Recap: Devils 5, Caps 2
by Becca H on Nov 14, 2009 10:15 PM EST
in Game Recaps
214 comments
[AP Recap - GameCenter - Game Summary - Event Summary]
The Caps came into Prudential Center tonight riding a four-game winning streak and jumped out to a quick lead, denting Martin Brodeur and the Devils for two quick goals by the five minute mark of the first period. It seemed like it was the start of a lopsided rout, a night when Brodeur would look human and the Alex Ovechkin-less offense would continue to pummel their opponents.
Instead they continue to prove that a 2-goal lead is the most dangerous lead in hockey - especially against the Devils - and bookend Ovechkin's absence with two losses to New Jersey. Thus endeth the winning streak. Thus endeth their time atop the East. And three games to the Devils all end in disappointing losses. At least there's only one left...
Ten more thoughts on the game:
- Jose Theodore looked pretty good through twenty minutes. After that, though...let's just say that between the final forty tonight and Varlamov's performance last night, the battle for #1 is alive and well.
- Playing back-to-back nights may not have been the reason for the loss, but it certainly didn't help matters, especially in the physical side of things. Six hits total, with no more than one apiece, is a telling stat - and also a sure sign that without Ovechkin, John Erskine and Milan Jurcina, the physical element to this team takes a drastic hit.
- There weren't many bright spots tonight, but Brendan Morrison's work tonight - and pretty much every game since arriving - was one of them. He was one of the few who seemed to have some jump in his step and picked up time on both special teams; he also finished a dominant 11-for-15 in the faceoff circle.
- Not a thoroughly undisciplined game for the team, with only three minors taken, but it's the second straight game that they've taken a penalty for too many men on the ice. And while New Jersey doesn't take a ton of penalties (probably out of fear of waking up next to a horse's head), drawing only one penalty is not good enough.
- Tomas Fleischmann's goal in the first was a great power play strike as he continues to be hot. But Flash also finished -4 and had one of just two (recorded) giveaways for the team.
- It wasn't the worst game Alexander Semin has played this year. We'll reserve that distinction for the last time these two teams met. However, his attempted cross-ice pass to no one that got picked off for a breakaway goal the other way was one of his more boneheaded plays of the season.
- It would have been nice if Martin Brodeur had continued to look human for all sixty minutes. Really nice. Ask Chris Clark how nice. But hey, at least the Caps kept him from getting that elusive milestone shutout...right?
- Boyd Gordon re-injured his back in the second period and didn't return. At this point, it's just more of the same.
- It does open the door for a longer stay in DC for Mathieu Perreault, another player who had a decent night despite the team's overall struggles. He's just a little bundle of energy, a tiny one-man wrecking crew, a miniature French-Canadian Energizer Bunny. Somewhere up in the press box, Ovechkin is proud.
- With Mike Knuble in the lineup, there seemed to be a consistent net presence - regardless of whether it was Knuble, Chris Clark, Brooks Laich, Eric Fehr, or even Tomas Fleischmann, someone was always stationed in the crease. Without him, the Caps seemed to forget how to drive the net; considering Brodeur's going to stop just about everything he sees, and he was seeing everything, that pretty much sealed the Caps' fate.
Three games against the Devils, three losses. Three opportunities to take a firm grip on first place in the East, three opportunities blown. And for the first time this year, the Caps fall by a margin of three goals. Let's hope the pending return of Alex Ovechkin sparks something in the team - because we have to do this back-to-back thing again next weekend, and it doesn't get any easier.
Game highlights:
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I really hope MP keeps this level of play for the duration of his call up!
"And next year it will be ours."
by Ovechwin on Nov 14, 2009 10:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Things look good so far!
Hey, I have an idea…let’s challenge everyone and see if they can make their comments positive like this one :) Silver lining time, everybody!!
by Becca H on Nov 14, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
alex semin had an OUTSTANDING assist on zach parise’s goal….
by twistedlogic on Nov 14, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Meh… I’m not big on secondary assists.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 14, 2009 10:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Eh, I don’t have the energy to be critical and this MP kid has converted me.
"And next year it will be ours."
by Ovechwin on Nov 14, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair to the lobby, it’s growing so big that it applied for a zip code.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 14, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I remember when it was homesteadin’ land.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 14, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still don’t know if he can handle the speed and physicality of the NHL
Oh wait, yes I do know. Yes. Yes, he can.
Sorry Hershey, we’re keeping this one.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 14, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who wins in a fight, a weagle or a bear?
"And next year it will be ours."
by Ovechwin on Nov 14, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The one with Ovechkin.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 14, 2009 11:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The weagle – the bear gets confused by the Capitol-shaped thing up the bird’s ass, allowing it to swoop in and attack unharmed.
Hmm…apparently crappy losses make me punchy.
by Becca H on Nov 14, 2009 11:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The same thing happens to me, but I marinaded in Pale Ale all day.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 14, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The bear, because the weagle doesn’t stand up for itself?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 14, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I’d love to see him stick. I’d also love to see him get more quality ice (although I shouldn’t complain after a 13 minute windfall) but I think him sticking would be an incredible statement. That means that regardless of production BB trusts him. He’s not going to keep players he doesn’t trust when it’s crunch time.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 14, 2009 11:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he’s stuck after today. Dude could put up a goal and an assist with a Evason and Woods on his wings.
Void Boyd! Go with Perreault!
by jordanDC on Nov 14, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon tweaking his back again makes it moot.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 14, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
MP outplaying and outworking 50% of the forwards that have dressed every night he’s played should make it moot (I think it’s “mute”).
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 14, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, when looking at it, I’d have thought he’d have gotten more shifts in the third. The TOI overall (save for a couple guys including MP) was pretty even for all the forwards. But I skipped the third after the 5th goal to watch happy stuff while drinking.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 14, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You made the right call. He’s brought effort and skill every single night and seemingly every shift he creates a chance. It seems pretty clear. I don’t totally mind BB being cautious with him but I would like to see BB go to him heavy when the rest of the team isn’t working or focusing. We haven’t been out of any game until tonight so maybe he didn’t want to give up points but there was no reason to shield him tonight.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 14, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course, I compare it to last night, and he actually got a huge bump-up from last night, so now that I’ve some context, I’m going to hit the rack.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 14, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is there a breakdown anywhere of play time per period? Just curious, after the game got out of hand in the third, I didn’t really notice him out there except for the last shift of the game.
by HateOffSeason on Nov 15, 2009 7:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
MP got almost as much ice time as certain members of our so-called “first” line, including the very two guys who I assumed would remain there upon Ovi’s return.
Will Bruce try something totally radical and try the following line: Ovi at left wing — Perrault at center and ………. Brooks Laich as right wing!
In other words, “fire” tonight’s top line. Okay, not literally, of course. Just demote the group en-masse and break them up.
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually speaking of Laich – my favorite player, btw – did anyone else think he looked a little off tonight? Just maybe a step too slow, shots an inch too high, that kind of thing? I can’t tell if it was just me being overly critical, if it was real or if it was just a byproduct of the whole team stinking it up tonight.
by Becca H on Nov 15, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that bug was going around. You just happened to have your eyes on Brooksie.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I always do. It’s a sickness.
But yeah, I kind of figured it was just because I was watching him more closely and pretty much everyone played like crap. Glad to have confirmation.
by Becca H on Nov 15, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought the same actually. I figure that he – like most of the rest of the team was worn out from the back-to-back games.
by David M. Getz on Nov 15, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who looked particularly good to you? It’s a short list, no?
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
MP, Bmo, Clark, Green and Schultz are probably about it for me.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 15, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Perreault and Fleischmann were good. Agree with Killer_Carlson that Clark and B-Mo were solid.
by David M. Getz on Nov 15, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1st half of the game, I thought Laich looked pretty good. He was generating some chances, had some bad luck.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 15, 2009 12:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Laich had a pretty good game. I left him off the list more because of higher standards for him than others and it wasn’t his best game, but I liked how he was driving the net with the puck even if it wasn’t always successful.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 15, 2009 12:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Will he? No. Would MP and AO right now be guaranteed one goal per period? Probably.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think we’re even close to there; MP was the low guy last night while Backstrom, Semin, Laich and Morrison saw over (or just about) 20 minutes each.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 15, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, Backstrom and Fleischmann only each got about 15-16 minutes tonight, as did Fehr. Semin got 17 minutes or so. The “second” line folks like Morrison and Laich were the leaders in that department.
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Alexander Semin wins the Selke Award for the night. He was an integral part of the Devils’ breakout whenever he was on the ice.
I think one reason for the lack of net presence tonight was that the Devils got away with a lot of holding up Caps players without the puck as they skated toward the net.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 14, 2009 10:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Any guesses as to potential call ups given Knuble out, Gordon maybe out? Or is there no room to make moves? Is Nylander gone yet?
"I play Russian roulette every day - a man's sport - with a bullet called life"
by renhoak on Nov 14, 2009 10:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think with Ovie coming back Tuesday (hopefully) and Perreault playing as well as he has, we won’t need to call anyone up. We’ll just have two D scratched, as usual.
This Nylander thing reminds me of being a kid on a long car trip – “are we there yet? How about now? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?”
by Becca H on Nov 14, 2009 10:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Semin’s turnover was a game-changer. Throwing that pass into the middle of the ice at any time is a bad play, but while your defensemen are changing behind you – when you and your entire line have been on the ice for well over a minute – shows an utter lack of sense. I’m at a loss for words on that one (well, except for those I just wrote out).
That said, the Caps played as I pretty much expected they would – good start, but then looked like a team that had played the night before and was playing one that hadn’t (not entirely unlike Minny last night). Hard to dwell too much on this one, though, other than concern over #60’s ability to stop pucks and the aforementioned enigma.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 14, 2009 10:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It was a horrific play – even as an admitted Semin-apologist I can agree with that.
I guess my issue is this…why WAS it a game-changer? They’d already blown the lead, they were only down by one. God knows they’ve come back from worse deficits and had the firepower to do so. I agree that it changed the game, but it shouldn’t have. This team is so aggravating sometimes, they’ve got to learn how to make up for mistakes and instead they use them as excuses to get taken out of a game.
by Becca H on Nov 14, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It takes the wind out of a team’s sails when 18 guys are pulling in one direction and then a “usual suspect” does something soul-crushingly stupid.
Corey noted that three players pointed to that play as the key point in the game. For a coach to call it out is one thing and to be expected. But for three players to mention it specifically sounds to me like there’s a growing exasperation with regards to it.
But give credit to Los Diablos as well. That goal energized them – they’d overcome their crappy start completely and then went for the kill.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 14, 2009 10:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Except they weren’t pulling in one direction, unless that direction is back on their heels – they got cocky and blew a 2-goal lead. Again. If they want to make excuses for losing the game, Semin’s always an easy scapegoat. But they didn’t show up for the rest of the game after taking the lead and that’s troubling.
Mind you, I’m not saying it wasn’t one of his worse turnovers or that the goal didn’t hurt – because it was and it did. It just seems easy to point the finger at one guy when the entire team stopped playing after the first five minutes.
And if the players are frustrated, they’re big boys – they need to talk to Semin themselves, or have Ovie do it. I’m not convinced that they have.
Meanwhile, one thing I left out of the recap…I hate the f$*king Devils. Parise’s the only one I can stand, the rest of them – down to Brodeur and his sister/wife – bug me to no end.
by Becca H on Nov 14, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Playing with a lack of jump in the second of back-to-backs in the building of one of the best teams in the League is somewhat understandable to me (see Minny last night, where the rout would’ve been on if Harding didn’t have a golden horseshoe up his arse). Mental errors at any time are not.
Semin’s not the reason they lost – Theodore was probably the worst player on the ice, others contributed, and, as I said above, the team just didn’t have it tonight so I’m not terribly concerned with this game overall. But there is simply no excusing that Semin play at any level of hockey.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 14, 2009 11:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough. Certainly not excusing the play, so I get where you’re coming from.
I really do think the other players need to have some sort of intervention, though – if this keeps up and they can’t recover from his mistakes, it’s an issue the team needs to deal with. Because Boudreau’s just not going to bench Semin and clearly has no answers for this kind of thing – and eventually his production becomes overshadowed by stupid plays and he loses his value.
by Becca H on Nov 14, 2009 11:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And what the hell was up with Theo? He needs to stop at least 2 of those goals. A poor showing.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 14, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He failed both goaltending duties
Make the big save when the team needs it. No soft goals.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 14, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Theo was brutal tonight, minus a few good saves spread out through the game.
I feel I should share that I’m as much of a Theo-apologist as I am a Semin-apologist…rough night for me, really. Not much of a leg to stand on.
by Becca H on Nov 14, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
heh. true that. but I would say Theo wasn’t that much worse than the whole of the team (minus pocket OV and BMo), fwiw.
[also fwiw, I’m right up there with the Theo-apologists….]
by Vinn on Nov 15, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wish Neuvy would develop already so I could stop having a heart attach every night.
Theo scares me in goal. Every shot that gets through I expect the other team to score on. Seriously.
Varly scares me every time he can’t field the puck cleanly and leaves a rebound. Usually when he’s about 4 feet out of the little blue area.
I’m not even asking for Kolzig in his prime here, just someone where it isn’t heart in throat on every shot.
by HateOffSeason on Nov 15, 2009 7:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Neuvirth was in the NHL, he’d give you heart attacks too. It’s in the nature of young goalies.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 15, 2009 10:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. There needs to be a “come to Jesus” moment.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 14, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and eventually his production becomes overshadowed by stupid plays and he loses his value.
Isn’t that what last week was about?
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 14, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One other thing that I thought of after is that with AO and Knuble out, there’s a bit of a leadership void. Shouldn’t be huge, but worth noting.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 15, 2009 9:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m mostly in agreement with you. We shouldn’t take too much from this but I would like to see some sort of adjustment made against trapping teams. Maybe just having AO back and giving top effort will be enough, but I’m not convinced.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 14, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He has to sit. There just isn’t any other remedy left. He has to sit.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Nov 14, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not knowing/recalling your stance on this, this is kind of like Mike Wallace saying Vietnam is unwinnable.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 14, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What’s one more game with one Russian sniper in the press box?
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 14, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know if I’d even take him on the trip. No use getting the whole team infected with the H1Semin1 virus (symptoms: acute brain cramps)
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Nov 14, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Love the passion. I make my decision based on what is the stronger statement. Making him watch the team play without him on AO’s first night back, or make him go home and not have to worry about hockey for a day or two?
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 14, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess you would recommend playing Sloan as the 12th forward, in that case since BG is injured again.
by CapsFan75 on Nov 14, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your anti Semin bias is pretty laughable at this point. That’s two nights in a row you or a colleague calls him out in a negative bullet point. Yes, his turnover was a terrible play, but:
He had one giveaway tonight. It ended up terribly. But that moved him into a tie for first place on the team in giveaways at 15 on the year along with… wait for it… Ovechkin (in fewer games), Backis and Green. He’s 3rd on the team in takeaways.
He also drew the penalty that resulted in the first PP (when Flash scored). Did I say first PP? That was the only PP the Caps had all night.
He’s now drawn 8 penalties — tops on the team. He’s +2 in penalty plus/minus.
These past two nights he’s had passes through the crease or on the tape that should have resulted easily in a handful of goals if guys could finish.
But the real proof of the tiresome bias is that another star player has an absolutely terrible game, and he goes unnoticed by you — just more of your selection bias. Who was good for: 2 for 10 on the dot, 2 shots and second-worst on the team -3 rating? All in a sad <16 minutes TOI (i guess he was gassed or Gabby had seen enough)? Backis. Does a bad night make him a terrible player who ought to be traded? I sure don’t think so, but I am struck that you only take your favorite whipping boy to task.
Too bad, b/c the rest of your analysis generally rocks.
by CarlosLA on Nov 14, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Where is your avatar sir?
"And next year it will be ours."
by Ovechwin on Nov 14, 2009 11:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Musta left it at Semin’s place
Void Boyd! Go with Perreault!
by jordanDC on Nov 14, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I called him out in a bullet point because his turnover was pretty bad and led to the game-winning goal – but believe me, you have an ally in your pro-Semin stance. I do, however, need to call it like I see it, and that was just a bad play.
Agreed that Backstrom had an off night. It’s rare for him to do that, though, and he was invisible rather than blatantly horrible, like the rest of the team. Flash was almost the same way – I just mentioned him over Backstrom because he also scored a goal while finishing -4.
by Becca H on Nov 14, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your anti Semin bias is pretty laughable at this point.
Is it bias to say that the game changing play, as defined by three Capitals players and the team’s coach was the game-changing play? That was the starting point for the discussion.
That’s two nights in a row you or a colleague calls him out in a negative bullet point.
That doesn’t make it biased. Last night he should have been going to the net harder to make a play on a potential rebound. Tonight he made a terrible, game-changing play. Those are perfectly valid complaints to have. It’s not bias – it’s what’s happening on the ice.
He had one giveaway tonight. It ended up terribly. But that moved him into a tie for first place on the team in giveaways at 15 on the year along with… wait for it… Ovechkin (in fewer games), Backis and Green. He’s 3rd on the team in takeaways.
Not all giveaways are created equal. A giveaway when you’re one-on-three against the opposition and deep in their zone is worlds apart from a giveaway cutting across the blue line while your defense are changing and your line has been on the ice over a minute. Plus giveaways and takeaways are very questionable statistics because they’re subjective.
He also drew the penalty that resulted in the first PP (when Flash scored). Did I say first PP? That was the only PP the Caps had all night.
Fair enough, and good on him. It was a nice play. Doesn’t excuse his turnover, nor does it change that the turnover was the turning point of the game.
He’s now drawn 8 penalties — tops on the team. He’s +2 in penalty plus/minus.
No, he’s not. Semin’s taken eight penalties this year. Six of them have been in the offensive zone.
But the real proof of the tiresome bias is that another star player has an absolutely terrible game, and he goes unnoticed by you — just more of your selection bias.
If Backstrom had made that play, we’d be wondering what the hell he was thinking too. Or if Green made it. Or Ovechkin. Or Morrison. Or Laich. Or anyone else on the roster.
The reason the play was singled was because it was the play that turned the tide of the game, not because of who committed it. If you’re talking about that one play and it’s impact on the game, not throwing in an unrelated note about how Backstrom had a bad night doesn’t mean you have some anti-Semin bias. Rather I’d argue that the need the deflect from the reality of the situation – that Semin made an awful play that had a huge impact on the game – by pointing out that someone else had a bad night is much more indicative of a bias.
by David M. Getz on Nov 14, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
re: takeaway/giveaway being subjective: shoudn’t matter when you’re comparing players on the same team. They are subject to the same biases.
re: your penatly count on Semin. According to behindthenet, my count is right (6 taken, 8 drawn after tonight) and your count is wrong (8 taken). What’s your source?
re two nights in a row don’t make it bias — yep. It’s the 2 season long diatribes against the guy.
If you really think this team lost tonight b/c of Semin, well then there’s no amount of discussion that’s going to talk you off that. I’d say that when your supposed #1 goalie is a sieve, that’s the core problem, but then again some of you here decided Theo had things worked out (and that Varly was out of his depth) after all of two weeks into the seaon.
by CarlosLA on Nov 15, 2009 12:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately, it seems that Semin is the convenient scape goat this year any time the Caps lose. His errors are treated worse and castigated worse than anyone else.
I feel like the mother of the bad kid right now.
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Woe is me in the Semin Lobby
Everyone has been called out for poor play. You’re getting mad at the people pointing out Semin’s mistakes when you should be looking at the guy making the mistakes.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 1:00 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
re: your penatly count on Semin. According to behindthenet, my count is right (6 taken, 8 drawn after tonight) and your count is wrong (8 taken). What’s your source?
He has sixteen penalty minutes, and they’re all minors. The BtN data is 5-on-5 play that results in a powerplay and one his penalties can 5-on-4 and the other can at the same time as an opposing player’s.
If you really think this team lost tonight b/c of Semin, well then there’s no amount of discussion that’s going to talk you off that.
I don’t think the team lost because of Semin, but I do think that turnover and the subsequent goal were the game’s turning point.
by David M. Getz on Nov 15, 2009 9:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Aside from giveaway/takeaway being a subjective stat varying from arena to arena, Semin’s drawn penalties per 60 is twice that of Backstrom’s, and they’re equivalent on defense when it comes to ES GAON/60. Semin did a great job in Newark last time, and continues to commit penalties that cost the team games.
To say that there’s a bias is laughable, as Backstrom play has been mentioned in a recap thread or two this year which you might not have seen before. Feel free to search for them.
But yeah, if you want to call it bias to make yourself feel better, go right ahead.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 14, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Problem was, that turnover wasn’t only one play in an otherwise good game. Semin had other bad passes to a Devils dman (including on the rush prior to the infamous turnover) and he generally seemed completely uninterested in working hard enough to get the puck deep or fight through checks to get in on the forecheck and pressure the Devils dmen. When he wasn’t making bad turnovers, his play was just lackadaisical and ineffective.
I agree that Backstrom had a bad night, and most of what I wrote above applies just as equally to him. But he gets more of a pass for 2 reasons: 1) these nights are rarer for him and 2) when he has off nights like tonight he is just invisible, not actively hurting the team like Semin did tonight and has on many others. It’s not good that the Caps top C is invisible, but it’s better than having their (for now) top W commit brain farts that lead directly to goals against.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 14, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I agree, the anti-Semin bias is downright ridiculous. Yes, he makes turnovers and has bad penalties. But we have numerous other guys who get penalized as much if not more.
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 12:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually no Caps forward still with the team took more penalties per minute than Semin did last year and only Gordon (who has been hurt) and Knuble have taken more this year.
And I don’t think saying that the guy who committed an egregious, stupid, game-changing play committed an egregious, stupid, game-changing play is bias. It’s just what happened.
by David M. Getz on Nov 15, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And I don’t think saying that the guy who committed an egregious, stupid, game-changing play committed an egregious, stupid, game-changing play is bias. It’s just what happened.
Yup! Which is why I added it. You know me, I’m as unbiased toward Semin as they come – to the point that I’m fairly certain I drive you and JP crazy ;)
by Becca H on Nov 15, 2009 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nah, reasonable people can disagree. I just think it’s silly to think that noting Semin’s turnover and it’s implications – after they’d been noted by three of his teammates and his coach – isn’t a very strong argument in favor of any bias.
by David M. Getz on Nov 15, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not on an individual instance. But when you noted his turnovers and penalties last week also… it becomes a pattern.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The argument is not: you note a bad turnover and therefore I say bias.
The argument has been going on for some time: Semin is the most criticized top 10 guy on this team, on this blog (at least until Flash reverts to form). Some of you do nothing but note the bad. There’s a lot of good — way more good than bad. Since you occasionally like to link to Puck Prospectus, then of course you’ll know that after playing in only 75% of the games last year, Semin finished 9th in the NHL in GVT. Ninth in the league.
by CarlosLA on Nov 15, 2009 12:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Semin being the most criticized Top 10 guy on the team. That is the understatement of the year.
I hope for his sake that Boudreau and his teammates have a better opinion than most of the bloggers and posters are here.
If I were in Semin’s shoes, and I were being criticized that strongly, I’d be gone after this year. Seriously.
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 1:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is there another top ten player that you think deserves more criticism than Semin?
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tonight? Theo, maybe Backstrom and Flash. But I don’t think that’s what you’re asking.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 15, 2009 1:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I’m talking on the season. If I’m not delusional Theo, Backstrom, and Flash have all been picked on either in the recap or the comments.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 1:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, for sure. And I know one commenter who’s starting to get a bit over the top in calling for both ShaMo and Juice to be moved (or hell, just waived).
More I think about it, the more I love that formulation above, “the most criticized Top 10 guy on the team.” Right, because the guys we bitch about who actually suck are not considered Top 10. We all acknowledge that Semin is Top 10 (i.e., better than 13 other players on the roster). The rest of the Top 10 is Top 10 because they’re consistently solid performers. Semin’s the only one (other than maybe Green) who screws up all the time and still manages to be Top 10 because of his sick talent.
By the way, in case I haven’t been clear enough, I’ve had it with both ShaMo and Juice. They really need to be dumped. (What’s that you say — the message has come through already? OK)
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 15, 2009 1:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I’m with you. No Mo’ Juice! Vote Hejda/Alzner.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 1:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
(But how does CBJ even consider moving him on that contract?)
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 2:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That just means we have to give up more to pry him loose.
In all seriousness, I think Tyutin is a better candidate from their perspective, and I’d love to have him too.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 15, 2009 10:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Boudreau clearly has a high opinion of him. You can tell in every post-game presser.
And don’t worry – Semin doesn’t read the papers or the blogs. You can tell, because none of the valid constructive criticism made there has impacted him in the slightest.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 15, 2009 9:27 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Last year, and early this year Semin was not criticized nearly as much. But lately, there has been far more bad than good. In the last 9 games Semin is 2-2-4 -2 10PIM. He has had 0 points in 7 of the 9 games. He has had 3 or fewer shots in 5 of the 9 games. He was a + player only once. And this is all before getting into subjective things like bad turnovers, bad decision making, and a general lack of effort.
Semin is the most criticized top 10 player because he by far gives more ammo for criticism than the others. As was already mentioned, only looking at the good and refusing to look at the bad is no less biased than pointing out horrific turnovers and bad penalties.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 15, 2009 1:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And this is all before getting into subjective things like bad turnovers, bad decision making, a general lack of effort, injuries, and contract status.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 1:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The issue with bias is as much (or more) quality that quantity, though, isn’t it? If Semin’s getting criticized because he deserves to get criticized – like last night – that’s not bias, that’s being critical of a bad play. If we were coming out and writing stuff like, “Sure Semin had two goals and an assists, but did you see that pass he missed by an inch? He stinks” that’d be one thing. But I don’t think that’s happening.
by David M. Getz on Nov 15, 2009 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He had one giveaway tonight.
This is where you lost me. The pass that turned into a goal against was not the first giveaway — it was not even the first giveaway of that kind (trying to thread a cross-ice pass through multiple defenders).
Careful throwing words like “bias” around. The bias that’s affecting things may be your own.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 15, 2009 12:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tonight is a great example of how unreliable giveaway and takeaway stats are. As I mentioned in my response, Semin had an almost identical giveaway prior to the one leading to the GWG (but at least another Caps player was in the screen for that one).
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 15, 2009 12:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Killer makes a very good point. Look I did giveaways (as well as ice time/face-offs/hits) for the Caps coaches (3 different ones) for over 10 years and they are very subjective. However, if you go back and watch the Devils first goal it starts with a Semin bad play against Colin White. We would have called that a giveaway (takeaways were included as giveaways then), the NHL probably calls it a takeaway now. Whatever you want to call it, that play by Semin led to the Devils having a 4 on 3 and the first goal.
by Ed F - WNST on Nov 15, 2009 12:47 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
check the game stats. He was credited with one giveaway. You might have your own scoresheet but that’s tough for anyone else to see.
by CarlosLA on Nov 15, 2009 12:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you watch the game?
I’m seriously asking. Did you watch the game? Do you really think Semin gave the puck away only once?
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 15, 2009 12:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I saw multiple giveaways by multiple players – I was shocked to only see two on the scoresheet. Brooks even had one, and he rarely turns the puck over!
by Becca H on Nov 15, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's my problem with Semin . . .
Look there’s no denying his talent and skill. There’s is also no denying his ability to make stupendously boneheaded plays with alarming regularity or his penchant for taking nights off.
It is also true that by the numbers, with Semin, the good outweighs the bad. Of course, it seems like “the bad” with Semin always comes at a bad time (offensive zone penalty) or leads to the opposition scoring. And it’s true that #8 may give have more giveaways than Semin, but you can almost guarantee that if Ovi made a mistake that led to a breakaway – he’d be backchecking like a madman to prevent it from becoming a goal.
But here’s my real problem with #28: This was his chance to step up, to live up to all that potential that everyone talks about, to fill the void in the offense, and to show that he is a true star in the NHL. And he didn’t do it. He played well against cellar dwellers, average against average teams, and atrociously against another top team in the east. He just didn’t step it up. Don’t put it on the coach to motivate him — he’s a multimillionaire professional athlete in a contract year, what else does he need?
by Gin and Tonic on Nov 15, 2009 2:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d note that we do “ten notes” every game. Often, there are 15 or 20 we could list (and on this night, that would have no doubt included Backstrom in the dot, Flash’s minus-4, and other points), but our recaps are meant as a launching point for discussion on that game.
I don’t have much to add that hasn’t been mentioned already in response to the rest of your comment, but will say that if you want sunshine blown up your ass in every post, there’s a blog for that.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 15, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The worst part about that was it was the second time in 30 seconds!
by renstar on Nov 15, 2009 12:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Semin’s turnover was a game-changer.
Well, “you can only tell certain people so many times …”
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 14, 2009 10:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately the end of that sentence isn’t “…before you have to start sitting them”.
Honestly, I try to avoid telling Boudreau how to do his job because he’s a pretty damn good coach. But at some point it has to go beyond just telling him.
by David M. Getz on Nov 14, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Believe it or not, I actually agree with you on that. Sure, Hanlon did it on occasion but maybe an older, more mature Semin will learn from it.
He won’t know until he tries it, right?
by Becca H on Nov 14, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem (or maybe rationalization) is that two weeks ago, it couldn’t be done because AO was out; now that he’s coming back and Knuble’s down, there is some reason for not doing it again.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 14, 2009 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or would you rather have Sloan back as forward on Tuesday? I’m assuming Boyd Gordon will be out on Tuesday since he’s hurt again.
by CapsFan75 on Nov 14, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Assuming there’s a message benching, I could live with Sloan up front for a game, otherwise there’s no need (AO comes to the top line, move Flash/Fehr down to the 3rd, Bradley to the 4th).
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 15, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So your proposed lines would be:
1) Ovi/Backstrom/Flash
2) Laich/Morrison/Fehr
3) Sloan/Perrault/Clark
4) Laing/’Steckel/Bradley
Or would you propose to blow the lines up entirely and go with a totally different set of lines, firing tonight’s first line from the first line entirely:
1) Ovi/Perrault/Laich
2) Flash/Backstrom/Fehr
3) Laing/Morrison/Clark
4) Sloan/Steckel/Bradley
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh God, I’m not one of those line people, but I’ll try:
No benching:
8-19-21
14-9-28
17-85-16
53-39-10
Benching:
8-19-21
14-9-16
17-85-10
53-39-85
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 15, 2009 12:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we wern’t benching Semin, he would be on the 2nd line, of course.
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 12:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
8-19-21
14-9-17
28-85-16
53-39-10
by Yoshietree on Nov 15, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For two reasons:
A) As F&B alluded to below, there’s no need to take 17 off of the MP line, or to break the MP line up for that matter.
B) With the way this seems to have gone in the past, I’d suspect BB may do something, albeit a little on the superficial side when it comes to Semin and discipline, like missing a PP shift or two. I’m not saying I’d agree, I’m just going by past history.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 15, 2009 12:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is, BB has an option if he wants to demote a skill player. MP can play with anyone on any line. If he wants to drop Semin in game he can. He just doesn’t.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ain’t frustration grand?
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 15, 2009 12:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup. But in the long run this isn’t hurting MP’s development so I’m cool with it. Slow cooking doesn’t hurt, I guess that’s the silver lining.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, and if Clark needs to stay with MP, swap Fehr and Clark. But I think dropping Semin to the third line and limiting his ice time, to include PP, will have more success than sitting him in the press box. Granted, I have nothing to base that on…just my opinion.
by Yoshietree on Nov 15, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I feel the exact opposite way. If you’re going to send a message, send him up to the press box. I think having Semin sit on the bench but get limited ice time is counterproductive. But then, I’m just going on gut feeling too.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 15, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Swap 16 and 17 and I’m in.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. I think Clark and Perreault have found some surprisingly nice chemistry, while Fehr and Flash have worked well together in the past.
by Becca H on Nov 15, 2009 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A) As F&B alluded to below
Where’s my coffee?
by Yoshietree on Nov 15, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One slight problem with your lines sans my favorite “bad boy”. You’ve used #85 twice. I’m afraid the cloning technology has not advanced to the point where we can use Perrault (or anyone else) twice.
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
85, 89, six of one…
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 15, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nah, he was just double teaming him because he’s so good. :-)
by gfcaps fan on Nov 15, 2009 8:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll buy that as reality. If we’re talking some crazy fantasy with MP playing with AO I think there’s no need to take 17 off of MP’s wing. 17 hasn’t looked credible offensively since… he played with AO that time. That allows you to still make two other rounded scoring lines. Swap Clark and Laich from CapsFan75’s proposal. Then swap Brads and Q.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, go ahead and leave Clark with Perrault and put them with Ovi. Yes, time for a brand new first line. Todays first line was essentially fired. Their ice time was reduced. Well that’s what happens when you’re minus 9. Ironically, in spite of all the criticism of Semin, he actually wasn’t as far in the whole in the minus department tonight and had more Time on Ice than his mates.
I had assumed that Ovi would go on the line with Flash and Backstrom and that Semin would be odd man out. Now, I’m not so sure. Given that the whole first line has essentially been “fired”, it’s time for a new first line.
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 2:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sloan, ironically enough, has been our 2nd leading ice time getter among our blue liners. So, moving him to forward would now be an adjustment. (Oisk would appreciate gettig back in the lineup.)
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 2:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, he’s going to get benched? He had more ice time than Backis. I think that tells you who the coaches thought had a better game.
by CarlosLA on Nov 15, 2009 12:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which would explain why Backstrom has been called out in this game (and others) by Boudreau post game pressers. Oh wait…
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 15, 2009 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Every Caps loss is Semin’s fault. Or that’s what they say anyway. (Okay, this comment is ridiculous.)
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 2:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2 of 4 so far.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 15, 2009 8:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think that’s a great way to measure it, and if it is Mathieu Perreault has terrible luck that coaches keep looking away when he makes great plays.
by David M. Getz on Nov 15, 2009 9:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As always, this loss hurts — it sucks. No, i don’t have an avatar and I will not -blah.
by Zelda on Nov 14, 2009 10:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Expect to be prodded – nay mocked – until others joing in or until you get an eating disorder, whichever comes first.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Nov 14, 2009 10:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And then we will all refer only to the legend of Zelda.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 14, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I feel that this horribly bad pun should not go unnoticed, so…this is me noticing.
I would say “rec’d” but I don’t want to encourage this behavior.
by Becca H on Nov 15, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And we will make suggestions like this until you get so frustrated you have to choose something that you actually like.
"Camaraderie, that's what the Washington Capitals are all about."
by CapitalCentre on Nov 14, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Becca — bless you for writing this recap. I know it ain’t the most fun thing to do after a disappointing and ugly loss.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 14, 2009 10:59 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Eh…it gives me a chance to let out my bitchy rage, it’s not all bad. Although I did have to stray from my initial pre-game plan of just writing ten bullet points that all said “I HATE THE DEVILS”.
by Becca H on Nov 14, 2009 11:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
With a PS saying I hate the trap?
"And next year it will be ours."
by Ovechwin on Nov 14, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
(But honestly)
Tonight we can’t bitch about the trap because we had them in a 2 goal hole 5 minutes in. If we just play a smart game and put the puck behind their D they can’t start really trapping; they need to score. We let them get back in the game almost immediately and then the second period happens. We were in a position to make them open up and we didn’t hold it.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 14, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was trying to go for the easy joke. I agree we should have kept that lead. 5 unanswered goals are just plain bad.
"And next year it will be ours."
by Ovechwin on Nov 14, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You know I hate the trap. I’m just pissed we squandered the opportunity too.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 14, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The trap is where hockey goes to die. Sadly (?) tonight they didn’t even have to trap, they just waited for us to screw up and put the puck behind our very shaky goaltender.
I’m just glad we only have one game left against the Devils. Seems every year there’s one team we just can’t beat, and the Devils are ours this year.
by Becca H on Nov 14, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fourth time’s the charm?
"And next year it will be ours."
by Ovechwin on Nov 14, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I justgladhope we only have one game left against the Devils
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 14, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate the Pens worse than the Devils.
by CapsFan75 on Nov 14, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, well sure – me too.
My hatred for the Devils is very different. It’s more of an annoyance – I’m tired of playing them, I’m tired of Brodeur, I’m tired of the trap, etc. I liken it to how I feel about the Panthers, just so sick of them even existing. With the Pens (and Flyers and Rangers and Sabres) it’s a visceral but fun hatred. If that makes any sense.
by Becca H on Nov 14, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Semin
J.P., Becca, F&B, etc. you guys rock over here…not sure if you saw my post at WNST.net tonight but I’ve had it with Semin:
http://wnst.net/wordpress/edfrankovic/2009/11/14/devils-beat-ovechkin-less-caps-5-2/
I have tried to give him the benefit of the doubt but like a current NHL Scouting Director has told me time and time again: “Semin has played the same way since he was 16 years old. He just doesn’t give a f—-!”
by Ed F - WNST on Nov 14, 2009 11:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hey, a celeb in the house! Thanks for stopping by, Ed.
And yeah… it’s certainly an opinion that seems to be gathering support.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 14, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You are welcome J.P., I read you guys all the time but haven't commented much. Keep up the great work on this site!
by Ed F - WNST on Nov 14, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll echo my thanks for stopping by!
And it’s true, the tides are turning for ol’ Sasha – but I’m standing my ground as one of the last remaining Semin supporters in the house, for now, at least. Check back with me in a few months.
by Becca H on Nov 14, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m probably the last Semin fan standing. And probably will be for life. (That’s what happens when you have a kid like Semin.)
by CapsFan75 on Nov 14, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nah, I still believe in the Semin-ic faith.
Please, sir, I want some BMo.
by Steck It Out on Nov 14, 2009 11:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I’m a disgruntled fan. The wasted potential just blows my mind!
"And next year it will be ours."
by Ovechwin on Nov 14, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m probably the last Semin fan standing.
Not picking on you, but everyone who defends Semin thinks they’re the last Semin fan standing. It’s just not true. In fact, I’m willing to bet that every single person who reads this blog is a Semin fan in that they want him to be the best he can be – because he certainly can be one of the best – and help this team. I know I do.
Valid criticism, though, has a place and shouldn’t be ignored just because we feel some empathy for a guy for one reason or another. I was sick as hell this summer when I posted the news about Theodore. But it doesn’t give him a free pass for games like last night.
Bottom line: My Semin, right or wrong. If right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 15, 2009 9:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we need another in defense of Semin post, the last one seems to have been effective!
"And next year it will be ours."
by Ovechwin on Nov 14, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You should stick with him. The haters have no idea how hard it is to find a talent like him. I guess they think you just tank in the standings for a few years and great players automatically fall to you. Wish it were that easy.
We’re incredibly lucky to have this phenomenal core talent — Semin included.
by CarlosLA on Nov 14, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s the thing, though – I don’t really care how much talent Semin, or any other player has. I care how productive they are and while that’s correlated with how productive a guy is, the two aren’t one and the same. I don’t dispute that Semin has a wealth of talent – in fact just tonight I was having a conversation where I said I thought he was the most naturally gifted player in the NHL. But talent doesn’t automatically translate into results as Alexandre Daigle, Nikolai Zherdev, or Alexei Yashin can attest, which is why they’re not as valuable as guys like Mikko Koivu, Dustin Brown, or Mike Knuble.
by David M. Getz on Nov 14, 2009 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
see above. By GVT, he was the 9th best player in the league last year (and he did it, better or worse, playing only 62 games). That’s productivity.
If you really think Mike Knuble is more valuable than Alex Semin, well, then that tells me all I need to know.
by CarlosLA on Nov 15, 2009 1:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But talent doesn’t automatically translate into results as Alexandre Daigle, Nikolai Zherdev, or Alexei Yashin can attest, which is why they’re not as valuable as guys like Mikko Koivu, Dustin Brown, or Mike Knuble.
And where did he say Knuble is better than Semin? I see two lists of players, and Semin’s not on either one.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 15, 2009 1:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Most of the Caps fan base would vote for Mike Knuble as more valuable than Semin.
I love Knuble but I don’t quite agree with that assessment.
I guess you and I are the last Semin fans standing (along with Mark of the Mark’s Musings blog.)
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 2:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Feering Ronry?
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 2:33 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
that’s kinda like semin. “how many time do i have to tell you? there are no f***ing weapons of mass destruction!” then he passes to parise and game over.
by twistedlogic on Nov 15, 2009 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Knuble has been more valuable to the Caps so far this year – his 5-on-5 +/-ON has killed Semin’s. I do, however, think Semin has the potential to be the more valuable player in the long-run, even over the course of this season.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 15, 2009 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this I’m a Semin defender!" martyr act gas gotten very old. don’t y’all have something constructive to add? Because all I see is the same crying about how everyone is so mean picking on poor Semin. Yeah, poor, Semin, sublimely talent with the hockey sense of an eff’ing rock.
Just because he’s the most talent doesn’t make it impossible for him to also make the most boneheaded mistakes.
by RedBirdie on Nov 15, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
see above. By GVT, he was the 9th best player in the league last year (and he did it, better or worse, playing only 62 games). That’s productivity.
I should have clarified: by “productivity” I wasn’t referring only to scoring points but to anything that gives the team a team a better change to win (i.e. I consider Semin’s ability to kill penalties productivity and his tendency to take them to hurt his overall productivity) and GVT doesn’t track Semin’s two weakest areas, giveaways and penalties taken, and frankly I think the statistics they use to do the defensive part of that aren’t all that great (although I do think Semin is a good defensive player).
Factor in the negative parts of Semin’s game (and, arguably, that Puck Prospectus projects him falling off some this year) and he’s simply not a top ten forward in the NHL, and he should be given his talent. He’s very good, but he’s not as good as his talent allows him to be – and that’s my point.
If you really think Mike Knuble is more valuable than Alex Semin, well, then that tells me all I need to know.
Strawman. I didn’t say that I think Knuble is more valuable than Semin. I said that sometimes players with less talent contribute more to wining hockey games than players with more talent and gave examples. Semin was not part of that example.
by David M. Getz on Nov 15, 2009 9:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I bet the Senators (and then the Islanders) sold Yashin to their fans in the same way.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 14, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Semin’s an improvement over Yashin.
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They all say that
Until they leave you for Russia.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If it weren’t for Russia looming in the distance I don’t think I’d be so entrenched in the trade Semin camp
by Yoshietree on Nov 15, 2009 12:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately that also kills his trade value and makes him harder to trade. If we can’t get 85 cents I think it might be smarter to just take him on a 2-3 year contract and hope he’s healthy for one of the playoff seasons and then he’s gone.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. I just don’t think that it drops his trade value too much. There are enough teams out there in need of scoring that 85 cents on the dollar should be reasonable…especially if he’s packaged right.
by Yoshietree on Nov 15, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well Yashin was healthier and has 40+ goal and 80+ point seasons in the clutch and grab era, so he’s got that over Semin.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 15, 2009 12:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And he was a Captain.
Whereas Semin provides no leadership.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s not really fair. Semin’s not here to provide leadership – not everyone can be a leader. And while Yashin was a captain, he wore the C for two pretty crappy teams w/ little to no leadership outside of the captaincy.
by Becca H on Nov 15, 2009 12:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Another victim of F&B’s masked snark, methinks.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Nov 15, 2009 12:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely. I tip waitresses, not snark.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dammit. I thought it was strange for someone to praise Yashin for being a leader!
I’m an easy mark this late at night, F&B – still, well done.
by Becca H on Nov 15, 2009 12:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks. If you ever catch me saying anything remotely positive about Alexei Yashin it’s probably snark. I have zero respect for that guy.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Semin has found himself in a better situation than Yashin did.
I think Semin’s more motivated than Yashin was because he has Ovechkin beside him. I think there is less of a bright spotlight on Semin because Ovechkin is beside him.
I think Semin is Yashin, just luckier.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 15, 2009 12:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Plus, Yashin did NOT have a good relationship with Ottawa’s other superstar at the time.
Semin gets along great with Ovi. One thing good we can say about Semin (even though there aren’t too many people around here who say good things about him) is that his friends are very loyal to him.
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 2:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he’s better than when he was 16.
by CapsFan75 on Nov 15, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Certainly he is better than he was at 16 overall. But the point from the scout was he didn’t care then and he doesn’t care now either. He isn’t talking about Semin’s ability. We all know he has the skill. The quote & text I posted were from two different people and both have worked in hockey for 20+ years.
by Ed F - WNST on Nov 15, 2009 12:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
10¢ heads don’t mature very well
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 15, 2009 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Caps’ve been on a bit of a rollercoaster lately, it was time for a letdown. Hopeful three days will get tem settled down again and they come out strong against the Rangers.
Brendan Morrison wore the alternate “A” tonight and fully deserved it. He fought all night.
Pride of the Wolverines!
IS PЯESS BOX AGAIN? DЯAT. SHOUT OUT TO KИUBLE.
by Your Nation's Capital on Nov 14, 2009 11:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I would say B-Mo has been a pleasant surprise, but I’m feeling pretty smug right now – he’s been one of my favorite non-Caps for years, and before the season started I remember saying his was just as underrated a signing as Knuble’s. He’s been just terrific, and was again tonight.
by Becca H on Nov 15, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if we play these dudes in the 'offs
…we’re in deep trouble.
haven’t missed brash at all this year but that sleepy last 20 minutes when we were just going through the motions were begging for some kind of sign of life, whether a fight or a hit or something. Everybody looked like they wanted to go home. Back-to-backs, yeah but still. We straight up capitulated and didn’t show any fire whatsoever. Everything’s sh’ts and giggles when we’re ahead, but it’s not a very promising sign when another team can just demoralize you that easily.
by DonnieKnutts on Nov 15, 2009 12:24 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well, these kind of games happen – for whatever reason they gave up early and they’ll just have to rest up and move on to the Rangers. As for the playoffs, I’m not too concerned about facing the Devils, if only because regular season means nothing. Look at our record against the Pens last year.
Also, while the Devils have the goaltending (for now) I don’t think they’ve got the defense to stop our attack for seven straight games, or the offense to match it.
…of course you could also chalk all of this up to wishful thinking.
by Becca H on Nov 15, 2009 12:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
haven’t missed brash at all this year…whether a fight or a hit or something.
Seems like a nonsequitor to me. Did Brash do much hitting or fighting last year?
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 15, 2009 12:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He hit the ice when he fought Wade Belak. I know that much.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
A devilzzz fan would
tell you that their top 2 D were out tonight.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
True – but a fan of hockey in general could reply that their top 2 D are Johnny Oduya and Paul Martin. They’re not going to make us forget about Nick Lidstrom and Bobby Orr anytime soon…
by Becca H on Nov 15, 2009 12:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. We get back AO and they get back those guys… I like that exchange.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 1:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Me too – just for the sheer number of times Oduya drops his stick in a single game. Ever watch that guy? It’s like his hands are covered in Crisco or something.
by Becca H on Nov 15, 2009 1:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point I hadn’t been thinking about as I was moping over the results. I didn’t see much of the game last night; we were visiting friends, but I caught the beginning of the second period. I saw enough to make me wonder how we’d gotten out of the first with a lead (didn’t know when the goals were scored). All I’ve been thinking about is how hard it’s going to be get past the Devils if we play so badly against them now, I wasn’t giving any thought to how it could be different with Ovie back in the lineup. I guess we’ll see in a little more than a month.
by gfcaps fan on Nov 15, 2009 8:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The more I watch Semin on the ice and his body language, the more I think he’s already thinking his next contract will be paid in rubles.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Nov 15, 2009 12:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I just don’t think he’s thinking.
I’m sticking with my “Brazil on a bad day” theory. He just wants to play the beautiful game and make highlights, regardless of situation.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 15, 2009 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree 128%. I’ve always thought that was the case – he wants to just be able to use his skill and play that kind of game rather than the “North American” style, with more grit and more defense. His infamous interview w/ the Crosby reference was very telling in that regard.
At the same time, he’s here because he wants to play in the best league in the world, with the best players in the world. If he wants to stay, he’ll adjust – and I think he can adjust. People keep saying he’s never going to change, but he’s only 25. I’m only a little older and I’ve changed since I was his age. It’s not like he’s a 38-year-old pulling this crap.
by Becca H on Nov 15, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
128%
If we’re only agreeing in powers of two, I’m 64% on board with that idea.
by Knee high to a duck on Nov 15, 2009 1:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m 85% sure personnel is not being utilized to it’s maximum potential.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 1:10 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
85%
I think I see what you did there.
by Knubles and Bits on Nov 15, 2009 1:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that number is actually about 27% low.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Nov 15, 2009 9:39 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I’ve been of this opinion the last couple of years, but I’m starting to head into JP’s “we need a come to Jesus moment” direction. Maybe it’s time for another team meeting and a smashed ipod.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Nov 15, 2009 1:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do it. Find out if that’s what it is. If it’s that, great. If not, then we know.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 15, 2009 1:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interestingly enough, Semin didn’t take a penalty in the two games after that smashed iPod incident…
(Playing fast and loose with the word “interestingly”, right?)
by Becca H on Nov 15, 2009 1:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At the same time, he’s here because he wants to play in the best league in the world, with the best players in the world.
I’m not so sure. Semin clearly loves hockey, he’s a rink rat through and through (when Green and Ovie were both out, watching Semin try to convince someone to stay out and play the tip in game at the end of warm-ups was both amusing and a little heartbreaking). I agree, he wants to use his skill and make a highlight reel. But at the same time, I think he’s in the NHL, in part, because, well, that’s what you’re supposed to do when you’re that good. I just imagine that he’s this sublime kid in Siberia who is just that much better than everyone else, but didn’t dream every day of playing in North America. Its just something that he fell into.
I don’t have a whole lot of hope that he’ll suddenly turn it around and become the dream player we’ve been waiting for, but I hope against all hope that he does. He’s that good, I want to see him be that top-5 player that he can be. I just don’t know if he wants it bad enough.
by RedBirdie on Nov 15, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Meh.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
by zephyr on Nov 15, 2009 1:06 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
New Jersey doesn’t take a ton of penalties (probably out of fear of waking up next to a horse’s head)
A totally off-topic question, but does anyone know where this saying originated? Every time I hear it even though the thought of a decapitated horse is more gruesome than funny (I horseback rode for over a decade). I assume it’s some sort of mob thing or something?
by kellyn on Nov 15, 2009 2:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Nov 15, 2009 7:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I missed everything after the Caps finished their scoring for the night.
I can say with high confidence that up to that point they were very impressive with puck posession, clearing the crease, getting the puck in deep, working the corners, just very solid in general.
…nothing about how they were playing would have prepared me for the final score I saw that made me choke on my drink watching the high-def tv ESPN updates prior to the lingerie fashion show (No sign of Sean Avery) that spared me the rest of that game.
Obviously, from what I saw, the wheels had to have in fact come off.
by Icebat on Nov 15, 2009 3:15 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Caps did what they do — they played a high-risk/high reward game. The Devils did what they do — they played a “wait until the other team makes a mistake and pound them for it.”
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Nov 15, 2009 7:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was in the building for last nights game with my friend Ed(Devils’ fan) and Mike(a Red Wings fan who just wanted to see a live game with the hopes of an Ovechkin appearance). All three of us agree, after the first period most of the Caps just stopped playing. The rest just stopped playing well(probably not their fault).
A number of times on the rush the Caps had chances at a yawning net on cross ice passes or rebounds, but NO ONE was rushing the net. One instance, in particular, when the game was still a close 3-2, the puck was flung in front the crease where Brodeur was uncharistically out of position to protect against such play. What would have been a simple tap in was thwarted tired and/or lazy legs. The two trailing Caps, I believe Semin and Laich, were simply floating into the zone late.
This happened too many times. Perrault or Fleichman or Backstrom would be pumping the puck up ice, trying to open up space to set up…no one.
And Semin…Semin again. Just floating around the ice, sloppy stick handling(did he dangle away or around anyone last night?), bad passing, and no follow up skating. Once, behind the Devils net, he stopped a clearing attempt with his body. The puck bounced up against the boards and tricked down to the ice a pace behind Sasha…who just skated away. Even if he was at the end of his shift this was an incredibly lazy play. Incredible. He just didn’t seem interested in playing. Ladies and Gentle, your Nylander 2009.
MOTIVATE SEMIN
by Holt Worth on Nov 15, 2009 1:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don’t understand your Nylander reference.
by Yoshietree on Nov 15, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Washington
|
70 | 47 | 14 | 9 | 103 |
|
Atlanta
|
69 | 29 | 29 | 11 | 69 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
69 | 28 | 29 | 12 | 68 |
|
Florida
|
68 | 28 | 30 | 10 | 66 |
|
Carolina
|
69 | 28 | 33 | 8 | 64 |
(updated 3.18.2010 at 9:02 AM EDT)
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