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Around SBN: The Worst Team Ever Projected?

Canada's Prospective D - By The Numbers

Inspired by this discussion over at PPP, I went to the trouble of hitting up NHL.com's stat pages and Behind the Net for a little bit of argument fodder. And if that inspiration was the desire to defend Mike Green's defensive skillz from a bunch of ignoramuses, well, who can blame me?

Boy did I walk into a world of interesting numbers.

Knowing that I was looking for guys who were good in all situations, I compiled a spreadsheet (found here) of all the Canadian D-men in the discussion for Canada's Olympic team, their current +/-, and their TOI, GF/60, GA/60, and +/- at 4v5, 5v5, and 5v4. Just for fun and because someone brought up the name, I tacked in Jeff Schultz for good measure.

Star-divide

PPP's picks for the Canadian Olympic team, in short, are: Chris Pronger, Shea Weber, Duncan Keith, Brent Seabrook, Robyn Regehr, Dan Boyle, and Drew Doughty. Let's take a look at each situation individually, keeping in mind that the TOI / G for each situation is intended to show how much that player is relied on for that situation for their team.

4v5 (Penalty Kill)

The average +/- for all of these guys 4v5 came up to a tad under -6 - expected for a PK situation. What I didn't expect was to see both Chris Pronger (-6.77) and Robyn Regehr (-9.03!) fare relatively badly in this stat, and Robyn Regehr to be absolutely brutal. Calgary is right in the middle of the pack for PK% at 80.4%, so there's no excuse for Regehr there. Pronger gets more of a pass there; PHI's PK% in general at 78.0% isn't so hot. Knowing Philly, though, I was a little surprised to see him not be on the ice for any SH goals so far. Niedermayer (-9.45) is even worse.

Mike Green's right in the middle of the pack at -5.86, but he doesn't see as much time on the PK as others in this discussion, and certainly he's above average. Jeff Schultz at -5.25 fares reasonably well in the group of OK PKers.

Duncan Keith (-1.95) and Jay Bouwmeester (-2.87) absolutely shine here - they're their teams' go-to PKers and for good reason. Both have surprisingly good SH GF/60, meaning that a PK can be a shorthanded threat when they are on the ice. These guys would be Canada's primary PK'ers.

5v5 (Even Strength)

Oh hai there, Jeff Schultz (+2.26 +/- / 60). Don't you just look nice smoking absolutely everybody else on this list. Your partner Green (+1.78) doesn't look so bad either, given that the average is +.44 for all of these guys.

Jay Bouwmeester's a good ES dude, too (+1.24). Chris Pronger (+.86) isn't a slouch either, and neither is Drew Doughty (+1.1). But Regehr (-.13) and Weber (-.25), you guys have some catching up to do at ES if you want a ticket to Vancouver. Everyone else is middle of the pack.

Oh, and ... Niedermayer (-.53) isn't so lovely here either.

5v4 (Power Play)

Average +/- / 60 for all of these guys: +6.08.

Think Mike Green's a PP specialist? He sees far more PP ice time than anyone else on this list, and has the second/best +/- / 60 of everyone at +7.98. (The only one better is Duncan Keith(+10.55), and at 2:17 / G, I have to think somewhat limited sample size. Still, Keith's no slouch here.) That .8 GA/60, though ... hm. Shorties against are bad, Ray, but look on the bright side - a lot more shorties happen for other people than you.

Chris Pronger also gets plenty of PP time and is no slouch (+7.82). Same for Dan Boyle (+7.55). Regehr has decent numbers (+7.64) but doesn't see much time on the PP. Niedermayer is actually reasonable here, although there are better at +6.79.

J-Bo (+4.84) -- well, let's just say that his PP isn't his strong point. Same for Shea Weber (+4.68).

Interestingly, Jeff Schultz is right in the middle of the pack at +7.06, but he only sees 20 ticks / game of PP ice time, so limited sample size ahoy. I think we can safely throw that tidbit out :)

Conclusions

So. Based on all of this, who do I have to take to Vancouver with me if I'm Steve Yzerman? Here's my list, in no particular order, based solely on numbers: 

  1. Jay Bouwmeester - absolute beast on PK and ES. PP, not so much, but that's okay, I think Canada can find scoring on its PP. Just a hunch. 
  2. Duncan Keith - he's your go-to special teams guy, but not too shabby at ES.
  3. Chris Pronger - ♫ A little bit of nasty on your team ♫, plus decent stats on PP and at ES. He's not the best at anything, but he's good at all of them. 
  4. Dan Boyle - he's got all three. Can't ask for more.
  5. Drew Doughty - again, young he may be, but he's strong in all three situations. 
  6. Brent Seabrook - ditto Dan Boyle, though he doesn't spend a lot of time on the PP either.
  7. Mike Green - His ES is very strong, as is his PP, but whether he works depends on whether Yzerman is willing to play fast and furious and let him jump into the play. Put him in if Canada is struggling on the PP or on ES breakouts. 

No, I wasn't seriously saying send Jeff Schultz, I was just giving the haters something to think about in this analysis. Sorry, Scott Niedermayer - when you're below the middle of the pack in 2 out of 3 categories, I can't justify including you. Same for Robyn Regehr - hitting does not an effective defenseman make.

Whew. Please don't throw too many rotten tomatoes - I'm not a genius at this and I welcome all thoughtful commentary, including how I can make this a deeper and more meaningful analysis.

UPDATE: I have added Relative Corsi (the difference between Corsi when the player is on the ice and when the player is off) for each player for each situation. It's intended to show whether and by how much the player in question adds to or subtracts from the situation in question. Hopefully this takes care of the argument of QualTeam / QualComp and the relative team strength problem in one fell swoop.

The numbers are eye-opening to say the least. I'm still digesting the numbers (and I have real work to do), so I'll post my thoughts on these a little later today. One thing does jump out at me, though - who's got positive Corsi in all three situations?

If this FanPost is written by someone other than one of the blog's editors, the opinions expressed in it do not necessarily reflect those of this blog or SB Nation.

Comment 38 comments  |  13 recs  | 

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Great stuff and rec’d. I’m still digesting some of this stuff but the only suggestion I have now is maybe adding QualTeam and QualComp for the different situations since that’s where PPP fought back when I pointed out that Green had better PK numbers than Shea Weber. That was probably the biggest shock to me and they basically tried to assume the conclusion away with QualComp and QualTeam arguments.

You're the reason that I hate Nova Scotia.

by Rob Parker on Dec 8, 2009 6:46 PM EST reply actions  

I’ll see if I can get some time later today to add in Corsi for each of these – that’ll take care of that argument.

Unleash the Alex!

by gotsparkly on Dec 9, 2009 8:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh hai there, Jeff Schultz

Rec’d just for that.

Well that and all the, you know, numbers ‘n’ stuff.

ALEX, FЯEE

by EmilyB on Dec 8, 2009 6:51 PM EST reply actions  

Hell yeah, I think after our Pickup Game we should have a “The Room” showing…

Fehr is fair, but I like Laich

by amkcaps on Dec 8, 2009 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately, I will have to go to work after the pickup game, it looks like.

Unleash the Alex!

by gotsparkly on Dec 9, 2009 8:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Definitely a Rec’d.

The thing is though, I think these numbers have to be historic as well – an argument for Boyle (who in mind, is the one Green will have to replace if he takes a spot – him or Doughty) is the consistency Boyle has in playing very well these past couple of years.

I wish we could take into consideration some intangibles – I mean, a really good argument for Seabrook is how well he plays with Keith (who’s most certainly a TC lock). Personally I like most of the guys on the PPP list – I’d probably swap out Regehr for one of JayBo or Nieds (you really just can’t ignore that wealth of experience, and on such a poor Anaheim team, I don’t know if this year’s stats justify him not going). FWIW I think Doughty makes an excellent 7th, if only bc he’s good enough to be a quasi-lock for 2014, and it’ll be nice to have some previous Olympic experience on the 2014 squad (in addition to Keith/Seabrook).

by Vinn on Dec 8, 2009 7:42 PM EST reply actions  

Historic over what period of time, do you think? Should they cover last year’s season? Playoffs? I think that for the Olympics, you have to think in the now – every other sport’s athletes have to qualify for the Olympics, and that’s based on the now, so I think that basing it on regular-season performance is not entirely unreasonable.

I think Niedermayer is losing a step; if I had to swap Regehr for one of the two you mentioned, it’d have to be JayBo.

One thing, though, that I noticed on sleeping on it — who in this group has good point shots?

Unleash the Alex!

by gotsparkly on Dec 9, 2009 8:22 AM EST up reply actions  

hm. Boyle and Keith are fine and Pronger’s decent as well. Jay-Bo I think plays point, and I swear he was better on the Florida PP, but I don’t watch enough of the Calgary games to figure out what’s up with him this year on the PP.

With Canada’s forward crop, they really just need to get it through and watch the forwards go to work though. Lots of the Canadian forwards can play point.

by Vinn on Dec 9, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Shea Weber has a bomb.

You're the reason that I hate Nova Scotia.

by Rob Parker on Dec 9, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

how often does he unleash it?

by RedBirdie on Dec 9, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

He’s the go to on the NSH PP. He blasted one by us when we played NSH, right?

You're the reason that I hate Nova Scotia.

by Rob Parker on Dec 9, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Basically, he’s not Juice. He’s got a shot and knows how to use it.

You're the reason that I hate Nova Scotia.

by Rob Parker on Dec 9, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

ah, good to know. I know know western conference guys that aren’t Red Wings nearly as well as I should.

by RedBirdie on Dec 9, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but he was the trailer on the rush and someone blew their assignment picking him up. He got the puck in full stride, just like the all-star skills competition, and absolutely destroyed it.

Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!

by Knee high to a duck on Dec 9, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I saw some commentary (at least a couple weeks ago) that Stevie Y favors guys who have played together.

ALEX, FЯEE

by EmilyB on Dec 8, 2009 7:48 PM EST reply actions  

So 55 goes too?

by 718CapsFan on Dec 8, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

You thought Yzerman and Lowe were looking at Pronger the other night? Think again!

ALEX, FЯEE

by EmilyB on Dec 8, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Great job and thanks for putting this up as a fanpost. I think your choices are spot on.

I know certain people in the Rink and elsewhere have Jay Bowmeester issues, but the guy is solid. F&B is right that he’s not as good offensively as some seem to think. However, he is still an elite D-man in my mind and the numbers seem to agree.

Who in the hell would ever bring up Jeff Schultz’s name???

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Dec 8, 2009 10:30 PM EST reply actions  

Well, he was drafted ahead of Mike Green…

Caps fan in Minnesota

by ennisj471 on Dec 9, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions  

And Anton Gustaffson was drafted ahead of John Carlson. :)

Unleash the Alex!

by gotsparkly on Dec 9, 2009 8:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Alex Daigle in front of CP

by red army line on Dec 9, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

JBo is making me look bad this year, but Alan Ryder agrees that he was overrated last year. And I don’t care how good he skates and how pretty it looks when he passes, he’s just not that much of an offensive threat. He’s not close to top 7 best offensive Canadian D (I know, that’s not what they are being selected on, I’m just saying he’s only elite on one side of the blueline).

You're the reason that I hate Nova Scotia.

by Rob Parker on Dec 9, 2009 1:01 AM EST up reply actions  

The numbers bear that out, F&B, although I wonder now whether that has anything to do with how good Calgary’s PP is and how they use him on it.

Unleash the Alex!

by gotsparkly on Dec 9, 2009 8:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I think F&B did just to pull chains, but the numbers suggest that maybe that isn’t as horrid as one might initially think, and certainly the haters don’t have a lot to stand on.

Later today if I can get some time, I’ll tack in Corsi to this spreadsheet just to adjust for QualTeam and QualComp, and see if that affects my choices.

Unleash the Alex!

by gotsparkly on Dec 9, 2009 8:14 AM EST up reply actions  

good angle. Among the accusations at PPP re: both Green and Schultz was that they play ‘soft’ minutes (based on QT and QC). And now that they’re playing together

Support your local bakery!

by bigonetimer on Dec 9, 2009 8:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I think the difference there is that Boudreau, unlike many coaches, doesn’t match lines, so that will affect QualTeam and QualComp.

I’ll look and see whether that is actually true; I’m not sure of that either way.

Unleash the Alex!

by gotsparkly on Dec 9, 2009 9:01 AM EST up reply actions  

They do play soft minutes

And it’s interesting that QualComp and QualTeam were omitted from the spreadsheet. Looking forward to seeing when they are added.

One thing to keep in mind is that the main argument wasn’t that Green was terrible just that he wasn’t top 7. He’d likely be 8-10. Unfortunately, those guys don’t go to the Olympics.

And it was only one game but Saturday’s game was basically a infomercial for why Green should not be heading out west.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Dec 13, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure, I can tack those in for you, although the reason for omitting them from the spreadsheet was to keep it readable. Too many columns and it gets unwieldy. Corsi was intended to factor that in, though, but if you’d like to see QualTeam and QualComp, I’m up for that this evening when I get home.

Unleash the Alex!

by gotsparkly on Dec 16, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

The thing is, if you look at Jeff Schultz’s numbers, he’s hanging with the big boys numbers-wise despite less TOI. I think the low Corsi on the PP is a function less of ineffectiveness than of little to no time on the PP. Again, I’m not suggesting that he should necessarily be named to the Canadian team, but I am suggesting that his haters can shut their pieholes.

Unleash the Alex!

by gotsparkly on Dec 9, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

#needsfewerhaters

Support your local bakery!

by bigonetimer on Dec 9, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

It’s also a function of playing soft minutes.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Dec 13, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Very good set of arguments, now that I’ve had a chance to read it through. :-)

Is there anyone else you can see as a stand-out Canadian defenseman other than the ones listed over at PPP? Just for curiosity’s sake…

FЯEED ALEX! NOW LOOK OUT, NHL!

by IRockTheRed on Dec 9, 2009 8:52 AM EST reply actions  

Per Canadian media and general consensus – they’re looking at (the ones missing from PPP’s list): Green, Phaneuf, Jay-Bo, Nieds.

by Vinn on Dec 9, 2009 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m sure they’ve at least given

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Dec 10, 2009 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Vlasic a cursory look before they named the 16. I’m guessing they see him as too young.

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Dec 10, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

After watching tonights game I can tell what’s on my mind just reading that. I read it as

Varly good set of arguments

had to do a double take haha

They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.

by Bman21212 on Dec 9, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Sparkly – you rule.

We should all remember this about any type of analysis: when you posit a theory and back it up with stats/empirical evidence, it is no less valid or meaningful or advantageous than any other, even if you dont commandeer a blog or write for MSM.

Nicely done.

by S h a g g y on Dec 9, 2009 12:29 PM EST reply actions  

Hey totaly unrelated but

 I would make this a fanshot but I can’t (on iPod) but if anyone wants some data on OHL players (like Delly) the go here http://ohlprospects.blogspot.com/

by washfan29 on Dec 10, 2009 11:11 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

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