Time to Walk the Walk on Team Toughness
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 2:30 PM EDT
319 comments
"We like what we have now, and if we need that element, we'll go get it." - Capitals General Manager George McPhee on not having an enforcer
At 13:17 of the second period in the tenth game of the season, it became apparent that the Caps may indeed need "that element."
As Mike Green lay on the ice after taking a knee-on-knee hit from the Islanders' Nate Thompson, the Norris finalist's teammates did, well, pretty much nothing. All of the talk of "team toughness" in the off-season seemed to vanish in an instant.
Oh, to be sure, the Caps are a tougher team this year than they were a season ago (and they unquestionably had a brand of toughness even then). They have more players who will go to the net (or whose willingness to do so has inspired teammates to follow suit), they're winning battles along the boards, taking hits to make plays, blocking shots and generally doing the things that define certain aspects of toughness in a sport that puts a premium on it.
But there's more to toughness in hockey, however. There is an element that keeps your star players from being run without fear of retribution. It's a form of presentation and engagement that commands respect in all areas of the ice, including the goaltender's crease. It is, simply put, a deterrent, and it's something that the Caps plainly lack at present.
That the Caps aren't physically intimidating opponents is no surprise. George McPhee acknowledged this would be the case this past offseason when he said, "If people want to screw around, then you beat them up on your power play" - the Caps skill, theoretically, is their deterrent. The problem with that approach (putting aside the obvious issues the Caps are currently having with the extra man) is that it's only effective if the officials make the right calls... and if your skill players get up after they've been fouled. And Mike Green almost didn't on Saturday night.
We noted earlier in the season (against tonight's opponent, no less) how Green in particular has gotten seemingly rattled when physically targeted during a game, and his style of play makes him particularly vulnerable to such tactics. But that in and of itself isn't a problem - its that his teammates have done little to discourage teams getting tough with the young defenseman or some of its other high-priced assets that becomes worrisome. For decades, one of the keys to winning hockey has been preventing the opponent from taking your best players off the ice - it's one of the reasons the sport allows pugilism in the first place.
So what's the answer for this Capitals team? For one, they need to prove that they really are a team on which, as John Erskine put it, "everyone sticks up for their teammate." And if it costs the team a power play or two points in the standings or even a suspension for a player instigating a fight to send a message, chances are that message will be worth it... because the cost of inaction can be crippling. (As an interesting sidenote, the Caps have taken just one instigator penalty since Boudreau took over behind the bench - Chris Clark, against the Flyers (natch), in Gabby's very first game.)
Watch tonight's game against the big bad Flyers. Pay attention to the level of respect with which the Orange and Black treat the Caps' skill players. And take note of how the host Capitals, as a team, react. You can bet George McPhee will be.
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“Pay attention to the level of respect with which the Orange and Black treat the Caps’ skill players.”
How about the White and Black?
by MisterBungle on Oct 27, 2009 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If the Caps are relying on the refs to protect them…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That made me laugh. Nice.
"I think the relentless negative coverage in The Washington Post is a real difference from previous years," Redskins general counsel David Donovan said. "But in terms of the way our actual fans are behaving, we don't see any difference."
by Sct112 on Oct 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
YEAH! That Colin Cambell is a… (what’s the word I’m looking for here?)
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 27, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pushover?
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was think… “joke”. [note to self: Self referential humor doesn’t go over well on a public blog.]
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 27, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just wish they’d more consistently send warnings to the Flyers about their (usually) overtly dirty play.
by MisterBungle on Oct 27, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They tried a couple years ago when Flyers were getting suspended left, right and center early in the year for boarding and hitting from behind. Doesn’t seem to have worked.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As the Flyers spend the equivalent of just over 3 power play opportunities per game than the Caps, both sticking up for one another and beating a team up on the power play would be nice to see.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Oct 27, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point on the Refs…
For our system to work vs teams like the Flyers, the refs have to be able to call a double minor or even a major if something is done that seems excessive…
I for one would hope that a two handed wack on a Green, Semin, Ovie is going to put you in the box more then 2, and put the game in jeopardy for the goon.
by SA-Town on Oct 27, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m just not convinced.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Of?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That we need an enforcer.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Team toughness does not equal enforcer. Sticking up for one’’s teammates does not equal enforcer.
On a team that is as this team is supposed to be, there is no excuse for someone like Green to go down like he did with no reaction from his teammates that were on the ice.
by Yoshietree on Oct 27, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Damnit!
On a team that is as CLOSE as this team is supposed to be
by Yoshietree on Oct 27, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I’m not convinced that the Caps need an enforcer either. But they need to be willing to demonstrate a bit more collective intestinal fortitude OR find a way to bring that element in from outside. And, for my money, I prefer the “what the hell is that lunatic going to do next” brand of deterrent over a heavyweight sideshow enforcer any day.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I wouldn’t have made the deal the Flyers made for him, but Daniel Carcillo might have fit that mold.
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 27, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep. Carcillo. Ott. Etc.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Avery? ;)
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The name crossed my mind.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m lovin’ me some Rick Rypien these days. That guy is a beast.
by Cluster on Oct 27, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This thread makes me miss Dale Hunter
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 27, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dale Hunter still contributes. I have to think that Carlson’s meteoric rise in the OHL is at least part of Hunter’s doing.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. He’s insane.
When Hell freezes over, I'll play hockey there, too.
by Steck It Out on Oct 27, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and restraint, but a good player
by ns on Oct 27, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
post fail
translation:
too many penalties.
no restraint.
good player, nonetheless.
by ns on Oct 27, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that just misses being a haiku. ;)
by S h a g g y on Oct 27, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is Chris Simon, who everyone chased out of the league.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know what about Thompson’s hit on Green would have changed had the Caps been throwing punches in the first 9 games of the year for all of the liberties taken with the young Guns. Thompson was a guy who made a bad play because he was obviously beat and didn’t have another choice and it just so happened it ended up knee on knee with Greener. (The same thing that happened with Ovie on Gonchar in the playoffs last year).
If he had dropped the gloves the only thing that would have changed is that Knuble would have become even more of a leader in the room.
Honestly, I don’t see anyone in the NHL shying away from giving a hit or a play because they might get run later. What I would like to see if a bit of retribution. You hit our guy, we hit yours. You run our goalie, we run yours. That is the stuff that actually will change the way teams approach the Caps.
"I think the relentless negative coverage in The Washington Post is a real difference from previous years," Redskins general counsel David Donovan said. "But in terms of the way our actual fans are behaving, we don't see any difference."
by Sct112 on Oct 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get what you’re saying, but I think you’re being too specific regarding cause-and-effect (or effect-and-cause)…..
by TylerG on Oct 27, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we need a Jean-Francois Jacques-type huge young banger that can fight and put guys through the glass as well as contribute with points. I don’t think we have that kind of player in the system, though. A goon like Cote isn’t going to help the team much.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we need a Jean-Francois Jacques-type huge young banger that can fight and put guys through the glass as well as contribute with points.
The Caps and every other team in the NHL. Those guys are few and far between, which is why we need some response from the guys already wearing the uniform.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that’s why Nylander for Byfuglien (and Sopel)… sigh…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
God damn it. I remarked that we would be SOO much better with those guys last night as I watched the Hawks game.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would like to have Iginla as well…
"I think the relentless negative coverage in The Washington Post is a real difference from previous years," Redskins general counsel David Donovan said. "But in terms of the way our actual fans are behaving, we don't see any difference."
by Sct112 on Oct 27, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Checkity check yourself before you rec yourself.
Awesome article. Couldn’t agree more.
by Cluster on Oct 27, 2009 2:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is substantially what tonight’s game is about. PHL will run 52 and they will run Theo. What will WSH do about it? I suspect…. not much.
I’m not a guy who’s big on having old enforcers around, especially when the last one cashed his check and didn’t do his job. (And then got another job paying even more money! Doh!) But at some point a GM has to do something to protect his investment in his stars. And that point is coming fast here.
by TylerG on Oct 27, 2009 2:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Its more of a vanity thing for me...
In terms of needing team toughness. Its extremely hard to root for a “soft” team, or one that gets that rep (see Senators, Ottawa).
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 27, 2009 2:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think a team led by Alex Ovechkin can easily be dismissed as soft.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think we have a “soft” team, but its really tough to see one of your guys get taken out, and no one does anything. Look how many guys from St. Louis jumped Ott after he tried to take out Coliacovo and Crombeen.
Ron and Fez 11 to 3
by YvonLabresMoustache on Oct 27, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, by contrast, this (really worth checking out, btw).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gah. That’s what I was alluding to down lower in the post. Comment, read, think.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at how many people jumped Backes after he crosschecked Semin last year. I’m standing by my opinion that the guys thought they would get in trouble if they went after the donk and lost the powerplay opportunity.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you think it’s coaching, eh?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Think about what the main storyline was a couple games before that Isles game. PENALTIES. Dumb ones. Don’t take them. That’s all that happened on that play. Guys heard about it from Bruce for a week and didn’t want to blow a chance to claw back into that game.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then they’re either hearing the wrong thing or being sent a bad message. Anyone think Bruce would be pissed at a guy standing up for his teammate?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really see Thompson’s penalty as him taking a run at Green?
"I think the relentless negative coverage in The Washington Post is a real difference from previous years," Redskins general counsel David Donovan said. "But in terms of the way our actual fans are behaving, we don't see any difference."
by Sct112 on Oct 27, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see Thompson’s penalty as him not respecting his opponent.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Does Ovie not respect Gonchar?
"I think the relentless negative coverage in The Washington Post is a real difference from previous years," Redskins general counsel David Donovan said. "But in terms of the way our actual fans are behaving, we don't see any difference."
by Sct112 on Oct 27, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d say that, at times, Ovie plays on the very edge and perhaps over it. In that instance, I think he was a bit reckless.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you, and the fact is, Ovie wouldn’t change his ways for anything. That is true of most of the guys in the NHL.
If the Islanders are my team, and Thompson pulls out of that hit because he’s afraid he’s going to get punched if something goes wrong, he’s getting a bus ticket off Long Island faster than he can get his gloves off.
I’m fine with someone dropping the gloves for Thompson’s hit, but that is more about the Caps perception of eachother than it is about other team’s perception of them.
If you’re looking for toughness (which the Caps could use), its about forechecking, and grinding, taking a hit and getting up unphased.. being difficult to play against rather than responding to liberties taken against the big guns.
"I think the relentless negative coverage in The Washington Post is a real difference from previous years," Redskins general counsel David Donovan said. "But in terms of the way our actual fans are behaving, we don't see any difference."
by Sct112 on Oct 27, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you’re looking for toughness (which the Caps could use), its about forechecking, and grinding, taking a hit and getting up unphased.. being difficult to play against rather than responding to liberties taken against the big guns.
I disagree. While I think those are all components of toughness (as I mention in the post), I find it undeniable that physical intimidation and deterring others from taking advantage of your skill players is also a part of toughness.
As far as it being “more about the Caps perception of eachother than it is about other team’s perception of them,” I’m fine with that, too, in that when each players knows that every one of their teammates has his back and is willing to give or take a beating for him, he tends to act the same way and, before long, you have team toughness. I don’t think it can be marginalized.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
every one of their teammates has his back and is willing to give or take a beating for him, he tends to act the same way and, before long, you have team toughness.
I can’t help but think that the wide range of nationalities on the Caps hurts this is some way. But at the same time, from this fan’s perspective, this team seems real tight together, which only makes me more frustrated when I don’t see it translate into team toughness.
by Cluster on Oct 27, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do realize that all NHL teams have many nationalities on their rosters, so maybe they have the same problem. Just doesn’t feel that way.
by Cluster on Oct 27, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think nationality has anything to do with it at all.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, not buying that. This is a tight-knit bunch.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Though maybe the Caps have too many guys who had a stable, healthy upbringing and are men of sound mind, and therefore don’t bring a whole wellspring of anger into their adult lives to unleash on their opponents at any hint of a legitimate excuse.
Kidding, sorta.
by Stephen Pepper on Oct 27, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
damn those stable, healthy upbringings!
by RedBirdie on Oct 27, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On a related note, Mike Wise has gone back to writing about football. He said “there are no interesting stories here anymore since Brashear left”
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 27, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He could go on with a couple of hundred column inches on the underachieving, non-difference making Gilbert Arenas
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Oct 27, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fine, football can keep him. its Svrluga that I really want.
by RedBirdie on Oct 27, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually had a coach tell my whole team that the blue collar kids were going to be better than the white collar kids for basically this reason.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better? No. Tougher? Maybe. Spoiled people are rarely tough.
by Cluster on Oct 27, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
deterring others from taking advantage of your skill players
This is the key point that I think we disagree on. I don’t see Clark or Knuble dropping the gloves deterring Thompson or Avery or Carcillo from taking shots at Green or Semin.
"I think the relentless negative coverage in The Washington Post is a real difference from previous years," Redskins general counsel David Donovan said. "But in terms of the way our actual fans are behaving, we don't see any difference."
by Sct112 on Oct 27, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure we disagree on that point. I think that sticking up for your guys is part of it. But I think another part of it is knowing that if you take a run at our guys, your skill guys had better keep their heads up as well, and that becomes the deterrent.
When a skill guy (think Gaborik or Briere or whomever) sees a teammate take a run at an opponent and thinks to himself, “Thanks, now I’ve got the target on me,” things are working. The game doesn’t have to get to that, but that threat can keep things in line.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
your skill guys had better keep their heads up as well
So yeah, maybe we aren’t disagreeing… this is absolutely agree with. The only way I see Thompson’s game changing is if he fears for Okposo or Tavares, not himself.
"I think the relentless negative coverage in The Washington Post is a real difference from previous years," Redskins general counsel David Donovan said. "But in terms of the way our actual fans are behaving, we don't see any difference."
by Sct112 on Oct 27, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, and he fears for Okposo or Tavares if the Caps have the reputation as a team that makes opopnents pay, physically, not just on the PP. Wheee!
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I do. I see it absolutely as him taking a run at 52. Teams have done that all year, notably PHL and NYR. And it’s worked. He got turtle-y in both those games.
by TylerG on Oct 27, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t understand that. If it was him getting hammered in the boards while trying to dig a puck out, fine. But this play was Thompson getting beat and taking a penalty because he isn’t good enough to fix it without taking one.
"I think the relentless negative coverage in The Washington Post is a real difference from previous years," Redskins general counsel David Donovan said. "But in terms of the way our actual fans are behaving, we don't see any difference."
by Sct112 on Oct 27, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right. You see it happen in all levels of hockey.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Green wasn’t great in the PHI or NYR games but he started the season slow. I’m not ready to jump to the conclusion that Green is soft (except around the waste, bwahaha). In the playoff series against PHI Green was arguably the best player all series for the Caps and he was definitely a target the whole time.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Greenie needs fiber?
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did respond just a little bit after the knee on knee…
"I think the relentless negative coverage in The Washington Post is a real difference from previous years," Redskins general counsel David Donovan said. "But in terms of the way our actual fans are behaving, we don't see any difference."
by Sct112 on Oct 27, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, but if I’m a Cap, I’m not going to take the chance of getting taken off the first line or off the first PP unit like Semin was during the bad penalty run. And I don’t think it was a run at Green. I think it was a shitty guy getting beat and sticking out his leg because it’s all he could do.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think shitty guys who get beat think twice before chucking the leg out if they know they’re gonna be fed their lunch.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We’re not going to change each other’s minds. I see validity in your point of view, but I still think the guys just didn’t want to give up on the game yet by taking that instigator.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why? They’d given up on the previous 33 minutes.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
hahaha, just stop.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
And it’s a stupid regular season game that they already taking seriously. They clearly didn’t care much about the game so why start caring when it’s time to get dirty?
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
already were not taking seriously
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read somewhere that the regular season means Richard or something…
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A wise scribe, no doubt.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoever he was, he was spot on.
IS PAЯTY NOW
by Your Nation's Capital on Oct 27, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The key word here is “dumb”. Taking a penalty while standing up for a teammate is not dumb, even if it negates a powerplay.
by Cluster on Oct 27, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at how many people jumped Backes after he crosschecked Semin last year
That was a lame team response as well from the Caps. Not only did Backes get away with one (no penalty), but according to the box score, the Caps didn’t “take issue” to even get a roughing minor.
by Cluster on Oct 27, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to my eyes being at the game, it was a pretty good response which included Ovechkin punching some guys in the mush.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For anyone interested, the Backes hit on Semin occurred with about 11:00 left in the 3rd. I hear nothing but crickets in the box score during that time.
by Cluster on Oct 27, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember seeing an Atlanta game last year where Bourque was sandwiched by two Thrashers, and Fehr went right over to the bench in his defense.
We don’t need an enforcer to “protect” the team, we need character guys like Bradley and Fehr (at least in that situation) to stick up for one another. Winning or losing fights doesn’t matter – it’s the team unity that counts.
When Hell freezes over, I'll play hockey there, too.
by Steck It Out on Oct 27, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
correction *their bench
When Hell freezes over, I'll play hockey there, too.
by Steck It Out on Oct 27, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember seeing an Atlanta game last year where Bourque was sandwiched by two Thrashers, and Fehr went right over to the bench in his defense.
Was it a dirty hit?
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not exactly, but I guess Fehr didn’t like that two bigger guys picked on the little guy (sorry, Chris)
When Hell freezes over, I'll play hockey there, too.
by Steck It Out on Oct 27, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Want to see a great example of team toughness? Here’s the picture:
But here’s the story – Voros runs Bourque, Steckel fights him. Voros gets out of the box and Bradley fights him for making Steckel fight him. It was a perfect example of team toughness.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In a game we were already winning.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the scoreboard in a regular season game shouldn’t impact one’s willingness to come to the defense of a teammate, should it?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
No it shouldn’t! But I argue that it DID against NYI. That’s all.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But if it did, the team’s head isn’t in the right place, either by nature or nurture.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yep. I’m happy with 2 points, though.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not the point. They run one of our skill guys, we make ‘em pay. That’s hockey, and if this team is going to anywhere, the other team has got to know that there’s a price to be paid for taking liberties.
Period.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
by fat_daddyo on Oct 27, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Then let’s bring up Sugden to skate 4 nights a minute.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not a one-person fix. It’s a mindset.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You said maybe we need to bring in “that element” at the top of your article.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read the rest of it. Go ahead, I’ll wait.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I did. Do we need one guy or mindset? Which is it? Hotseat!
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read the paragraph that starts, “So what’s the answer for this Capitals team?”
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Still think it was just situational inaction.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then let’s bring up Sugden to skate 4 nights a minute.
You’re not getting it. Mark Messier would sucker punch you in a heartbeat if you ran Gretzky. We need guys like Gordo, Brads, Stecks, Mo, Juice, etc to jump in and make the other team pay when they take liberties.
The Caps DON’T necessarily need someone who’s going to come on to drop the gloves.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
by fat_daddyo on Oct 27, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need guys like Gordo, Brads, Stecks, Mo, Juice, JEFF MUTHA-F-IN’ SCHULTZ!!!!, etc to jump in and make the other team pay when they take liberties.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha. Schultz engaged in possibly the most unwilling fight of all last season. Hysterical.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that was great.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok. But even if it could cost us a game?
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A regular season game? Yes, a hundred times yes.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just making sure.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What other teams run our guys every night and it costs us every game? What level of “toughness” are you comfortable with to sacrifice wins — every other game? 1 out of 3? At some point you have to focus on winning instead of worrying about being tough and watching a loss from the box or the locker room.
"Let the rest be scared of us." - Sasha Semin
by Scott in Shaw on Oct 27, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec for being another person making my point better than I can.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks. I’m leaning towards yours and G.O.D.’s side of this one.
"Let the rest be scared of us." - Sasha Semin
by Scott in Shaw on Oct 27, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to be clear — all I’ve been saying here was that I didn’t think this particular play was the time or place for instant retaliation.
I think the response needs to be calibrated to the act. The key question is intent, and I didn’t see the intent here. But if someone does come after your guy with intent, you absolutely must respond.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 27, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aren’t you an IP guy? Infringement is strict liability right? Punish them hard!
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think that his point really, I think he agrees in that we should make them pay, but for some reason or another (the guys we have don’t want to, or BB doesn’t want it to happen or whatnot) it doesn’t happen. And if it’s not happening, at least we’re getting the two points.
by Vinn on Oct 27, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Voros runs Bourque, Steckel fights him. Voros gets out of the box and Bradley fights him for making Steckel fight him.
forgive me, but huh? Voros run Bourque. Steckel fights Voros. And while I thoroughly enjoyed the fight and the resulting picture, why did Bradley need to fight Voros after Steckel did?
by RedBirdie on Oct 27, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because Steckel isn’t a fighter. Steckel stood up for his guy, who Voros ran because he knew there was no one on the ice to make him pay. So Brads made him pay.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaaha. He sure did. Voros got blood all over his hand!
I agree with your entire point on this but I just laugh at the idea that Brads is a fighter.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right. He isn’t. But he’s willing to do his best to hold opponents accountable, which is more than you can say for a lot of his teammates (granted, it’s part of his job to and not necessarily part of theirs, but you know what I mean).
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just letting them know, we noticed what you did. We didn’t like it. Do it again, and you’re going to have to run the risk of losing a tooth.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
by fat_daddyo on Oct 27, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We do need an enforcer, someone trained in the pugilistic arts, on-ice. I worry about it, every game. It’s no good calling on all the lads to take it up without training — that’s a specialty of the few, the proud, the GOONS. We need one, younger than Brash, preferably one that can skate, pass and shoot as well, but that might be asking too much. I hate to see any of our boys get hurt. It seems terribly risky, to rely on an opponent’s fear of suffering a power play goal as the main deterrent. Especially if they think they have a good PK and can get away with it. There’s no way to take the violence out of hockey — no matter how much “they” say the game has changed, some things never change.
by FlyingCloud on Oct 27, 2009 2:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A guy that can skate, pass and shoot as well isn’t a goon.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A guy that can skate, pass and shoot as well isn’t a goon.
Like the guy who did this…
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Oct 27, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yikes. Who the hell is that?
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
by fat_daddyo on Oct 27, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is Lou Fontinato. The player who painted that canvas was Gordie Howe.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Oct 27, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When Clark fought Clarkson against the Devils a few weeks back I remember more than a few posters questioned the wisdom being that we were up 2-0 and the Caps had nothing to gain from it; I think JP even advocated letting the liberties go and letting the Devils take a bad penalty instead. It’s a fine line, obviously. Not trying to call you out JP, but I think a lot of this argument has to do with how effective our PP is. Back during the Devils game it was humming, so we’d prefer the PP and a (likely) goal. Now that it’s sputtering, we’d like to stick up for our teammates.
by treat on Oct 27, 2009 3:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I thought that was a bad fight then and I still feel that way. I think there’s a difference between a few love taps to the back of Milan Jurcina’s legs and a knee-on-knee to Mike Green.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hence the fine line. Clark obviously disagreed with you. If he was on the ice for that play, I’m pretty sure he would have done the same thing. Alas, the Rooster is no Clark.
by treat on Oct 27, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
30 years ago, if you ran a star you didn’t necessarily have a fight on your hands, but someone was going to cross check you in the face. As noted above, Chris Simon got run out of the league for that sort of behavior. But in the absence of the sideshow goon, that’s the sort of response that’s needed. Who’s going to do that on this team? Bradley? Gordon? Stecks? Clark?
Doubt any of those guys wants to pay a big fine and miss a few games without pay.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
by fat_daddyo on Oct 27, 2009 3:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Or spoil their reputation as respectable NHL players.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right. B/c nothing tarnishes a reputation quicker than sticking up for a teammate.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
By cross checking someone in the mouth as fat_daddyo just suggested?
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guarantee you that the current pros heard the same thing from their dads that I heard from mine: if that guy keeps slashing you, butt end him in the gut/get that elbow into his teeth/slam his face into the glass and he’ll quit. They know what the game requires. They just don’t want to give up the pile of cash that comes along with doing it, and I probably wouldn’t either.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
by fat_daddyo on Oct 27, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hockey is so fast, the players could be uncertain whether or not the play is clean or dirty.
by red army line on Oct 27, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty good point. This might be why lots of guys get jumped after making clean hits.
This post in no way comments on any of the recent questionable hits
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think JordanDC is responding to each comment on its own rather than examining the points raised in the post, and then approaching the subject from a considered point of view.
by TylerG on Oct 27, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re wrong.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1) Just playing devil’s advocate here. Would it still be a positive if a Cap player(s) sticks up for a team mate by instigating a fight and then proceeds to get the ever loving snot beat out of him? Not sure how that enhances the teams’ toughness?
2) Its great to stick up for one another, but you have to have the ability to walk the walk (fight the fight) for it to be effective, no?
I find sometimes it's easy to be myself
sometimes I find it's better to be somebody else
by Fauxrumors on Oct 27, 2009 3:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
1) Yes
2) No
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A few years ago, Brenden Shanahan took exception to Brashear focusing a lot of attention on Jagr.
Clearly not in Brashear’s league, Shanahan nonetheless challenged him to a fight to stick up for his teammate. As might be expected, he lost, but I have to think it sent a message to his own team and Brashear.
by Stormblue on Oct 27, 2009 3:14 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
That is a great example, and even now (2-3 years later) people still talk about that fight.
by Cluster on Oct 27, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s another great one: Caps vs Atlanta from 2006.
In this one – its just the ATTEMPT by Atlanta to knock out Green with the game in hand that starts it off.
Granted the ensuing fights get a bit ridiculous, but the message is clear.
by Stormblue on Oct 27, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Andy Sutton is one of the dirtier players in the league who doesn’t get called on it enough.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So accurate. I really hate that guy. I’d love to see him and Garnett Exelby be thrown into Thunderdome. Winner gets a bullet. Two men enter, no men leave.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep. Hanlon, of course, not Bruce. And perhaps therein lies part of the rub.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m happy with 100+ point seasons.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The two are not mutually exclusive, for one.
For two, if you’re going to rely on “team toughness” rather than one designated enforcer, you’ve actually got to exhibit some toughness, or it’s going to be a long, long season.
The Flyers are a dirty team; they’ll try and run the Caps tonight. Hopefully the Caps show some spleen and stick up for themselves and each other.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
by fat_daddyo on Oct 27, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They will against the Flyers. It’s situational.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For three (or two-A), 100+ point seasons are easier when your star players are in the lineup for most of the games.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just saying I don’t want to see Hanlon again any time soon.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one does, but it’s not the point.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s all I was saying.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does your position on Hanlon have to do with the post? I mean, no one here (or anywhere) was advocating bringing back Glen Hanlon.
by TylerG on Oct 27, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Calm down, Francis.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just making a humorous note to try and calm everyone down in this thread. Yes, we all disagree on the “team toughness” issue, but at least we can agree on Hanlon, amirite?
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever one might say about Hanlon as a coach, he could not abide the current state of inaction.
by Stephen Pepper on Oct 27, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was there. It was epic. I’ll never forget it. And unfortunately for the Caps, Rangers fans won’t soon forget that point of the game either.
by Stephen Pepper on Oct 27, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Further to the discussion, M. le Pronger is interviewed in today’s NHL.com:
Before the start of the regular season, newly acquired Flyers defenseman Chris Pronger was asked if there was a message he’d like to send to Eastern Conference opponents like Alex Ovechkin, Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin.
“I think you know the answer to that,” Pronger said with a menacing grin. “We don’t want to premeditate anything, now do we?”
Tonight in Washington, Pronger goes against Ovechkin as the Flyers take on the Capitals.
Suspended eight times in his 15-year career, Pronger seems keenly aware of what his new team expects of him.
“To make sure teams understand whose net it is in front of our goal,” he said.
IS PAЯTY NOW
by Your Nation's Capital on Oct 27, 2009 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
to me, Pronger is a dirty piece of shit who gives hockey a bad name.
by RedBirdie on Oct 27, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you read this thread? Lotta posters calling for blood around here.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s hogwash. No one is calling for blood. People are advocating for sticking up for teammates and for playing hockey in a manner that discourages opponents from running their teammates.
To conflate that with bloodlust is either willfully misleading or it’s indicative of a lack of thoughtfulness.
by TylerG on Oct 27, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t get behind people calling for crosschecks to the face, sorry. I’ve played hockey my whole life and it’s usually not a good idea to try to out-dirty the other team.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you quote for me where someone advocated such?
by TylerG on Oct 27, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.japersrink.com/2009/10/27/1102156/time-to-walk-the-walk-on-team#23445968
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that the appreciation of metaphor is a valuable thing.
by TylerG on Oct 27, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s talking about Simon and then talking about a shot to the head. I don’t think it’s metaphor. At this point I don’t give a fuck, though.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s be friends.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All anyone is advocating is that the Caps, as a team, maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical — maybe be more of a prick out there.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Fair enough. I just don’t want to see our boys suspended for OVER-reacting. And I just don’t agree that it’s always a good idea to give up a win for the purpose of sending a message. THAT’S ALL.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Had some teeth knocked out by a guy who thought I was pinning him against the boards too hard. Maybe I’m too close to this situation.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And there are those who think that an isolated over-reaction or two will have a net positive impact on win totals. More importantly, it is character defining for when such things really matter.
Regular. Season. Means. Dick.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don’t agree, but that’s cool.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glad we’re in a position to not have to worry about the regular season, though.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are things that matter – habits, trends, etc. One or two wins or losses? Not so much.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There are things that matter – habits, trends, etc. One or two wins or losses? Not so much.
Spoken like a fan of a presumptive 1-2 seed… it’s nice aint it. (tell that to 2007-2008 capitals)
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 27, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would LOVE to have Pronger on the Caps (sans new contract of course)
by Cluster on Oct 27, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
When Hell freezes over, I'll play hockey there, too.
by Steck It Out on Oct 27, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, there are certain people who I find deeply reprehensible and never want to see in caps Red. Chris Pronger tops that list.
by RedBirdie on Oct 27, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boy, is that scary. But of course we all know that the Flyers didn’t pick Pronger up to beat people up and break their skulls…right? These Flyers?
Nice, unbiased piece of reporting by NHL.com, by the way. “Menacing grin”? What the hell are they playing at?
by Becca H on Oct 27, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who does this league fear?
I have my doubts as to whether any of this toughness, whether it’s team or individual, has any real impact on how opponents play…
My feeling is that regardless of whether you’re playing Calgary, a team I would consider to great “team toughness” or the Rangers with Brashear (or insert younger, more menacing threat here), teams and players are rarely (if ever) truly going to play differently. If anything, you play one of these teams it just means your fighters are likely to have to earn their pay that night, but the guys you instigate trouble aren’t (in my book) likely to play any differently. If you are both an instigator and a fighter you almost going to play MORE physical knowing the other team has a dance-card players on it because that’s the code you live by… a fight for playing physical (if a little dirty) is a badge of honor.
Thus, I don’t see the deterrent… but I’m curious which teams you all think intimidate opponents and why?
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 27, 2009 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think teams absolutely play teams like Philly, Toronto, and Anaheim differently than they play teams lacking in team toughness. It’s very hard for me to believe otherwise, because it just seems contrary to human nature.
There’s only so much you can do about guys like Brashear or Orr, who are willing to cross that line from time to time and don’t back down from anyone; that’s just the way it is. But the fact that you can’t be physical enough to deter everyone doesn’t mean you can’t be physical enough to determine anyone.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get that, but it seems overly simplistic and in the energy of the game I feel like the things that matter to the safety of your teammates (i.e. the whole reason for being tough) don’t happen because of premeditation or intent, but happenstance and that team toughness doesn’t help. Wouldn’t that tend to mean that tougher teams have fewer injuries? (anybody ever check that?) I would bet tougher teams get into more physical altercations and more rowdy games and perhaps have a higher injury rate.
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 27, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get that, but it seems overly simplistic and in the energy of the game I feel like the things that matter to the safety of your teammates (i.e. the whole reason for being tough) don’t happen because of premeditation or intent, but happenstance and that team toughness doesn’t help.
I disagree. If you’re playing a tough team you’re more likely to keep your stick and elbows down, your knees to yourself, and your body out of the crease.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, it’s hard to argue with that, but my own history leads me to think that while in theory that should work it doesn’t. I’ve played some of my roughest games against the league bad-boys… knowing I was in for a fight from the opening face-off. Meaning, I came in LOOKING for a fight…
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 27, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Injuries is not a good proxy because they happen in so many different ways. You’d have to just look at injuries from cheap shots but even that is misleading because most cheap shots don’t result in injuries.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
I actually planned to research this but I couldn’t think of how to measure physicality against. The best I could come up with was some combination of major penalties against and physical fouls, and that didn’t satisfy me.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, just because there is or is not a PIM is not dispositive. It seems like you’d have to watch every game and code it for cheap shots, which is way too labor intensive.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was about to link to a man-games lost for last year, but it’s worthless (for many reason), even as a loose guide. You are correct, there currently really is no good way to quantify this issue.
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 27, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding how hard it is to quantify this issue: I think that’s an interesting and important point. When a friend and I were discussing this issue last night, I poked around trying to figure out how to quantify toughness: Faceoff wins? Kinda, but not really. Percentage of draws taken in various zones? No. Fighting majors? No, because one Boogard does not make an entire team tough. There are no stats on puck battles won along the boards, runs not taken at stars, etc.
I’m as big a stat/data-head as anyone, but I’d certainly have to concede that this is absolutely a what-my-eyes-tell me topic.
by TylerG on Oct 27, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watch tonight’s game against the big bad Flyers. Pay attention to the level of respect with which the Orange and Black treat the Caps’ skill players.
Notwithstanding the 2-1 victory we had over PHI last year when Brash was out, this line worries me. Against FLA the Flyers were brutally aggressive, and I’m not just talking about the Booth hit. There were several guys that got run and beaten on all game and FLA never responded. These Flyers really look like a team that is going to push and push until you push back, and I’m not sure that these Caps will push back.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 3:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thats the most worrisome thing that has been said. Because it isn’t a toughness issue at that point, its a character issue.
"I think the relentless negative coverage in The Washington Post is a real difference from previous years," Redskins general counsel David Donovan said. "But in terms of the way our actual fans are behaving, we don't see any difference."
by Sct112 on Oct 27, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting… perhaps those two in the end are simply synonyms.
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 27, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps I could have been clearer, but this is exactly my point – it’s a willingness to react.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it? Or, playing devil’s advocate here – is it more that they’re afraid to react because of the consequences of reacting (i.negating a power play opportunity, etc.)?
by Vinn on Oct 27, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s situational. I would wager they would beat the fuck out of a Flyer if he made the same play.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sooner or later, they’re going to have to make that step. And perhaps as important, the role players they have are going to have to step it up in both facets too.
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Oct 27, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Could this be the most convincing argument against regularly using the SOB line? Right now I’m really liking Laich on that top line with AO and Baxter.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 3:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No, I think those guys would definitely stand up for one another. Ovie would knock a guy’s head off if they screwed with Backstrom or Semin. Nicky mixes it up more than he’s given credit for, and Semin can be fiery if he feels like it.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Semin can be firey when the need to play the bongos is too strong to resist.
by RedBirdie on Oct 27, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i hope he plays the drum beat to Metallica’s – One on someone tonight. Dual bass drum shredding to the face.
by ns on Oct 27, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When Hell freezes over, I'll play hockey there, too.
by Steck It Out on Oct 27, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still makes me laugh.
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 27, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fonzie, what are you doing with those skis?
"I'm just doing karate and trying to get females pregnant."
by Bald Pollack on Oct 27, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was just a setup for this link I’ve been waiting a week to post, but sure, whatever works
:)
by Icebat on Oct 27, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody bothers me!
When Hell freezes over, I'll play hockey there, too.
by Steck It Out on Oct 27, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly! I would’ve figured more early 80’s suburbanite Caps fans…
by Icebat on Oct 27, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brent Johnson?
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Peeing on the opposition?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Calvin and a Chevy logo?
"I think the relentless negative coverage in The Washington Post is a real difference from previous years," Redskins general counsel David Donovan said. "But in terms of the way our actual fans are behaving, we don't see any difference."
by Sct112 on Oct 27, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rec’d for potty humor! (When I stop laughing at potty humor… kill me.)
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 27, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Peeing on the opposition?
honestly, nothing Pronger does would surprise me anymore. After all, he’s hardly domesticated.
by RedBirdie on Oct 27, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Team toughness exemplified:
http://www.downgoesbrown.com/2008/11/clark-mcsorley.html
(Coincidentally, also involving a captain by the name of Clark wearing #17)
by Kerry Fraser's Hairspray on Oct 27, 2009 3:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Love it. “And Clark is nailing McSorley!” DGB rocks.
by cuqui on Oct 27, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watch tonight’s game against the big bad Flyers.
I wish I could but I’ve got DirecTV. Tell me how it turns out.
by b.orr4 on Oct 27, 2009 3:51 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ouch.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have DirecTV support group going. You have to find a network, of CCF (Caps Cable Friends) and hunker down with them.
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 27, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With all respect, JP, I think you’ve slotted that situation in the Isles game a little to easily into a narrative you had already framed. First, the play in question happened on a power play. I think it’s tough to ask guys to shift from power play mode to retribution instantly. The players on the ice at the time did all react (albeit maybe a hair slow), but the refs did a good job of breaking it up before anything more started.
But I think the game situation is more important. 1-0, and things were already starting to turn in the Caps’ favor. We all know how that game ended. This line from the original writeup above stands out:
We noted earlier in the season (against tonight’s opponent, no less) how Green in particular has gotten seemingly rattled when physically targeted during a game,
As we all know, the opposite happened in this case — Green was as much a part of the comeback as anyone.
And the most important factor is this: I don’t think that knee on knee collision was intentional. It was Ovechkin-on-Peverly dirty, not Ruutu-on-Tucker dirty. The defender was trying to hard to make a play and got out of control. He stuck his leg out because of desperation, not a real intent to injure.
I think it would have been a different story if the Caps were ahead or if there were any reason to believe it really was intentional. But does anyone really believe that someone goes after the knee of a powerplay point man on purpose? The result was a 5-on-3.
I think everyone on the ice realized that Green wasn’t being targeted. Quite the opposite — Green’s athleticism allowed him to make a sick move that took the guy out of position. The result was stupid and unfortunate and illegal, but I don’t think it was intentional and I don’t think it’s a particularly good example of the legitimate issue you raise above.
I too will be interested to see how the team reacts when a star player really is targeted. I’m just not convinced that’s what happened against the Isles.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 27, 2009 3:57 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I agree with your assessment of Thompson’s play and motives, but I will say this: there’s value to deterring recklessness (in addition to intent to injure) on the part of the opponents.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree wholeheartedly, but it’s situational. I don’t think you ever risk the 5-on-3 (or risk putting it to 4-on-4 if the ref gets it wrong). Put a giant bullseye on that guy’s back for later in the game (or later in the season), but don’t retaliate at that moment. Take the man advantage and try to make them pay with a goal.
Instant massive retaliation is, to me, something you do when the guy really is being targeted. I’ve almost never seen a penalty killer target a star in a way that deserves instant massive retaliation. That kind of shit usually goes down even strength.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 27, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair point, though while I can’t speak for J.P., I would have been happy to see the Caps later in the game.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At that point they were coming back from a 2 goal deficit to win the game. I’m not at all sure I would have been happy to see it then.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 27, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fucking REC’d and thank you for stating my case with a greater degree of clarity than I can muster whilst at work.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair points, but I just can’t get on board with deciding whether or not to stick up for a teammate in Game 10 of the season based on what the scoreboard says.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess the question is what you’re sticking up for. If I’m right and this was closer to an accident than to targeting, then I’m not sure much more was called for. Save it for the real cheap shots.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 27, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear you. I think I would rather my team err on the side of taking everyone to task for marginal hits and be over-inclusively bad-ass than let some offenders slip through unpunished. In my opinion, a team that is selectively tough simply isn’t.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(In the regular season. In most cases in the post-season I think you have to take the PP and try to score. You’ll see them again in a day or two so you have another chance to exact some retribution.)
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely. I should’ve made that distinction. (And I think the regular season over-inclusivity lessens the need for such actions in the post-season.)
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, exactly. Intimidation wins hockey games. Keeping your opponent on edge at all times.
by Stephen Pepper on Oct 27, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also further to the discussion of overall toughness
Read this. It’ll take a while. And note in the picture who was there on the front lines offering assistance.
IS PAЯTY NOW
by Your Nation's Capital on Oct 27, 2009 4:07 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Steve Downie is a stain. Not saying anything was done on purpose.. his name just makes me upset.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like a few of the commenters, I had no idea of how much Dapuzzo has suffered. This brought tears to my eyes.
Perspective, regained.
by Stephen Pepper on Oct 27, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is it I had never heard that story, at all.
a) no bones about it, this made me cry… but it’s great to hear such a strong will and positive outlook.
b) I am going to have a serious talk to my teammates who don’t wear some kind of facial protection.
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 27, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why the hell is this not yet green? That is a hell of a story.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 27, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s super green. Crystal Green.
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 29, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with taking the Thompson/Green incident as an example is that it was isolated in what was otherwise a fairly clean and non-physical game. Let’s not make Thompson’s actions out to be some gruesome and flagrant attempt to hurt Mike Green, because that wasn’t the case, and the measured response from the Caps is exactly what was appropriate given all the circumstances.
The teams “toughness” in the regard you are discussing has yet to be determined because events have not required that it be shown. Give me a Booth/Richards event, and then we’ll see.
by jpbryant on Oct 27, 2009 4:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There’s value to deterring reckless play as well as malicious play.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A solid thumping would be very instructional, yes.
IS PAЯTY NOW
by Your Nation's Capital on Oct 27, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You want to wait for Booth/Richards to see if the Caps are tough? I think my point is that if you wait until then, it’s too late.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
And maybe if the Panthers had done something when Kulikov, Moore, and whoever else were hurt the Flyers never get to the point of the Richards on Booth hit.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I absolutely agree. But the Green hit wasn’t nearly as bad as the Kulikov or Moore hit. Lets stop making the Thompson hit out to be the worst thing we’ve seen in ages. I doesn’t even make the top 10 from this past weekend.
by jpbryant on Oct 27, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, you really like putting words in other people’s mouths, don’t you? No one’s making the Thompson hit out to be more than it was.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I apologize. I Interpreted the comment as comparing the Kulikov and Moore hits to the Green hit, with were both pretty vicious.
by jpbryant on Oct 27, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still haven’t seen the Kulikov or Moore hits because they didn’t generate the youtube buzz of the Richards hit and I was watching the Caps game live.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets stop making the Thompson hit out to be the worst thing we’ve seen in ages.
I don’t think anyone’s doing that; no one’s saying “Man, that his was absolutely brutal! How could no one do anything!”
I doesn’t even make the top 10 from this past weekend.
But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a questionable hit that deserved a response.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps waiting till then is too late, but asking for it after the Thompson knee is asking for it way too soon.
Seriously the Caps are damned if they do damned if they don’t. They lose that game to the Islanders because they take a retaliation penalty, and instead of reading about how they aren’t tough enough, we’re reading about how they aren’t smart enough, and how dumb penalties are killing them. We’re spending three days reading about how they lost to one of the worst teams in the league.
There’s a time and place for being tough. On the Isle in October while down by two goals is neither.
by jpbryant on Oct 27, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree. I think if they retaliate we’re reading about how crappy their effort was, not about how dumb they are for sticking up for a teammate and evening up the sides.
There’s a time and place for being tough. On the Isle in October while down by two goals is neither.
See, I couldn’t disagree more – I think it’s both.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I can’t see how someone starting a fight in this situation is going to stop Richards from taking a run at Ovechkin in April.
by jpbryant on Oct 27, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is going to stop Richards from taking a run at Ovechkin in April?
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that the knowledge that he or, perhaps more importantly, one of his teammates might have to answer the bell for it might make him stop, and that knowledge comes from a team earning a reputation for such.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree, but I think at a certain point we have to be realistic about who the Caps are. And I think there are plenty of teams that would love to compare toughness against toughness with the Caps every night instead of skill against skill.
In my opinion, that’s a fight we’re going to lose both literally and figuratively. Do I want us to be tough(er)? Absolutely. Do I think the Caps are capable of developing the kind of reputation that other teams worry about? Not really.
by jpbryant on Oct 27, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That’s a fair point and I agree the Caps won’t ever be Toronto, Philly or Anaheim, but even if it’s not to that extreme a degree they can still make it known they won’t allow questionable hits on their guys.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playoff seeding that is just so.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is going to stop Richards from taking a run at Ovechkin in April?
Ovechkin avoiding it.
Ovechkin standing up for himself.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 27, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(this comment is specific to the Ovechkin-Richards relationship)
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 27, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
K_C called it out during the game. When Richards went at AO head on he didn’t come out on top of that battle. I’ll also always love AO flattening Richards in the final seconds of G1 v. PHI. Amazing.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, there’s value in deterring reckless play. If someone wants to pull a Colton Orr and cross-check Ovechkin in the face, it might not stop them. But in the meantime it has the potential to keep other players from getting elbows up or knees out against Ovechkin and other Caps.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I hear what you’re saying. I’m just not sure that anyone is going to take notice of Brads getting his face beat in once again and saying “You know, I just don’t want any part of that Brads fella.”
by jpbryant on Oct 27, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are a lot of guys in the NHL a lot less adept at fighting than Bradley, and there are a lot of guys on the Caps other than Bradley who can fight, though.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think anything is going to stop the Flyers from being chippy. They fight chippy with chippy.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think the post was about stopping chippy. In fact, I’m sure it wasn’t.
by TylerG on Oct 27, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
‘Chippy’ is not the same as ‘running guys with the intent to intimidate and possibly injure.’ Not close.
by TylerG on Oct 27, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, allow me to rephrase.
I don’t think running guys will stop the Flyers from running guys. They fight running guys with running guys. OR I don’t think standing up to the Flyers for running guys will stop the Flyers from running guys. They respond to physical play and grit with physical play, grit, and cheapshots.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one — no one — here is suggesting that WSH should be running guys on other teams.
by TylerG on Oct 27, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other teams might chill out, but I don’t think the shitty Flyers will.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, but chippy is getting progressively more violent and dirty; trying to tow the line and even push the line further. When games get chippy in youth leagues and men’s leagues you look for the ref to take control of the game. In the NHL, Juniors, and minor-pro leagues the players take on part of the responsibility of deterring chippy play. What starts as chippy quickly evolves into dirty.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a time and place for being tough. On the Isle in October while down by two goals is neither.
I disagree. I think after a questionable hit on one of your best players in an all-but-meaningless game in October is the time and the place.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think the right questionable hit is the time and place. I just don’t think this was the one.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 27, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then, when Ovie starts running around, you get guys like Don f’ing Cherry saying it’s gonna catch up to him one day, he’ll get “cut in half.”
by S h a g g y on Oct 27, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they had lost that game it would have been because they played like crap for most of the game; not because they retaliated when Green took a knee on knee. This wasn’t a tightly contested game between even teams. This was the Caps rolling over against another cupcake opponent.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
But they persevered and pulled one out! Fuck yeah!
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was the Caps rolling over against another cupcake opponent.
I don’t know if I agree with this. It looked like it took a while for us to figure out how to handle the 1-4 and the Isles played a darn fine road game, at home.
from the house that Red Jesus built
by bigonetimer on Oct 27, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I meant rolling over as in lying on their backs. Not rolling over as in steamrolled. Fact is the Caps didn’t come with their best effort and I think it’s fair to infer that it was because they didn’t take them as seriously as they should have. It’s become a pretty regular trend since last year.
Totally agree that the Isles played a fine road game, at home. I actually had that same thought during the game.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec’d for the proper use of “infer”…
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
by fat_daddyo on Oct 27, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The real issue is "Where does said enforcer play?"
I mean, he has to take someone’s spot on the 4th line, right? And a roster spot?
Chicago has the same problem – all their tough guys except for Twenty Cent are gone.
Who do you scratch? Boyd and his FO prowess? Stecks and his PK? Brads for shootouts?
I guess the enforcer is cheap insurance – and there are plenty out there who would come cheap.
by S h a g g y on Oct 27, 2009 4:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They’re saying they don’t want an enforcer, but rather everyone should be expected to fight.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn’t have to be an issue if the guys who are already on the team just start responding a little more when the situation calls for it.
by David M. Getz on Oct 27, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Somebody messes wit me, l’m gonna mess wit him. Somebody steals from me, l’m gonna say ‘you stole’, not talk to him for spittin’ on the sidewalk. You unnerstand? Now, l have done nothing to hurt dese people. But dere angered at me. So what do dey do? Doctor up some income tax, for which dey got no case, to annoy me. To speak to me like men? No. To harass a peaceful man. l pray to God dat if l ever have a grievance, l would have just a little more self respect. l’ll tell you one more ting. ln an all-out prize fight, when one guy’s left standing, dat’s how you know who won.
If you've read this far...seek help.
by ThePeerless on Oct 27, 2009 4:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
“Christ – is, is that Capone skating on the Flyers’ 4th line? And where’d he get that goddamn bat?”
by S h a g g y on Oct 27, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That’s the Chicago way!
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
by fat_daddyo on Oct 27, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aren’t he Caps the 2nd biggest team in the league, or something close? Clearly, it aint the size of the dog in the fight. Philly has Cote, Laperriere and that fu—ing maniac Carcillo, not to mention Pronger.
The Caps want enforcement by committee, but it’s not their “compass”, they arent guided by vigilantism. Guys like Cote and Carcillo, on the other hand, are.
I have a feeling that when Nyls is gone, the priority deadline deal will be another top 4 D and a tough guy.
by S h a g g y on Oct 27, 2009 4:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good talk, Rusty.
I’m off to the game. Remember me fondly.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 27, 2009 4:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s not at Wachovia Center, don’t worry.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll take good care of the blog, JP!
Okay – JP’s gone. Who wants post the first hockey porn Fanshot on the Rink?
by S h a g g y on Oct 27, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he can get a decent signal! Sometimes hard to come by.
Maybe play with an edge, be a little more physical -- maybe be more of a prick out there.
by jordanDC on Oct 27, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He sits with all the l33t folk in the lower bowl. Only us proles in steerage get signal. Go figger.
IS PAЯTY NOW
by Your Nation's Capital on Oct 27, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coverage sucks equally in the lower bowl.
"Let the rest be scared of us." - Sasha Semin
by Scott in Shaw on Oct 27, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somebody tell CapsChick to show us her tits…
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
by fat_daddyo on Oct 27, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow, not even 24 hours on the staff before such disrespect. de-rec’d
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 27, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“it makes everyone else wonders”
Poster FAIL!
"Let the rest be scared of us." - Sasha Semin
by Scott in Shaw on Oct 28, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't cheap shot a Young Gun...
…the Islanders cheap shotted a Young Gun once. Once.
If only it were true.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 27, 2009 5:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Nice JD reference… you fargin-ice-hole.
God kills a kitten every time Sidney whines.
by Chris meet Alex on Oct 27, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree we’re not a tough team fighting wise, but personally I’d much rather see Green score an amazing goal and set up the game winning goal in overtime than see our toughest player fight their toughest player. I know it doesn’t score you any testosterone points, but I’d much rather see our team win with skill and scoring than fights and fists. Had we put our tails between our legs after that and let the opposition beat up on our team my answer would be completely different, but instead it lit a fire under the team, and we might even owe our win to that one play. Personally as much as I love fights I want wins on NHL.com, instead hockeyfights.com
by DC FURY on Oct 27, 2009 7:39 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree we’re not a tough team fighting wise, but personally I’d much rather see Green score an amazing goal and set up the game winning goal in overtime than see our toughest player fight their toughest player.
…but I don’t think anyone’s suggesting the Capitals get a sideshow enforcer.
by David M. Getz on Oct 28, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Relevant to this discussion — my highlight of the night was Backstrom’s reaction to being put in a bullshit headlock by Mike Richards. First, because Backstrom was pounding the net and paying the price. And second because he took no shit from Mike Richards. That headlock was like playground crap. Something a child would do. And Backstrom stood up for himself.
I think this is an underrated part of team toughness. The guy who is messed with needs to be the first to stand up for himself. I’m liking what I see from Backstrom more and more every day.
I didn’t get to see all of the game tonight, but I didn’t think the team was lacking in toughness or in appropriate responses to the Flyers pulling bullshit.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 27, 2009 10:32 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed on all counts, though it’s worth noting (and Corey did) that it "Kind of looks like the #Caps are falling into the “We need to prove to the #Flyers that we are as tough as them” trap right now."
I’d have phrased it more positively, but the point is that the Caps stepped up physically. I’d just like it to be a bit more proactive and consistent.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 28, 2009 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me go even farther and suggest that today’s Flyers game represents the model for the Caps’ style of team toughness. The stars get pushed around a little. Then they get mad and embarrass the opposition. Ovechkin did it in Montreal by scoring 4 goals after they broke his nose. And we’ve seen it plenty of other times.
If the Caps wilted when they were pushed, I’d be really worried. Instead, the last two games saw them come back from two-goal deficits in part because they got mad. That’s the kind of thing the league has to start noticing. If you outwork the Caps but with respect, they may never wake up and you’ll win. But lay a dirty hit, and you’re likely to see a couple hit the back of your net.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 27, 2009 11:50 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Let me go even farther and suggest that today’s Flyers game represents the model for the Caps’ style of team toughness. The stars get pushed around a little. Then they get mad and embarrass the opposition. … [L]ay a dirty hit, and you’re likely to see a couple hit the back of your net.
The problem here is that it assumes that the star gets up. I’m not just talking about a little chippiness.
Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world
by J.P. on Oct 28, 2009 7:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Washington
|
22 | 13 | 5 | 4 | 30 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
19 | 8 | 4 | 7 | 23 |
|
Atlanta
|
18 | 10 | 6 | 2 | 22 |
|
Florida
|
20 | 9 | 9 | 2 | 20 |
|
Carolina
|
21 | 4 | 12 | 5 | 13 |
(updated 11.21.2009 at 8:36 AM EST)
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
