better than the agreed upon top six here. But c’mon, the man was my neighbor!
I was born in the latter part of the 70s and moved to DC when I was three… so, for me, Labre was just that guy in the rafters I didn’t know. I understand his “Original Cap” allure, but I just haven’t seemed to be able to connect to that as strongly as others.
I’m in the same boat. I’ve never actually heard anyone make a really compelling argument for why Labre’s number has been retired.
What I have heard, is that the Caps needed to have something hanging from the rafters and Labre was there.
He does/did have a great ’stache.
Unsung List
Perhaps this is for another thread, but it’d be an interesting discussion:
Who were the unsung guys, then or now, that you always loved to watch?
Laich, Konowalchuk, Kaminski, Duchesne, Franceshetti, Christian…
As others have mentioned, I say Langway replaces Bondra. Bondra was the man, at one point he had scored more goals than anybody in the league not named Jagr over a 3 or 4 season stretch but Langway helped make this franchise legit, and take the next crucial step.
1) Ovechkin
2) Kolzig
3) Hunter
4) Langway
This is a tougher list than Mt. Capsmore
But, I couldn’t see it without Kelly Miller. In 30 years of Cap fandom, I can only think of one other player who so obviously left it all on the ice every shift. Dale Hunter is on my mountain, so Kelly Miller has to be on the unsung sculpture.
you’re right – I had Miller (Kelly, not Kip) on the list, but replaced him with Kono since the rest were all more or less contemporaries, and Kono was at least a little younger…..neither left very much on the ice after 60.
by Pi on Feb 11, 2009 8:57 AM EST up reply actions
But only one had the spin-o-rama:
my Mt. Unsungmore:
Pivo (remember how Gretzky singled him out in his book?)
K. Miller (I’ll let you guess which of the three)
Calle
Gould (Hello, Mr. Lemieux)
I feel like Ridley was properly “sung” in the day, as was Gus.
by bilspacecadet on Feb 11, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
True...
It is hard to remember those teams without pairing Miller and Ridley as a tandem. Ridley did get more of the attention, but game after game, I left the arena thinking “I really like the way that guy plays”.
It’s tough — is this unsung now or unsung at the time?
Ridley always flew under the radar — I’d go so far to say that folks took him for granted while he was playing.
On the other hand, Kono and Gould were very much appreciated at the time. Think of all the good praise Chris Clark gets when he’s healthy and playing well. (I know, it’s been a while since we saw that Captain Clark) But I definitely agree that Gould and Kono are easily forgotten these days. Franceschetti is like that for me too — people appreciated him when he was here, but he never made gaudy numbers.
Boyd Gordon, Matt Bradley and Brooks Laich are starting to put that kind of career together. For my money, Laich is captain material.
by Gould Old Days on Feb 11, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
I am surprised on the lack of unanimity on Dale Hunter. He's a lock for Mt. Capsmore.
I have yet to see a player evolve throughout his career the way Dale Hunter did. Up until 1994 he was a top-line center, averaging a point a game and playing the PP and PK on some very good Cap teams. And the man delivered in the clutch. In the mid-90s, upon realizing that his skills were in decline, he switched to a defensive role, anchoring a line with Miller and Kono, arguably one of the most productive checking lines ever. That’s EVER! In the late 90s he morphed yet again to be a 4th line center, bringing incredible energy to his less frequent shifts. Hunter anchored a nasty line with Berube and Chris Simon which scared the bejeezus out of opponents and was likely the main storyline – other than a toe in the crease – to why we beat an evenly-matched Bruins squad in Round 1 of the 1998 playoffs.
Oh, and did I mention that the man’s heart was bigger than anyone else’s, that he scored extremely timely goals and added a dimension of toughness rarely found, even in NHL players?
The discussion shouldn’t be about whether Hunter is a top-4 Cap – that’s a no-brainer. The argument should be about why he isn’t in the HOF. If this guy played in a big hockey market, it would have been a done deal awhile ago. But since he played in two hockey outposts and incurred the wrath of Bettman, he basically has no chance.
Hunter in the HOF? He may be a Caps legend, but his stats and lack of any discernible awards/honours doesn’t seem to merit the Hall of Fame. Hunter was never one of the best players when he played, and I’m not sure I agree with you about him anchoring the “most productive checking lines ever”. That’s a lot of history you’re bypassing just so you can prop up Hunter’s credentials.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
I disagree on stats. There are things Hunter did statistically that maybe only 2 or 3 other players in NHL history did. PIMs are a stat too, and an important one. Football’s HOF doesn’t induct enough linemen, and the NHL doesn’t induct enough defensive defensemen or players with heart like Hunter.
I think in 10 years they’ll be talking about Hunter around the league more than they talk about a guy like Gartner. There’s a reason Hunter got that “honorary” bid to the All Star game near the end of his career.
But don’t worry about Hunter. In 25 years he’ll be in the hall of fame. As much for his coaching record as for his playing days…
by Gould Old Days on Feb 11, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
NHL doesn’t induct enough defensive defensemen or players with heart like Hunter.
I’ll fully give you the first part, but you’re saying that the Hall is currently lacking “heart”, which is not only a value judgment, but it’s can’t be compared. If you went to a Leafs fan and said Hunter had a bigger “heart” than recently honoured Wendel Clark, they would say you’re out of your mind. It’s also sort of insulting to suggest that the guys who are already in the HHOF don’t measure up to Hunter’s will or courage.
And aside from PIMs (which they honoured players like Tiger Williams quite willingly for said stat), what other stats are you referring to that Hunter achieved that no other player in history has done?
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
I'm with topshelf
If not for that hit on the Island, he would have gotten some consideration. I also agree that it is true that had he played in Montreal or Toronto, he might well be in. Those teams surely hated to play against him.
Really? You think Hunter would be in simply because he played for Toronto? Hunter may be deified with the Leafs, but that doesn’t in any way influence the Hall voters. Otherwise, Gilmour and Clark, as two recent examples would already be in the hall of fame.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Not "In", but he may have gotten more consideration...
No argument on Gilmour or Clark- great players both. We could argue forever over the inclusion or exclusion of hundreds of players. I watched from Row A at the Cap Center and saw a guy who laid it all out, night after night, and lead his team in a hundred small ways for many seasons.
It’s the fan in me talking, for sure, but thinking the HOF decisions have any basis in any specific, tangible or otherwise, is a mistake. Look at what it took Art Monk to make the NFL Hall: He retired as statistically the best player at his position in the history of the league, yet took 8 tries to get in. The voters could create a thousand excuses not to vote him in. In Huntsy’s case, the hit on Turgeon put a stain that gives those voters an easy out.
Playing in Washington, as opposed to a Canadien city, where hockey is king, couldn’t have helped. That’s all I’m saying.
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