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Around SBN: Which Players Will Join The 3,000-Hit Club?

"That would be correct. That's the name of the game. Why, is that against the rules now?... Run, chase, hunt down, hit, whatever word you want to use that would be correct."

over 2 years ago Jp_avatar_2_tiny J.P. 304 comments 0 recs  | 

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Comments

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The issue of “team toughness” – now front and center.

by Stephen Pepper on Nov 3, 2009 2:42 PM EST reply actions  

Now?

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 3, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s been the strategy of every other team for the last four years. I’m just surprised it was Columbus of all clubs that it count for something.

tictactoehockey.blogspot.com
myunjustifiedego.blogspot.com

by turnituptoeleven on Nov 3, 2009 2:44 PM EST reply actions  

If I was handicapping which team would be successful in getting to Ovechkin, Columbus would have been in the bottom third, not that the lack physical toughness, but that they generally play a more structured defenseive game that doesn’t much allow for taking runs at players.

If you've read this far...seek help.

by ThePeerless on Nov 3, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

  • made it count for something. Whoops.

tictactoehockey.blogspot.com
myunjustifiedego.blogspot.com

by turnituptoeleven on Nov 3, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

“hunt down”? really? that seems to indicate a level of malicious intent that I’m not entirely comfortable with.

Make sure you check out Chimera’s comments at the end. Chicken shit.

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 2:46 PM EST reply actions  

I wouldn’t worry about semantics. I’d worry that teams feel they can do whatever they want against the Caps without fear of retribution.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 3, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly. This one is on us, not them.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it’s a little on the refs, too – they had seven skaters on the ice when the scrum happened and were not called for a penalty. Had we done the same, we probably would have been called.

Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood...Make big plans, aim high in hope and work. - Daniel H. Burnham

Fan Clubs: Sloan, Schultz

by gotsparkly on Nov 3, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

No offense, but that last statement is better served for May, if (when?) the Caps are letting another lower seeded team back into a playoff series.

"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."

by Bald Pollack on Nov 3, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Huh? No, seriously, I don’t see what you’re getting at. All I’m doing is pointing out a fact.

Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood...Make big plans, aim high in hope and work. - Daniel H. Burnham

Fan Clubs: Sloan, Schultz

by gotsparkly on Nov 3, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

White jerseys blend in better with the ice, eh?

Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.

by jordanDC on Nov 3, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Heh. I’m not presuming to comment.

Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood...Make big plans, aim high in hope and work. - Daniel H. Burnham

Fan Clubs: Sloan, Schultz

by gotsparkly on Nov 3, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

All I’m doing is pointing out a fact.

OK, wasn’t sure if there was another “us vs. the League” opinion which required some talk.

"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."

by Bald Pollack on Nov 3, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

No. Just pointing out that there were seven skaters on the ice for Columbus at the time the scrum happened :)

Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood...Make big plans, aim high in hope and work. - Daniel H. Burnham

Fan Clubs: Sloan, Schultz

by gotsparkly on Nov 3, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

“He’s a very unique player because he gives it and he takes it. He doesn’t whine or cry about getting hit. He has fun in that role because the more you give it to him, the more he gives it back.

“At least get him a little distracted so he’s doing something other than putting the puck in the back of the net. He was coming after us and having fun and we were coming after him and having fun.”

sounds less “malicious” put this way – helps to have a little more context

"No Brooks Laich, no win. Know Brooks Laich, know win."

by kellobellow on Nov 3, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I was just about to write something similar…

Follow me on Twitter @KellyinDC...

by KellyinDC on Nov 3, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

great kelly minds think alike? :)

"No Brooks Laich, no win. Know Brooks Laich, know win."

by kellobellow on Nov 3, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Obviously! :)

Follow me on Twitter @KellyinDC...

by KellyinDC on Nov 3, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I don’t think Hitchcock is telling his players anything different than any other coach in the league.

Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.

by jordanDC on Nov 3, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

In other news, water is wet.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 2:48 PM EST reply actions  

Yep. If nothing else, hopefully this gets some guys to grow up.

"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."

by Bald Pollack on Nov 3, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

wish i had known that when i knocked a glass over on my keyboard….

by twistedlogic on Nov 3, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Way to stay classy, Columbus.

IS PAЯTY NOW

by EmilyB on Nov 3, 2009 2:50 PM EST reply actions  

Exactly why isn’t that classy? Do you have any doubt that 29 other teams in the league don’t employ the same strategy? How exactly do you think most teams defend against the stars? How many people on this very site have cried for a BAMF Dman to put Crosby on his ass should he so much as fart in the general direction of our goalie? It’s hockey, folks. Don’t get your knickers in a twist just because someone was honest about how teams want to play AO. You think the Montreal Canadiens broke his nose and laid him flat on his back by accident?

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

BAMF = a series of curse adjectives?

I think that the words Hitchcock used—hunt, etc—are associated with dirty play (i.e. headhunting). If he had gone out and said “We just made sure we were aware when he was on the ice and had a couple of guys follow him and try to knock him off the puck before he gains speed” then no one would care.

by red army line on Nov 3, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I thought it was bi*** at the beginning, but unfortunately got the rest.

by red army line on Nov 3, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

and there’s the Dane Cook lesson of the day

by hockeyman33 on Nov 3, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

You and some of the others are just getting hung up on the semantics of the words used. Hitchcock was just being honest: when a star player is on the ice the other team targets them and tries to punish them. Did they blindside AO when he wasn’t near the puck? No. Did they miss any chance to lay the body on him? No. Did it work? Yes. You can view hunt as clean or dirty depending on how you want to interpret it but the bottom line is the same: Hitchcock is just being honest about how CBJ and 28 other teams try to defend AO. If the Caps can’t hack it then they either need to do something about it or they are in the wrong sport.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that’s the reason for this, and I was trying to play the devil’s advocate. Hitchcock’s quote sounds like something BB would say, so I’m not allowed to have a problem with it.

by red army line on Nov 3, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

So are the Caps going to run, chase, hunt down, & hit Nash on April 03? I mean if their coach thinks it’s Ok for their team to do it to Ovie he should have no problem when other teams do it to Nash, right?

Chimera said Capitals defenseman Shaone Morrisonn challenged him to a fight late in the third period.

“One guy challenged me, the Morrisonn guy,” Chimera said." I don’t know his first name. he’s a defenseman. It was going into overtime. I wasn’t going to fight then . . . I’m not the guy to turn down a fight, but we’re headed into overtime at that point. I play in overtime. I wanted to make something happen in overtime."

SMo, next time just start hitting the guy in the face repeatedly, forget about challenging him.

by CapsFan2020 on Nov 3, 2009 2:53 PM EST reply actions  

SMo, next time just start hitting the guy in the face repeatedly, forget about challenging him do your fucking job in the first or second period instead of waiting until the end of a close game.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Absolutely, I know that if someone were to hit me or someone I care about, I’m not asking the perpetrator if he wants to fight, I start throwing punches right of way. That’s how the Caps should have reacted in this case, plain and simple. Someone even punched Green in the face several times, I don’t know if anyone else saw that. Green punched back a couple of times but the other guy definitely got in a few good ones.

by CapsFan2020 on Nov 3, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

AFAIC, the Caps should feel absolutely free to do this to Nash in their next meeting.

Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood...Make big plans, aim high in hope and work. - Daniel H. Burnham

Fan Clubs: Sloan, Schultz

by gotsparkly on Nov 3, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

AFAIC, the Caps should feel absolutely free to do this to Nash in their next meeting do this every time they face Rick Nash, or any other scoring stud in the NHL.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough.

Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood...Make big plans, aim high in hope and work. - Daniel H. Burnham

Fan Clubs: Sloan, Schultz

by gotsparkly on Nov 3, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

And they should be doing it…. the best way to stop Nash, Malkin, Iginla, etc. is to get in their face and hit them.

Not always easy to do, mind you as evidenced by Nash’s great move past Green in the second period (I can’t fault Green too much on that, there’s a reason Nash makes the big $$).

Let's go Caps!

by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 3, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the team needs to make a statement in the next few games, blow teams out of the water, play out of their minds, win like they should have been winning with AO. They need to view this not as a handicap, but as an opportunity for each and every one of them to step out from the great 8’s shadow just a tiny bit, and maybe shut a few people up.

"And next year it will be ours."

by Ovechwin on Nov 3, 2009 3:00 PM EST reply actions  

…and abuse a couple of stars :)

Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood...Make big plans, aim high in hope and work. - Daniel H. Burnham

Fan Clubs: Sloan, Schultz

by gotsparkly on Nov 3, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m all in favor. Don’t want anyone thinking about going after any more of our guys.

by gfcaps fan on Nov 3, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Hitchcock...

The guy isn’t doing anything that 29 other coaches in the league don’t tell their guys to do with AO. They tell them to get in his way, hit him hard, hit him clean. I don’t think that the coaching was out of line. What was out of line was Chimera and his hit (which was illegal, hence he got a penalty).

Don’t think Bruce isn’t telling the guys to go out there and get in the face of Malkin, Crosby, Datsyuk, Gaborik, etc. and make their lives miserable. I am sure he is.

Star hockey players get hit, they get hurt, it’s a rough game, and they are targets. They have to accept that role when they play. Sometimes the play crosses the line a little (like Chimera) or a lot (like Chris Simon).

This injury should have very little impact on the team in the long term, unless AO needs something like surgery (and there are no indications that he does need anything other than some rest and nachos in the pressbox). The Caps will be fine.

Let's go Caps!

by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 3, 2009 3:05 PM EST reply actions  

Nachos in the pressbox? I hope the nachos at MSG are better than the ones at the Phone Booth, otherwise I’d have to think you’re suggesting poisoning him.

Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood...Make big plans, aim high in hope and work. - Daniel H. Burnham

Fan Clubs: Sloan, Schultz

by gotsparkly on Nov 3, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, he mentioned that in his remarks. I figure the nachos in Newark are probably alright. Haven’t been to the new arena there yet.

Let's go Caps!

by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 3, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

i dunno about the nachos, but the zeppole (sp?) is damn good.

very nice arena, too – i have some friends in that area who i convinced to get tickets last year.

"No Brooks Laich, no win. Know Brooks Laich, know win."

by kellobellow on Nov 3, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Sounds like a field trip at some point.

Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood...Make big plans, aim high in hope and work. - Daniel H. Burnham

Fan Clubs: Sloan, Schultz

by gotsparkly on Nov 3, 2009 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Ovie loves VC nachos. its a little weird. He’s frequently spotted with them at basketball games

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Twenty-something men just don’t have taste buds.

by gfcaps fan on Nov 3, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Even shitty nachos are good.

Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.

by jordanDC on Nov 3, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Definitely not true, and take this as a warning: do NOT order the chicken nachos at Bar Louie. Just don’t.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 3, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Their wings aren’t bad. I’m sad the one in Champaign closed down

by renstar on Nov 3, 2009 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ve had those. I didn’t think they were that bad, but I believe I got them during the half price app happy hour.

Wait, now that I remember, I believe they showed up cold with congealed cheese and rubbery meat cubes on them.

by Cluster on Nov 3, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

OVERCOMPLICATED nachos are bad. Shitty nachos are not.

Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.

by jordanDC on Nov 3, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Bar Louie’s nachos are not complicated. They’re shitty. And terrible.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 3, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

but DO order the buffalo chicken pizza

www.wiseadvertising.com

Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.

by Sombrero Guy on Nov 3, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Are we talking about shitty nachos here?

Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood...Make big plans, aim high in hope and work. - Daniel H. Burnham

Fan Clubs: Sloan, Schultz

by gotsparkly on Nov 3, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I like the VC nachos too, but I try not to get them too often (too expensive…)

Let's go Caps!

by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 3, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Ovi just charges his to Ted’s suite.

IS PAЯTY NOW

by EmilyB on Nov 3, 2009 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Slim gonna have to sit this one out

“Naw, man. You ain’t down with that. You don’t get all gangsta wild and shit. Naw. You got fuckin beef with them? This shit is on you.”

Avon may as well have been speaking to BB.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 3:14 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Does this mean...

We can call Coach Hitchcock Snotboogie?

Ron and Fez 11 to 3

by YvonLabresMoustache on Nov 3, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah man, he’s Clay Davis. Kinda fits, actually.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

He’s not cool enough to be Senator Davis.

Ron and Fez 11 to 3

by YvonLabresMoustache on Nov 3, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

He’s fat enough and obnoxious enough, and he fits perfectly into that scene I quoted.

BB: “He [targeted AO].”

Avon: “You a fuckin [finesse coach], man. I told you he was gone do that. What I tell you about them fuckin away games,hunh”

BB: “Well, now he got to go.”

Avon: “Naw, man. You ain’t down with that. You don’t get all gangsta wild and shit. Naw. You got fuckin beef with them? This shit is on you.”

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

The Wire references should be daily occurrences.

"If you're gonna die after 24, might as well jump out at 23:59, no?"

by Laich It Or Lump It on Nov 3, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh I can do it…

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Me too. My favorite show of all time.

"If you're gonna die after 24, might as well jump out at 23:59, no?"

by Laich It Or Lump It on Nov 3, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

The Simpsons, the Wire — this is why we’re elite.

"Camaraderie, that's what the Washington Capitals are all about."

by CapitalCentre on Nov 3, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

and the occasional South Park reference and photos.

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Going to start bringing these in force.

Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.

by jordanDC on Nov 3, 2009 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Extremely relevant to the Chimera situation if you know the scene.

Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.

by jordanDC on Nov 3, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

you gotta get up in that ass, larry

by aaw6848 on Nov 3, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Eat snickers, throw garbage!

Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.

by jordanDC on Nov 4, 2009 6:25 AM EST up reply actions  

rec’d for Barksdale ref and the truth.

Let’s do a quick review of the weekend – You go after Ovi nothing happens. Literally nothing. You go after Shane Doan and you get a pack of wild dogs on your *ss the rest of the night. Which team do you think other NHL teams would prefer to play if given the choice?

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Nov 3, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

It helps that Doan actually stuck up for himself. Normally it’s poor form to throw more punches when the guy is down on the ice but I think in the case of Doan I can live with it because he was sticking up for himself after a bush-league hit. Teach that punk a lesson.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Doan actually went after him in the next period. He was in no shape immediately after the hit. The best part in my mind was right after the hit. Yandle going after Wisniewski. Outside of Lepisto maybe he’d have been the last guy anyone would have voted as most likely to retaliate. Yandle obviously couldn’t handle Wisniewski, but the fact he tried to and got the instigator says something.

Whole rest of the night anytime a Yote could line up Wisniewski they did. They sent the message loud and clear. You mess with one of us, especially our captain, its going be a long night and you are going to hurt like hell in the morning.

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Nov 3, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I realized Doan took a while to get his revenge. I loved all of it. The team tried to send the message but when Doan finally unscrambled his brain he let Wis know that he wasn’t backing down from his own fight either. Looked like that last shot he got in while Wis was down was a pretty solid blow to the head.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup last one he got in before the lineman pulled him off looked like a direct hit.

Doan is one of the nicest, soft spoken guys there is. However, mess with him or one of his teammates and he goes all raging bull. It’s one of the reasons I think you never hear a bad thing about the guy. Coaches, players, etc. all love him.

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Nov 3, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

(But he still has no business being on Team Canada over Patrick Marleau.)

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

That is a personality issue. Marleau for whatever reason doesn’t exactly induce excitement in teammates. I think they may both be on, but if last spot is between them its Doan for sure. I like what Yzerman and the group has done with building rosters. Doesn’t go for pure all-star roster. Looks at everything. Captain vs guy stripped of captaincy means a lot. Doaner will be on 4th line.

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Nov 3, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Marleau can play C or W, ES, PK, PP. On a team looking to move C’s to W and looking for guys versatile enough to play different roles I don’t see how Marleau is off. He’s a much better skater, more skilled, and plenty tough (though he never gets credit for it). Team Canada tried going with the “role player” roster and lost. Why the Eff was Chris Draper on a Team Canada? Doan is another one of those “he fits a specific role” selections (didn’t hurt that Wayne loves him and is intimately involved in player selection for Team Canada) but I just can’t buy any of the knocks on Marleau. At the end of the day I’ve held this against Doan forever. He’ll never be one of my favorite players simply because of the Team Canada issue.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I totally agree that Marleau brings more flexibility and skill to the table. Anyone who says Doan would be just as good purely based on skill is smoking something.

Certainly Wayne being around certainly solidified the choice.

In any case, they are stacked talent wise. I wish USA had such issues to deal with.

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Nov 3, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Bush league hit?

Really? Looked perfectly clean to me. No elbow, didn’t leave his feet…

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Only a forearm to the face. Apparently the league didn’t like it either. 2 game suspension for Wisniewski.

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Nov 3, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Looked like a forearm shiver to the face to me. Just watched the replay several times and I’m standing by that assertion. Wonder why Doan’s face was bleeding…

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

So either you don’t see a forearm shiver (which I can’t exactly understand, but I guess it’s possible) or you don’t think a forearm shiver is bush league. I suspect it’s the former, but again, I wonder how you don’t see that.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

After watching it around 20 times, I see no definitive evidence that Wis caught him with the elbow. His elbow is not at his side before the hit, but I can’t see anything to suggest that he used it to hit him in the face. Not saying it didn’t happen, I just haven’t seen an angle where it was clearly evident. Admittedly, I’m just watching a shitty YouTube feed.

Anyhow, it looked clean to me (and the refs, FWTW), but I’m willing to concede that it might not have been.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

i’d be prepared to offer my definitive ruling if only you guys could throw together some stills and maybe some MS paint arrows for me. kthanx.

by Natty Bumppo on Nov 3, 2009 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think it was an elbow, per se. I think he got him with the forearm. I agree that the youtube feed is shitty (that feed and this feed are what I’m watching) and is not definitive. If he got him in the chest with the forearm it’s a clean hit, but it looks more likely than not (to me) that he got him in the face with the forearm and that’s why he got cut.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

After seeing the second video, it definitely looks worse. He extends his hand after the hit, almost like a follow-through. The question in my mind is: “was the elbow the thing he led with?” If the hand extension was just a follow-through after a clean shoulder check, I’m not sure it’s dirty, but it definitely looks worse on the second view.

Anyhow, I’d call the hit “borderline,” and not bush-league. To me, bush-league is hitting from behind or hitting a player when they’re otherwise defenseless. Going for the head with an elbow is dirty, but I don’t get the feeling (at least from watching the videos) that Wis was going head-hunting.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I can accept that distinction; I think it’s largely semantics but I can buy it. It’s definitely not the worst hit I’ve ever seen but I am viscerally against leading with an arm to the face.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

And here’s food for thought – the one of the “stars” everyone thought could take care of himself is now out. Who’s the next target? 19, 28 or 52? My money’s on 52.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 3, 2009 3:19 PM EST reply actions  

If only...

…teams could only target one star at a time. Given how successful teams have been at targeting 28 and taking him off his game (and the fact that he’s the Caps’ best goal scorer now) I have to imagine he’s right at the top of the list as well.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

was it the first philly game where 52 seemed to be targeted the whole game? i remember a specific game where i was thinking “wtf?” the whole time, not sure if that’s the right one though.

"No Brooks Laich, no win. Know Brooks Laich, know win."

by kellobellow on Nov 3, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree. People already hammer 52, because he’s shown the inclination to get panicky when they do, and it was a strategy that worked out pretty well for the Pens in the playoffs last year when they just beat our defense to death.

And after 52 goes, there goes pretty much all the offense on the back line. Can we please make a deal for Tomas Kaberle?

Ron and Fez 11 to 3

by YvonLabresMoustache on Nov 3, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

No!

Tomas Kaberle is so freaking overrated it’s disgusting. He’s soft as you can find in the NHL and he’s got another year left at 4+. We’re going to need that cap space next year. And Burke wants a King’s Ransom for that princess. Not worth it at all.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Especially since Kaberle now leads all D-men is assists and points.

by red army line on Nov 3, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

We’ll see how long that lasts. Do we really need another offensive Dman? Do we really need another Dman that can’t PK (last year either)?

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m confused. I think you replied to the wrong comment. If not, hell no, no Kaberle. If somehow Mark Streit comes into talks, that’s a different story.

by red army line on Nov 3, 2009 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I misunderstood your comment. I thought you were being snarky trying to rebut my comment that he’s overpaid by pointing out that he produces. On second thought it looks like you were referring to the ransom. My bad.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

He got a huge chunk of those in 1 fluky game that the Ducks basically handed over to the Leafs.

Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.

by jordanDC on Nov 3, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Kaberle is a good player, but definitely not worth the Cap hit…

Let's go Caps!

by MikeL-Pivonka on Nov 3, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

not just panicky, but quickly let’s emotion get the best of him and take really stupid penalties.

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

People also target 52 because he’s a little easier to target given how much puck carrying he does and the fact that he’s a D, so you get the added forechecking hitting.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 3, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, I think with Semin and Green, because those guys make it look effortless (and effort less) at times. They’re infuriating — it looks like they ain’t trying very hard. If I was someone who had to work his ass off every day just to make it to the NHL, I’d want to hit those guys too.

Ovi’s different — there’s no question he’s working his ass off every shift.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Nov 3, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

And I feel like it’s harder to get a solid shot on Nick and he will throw his shoulder right back at you if you come callin’.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Two words: Bon Goes.

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Nov 3, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

And I feel like it’s harder to get a solid shot on Nick and he will throw his shoulder right back at you if you come callin’.

I could have told you about Backstrom’s toughness.

Signed,

R. Callahan

"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."

by Bald Pollack on Nov 3, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Whoops, blockquote fun on my first day back.

"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."

by Bald Pollack on Nov 3, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Walk it off.

Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.

by jordanDC on Nov 3, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

also ask Mike Richards what its like to be staring an angry Nicky in the face. Enough to give you nightmares, if Richards’ cowering was anything to go by.

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Honestly

Did you think the situation was much better back when we had Brashear? I’m all for toughness, but we have to define what we’re looking for here.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Not really, no.

Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood...Make big plans, aim high in hope and work. - Daniel H. Burnham

Fan Clubs: Sloan, Schultz

by gotsparkly on Nov 3, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

You gotta know what J.P. is looking for in toughness. He hasn’t exactly been shy about it and you’re a regular.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

All I’m saying is that we need to define what we’re talking about. I don’t think bringing up Sugden is the answer to our problems (although I wouldn’t mind seeing him in the lineup when we play C-bus).

The issue I have is, what do you want from the players on the ice after a situation like that? They went in there and started a huge scrum and stood up for him. Turns out, it was a bit on the late side. Then there was yet another scrum later. The Caps really don’t have any decent fighters, and the BJ’s were turning them down when offered.

Using the PHX-ANA game as a corollary – what did PHX really gain by having Yandle challenge Wisniewski and get his ass handed to him? Nothing – they got a 2 min instigator penalty and lost one of the top D-men for 10 minutes.

To put this back in a Caps perspective, I’m guessing the best-case scenario is that Brads/Clark goes out and fights Jared Boll or Chimera in the 2nd. Don’t really see why that didn’t happen.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I think what we’re saying here is that “they” cant take liberties with our guys if “they’re” heads are on a swivel. Not fearing a fight, but fearing a hard, clean, hit…………

We need a hard-nosed, rugged, no bulls*** player to keep the other team honest. No to fight them, but to keep they’re attention on themselves and the puck, not our guys.

by Pi on Nov 3, 2009 7:50 PM EST up reply actions  

English language fail

“their” heads are on a swivel…..

by Pi on Nov 3, 2009 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not quite sure what the big deal is here. Teams have been doing this for decades and the only reason it worked this time is because Ovechkin got hurt and couldn’t play any longer. I have little doubt that had he been able to stay in the game, he’d have ended up playing a major role in the outcome. Anybody remember when Montreal broke AO’s nose and what happened after? He loves being challenged which is why most teams don’t take that approach. Sleeping bears and all that.

by b.orr4 on Nov 3, 2009 3:29 PM EST reply actions  

The problem is when guys think you can be pushed around they are more likely to be more aggressive. It’s not just with Ovi, its with Green and Semin too. Caps just need to show they can’t be pushed around. Doesn’t need to be vendetta or anything. Just make sure team’s don’t smell blood in the water.

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Nov 3, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Time to buy some insurance?

If this is going to happen, and no one on the team is going to defend Ovechkin, then GMGM, of all people, should see the value in signing a tough guy. A cheap policy to enforce accountability, IMO.

by S h a g g y on Nov 3, 2009 3:37 PM EST reply actions  

What was that guy gonna do from the bench?

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Nothing that won’t incur a major and game misconduct.

by red army line on Nov 3, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

This. You don’t need an enforcer. You just need the guys on the ice to stick up for their own.

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Nov 3, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

As you pointed out above, if Yandle can do it anyone can.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

That would be ideal but what if they don’t and someone else gets hurt or if they do but not effectively enough and teams keep going after guys like Ovie and Semin? Personally, I wouldn’t mind seeing Sudgen or someone like him skate a few shifts with Nash’s line on April 3, even if we lose the game. Everyone is going to be watching that game because of what happened with Ovie to see how the Caps react. I hope they don’t just let this one go.

by CapsFan2020 on Nov 3, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

If they don’t then like the other night its on them. It’s not rocket science.

As for 4/3, they had their chance in my mind. Now the league will be looking at anything and everything on 4/3 game. No use getting one of our own suspended well after the fact. Only will hurt us not CBus.

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Nov 3, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

It shouldn’t matter if the league or who else is watching. If anything that makes it even more important that they don’t just act like nothing happened, treat it like just another game. I’m not saying they should do something that might get a player suspended, they could just run, chase, hunt down, and hit Nash during that game. They did it to Ovie and none of their players got suspended so why couldn’t the Caps do the same thing to them, regardless of when the game takes place. If a Caps player gets a game misconduct in the process, I can live with that.

by CapsFan2020 on Nov 3, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Chances are if someone gets a game misconduct they’ll get suspended. Given the time of year that’s not exactly great.

I’m more concerned now with it happening again and once again no one stepping up. I still find the Green situation more annoying than Ovi. I think that play was much more dangerous.

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Nov 3, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

My feeling on the April 3 game. First off, I would make Ovi a healthy scratch for that game. I do NOT want to take the chance of Columbus’ guys taking another run at him. (I’m figuring the game will be meaningless at that point and the Caps will have a playoff birth.)

I would also put Sugden in the lineup and he can skate a few shifts with Nash (and also some shifts with Chimera and Boll.

by CapsFan75 on Nov 3, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I would never ever ever ever healthy scratch AO. Every team is going to target him and if you healthy scratch him for fear of targeting you send the wrong message and teams are only going to intensify their efforts to get at him. Sugden wouldn’t be able to catch Nash, much less do any damage to him. He’d be a waste of a sweater.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Only in that game — against that particular team.

(Maybe I’ll change my mind by April.)

by CapsFan75 on Nov 3, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

No, not ever do you scratch a guy against a team just because one of their guys injured yours. Certainly not when its Ovi, a guy that can take care of himself on the ice.

This is hockey not baseball.

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Nov 4, 2009 9:06 AM EST up reply actions  

impressed that everyone avoided the obvious “fat bleep” punchline.

by Natty Bumppo on Nov 3, 2009 4:12 PM EST reply actions  

I try not to rag on people for being fat, even when they are bleeps.

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Gilbert Brule didn’t really get traded to Edmonton – Hitch ate him.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Mmmmmmm... Gilbert Brule

I like it when it comes with the raspberries.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

What’s eating Gilbert Brule?

Apparently Captain Kangaroo…

by Steckel Me Elmo on Nov 3, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Awesome.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, he’s honest about it. I like that.

"My face is my mask."

by Jake Shapiro on Nov 3, 2009 4:18 PM EST reply actions  

5 Things I'm More Concerned About Than "Toughness"

1)The coaching staff coming up with a new breakout play. Seeing them continue to run the same ones that they have been using for the past year is getting old.
2)A veteran defensemen learning how not to screen his own goalies.
3)Penalty killers aggressively taking away space, particularly when the player with the puck has his face to the boards.
4)Penalty killers being coached to understand that when killing an empty net power play the first priority is to take away the passing lanes. Taking away the shooting lanes is secondary—the burden of stopping shots falls more heavily on the goalie.
5)Boudreau evolving his strategy. He appears to have run out of ideas and has been reduced to berating the players for not trying hard enough. If he does not learn some new tricks…

(Hope I’m not breaching Rink Etiquette too badly. Posted this on Caps Clips but think it belongs better here.)

by mechanicsville on Nov 3, 2009 5:08 PM EST reply actions   3 recs

I’m concerned about all those as well. #5 falls in with the toughness issue in my mind.

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Nov 3, 2009 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Heartily Agree

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

the PK would bother me less if the Caps took fewer penalties. Even in BB’s madcap system, i don’t see the need for the Caps to be near or at the top minor’s taken year in and year out.

I’d be more concerned in general however, if the Caps weren’t among the top teams in the league with no lose by more then a goal. I think we should all sorta, kinda, chill out.

by 718CapsFan on Nov 3, 2009 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed on the need to chill

It’s tough to see the forest when you have a tree to stare at every couple of days.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Whoop-dee-do.

But Brawndo's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes.

by hotdog88gt on Nov 3, 2009 7:51 PM EST reply actions  

Cannot wait for Don Cherry’s comments on this event, if any.

But Brawndo's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes.

by hotdog88gt on Nov 3, 2009 7:57 PM EST reply actions  

Hitch told his team exactly what I would have said: get Ovie involved in something other than shooting. Play him physically because nothing else will work, and even that might be futile. He’s a great coach, and he respects the game and its players. I’d never poo-poo him becoming Caps coach, thats for sure.

That said, all this talk about team toughness grates on me. Who exactly are we talking about being tough? Poti? Pothier? Morrisson? Fehr? Flash? Semin? Backstrom? Unless Clark and Bradley or Erskine are on the ice, who exactly is expected to get physical? Who on this team can actually win a fight? Is it enough to lose a fight? Unless you win your fights, you will intimidate NO ONE. Who here has ever been scared of a guy that can’t win a bout?

I honestly think this is the problem with how the Caps rebuilt. Look at the guys that Philly added, for example, through draft and trades. They picked guys that had size and width, not just height. Guys like Briere and Gagne keep getting injured (aside from groins, maybe) because they aren’t built to play the Flyers brand. But what is the Caps brand? Powerplay dominance? If so, no bitching when the softness comes through. I remember a lot of people around here saying the team didn’t need an enforcer. Maybe not, but they need pugilists, formidable ones, and unless they hurry up and get some, we’ll be seeing a lot more of these injuries and scrums as the season goes on. Anyone watching the tape of the CBJ game will point out to their team that you can push around 90% of the Caps roster. This is only the beginning.

But if you think you’re going to see more toughness out of these guys, think again.
There’s acting tough and there’s being tough.

By the way, Knubels slash was a retaliation for the Ovechkin incident. He bet on the game being in control and took the opp to hurt someone. That was an old school move, and most frown on that kind of thing these days.
So who was frowning?

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 9:09 PM EST reply actions  

While I generally agree with the "team toughness" stuff...

The Red Wings and Devils have long eschewed the use of dedicated enforcers, choosing to rely instead on a handful of tough players capable of fighting if need be, but who aren’t useless at the other aspects of the game (Clarkson, McCarty, Cleary, Colin White…). They certainly haven’t suffered much for it.

Philly is. . . Philly. They’d rather be tough than win the Cup. They may say otherwise, but every move they make demonstrates their intentions loud and clear.

I’m not so sure about Knuble’s slash, either. It’s tough to gauge intent, and if he thought the game was in the bag at that point, then he’s much stupider than he’s shown over the course of his career.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I dunno, McCarty of the late ’90s was pretty worthless except for being a nasty little piece of work.

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry

As an erstwhile Avs fan, I must completely and totally disagree. He used to scare the crap out of me.

Plus, he scored double-digit goals almost every year from 96-01. He was far from worthless.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Always big goals it felt like. He knew how to make ’em count.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

The Red Wings and Devils have long eschewed the use of dedicated enforcers

The Wings signed Brad May in the offseason and the Devils signed Andrew Peters, both to be used as needed.

Maybe the Caps would have used a roster spot on a similar player if they had the flexibility to do so, but to imply that Jersey and the Wings are currently ignoring that role is wrong, IMO.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 4, 2009 8:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Currently, perhaps

But over the long haul? Since Probert and Kocur left, who would you say was the WIngs’ dedicated enforcer?

In 2006-7 they had Aaron Downey – who in my opinion was more in the Matt Bradley mold. Otherwise, their PIM leaders have been guys like Shanny, or Andreas Lilja.

As for the Devils, they did have Cam Janssen for a couple of years but he wasn’t the greatest fighter and contributed little else on the ice, so they’ve replaced him with Clarkson, who can actually play a bit.

Regarding May and Peters – they’ve both played in only 1/2 of their teams’ games, this despite serious injuries to Detroit’s forward corps.

When I think “dedicated enforcer” I’m thinking guys like Laraque, Brashear, Parros, etc. . . Guys who really serve no function other than to fight…

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 4, 2009 9:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed (though I think you’re underselling Downey as a fighter). But “currently” is what matters – “currently” barely a night passes without a player being stretchered off the ice, etc. These teams currently have the guy to give a sweater to in games in which they think that element might be needed. The Caps don’t.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Nov 4, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Point taken

When Lucic signed his contract, a lot of people felt the B’s were overpaying for him because of his popularity with the fanbase. Considering the fact that Lucic allows the B’s to not carry a “dedicated” enforcer, while still having someone on the ice who can deliver a beatdown if necessary, his contract looks a little better. He’s essentially combining two roles into one roster spot.

How about we sign Shanny to a one-year contract once we get some cap space?

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 4, 2009 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

It would be a nice loophole

He wants to play on the third line, but can’t handle much more than 4th line minutes. Sounds perfect for our “third line.”

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 4, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

I’d never poo-poo him becoming Caps coach, thats for sure.

Have you watched the teams he coaches? I’d be bored to tears if he ever coached the Caps. Same with Jacques Lemaires. I like my hockey to be played like it’s supposed to be fun, thank you very much.

Who here has ever been scared of a guy that can’t win a bout?

Who here would go toe to toe with Matt Bradley? Sometimes just showing up for the fight gets the message across.

Unless Clark and Bradley or Erskine are on the ice, who exactly is expected to get physical?

This is exactly the problem. I don’t buy into your pugilism stuff or your PHI stereotyping nonsense. Who exactly was the fearsome pugilist in the SCF last year? I’ll wait. What you saw in the SCF, in stark contrast to “pugilists, formidable ones,” was a group of guys that would not be pushed around. By anybody. Go ahead, hit Max Talbot. He’s getting up and he’s going to let you know he’s up and coming back for you. Hit Dan Cleary. Hit Zetterberg, and Datsyuk, and Crosby, and Staal. Damn near to a man those rosters are made up of guys that stand up for themselves, but more importantly they almost never had to stand up for themselves because their line mates were on it before they were. We have far too many guys that I question if they are prepared to do that, and that’s the problem that I, and J.P. and the others taking this position, have.

Team Toughness: It starts with yourself.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 9:22 PM EST reply actions  

Strangely

I also generally agree with you here. I think my “dividing line” is the playoffs – they’re simply a different kettle of fish. Basically no teams use enforcers in the playoffs, because they can’t be trusted. (Bruce’s use of Brash always confused/bothered me).

Still, the Pens have carried dedicated fighters on their regular season roster (Godard, Bisonnette), and the Wings have employed (at various points) McCarty, Martin Lapointe, Derian Hatcher, Brad May, Todd Bertuzzi and Chris Chelios – all of whom I’d take in a fight over Brads or Clark. The Avs were a very successful franchise for a long time, and have always employed at least one player who was a seriously good fighter – Chris Simon even spent much of 95-96 riding Sakic’s wing.

I think we’re all missing a big point here – the Caps DID rally around Ovie after the hit. There was a huge scrum. No fights, necessarily, but under the circumstances (we got a PP), I’m glad for that. However, I still think that Clark, Bradley, Knuble or even Laich should have filled in Jared Boll and/or Chimera after the incident.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Spacey

Sorry, I think I meant my point to say: we could use more players like Lapointe/McCarty. If Brads and/or Clark want to do that, great. If not, we probably need to get someone else.

Apropos of nothing – many people have discussed Fehr’s future as a potential power forward – I’ve always felt that a power forward needed to be able to fight. . .

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Aside from the Pens enforcers all the guys you named could actually play hockey. I agree I’d love more guys like that. I’d like to see more guys show the willingness to fight on occasion. I can’t remember watching Steckel fight off the top of my head. Or Laich. I can remember seeing Green fight. And AO (if that even qualifies as a fight). Something is backwards there.

And yes, if Fehr’s body could stay together through actual hockey I’d like to see him test his fighting skills.

I think we’re all missing a big point here – the Caps DID rally around Ovie after the hit.

Emphasis added. One of my big problems is the reaction is always after the star has been hit, and consists of a little scrum. That doesn’t send much of a message at all to those guys. It was pretty clear that Chimera and Torres had their sites on AO before the hit. And it’s clear that teams take runs at all of our Young Guns. Have we ever seen one of our guys go do anything before “the hit.” I watch other teams and you see guys talking to the aggressors. I’d like to see Laich (since he’s likely to be out with actual skill guys) tell Torres or Chimera that if you want to run at our studs we’re dropping the mitts so slow your role. Sure he gives a good quote and he has developed his offensive game, but he’s not 6th MVC for nothing, right? Bring more of that toughness and start trying to keep guys honest with our Young Guns.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I in no way meant that we need guys that ONLY fight. They need to be able to play, not guys simply to ride the pine and play 4 minutes a game, only to have a throwdown. Thats not what I meant. Pugilist means someone who fights not someone who only fights and can’t play.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re also hung up on the macho “winning the fight” thing. Do you remember who won Iginla v. Lecavalier or do you remember that they fought?

Again, go watch Carcillo pummel Talbot then come back to me.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Whats your point regarding Carcillo and Talbot. I’m not your bitch, stop sending me to watch something and come back to you. WInning a fight is macho, huh? You’re in the dark. Go watch McPhee fight Tocchet and then give your keyboard a rest.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not your bitch, so don’t tell me to go watch something, or what to do with my dear sweet keyboard. Carcillo beat the shit out of Talbot in G6 of the most recent Pens/Flyers series. Talbot got up and gave the “shhh” gesture to the crowd (inspiring Hooks Orpik’s awesome avatar) and then watched as the Pens came back from a 3-0 deficit to win the game and the series. The value of that fight had NOTHING to do with who won and who lost. I may be in the dark but you’re in the dark ages. You may not be my bitch but rhetorically you sure look like it.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not your bitch buddy...

I’m not your buddy, guy…

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 10:43 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I’m not your guy, pal…

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not your pal, friend.

by Steckel Me Elmo on Nov 3, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not your friend, buddy.

Russian Machine very rarely breaks.

by macvechkin on Nov 4, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Also

If Hitch coaches the Caps, call me when he’s fired, cuz I’m not watching.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

seriously, I rather give my money to Dan Snyder than watch a Ken Hitchcock-led Capitals squad.

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Let's not get crazy now

I’d rather shove pinecones up my butt sideways than do that…

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I endured the first 5 years of the Lemaire-coached Wild. I never want to watch a trap team again.

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

It means nothing that the guy took his teams to the conference finals and cup finals a number of times, and has won the cup as a coach? He’s won championships at all levels but he’s not good enough to coach Washington? please.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Could you please point out to where I ever said he was not a quality coach? I’ll wait.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

That wasn’t in response to your comments.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not sure that changes the point much. I’m pretty sure D’ohboy and I expressed the exact same point.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 9:55 PM EST up reply actions  

no, he said he wasn’t going to watch if Hitch coached, and I think thats lame. The guy’s been successful. He’s won cups and been to the finals a few times, as well as conference finals. I don’t remember Dallas being boring with Hitch behind the bench, nor philly. Colombus hasn’t looked boring since he arrived.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 10:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Successful does not equate with worth watching. Hockey is supposed to be entertainment and the kind of trapping, rigid defensive system that Hitchcock has his players playing in simply isn’t entertaining.

Watching dump-and-chase for the entire game while a team leaves 4 guys on the red line just isn’t fun to watch. Have you been watching the same Colombus squads I have? Rick Nash is exciting, end of list. Filatov could get there eventually, but he’s been a colossal disappointment this year after the season that he had last year. Brassard is sneaky, but he’s not to the point of being exciting. Anything else is stifled by the system they play in.

If your only criteria for fun hockey to watch is your team coming out on top, then the Devils were the team for you. For the rest of us, it was an exercise in frustration and boredom.

by Knee high to a duck on Nov 3, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Slight Exaggeration

Watching C-Bus and previous Hitch teams is akin to watching paint dry. Yes, I acknowledge that he’s a good coach, but I think his style of hockey is godawful from an entertainment perspective.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

one of the few things you and I actually agree on. But I think you’re insulting the entertainment value of paint drying vs. the trap. Watching paint dry is far more interesting.

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Really?

We disagree that much? I’d never noticed…

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 10:49 PM EST up reply actions  

So does that mean she agrees with me usually?

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I generally disagree with you, but our on-line schedules don’t seem to match up. Seems a little silly to argue 12+ hours after you’ve posted something, ya know? (no hard feelings?)

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

It's ok

I generally disagree with me, too.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions  

yay general disagreement!

Can we all agree that we are in general disagreement with this hunky dory guy posting further down?

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

It doesn’t upset me when paint dries. That’s what it’s supposed to do. The trap… that’s not what hockey players are supposed to do.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Unless you were huffing

would you watch it though?

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Come to think of it, no.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

In Hitch’s defense though, he hasn’t had great talent on his team, and even now there’s no real puck-mover on the blueline. I don’t see what else they can do.

by red army line on Nov 4, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Especially since we saw what happened to Minny since they’ve thrown the trap in the trash bin.

by red army line on Nov 4, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

That might be a good defense of Hitch if he had spent his whole coaching career on talent-poor teams, but that is clearly not the case.

Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst

by Killer_Carlson on Nov 4, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh, I’m willing to let it pass until now. Since Lemaire invented the trap it’s worked wonders for many teams, and only now has it begun to become relatively ineffective. Now though he has talent, with Nash, Brassard, Vermette, Filatov, etc.

by red army line on Nov 4, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Effective was never the question. Aesthetics was. Hitchcock had lots of talent on PHI and DAL and still coached the same way.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 4, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you missed my point, which was that Hitch has had talent before and still stressed a boring defensive style game. It’s not his last resort because he is coaching Columbus, that’s just how he coaches.

Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst

by Killer_Carlson on Nov 4, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Showing up for the fight gets the message across? Really? Winning the fight gets the message across.

So you want to take one SCF and say there are no pugilists so none are necessary? I remember the Ducks winning the cup with a team full of guys that fought, and often won. Colorado was never a soft team. Detroit, before their current incarnation, had a a few guys, not one or two, like Chelios, McCarty, Shanny. NJ had guys like Stevens (who on this blueline fights? Erskine. Who hurts his hand everytime he fights? Erskine. Who’s out with a bum hand? And he’s your go to enforcer). Dallas had a few guys that regularly dropped their mitts.

Again, who on this team do you expect to be tougher than they are? Fehr? Steckel? Yeah, Philly might concentrate too much on having tough guys, and have not won a cup like that since their heyday, but if they had a goalie in net that was more than a flash in the pan, they would have. Either way, they don’t build teams that can get pushed around.

You can say the caps dont need formidable pugilists all you want. The proof is on the ice. Morrisson waiting until the end of the 3rd to fight? Are you kidding me? You can’t expect guys to suddenly be tough when they never have been.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Go watch Dan Carcillo pummel Max Talbot and then come back to me.

The Ducks played hockey real well, and happened to fight. No Pugilist <> soft. A soft team won’t win. One without a sideshow goon can win. Most of the guys you are talking about can actually play hockey, and you seem to be overlooking that.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

And you’re going to have a tough time making the case to me that Shamo and Clark and Bradley are not extremely tough. You want them winning fights, fine. But questioning their toughness isn’t fair at all.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 9:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, I want them winning fights. You really seem to frame arguments around redundant rhetoric. Where did I say Bradely and Clark werent tough?

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

You can’t expect guys to suddenly be tough when they never have been.

Why don’t you tell me who that referred to then. Certainly I’m going to read that applying to Shamo, who played a full playoff series against the bad ass Flyers with a broken jaw and no protection. But you used the plural “guys” and “they” so I’m assuming you’ve got another guy in mind. Go ahead and list so I can respond with something other than redundant rhetoric.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

These threads are fun to lurk.

Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.

by jordanDC on Nov 3, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Fehr, Flash, Steckel, Semin, Bmo, Backstrom, Aucoin, Laich.
You want them to suddenly toughen up and confront the other teams aggressors. And do what, push a little until the ref gets there?

Compare to Getzlaf, Iginla, Richards, Hartnell, players of that ilk. Some guys are tough, some guys aren’t but are good players. There is a distinction. Expecting guys who have never acted or behaved intimidating to suddenly do so is a little far fetched. Whats Lacih gonna do if somone hits him? What if he gets his ass handed to him? Is he tough?

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 10:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Laich and Steckel definitely need to drop the gloves more. If Fehr were healthy I’d like to see him do it too. I’d like to see the more skilled guys at least stick up for themselves, which Semin has at least tried to do, even if in hysterically inept fashion. You’ll never give Backstrom credit for being tough just because his dad couldn’t beat up your dad but I think he’s exceptionally tough.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Backstrom has shown greatly improved signs of toughness this season, without a doubt. But hes not gonna be doing any fighting.

You keep missing the point. Laick, stecks and fehr don’t drop the gloves because they aren’t that type of guy. Expecting them to do it, and saying they need to man up, is all fine and good but the point is they aren’t the formidable player/pugilist the team is proving they need. Expecting them to be so overlooks the fact that they aren’t.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s all about will. All they have to do is drop the gloves and swing. They are big and strong and can at least protect themselves. Aside from the obvious, what does Max Talbot have that allows him to fight that Brooks Laich doesn’t have.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 10:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Brooksie should start fighting. Imagine how the ladies would start tripping over themselves to kiss those black eyes better.

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

“Certainly I’m going to read that applying to Shamo.”

because it suits your argument. You chose to ignore the other guys who have never showed you any toughness.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

No. Because you named Shamo. You get upset when I fill in the blanks so I asked you to fill in the blanks.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Come on, I mentioned Shamo because he was the guy that asked Torres to fight him at the end of the 3rd heading into OT when it would be retarded for Torres to obligue. He should have done it in the 2nd when Ovie got hurt, not at the end of the game.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Damn

Shanny could fight. That was a power forward.

As for Philly, don’t you think they could afford a decent keeper if they didn’t spend money on a crapload of physical forwards and defensemen through the years? Philly COULD have a decent keeper if they wanted – they choose to acquire other parts.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions  

They could also have Upshall instead of Carcillo.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:42 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

rec’d

A man gotta have a code

by Carl Putnam on Nov 4, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions  

No, those are the kind of guys I think the Caps need. Lets settle on the definitions being tossed around. Pugilist is somone who fights. Enforcer is someone who can only fight.
I’m not overlooking that at all.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 9:52 PM EST reply actions  

So who are the “formidable” pugilists you’d like to see?

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

By formidable I mean someone who wins at least as many as he loses. PREFERABLY MORE WINS. I like Bradley, dude, I really do. But lets face it, he’s not a good fighter. He’s willing, and I give him props for that, but he doesn’t win enough to be formidable. I wouldn’t suggest that the Caps pick up Riley Cote. He can’t play. But they need guys that are intimidating and that can play. The Caps have a lot of guys in the pipes who can play (maybe not all at a consistent NHL level), but how many of them are physically imposing AND can play? Wouldn’t it be great if Carlson ended up being a tough son of a bitch that can fight? I’m not getting the impression thats part of Alzners game. Jurcina’s big but he doesn’t fight. THe only blueliner is Erskine, and thats not good enough. Clark can throw em, but he hasn’t been. Frankly, he’s the f-ing captain and should have beat the piss out of someone the other night. That would have been a message. Invitations to fight at the end of the 3rd heading into OT send a message too.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 10:02 PM EST reply actions  

Don’t disagree on Clark; in another thread I said that if he’s going to be a 4th line Captain he needs to take a cue from Ethan Moreau. Don’t disagree on wanting more fighters coming up the pike. I believe Carlson would be willing to fight but I also think if he reaches potential he’ll be one of the stars not fighting. I know Alzner said he specifically wants to focus on the physical aspect of his game and sticking up for teammates. I think Osala has the tools to fight. I think if SDR stays healthy he’ll be more than willing to fight. I think guys like Jay Beagle and Andrew Gordon would be willing to fight if it meant staying in the NHL. If Bruess is ever NHL worthy he’ll definitely fight. I have no idea how any of these guys will pan out. I still don’t think you understand the real value of fighting in the NHL.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

And I think its convenient that you think I dont understand but that you do.
I’m going to assume for a moment that you were around for Hunter and Stevens and Dino. The Caps were intimidating. No one wanted to fight any of those guys. No one wanted to fight Simon. Bradley Clark and Shamo are not exuding that.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 10:21 PM EST reply actions  

COMPLETELY different situations. Quick note, Eddie O. is a pittsburgh homer, imho.
In this instance, Eddie is was right. There was reason for Carcillo to engage in anything that would give away his teams momentum.

You are comparing Apples to Oranges.

Fighting in the columbus game would have been to send a message that if you injure one of our guys ESPECIALLY OVECHKIN, or if he even freakishly gets hurt because you shoved him, we’re going to maul you. We’re going to beat the piss out of you. Its gonna hurt. Everytime you think, or one of your guys thinks, he can bang Semin or Green or Ovechkin, one of us will destroy one of you. Try to rally. It wont matter. You can win this game, but some of you are going to be too hurt to play your next tilt. Don’t touch our guys.
Thats intimidation.

What Carcillo did was dumb and showed little ‘hockey sense’ which is really just intelligence. Find me a clip of Parros doing that, if we’re going to compare guys with little skill but massive fists.

If your messages, sent after an injury, result in a Caps beat down, momentum goes to the blue jackets. insult to injury. But if they win in this instance, momentum goes the caps way.
Again, apples and oranges. I dont care for staged fights, but what Talbot did was smart. Would it have been if he was Avery and not a popular guy in the dressing room? Would the rangers rally around a fallen Avery like the Pens did around Talbot?

What Crosby did showed grit. He stood up for himself and didn’t care who it was. Good for him. Should we review the clips of him jimmying someones nut sack and jumping a guy off a face off, too? Is your point that Ovechkin should have fought about being pushed? If your point is winning a fight doesn’t matter, your wrong. It depends on the situation. Sometimes its just the fight, and sometimes its about winning the fight.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 10:58 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

There was NO reason for carcillo to engage. pardon me. that word was missing.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Crosby showed grit? Really? I thought he showed once again that he’s prone to flying off the handle. Are we talking the fight against Zidlicky? last I knew, the Wild won that game.

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

If you go after a guy that just upended you and start throwing blows, that shows grit, yeah. I’d put forth that Crosby is a gritty guy. But you are absolutely right, he is certainly prone to flying off the handle. In that particular instance he showed grit by sticking up for himself. I’m more interested in what he shows when punching a guy in the balls and jumping folks off the faceoff without warning. But yeah, he definitely tries to be gritty when he can.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

But yeah, he definitely tries to be gritty when he can, between crying jags about hats, hits, and the way that kid in section 106 keeps looking at him funny.

fixed that for you.

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

you won’t hear me saying that he’s not a punk.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 11:12 PM EST up reply actions  

His attempts at fighting seem more like physical expressions of whining to me.

Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.

by jordanDC on Nov 4, 2009 6:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Gotta give credit where it’s due. He saw what looked like a bad hit at full speed and didn’t wave his arm for a pass interference flag or look around for someone else to respond. He went after Ballard and dropped the gloves. Good on him. Does that atone for his other transgressions, no, but I wouldn’t mind seeing more Caps take that attitude.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

The entertaining part of that fight was the speed of the linemen as they flew over and said, “Mr. Crosby, sir, you musn’t. Please sir, stand down this instant.”

IS PAЯTY NOW

by EmilyB on Nov 3, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Crosby didn’t stand up for himself, he stood up for a teammate.

My point has nothing to do with AO or Crosby’s many transgressions. My point is that anyone can fight, and that it’s not about winning or losing. You keep hanging onto your notion that winning matters. You know how to work Youtube, go ahead and find an example of winning a fight making a difference that engaging in the fight wouldn’t have. It feels good for fans to see players win fights. It’s not what matters to players.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Haven't you played EA's NHL games???

If you win a fight, all your lines get fresh!!

Or “Blades of Steel” – if you won … NO PENALTY!!!

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

yet another reason why Blades of Steel was awesome.

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I can hear the voice now. That game was so much better than Nintendo Hockey.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Aww man. Why you gotta dig at Nintendo Ice Hockey. I have a soft spot for fat guys playing hockey.

(Ok it’s a mound not a spot.)

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe a bulge?

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I would love to talk about my bulge, but I was out with Greenman for Halloween weekend and all night his bulge was getting attention. Seriously the best costume I’ve ever had the pleasure of partying with.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

My favorite?

Sailor Moon.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Yours wins.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

There's a funny story to go with it

But I’ll leave it to your imagination…

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m going to assume it explains how that bite got taken from the side of your head.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

See?!?!?!

We agree on lots of stuff…

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed that we agree! (statements like this one have the possibility of causing the internet to explode, right?)

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions  

blades of steel was the greatest hockey game, followed by sega’s, especially because Roenick scored on every shift on sega. I still remember that “Blades of Steel” voiceover. I can think of no other game that ever said its name at the beginning. Maybe thats why it stuck. Or maybe it was the thousands of hours of playing it.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Can you imagine the pandemonium that would ensue if the NHL adopted that rule. Insanity.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

It would be fucking awesome.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Kip Brennan and Jon Mirasty would immediately be in the NHL. Alex Ovechkin wouldn’t dress until the playoffs. I wonder what superstar would be able to survive a season like that. Iginla? Getzlaf? Chara could I bet. Pronger too.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

But

You’re not telling me how it wouldn’t be awesome…

It would remind me of watching WinterHawks vs. T-Birds games back in the day. And by “back in the day,” I mean the days when players still wore Cooper-Alls.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not trying to tell you it wouldn’t be awesome. Ratings would be through the roof. Dentists would be at full employment. Surely one of those half-wits would cross the line and do something criminal; maybe I could get some work out of it. And then there would be playoff hockey. Let’s get it rocking. XHL baby.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:26 PM EST up reply actions  

MVP???

Laraque? Brashear? Boogard?

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m going to go with Brenden Morrow. Dude could handle the season and would probably lead the league in goals. For years people will remember the incomparable feat he accomplished when he scored an amazing 40 goals in 80 games. “He scored forty before anyone else scored ten!” It will be on a commercial on the XHLN for decades.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

the aforementioned Darren McCarty would have been pretty bad as under those rules. If you thought he was scary then…..

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually

I’m going with Ovie. I think if he wanted to, he’d be a fucking badass fighter.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

that’s my feeling, too. I’m under the impression that he’s not allowed to fight. “Yes, Alex, I know you wanted to knock his teeth out, but we pay you on a per-goals basis, not a per-tooth basis.”

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I had a secret hope that he was taking lessons from Brash, but that doesn’t appear to be the case. The guy has the size, strength, balance, and toughness to do it, I’d love to see him put the league on notice that he can throw ’em, even if he does it exceedingly rarely.

(Crosby basically uses his ridiculous leg and core strength to tie up his opponents and then starts throwing when he feels secured and to his advantage. It works for him. AO should find his style.)

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Except

Ovie would actually be throwing bombs.

Just get his helmet off first, Alex.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Seriously. That’s what I’m most worried about. (Everyone knows he doesn’t play defense!) If he throws caution to the wind I’m not sure I like his chances with a guy that has some experience fighting.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

And my point is sometimes its about more than just fighting for momentum, its about fighting for respect and intimidation. Go ask players that fight if they prefer to win or lose them. If you have guys on your team that win their fights, maybe that little push and shoving match with Ovechkin never happens. Gretzky stayed on two legs because of intimidation. Stevens made a career out of intimidation. The Caps aren’t intimidating anyone so no one is worried about getting into it with one of them. Thats why winning fights is importnat for the Caps right now. If you can’t see that, I’m sorry. Until fighting is gone from the game, that element will exist.
You can bet that if Dale Hunter or Scott Stevens had been on the ice for that, they would have fought someone, and they would have made damn sure that they won.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

You have to intimidate when you aren’t fighting. Fighting isn’t even close to enough. You need to make it unpleasant for teams to play against you. I don’t think the Caps make it unpleasant to play against them unless you’re the goalie or a slow-footed defenseman. Brooks Laich has really developed his game, but do you think anyone doesn’t like going to the corner with him? Steckel is great on the dot, but how many guys fear running into him in the slot? You’re right that a large part of it is a natural mindset. But even if you aren’t naturally physically aggressive you can put your mind to it to make it more difficult for other teams to play against you. And if you do that, Fighting still won’t matter if you lose.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Knuble

Should bring more of this.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn’t mind that.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

i dont know how to make the grey boxes

“And if you do that, Fighting still won’t matter if you lose.”

This statement is only true if the desirable outcome is to win the game. If the desirable outcome is to prevent your teammates from incurring further abuse, then its false.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Grey Boxes

Select the text you want, copy it to the clipboard, then click the quotation marks above the text box and paste the text into the box that pops up. Preview it to make sure you did it right.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you!
Select the text you want, copy it to the clipboard, then click the quotation marks above the text box and paste the text into the box that pops up. Preview it to make sure you did it right.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

No worries

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

My way is better.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Or paste what you are quoting, highlight it, then hit the quotes.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Huh

Didn’t know about that…

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s why you’re Keynes.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

No

Keynes is why I bring up short-run vs. long-run, then point out that in the long-run, we’re all dead.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

The rest of it is fairly obvious and I agree with with the player assesments. And yes than can turn their intimidation factor up a few notches. But if you expect them to stand up and intimidate other teams by sticking up for their teammates with their fists, then no, they aren’ that type of guy. Thats clear by the fact that they don’t do it, and haven’t in the past either.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Seriously though

While I’m not sure I totally agree with his arguments, I see where HD is coming from – showing up for a fight is all well and good, but if you can never win, or not even hold your own, it’s ultimately an empty gesture with little to no deterrent effect.

Yes, in the short run, just showing up for the fight can swing momentum or support a teammate. In the long run, however, if the guys on the other team know you suck at fighting (and believe me, they know) they won’t think twice about doing whatever the hell they want. At some point, Brads or Clark will have to do something other than receive punches to their facial region.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t totally disagree with that either, but see above. If the only time you try to dish out physical punishment is in a fight you’re not going to be successful even if you win all of your fights. You need to be a physical and tough team for 60 minutes. Not for the sideshows between the whistles.

(And then I think there’s a correlation problem that most naturally physical guys will be more interested in fighting and thus do it more and be better at it. I don’t know that it’s their ability to win the fights that makes them valuable players as much as their general approach to playing the game.)

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

No arguments

It’s a 60-minute thing. But believe me, having your ass royally kicked out on the ice is NOT fun. It stands out a hell of a lot more than all the times I’ve been hit/slashed/facewashed.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

No Doubt

But Royal ass beatings are extremely rare in the NHL. Most guys are good enough at defending that it’s hard to really pummel them; and as soon as there is an advantage some combination of respect and the linesmen ends it before serious damage.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Except for the guys that are fighting on our team. And while they might not get pummelled all the time, they often are the clear loser.
Dohboy said it well, and perhaps better than I have; empty gestures are not respected by the other team, nor are they intimidated by it. And they absolutely know the state of affairs heading into games.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Right. But it’s also an empty gesture if the only time you punish a team is when you fight. I maintain that it’s far more important to establish and maintain a physical presence outside fighting; you are more concerned with asserting physical presence through fighting.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I maintain that it’s far more important to establish and maintain a physical presence outside fighting; you are more concerned with asserting physical presence through fighting.

No, i’m not asserting that at all. I’m saying that fighting happens and the team would be better off if more if their fights ended up in the win column, not the showed up column. The only physical presence on the Caps comes from Ovechkin and Bradley and to some degree from Erskine, who is arguably a marginal NHLer. I haven’t noticed Clark being present lately, let alone having a physical presence. Its definitely a problem. But what do you expect from Flash, Semin, Laich, Bmo and Fehr? Thats half the top 6. They aren’t physical players. Yes they should try to rev it up a bit, but are they able to do it consistently enough to change the complexion of the team?

by Hunky Dory on Nov 4, 2009 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Deadmarsh

My favorite NHL player of all time. Bar none. Career ended due to concussions, a couple of which he got fighting with Ed Jovanovski – sticking up for himself.

I loved him for being courageous, but I wish he were still playing.

My point? Fights can always have bad consequences.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

hey now, isn’t the NFL busy telling Congress (WTF? Doesn’t Congress have slightly more important business to tend to?) that concussions aren’t really all that bad and no have long term consequences?

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

They should come talk to me

I still get headaches to this day…

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions  

When I had my worst concussion (from my 10+), my teammate, who was standing about 10ft away from me, told me he could feel my head hit the ice. . . through his skates.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

ouch. that made me wince.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

damn, ten+ concussions?! absolutely brutal. (and I thought my two were bad. I shall quit by crying about them now)

by RedBirdie on Nov 3, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Heard of Don Sanderson?

Essentially, the same thing happened to me. But I didn’t die. Sadly, not even the worst injury I’ve ever had. . .

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 3, 2009 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Oof

That is brutal. I almost Travis Roy’d myself but only knocked myself out.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

That would actually be my worst injury… except it happened in the ocean and involved a sand bar, rather than dasher boards. I was millimeters from paralyzation and, given the tide, probable death. A bunch of screws, some bone from my hip and about 1/2 inch off my height and I’m good as new ambulatory. As a bonus prize, I got another concussion.

I can’t ever tell if I have really bad or really good luck.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 4, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow. That’s just frightening. I was pretty scared after my incident but it doesn’t even approach anything like that.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 4, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

The weird thing is, as I was walking out of the ocean, my first thought was of Travis Roy.

I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe

by D'ohboy on Nov 4, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions  

jesus christ, that’s scary.

by RedBirdie on Nov 4, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Damn. I honestly have no idea how many I’ve had, on or off the ice. I suspect I don’t want to know the answer.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree. It’s a serious situation that these guys make less serious because of how good they are at defending themselves. It sucks when losing a fight has a serious ramification (the worst I took required replacing half a tooth) and guys like Todd Fedoruk are seemingly there to remind us of how dangerous it is. I’m not saying it never happens, but the bad ones are usually KOs, it’s not like guys are having their faces caved in.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah, I liked Deadmarsh too. I also wish he were still playing. I loved the Colorado/Wings games.

by Hunky Dory on Nov 3, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the point is fighting Matt Bradley isn’t exactly a big punishment for running after the Young Guns. Fighting Donald Brashear is.

However, for a momentum-changing fight, it should be someone who doesn’t fight all that often or isn’t particularly good.

by red army line on Nov 4, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Who ever fought Donald Brashear because they hit the Young Guns?

Ever.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 4, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

You mean the now routinely healthy-scratched Donald Brashear? And what’s up with this new Ranger goon that racked up 29 PIMs last night. Actually, I don’t know if he’s a goon or not, but he clearly went berserk last night.

by Cluster on Nov 4, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I have no idea who he is. He was a second round pick though so presumably he’s got more to his game than fighting.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 4, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I was with F&B until this comment. Rec’d

by red army line on Nov 4, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

All that fight-winning translated into playoff success, too.

by Knee high to a duck on Nov 3, 2009 10:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Is Crosby a "formidable pugilist"?

Tell me that this has anything to do with winning or losing.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Rob Parker on Nov 3, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I rooted for Dale Hunter. I loved nearly everything that man did, clean, dirty or otherwise. I can’t get mad at Hitchcock for saying this, and i can’t say “targeting” players is wrong. I would do what we called “Stalking” players when I played Roller hockey – the coach would assign me to who he thought was the other teams top player, and my job was to get under the guy’s skin. I would pester, bump, and do pretty much everything shy of try to hurt him. I broke sticks, and knocked gloves off. All to get under a guys skin. I think that’s more what Hitchcock means by this comment – it’s taken a little out of context here, and if there was some sort of “bounty” on it, the NHL would be stepping in. Also, I don’t think any of us would be crying foul if Malkin was taken out and the quote came down like this. And if it was Richards, we’d probably be agreeing with the coach saying it.

I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.

by Whiter Mage on Nov 4, 2009 3:29 AM EST reply actions  

"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."

by Bald Pollack on Nov 4, 2009 8:18 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Rec’d. I just spent my whole lunch reading this.

by Cluster on Nov 4, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

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