"[Bruce] Boudreau said he talked to [Tom Poti and John Erskine after last night's loss] and 'one was in denial about having a bad game and one wasn't' but he didn't elaborate."
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David Getz
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Gotta be. I can see him and Bruce having differing opinions on the game he had, but I can’t fathom John Erskine not knowing how brutal a night he had.
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Also
Poti had some decent rushes and played the puck well in neutral ice. However, he did screen his goalie twice and put in an own-goal.
Also, I just get the feeling that Erskine is probably more self-flagellant than Poti.
I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe
gotta agree on every count in this conversation.
Poti screening his own goalie and knocking pucks in is nothing new. That’s just a typical game for him.
That’s a bit harsh. I mean, sure, there’s the OT goal in the Pens series and last night, but otherwise you think Poti’s a one screen/own-goal per game?
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no (I’m actually one of his biggest defenders). Just trying to be tongue-in-cheek and epically failing.
Devil's Advocate
When Poti screws up, he screws up ROYALLY. There’s a reason why fans in Edmonton and New York were not particularly sad to see him go. He hasn’t totally escaped from that tendency here in DC.
I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe
He’s a totally different player than he was in Edmonton or even for the Rangers. His screw ups then were epic and borne of a different role than he plays here.
I don’t, of course, think he’s immune from mistakes, but I’d be reluctant to compare the two.
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He’s less of a turnover-machine than he used to be. IIRC his big issue was horrid turnovers either on the PP or when leading the breakout, often leading directly to goals/scoring chances against. He doesn’t do that anymore.
Still, he has shown a remarkable propensity to put his body and/or stick in the wrong place at the wrong time and direct pucks toward his own net. Maybe not once per game, but more often than most of us would like.
I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe
They each screened him once, iirc.
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what’s funny to me is the two of them are the closest things the caps have to “crease clearing defensemen.” guys that will punish you for camping out in front of the net.
and yet the game winner comes from the smallest player in skates, camping out in front of the net.
(to his credit, briere has a knack for finding the right spot for rebounds.)
"Crease-clearing defenseman" is such a friggin’ canard. You can’t punish people for camping out in front of the net or you go to the box. You can play good defense – tie up sticks, get positioning, etc. That’s what NHL D’s today need to do. The days of laying lumber into someone’s lower back are histoire, and anyone clamoring for “punishing defensemen” doesn’t quite get that.
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by J.P. on Oct 7, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Whelp, ditto for the most part. SBN is acting weird for me today. Your post didn’t show up until after I posted and it says yours was 2 mins earlier.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
Yeah, it’s wonky as hell today.
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I’ll agree the opportunity to punish someone in front has changed dramatically than 15 years ago, but I’d be willing to ask Knuble, Holmstrom, etc if those days are really history…
Fair enough, but I think my point is that the prototype for “defensive defenseman” has shifted some from the Scott Stevens model to the Nicklas Lidstrom model as a result of rule changes and whatnot.
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A little Scott Stevens is better than most things. And he’s not even the best example of what I mean, because he was mobile and smart.
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N-n-no… we’re comparing defensemen to defensemen, not forwards to defensemen.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
the more i think about it, it’s just as much of a canard to claim that the days of crease-clearing defense are over. i don’t see where i said anything about taking a stick to another player’s back. players get away with playing the body when the puck isn’t nearby all the time, and in last night’s case, the puck was nearby.
I didn’t mean it as a shot at you at all, Natty, and I definitely wasn’t responding precisely to the point you’d made (despite my “reply”… apologies).
I just find that the “Caps need a crease-clearing D” meme is a bit trite and inaccurate. Sidney Crosby didn’t score all those goals in the playoffs from the edge of the crease because some Brendan Witt type didn’t plow him before the puck got there, he score ‘em because Mike Green (and others) lost him or couldn’t get a stick on his stick. Smarter, more positionally sound D are worth far more than the bruisers to whom most (but not all) refer when they use terms like “crease-clearing.”
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and apologies if “puck clearing Dman” brings about an involuntary reflex; i could’ve used a more precise term, and i’ve been on board the schultz train all along. i do believe there’s a difference between being positionally sound in-and-around the crease, though, and being positionally sound in transition or covering the cycle. establishing position in front of the net goes hand in hand with physically owning your space on the ice.
apparently in today’s NHL as a D-man, you are allowed to knock an opposing forward into your goalie for a power play
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
The funny thing is that Danny boy was in the position he was because of getting cleared by two dmen after his stuff attempt. They can’t just cross check the crap out of him when the puck is up at the point after that.
I think Erskine was looking down and saw that Theo sort of had the puck covered and then it popped loose. 1 second later it was in the net…dunno what he could have done about that.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
erskine’s back (butt) is to briere as the puck is played back towards theo. the puck takes two bounces before briere finds it and deposits it. there’s nothing in the rulebook that prohibits erskine from eliminating briere from that play, allowing JT to cover the puck.
When you’re analyzing a 1 second thing it probably looks a lot worse. I just remember it as Erskine looking down (which is why his back was turned) probably thinking, OK the puck is covered, then it bounces loose and Danny buries it.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
Natty’s point is valid though. Even if he thinks the puck is covered, clobber Briere’s stick, knock him on his ass, be boxing him out. Its not as easy as I’m making it sound, but you can’t have any Flyer, especially one as talented as Briere, standing in front of yourr goalie unchecked no matter what the puck is doing.
i’m more bothered by the “this.” trend. rec it and leave it, i say. or add a supplementary/complementary comment.
by Natty Bumppo on Oct 7, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A lot of people want it to be known when they agree whole heartily with something written by another user. They want to let others know this is how they think or that they support the thought.
So I get your point but it seems much better than 500 posts saying the same exact thing — at least “This.” is very short.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
This.
(And it brings more attention than just a rec.)
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
I think there’s a subtle difference between a rec and “This” but I’m not that invested in the argument.
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
“this” is kinda short hand for “This is 100% right” or “this is bad ass” or “this is the best thing I’ve ever seen, RedBirdie, you are a genius!”
which is why, with enough recs, something turns green and i know to read it.
reading a bunch of this’s just means more to read.
It takes a split second to read and hit Z and move on. It takes longer to have and read this discussion than you’ve spent reading “This” in aggregate. I’ll rec something if I think there is some real good insight, or it’s a funny joke, or if I agree. I use “this” when I want to say “couldn’t have said it better myself” (and it will get a rec).
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
I’d prefer people just rec and move on, truth be told. If you agree, tag something in. However, I’m not going to get mad at people if they feel they have nothing to add. It’s just unfortunate.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
by Whiter Mage on Oct 7, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This ;-)
Oh, and rec’d.
"Let the rest be scared of us." - Sasha Semin
by Scott in Shaw on Oct 7, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
“This” is better than just “^”.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
the archivist knows whether you’ve rec’d a comment, zephyr…..
(cue creepy music)
seriously, though, it gets back to encouraging quality, substantive or funny comments. with less junk on the screen, the good stuff will be easier to find for everyone. i could do without knowing which members of the community agree with each other, if they aren’t adding anything new to the thread.
You’re so right! I should check the profiles of every commenter I like multiple times a day to see what posts they have rec’d! Maybe we can make a FF plugin that will do this or setup a tweet feed.
It will be so much easier than people just clicking Rec and posting:
This! Rec’d Halogenated truculence endemic meme.
=]
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
i could do without knowing which members of the community agree with each other, if they aren’t adding anything new to the thread.
It’s more than just agreement for me. A “this” from me usually means either “I was just about to write this, but you beat me to it,” or “I wish I’d thought of writing this.”
But then, I “this” very rarely. I usually try to add something (and given the quality of my additions, y’all might be better off with a simple “this”)
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 7, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Self deprecation? Clearly an elitist rhetorical technique…
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
I firmly believe that the elite are better than the non-elite.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 7, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
well, that’s not very self-deprecating, now is it?
by mechanicsville on Oct 7, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t say where I fit in.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 7, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
but you’re a rink member, therefore you’re elite, right? isn’t that the way it works?
by mechanicsville on Oct 7, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
yea, the both did
but did poti really knock that puck in? it looked to me like theodore kicked it back and poti just couldnt keep it from crossing the line.
Sorry, but you play a 6/7 D in the 4 slot then you shouldn’t call him out for not being a 4.
Coming Thursday – Bruce is disappointed that Sloan didn’t score a goal – after all, he put him in a forward slot.
Maybe the entire 4th line could just be defensemen …
Alzner – Carlson – Sloan
Erskine – Pothier
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
After thinking about that I would actually love to see it for 1 game.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
That’s what your PS3/xbox is for.
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by J.P. on Oct 7, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, you could probably score a goal like that on Xbox.
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
by Rob Parker on Oct 7, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Schoenfeld once used 4 D on the PK
He had Klee and Housley up front, with a regular pairing in the back. They were pretty effective too…
Let's go Caps!
by MikeL-Pivonka on Oct 7, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
In fairness, Klee was a forward at times too, and Housley was very offensively capable.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
Housley started his NHL career as a center, and is even mistakenly credited as being a 30-goal defenseman in some circles.
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Bruce: “John, how do you think you played tonight?”
Erskine: “Unga Bunga.”
Clearly, he thought he had a poor game.
by Kewibr on Oct 7, 2009 2:34 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Awesome
Thanks for the chuckle. I also would have taken, “Me skate upright!”
I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe
I’m reminded of Dresden Codak’s take on awful science fiction.. when someone goes too far, usually with science, it’s always the familiar trope of “trying to play god” and getting in trouble. Could be a similar issue for Erskine, trying to add the enforcer role to his repertoire.
Or, to simplify, “Me am play gods!”
http://dresdencodak.com/2009/09/22/caveman-science-fiction/
Enjoy.
Winterion Game Studios
Visit us online at : http://winterion.com
by winterion on Oct 7, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Poti’s potentially got a point in that he was paired with John Erskine, which is kind of asking for trouble.
Still…not good by either of them.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
Poti does a lot of things well, or he wouldn’t eat the minutes that he does.
Erskine does a couple things well; he can paste people on the boards, and he has decent hands. What he does with those hands is another story.
I think Bruce is being harsh, pinning Poti back against the wall, after the THIRD game for Peat’s sake. What’s the f-ing point? I’d give it back a little too.
I actually think the third game is prime message-sending time. Better than when all the chips are down.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 7, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
By what age have most defensemen hit their peak in the NHL? Seems like it’s later than for a lot of other positions not just in hockey but in every sport. However, Erskine is already 29. If he can’t get it done this season then it’s probably time to cut bait. So far, so bad.
I would say prime for most defensemen is 27-32, give or take. In any event, Erskine’s right in it.
But I do think Erskine is a fine NHL player as long as he’s used as a third pairing/seventh defenseman guy who can penalty kill some. Asking him to play a top four role is putting him in a position where it’s going to be difficult for him to succeed on a regular basis.
G.O.D. mentioned earlier (and I think it’s been said elsewhere) that Erskine can be effective if his playing time is managed, and I think 18 minutes and change may have been overdoing it.
Oh, and get an avatar, or lese you don’t get into the Rink Members-only country club.
"Good crowd out there tonight, boys, let's really try to win this one."
Dude with avatar asking how to get avatar made my day.
Oh, I certainly don’t claim the idea that Erskine is effective if his playing time is managed. It’s hardly a novel idea around here the past 2 years.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 7, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I know; for the sake of laziness my brain was only going back a few hours to the last guy who said it.
"Good crowd out there tonight, boys, let's really try to win this one."
Buy low, sell high.
Don’t piss into the wind.
Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 7, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Erskine’s departure is all but a given, with the kids down on the farm (Karl and John) plowing the back 40.
Likewise Jurcina. That guy looks as addled as Erskine, completely unsettled especially when the shit hits the fan like last night (tight game, lots of PK’s, overtime).
Erskine’s under contract through ‘10-11, doubtful he’s going anywhere unless it’s part of a package.
"Good crowd out there tonight, boys, let's really try to win this one."
Erskine makes a hell of a lot of sense as your 7th defenseman getting playing time in selected moments. Certainly better in that role than Jurcina (who’s better at playing every day). I’d be sad to see them cut Erskine loose now.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 7, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Am I the only one is disturbed that one of them, whichever one, thinks he was okay. The implication there is that he was okay and the other guy wasn’t. Being a teammate, especially a defensive partner means that when one of you fails, you both do.
I sort of agree with this, although Erskine’s failures last night were so epic that I can’t totally blame Poti for being pissed about the pairing (he should still own up for his errors, though).
That’s why it’s nice that Alzner recognized what he needed (needs?) to work on.
by red army line on Oct 8, 2009 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Endemic of the season.
This is the Capitals big question this year: Can they score enough goals to make up for the goals flying in on their end? My guess is, yes, probably for 45-50 games again. But that’s against the NHL in general, not the Flyers, Pens, Rangers, or Bruins for 7 games. Neither Poti nor Erskine should be playing more than 17 mins. TOI for an NHL team, and Poti racked up 23+ mins. last night (18+ for Erskine). That kind of ice time for a guy who’s—at best—a third pairing defenseman is ludicrous.
Jurcina and Shaone Morrison got all of 16 & 17 mins. last night, respectively. Schultz (for good reason) got 15.
I won’t belabor the Varlamov point—the kid’s got talent, but his head’s scrambled. See: Carey Price (though his is scrambled for different reasons). It’s much easier to break a young goalie in with a solid D in front of him.
All that said, it’s one game. Maybe the Caps just threw up in their mouths for this one. But the question stays the same.
You’re seriously undervaluing both Schultz and Poti. Schultz is a top four guy and there’s not way Poti’s a third pairing guy. I mean, a third pairing guy, by definition, is someone outside the top 120 defensemen in the NHL and there aren’t 120 defense in the NHL better than Tom Poti.
by David Getz on Oct 7, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’ll allow the greater Japers’ community to respond to the suggestion that Schultz is a top-four guy.
As to the suggestion that Poti’s a top-4 guy, I’d take the top four from the following teams over him:
Pens (Gonchar, Orpik, Letang, Eaton)
Bruins (Chara, Wideman, Ference, Morris)
Canes (Gleason, Pitkanen, Corvo, Ward)
Habs (Hamrlik, Markov, Spacek, Mara)
Leafs (Komisarek, Kaberle, Beauchemin, Finger)
Flyers (Timonen, Pronger, Coburn, Carle)
Sabres (Rivet, Lydman, Tallender, Montador)
I’d go through more, but I don’t have the time to list them. And that’s just in the Eastern Conference.
I don’t think I’m undervaluing these guys—I’m just stating where I think that they’d be most effective right now in their careers. Regardless, you dont’ think Poti’s worth the $3.5 million he’s making, do you?
Certainly some of those are better but Jeff Finger? Steve Montador? No way.
The guy’s productive any way you slice it (check the hockeyanalytics report on defensmen contributions to team defense), and that’s the bottom line.
We can disagree about a few of the #4’s on that list. But the Caps don’t have to beat the Sabres or Leafs in the playoffs. They do have to beat the other five teams on that list. And you can’t say that Poti’s better right now than Matt Carle, Aaron Ward, or Derek Morris.
Sure you can (and swap Ference for Morris for the B’s).
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In their own end Poti is most certainly better than Carle. Keep moving them goalposts, you’ll never lose (and maybe fucking Jeff Reed will finally hit them).
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
by Rob Parker on Oct 7, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
(A zing from a Steelers fan, I’d note)
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Keep moving them goalposts, you’ll never lose
Exactly. Are we talking about top four defensemen in the NHL or top four defensemen on individual teams? Whether a guy is good enough to be a top four guy on an NHL team or whether he’s good enough to be a top four guy on every NHL team? How much value someone has or how much their have the money?
I still don’t know why Carle gets such a bad rap for his defensive play. If you look at his stats, I honestly think you’d be surprised.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 7, 2009 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe. It could be that he just happens to make terrible gaffe’s when I’m watching but I don’t think he makes particularly great defensive reads/decisions.
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
He’s got the reach to make up for them, probably. Main problem in our zone against the flyers was clearing the puck. Nobody was able to get it into the neutral zone, occasionally sending it right to a waiting flyer. Everytime I watch the caps it seems like theres a timer and if a team can keep it in the zone long enough a goal will follow…probably the same for most teams actually.
Hey sounds like why so many people dislike Jeff Schultz. Also that tall goofy bastard never hits.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
Not entirely surprising – Finger bangs.
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Morris? No way. And probably not Montador either.
Finger? C’mon, that guy is a 7th D on a good squad. And Beauchemin, you have noticed his plus/minus with Toronto lately, right?
Montador is in no way as good as Poti or Erskine.
Finally, Mark Eaton?? Dude, Dan Bylsma would buy Eaton a ticket and drive him to the airport this afternoon to swap him for Poti or Schultz.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
I’ll allow the greater Japers’ community to respond to the suggestion that Schultz is a top-four guy.
Well, since you invited it — Schultz can play with Green on the top pairing any time, as far as I’m concerned. He can handle the minutes and he can handle the play. He was very effective last year, if you believe the stats (and if you don’t, you’re in the wrong place). He’s bigger this season, and he’s rounded his game out.
If Jeff Schultz doesn’t crack a rib in the playoffs, maybe the outcome of the Caps-Penguins series is different.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 7, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with DMG that Shultzy is worth a pretty penny and Poti is reliable too. Schultz is def. top 4 this year. Caps D should be something like Green, ShaMo, Schultz, and Poti. They do make mistakes, but you can’t just focus on that. Watch all the little things they do right and you’ll see that they deserve those spots.
In case anyone was wondering what the Pens Fan’s perspective on the situation was…
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If there was one group of people on the planet who realize how good Schultz is, it ought to Pens fans.
You give them too much credit. “If he’s so good, why didn’t he play against us in the playoffs?” Zzzz…
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Maybe it’s cause I’m relatively new here and haven’t seen the analysis, but what is it that makes Schultz a top four D? He makes glaring mistakes all the time. Is it his youth? His performance on the farm?
Right, but unfortunately he’s so big we notice his every mistake.
by red army line on Oct 8, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
He’s what, five or six inches taller than the shortest D on the team? I don’t think his size magnifiies his mistakes, but rather people looking to see what they want to see and then blowing it out of proportion. Additionally, he’s not a great skater, so many of his mistakes look a bit uglier than, say, a bad Mike Green turnover in the neutral zone. I’m not sure his size really plays into it here – we notice everyone’s every mistake anyway, right?
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Like you said, his mistakes are more noticeable.
by red army line on Oct 8, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Also you don’t see him drilling people into the boards. To a casual fan that’s what they want to see, violence, particularly out of your D. I think a lot of people used to football think that if they’re a defense player they should be the ones hitting hardest. The lines are blurred a bit in hockey.
Also you don’t see him drilling people into the boards. To a casual fan that’s what they want to see, violence, particularly out of your D.
Especially a big defenseman. I firmly believe that if Schultz were 6’, 190 and put up the exact same statistics he’d be one of those guys it’d be trendy to point as someone whose contributions were subtle and unappreciated a la Boyd Gordon.
Cummon, J.P. Don’t discount what I said just because I’m wearing black and gold. You can’t seriously consider Schultz and Poti legitimate top-4 guys.
And for the record, I’d take Atlanta’s top 4 as well; Kubina, Hainsey, Enstrom and Bogosian (who I bet will be a top-pairing D-man by next year).
You think Mark Eaton is a better defenseman than Poti or Schultz. Why would I bother continuing this conversation?
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For what’s he’s there for, yes. He’s worth every dollar of the $2 mil. the Pens pay him. And he’s shot-blocking machine who rarely makes mistakes in his own end. No, he won’t score 20+ goals and have a cool website like Mike Green. But he does his job solidly without screwups for 20 mins. a night. That’s the role of #4. Don’t screw up.
Nothing. This is a rhetorical technique known as “pure fucking idiocy.” It’s subtle, but if you’re looking closely, you can learn to pick up on it.
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by J.P. on Oct 7, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Actually, it’s a subtle dig. But the point remains. #4 should log minutes and not screw up. Poti’s not as reliable as he should be for that role, and I think BB’s comment says a lot.
Subtle? I do not think this word means what you think it means.
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
Actually, it’s a subtle dig. But the point remains. #4 should log minutes and not screw up.
There’s more than one way to skin a cat; there’s more than one way to be a legitimate second pairing (or better) guy. You can be a guy who brings very little offense but who’s so defensively sound he gets minutes (like Schultz) or you can be a guy who contributes to moving the puck up the ice, is an offensive threat on the blue line and plays solid defense (like Tom Poti).
you can be a guy who contributes to moving the puck up the ice, is an offensive threat on the blue line and plays solid defense (like Tom Poti).
We’ll just agree to disagree whether Poti really has these qualities. With all the firepower on this team, Poti had a grand total of 13 pts in 52 games last year. That’s only four more than Eaton in 68 games, who almost never got PP time.
Offensive contribution isn’t necessarily points.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 7, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Just for fun, stats on Eaton, 55, and 3 from last year.
Eaton:
TGF: 39
TGA: 58
+/-: 3
AVG TOI: 17:46
4G – 5A
Poti:
TGF: 49
TGA: 69
+/-: 3
AVG TOI: 21:09
3G – 10A
Schultz:
TGF: 56
TGA: 67
+/-: 13
AVG TOI: 19:46
1G – 11A
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
So, Poti had 44% more points in 24% fewer games and that’s not really a significant difference?
Plus Poti only played 1:26/game on the powerplay, good for 129th in the NHL, almost all on the second powerplay unit. It’s not like he had a ton of chances to pad his stats.
Plus even though Eaton had a nice year for himself last year he has 20 points in 210 post lockout games. Poti’s had 110 points in 277 post lockout games.
Plus even though Eaton had a nice year for himself last year he has 20 points in 210 post lockout games. Poti’s had 110 points in 277 post lockout games.
Let me start by; Poti > Eaton, no question. Poti’s better with the puck, better skater and a better passer, better shot. I think Eaton would tell you that.
But you can’t bring up points to measure the worth of Mark Eaton.
Eaton had 148 blocked shots last season, more than any Capital. Defensively is where he earns his keep, whereas a guy like Poti is more balanced and can do more, I think it’s fair to say Eaton is better at what he does best (get in the way of shots, positional defense as a whole).
Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*
*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night
That’s all fine and well but this is in the context of a “top 4” debate in which Eaton was asserted to be a better option as a top 4 than Poti. No doubt Eaton does a lot of the little things well in his own zone, but that’s the kind of compliment you give to a bottom pair guy.
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
Fair enough, just saying we know scoring points isn’t the reason Eaton’s in the league, so no bother really mentioning it.
I don’t see Eaton as a pure Top 4 defenseman, he just happens to take a second shift. Really the Goligoski-McKee pairing’s been just as effective and is virtually the same.
In the scheme of things (system he plays in, his partner is a budding talent, the other guys he has in front of him, etc) it works. If Eaton wasn’t good at all, it wouldn’t (i.e. not just any defensemen in the league can do what he does).
Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*
*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night
Welcome to the discussion Hooks. It’s good to see the voice of reason.
Wait, did I just say that?
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 7, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t confuse shot blocking for what someone is worth to each individual team. Pittsburgh is a shot blocking team. It’s what they are told to do so MAF doesn’t get punctured into pieces of cheese.
On the other hand, the Capitals are not a team that blocks a lot of shots. That’s why we get all happy with QL or Brooks Laich go into a nija like breakdance routine.
It reminds me of a good article from not to long ago
Busting an NHL myth: ‘The best teams block the most shots’
Good teams that don’t shot block (.600+ points percentage): Detroit, Calgary, Anaheim, NY Rangers, San Jose, Washington
Good teams that shot block: Montreal, Pittsburgh
So who is to say that if you moved Eaton to Washington that he wouldn’t block anything and if you moved Schultz to Pittsburgh he would be the king of shot blocking?
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
Don’t confuse shot blocking for what someone is worth to each individual team. Pittsburgh is a shot blocking team. It’s what they are told to do so MAF doesn’t get punctured into pieces of cheese.
Not sure I agree. I think the fact that Pittsburgh blocked a lot of shots last season was a product of who personnel (Scuderi, Eaton, Orpik, Gill). A bunch of rugged defensive defensemen. Put that personnel on any team and they block a lot of shots.
So who is to say that if you moved Eaton to Washington that he wouldn’t block anything and if you moved Schultz to Pittsburgh he would be the king of shot blocking?
If you moved Ovechkin to Pittsburgh would he not score goals? If you moved Crosby to Washington would he not put up points? (OK, head spinning example).
Point is, guys are who they are and do what they do. IMO Eaton is an above-average shot blocker on any team in the league, it’s a mentality and he has it.
Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*
*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night
I think we’re agreeing just in different ways.
We both think that the Pens and Caps dcorps are valued for what they are bringing to the table for their respective teams.
I just might be a bit more biased in thinking it’s a product of the system and depending on what team you’re on some skill are irrespective to the team needs.
/I feel like department of redundancy department in how I’m conveying thoughts lately.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
I agree with that wholeheartedly, I was just trying to point out that the gulf in terms of offensive production and skill is much larger than docciavelli was suggesting and that it’s not insignificant.
That’s valid, it does point to what makes Poti a better overall player. Still think, schematically, Eaton is a good fit in Pittsburgh for what he brings to the table, even if he’s not a stand alone patented “top 4” guy.
Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*
*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night
Fair point, and I think it’s an example of why I hate trying to slot defensemen as “top pair”, “top four”, and so on – there are so many different dimensions to what a defenseman is asked to do and ordering the depth chart can go a dozen different way depending on what weight you attach to each value.
Agreed.
And really the original commenter could have used Goligoski/McKee as the Penguins second pairing (TOI data thrown off due to McKee getting a misconduct in the small sample size).
After the first pair, there’s not much difference in Pittsburgh between the 2nd and 3rd unit. They’re basically mirror images of each other.
Which I think underscores what you were getting at, Top 4 doesn’t mean much, it’s the 6 guy unit that dresses and how they work together that really matters.
Pensburgh.com -- it's like the Max Talbot of blogs*
*not just because we only work for 12 minutes a night
Poti didn’t rack up much PP time either. AO and Green played almost the full 2 on the point every PP. And like Steckel Me Elmo said, you can contribute offensively without getting a point (good breakout pass).
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
Poti’s also not my first choice for PP point duty if Pothier’s healthy.
I'm so sick and tired of the refs explaining the calls like this is the NFL.
Remember that whole deal you wrote out the other day about people constantly changing the criteria of the argument?
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
don’t be mocking greenlife. you’d jizz in your pants to have him.
Russian Machine Never Breaks
by macvechkin on Oct 7, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure, as our #4.
Seriously though, Green’s a really good player. That’s not the point of the conversation though.
Yeah, your number 4. You are such a joke right now. Green is on the top pair of all but maybe 3 teams in the league, and none of them are PIT.
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
What he’s there for is to NOT BE A TOP 4 D! And salary is not the issue, you didn’t start with that; you started with “Poti is not a top 4 D.” Well guess what? Tom Poti by definition is a top 4D on one of the best teams in the league.
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
I’ll give you this, though, Doc – you’re not the type to go running back crying to PensBurgh about how you were a perfect gentleman over here and we sent you packing because we didn’t want to hear the truth.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Indeed. I don’t mind getting the pulse of Caps fans who actually follow the team (as opposed to many of those I run into occasionally around the Metro area). I’m surprised to see all the Schultz love after the comments here last year…
Then you obviously didn’t closely follow the comments here last year. We’re a bastion of Schultz love, a commune of Sarge support, a kibbutz of… well, most of us around here appreciate him in a way that is rare among Caps fans.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Though it seems if you look almost anywhere else Caps fans post en masse, you will find nothing but venom for the gentle giant.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 7, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately non-fans probably don’t realize that.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Oct 7, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Endemic of the season.
This is the Capitals big question this year: Can they score enough goals to make up for the goals flying in on their end? My guess is, yes, probably for 45-50 games again. But that’s against the NHL in general, not the Flyers, Pens, Rangers, or Bruins for 7 games. Neither Poti nor Erskine should be playing more than 17 mins. TOI for an NHL team, and Poti racked up 23+ mins. last night (18+ for Erskine). That kind of ice time for a guy who’s—at best—a third pairing defenseman is ludicrous.Jurcina and Shaone Morrison got all of 16 & 17 mins. last night, respectively. Schultz (for good reason) got 15.
I won’t belabor the Varlamov point—the kid’s got talent, but his head’s scrambled. See: Carey Price (though his is scrambled for different reasons). It’s much easier to break a young goalie in with a solid D in front of him.
All that said, it’s one game. Maybe the Caps just threw up in their mouths for this one. But the question stays the same.
1. At the risk of being elitist, I don’t think “endemic” is the word you want here, but I’m not sure what you’re trying to say so I hesitate to offer a replacement.
2. The question for all teams is whether they can score more than they let in, no?
3. Poti and Schultz are legit top-4 guys. I see there are plenty of comments on this point already, so I’m going to forego amplifying on this.
4. The Caps are way better than the Rangers, and they dominated the Bruins the other night. The gave up 6 goals last night – two real soft ones, two more that probably should have been stopped, and 2 more that anyone gets scored on. Your Pens required 7 games, including a couple OT wins, to put the Caps away last year. I’d say it’s not like the Pens have a hammerlock on anything at this point.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
by fat_daddyo on Oct 7, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
1. Endemic = “characteristic of.” That’s what I was going for. Frankly, I think I could be called elitist for using the term, myself.
2. The phrase I used was “goals flying in.” That’s different than “let in.” If the Caps only “let in” about 2.8 goals a night, they win the Eastern Conference. I don’t know whether that’ll happen.
3. You’re right, it’s addressed elsewhere.
4. Not comparing the Caps to the Pens at all in my original comment. I’m comparing them to the top 10-12 teams in the league. It’s not only the Pens the Caps have to worry about. Though from my perspective, the Pens should be #1 on that list.
you didn’t use “endemic” in a way that would be called elitist. You used it in a way that says “I don’t really know what this word means, but it sounds important and so it will make me sound smart!”
Try picking apart my point, rather than nit-picking my usage of the English language. Which, by the way, I correctly used.
But while we’re at it, how can the use of the word “endemic” get so far up inside people’s rectums? Jesus…
why bother picking apart your point when you just move the goalposts to suit your needs? I would be one thing to engage in some actual discussion, but arguing with you is like arguing with a dining room table.
If you routinely argue with dining room tables, I can see why you believe that’s what this is. Thanks for adding to the conversation.
thanks for missing the reference. Its been fun.
by RedBirdie on Oct 7, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
4. Not comparing the Caps to the Pens at all in my original comment. I’m comparing them to the top 10-12 teams in the league. It’s not only the Pens the Caps have to worry about. Though from my perspective, the Pens should be #1 on that list.
Let’s stick with the Eastern Conference. If things go relatively according to the chalk, the Pens, Caps, Flyers and Bruins will finish Top 4 in some order. We can reasonably expect the Caps to face at least one, maybe two of those teams to get to the Cup Finals.
Leaving aside the goal scoring side of the equation, let’s take a look at preventing goals. Do you honestly think the Caps D as currently constituted is going to cough up 6 goals a night against those other three teams? I don’t.
The Caps are in a bit of a cap pickle, and they’re playing Jurcina and Morrison every night; we theorize it’s to showcase them for a trade. Those guys are probably their least skilled D. The coach tryed putting their most physical defender in a Top-4 role against a physical team. It didn’t work.
We have plenty of reasonable expectation that this situation will be rectified sooner rather than later.
Finally, the Pens needed a shootout to put away the Islanders, for crying out loud – does that mean the Pens are suddenly a candidate for a lottery pick?
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
Agreed with most of your post. Pens/Caps/Flyers/Bruins will all be in the postseason. Caps won’t give up 6 a night—see my earlier comment that the Caps win the East if they keep it to 2.8.
One of the Hershey kids will be in DC before you know it, taking Morrison/Jurchina ice time. If McPhee can deal them, more power to him.
I don’t bring up lottery picks around here anymore. It sets off all kinds of conspiracy theories (and you know what I mean, JP).
Well, 2.8 might be a tall order. I will agree with you that defense and goaltending are the big questions for the Caps; I’ll add that this is partly a reflection of the fact that the Caps have precisely zero questions when it comes to scoring. They’re going to to a lot of that.
I don’t think the Caps have the cap room to bring up Alzner without moving either Nylander, Jurcina or Morrisonn. Carlson is not ready for the NHL yet, imo.
If you had switched “Erskine” for “Poti” in your original post, I would have agreed with you.
But definitely not about Schultz – see is +/-, his GA/60 and his defensive contribution numbers.
And also not Poti. Whether his brand of D will work in a 7-game series against an elite team, we’ll just have to wait and see.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
Alzner also might not come up if the Caps land someone at the deadline. Sloan is what half Alzners salary? Sloan was the better Dman at training camp, and while I hope he is not by the deadline, if we move Nyls and bring someone in then Alzner might not fit in the cap, unless we have extra room. That cap can be a damn killer.
Reply to Docciavelli
Sad to say that I missed this discussion, but hopefully a few folks are still on here…
I don’t agree entirely with what Docciavelli’s saying here (and no, you didn’t use endemic properly). However, I think our collective response displays a bit of group-think and willful blindness on our parts. (By the way, I’m not targeting anyone in particular, and I include myself, hence the use of “we.”) Poti and Schultz may well be “top-four” defensemen, and they both may be more effective than many observers perceive them to be. Still, the fact remains that the Caps were 19th in Goals Against last year, and they’re not off to a great start this year. During the playoffs last year, our defense had difficulty starting the breakout and defending the area around the goal-crease, particularly against the Penguins.
When uninformed observers make ignorant comments about the Caps’ defense, we’re right to point them out. Some particular examples include: “Green can’t play defense.” “Schultz is useless if he doesn’t hit anyone.” “Poti doesn’t score much for an offensive defenseman,” etc. etc.
That being said, numerous intelligent and informed observers have pointed out that defense and goaltending are the Caps’ primary weaknesses, and not without reason. Partly, this is because the offense is so good, but it’s also partly because our defensive corps 1-6 is objectively somewhat underwhelming. I think we run the risk of spending so much time savaging uninformed comments that we become blind to our defense’s obvious limitations. We’re beginning to miss the forest for the trees.
Docciavelli probably could have phrased it better, but if he had simply said that the Caps have some defensemen playing in roles that do not suit their talents (Erskine), I think he would have been perfectly correct. If he had put it that way, maybe we don’t respond in the fashion that we do. Still, I think perhaps we’re beginning to adhere to certain ideas – “Schultz is a good defensive-defenseman” – to the point that they become dogmatic and blind us to the fact that, despite the defensive contributions of Schultz, Green and Poti, the Caps’ play in their own end leaves much to be desired.
I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe
Looking at the Boston game and 2/3 of the Toronto game as compared to the Philly game, I think a better adjective for the defense is schizophrenic. I know I can’t say that with any certainty through three games, but clearly they are capable of making fools out of those who say we have no defense. Are we going to be playing the guessing game of which defense shows up at any given game? One thing I think we can be certain of — that particular combo of d-men isn’t going to show up again, unless everyone else is sick or hurt.
the whole damn team is schizophrenic. And its never one or two guys on a given night. Its like they put something in the water over at Kettler, and they’re either all on or all off. Its kind of strange.
I don’t know. I’d have to say last night looked like one or two guys (#3 & #4). Maybe some others like # 40, to me we wasted a supreme effort by many of our players. 3rd game of the season…meh. Call me back in March.
by mechanicsville on Oct 7, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Personally, I don’t think BB should be revealing anything to the media about anything from any conversation with any player at any time. But that’s just me.
Also, after only three games into the season, I’ve been thinking BB’s job is in danger if the Caps don’t at least win the Eastern Conference in the playoffs this year.
But Brawndo's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes.
I thought that was a bit frank, myself, especially at this point in the season.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
Frank and increasingly uncommon, though the last part may require some digging on my part.
"Good crowd out there tonight, boys, let's really try to win this one."
I think WSH is going to have a hard time keeping this crew together, salary-cap-wise.
But Brawndo's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes.
Theo is gone next year, and they’ll do something with Nyls, even if its just stash him in Hershey. That’s 9.something million right there.
Pothier’s a UFA. I could see him coming back, but I suspect he wouldn’t be paid as much as he’s being paid now.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 7, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
could see him coming back, too. But I assuming that the two I mention absolutely will not be costing the Caps money next season; I’m very much less sure about the other guys whose contracts are up at the end of the season.
Not to go too off-topic, but we got just what we wanted out of Pittsburgh tonight. A solid effort from Johnny and a Pens loss.
by mechanicsville on Oct 7, 2009 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions
this one from BB comes to mind, but no names given obviously:
“They want to do so well that they’re afraid of making a mistake. One of the players said the other day they were just so nervous in the game. I mean, if they’re nervous now, what’s going to happen when they’re in the third or fourth [playoff] round?”
and he kind of went back and forth in last season’s playoffs, at one point calling out mike green, and at other points defending him as sick/injured. links evade me.
On our defense. Green didn’t score last night but he was fine on defense. He did seem to miss a few passes on the Power Play. (Of course, I’m probably spoiled due to last year’s productivity.
Aside from Green, our Defensemen are relatively cheap. While we’re paying mega bucks for our forwards. (Ovy, Nylander, Semin, Backstrom; etc.)
I assume that by next year, we’ll clear more space for our D prospects, Alzner and Carlson. Pothier will probably be allowed to walk. Poti is probably our most tradable asset. (on D)
Green got open in the slot once or twice. His tracking radar still ain’t right. He’ll start putting them in sometime, and then he’ll do it in bunches.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 7, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Stick issue
There has been some scuttlebutt that he can’t get a stick that he likes. Could explain why his shots are off target and why he hasn’t handled the few back-door passes that he’s received on the PP. Still, it’s a poor carpenter who blames his tools.
I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe
And it’s something he should have been able to address over the summer. (Yes, I know he was still rehabbing, but he had at least the month of September.)
Green’s kinda overly emotional and headcase-y. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to find out he’s let this stick thing really get to him.
It seemed like his shot was just off by a few inches here and there. This early in the season, I’m willing to be the offense will come along.
Yup. He’s streaky.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 7, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
D’ohboy, honestly, I know neither of us could ever claim to have anything close to the talent that Mike Green has, but how long has it ever taken you to get used to a new stick? Does him being so much better than us make you think it should take longer to adjust, or less time to adjust?
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
I'm such a hack that it really doesn't matter
Being only slightly facetious. Still, it messes us up for a game or three and then we adjust. However, I think that the margins he’s working at are much, much smaller than ours. He’s got tiny little spaces to shoot at, so the difference of a centimeter here or there can cost him goals.
Anyhow, if one of the best players in the league can’t get his stick sponsor (Easton) to make him a new stick to his specs, I humbly suggest that he changes companies. Might I suggest Northlands? ;)
I'm trying to work out a deal with a club in Europe
Haha. I understand the small margins argument, but I personally feel that the immense talent should be able to overcome that.
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
Think how many times he gets to shoot the puck in practice, etc. It really shouldn’t take him more than a half of a practice or so to get used to a new stick. I think it’s more that he hasn’t found one he wants to keep and that he can play as comfortably with.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
Boo hoo. I’ve had stick lines cancelled on me before and I wasn’t being paid 5+ mill. to figure out how to get over it. Being extremely generous and sensitive to his small margins for error I can’t imagine that he couldn’t get used to and comfortable with a new stick in training camp. A couple weeks seems more than sufficient.
If you're after gettin' the honey, then you don't go killin' all them bees.
We aren’t paying mega-bucks for Backstrom until he gets a new contract. He is making 2.4 mil after bonuses i think. and Poti ain’t so cheap at 3.5mil. Only about 1 mil away from Nyls and Semin.
As for next year, 2 of Mo, Juice, and Pothier (if all are still here) will prob walk, along with JT60. Backstrom and Semin are due for a raise that will cost an additional 7 mil (saying they both sign 7 mil contracts), so space will be made for our Young Guns before Carlson. Its gonna be a big squeeze with the cap going down 10%, but hopefully GMGM can work his magic.
It’s super early, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see JT60 here one more year.
by DrinkingPartner on Oct 7, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Hahahahahahahaha, what a great quote.
I’ve missed you guys. And I still hate Poti. Hopefully more of you do now too.
See y’all tomorrow!
I have a blog too! www.scottyhockey.com
Let's Go Rangers!
Nah, just gonna hang around here from work.
May come down later this season though – if so I definitely wanna grab some beers …
I have a blog too! www.scottyhockey.com
Let's Go Rangers!
by Scotty Hockey on Oct 8, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Did you hear about the Pens game? They lost to the ’Yotes 3-0. No offense to speak of, for the Pens. There were 10 (yes you read this right) minor penalties called on the Pens. Yes, they even topped our total against Philthy. Of the ’Yotes goals, 2 were power play goals, the last was an empty netter.
And the non-’netters were on Brent Johnson. :(
The Pensburgh live blog of the game looked a lot like ours last night, especially regarding the penalty calls.
IS PAЯTY NOW
A team ends up taking a lot of minor penalties when they are not moving their feet. the Penguins were standing around all night. And Crosby never looked right; he had what for him was an especially grim night.
It happens.
The Caps will have a few of these this year, too.
If you've read this far...seek help.
They made the Yotes D look amazing.
BJ1 had some really nice saves though. I watched the whole thing hoping for a 1 – 0 loss. Couldn’t have been happier with the end result.
C-Bo on one of his first shifts just face planted for no reason. He got up and skated directly to the bench. He almost got some good chances from Malkin.
One guy just drove his semi as a float. I guess semis are cool.
Sid’s playing hurt. He’s been dealing with a wonky groin for at least a month or so now.
IS PAЯTY NOW
I really hope that his groin doesn’t end up being an achilles heel for him. If his career ends up with X games missed every year because he reaggravates some groin injury I’ll be really disappointed.
Agreed. He’s a special talent – let’s see it as often and at as high a level as possible.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 8, 2009 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
There was a another coach who called his players out a LOT in the paper...
and he flamed out. Michel Therrien used to kill players in the press. In a way, he was similar to Boudreau: came up through the farm, favored his AHL proteges, and was blessed with awe inspiring offensive talent .
And when the shit hit the fan, he could no longer go to the whip.
You know, the Nazis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews wear…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 8, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Pre Lt. Aldo Rey I’d guess (both damn good flicks).
"Good crowd out there tonight, boys, let's really try to win this one."
by Bald Pollack on Oct 8, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Florida
|
53 | 25 | 17 | 11 | 61 |
|
Washington
|
54 | 28 | 21 | 5 | 61 |
|
Winnipeg
|
56 | 26 | 24 | 6 | 58 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
53 | 23 | 24 | 6 | 52 |
|
Carolina
|
55 | 20 | 25 | 10 | 50 |
(updated 2.10.2012 at 9:27 AM EST)
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